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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- Let's talk Pern, in all its problematic glory. #booktubesff
This is an overview of three tightly linked books, so MILD SPOILER warning for the end of Dragonflight at 3:13 (for about 40 seconds). Because what happens then affects everything else in the series...
This is lengthy, so here's a table of contents:
00:00 Introduction
01:10 Plot Synopses
(3:13-3:52 mild spoilers)
05:17 Flaws ("Problematic Sexual Politics")
08:43 Strengths ("Nostalgia!")
11:49 Conclusion
Harper Hall Trilogy overview: • Harper Hall Trilogy (a...
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Dragonriders of Pen was THE series that got me into modern fantasy (I loved the Middle Earth and the Narnia series as a younger kid, but I remember reading Dragonflight at 12 when my sister had taken me to her friend's house and I saw it sitting on a table and was intrigued because of the cover. At that age a large part of the sex and gender issues flew over my head because I was too enchanted with the whole impressing and having your very own dragon concept. Growing up and re-reading them the problems become apparent, and in fact Mccaffrey DID get called out later over what she said in an interview when asked what would happen if a straight man Impressed a green (given the implication in the early books that the majority of green/blue riders are gay men since for a long time girls weren't allowed to be candidates for green dragonets)., given what happens during mating flights. She pretty much said even if a straight man DID impress a green during that first mating flight the act of being the receptive partner (which in itself was a problematic idea...that the man riding the female dragon would automatically be the 'submissive' partner in that situation) in a gay sexual encounter would MAKE him gay to 'fit'. >_>;; And of course the whole 'the dragon decides, the rider complies/rape during mating flights...which still happens even in the later books . F'lessan's girlfriend Tai is pretty much explicitly stated to have been raped pretty much every time her green mated which is why she developed such a fear and hatred of when a flight was imminent. It also rubbed me the wrong way the concept that women can ONLY impress female dragons (whereas with the exceptions of queens men can impress male and female dragons), the whole concept of Impression is that when it hatches a dragon chooses the person whose personality is most compatible with theirs...why couldn't there be a blue/brown/bronze dragonet compatible with a girl candidate? Or the reverse, a boy whose personality perfectly matches a baby queen? The idea that queens are drawn to strong-willed but maternal people (as if a man CAN'T be both strong-willed and loving/paternal? ) and bronzes are drawn by strong-willed leader types (so a girl can't be a strong leader/fighter? ). I know in the modern books written by her son there's at least one case of a girl impressing a blue (FINALLY), but Anne herself only once said that it could be 'possible' for a lesbian/bisexual (no mention of a straight woman) girl to impress a blue (or MAYBE a brown), but it would be rare, and she never alluded to the possibility of a girl impressing a bronze, which frankly I think is BS...someone's genitals has no bearing on how strong a person they are or if their personality would be compatible for a particular dragonet. But then growing up my personal Pern fantasy was that I'd be a bronze rider (none of that queenrider/weyrwoman melodrama or green dragon floozy for me XD ). I even was dorky enough to name 'my' dragon...Luminath.
If I made the rules for impression girls would get girls boys would get boys but the fire lizard impression are good already I just wouldn't want to have sex with a man but I love the concept of impressions. I wouldn't want to rape anyone either
Big upvote for naming your own dragon! Hoi-Polloi's Tillith certainly agrees...
Plot clue : the thread falling out of pattern in Dragonquest is a result of the bombing schedule AVIS sends the dragon riders into later in the future books.
You have to remember that Pern is a medieval society, thus defining the roles of men and women in such a society. It's not just Anne who wrote her stories in such a setting. Even today, authors use a medieval setting for their fantasy stories, complete with stereotypical roles. That's the way medieval societies worked. Would you fault those authors for the accuracy of their settings based on your modern conceptions?
At least Anne started to have women "step out" of their traditional roles, first with the rebellious nature of Lessa, then Melody, and then even Mirrim to some small measure. And as was the case in old medieval societies, strong women still found a way of making their presence felt, such as in the case of the Headwoman of the Harper Hall, who bosses around the predominantly male population of the Hall, including Master Robinton, and no one challenges her right to do so except in token defiance.
So please reevaluate your opinion to include these factors into your modern Earth-biased thinking.
I first read the books when I was very young, about 8 or so, and I loved the books, the characters, and the world. I honestly didn't see any of the sexism that was in the books that I could now. I didn't mind the sexism in the first book because of two things: 1. That was the culture of the world. It was consistently done and 2. that it was recognized as wrong within the world and characters actively tried to change it throughout the series. I would be more upset it the books tried to make such behavior into a good thing and actively praised it.
