Alternating back and forward strokes would be interesting to see data on when compared to all front strokes. I wonder if back dragging would act like a honing strop and keep the blade edge longer
Thanks! Another non issue I can stop thinking about... So I can get back to focusing on working the wood! Thank you for laying this to rest!! (no pun intended)
Hi James, here's my opinion on back-dragging... It is well known that in the absence of leather for stropping, a piece of wood or ply (even without compound) will do as a compromise. Therefore, back-dragging is - if anything - more likely prolong the life of a dulling edge, rather than damage it or wear it out quicker...!
in a way it does :D after sharpening and honing i put a tiny bit of linseed oil on my workbench and strop my irons and chisels AND it does make them sharper
I pick them up because that's how grandad taught me with the joiner and foreplane likely because as transitionals it saves a tiny bit of wear to the sole.
A convincing result. Dragging back the plane is basically like stropping at a ~10° higher angle than ideal. Wood isn't abrasive enough to result in a back bevel doing this, so no harm done. It might even keep you going a bit longer with really poor steel prone to rounding over edges.
Wrong! : wood contains a lot of cellulose, and various minerals, it's why steel, carbon steel, Japanese steel, stainless steel, et al gets dull 🥴, I have always "back dragged" my planes, you're stropping as you work. Go to a real barber, they will leather strop before, during and after a shave 💈.
It depends on the wood; some are more abrasive. I did a lot of woodworking at a shop in college. I asked the staff why they don’t stock teak. The answer was that it is extremely abrasive; dulls the tools quickly.
Amazing timing! After several years of woodworking without giving this a single thought, only this morning did I for the first time wonder if backtracking had any impact on my blade! Thank you for removing that little doubt this fast 😂
I think the lack of significant dulling is good enough, but by isolating the back drag alone, it wasn’t addressing the meaningful question. Rather than measuring the effects of back dragging alone, which doesn’t happen in real life, a more meaningful test would be whether or not it makes a difference to back drag while cutting in comparison to picking the plane up. Measurements from a control run of picking up between passes could be compared to the experimental run of backdragging between passes to see what whether it makes a measurable difference.
I really enjoy these types of videos - testing "common knowledge" ideas. My immediate thought when you first started the testing was that you couldn't account for the wear from the forward set strokes as a confounding variable. But you corrected for that in the second round of tests, so well done.
I am wondering about testing without the back dragging. I am new to hand planes, maybe 2 years. Most of the time on longer pieces, I will back drag, and on shorter pieces, I don't back drag. Interesting also, would be to see how the newer metals hold up, and maybe even a Japanese style plane. Some day, I plan to make a push style Japanese plane.....
Been back dragging all along and really haven't noticed any difference in usage. Great to see some numbers. What actually makes sense to me is if you plotted dulling vs push strokes, it would probably drop off rapidly and then asymptotically approach some dull. Really puts to question how much worth there is in getting that ultra sharpness if it drops off to just "sharp" after a handful of strokes.
I would imagine how worth the sharpness is depends on what you're doing. If you're doing a finishing pass, you want that as sharp as possible and it doesn't really matter how annoying it is to sharpen, it'd be worth it. If you're doing a scrub plane, as WBW has mentioned he rarely ever sharpens those. There's also the point to consider that if it's taking more than a certain number of strokes to get a piece down then you're probably not using a course enough plane.
Great video video, have you thought about testing different blade angles on bevel down planes? I have every blade I use at 30° and am too lazy to switch some of them, but if there is anyone who would empirically test how much longer an edge last and how hard it is to push after skipping to 40°, it would be you.
Yes. I did that in a previous test the higher the angle the longer the edge lasts. And most of the time you won't see any difference in blade engagement down to about 35 degrees. If you go down to 40 you'll start to notice that sometimes it takes a little bit more work for the blade to dive into the work. So all of my irons now are sharpened somewhere between 30 and 35° ish.
I can see where it might induce a little bit of wear. However on a very sharp blade. When you back drag the iron it might knock that fine wire hair that occurs before your supposed to strop the iron. Under normal conditions i don’t think it’s that noticeable to the longevity of a sharp edge! Obviously if you have some grit in the wood that is always a factor!
May want to remove the shaving with your hand before pulling back, but certainly eliminates some risks in how you set the plane down. Not really surprised by the result, but good to have some data to back it up.
