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Mondragon 1908 Semiauto Rifles - 4 Different Examples
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ม.ค. 2016
- / forgottenweapons
Best known as the first semiautomatic service rifle adopted by a mainstream military force, the 1908 Mondragon was designed by Mexican native Manuel Mondragon, manufactured by SIG in Switzerland, and adopted by the Mexican Army (Ejercito Mexicano). The adoption was short lived, however, as the guns proved unreliable with the low-quality 7mm Mauser ammunition made in Mexico at the time (although they ran fine with high-quality European ammo).
After a partial delivery, Mexico refused to pay for or accept delivery of more, and this left SIG in an awkward position. They would try to sell the rifles for several year, including an attempt to market them to Germany during WWI as aviators' rifles, with detachable magazines and brass-catching bags. No significant purchases resulted, though.
In this video I will examine 4 different examples of the Mondragon:
* A prototype 1900 model self-loader, which uses the 1908-style action but with en bloc clips instead of stripper clips
* A Mexican-issue 1908, complete with bipod and spade bayonet
* A 1908 rebarreled in 8mm Mauser and send to Germany during WWI
* A standard 1908 updated by SIG and never sold
From 1910 to around 1927 Mexico was going through a civil war called "the revolution" in Mexico and the new government that replaced Porfirio Díaz thought that many of his projects were overly lavish and stopped many treaties and business deal that he had made with foreign countries including European ones there for the reason Mexico didn't pay for the rifles.
Yep, Mexico was the first country to adopt (Field Test) a Battle Rifle. I knew that, but I didn't know about the Trowel Bayonette.
A little more on Manuel Mondragón
-Mondragón was a Porfirio Díaz Follower and worked in his government, that is probably why he named it Fusil Porfirio Díaz.
-When Porfirio Díaz was overthtrown and the new president, Francisco I. Madero, was elected he was one of the leaders of the revolt that culminated in Madero's death and the installation of a new dictatorship by Victoriano Huerta, which made the revolution to last another 8 more years.
-Huerta exiled him when he wasn't able to defeat the revolutionaries. He left to France, where he passed away.
-His daughter, Carmen Mondragon, is a renowned Mexican poet and painter.
When gun jesus says he's excited, you better be excited.
Gun Jesus!😂
I've always been curious to see what a gladius would look like on a rifle. This helps.
Funny the comment of perhaps finding one of these spade bayos in some garden shed in Mexico because I found a Springfield spade bayonet at a flea market that was offered as a garden tool, which of course I bought for a mere two dollars. In spite of having some surface rust and some wear from being used as a gardening tool I was able to clean it up and it's now part of my collection of interesting and unusual stuff.
Lucky!
so mexico had the most advanced rifle for ww1 time?
Yes
Yep.
yes
Yep.
Yeah
Mondragon also designed a howitzer that damage a u.s navy ship during an attempt by the U.S. to land troops in mexico on the Pacific coastline near the port of salinas Cruz.( it was Mexican designed German build.)
Mexicans and germans would make a good breed
That actually didn't happen, I know the history but is stupid and had a lot of inconsistence about what happen.
Yes and then Obregón sold it to turkey by US pressure and in order for the US to recognize him as president.
@@Cholimao if unfortunately the only evidence is Porfirio Díaz talking about the cannon in his biography and a couple of photographs of the naval cannon
I guess the US Navy will have records of the event if it existed
Mondragon was of Spanish descent
If you missed your shots at the enemy at least you could use the bayonet to plant a few tulip bulbs before you bought the farm.
thank you Forgotten Weapons for show me closely a mondragon rifle, I'm mexican and I realy liked this video ;)
Mondragon sounds so cool because I always think Moondragon :P
XD
Lmao, i use that name like a nick, but my nick is MonDragoon
XD
Aircraft in WWI (and WWII, for that matter) did not have solid floors, so in addition to the hot brass distraction issues, brass dropped could fall through the floor and roll around underneath where it could potentially get tangled up in cables or bell cranks, potentially interfering with flight controls.
Amen to that! A cartridge caught under a rudder pedal would ruin your day
So advanced they cancelled the order/sold them and people never knew of it's existence until a video game that came out in 2016.
Rob Lowe still most advanced so what's the point of your brain - dead comment
Gun Sense (drmaudio) No solid floor for WW2 planes? O_o
Goes to show how amazingly Rube Goldberg early versions of various things are. Such as airplanes, and those weird semi auto conversions of bolt action rifles.