I should say that I also read the books completely out of order as a child. I grabbed one, read it, and moved on to the next one on the shelf, not knowing whether they were in order or not. I also didn't have all the books, so that didn't help. It took me until I was 16 to find a copy of the White Dragon to read.
6:10 I think A.Mc. was planning on _liberalizing_ everything as she went. _The Harper Hall trilogy_ was a series of liberation stories. Bear in mind the era in which they are supposed to be taking place, she is basically taking 14th century European culture/society, and bringing them to about our level in less than two decades.
I grew up loving the series! I did recognize even back then that the world was pretty rough on the women, but that didn't dissuade me from enjoying the books, because it wasn't supposed to be a utopia; it was a world with real problems for the characters to overcome. What does mystify me across the years is how or why did the series decide to downplay the psychic power angle from Dragonflight. Remember how Lessa used low-grade psychic power to manipulate the Holders around her?
Other things I liked in Pern...
* F'nor's assault on the Red Star and Brekke's response was one of the few times I've actually teared up from a novel
* Piemur finally getting his chance to kick butt and take names!
* Masterharper Robinton outtalking, out-drinking, outmaneuvering, and overall out-awesomeing everyone in his path
* Menolly's joy at finally having people appreciate her music
* F'lar casually kidnapping all the Holders' wives and children to make a point
Enjoyed the review very much! I also find it interesting how the perspective shifts when you go back to childhood books with a new attitude and start noticing things you haven't considered before...
+Lesia's Tale Yeah, the adult perspective on childhood favorites is... interesting (said with some hesitation! ^_^). It's kind of a two-edged sword, I think! I've re-read a bunch of childhood books this year and I now know why some people refuse to re-read because it might destroy your memories of how good a book was! Pern gives me the most conflicting emotions :-) though at the end of the day, I love 'em.
+Kalanadi yeah, but I guess it's worth the risk because your memories will stay with you anyway, even if your experience is renewed.
I definitely want to read these now, starting with the Harper Hall as you suggested. I think I'll make it an aim of next year, among many others. Really good review and overview.
+FinalBlowJoe And the good thing is that the Harper Hall books are tiny - so quick to read! :-)
I read these in middle school after reading a short story (The Impression?) of McCaffrey's in Lit class. You're spot on in your recommendations about reading Harper Hall first. Most of the info from the original trilogy is recapped in Harper Hall and the originals haven't aged well at all. Definitely a product of the time.
Anyway, I'm rereading this series before I reread the Valdemar books for the umpteenth time. I can see the influence McCaffrey's dragons had on Lackey's Companions (and other creatures).
First off, thank you for doing this. I enjoyed your take on it.
Second off, I think you are looking at Dragonflight through a modern lens and not judging it fairly. Lessa was the hero of Dragonflight. She was told what to do and when to do it, till she decided that she had enough. She was told queens don't fly, till she decided that was stupid and flew her queen. She was the one who figured out that dragons could jump between times. She was the one who jumped back to get the oldtimers and bring them forward. For a novel written in the 60's this was fairly progressive way of writing a female character. Has it aged a bit since? Yeah, but what hasn't. As for the non-consensual relations, if you recall Lessa was the one who called Mnementh back so that F'lar would be there for the mating flight, so was it non-consensual?
Well, I don't think anyone explained the whole 'when your queen mates you're going to have sex with the bronze's rider' aspect to her beforehand. From F'lar's perspective after the flight he admits it was a violent sexual encounter and he wished she hadn't been a virgin too, but....granted given the choice between F'lar and R'gul...but ironically Ramoth herself was going for Orth, not Hath, so if Mnementh hadn't been clever T'bor would've ended up the weyrleader. I think it's mainly that and the fact that F'lar is faintly abusive at times that colors a modern reader viewing it (but he DOES improve as the books go on, but the whole rapey aspect of mating flights remains present).
I think too, even if Lessa chose F'lar by calling him back, that doesn't mean people can't go too far.
The biggest problem is we assign consent a different level based off various things.
Can F'lar consent, if he is summoned back BY LESSA and under control of his dragon psychically/empathically?
Does his lack of consent--and acceptance thereof--mean that he wasn't too rough?
Does the growing relationship with Lessa between them, leading up to her choosing to force Mnementh back, become negated by the fact that adult dragons override their human partners, TO THE POINT YOUNG RIDERS ARE KEPT LOCKED IN SEPARATE ROOMS SO THEIR CONSENT ISN'T INVALIDATED?
That said, I'm surprised "Lord Jaxom forces a serf on his land to fuck even though she resists" wasn't mentioned. Given Ruth, his dragon, is canonically asexual.
Like, that wasn't psychic/empathic dragon being like "we gunna f*ck"
That was all Jaxom
I make allowances for adults who know what's coming and choose to be near others in the flight, especially when they specifically call to the one they want (which is kinda foreshadowed by Lessa quite a bit).