Idea for video topic. Do you firmly strop or lightly strop to sharpen and resharpen. I've seen some very experienced wood workers, cabinet makers and carvers heavily strop on a board to resharpen. I did with disappointing and confounding results. Then I watched a video by Katz_Moses proving that repeated stropping gets less sharp. I hypothesised that heavy stropping depresses that leather which rounds over the edge no matter how hard the leather is (it'll depress microscopically). Very light stropping does not depress the leather and depress the edge, hence, it improves edge. I now get quite a few stroppings (?) before I need to return to the diamonds. This is my recent experience. You could use that sharp meter to test this hypothesis.
Well, back dragging kind of polishes the edge a bit I would say. Kind of like stropping it on the wood surface. I would like to see if there is much difference in straight forward vs canting the plane up to 45 degrees on the push stroke. I've seen a lot of other channels claim the push stroke is easier and cleaner with a canted plane.❤
Thanks for the test! Pretty much confirmed what I was expecting. And was that the first "real" video from your new shop? Really like the new shop because with all the tools in the back it feels a lot like the old 😂
I guess I'm kind of a nerd when it comes to these tests. I like the process and finding the results. Aside from actually dropping my plane, I'm really not concerned with the way I set it down or back tracking thanks to your videos. I have seen alot of videos about cleaning up a flea market plane, how when you need to lap the sole all of the parts need to be in place so it doesn't warp or whatever. But there's a guy who used to make plane restoration videos who said that it didn't matter. I don't know if this would require a deep dive, but it would be interesting to see the differences between two planes that were lapped with and without all of the parts.
I wonder if the results wood be different on exotic woods that are known for dulling blades easily. I'm pretty sure some species actually are abrasive due to silica or something like that. Even then, the back dragging would probably only contribute a very small amount to the dulling of the blade if I had to guess.
It seems to me that back dragging would actually help instead of hurting the plane iron. Back dragging after planing seems like stropping. Planing would tend to curve the edge of the blade back, and backdragging would straighten that edge. I think a different test of this effect would be planing for 20 or 40 strokes compared to planing and back dragging for the same number of strokes. I do think your results give some sense of the effects of back dragging, which is not much.
Cool test but different results may occur with different irons, tools, woods, and users. I think I will just do what I want and resharpen as necessary. Thanks for doing it, I like that you have data to at least debunk the myth in your experiment.
Consider that lifting up and moving back might increase risk of putting the plane back on the surface and accidentally damaging the surface. Dragging back mostly eliminates that possibility.
What about different woods? I assume that this test is done on a pine. But for example oak has silica in it. How would the silica effect the testing?! Would love to get some statistics about.
It would seem to me that the way back dragging occurs in normal use is One Forward / One Back. A test comparing One Forward/Lift/Return with One Forward/One Back would give better results. Just my opinion.
In my experience back dragging doesn't dull my blades but instead "grinds" a micro bevel parallel to the sole. I was dumbfounded as a beginner, as my blades were sharp, but weren't engaging the wood. The plane would even teeter on the blade, still refusing to cut. After a good sharpening it was back to normal. This effect was most noticeable on dirty and rough lumber, and on those I never back drag now. On clean, smooth and soft woods however, I find the effect is less tangible.
For me, back dragging was never about dulling the blade; it's about precision. I have the sense (though not the proof) that back dragging results in sloppier work. There's something about taking the time to lift the plane and carry it back that causes me to take more care about positioning the plane for the next stroke. In some cases, like using a scrub plane to transition from a hewn surface to a more refined surface, I do back drag, though I know it is morally wrong. However, this sin is expunged when I switch to a smoothing plane and finish the surface ethically.
You mentioned that you intentionally pressed down on the plane as you dragged it back. Did you continue this on the 400 only back drag only test? If yes, then the amount of dulling may actually be less under normal use conditions. I do not see a way to extrapolate the numbers, but I also think it’s pointless to rerun the test. I believe too many people have become legalistic with hand tools. Too many you should never, or it’s wrong, or whatever absolute “truths” they’re selling. For me? I just enjoy designing and making my furniture, or whatever project I fancy. If my plane bevel is between 25-35 degrees, and it’s taking shavings, I’m stoked. If I only sharpen to 1200 “grit”, who cares as long as I’m getting a clean surface. The wood working community needs to get back to making for the enjoyment of the craft, not applying precision engineering standards to hand work.
But what if you back drag the plane and then set it on it's side. I've heard that will sharpen the blade all by itself - some guy on the 'net probably.
And after 20 forward and 400 backwards on a handsharpened iron, it was still sharper than the starting value of the machine sharpened. Guess it comes down to your wrist.
