The fact so many actual humans are so close to A.I. is a shocking problem. I know for this a fact. But it's also true that some channels and so forth use A.I. to generate material. One reason for such profound overlap in general with the Left and modern systems (e.g. education) is that the same people are controlling said A.I., and the same beliefs and ideas are shared. In short: something like ChatGPT is a leftist tool, filtered with leftist language and sub-sets of data, coded by leftists, and pushed by leftists in line with leftist UN guidelines. If A.I. voted, it would vote far-Left every single time; in fact, it would not be allowed to vote Right-wing. Think about that.
I’m pretty sure it is. There are subtle but odd tonal shifts and at one point the voice pronounced “Hermes” in two different ways one after the other. AI tends to do that.
The fact that Plato is used as a poster boy for ancient greek homosexuality is indicative of utter ignorance of his work and moral philosophy. First of all for about 2200 years people understood what "platonic" love was, but somehow in the 20th century some scholars "discovered" that it was sexual. Well, it wasn't. Plato in multiple works, Symposium included, when he mentions the ideal love, he clearly states that it is the love of the soul and not the body. He clearly treats pederasty as an educational custom (which it was), he even mentions in Laws how it deformed at some point in time in certain cities and then proceeds to condemn sexual acts between men, which he calls "products of loss of self control" and "against nature", and says that any such acts should be outlawed. In Phaedrus, when he mentions possible sexual pleasure in the context of pederasty, he calls it again "against nature", "utterly shameful" and "utterly disgraceful". The whole point of his moral philosophy is for the soul to be liberated from the body and reach the Divine and the Good. To accomplish this, all pleasures should be under strict self control and especially sexual pleasures should be kept at the minimum, mainly for procreation. He literally compares pleasures to nails that nail the soul all the more on the body. The body which he famously describes as a prison of the soul or the grave of the soul. It makes zero logical sense for him to support homosexual sexual acts, it would completely contradict his moral philosophy. If he would say that pederasty was the purest form of love would be exactly because it was not sexual but purely educational. But the purest form of Love for him would be abstract and idealised towards the idea of Good and Beauty totally transcending physical world. I mean, do you think that the medieval, orthodox Christian monks whose greek language was much closer to Plato's, who copied Plato's works and they drew him as a saint in churches and monasteries would do that for someone who was promoting sodomizing children? Countless are the evidence and the arguments, while the only thing modern "scholars" have is continuously misinterpreting pederasty as sexual when even they themselves accept that it wasn't always sexual and that it clearly originated as an educational custom. Nonetheless, they automatically interpret any mention of it as sexual without any further evidence, which makes no logical sense whatsoever.
But why was it educational to begin with? Just teach them how to be men,combat war,honor, and love for their wife and kids,other than that,that "educational" is just an excuse to being a fruit
Yeah, they thought homosexuality was "weird" and basically a defect, which is pretty spot on with what we know so far scientifically. Men who happened to be "gay" as in romantically, emotionally, and physically attracted to another man, did not behave how we largely think of today. If things got intimate, most especially if these guys were warriors etc, they did not bone each other. That sexual act was not seen as something to be done to someone you loved, honored, and respected. It was something done to defeated enemies, for humiliation purposes, slaves, and prostitutes ect. The "ideal male" was seen as "One without holes" and was not to be penetrated. If you loved, honored, and respected the man you claimed to loved, you did not put him in that role, nor did you put yourself in that role basically taking on the role of a woman, submitting and being penetrated, as it was seen as "robbing one of their masculinity" or "giving up one's own." Men also did not marry each other, again this would be seen as trying to emulate the male/female dynamic. There are gay men today who actually still follow the old world way. They reject promiscuity, as loyalty is major massive in such relationship. They reject femininity in males, and backdoor sex... Needless to say, they are ridiculed by mainstream gay culture, which they stay far away from anyway. If things got intimate, they did something else, which was seen as "equal", kept their masculinity intact, and made the bond between them stronger.
It's been fifty-five years since I last read _The Symposium,_ but IIRC didn't Socrates say (by relating a story by Diotima) that the highest love is the love of absolute beauty, that is contemplation of the form (in the Platonic sense) of beauty?
@@voxsvoxs4261 You're saying the purest relationship is sex between a teenage boy and a grown man? If I'm not mistaken, pederasty is essentially pedophilia but with someone just slightly older. Not sure how that love could be more 'pure' than a mother for her child, a father for a daughter, husband and wife, etc. People weren't designed to be picked off and consumed by someone far older than them. That's creating a power differential that isn't natural.
The Ancients were "very liberal" about sex, in that a rich and powerful man could use the weak. Sounds like a certain infamous private island we've heard about.
Exactly! When people hear about the sexual degeneracy of ancient societies, they seem to ignore that it was pretty much isolated to the decadent elites of certain eras, much like we see in any fallen empire.
I may be gay, but I prefer Metatron's reading. The truth matters. I understand that people want to read into the past and to make everyone gay for the same reason they want that cute co-worker to be gay; when everyone is gay it makes them feel less lonely. It's all cope, and sometimes also seethe. The truth is important because it would let people focus more on _real_ history with _actual_ supporting documentation, which is important because discovering that one thing is a lie or an exaggeration undermines everything else. Also, being honest about the past is a sober reminder that - at least for most things - current year is almost always best year. If the past looks rosy and perfect, it undermines how far we've come.
I am bi, i mostly agree. The current year isn't best, as we have regressed a lot, thanks 2 the ppl pretending 2 side with us, but in reality only see us as tools 2 be used like shields and propaganda mouthpieces.
It was not a gay paradise but Metatron is downplaying how common it was. Alexander the great slept with many man openly. That shows how much people cared about it in the past.
@@paulodelima5705 depends on the wording, alot of people say "its clear proof they were gay cause it says they slept in the same tent and cried when they thought the other died" and push it to have a sexual undertone
@@paulodelima5705Alexander the Great was an emperor. The upper echelons of society have always been able to get away with behaviors that were taboo for the lower classes.
3:25 " *I swear its like these channels are doing it on purpose to misinform* " That is a very safe assumption, considering they always get it wrong to the benefit of the same modern ideological/political side. Not a coincidence
Being wrong is also a great way to farm the algorithm. Being controversial gets attention. Have you heard about how hard it is to get 'boring' scientific papers published? Meanwhile you can get published very quickly if you make something inflammatory.
@@soulknife20Same place these people do, they just do very "liberal" interpretations. I am reminded of when they said there were trans vikings because they found a woman buried in the warrior tradition that was typically only given to men. Or how they use some native American tribes third gender roles as confirmation that they believed in more than one gender. These are conclusions you can draw, but they're bizarre and far from accurate or honest. There's even people who call themselves "queer historians", and their job is to identify anything that can be warped into an interpretation of past people and events as either gay or otherwise pro-modern gender ideology "facts". A lot of modern ideas have existed since time immemorial because they speak to a key part of human nature, good or bad. They want to attach gender and lgbt ideology to that idea in order to validate their view, since if it doesn't exist in history, modernity in this regard can be argued to be delusional.
When I visited Greece with my (Greek) fiancé I remember him telling me: "We've had underground plumbing since about 2000 BC, but that was also the last time we performed maintenance on most of it, so please don't flush any toilet paper."
Your fiancé knows what he’s talking about. Especially if you visit cafes/restaurants in Athens’ city centre there are signs in WCs warning you against flushing toilet paper which tourists find absurd 😅. Well that’s the way of living I suppose.
you cannot flush toilet paper in Greece, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Turkey and Ukraine, Egypt, China, and rural South America
@@Blox117 "everything was allways progressive, but dont forget its only gotten even more progressive" -people who think progress is infinete on 1 subject (sexuality)
@@MCharlesPaintingand than you ask them again to speculate on their previous speculation that you said was an unreasonable argument. Seems to be a very toxic way of looking at things and treating people with whom you disagree.
@@guillaume4519 HA. You haven't heard a lot about what Zeus likes to do in his free time if you think the gods of Olympus are pure. The ones that were are in the minority. If anything, the Greek gods would probably prefer everyone to sacrifice virgins so they had more "Pure" women to corrupt and enjoy for themselves...unless Zeus is bored that day. He might stop by as a horse or a boar and beat them to it.
Ironically, just today I used your video on Emperor Hadrian to correct some nonsense about him in a gay facebook channel. That one was so dishonest they claimed his lover was a man and they showed two men of roughly the same age even though they clearly were not.
@@metatronyt no problem. As you can guess I saw this problem several times and the same channel even falsely claimed that Zeus loved Ganymed and that Ganymed was a man. I tell you I am just waiting for them to praise something from imperial China, because that is my turf and oh boy did even scholars and youtuber misinform people there.
There seems to be a conflict here. The guy says homosexual relationships were not only accepted but encouraged, but then says that the passive partner was ridiculed. Those seem inconsistent.
He also said later there were laws against it and you could lose power in case they caught you. They guy contradicted himself so much that basically gave Metatron and whoever wanted to oppose his arguments free ammunition. You gotta push the agenda somehow though.
@@Stratigoz Further evidence it's an AI-generated channel lol. AI self-contradicts itself all the freaking time, since it doesn't "think" and just guesses what word it thinks comes next.