Be like knowing you're going to an orgy, and calling the one you wanted to hook up with to meet you in the 2nd room on the right.
But someone not even affected by his dragon's mating lust?
That rubbed me the wrong way even as a younger reader.
Awesome recap!!!!! Loved it.
I discovered these quite young, didn't notice any of the relationship stuff cos I was interested in the setting and the dragons and stuff, like you.
In particular I absolutely loved the Harper series - though I didn't read these until into my 20s I was very into my guitar and writing songs at that point, and thus Menolly hit me just right, one of my all time favourite characters.
Recently donated my complete set to a friend's daughter, who's a pretty hardened feminist - wonder what *she* thought about it all, did she even get through the first book I wonder? I'll have to check in!
The short stories that became Dragonflight were written in the late 1960s, 1970 McCaffrey would divorce her husband. I Imagine these things played a major role in how she wrote romance in her early novels. Can't source this last bit but I've also heard she was actively trying to write in a medieval mindset for these stories as well.
the smallest population required to support a colony is 10,000 . This is why at landing they had limited duration / support for children to widen the genealogical base for the group to survive. Many die in first fall, including children... and so bastard offspring were NEEDED !! THAT was what set the stage for what followed. Add in the plagues... and it's still needful to prevent deformed off springs due to too close consanguinity. Folks need to remember the world-setting these books are set in, and the issues they generate.
This sounds awesome. I can't believe I've had this for a dozen years unread in my library.
25 years after reading and youre right, its the world and scenarios thats captivating, i still remember the thread. Couldnt name a single character in the books, but i remember pern and thread like i read it yesterday
Speaking of names... One thing that stuck in my mind about Pernese names is how lots of crafters and holders would give their boys names that were easy to abbreviate dragonrider-style. Y'know, "just in case". ;D
I was sixteenth when I read this book.I'm 59 now.
Jaxom, Piemur, F'lar, F'nor, Lessa, Robinton and Menolly were my favorite characters in the series. Jaxom was my all time favorite though with his heroic act in White Dragon and All the Weyrs of Pern and you can probably guess my love of this series from my screenname
All the Weyrs of Pern was *so* good! It's my favorite in the series, bittersweet ending and all. Honest to God, the series could have ended with that book and I would have been satisfied. Everything that comes after is just a welcome bonus.
@@judaihyuga The White Dragon and All The Weyrs of Pern are my favorites for Jaxom's story at two different points in time
Have you heard about the new book being written now called After The Fall set after the end of the Ninth Pass written by Gigi McCaffrey?
I don't know when it comes out but I have been anticipating it since The Skies of Pern
@@dragonweyr44 I'll take it! I'm always down for more Pern, I love that world too much to wanna leave it!
Just a couple of thoughts from a fan of the series. Dragonflight was written when the world of PERN (and it is capitalized on purpose. PERN was a acronym that the original survey team gave the planet Parallel Earth, Resources Negligible) was in a technological and cultural Dark to Middle Ages. Yes, Robinton and Fanadral were key in bringing the world into a more enlightened point of view, but keep in mind how arch conservative the rest of the Lord Holders and Craftsmasters were. Paper wasn't even a common resource in the first couple of books. Instead, PERN was using an oral tradition by and large. Remember, what brought Menolly into the Harper's attention was partly her knowledge of the Teaching Songs...and Menolly was the FIRST female Harper. The only women who held any real power in the world of Pern were the Weyrwomen, and they were some of the most powerful people on the planet. As for the Lessa/F'lar dynamic, please remember that LESSA had attempted multiple times to manipulate F'lar...even successfully forcing him into a to the death duel with Fax. Her attempt to lie about Jaxom's birth triggered that duel. And, lets not forget how she treated Lady Gemma during Jaxom's birth. Lessa was not exactly lily white in Dragonflight. As for the sexual issues, in the F'lar/Lessa initial interaction, most of that was from their dragons...as the emotion (lust) was bleeding over into them via the psychic link. Prior to that, F'lar never touched Lessa. The F'nor/Brekke issue (if I remember right from Dragonquest) was a purely consensual relationship that had no draconic influence at all, so I am a touch confused as to what issues arose from it. If anything, the dynamic in that relationship (at least until Brekke lost her dragon *SPOILER*) was balanced against F'nor. A more pressing question that you didn't mention about the sexual aspects of theses stories are what happens to the Green riders? Until Mirriam impresses Path, all the Green Riders of that generation (and several prior) had all been Men...and they are wrapped into the passions of their greens (who are described in canon as being quite lusty).