Yes, even today in an aircraft which uses exposed cables and rods for control surface connection (nearly all sailplanes), an important preflight check is to check for and clear any loose articles or debris inside the cockpit. The brass could jam controls, just like mud and sand could jam the rifles.
Very neat and very Swiss. I like the possibility of disconnecting the bolt from the oprod and not having to work against the main spring when manually cycling the rifle. No Mondragon thumb😀
These are actually really cool rifles and I'm kind of actually even digging that bayonet and bipod they put on them, and think it would be cool to own one with the detachable magazine even with the drum magazine it'd still be a pretty badass rifle by today's standards especially in 8 mm Mauser.
10:25 I Love how When he drops it he stops Talking and you hear an exhale like - fucking shit im gona have to pay that...
Very clever bayonet.. Also functions as an ice cream scoop ;)
Well, it does get hot in Mexico, makes sense to have an ice cream scoop with your rifle 😆
Another fascinating offering - thanks!!
It's always interesting to see how the designers worked their way through challenges - in this case the ingenious design where the emptied clip would just fall through that slot in the bottom of the housing. Simple yet effective.
This is such a fascinating video. I've seen it before in the past, but it still holds up to the new content.
I bet Ian's getting an overdose of battlefield 1 related comments at the moment :)
Yeah and I bet aside from the bump in the search algorithms, he's probably annoyed as fuck with them.
EthanE3Eves he helped the creators of bf1 withe research and I think he is in the credits or something
Great info to finish out the Mondragon story. I love this stuff
Dice.
Wheres the factory variant of the mondragon
Another great upload, even that weird bit in the middle. Keep up the good work, it's always nice to find high quality educational content.
That's a sexy Victorian, Edwardian era rifle!!!...wow Mexico is full of surprises and talented people...and speaking about firearms I bet there should be more as well as high caliber guns
I cannot lie I'd love to have one of these rifles!
Looove the thoroughness!
Thanks Ian. I’ve enjoyed the video very much. I’m looking forward to see a video about the Mendoza LMG used by the Mexican Army. By the way Mondragón is stressed at the last syllable hence the ó.
Greetings from 🇲🇽
Thanks for the video very informative!
Trowel bionet was a smart add on considering it was ww1 the trench war a lot of digging was needed 😁
One of the few proud moments in Mexico's history is general Mondragon's development of the Mondragon rifle. Aw yeah. Figures it was made during the Porfiriato.
Great vid btw. This is real history being taught here.
Can your videos get any cooler! keep up the outstanding work
I astounding information! You are definitely quite knowledgeable!
Perfect timing IAN after BF1! I'm super thankful for these videos after seeing them in BF1. Video games are what sparked my interest. I now own several milsurp rifles.
congrats on the popular mechanics article!!!!!!!!
good work guys :D
This is so cool ian
@forgottenweapons The German Flieger-Selbstlade-Karabiner M1915 were issued with drum magazines, the "Trommelmagazin Fur F.S.K." according to "Military Rifles Of Two World Wars by John Walter. He gives no stats on numbers, though. Ever heard of or seen one before?
The option that might have worked but was missed is offering these rifles to Serbia just after the Balkan wars. The Serbs already used 7mm Mauser (in fact as I remember they had something to do with that cartridge existing.) Also post Balkan Wars they were looking at more rifles and the Mondragon is short rifle length and likely available in the numbers needed for cavalry carbine replacements.
Quick, into the time machine!
People should check the ballistics on the 7mm Mauser. It's pretty good and would have been better than 8mm Kurz or 7.62x39 as an assault rifle caliber. Pretty close to the 6.8 SPC
It's really interesting to see some of the similarities the Mondragon has to the M1 Garand which was adopted by the USA in 1936.
i hope one day you can do videos on smith & wesson's lesser known and rare revolvers
I've heard of a fully automatic select fire variant of this rifle similar to the Fedorov Avtomat. Do you believe that could be accurate?
when you showed the bolt on the Spanish Mod. 1908 the hammer stamp on the base of the bolt handle looks a lot like the Tula hammer you find on Mosins 12:27
I just watch the video now. It's a sad story, the rifle is beautiful (... especially the one with detachable magazine ...) and Mondragón didn't deserve that unfair fate.