All this garbage about gays in ancient Greece was popularized by Kenneth Dover who was a British historian and wrote the book Greek Homosexuality in 1978 trying to push a gay agenda. Just like Metatron said, he cherry picked a tiny amount of pro gay verses and ignored the other 99% of ancient sources. This was an obvious attempt to link gay with ancient Greece to make it more main stream and acceptable. Unfortunately now we have this ridiculous stigma attached to Greece and its irritating.
Not all places were the same. Pederasty was common in Greece for a long time in all city states. This is not a cherry picked evidence. They didn't care as long as they fulfilled their obligations.
@@paulodelima5705 Pederasty was not explicitly about sex, nor was it even supposed to be about it. It was a practice among MANY ancient cultures for a father to send his teenage sons to live with another man and have that man teach them about becoming an adult male in their society. The Romans even said that the reason for the custom was that a man not their father would be a stricter teacher and punish the student for mistakes more than a father who may be apt to overlook or excuse some of his son's shortcomings because of his love for his child. The practice during the Middle Ages of sending a son off to become a squire for a knight, or even to apprentice for a trade even though the father did the same thing, was for the same reason. The 'love' that was encouraged between the teacher and pupil was supposed to reflect that of a father for a son and had nothing to do with sex. The practice also had the goal of bringing two different families closer together for economic and political reasons and that relationship would last well after the son became a man and started a family of his own. So yes when he pointed to the few occasions where the teacher took advantage of the pupil to say it was the normal custom IS cherry picking. Also as was discussed in the video when the ancient sources mention sex in relation with pederasty they almost always condemn it.
@Seischthon It's even worse bro, there's one picture he called homo erotic because two dudes had their swords touching and he claimed it was all innuendo 💀😂
As one of your more liberal viewers. And a history major, And also a bisexual. I'm with you on this one. Because it gets wild over here on the left. I don't think Americans have a good grasp of just how long ancient civilizations lasted. For instance, we could find evidence of gay sex being the norm for an entire 250 year span. (As long as the US has existed) And we still have another 1000 years of Ancient Greece to cover, wherein it might not have been.
I wouldn’t expect the Greeks to have a word for homosexuality if they expected people to have heterosexual marriages and make babies. The idea that someone wouldn’t be married and have kids would seem foreign
We did have a word, "kinaidos" In fourth-century BCE Athens, the orator Demosthenes is labelled a kinaidos in the courtroom by his opponent in order to besmirch his masculinity and accuse him of shameless conduct. In the Gorgias, Plato cites the “life of the kinadoi” as being the prime example of hedonistic living. Roman authors are more detailed as to what exactly makes the cinaedus’ behaviour so wretched: Catullus, Martial, and Juvenal all portray cinaedi as desiring sexual penetration by other men and often as displaying extreme effeminacy. The word “cinaedus” also occurs frequently in insulting graffiti on the walls of Pompeii. Appearing more than 30 times, it is often accompanied by the name of the specific individual it mocks. On occasion a little more information is provided. For instance, a graffito uncovered recently reads: NICIA CINAEDE CACATOR. Nicia, or Nicias, is a personal name, that it is Greek suggests it may have belonged to an enslaved person who had subsequently been manumitted. A cacator is a person who defecates. Therefore, this slur, “Nicias, a cinaedus and a crapper,” bluntly attacks an individual as being filthy in his social, sexual, and digestive behaviour. You could get executed in most Greek states if you were gay, 100% executed if you fd a minor boy.
Family?! So you support the continuation of oppressive heteronormative patriarchal power structures in society?! Our women need to all be in the workforce and they all need to be strong independent girlbosses who don't need no man. Who cares about collapsing birth rates and social atomization and rates of depression and mental illness, women need to be strong and independent!!!
@@echetlos Yeah, people seem to forget that Greece wasn't a unified country at the time. Every city-state had their own laws and culture, and their own ideas of morality. An Athenian and a Spartan would likely have found some point of disagreement on almost every aspect of life, despite both being Greeks
The stupidity of YT censorship is unbelievable. It's really interesting to watch history videos about things like the rise of Naz1sm (see that) and have to talk about the "failed Austrian painter." You should have called your video "Passionate hugging in Ancient Greece?"
Same, I hate it when people say that Ancient Greece had a lot of this shit. We didn’t have a word for poustia back then, I hate that they have to use our history for propaganda.
Since we're talking about Greece recently saw a video with one of those woke activists trying to save the world by tearing down Greek flags at a Greek restaurant while yelling about genocide thinking that they were Israeli supporters And she had the moral high ground and was in the right
Raf, I don't think im alone when I say I am really enjoying your new upload schedule. The somewhat informal style is very becoming and I look forward to watching or at least listening every afternoon.
I could see historians of the future reporting that homosexuality in the 1980s was "totally normal, accepted and even encouraged". They would use gay bars and public drag shows as proof that society at large embraced it, while in reality it was and still is split.
How can someone say "same sex relations were encouraged" and then turn around immediately and say "though it was stigmatized to be the passive parter". So which is it? Was is acceptable to have gay sex or was it stigmatized?
I ain't a expert, but to paraphrase a book I read (Which annoyingly I can't find right now to cite it, my apologies) in Pederasty the younger individual was suppose to be pleasuring the older teacher for the teacher's amusement, and the younger individual wasn't suppose to be taking any joy in doing so, instead having the perspective of an obligation. Likewise to actually allow one self to be "Pierced" was seen as extremely degrading, thus also someone taking pleasure in such would've been seen as extremely perverse. I hope I worded it vaguely enough that this passes the scrutiny of the algorithmic overlord.
@@bewawolf19 That makes sense. Also, idk where I remember this from, or if it's even correct, didn't a lot of Greeks consider it barbaric and chaotic to give in to lust for lust's sake?
@@hrafnagu9243 I would guess so, but that is pure conjecture from ignorance on my part. I only read a bit about the history of Athens specifically which only loosely covered wider Greek beliefs.
When he mentioned the Greeks using the statues of Hermes at crossroads and signposts the only thing I could think was "Please tell me they didn't use the naughty bits as the directional arrow."
Shakespeare had a fair bit of raunchy themes and jokes in a very christian England too. We may consider stage plays to be a form of "high class culture" today, but in Shakespeare's time and before it, stage plays were like the television shows of their time. Quality and seriousness in themes varied greatly. Some plays were basically indistinguishable from sitcoms of today.
His plays obviously mean trans people were everywhere as well [Portia in The Merchant of Venice being the one we studied at school but I know there are several others I haven't studied but have merely read instead - written into prose rather than as a play]. Rosalind in As You Like It and Viola in 12th Night but it also occurs in Cymbeline, Two Gentlemen of Verona, Taming of the Shrew and The Merry Wives of Windsor. Guess that being trans was perfectly fine, normal and obviously common in Tudor times,, to use their version of logic.
0:14 This guy has never read Plato's Symposium. Plato speaks about the eros of the souls and NOT about having sex between the same gender, and even more with kids. What a BS.
@@hariszark7396 was plato the one that talk about Plantonic love? ergo you can desire something but not actually follow through. I am not familiar with all his writing so in that i may need to be educated.
@@paulodelima5705 As per the words of my ancient Greek specialist who peer reviewed my work, eros is for every instance of romantic love, not just sex.
@@Marveryn In Plato's symposium, the main talking is about the *spiritual love* , hence Eros. They make a clear distinction between the "love (sex) of the bodies" and the "love of the spirit or soul" that has nothing to do with sex and genders. The term "Platonic love" comes from this distinction. It means that there is a love that has nothing to do with sex. Like the love between friends or family members or loving an art, games, music, or anything a person can love. I hope I am making it clear for you.
This reminds me of all that politically charged interpretation of the Spartans and how older mentors would habitually do the dirty deed with their proteges, which makes little sense. First of all, Spartan citizens were members of the only respectable families. Spartans also took a dim view of men who adopted a passive role in the bedsheets. Therefore it makes no sense to assume that Spartans had a norm of sodomizing young, male members of respectable families since it's basically the same as emasculating them in front of everyone before they had even reached adulthood. In reality there's hardly any historical sources to corroborate this intepretation of the relationships between mentors and proteges in ancient sparta. It's basically just a case of that old leftwing trope of reading a bunch of homoeroticisim into strong male friendships amd camraderie (like how people claim that Frodo had a romantic relationship Sam in LotR, even though Tolkien was a devout catholic)
The trope does exist for a reason. We know from the example of a similar dynamic with samurai how a mentor-student relationship can be used as an excuse. The dynamics of seniority, hazing etc can create all sorts of weird exceptions. A student is excepted to be in a submissive social role relative to their teacher anyway, so it's not necessarily as big of a jump as you might think. In a society with important adulthood initiation rights, it might not be possible to be emasculated before adulthood anyway, because that can only happen to a man, not a boy.
@@sevenproxies4255 I purposefully used the Japanese example exactly because it has a *much* stronger historical basis than the Greek one. At some point rejecting more and more examples of something just becomes as politically biased as going out of your way to try to find them. Actual history follows no modern agenda, and that includes reflexive opposition to leftist politics, as much as that leftist politics itself.
hey Metatron I am very glad that there are still people like you on YT. I've already started to think that the world has gone mad... or, that I myself have gone mad :D Anyway, keep at the good work and stay strong!