Lastly, I would suggest that you look into Dragonsdawn. Its the ultimate prequel for the Dragonriders of Pern as it deals with the initial Landing, and the creation of the first Dragons. It helps explain a lot of the things that you find in The White Dragon.
5 years late, but I'm curious: Are there other books/series that you can recommend with the tropes you mentioned? "Low-tech society discovering its high-tech roots or fantasy-seeming world revealed to be sci-fi"... I love that, too; and I would love to read more of it.
An early, formative series like that for me was the Homecoming series, by Orson Scott Card. I didn't visit Pern until I was older and had read quite bit already. I have a very tense juxtaposition of feelings about the Pern books. On the one hand, I want to live there so much that it barely matters what the writing or character-building quality is like. On the other hand, it does read pretty thinly sometimes.
Wish they really would make that TV or movie series they keep talking about, but never do.
well... Jewel Riders WAS supposed to be the animated series... but oh, well... :(
@@JewelRiders I was talking about the Dragonriders of Pern series. I do know what the Jewel Riders series was, but they have nothing to do with Anne McCaffery's most popular series.
I always SOOOO wanted fire lizards.
I read these as a kid and absolutely loved them. I definitely credit them as among those that made me into a life-long science fiction and fantasy fan. I've wanted to re-read them for a while (I have the ebooks!), but new books are taking precedent right now. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on re-reading them as an adult.
+ElleKayEm Ah, the dilemma of re-reading old favorites or reading all the new, shiny books! :-) I'm curious if you remember how you discovered the Pern books - randomly, or recommended? This question came up for me while I was rereading and making this video. I couldn't remember if my dad got me onto the series... he would be the logical person if someone did. I never saw the books at the library, oddly!
+Kalanadi They were recommended by a friend as we were browsing the school library. I'm old enough that The White Dragon would have been pretty new at the time I read them at around age 10-12.
Seeing your comment to someone else, I've always thought of them as strictly science fiction too. The dragons are just big lizards, not *real* dragons like Smaug and Yevaud. :) The original Michael Whelan covers also look more like alien dinosaurs to me, rather than classic fantasy dragons.
+ElleKayEm That's true! The Pern dragons really are represented differently on those covers than traditional fantasy dragons. I never looked so closely until you pointed that out!
I really appreciate this balanced review. Anne McCaffrey is one of my favorite authors, and at one point, she was my absolute favorite author, but I haven't read any of her books for many years now because I'm kind of scared that they won't live up to my memories of them. I first read Dragonflight, Dragonsong, and Dragonsinger when I was 11 years old (almost 12), and they basically changed my reading habits overnight. Before that, I was obsessed with the Baby-sitters Club, and after that, I was obsessed with Pern and lots of other sci-fi and fantasy like Tortall and the Enchanted Forest Chronicles. I've been thinking that instead of rereading Dragonflight, maybe I will try Killashandra or The Ship Who Searched, my other two favorites by her.
Hearing this review got me back on the Pern train! I'm about to duck on over to Amazon to see if there's an audiobook for Dragonflight and Dragonsong...
I started with the Harper Hall trilogy and loved it! But this trilogy got on my nerves for all the reasons you said. Jaxom especially got on my nerves. I'm still going to read more Pern books, because I LOVE stories about dragons, but there are so many problems in the Pern world.
+Books for MKs I want to like Jaxom more in this reread, but nope. He really is annoying in some parts! It's kind of odd to see all these massive changes in Pern from a kid's perspective, even if he is a rare person who has a foot in both the Holders and dragonriders' ways of life. I remember the later books sets in the Ninth Pass as some of the best - I do hope that when I reread them they aren't as problematic as these first ones. That would make all us Pern fans happier, lol!
I discovered Pern as a teenager and spread out the reading into my late teens. I also didn't read them in any sort of order at all. I found that the ones I liked best were the ones I read in the very beginning, and in the very end. The ones I read in the middle just don't seem to have the same response for me. But, like you, they were pretty formative for the future of my SF reading which I didn't really get into until later. Re-reading them as an adult has brought a lot of not-great things to light to the point where I can understand why so may older readers just starting the series are turned off by it, but I think that having them start with Harper Hall (or my personal favorite Dragonsdawn) is best.
+tarabyt3 I'd like to continue rereading the Pern books while I'm in the mood, so I'll definitely get to Dragonsdawn! That's where AIVAS shows up, right? (It's been so long...!) I'd also love to read some of the books set at the original colonization of Pern. It would be verrry interesting to see what the gender dynamics are in those books, compared to the Pern society that developed later. I can't remember which middle ones I read, but there was a point I was reading things like Nerilka's Story and Moreta where I wasn't as interested.