I think it's good practice to not back drag purely because if you have the wood clamped sure it's not going anywhere, but if you're planing against a stop or a dog, back dragging may move your piece around more than necessary, rather than saving time on sharpening it's saving time on repositioning.
imagine dragging back on sandpaper, is the iron going to get dull? No it will not, at least not in the sharpness test, but will the Iron still cut in the plane? Definitively not, because what you are doing essentially is sharpening at the exact bed angle, and we all know what happens when you sharpen at the angle of the bed or higher. So this may actually be worse than it seems.
The iron still cut just perfectly fine. On the first test I was still taking a pass on it every 20 strokes. And even looking at it under a microscope afterwards you didn't see any ware on the tip or a new bevel.
Wife: Honey, when are you finishing the projects you started?
Me: James proved dragging does not change the result.
I love the fact that there is a home for people who want to spreadsheet back dragging.
Spreadsheets have been the language of manufacturing for decades! We couldn’t do anything unless the spreadsheet told us to! Lol
Alternating back and forward strokes would be interesting to see data on when compared to all front strokes.
I wonder if back dragging would act like a honing strop and keep the blade edge longer
I agree. Very possible!
I like small amounts of your tests and enjoy linearly logic.
Thanks! Another non issue I can stop thinking about... So I can get back to focusing on working the wood!
Thank you for laying this to rest!!
(no pun intended)
Hi James, here's my opinion on back-dragging...
It is well known that in the absence of leather for stropping, a piece of wood or ply (even without compound) will do as a compromise. Therefore, back-dragging is - if anything - more likely prolong the life of a dulling edge, rather than damage it or wear it out quicker...!
I am a little bit disappointed. The child in me would have found it funny if back dragging would have sharpened the blade.
That could actually be measured and put into exel, just a hint :D
Depending on the type of wood! This could be a doable thing! Probably not! But it would be a nice idea!
Iron doesn’t sharpen iron!
in a way it does :D after sharpening and honing i put a tiny bit of linseed oil on my workbench and strop my irons and chisels AND it does make them sharper
I pick them up because that's how grandad taught me with the joiner and foreplane likely because as transitionals it saves a tiny bit of wear to the sole.
love data driven decisions, thanks for doing some science!
A convincing result. Dragging back the plane is basically like stropping at a ~10° higher angle than ideal. Wood isn't abrasive enough to result in a back bevel doing this, so no harm done. It might even keep you going a bit longer with really poor steel prone to rounding over edges.
Wrong! : wood contains a lot of cellulose, and various minerals, it's why steel, carbon steel, Japanese steel, stainless steel, et al gets dull 🥴, I have always "back dragged" my planes, you're stropping as you work.
Go to a real barber, they will leather strop before, during and after a shave 💈.
It depends on the wood; some are more abrasive.
I did a lot of woodworking at a shop in college. I asked the staff why they don’t stock teak. The answer was that it is extremely abrasive; dulls the tools quickly.
Thank you! I've been back-draging for years and feeling guilty about it. You have eased my conscience immeasurably.
Nah! Deep inside you still know it's wrong.
Amazing timing! After several years of woodworking without giving this a single thought, only this morning did I for the first time wonder if backtracking had any impact on my blade!
Thank you for removing that little doubt this fast 😂
I love reading minds!
I think the lack of significant dulling is good enough, but by isolating the back drag alone, it wasn’t addressing the meaningful question. Rather than measuring the effects of back dragging alone, which doesn’t happen in real life, a more meaningful test would be whether or not it makes a difference to back drag while cutting in comparison to picking the plane up. Measurements from a control run of picking up between passes could be compared to the experimental run of backdragging between passes to see what whether it makes a measurable difference.
On the plane iron test I picked it up every time so that's why I used it as the control comparison. That's the top set of tests in the spreadsheet.
I really enjoy these types of videos - testing "common knowledge" ideas. My immediate thought when you first started the testing was that you couldn't account for the wear from the forward set strokes as a confounding variable. But you corrected for that in the second round of tests, so well done.
As the biggest data lover/nerd, I deeply appreciate: "Nothing is known unless you pull out a spreadsheet" ❤
Great test. It was needed by the fraternity.
Always interesting to see you’re test, even better spreadsheets. I like your gray (grey) scale and color card.
Cool test and interesting results. Thanks!
The new shop looks excellent! Thank you for these wonderful tests!
Thanks for verifying what I assumed already.