"I swear these channels are doing this on purpose to misinform" Sort of. They are intentionally misinforming, being obviously wrong, or being very dumb in order to go viral. The YT algorithm plays into this. It doesn't care if people share content because they like it or it is good. It only wants ads to play. It's one thing to debunk bigger channels. But don't give attention to the low effort channels.
2:28 - Just a fun fact : the Aztecs developed an aqueduct for their great city entirely without knowing there was a world beyond Mesoamerica. Admittedly about 1500 years after the Romans did, but an awfully impressive invention for people who never developed candles or tables, let alone wheeled transport or beasts of burden.
Alexander was the greatest conqueror in history. Much of the Mongol Empire was conquered by Ghengis Khan's generals. Alexander conquered his whole empire by himself.
Ancient Greece is less than 100 generations ago. In evolutionary terms, it is actually nothing. We are the exact same people, just with different technology.
When Plato talks about beasts and nature, he's forgetting, or maybe hey just didn't realize, that male animals will use sex against other males to establish their dominance. Kind of like the dominant and passive same sex of Ancient Greece. Maybe he meant to use that comparison though, to say if men practiced such behavior, they were no better than the beasts.
When you say "Plato talks" this is very inexact. Who makes this comparison in the Platonic Dialogues? Because Plato's arguments are never stated explicitly in, to my understanding, any Platonic Dialogues. In fact there is a meta argument in the Meno about learning, and how knowledge is gained which would directly contradict the idea that Plato would ever state an argument explicitly. The dialogue meanders, with the ideas of wisdom being inherent, arriving from good teaching, and coming from experience. With this we can see that wisdom can not arise from simply stating arguments.
Metatron, you should watch leather apron clubs video on Ancient Greeks, he goes into the idea of "Being the active participant" not being viewed well, either. He uses original sources.
Αρσενοκοιτης(arsenokeetis) means he who goes to bed with men, but it has one more fun aspect. Κοιτώ means look. Αρσενοκοιτης comes from κοιτομαι(i am lying down) but it sounds like he who looks at men as well😅. Greek is fun
What shocks me a lot is how often people reference the events that happened towards the collapse of a civilization that has existed in many forms over thousands of years and make statements like "see, it was normal" despite quite often it not being normal during the times when the civilization was actually prosperous. It's almost like they believe we should behave like a civilization in collapse.
a very acute notion. i really don’t have problems with what anyone doing as long as don’t harm others, that’s what liberalism right and especially relating to personal life as long as it stays that way. but this blatant ridiculous lies about genes or twisting of history bs like why you even doing that. you can’t change a reality nor facts. it’s just a agenda, which will run itself out, they doing more harm to their cause, and that bc who started it didn’t care at it all in the first place. now they successfully made common folk confused. we all ready seeing consequences of these fouls in societies. there is much to elaborate but if you know you know. their so called democracy metamorphosing into despotism.
Correlation does not equal causation. Certain behaviors become more popular in highly developed urban civilizations. Developing a highly urban civilization takes time for an agricultural civilization. The older a civilization is, the closer to its collapse it likely is. Of course, the industrialization changed things - now a developed urban civilization is the base requirement for a civilization, not its later stage. That's the issue with thinking history is cyclical, while forgetting that some changes, like discovering agriculture or industrialization, really are big enough to change the nature of future cycles.
@user-df4kf6fg7h you're describing something that doesn't need explaining, yeah the tech is creating a closed loop where time and culture are going haywire almost like that's the logical conclusion of human nature coming in contact with an established historical force upgraded tenfold.
This isn't the flex that the rainbow mafia thinks it is, most of the time people were "gay" in antiquity it was really just about power, let's just say it wasn't always 2 consenting adults.
I would speculate this is why sodomy was outlawed bistorically. Because it was usually not consensual. It's actually quite practical that they made the law, considering that.
@@orpheemulemo8053 Not to be graphic, but for the sake of discussion, are you suggesting that anal penetration is specifically banned according to scripture?
@@FireflowerDancer It could be but it's not specific There are verses that talk about the purpose of sex having anal kinda destroys the purpose of sex it's not supposed to be mainly for pleasure it's for reproduction with pleasure as a bonus What we know for sure is that same sex relations are not something God supports
Great video as always, but posting this about your Greek pronunciation of some stuff. Remember that in Greek there's diphthongs, so "οι" is read as a longer "ι" rather than "ο"+"ι". "`Αρσενοκοίτης" is therefore pronounced "Arseno + keetiis", with the emphasis on the punctuation. Same for "koine", that's "κοινή" (keenii), meaning "common" (use that on google translate to hear the audio for reference or any other app that has audio). PS: If I remember right, as you did mention, "Αρσενοκοίτης" was also the word used in the Septuagint to translate the part about how men shouldn't lay with other men like they did with women, making it closer to 2200 years old (bringing it that much closer to Plato's time), rather than just 2000.
One more blow struck for historical empiricism, Meta, against postmodern revisionists, especially among gay activists. Gay and Greek myself, have long been irritated by narcissists projecting their values on the past, especially on ancient Greece (Athens). Kala ekanes! (you did well!)
thank you metatron for putting so much work into your videos. i feel like you are the only youtuber i can trust when it comes to sources! your videos are very helpful in my journey of becoming a historian!!
@@MarverynIndeed, there is. There was a meeting where the question was asked sarcastically "what have the Romans ever done for us!?" Then people started answering with things like aqueducts, public schools, sanitation, roads, etc. The very last suggestion was "They brought peace?" which was vehemently rejected.
That boy of Socrates,Alcibiades, was one of the greatest politicians and strategists of ancient era,a womanizer and a person that lived a trully fascinating life.
I was watching a Greek historian named Apostolides claiming that while the Mythological hero of Alexander was Achilles, his mortal hero was Alcebiades. That has a point if we take into account that his tutor was Aristotle, Plato's student. Something of Alcebiades legendary charisma might have passed into him.
The amount of conformational bias people today exert just to end up making things up to fit their own narrative is insane. Good thing we have the Metatron❤
Great video as always! As a Greek speaker (and a graduate of the Greek educational system which includes teaching of ancient Greek after 13) I popped in to say that Ludus and Pragma were not used as forms of love in ancient Greece. I am open to being corrected of course, but I've never seen or heard Ludus in ancient texts of the pre-Roman period and "Pragma" just means "Thing". English speakers Also may say "we have a thing" but this doesn't make "thing" synonymous of "love".
The fact that we haven't found even one word for homosexual in ancient Greek indicates that the behaviour was not as common as it is alleged by modern presentists.
Or it could as easily indicate that engaging in homosexual acts was not considered a special identify. It's not trying to find homosexuality in the past that is an anachronism, it's trying to find modern identity politics and labels.
@@user-df4kf6fg7h Well if it wasn't considered a special identity then that basically spells it out. To the Greeks it was just another type of weirdness befit barbarism, otherwise they would have given it a name if they truly recognized it as a behaviour befit of civilization.
@@kaizokujimbei143 You are actually more likely to name a weirdness than something considered ordinary. We have a word for a "slob", we don't have a word for showering every day or so. To be clear, I don't think homosexuality was super common in Ancient Greece, I just think the "word" counterargument is a bad one, that assumes modern identity label politics.
@@user-df4kf6fg7h Which is why I'm viewing it from the perspective of the ancient Greeks. The Greeks made the distinction between the barbarous and the civilized. My argument is that it stands to reason to assume that what the Greeks would have considered to be civilized behaviour it is that which would have been proliferated in their society as linguistic terms in common use. On the same token, the Greeks were aware of cultural practices espoused by barbarous tribes, meaning those outside of Greekdome. Still the Greeks did not give names to barbaric practices because what would be the point in that? Foreign concepts need not be introduced in common day parlance in the Greek city-states.
Here is my take on sex and other weird stuff in human history. They more than likely got up to all the same things we do now. To varying degrees of acceptance and popularity based on time period, place and culture. Thats all i need to know. People are people and we really haven't changed that much
Arsenok-i-tis. Not Arsenok-o-i-tis. It's pronounced as a solid common i (in english e). And it's from the two vowels o and i. When combined they are pronounced as i (sounds like e, think the pronunciation of the word key and you got the sound to the T). Source: I am Greek. Excellent work on the video, but we are accustomed on the high quality from you brother :)
Do you agree with Metatron’s assessment that there is absolutely no doubt about how to translate this word? The Bible translation I use literally has a footnote on this word that says “meaning of Greek uncertain”.
@@boxxyismyqueen1 It originates from the word κοίμαι (or κείμαι) which basically means to lay down. With the purpose of either sleep, rest, or die. So yes, I have absolutely no doubt that my explanation is 100% correct.
You do realize that Ancient Greek had a different pronunciation, and wouldn't have been pronounced like in Modern Greek, right? It would be like pronouncing Chaucer or Beowulf with Modern English vowels. As it is, Paul would have likely pronounced it kind of like a German ü or Scandinavian y. And a lot of people learn the pronunciation of 400s BCE Attic.
@@akl2k7 I am a native Greek speaker that has been taught Ancient Greek on top. I am aware of the differences, and yes there are many. This is not how you pronounce it.