Many thanks for your excellent job, as usual, "Gun Jesus"..!
Kind regards..!
Thank You for creating this video. Very organized and informative. One observation is that Manuel Mondragón was in fact the designer of the rifle. You mention that Mexicans adopted the rifle, when in fact this was a fully Mexican creation. Also, you didn't mention that Mondragón was Mexican. SIG negotiated a patent rights to produce the rifle. All along the rifle has been of Mexican design and function . Thank You.
Dionisio Tato he talks about all that in the older video he made about the rifle
Mexican ARMY adopted the Mexican rifle, designed by a Mexican. Same as the US Army ADOPTING the American Garand, designed by an American.
"Adopted" just means "they decided to use it."
@@twirlipofthemists3201 John Garand was Canadian
Wow, I was watching the video on the scoti (sorry if I spelled it wrong) when I began thinking about the Mondragon. Then, I scrolled down and saw this video.
Hello I have a .22 BSA single shot cadets rifle in made in 1908 so you have any one of them or any idea?
Mondragon is such an awesome rifle name. Just like the name Mexicans gave the AK47 that is pretty much the definition of it down south which they call "Cuerno de Chivo".
se le dice cuerno de chivo por la forma del cargador jajajaja, a demás no solo es "cuerno de chivo" en español se escucha intimidarte cuando dices : A KA CUARENTA Y SIETE, apoco no? jajaj saludos
Was there any consideration for the Mondragon rifle during the self loading rifle trials? Not necessarily as a rifle to be adopted, but perhaps as an operating system or overall design to consider as a baseline.
Reminds me of the m14
awesome
This channel its so underated
Is the 1908 perhaps the first military rifle with a fixed bipod? I find no earlier examples.
IIRC, the one you videoed at RIA a while back had Mexican markings and the later style bolt handle with the "safety button". I'm guessing that one was sent back to Sig to be upgraded. Does that seem to show up frequently?
+104jones I don't really know - I haven't seen enough examples to get a good notion of a trend.
+Forgotten Weapons hey Ian what is the best way to get your attention on comments we post that include questions we have for you? (I'm talking about my design change ideas comment that I just posted)
+Forgotten Weapons THESE are simply beautiful rifles especially that 1908 with the spade bayonet and bipod. I wish I had enough money to purchase a copy of the design blueprints and pay someone to redesign that rifle for .308 lapua. with the addition of a 10-20 round detachable box magazine and picatinny railing for scope mounting. I think this design has a lot of potential as a DMR or sniper's rifle if it were give the changes I mentioned. I also would love to hear an expert's opinion on would have happened had this rifle been chambered in .303 British or thirty-ot-six and issued by the Americans or the British during the Great War. With trowel bayonet I imagine it would have been a Western Front classic. Ian your thoughts on these things?
+Matt Dickson Don;t worry about the money; I doubt any blueprints for the Mondragon exist anymore. I think that in practical terms, a newly-made Mondragon would have no advantage over an AR-10. As for WWI, I don't think any change in small arms would have made a substantial impact on the war's outcome. That was dictated by larger factors, from artillery and barbed wire to supply logistics.
+Matt Dickson I read comments as much as I can and answer the ones that I can, but I have a lot of other things demanding time, and can't make any guarantees.
I am pretty sure the Chinese KMT bought some of these and equipped their germanize unit. They were used in Shanghai
What is the operating mechanism of this gun? Long stroke piston/op rod? Short stroke piston? Did I miss it?
I love this gun!
Stupid question maybe, but how does this rifle stack up against something like a Gewehr 41 or a 43?
The 41 and 43 are both better guns, the 43 much better.
Mexican 7 x 57 mm ammunition of the day sucks. We used to ocasionally find this ammo in Spain as part of the aid the mexican gave Spain at he begining of the Spanish civil war. It was reporterdely inconsistent in load, bullets and corrosive. If you shoot this in mauser bolt action repeting rifle it is not much of a problem but obviously not in a semiautomatic
+Miguel Ángel Simón Fernández Interesting - George Orwell wrote in Homage to Catalonia that it was amongst the better quality ammunition that could be found, along with German ammunition captured from the Nationalists.
Maybe the quality varied between shipments that ended up in different areas, or something.
Probably because it was being made by factories that had cure sly and recently been assembled in the middle of the Mex revolution.