Dragonsdawn is the first colonizers of Pern. I think AIVAS is there but it's not the highlight. AIVAS comes back at the end of Renegades (sort of) and features in All the Weyrs of Pern, which I also really love. Full circle.
I'd wanted to read the Pern series for years. At first it was mostly just that I could never find a copy of the first book, but after I started my current job, I started listening to them on audible (admittedly I started Dragonflight on the drive to my friends wedding but still). They were, in all honesty, better than I expected. I love this series and when McCaffery does a big scene she does it so good. The moments that stick out in my mind from the first two books are the first battle against the thread and F'nor's brief excursion to the Red Star, with Lessa's jump trailing closely. I love that the first battle is more than just an exciting action scene, setting up the dire situation the Weyr finds itself in. F'nor's jump to the Red Star was amazing at displaying how inhospitable and deadly it is in a matter of seconds. Lessa's jump to the past at the end of the first book is so weirdly harrowing for how it's portrayed and I loved every second. Admittedly, All the Weyrs of Pern stands as my absolute favorite in the series, though. It's just so...satisfying. It's not super action packed, but everything else about it is done so well that it had me hooked from start to finish.
Advised reading order: Harper Hall Trilogy first, or Dragonflight, Dragonquest, Harper Hall Trilogy, White Dragon.
I first read these books in my 30s when I joined Sci Fi book club. It was part of my introductory order. I figured s 3 in 1 book was great. I also got a Princess of Mars trilogy and a @ volume set The Cronichels of Amber.
I'm currently re-reading the first trilogy... and for me the most troubling aspect is the domestic violence of F'lar and Lessa's relationship. On my first reading as a child I didn't think of it as an abusive relationship, because F'lar was the good guy, and good guys aren't wife beaters. Instead, I framed it as F'lar treating Lessa "like a child", which including inflicting pain on her when she did something he disliked, or yelling at her for messing up his plans that he hadn't shared with her. I also didn't like the fact that the narrative framed this as justified and perfectly okay, even making a joke of F'lar shaking her.
But like you, I started on the Harper Hall books, so I was already immersed in the universe when I read 'Dragonflight'. Also, I was used to noting casual sexism in books, rolling my eyes, and continuing reading for the good parts, i.e., the worldbuilding. I mean, sapient teleporting dragons who form a psychic bond with their riders! No way I was giving up on that. 😆
White dragon was my first book about Pern. So it is my fav.
A pass is when thread is falling regularly. Check. Intervals between passes tend to be about 200 years but can be much longer. Check. But when thread is falling regularly (a pass) what constitutes "regularly"? Roughly how often and for how long when it's falling et cetera?
The regularity of Threadfalls is 12 to 14 days in different waves across the world. Sometimes Thread falls when it's cold resultig in Black Dust.
So, what order should I read the series in?
Dylan Taylor The first three, I think, should be read in the order I mention them in the video, since it's pretty chronological. The rest of the series, I am not so sure :-)
Thanks
Hi! Where does Dragondawn fit in the series?
If I remember right Dragon Dawn is a prequil which set up first colonies on the Southern Continent before the threat of Thread is known. Pern was set up to do away with technology gradually as their devices wore down resulting in low tech agronomist setting. The original settlers had just finished years of space wars in and around the Sol system, and wanted to leave that behind.
Somehow missed out on the Pern books... I like stories that explore the boundary between fantasy and SF (Majipoor would be my favourite example), so.. I don't know how I missed these. Probably dismissed them as Tolkienesque high fantasy because of the dragons.I think the age you encounter a book has a huge impact on how you view it in later life - it can be quite a shock to re-read childhood or adolescent favourites.
+ixtl guul Oh, yeah... the dragon aspect. I was really confused when I first heard people describing the Pern books as fantasy ("it has dragons! it's fantasy!") because in my mind, the SFnal parts of colonization, the genetic engineering of the dragons, was so clear. One of the final books has an AI computer character! But that is all overshadowed by dragons on the bookcovers.
The Steerswoman series by Rosemary Kirstein is the most recent example of fantasy meets science fiction that I loved. It reminded me so much of Pern, even though it's different in all ways. And apparently Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series is also rather SFnal, though initially it starts as very much elves, humans, sorcery, magic. I'll have to look up Majipoor in more detail - I still haven't read anything by Silverberg. I'm almost afraid to ask - how well has it aged? :-) It seems newer than Pern at least!
Kalanadi It just shows one should never judge a book by its cover! I'll have a look at the Pern books. Thank you for your great introduction/review. I'll look up Rosemary Kierstein too :)
As for not having read any Silverberg - I AM SHOCKED. My advice: skip Lord Valentine's Castle - go straight for Majipoor Chronicles; you'll read it in a day, and if you're not hooked, well... I'll be very, very surprised. I re-read it recently and I don't think it has aged at all; still a masterpiece ;)
Thanks for all that you do.