@@brollgarth It is if you use the reconstructed pronunciation. There's nothing wrong with that and it's closer to how it's written. And being a modern Greek speaker isn't the flex you think it is. I'm sure there are plenty of Modern Greek speakers who pronounce Plato with their own pronunciation, which is nowhere near how he pronounced it (including some letter combinations like mp and nt as well as all the diphthongs collapsed into i). The difference between pronunciations is like the difference between Classical and Ecclesiastical pronunciations.
An interesting thing I discovered about the different words for love in ancient Greek (my study was in Koine) and their meanings is that they passed their definitions around between them over time. Similar to how words like "nice" in English have changed from positive to negative meanings. Thus, the fact that they had more than one word ultimately didn't clarify things as much as we might think. I still get frustrated with people today abusing the word "love" by conflating its different meanings.
Our Metatron has spurred me to share me being pedantic... indoor plumbing was being used by the Harappan Civilisation in the Indus Valley a thousand - at LEAST - years before the Greeks stopped living in caves & hitting each other with sticks lol
He said Minoan. I'm not sure which civilization developed it first, but the Minoans were around at roughly the same time as the Indus Valley Civilization.
When I went to university I learned pretty quick that most professors do not know that much that is just slightly out of their lane. They'll add or subtract things that aren't real to fit their world view and teach it. Then you have another history class that refutes what your first professor said the previous semester... college taught me it's a waste of money and you're better off being self taught, reading and studying all of the available sources and not just a handful.
Couldn’t have said it better. It’s pretty bad when you know more than the teacher. When I mentioned the “Laws of Lycurgus” teacher looked at me with a blank stare.
30:40 Sounds like the writer is the type or person who says that, if you write about something, even if it's the explicitly evil dark lord doing it, then the author must believe and promote it.
If it was as normal as people makes it seem to be we would have a lot more writings and other various evidence of it rather than some vague translation from ancient greek to modern english.
That is a good point. Many nations have a word for homosexuality is used in everyday speech that has a completely nonsexualized meaning. For example gay in American English. So the Greeks could also have used a common word to describe it that has lost this part of its meaning over time.
I have a list of movies that I would love to give you so you could react to them. Most of these are old and here is the list; The 13th warrior, ironclad, medieval, Russell crowe's Robin Hood (this has historical themes such as the Magna Carta signing), there is a new TV show coming out it's I believe in Hungarian called rise of the Ravens which is about how Eastern Europe was able to stop the Ottoman empire and there's a trailer out right now and I really want to have you react to it. It has English subtitles.
If these things were so prevalent in Greek history; why is it that the Greek church fathers don't hardly touch the topic as if it was not so prevalent in the modern life?
This guy essentially had made a video about and have debunked himself within the same video. You don't really have to make any additional research, just watch it to the end. I mean he essentially oppose hard facts, law codes and written sources to his own doubt about severity of its enforcement.
True, the Greeks were somewhat conservative, especially if you are talking about being religious and traditional. Even in not being Christians, there was a strong sense of morality within Greek/Hellenic society. That's to be expected, as per the city-state held the νόμος (nómos), the law, rule, code, or 'norms' of the people within that city-state. These laws were regards to behaviors to either persuade or dissuade people doing things in order to keep the public unity. Plus this was long before state and religion being separate was a thing, so obeying the laws was obeying the gods. And yes, I do find it humorous that they think conservatives are humorless when it comes to sex or adult humor.
didn't we spend years with 'the left can't meme'? like I can tell you I know so many old people who they would considered biggoted assholes that love making adult jokes. they use to tiptoe around it when I was a kid and the older I got the more they relaxed about it. That might the be problem. those people never grew up and learned their 'bigot' families were actually funny because they could never treat them like adults.
@@nogood237 Eliminating homosexuality *is* "making everyone straight", which you said "we never do". I'm not quite sure who you meant by "we" though. The people trying to "gaywash" history are radical left wingers, and it is not like there is a radical straight liberationist movement to compare with.
You'll never convince me that Weird History isn't an AI generated channel.
The fact so many actual humans are so close to A.I. is a shocking problem. I know for this a fact. But it's also true that some channels and so forth use A.I. to generate material.
One reason for such profound overlap in general with the Left and modern systems (e.g. education) is that the same people are controlling said A.I., and the same beliefs and ideas are shared.
In short: something like ChatGPT is a leftist tool, filtered with leftist language and sub-sets of data, coded by leftists, and pushed by leftists in line with leftist UN guidelines. If A.I. voted, it would vote far-Left every single time; in fact, it would not be allowed to vote Right-wing. Think about that.
Agreed
I’m pretty sure it is. There are subtle but odd tonal shifts and at one point the voice pronounced “Hermes” in two different ways one after the other. AI tends to do that.
@@sassyghost_8glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed that. I recognize the voice as a voice actor for a sci-fi series too - vorkosigen saga
Based off of Stephen Colbert's voice, no less.
The fact that Plato is used as a poster boy for ancient greek homosexuality is indicative of utter ignorance of his work and moral philosophy. First of all for about 2200 years people understood what "platonic" love was, but somehow in the 20th century some scholars "discovered" that it was sexual. Well, it wasn't. Plato in multiple works, Symposium included, when he mentions the ideal love, he clearly states that it is the love of the soul and not the body. He clearly treats pederasty as an educational custom (which it was), he even mentions in Laws how it deformed at some point in time in certain cities and then proceeds to condemn sexual acts between men, which he calls "products of loss of self control" and "against nature", and says that any such acts should be outlawed. In Phaedrus, when he mentions possible sexual pleasure in the context of pederasty, he calls it again "against nature", "utterly shameful" and "utterly disgraceful". The whole point of his moral philosophy is for the soul to be liberated from the body and reach the Divine and the Good. To accomplish this, all pleasures should be under strict self control and especially sexual pleasures should be kept at the minimum, mainly for procreation. He literally compares pleasures to nails that nail the soul all the more on the body. The body which he famously describes as a prison of the soul or the grave of the soul. It makes zero logical sense for him to support homosexual sexual acts, it would completely contradict his moral philosophy. If he would say that pederasty was the purest form of love would be exactly because it was not sexual but purely educational. But the purest form of Love for him would be abstract and idealised towards the idea of Good and Beauty totally transcending physical world. I mean, do you think that the medieval, orthodox Christian monks whose greek language was much closer to Plato's, who copied Plato's works and they drew him as a saint in churches and monasteries would do that for someone who was promoting sodomizing children? Countless are the evidence and the arguments, while the only thing modern "scholars" have is continuously misinterpreting pederasty as sexual when even they themselves accept that it wasn't always sexual and that it clearly originated as an educational custom. Nonetheless, they automatically interpret any mention of it as sexual without any further evidence, which makes no logical sense whatsoever.
But why was it educational to begin with? Just teach them how to be men,combat war,honor, and love for their wife and kids,other than that,that "educational" is just an excuse to being a fruit
Plato would not say that pederasty is the purest form of love because both parties are not climbing the ladder. It's simply not the best.
Yeah, they thought homosexuality was "weird" and basically a defect, which is pretty spot on with what we know so far scientifically. Men who happened to be "gay" as in romantically, emotionally, and physically attracted to another man, did not behave how we largely think of today.
If things got intimate, most especially if these guys were warriors etc, they did not bone each other. That sexual act was not seen as something to be done to someone you loved, honored, and respected. It was something done to defeated enemies, for humiliation purposes, slaves, and prostitutes ect. The "ideal male" was seen as "One without holes" and was not to be penetrated.
If you loved, honored, and respected the man you claimed to loved, you did not put him in that role, nor did you put yourself in that role basically taking on the role of a woman, submitting and being penetrated, as it was seen as "robbing one of their masculinity" or "giving up one's own." Men also did not marry each other, again this would be seen as trying to emulate the male/female dynamic.
There are gay men today who actually still follow the old world way. They reject promiscuity, as loyalty is major massive in such relationship. They reject femininity in males, and backdoor sex... Needless to say, they are ridiculed by mainstream gay culture, which they stay far away from anyway. If things got intimate, they did something else, which was seen as "equal", kept their masculinity intact, and made the bond between them stronger.
It's been fifty-five years since I last read _The Symposium,_ but IIRC didn't Socrates say (by relating a story by Diotima) that the highest love is the love of absolute beauty, that is contemplation of the form (in the Platonic sense) of beauty?
@@voxsvoxs4261 You're saying the purest relationship is sex between a teenage boy and a grown man? If I'm not mistaken, pederasty is essentially pedophilia but with someone just slightly older. Not sure how that love could be more 'pure' than a mother for her child, a father for a daughter, husband and wife, etc. People weren't designed to be picked off and consumed by someone far older than them. That's creating a power differential that isn't natural.
The Ancients were "very liberal" about sex, in that a rich and powerful man could use the weak. Sounds like a certain infamous private island we've heard about.
or Diddy. not much has changed really.
Exactly like diddy too!
Exactly!
When people hear about the sexual degeneracy of ancient societies, they seem to ignore that it was pretty much isolated to the decadent elites of certain eras, much like we see in any fallen empire.
No! Fake news, boo!
#Pizzagate never happened!
@@MsSwthrt102 "What would a man require over 100 amphores of olive oil for?"
I may be gay, but I prefer Metatron's reading. The truth matters.
I understand that people want to read into the past and to make everyone gay for the same reason they want that cute co-worker to be gay; when everyone is gay it makes them feel less lonely. It's all cope, and sometimes also seethe.