You are shooting hundred years old ammo!!! Of course not the best now, last time Spain military used it in combat was in the Ifni war in 1957.
Does anyone understand the benefit of that hook on the changing handle?
I mean, ok, the user doesn't have to pull the gas system rod (?) along with the bolt when operating manually, but why would it be even be an issue in the first place?
It's so you can run the gun as a straight pull bolt action rifle incase the gassystem fails
Beautiful weapon. What is price typically for this?
is their one that can actually fire?
this shit go hard in bf1
hell yeah, I remember I got 30 to 8 with this gun. Probably the best gun in battlefield
You kinda switched your story with those front controls compared to the first Mondragon semi auto vid you made :3
+Viraqua I am always learning.
Aren't we all. You had me convinced afterall.
i can't wait to use this in battlefield 1 by the way nice spanish
How much cost one Mondragón riffle?
Was the 1908 version the first one to be semi-auto, or were there previous semi-auto versions in the 1890s alongside the bolt-action ones?
+Nick Galbraith first their was the bolt action..... that was it... only bolt actions.
then in 1908, they made a semi auto version, and then they kept making changes to it as the years went by.
+Nick Galbraith Well, there is the 1900 pattern semiauto in this video...
+Forgotten Weapons Ah, re-watched the video. Thanks.
are you at Sig in these vids ?
Am I missing something, or the gun was perfectly fine (as far as early 20th century semi-auto rifles go) and the problem was solely on the Mexican side with bad ammo?
You are missing that it kicks like a race horse and the action is very prone to catching dirt and getting clogging up. Good luck cleaning that in the field. It was also twice as expensive as a bolt action rifle. This rifle is a typical example of "a lot of good ideas, and some dumb ones that ruined it"
You said the reason these really didn't get bought by any militaries after Mexico was because they could be unreliable and 7mm wasn't all that popular. But wouldn't the primary reason simply be the stigma and bias against semi auto adoption during that time?
THESE are simply beautiful rifles especially that 1908 with the spade bayonet and bipod. I wish I had enough money to purchase a copy of the design blueprints and pay someone to redesign that rifle for .308 lapua. with the addition of a 10-20 round detachable box magazine and picatinny railing for scope mounting. I think this design has a lot of potential as a DMR or sniper's rifle if it were give the changes I mentioned. I also would love to hear an expert's opinion on would have happened had this rifle been chambered in .303 British or thirty-ot-six and issued by the Americans or the British during the Great War. With trowel bayonet I imagine it would have been a Western Front classic. Ian your thoughts on these things?
+Matt Dickson .308 lapua? u mean .338 lapua right? and what does this gun provide. that the M14A1 did not. If you just want a Swisz made DMR there are better options out there.
+jegergladformad86 Because why not?
.308 lapua seriously? you mean .308 winchester or .338 lapua magnum? two majorly different carts 308 is 7.62 nato 338 is a way bigger round
+Filadelfo Zuñiga get a swiss k31 they are said to be one of the best mil surps for under 500
There is no surplus in my country sadly. I dont agree with the mondragon dmr idea, just saying that if ever have the money and still want to, why not? Even if he fail it would be interesting. I mean lever actions are absolete as well but we dont go telling people to just get a semiauto.
Could you imagine getting stuck with that bayonet? Ouch.
+RonJohn63 Sharpen the edges and I am sure it would go very easily into you belly . Probably wont penetrate your rib cage or skull though. But imagine a big wide wound like that in your guts from a blade that has been contaminated with trench mud and antibiotics are not going to be invented for another 30 years.
RonJohn63 Ouch.
MrMonkeybat Ouch.
I think it was meant to be used as a shovel
@@isaacdiezdebonilla7538 It was, most armies used to issue trowels and I believe still do. The idea was soldiers can use them to dig trenches or latrines. But the US Army and apparently the Mexican army, thought it was a good idea to make them bayonets to conserve resources. However soldiers thought the idea was using the rifle as a long handle and dig that way but the designers intended for you to take it off and use it as a trowel. Now the idea was flawed to begin with, as army trowels are super profitable as surplus, people will pay back the production cost if it meant they got a trowel for a few dollars cheaper. Which is why so many of these trowel bayonets and regular military trowels are found inside of garden sheds today.
goofy idea - might that trowel bayonet reduce dust kicked up by muzzle blast over loose soil?? (or snow?)