If someone was curious about how mankind got into space you could read the series by McCaffrey, To Ride Pegasus, Pegasus in Flight and Pegasus in Space. Also good reads.
I convinced my husband to watch this video since he read the Harper Hall series when he was young. Here's what he had to say:
"I quite liked the books when I read them. I was around 11. I don't think I would enjoy them as much now, but that doesn't bother me. I liked how they handled standard fantasy tropes in a mature but accessible way. I liked how the female protagonist was not a cardboard cut-out wimp or badass. I liked how the world felt full and well thought-out. I liked how the society was realistically shaped, with admirable and non-admirable elements that fit together organically.
I didn't really care for the music. I don't think McCafferey was great at writing musical scenes. I remember being underwhelmed by the dragon-riding after the first few scenes."
+Libby Stephenson When I was a kid I thought the lyrics at the beginning of chapters were just the greatest (some of them are very catchy), but I am so not musical. I could never figure out if the music stuff was very realistic, or if McCaffrey was just an appreciator of music and not a musician herself.
Surprisingly, one of the things I realized when rereading all these books is that the dragon-riding *is* underwhelming. There isn't much of it, and it's the same experiences over and over. Kinda boring! That's what made Jaxom's dragon Ruth more interesting in The White Dragon. He showed up in scenes when it wasn't just dragon riding to go fight thread, or as a background detail.
@@Kalanadi Anne McCaffrey was a professionally trained opera singer, and music shows up as a theme in several of her series, especially The Ship Who Sang and The Crystal Singer. There have actually been a couple of CDs released by Tania Opland and Mike Freeman of the music in the Pern series--officially sanctioned by Anne McCaffrey herself! Some of it is pretty catchy. :-)
I used this to figure out my dragon but i read this book like i was a dragon
Speaking of the primitive society rooted in a technological past trope, when I was a teenager, I quite enjoyed some of the books from the Ardneh's World series by Fred Saberhagen (www.librarything.com/series/Ardneh%27s+World). This trope appears in a few places in the series, but most of the books stand up as pure fantasy. I did pick up a book from another fantasy series by Saberhagen as an adult and really was not impressed by it. I do wonder how the books from Ardneh's World would stand up to a re-read.
I just read DragonFlight and had a good time. The world building was great and I thought the writing pros were good enough. I love Lessa so much she was so wonderfully written. But the mess that is F’lar being a very flawed man made me mad. The sexism in the whole book was painful to read. Half way through I had to have a discussion with my mom for making me read a book that was awful to its women. My mother says it gets less demeaning to women but I’ll believe it when I see it. My mom talks about the romance as if it’s the most amazing thing, but the start was very very rocky.
I live for romantic side plots, but I wish that she had waited longer for them to get sexually involved. they had the whole enemies to lovers vibe going on. I was hoping f’lar would become less of a turd before he and Lessa got together but then the dragon sex thing happened. 😔
I wish I started with the Harper hall trilogy. Even though i couldn’t put the book down, dragon flight like many first books in a series has deep flaws.
Im excited to read dragon quest!
Dragonflight was written in 1968 and a possible reflections of the time. Even more so with the gender of the author.
I came to Pern late in my life. (late 50's early 60's) I liked the concept of the story but disliked the way that Flar treated Lessa. In later books as weyrewoman, she was relegated to high status but still did fetch and carry. In other books you don't see the queen cleaning walls and fetching Coffey. Jaxom also had high status and was relegated to fetch and carry in the books. The fact remains that the books were set in a feudal type society which does not jibe with our current norms. ( Lords, Ladies, Dukes, ect.)
I’m re-reading these now! I read almost all of them when I was in middle through high school and then stopped once I caught up to what was coming out, so I never read the last 6-7 books published after about 2000. I just finished Dragonflight again and am reading Dragonquest. I think I will change the order. I initially read these three and then the Harperhall trilogy continuing in the order that the next books were published. I’m reading 1 and 2, then Harperhall 1 and 2, then White Dragon and then the last Harperhall book. Trying something different!