The truth is important because it would let people focus more on _real_ history with _actual_ supporting documentation, which is important because discovering that one thing is a lie or an exaggeration undermines everything else. Also, being honest about the past is a sober reminder that - at least for most things - current year is almost always best year. If the past looks rosy and perfect, it undermines how far we've come.
I am bi, i mostly agree. The current year isn't best, as we have regressed a lot, thanks 2 the ppl pretending 2 side with us, but in reality only see us as tools 2 be used like shields and propaganda mouthpieces.
It was not a gay paradise but Metatron is downplaying how common it was. Alexander the great slept with many man openly. That shows how much people cared about it in the past.
@@paulodelima5705 depends on the wording, alot of people say "its clear proof they were gay cause it says they slept in the same tent and cried when they thought the other died" and push it to have a sexual undertone
@@paulodelima5705Alexander the Great was an emperor. The upper echelons of society have always been able to get away with behaviors that were taboo for the lower classes.
Bro im just like you
3:25 " *I swear its like these channels are doing it on purpose to misinform* "
That is a very safe assumption, considering they always get it wrong to the benefit of the same modern ideological/political side. Not a coincidence
Oy vey, pure cohenincidence, fellow white persons.
EST
Or maybe they are just stupid lol
Where does Metatron get his sources? I don't think I've seen them listed on the videos.
Being wrong is also a great way to farm the algorithm. Being controversial gets attention. Have you heard about how hard it is to get 'boring' scientific papers published? Meanwhile you can get published very quickly if you make something inflammatory.
@@soulknife20Same place these people do, they just do very "liberal" interpretations.
I am reminded of when they said there were trans vikings because they found a woman buried in the warrior tradition that was typically only given to men.
Or how they use some native American tribes third gender roles as confirmation that they believed in more than one gender.
These are conclusions you can draw, but they're bizarre and far from accurate or honest.
There's even people who call themselves "queer historians", and their job is to identify anything that can be warped into an interpretation of past people and events as either gay or otherwise pro-modern gender ideology "facts".
A lot of modern ideas have existed since time immemorial because they speak to a key part of human nature, good or bad. They want to attach gender and lgbt ideology to that idea in order to validate their view, since if it doesn't exist in history, modernity in this regard can be argued to be delusional.
When I visited Greece with my (Greek) fiancé I remember him telling me: "We've had underground plumbing since about 2000 BC, but that was also the last time we performed maintenance on most of it, so please don't flush any toilet paper."
Lol, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
ΧΑΧΑΧΑΧΑ! ΣΩΣΤΟΣ!!!!
Sounds like they could use an upgrade 😂😂
Your fiancé knows what he’s talking about. Especially if you visit cafes/restaurants in Athens’ city centre there are signs in WCs warning you against flushing toilet paper which tourists find absurd 😅. Well that’s the way of living I suppose.
you cannot flush toilet paper in Greece, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Turkey and Ukraine, Egypt, China, and rural South America
I am sick and tired of these clowns trying to re write history. It's disgusting.
I'll keep standing against the nonsense not matter the backlash.
They already erased more than half of all white peoples ancient history
"Who controls the past controls the future" - George Orwell
"everyone was woke, trust me bro" - leftists
"I have sheldom heard of a hobbit sleeping outdoors" - J. R. Toilken
@@Blox117 "everything was allways progressive, but dont forget its only gotten even more progressive"
-people who think progress is infinete on 1 subject (sexuality)
@@Blox117ironically yes ... The old genrations call the younger genrations woke since the Mesopotamia times
“Who controls the present now controls the past”
If the Ancient Greeks didn't care about sexual purity, why did they place so much importance on Virgin Sacrifice in mythology?
Maybe they thought their gods did.
I mean that's about gods, not random dudes.
@@guillaume4519 First, that's not a reasonable argument.
Second, why would they think their gods did?
@@MCharlesPaintinghow so is speculation any less reasonable than your argument?
@@MCharlesPaintingand than you ask them again to speculate on their previous speculation that you said was an unreasonable argument.
Seems to be a very toxic way of looking at things and treating people with whom you disagree.
@@guillaume4519 HA. You haven't heard a lot about what Zeus likes to do in his free time if you think the gods of Olympus are pure. The ones that were are in the minority.
If anything, the Greek gods would probably prefer everyone to sacrifice virgins so they had more "Pure" women to corrupt and enjoy for themselves...unless Zeus is bored that day. He might stop by as a horse or a boar and beat them to it.
Ironically, just today I used your video on Emperor Hadrian to correct some nonsense about him in a gay facebook channel. That one was so dishonest they claimed his lover was a man and they showed two men of roughly the same age even though they clearly were not.
Glad to be helpful and thanks for spreading the truth brother.
@@metatronyt no problem. As you can guess I saw this problem several times and the same channel even falsely claimed that Zeus loved Ganymed and that Ganymed was a man. I tell you I am just waiting for them to praise something from imperial China, because that is my turf and oh boy did even scholars and youtuber misinform people there.
@@inotaishu1yeah antoninos was best friend and a wohman of course ...gaynimede was a boy even metateon comfim the source ...
@@inotaishu1 Ganymede was a man
@@dziosdzynes7663 no. he certainly was not.
There seems to be a conflict here. The guy says homosexual relationships were not only accepted but encouraged, but then says that the passive partner was ridiculed. Those seem inconsistent.
Exactly
strawman, he said boy and man homos are ok but normal homo bottoms are feminine
He also said later there were laws against it and you could lose power in case they caught you. They guy contradicted himself so much that basically gave Metatron and whoever wanted to oppose his arguments free ammunition. You gotta push the agenda somehow though.
@@Stratigoz Further evidence it's an AI-generated channel lol. AI self-contradicts itself all the freaking time, since it doesn't "think" and just guesses what word it thinks comes next.
THANK YOU! As Greek I am very tired of these nonsense!
These bullshit has to stop!
All this garbage about gays in ancient Greece was popularized by Kenneth Dover who was a British historian and wrote the book Greek Homosexuality in 1978 trying to push a gay agenda. Just like Metatron said, he cherry picked a tiny amount of pro gay verses and ignored the other 99% of ancient sources. This was an obvious attempt to link gay with ancient Greece to make it more main stream and acceptable. Unfortunately now we have this ridiculous stigma attached to Greece and its irritating.
It's really funny, cuz out of the thousands he cited, only like a handful are explicitly homosexual and almost all are non consensual with Satyrs.
Not all places were the same. Pederasty was common in Greece for a long time in all city states. This is not a cherry picked evidence. They didn't care as long as they fulfilled their obligations.
Some of the images s he cited as homoerotic were in fact men with female prostitutes, who because they weren't citizen wives, had short haircuts.
@@paulodelima5705 Pederasty was not explicitly about sex, nor was it even supposed to be about it. It was a practice among MANY ancient cultures for a father to send his teenage sons to live with another man and have that man teach them about becoming an adult male in their society. The Romans even said that the reason for the custom was that a man not their father would be a stricter teacher and punish the student for mistakes more than a father who may be apt to overlook or excuse some of his son's shortcomings because of his love for his child. The practice during the Middle Ages of sending a son off to become a squire for a knight, or even to apprentice for a trade even though the father did the same thing, was for the same reason. The 'love' that was encouraged between the teacher and pupil was supposed to reflect that of a father for a son and had nothing to do with sex. The practice also had the goal of bringing two different families closer together for economic and political reasons and that relationship would last well after the son became a man and started a family of his own. So yes when he pointed to the few occasions where the teacher took advantage of the pupil to say it was the normal custom IS cherry picking. Also as was discussed in the video when the ancient sources mention sex in relation with pederasty they almost always condemn it.
@Seischthon It's even worse bro, there's one picture he called homo erotic because two dudes had their swords touching and he claimed it was all innuendo 💀😂
As one of your more liberal viewers. And a history major, And also a bisexual. I'm with you on this one. Because it gets wild over here on the left.
I don't think Americans have a good grasp of just how long ancient civilizations lasted.
For instance, we could find evidence of gay sex being the norm for an entire 250 year span. (As long as the US has existed) And we still have another 1000 years of Ancient Greece to cover, wherein it might not have been.
Thank you! It shows you are a very open minded and fair person for sure. 👍🏻 very much appreciated.
🤮🤮 bisexual.You fruit 🍓
I wouldn’t expect the Greeks to have a word for homosexuality if they expected people to have heterosexual marriages and make babies. The idea that someone wouldn’t be married and have kids would seem foreign
We did have a word, "kinaidos" In fourth-century BCE Athens, the orator Demosthenes is labelled a kinaidos in the courtroom by his opponent in order to besmirch his masculinity and accuse him of shameless conduct. In the Gorgias, Plato cites the “life of the kinadoi” as being the prime example of hedonistic living. Roman authors are more detailed as to what exactly makes the cinaedus’ behaviour so wretched: Catullus, Martial, and Juvenal all portray cinaedi as desiring sexual penetration by other men and often as displaying extreme effeminacy.