Please talk about the Mendoza C-1934
The fact that the Swiss didn't completely document their sales and production seems so wrong even if it's true. They're the Swiss after all.
+Sebastian Ernstlos
Being that its the Swiss, I'm confident they did, but that was a century ago. Most likely the documentation was lost or destroyed over the years.
lawrence brom
That'll probably the case. I didn't even really think about that.
+lawrence brom
As far as I know, the entire factory went bust decades ago
phileas007
Nah man. SIG built this. They are the national swiss arms supplier.
+Sebastian Ernstlos
I checked again. SIG was sold in 2000. Not sure about the factory in Neuhausen, but as far as I know once the Swiss military bought all their stgw90s the factory had almost nothing left to do.
In Mexico we continue to have the same problem with the manufacture of ammunition. The FN 240B always jams when using Mexican ammo, it only works well when using Belgian ammo. I remember only special operators use Belgian ammunition, the rest use shitty ammo.
Can you talk more about the general?
ok i know this is possibly a stupid question but are these your rifles ian?
Lawrence Glover you're right, stupid question.
I’ll take em all....Thanks 😁
this gun is awesome in BF1
majer gamer505 The Cei-Rigotti #Masterweapon
Mondragon all day! It is my favorite semi auto.
I'm on PS4, I have problems aiming with it, it seems like my bullets never hit. They always miss, when I'm aiming at the person? Is it lag issues?
Interesting
Viva mi General Porfirio Diaz !!!
Era un dictador y era una vergüenza para México
@@Patrick-ks3pt era un mal para el pueblo pero desfortunadamente tenia muy buena idea de que lugar mexico ocupa a nivel mundial hoy ya no se ve nada de esa mentalidad en la politica mexicana
Im from south america Ian, your spanish is good :P
Gracias!
oh such a missed oppertunity, you should have sais "merci!"
tedobs wtf?
There's one of these beautiful rifles at the NRA Museum here in VA and I wish for nothing more than to handle one for a few minutes. Alas the best I can do is gawk at it though the glass
Way better "uses as a single shot" system than the overly complicated crazy Mauser solution. Now I say this knowing that their solution was made the way it was to please the government that had a list if desires.
How does the dirtier ammo cause it to fail?
+Trump Knows Best You're Fired! Not necessarily dirtier, but made to looser tolerances. Greater variation in powder charge, OAL, etc.
+Trump Knows Best You're Fired! To make them better, or to cater to specific contract requirements, which may or may not correlate with better guns.
Pronounced: mon-dra-GOHN.
He pronounces it pretty well once, when he reads the markings in Spanish.
Mon-dra-gone
Mon-dra-gun
Moon-dragon
what kind of failures did this rifle actually have? You did not mention them which I find a little odd Ian....you normally would include that yes? Im talking breakage not ammo malfuntion here....
heavy recoil, action easily catches dirt, difficult to maintain, expensive
Can someone please explain the purpose of this weird bayonet desing??
Probable an effort to eliminate the need to carry a spade to dig foxholes. Not a good idea since you probably can't keep soil from cramming into the bore and it's not wide enough to move a lot of soil.and maybe bend the barrel to boot.
Let's just say that Mondragon's rifle was the ak 47 of ww1 because it was the most successful rifle and where other countries outside of mexico and germany had it.
Could you showcase a full-auto Mondragon?
Is that a later model of rifle?
I do believe that fully-automatic Mondragons were not produced until around 1910.
Thought my phone was getting a call. Turns out of was someone else's phone in the video
i love bf1 forever. beautiful
They sure don't make things like they used to very beautiful rifle
Ian's twin brother strikes again, unannounced! ;)
Heard that some of the mondragon rifles served in china during 1930’s
I'd run screaming like a little girl if I saw someone coming at me with that bayonet fixed.
That rifle it was the equal as a laser rifle in our time
That's a pretty self-loader for 1900. Wowee. The Mexicans really should have tried to make it work.
What is the oldest gun he's showen?
+Abyssaljam Off the top of my head, probably the Lorenzoni repeating flintlock revolver, which dated to the 1680s.
th-cam.com/video/J_hnC6x036Q/w-d-xo.html
+Forgotten Weapons Thanks am clicking that link right now.
wish i can afford one of them.....