As for the problematic issues in the story, I have to think back to when the books were written. The first in the late 60’s when second wave feminism was just taking hold. I love Lessa as a strong female character, but I know she’s only able to act under the premise of the world she is set in. It would be very out of character for her to act more feminist than she is considering the Medieval type setting the time of the book portrays in the same way that a character set in modern or future times would not act the same ways due to social constructs of that society and time. F’lar doesn’t WANT to engage in non-consensual intercourse with Lessa. That is a side effect of the dragon/human psychic relationship. You can see in the story (though this trope is also problematic) that after the first mating fight, F’lar treats Lessa with respect and would like a healthy sexual partnership with her, but he is saddened that she was a virgin at the time of the flight and that neither of them were able to control that situation. Therefore, she is very cold to him on this front whereas he truly has fallen in love with her. The sexuality and societal sexual culture is one of women are meant to be property (re. Fax basically having a harem of women), but I believe that F’lar DOES see Lessa as a person and not property and feels terrible as to how that first mating flight occurred. I like to take characters how they are presented, and I actually really like F’lar and Lessa’s relationship, though it does begin very problematically. As the story progresses, they are quite the power couple and, in many ways, soulmates.
I know there are a lot of LGBT issues since it is alluded to that the green, blue, and brown riders engage in sexual relations with other men because all the dragonriders (at least in the first book or two) are men, so when the female greens mate with male blues or browns, that is the cause of some kind of intercourse that the humans have no control over. Perhaps sexual intercourse on Pern is actually NOT as stigmatized as it is in our current society and these issues (LGBT, not the non-consensual sex part) are actually non issues on Pern?
Thanks for the review and video! Reading these books, the Chronicles of Narnia, The Hobbit and LOTR, and Madeline L’Engle’s Wrinkle in Time and it’s sequels when I was in late elementary through high school
totally set me up to love fantasy and some softer sci-fi!
As to the LGBT issues...she sort of got herself into hot water on that account because her original contention was that bronzes and browns only choose straight males as riders, blues choose 'masculine' gay men and greens (before girls started being allowed to be candidates for them as they were intended) 'feminine' gay men. When someone pointed out the mating flight issue (where clearly for a large chunk of Pern history her '100% straight male' riders of browns and bronzes would be frequently having sex with male green riders during mating flights and I believe someone asked what would happen if a straight man impressed a green her response was that being the 'submissive' partner in that mating flight would MAKE him gay 'to fit'. >_>; Also lesbian/bisexual women were never taken into account in her books....it and she were just products of their time.
I read Dragonflight for the first time as an adult about 3 years ago. I did not like it at all. I did not like the portrayal of gender, and I thought the writing and pacing were poor. As a result, I never had any interest in continuing on with the series. I think reading them first as an adult impacted my experience a lot. I probably would have liked and identified with Lessa a lot more if I'd read them while I was younger and wouldn't have been as bothered by the flaws. Great to hear your thoughts on the whole trilogy! (Still haven't convinced me to read them though :P)
+Nicole's Adventures in SFF Yeah, Dragonflight is has some terrible flaws compared to what we modern adult readers of SFF expect now. I can *completely* understand the whole series being soured by that experience! I was really surprised at how poorly it was written, that's just not how I remembered it "feeling", but... oof. I may never reread it now, but I will cling to the Harper Hall trilogy!
will you read to me? .... all of the audio books have been butchered on YT :'( ....
not a fan of audible? :)
To fully understand the pern series it should be read from dragonsdawn because it explains that the female dragons are egg layers a male dragons are the fighters due to kit ping being a old traditionalist where women stayed home yes it's very sexist but they had flamethrowers in the beginning with Hoa1 tanks . ruatha hold was founded by the first dragon Lady sorka father but you don't find that out until the first fall book.
Yeah, the attitudes and everything stand out, although I would make the argument that it's an entirely different culture because they've moved on from earth culture and the culture of the colonists so not that it's excusable in any way but it would make sense if they have to kind of progress again.. unfortunately
I read these and every other Anne McCaffrey book I could get my hands on between the ages of 12 & 14 and absolutely loved them, though Dragonflight is the book I remember best. I did recognize the misogynistic attitudes & was disturbed by the very problematic behavior of F'lar, but easily dismissed it. Rereading Dragonflight as an adult, however, I had a much stronger reaction to these flaws.
+Yvette - Bookworlder I must have been about the same age when I read Dragonflight first (11 or 12?). And that is the book in the series I remembered the best and latched on to, aside from the Harper Hall series. I was a very innocent kid, almost all the sex/romance stuff went over my head. But the F'lar/Lessa mating flight scenes *always* bothered me. And now I know why - a decade later!
+Kalanadi Books can be so different when experienced as an adult. I recently reread some of the Witch World books by Andre Norton (again, books I read in Jr. High) and was surprised by the stiff, formal writing. I was also surprised that what I remember as major plot points were actually quite minor events.
+Yvette - Bookworlder That's happened to me a lot: I remember great events I thought were major in books then reread and they weren't nearly as important! I think I was much more imaginative as a kid, and of course saw stories differently.
I just read dragonflight and didn't enjoy it, been checking out reviews to see if I'm just missing something but I agree with your review. The concepts, imagery and world building are really cool but the writing itself isn't good and the outdated gender role and sexual themes and ideas are disturbing. I didn't like any of the human characters not even Lessa, she was particularly disappointing.