The word “cinaedus” also occurs frequently in insulting graffiti on the walls of Pompeii. Appearing more than 30 times, it is often accompanied by the name of the specific individual it mocks. On occasion a little more information is provided. For instance, a graffito uncovered recently reads: NICIA CINAEDE CACATOR. Nicia, or Nicias, is a personal name, that it is Greek suggests it may have belonged to an enslaved person who had subsequently been manumitted. A cacator is a person who defecates. Therefore, this slur, “Nicias, a cinaedus and a crapper,” bluntly attacks an individual as being filthy in his social, sexual, and digestive behaviour.
You could get executed in most Greek states if you were gay, 100% executed if you fd a minor boy.
@@echetlos Based.
Family?! So you support the continuation of oppressive heteronormative patriarchal power structures in society?! Our women need to all be in the workforce and they all need to be strong independent girlbosses who don't need no man. Who cares about collapsing birth rates and social atomization and rates of depression and mental illness, women need to be strong and independent!!!
@@echetlos Yeah, people seem to forget that Greece wasn't a unified country at the time. Every city-state had their own laws and culture, and their own ideas of morality. An Athenian and a Spartan would likely have found some point of disagreement on almost every aspect of life, despite both being Greeks
@@echetlos Hedonism, wretched behavior, extreme effiminacy, hmm, I wonder if this is relevant to modern society...
The stupidity of YT censorship is unbelievable. It's really interesting to watch history videos about things like the rise of Naz1sm (see that) and have to talk about the "failed Austrian painter."
You should have called your video "Passionate hugging in Ancient Greece?"
not failed painter, call him mustache man
@@Blox117 or based anti-ZOG politician
“bad mustache man” and his yahtzee party
@@Blox117 or based anti ZOG politician
@@Blox117 Funny Mustache man is a classic but I personally prefer "Mr. Schmitler" when referring to the flatulent Austrian vagabond.
Thank you Metatron... As a Greek I am so greatful to you!
You can count on me Mediterranean brother
Same, I hate it when people say that Ancient Greece had a lot of this shit.
We didn’t have a word for poustia back then, I hate that they have to use our history for propaganda.
Oh, then in that case you would be indebted to
Club
For absolutely destroying the arsenokoitas lye!!!
Since we're talking about Greece recently saw a video with one of those woke activists trying to save the world by tearing down Greek flags at a Greek restaurant while yelling about genocide thinking that they were Israeli supporters And she had the moral high ground and was in the right
Leftism is a brain cancer.
I saw that too...
I think Met needs to see that one...
The woke mind virus bro.
Can you share the name of the video?
@@Durzo1259 th-cam.com/video/lKgBTK6it74/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gp-ZLNDhFYAujkU6
They didn’t have power bottoms in Ancient Greece.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
I’m afraid to google this.
power bottoms are as old as Humanity.
@@Jeton6 Shut up you hedonist.
Still isn't a thing, really.....
Raf, I don't think im alone when I say I am really enjoying your new upload schedule. The somewhat informal style is very becoming and I look forward to watching or at least listening every afternoon.
I could see historians of the future reporting that homosexuality in the 1980s was "totally normal, accepted and even encouraged". They would use gay bars and public drag shows as proof that society at large embraced it, while in reality it was and still is split.
Just pushing their agenda, as always
Ancient Greeks would blush at what people do in 2024.
They'd probably rush to the vomit-orium!
(Joking, of course)
Jokes aside, yeah it would be considered unacceptable behavior, the things modern people get away with.
@@willyb7353emetorion would be the word
@@willyb7353I’m not lol they would most definitely
How can someone say "same sex relations were encouraged" and then turn around immediately and say "though it was stigmatized to be the passive parter". So which is it? Was is acceptable to have gay sex or was it stigmatized?
I ain't a expert, but to paraphrase a book I read (Which annoyingly I can't find right now to cite it, my apologies) in Pederasty the younger individual was suppose to be pleasuring the older teacher for the teacher's amusement, and the younger individual wasn't suppose to be taking any joy in doing so, instead having the perspective of an obligation. Likewise to actually allow one self to be "Pierced" was seen as extremely degrading, thus also someone taking pleasure in such would've been seen as extremely perverse.
I hope I worded it vaguely enough that this passes the scrutiny of the algorithmic overlord.
@@bewawolf19 That makes sense. Also, idk where I remember this from, or if it's even correct, didn't a lot of Greeks consider it barbaric and chaotic to give in to lust for lust's sake?
@@bewawolf19 Also, using pedophilia to promote homosexuality isn't really a great argument. I hope people realize that😂
@@hrafnagu9243 I would guess so, but that is pure conjecture from ignorance on my part. I only read a bit about the history of Athens specifically which only loosely covered wider Greek beliefs.
uhh thats quite logical -- like in rome whats bad is being the passive partner... its a power thing
When he mentioned the Greeks using the statues of Hermes at crossroads and signposts the only thing I could think was "Please tell me they didn't use the naughty bits as the directional arrow."
They did.
'This way to Sparta!' 🍆
I need an answer now! 😂
In Rome phalluses were carved or painted onto the corner stones of buildings to point the way towards brothels.
Shakespeare had a fair bit of raunchy themes and jokes in a very christian England too.
We may consider stage plays to be a form of "high class culture" today, but in Shakespeare's time and before it, stage plays were like the television shows of their time.
Quality and seriousness in themes varied greatly.
Some plays were basically indistinguishable from sitcoms of today.
Shakespeare was the equivalent of a soap opera writer. The same sort of popular entertainment
His plays obviously mean trans people were everywhere as well [Portia in The Merchant of Venice being the one we studied at school but I know there are several others I haven't studied but have merely read instead - written into prose rather than as a play]. Rosalind in As You Like It and Viola in 12th Night but it also occurs in Cymbeline, Two Gentlemen of Verona, Taming of the Shrew and The Merry Wives of Windsor. Guess that being trans was perfectly fine, normal and obviously common in Tudor times,, to use their version of logic.
Man if works from Shakespeare were the soap operas of their day then how far our civilization has fallen!!
you know he ain't never wrote any of those plays. boy couldn't even read. Bacon secretly masterminded all of it
0:14 This guy has never read Plato's Symposium.
Plato speaks about the eros of the souls and NOT about having sex between the same gender, and even more with kids.
What a BS.
Eros is just the sexual desire. It is just passion.
@@paulodelima5705 Not a chance.
Eros is the *deep love* about *anything* .
Where did you learn Greek?
I am Greek and this word was never about sex.
@@hariszark7396 was plato the one that talk about Plantonic love? ergo you can desire something but not actually follow through. I am not familiar with all his writing so in that i may need to be educated.
@@paulodelima5705 As per the words of my ancient Greek specialist who peer reviewed my work, eros is for every instance of romantic love, not just sex.
@@Marveryn In Plato's symposium, the main talking is about the *spiritual love* , hence Eros.
They make a clear distinction between the "love (sex) of the bodies" and the "love of the spirit or soul" that has nothing to do with sex and genders.
The term "Platonic love" comes from this distinction.
It means that there is a love that has nothing to do with sex.
Like the love between friends or family members or loving an art, games, music, or anything a person can love.
I hope I am making it clear for you.
This reminds me of all that politically charged interpretation of the Spartans and how older mentors would habitually do the dirty deed with their proteges, which makes little sense.
First of all, Spartan citizens were members of the only respectable families.
Spartans also took a dim view of men who adopted a passive role in the bedsheets.
Therefore it makes no sense to assume that Spartans had a norm of sodomizing young, male members of respectable families since it's basically the same as emasculating them in front of everyone before they had even reached adulthood.
In reality there's hardly any historical sources to corroborate this intepretation of the relationships between mentors and proteges in ancient sparta.
It's basically just a case of that old leftwing trope of reading a bunch of homoeroticisim into strong male friendships amd camraderie (like how people claim that Frodo had a romantic relationship Sam in LotR, even though Tolkien was a devout catholic)
The trope does exist for a reason. We know from the example of a similar dynamic with samurai how a mentor-student relationship can be used as an excuse. The dynamics of seniority, hazing etc can create all sorts of weird exceptions. A student is excepted to be in a submissive social role relative to their teacher anyway, so it's not necessarily as big of a jump as you might think. In a society with important adulthood initiation rights, it might not be possible to be emasculated before adulthood anyway, because that can only happen to a man, not a boy.
@@user-df4kf6fg7h It's just hyperbole and lefty politics with the samurai as well.
Little basis in history.
Zero historical records.
@@sevenproxies4255 I purposefully used the Japanese example exactly because it has a *much* stronger historical basis than the Greek one. At some point rejecting more and more examples of something just becomes as politically biased as going out of your way to try to find them.
Actual history follows no modern agenda, and that includes reflexive opposition to leftist politics, as much as that leftist politics itself.
@@user-df4kf6fg7h excuse me mr sodomybot#3400789 but hazing does not equate to raping people, raping is a crime and is bad.
Επιτέλους καποιος που έχει όντως διαβάσει το "Συμπόσιο" του Πλάτωνα!😊
I stand with metatron ,you always do excellent work 😊
First Megatron and now Meratron😂
@goldenapple1754 my spell check messed me up
Just have to add. The love Christians are required to feel for each other is agape not eros.
hey Metatron I am very glad that there are still people like you on YT. I've already started to think that the world has gone mad... or, that I myself have gone mad :D Anyway, keep at the good work and stay strong!
"I swear these channels are doing this on purpose to misinform" Sort of.
They are intentionally misinforming, being obviously wrong, or being very dumb in order to go viral.
The YT algorithm plays into this. It doesn't care if people share content because they like it or it is good. It only wants ads to play.
It's one thing to debunk bigger channels. But don't give attention to the low effort channels.
Nah you’re giving them too much credit. They just don’t research enough lol
Metatron always keeps it real.
2:28 - Just a fun fact : the Aztecs developed an aqueduct for their great city entirely without knowing there was a world beyond Mesoamerica. Admittedly about 1500 years after the Romans did, but an awfully impressive invention for people who never developed candles or tables, let alone wheeled transport or beasts of burden.
15:34 speaking of Alcibiades, can we expect a Metatron video about the Peloponnesian war ?🤔
Weird History often gets things wrong
That's weird. 🤔
Just like ancient aliens....😂😂😂😂
Sick of the gay washing of our history.
As of straight washing
You are Greek? Very cool,I am Egyptian and live in Alexandria,built and named after the greatest Greek conqueror in history.
@@NapoleonBonaparte-uq8hk imothep
Alexander was the greatest conqueror in history. Much of the Mongol Empire was conquered by Ghengis Khan's generals. Alexander conquered his whole empire by himself.
Make being normal trendy again.
The bit about plays just says to me that humanity has always loved dirty jokes.
Ancient Greece is less than 100 generations ago. In evolutionary terms, it is actually nothing. We are the exact same people, just with different technology.
Your integrity, thoroughness, consistency, and adherence to historical truth is an oasis in a tribalized internet wasteland.
Thanks!
Me:
"Brother, may I have some oats?"
:Metatron:
"Yes."
Metatron has thrown the oats to me, Brother
@@Freeze151 "I am starving Brother!"
Love between husband and wife can be pure but I think the love between a parent and a child is the purest form.
Not sexual love
This doesn't only pertain to biological parents
Nietzsche said that a man only ever loves his work and his children.
When Plato talks about beasts and nature, he's forgetting, or maybe hey just didn't realize, that male animals will use sex against other males to establish their dominance. Kind of like the dominant and passive same sex of Ancient Greece. Maybe he meant to use that comparison though, to say if men practiced such behavior, they were no better than the beasts.
When you say "Plato talks" this is very inexact. Who makes this comparison in the Platonic Dialogues? Because Plato's arguments are never stated explicitly in, to my understanding, any Platonic Dialogues. In fact there is a meta argument in the Meno about learning, and how knowledge is gained which would directly contradict the idea that Plato would ever state an argument explicitly. The dialogue meanders, with the ideas of wisdom being inherent, arriving from good teaching, and coming from experience. With this we can see that wisdom can not arise from simply stating arguments.
I bet you felt very intelligent writing that.
Thank you for doing this! 👍🏻
Metatron, you should watch leather apron clubs video on Ancient Greeks, he goes into the idea of "Being the active participant" not being viewed well, either. He uses original sources.
Αρσενοκοιτης(arsenokeetis) means he who goes to bed with men, but it has one more fun aspect. Κοιτώ means look. Αρσενοκοιτης comes from κοιτομαι(i am lying down) but it sounds like he who looks at men as well😅. Greek is fun
What shocks me a lot is how often people reference the events that happened towards the collapse of a civilization that has existed in many forms over thousands of years and make statements like "see, it was normal" despite quite often it not being normal during the times when the civilization was actually prosperous. It's almost like they believe we should behave like a civilization in collapse.
Huh? Greek civilization didn't collapse until 1204 AD. It just evolved up to that point.
a very acute notion. i really don’t have problems with what anyone doing as long as don’t harm others, that’s what liberalism right and especially relating to personal life as long as it stays that way. but this blatant ridiculous lies about genes or twisting of history bs like why you even doing that. you can’t change a reality nor facts. it’s just a agenda, which will run itself out, they doing more harm to their cause, and that bc who started it didn’t care at it all in the first place. now they successfully made common folk confused. we all ready seeing consequences of these fouls in societies. there is much to elaborate but if you know you know. their so called democracy metamorphosing into despotism.
Correlation does not equal causation. Certain behaviors become more popular in highly developed urban civilizations. Developing a highly urban civilization takes time for an agricultural civilization. The older a civilization is, the closer to its collapse it likely is. Of course, the industrialization changed things - now a developed urban civilization is the base requirement for a civilization, not its later stage. That's the issue with thinking history is cyclical, while forgetting that some changes, like discovering agriculture or industrialization, really are big enough to change the nature of future cycles.
"It's almost like they believe we should behave like a civilization in collapse."
Word.
@user-df4kf6fg7h you're describing something that doesn't need explaining, yeah the tech is creating a closed loop where time and culture are going haywire almost like that's the logical conclusion of human nature coming in contact with an established historical force upgraded tenfold.
This isn't the flex that the rainbow mafia thinks it is, most of the time people were "gay" in antiquity it was really just about power, let's just say it wasn't always 2 consenting adults.
Rainbow mafia is craaaaaaaaazy lol
I would speculate this is why sodomy was outlawed bistorically. Because it was usually not consensual. It's actually quite practical that they made the law, considering that.
@@FireflowerDancerdepends on the culture for example biblically the act itself is just wrong
@@orpheemulemo8053 Not to be graphic, but for the sake of discussion, are you suggesting that anal penetration is specifically banned according to scripture?
@@FireflowerDancer It could be but it's not specific
There are verses that talk about the purpose of sex having anal kinda destroys the purpose of sex it's not supposed to be mainly for pleasure it's for reproduction with pleasure as a bonus
What we know for sure is that same sex relations are not something God supports
Great video as always, but posting this about your Greek pronunciation of some stuff. Remember that in Greek there's diphthongs, so "οι" is read as a longer "ι" rather than "ο"+"ι". "`Αρσενοκοίτης" is therefore pronounced "Arseno + keetiis", with the emphasis on the punctuation. Same for "koine", that's "κοινή" (keenii), meaning "common" (use that on google translate to hear the audio for reference or any other app that has audio).
PS: If I remember right, as you did mention, "Αρσενοκοίτης" was also the word used in the Septuagint to translate the part about how men shouldn't lay with other men like they did with women, making it closer to 2200 years old (bringing it that much closer to Plato's time), rather than just 2000.
I got a grindr ad on this video. Just... appropriate.
I don't know how anyone can use TH-cam with ads. Lol
One more blow struck for historical empiricism, Meta, against postmodern revisionists, especially among gay activists. Gay and Greek myself, have long been irritated by narcissists projecting their values on the past, especially on ancient Greece (Athens). Kala ekanes! (you did well!)
thank you metatron for putting so much work into your videos. i feel like you are the only youtuber i can trust when it comes to sources! your videos are very helpful in my journey of becoming a historian!!
Omg i feel horrible to hear such bs.. Thank you for your so valuable assistance, greetings from Athens Greece
"What have the Romans ever done for us!?"
"Brought peace?"
i swear their a life of brian joke here but i cant remember it.
@@MarverynIndeed, there is. There was a meeting where the question was asked sarcastically "what have the Romans ever done for us!?" Then people started answering with things like aqueducts, public schools, sanitation, roads, etc. The very last suggestion was "They brought peace?" which was vehemently rejected.
Hahaha the aqueducts
Thank you for this! I watched the original and was scratching my head at a few things.
Being Greek i cannot confirm or deny anything shown in this video.
We know, you have nothing in common with that culture, it's dead.
Have you developed the ability to see blue yet?
@@G2882GFound the turkalbanian
@@sotos-js4sf წადი, შვილო, ორი წიგნი წაიკითხე, იქნებ შეგრცხვეს სისულელეების ლაპარაკი.
That boy of Socrates,Alcibiades, was one of the greatest politicians and strategists of ancient era,a womanizer and a person that lived a trully fascinating life.
I was watching a Greek historian named Apostolides claiming that while the Mythological hero of Alexander was Achilles, his mortal hero was Alcebiades. That has a point if we take into account that his tutor was Aristotle, Plato's student. Something of Alcebiades legendary charisma might have passed into him.
@@GG-wf6cb Alexander is a copy and paste of Alcibiades. A truly remarkable person, worthy of 10 videos.
The amount of conformational bias people today exert just to end up making things up to fit their own narrative is insane. Good thing we have the Metatron❤
Great video as always! As a Greek speaker (and a graduate of the Greek educational system which includes teaching of ancient Greek after 13) I popped in to say that Ludus and Pragma were not used as forms of love in ancient Greece.
I am open to being corrected of course, but I've never seen or heard Ludus in ancient texts of the pre-Roman period and "Pragma" just means "Thing". English speakers Also may say "we have a thing" but this doesn't make "thing" synonymous of "love".
These bots infecting the comments are alarming
The fact that we haven't found even one word for homosexual in ancient Greek indicates that the behaviour was not as common as it is alleged by modern presentists.
Or it could as easily indicate that engaging in homosexual acts was not considered a special identify. It's not trying to find homosexuality in the past that is an anachronism, it's trying to find modern identity politics and labels.
@@user-df4kf6fg7h Well if it wasn't considered a special identity then that basically spells it out. To the Greeks it was just another type of weirdness befit barbarism, otherwise they would have given it a name if they truly recognized it as a behaviour befit of civilization.