Gonna try and read DragonQuest but honestly don't think I'll finish it. I remember listening to an audio book of one of the books as a kid, cant remember what the name was but it was about the first colonists settling Pern and creating the dragons I don't remember it being bad necessarily but I didn't know that it was a different series of the books so maybe I should check out the Harper Hall trilogy.
How can these books be so beautiful and amazing (the world-building, ideas, dragons, the fact its mainly sci-fi instead of fantasy, etc), and yet so problematic (the sexisim, misogyny, the homophobic subtext that I never noticed, someone had to tell me, and the many inconsistances and retcons as the books go on-mostly caused by Todd McCaffrey so I heard-) at the same time??
:)
I just read Dragonflight and I think your characterization of it as being sexist is off-base. Let's just say you might want to read more books from the era in order to better understand the cultural context within which it was written (by a woman).
I was about 12 or 13 when I read Dragonflight - my Mum took it out of the library and when she was done she handed it to me to read, saying "You'll like this one, it has dragons". She was about 45 at the time and a 70s type feminist, raised to be allergic to pink, only got me a Barbie doll after years of begging, etc... It's fascinating how attitudes change, because I would never hand those books to a teenage girl now, much as I love them. You can tell (from Menolly's arc re: music and Lessa's arc re: flying with Ramoth) that McCaffrey has certain feminist ideals and beliefs, but the ingrained mysoginy is scary.
(At least it's not as bad in the Pern books as it is in her Freedom series where the male lead is about to rape the female lead (because he's never 'tried a Terran' or whatever) and she bashes him on the head for it, but later she totally marries him?! Couldn't re-read those now, I don't think...)
Otherwise squeeing and agreeing with everything you said!! I've always found traces of these books in my reading tastes (like a love of time travel!), but I've also recently noticed them in my writing which was a surprise. Also did I ever mention I named one of my cats Lessa? She was tiny, with long black fur and a bit of temper (now she's enormous with the same coat and temper).
+Claire Rousseau Lessa sounds like the *perfect* name for your cat, haha! :-D
I'm not sure what else I'll read by McCaffrey, but I think I'll tentatively dip my toes in those waters expecting more of the same old-fashioned ideas. I wouldn't hand some of these Pern books to a teenage girl now either, which is really at odds with how much I still *like* them. Ah well...
One of the things I kept thinking about while rereading these books is how different McCaffrey is from "peers" of that age in sci fi, like Le Guin. Particularly Le Guin. I'm sure the comparison is really unfair, but how disparate those two are! I've concluded from my little experience that McCaffrey wrote adventure, Le Guin wrote social, political, gender commentary (I hesitate to say "literary", but yeah, more "literary").
I think ppl shouldn't judge yesterday's books by today's standards.
Adding to that... Pern isn't supposed to be an ideal world. It's a world with a lot of problems, social and otherwise, that the characters have to deal with.
Personally what gets me more than the sexism and queerphobia (which is arguably partly explained by the time it was written in) is the entirely unexamined slavery of Dragons.
And by "entirely unexamined" I mean, while fans tend to at least address the sexism this is literally ignored 90% of the time.
You have a sapient species literally designed with very limited memory to prevent their gaining autonomy and dependent on getting a human owner the moment they hatch or they die. How is that not fucked up even more so than oppression based on social systems that aren't literally hardcoded into the specie's genetics?
Both together definitely mean I'm probably not going to read any more of this than I have. There is a definite lack on dragon stories, but why read an outdated, queerphobic, effectively pro-slavery*, sexist series when there's good fantasy out there?
Sure, maybe without dragons, but as much as I'm a fan there are much better reasons to read things than "there's dragons".
*Even if Ann never considered the implications or decided it was fine because "they're not human"...because apparently the history of who can be declared nonhuman and still regularly is when it comes to weather they get rights completely goes over people's heads.
Hmm... I suppose from my point of view, we didn't find out about the origins of dragons until so far into the series it's too late to be very aghast at the genetic manipulation that went into them. By that point I was so in love with dragons that all I could think of is how wonderful they were and "where's MY dragon, dammit!" Of course, I was also a teenager, so...
They thought Threadfall wouldn't happen again much like the United States was unprepared for COVID-19!
Pern is as much fictional as is covid.
Finally, some non woke literature.
I always saw the "dragon sex" scenes playing out like a sexual "non-consent" fantasy. She did grow up in a time where John Wayne and Charleton Heston were considered "manly" men and "took" what they wanted. There is even a form of it today in the BDSM community, a sort of "pre-consent" for roleplay encounters. Just something to consider.