@@kaizokujimbei143 You are actually more likely to name a weirdness than something considered ordinary. We have a word for a "slob", we don't have a word for showering every day or so.
To be clear, I don't think homosexuality was super common in Ancient Greece, I just think the "word" counterargument is a bad one, that assumes modern identity label politics.
@kaizokujimbei143 I think the greeks use the word flit hahahahaha
@@user-df4kf6fg7h Which is why I'm viewing it from the perspective of the ancient Greeks. The Greeks made the distinction between the barbarous and the civilized. My argument is that it stands to reason to assume that what the Greeks would have considered to be civilized behaviour it is that which would have been proliferated in their society as linguistic terms in common use. On the same token, the Greeks were aware of cultural practices espoused by barbarous tribes, meaning those outside of Greekdome. Still the Greeks did not give names to barbaric practices because what would be the point in that? Foreign concepts need not be introduced in common day parlance in the Greek city-states.
Thanks for telling history like it is!
Also, Video suggestion: what would an Aztec think if they saw our modern world?
Thanks for the comment and the suggestion.
Deep, throbbing "Platonic" love for his young male students...k Plato
Here is my take on sex and other weird stuff in human history. They more than likely got up to all the same things we do now. To varying degrees of acceptance and popularity based on time period, place and culture. Thats all i need to know. People are people and we really haven't changed that much
0:36 or the number six in Latin
Or in Swedish
Fair
Ugh! Let history be history!
Indeed
As a Scotsman, I found that 'Six' joke Hilarious.
Arsenok-i-tis.
Not Arsenok-o-i-tis.
It's pronounced as a solid common i (in english e). And it's from the two vowels o and i. When combined they are pronounced as i (sounds like e, think the pronunciation of the word key and you got the sound to the T).
Source: I am Greek.
Excellent work on the video, but we are accustomed on the high quality from you brother :)
Do you agree with Metatron’s assessment that there is absolutely no doubt about how to translate this word? The Bible translation I use literally has a footnote on this word that says “meaning of Greek uncertain”.
@@boxxyismyqueen1 It originates from the word κοίμαι (or κείμαι) which basically means to lay down. With the purpose of either sleep, rest, or die. So yes, I have absolutely no doubt that my explanation is 100% correct.
You do realize that Ancient Greek had a different pronunciation, and wouldn't have been pronounced like in Modern Greek, right? It would be like pronouncing Chaucer or Beowulf with Modern English vowels. As it is, Paul would have likely pronounced it kind of like a German ü or Scandinavian y. And a lot of people learn the pronunciation of 400s BCE Attic.
@@akl2k7 I am a native Greek speaker that has been taught Ancient Greek on top. I am aware of the differences, and yes there are many. This is not how you pronounce it.
@@brollgarth It is if you use the reconstructed pronunciation. There's nothing wrong with that and it's closer to how it's written.
And being a modern Greek speaker isn't the flex you think it is. I'm sure there are plenty of Modern Greek speakers who pronounce Plato with their own pronunciation, which is nowhere near how he pronounced it (including some letter combinations like mp and nt as well as all the diphthongs collapsed into i). The difference between pronunciations is like the difference between Classical and Ecclesiastical pronunciations.
An interesting thing I discovered about the different words for love in ancient Greek (my study was in Koine) and their meanings is that they passed their definitions around between them over time. Similar to how words like "nice" in English have changed from positive to negative meanings. Thus, the fact that they had more than one word ultimately didn't clarify things as much as we might think. I still get frustrated with people today abusing the word "love" by conflating its different meanings.
Metatron you are simply awesome. We need more people like you who don't give a damn about identity politics nonsense and only care about the truth
METATRON: "It's going to be a long one!"
ME: "That's what she said!"
Keep fighting the good fight, Metatron. True things are true regardless.
I will, and thanks for the support!
3:35 When he says "contemporary," I don't think he meant "modern," but rather "at that time"
Maybe they didn't have a word for sexual preferences because it wasn't considered a personal identity?
They despised the passive partner
Ancient Greece was far less conservative. We don't think it is OK to have slaves and violate them. They did, even children.
Our Metatron has spurred me to share me being pedantic... indoor plumbing was being used by the Harappan Civilisation in the Indus Valley a thousand - at LEAST - years before the Greeks stopped living in caves & hitting each other with sticks lol
He said Minoan. I'm not sure which civilization developed it first, but the Minoans were around at roughly the same time as the Indus Valley Civilization.
Shakespeare was a big one for bawdy humour!
I am so glad i found this channel
When I went to university I learned pretty quick that most professors do not know that much that is just slightly out of their lane. They'll add or subtract things that aren't real to fit their world view and teach it. Then you have another history class that refutes what your first professor said the previous semester... college taught me it's a waste of money and you're better off being self taught, reading and studying all of the available sources and not just a handful.
Couldn’t have said it better. It’s pretty bad when you know more than the teacher. When I mentioned the “Laws of Lycurgus” teacher looked at me with a blank stare.
30:40 Sounds like the writer is the type or person who says that, if you write about something, even if it's the explicitly evil dark lord doing it, then the author must believe and promote it.
Omgosh thank you, Metatron!!!
Stay based, my dear friends. ❤
Comedians making sexual jokes actually makes me think they used it, like today, for shock value.
Commenting for support
Thanks
Few seconds in "nonsense" 😂
That's how you know it's going to be a good video. 😂
"Let's now move to the second statement I would consider incorrect..."
*commercial starts
... 😶
yes seems legit.
If it was as normal as people makes it seem to be we would have a lot more writings and other various evidence of it rather than some vague translation from ancient greek to modern english.
I watched this video and the whole time was thinking "Oh man, I bet Metatron is going to have a field day with this one!" I'm so glad I was right.
Why did i get an advertisement for Grinder mid video. WTF.
That is a good point. Many nations have a word for homosexuality is used in everyday speech that has a completely nonsexualized meaning. For example gay in American English. So the Greeks could also have used a common word to describe it that has lost this part of its meaning over time.
I have a list of movies that I would love to give you so you could react to them. Most of these are old and here is the list; The 13th warrior, ironclad, medieval, Russell crowe's Robin Hood (this has historical themes such as the Magna Carta signing), there is a new TV show coming out it's I believe in Hungarian called rise of the Ravens which is about how Eastern Europe was able to stop the Ottoman empire and there's a trailer out right now and I really want to have you react to it. It has English subtitles.
Lyndibeige made a video on Ironclad. Lot of fun mocking the historical garbage it was.
If these things were so prevalent in Greek history; why is it that the Greek church fathers don't hardly touch the topic as if it was not so prevalent in the modern life?
Some of these ideals weren't popular back then aren't popular now and should probably be left in the trash where they belong
The trash = your face
@@user-ho9ui6wc2d thanks for letting us all know you're not intelligent enough to actually respond
Thanks! Sorry they demonetize you. Love your clarity 🙏🏽
So being against "boy love" is conservative now? Well, I guess I really am a conservative then.
Great, now I'm getting ads for Grindr
This guy essentially had made a video about and have debunked himself within the same video. You don't really have to make any additional research, just watch it to the end.
I mean he essentially oppose hard facts, law codes and written sources to his own doubt about severity of its enforcement.
"had made a video about and have "
Engrish hard.
You had the chance to quote the amazing quote from "The Life of Brian"!!! The scene when they asked about what the romans ever did for them...
He already referenced to it. But I guess way more subtly than you would have wanted it to be.
@@bozdogan_ oopsie doopsie...
@@bozdogan_ well... You are right... But I really would have loved him to make the whole quote... It would have been epic...
What did the Romans ever do for us...
apparently other men, if you believe the woke crowd
create the aquaducts, roads, proper policing the streets. and i forget the rest of life of brian joke.
True, the Greeks were somewhat conservative, especially if you are talking about being religious and traditional. Even in not being Christians, there was a strong sense of morality within Greek/Hellenic society. That's to be expected, as per the city-state held the νόμος (nómos), the law, rule, code, or 'norms' of the people within that city-state. These laws were regards to behaviors to either persuade or dissuade people doing things in order to keep the public unity. Plus this was long before state and religion being separate was a thing, so obeying the laws was obeying the gods. And yes, I do find it humorous that they think conservatives are humorless when it comes to sex or adult humor.
didn't we spend years with 'the left can't meme'? like I can tell you I know so many old people who they would considered biggoted assholes that love making adult jokes. they use to tiptoe around it when I was a kid and the older I got the more they relaxed about it.
That might the be problem. those people never grew up and learned their 'bigot' families were actually funny because they could never treat them like adults.
Why do they keep making up this shit? Stop trying to make everybody in the past gay.
Stop making everybody straight
@@user-ho9ui6wc2d lol. We never do!
@@nogood237 Evidently you've never heard of conversion therapy or any of the vast number of fanatics who have sought to eliminate homosexuality.
@@CorneliusHDybdahl how is that related? Eliminating homosexuality is not saying it wasn't always there.
@@nogood237 Eliminating homosexuality *is* "making everyone straight", which you said "we never do".
I'm not quite sure who you meant by "we" though. The people trying to "gaywash" history are radical left wingers, and it is not like there is a radical straight liberationist movement to compare with.
Teenage tactic on steroids - accuse everyone and everything of being sexual, then see what sticks.
It is the adults who accept what they judge fit.
May generosity continue to rise