I am wondering about testing without the back dragging. I am new to hand planes, maybe 2 years. Most of the time on longer pieces, I will back drag, and on shorter pieces, I don't back drag. Interesting also, would be to see how the newer metals hold up, and maybe even a Japanese style plane. Some day, I plan to make a push style Japanese plane.....
Been back dragging all along and really haven't noticed any difference in usage. Great to see some numbers. What actually makes sense to me is if you plotted dulling vs push strokes, it would probably drop off rapidly and then asymptotically approach some dull. Really puts to question how much worth there is in getting that ultra sharpness if it drops off to just "sharp" after a handful of strokes.
I would imagine how worth the sharpness is depends on what you're doing. If you're doing a finishing pass, you want that as sharp as possible and it doesn't really matter how annoying it is to sharpen, it'd be worth it. If you're doing a scrub plane, as WBW has mentioned he rarely ever sharpens those. There's also the point to consider that if it's taking more than a certain number of strokes to get a piece down then you're probably not using a course enough plane.
Cold hard verified facts, what's not to love 😊
Very proud to be a patron of this channel
Thank you James!!!
Fantastic testing, James! Thanks a bunch! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
**Homer Simpson voice** Mmmmm spreadsheets.
I have been wondering about this, so perfect timing lol.
Science! Way to rock it!
Great video video, have you thought about testing different blade angles on bevel down planes? I have every blade I use at 30° and am too lazy to switch some of them, but if there is anyone who would empirically test how much longer an edge last and how hard it is to push after skipping to 40°, it would be you.
Yes. I did that in a previous test the higher the angle the longer the edge lasts. And most of the time you won't see any difference in blade engagement down to about 35 degrees. If you go down to 40 you'll start to notice that sometimes it takes a little bit more work for the blade to dive into the work. So all of my irons now are sharpened somewhere between 30 and 35° ish.
I can see where it might induce a little bit of wear. However on a very sharp blade. When you back drag the iron it might knock that fine wire hair that occurs before your supposed to strop the iron.
Under normal conditions i don’t think it’s that noticeable to the longevity of a sharp edge!
Obviously if you have some grit in the wood that is always a factor!
Really thought it would affect the blade more, like rounding the edge instead of taking off the burr kind of thing. Good test James
thanks and hi from RSA
Ooh, a nice oooold 5 1/2. Beautiful! (except that adjuster...I know it works well, but aesthetically...)
Oh no, you forgot to include: 20 years wood worker against 1 month wood worker! Now your system is flawed. Great video - enjoy the new shop.
Thanks James.
Thanks for sharing that, it is good to know!
Love the science stuff. 🤙
May want to remove the shaving with your hand before pulling back, but certainly eliminates some risks in how you set the plane down. Not really surprised by the result, but good to have some data to back it up.
Idea for video topic. Do you firmly strop or lightly strop to sharpen and resharpen. I've seen some very experienced wood workers, cabinet makers and carvers heavily strop on a board to resharpen. I did with disappointing and confounding results. Then I watched a video by Katz_Moses proving that repeated stropping gets less sharp. I hypothesised that heavy stropping depresses that leather which rounds over the edge no matter how hard the leather is (it'll depress microscopically). Very light stropping does not depress the leather and depress the edge, hence, it improves edge. I now get quite a few stroppings (?) before I need to return to the diamonds. This is my recent experience. You could use that sharp meter to test this hypothesis.
Well, back dragging kind of polishes the edge a bit I would say. Kind of like stropping it on the wood surface.
I would like to see if there is much difference in straight forward vs canting the plane up to 45 degrees on the push stroke.
I've seen a lot of other channels claim the push stroke is easier and cleaner with a canted plane.❤
"Avradge!" You monster!
Great test!
Thanks James
You n your spreadsheets lol love em and realy appreciate them tks!!
Thanks for the test! Pretty much confirmed what I was expecting. And was that the first "real" video from your new shop? Really like the new shop because with all the tools in the back it feels a lot like the old 😂
I guess I'm kind of a nerd when it comes to these tests. I like the process and finding the results. Aside from actually dropping my plane, I'm really not concerned with the way I set it down or back tracking thanks to your videos.
I have seen alot of videos about cleaning up a flea market plane, how when you need to lap the sole all of the parts need to be in place so it doesn't warp or whatever. But there's a guy who used to make plane restoration videos who said that it didn't matter. I don't know if this would require a deep dive, but it would be interesting to see the differences between two planes that were lapped with and without all of the parts.
I wonder if the results wood be different on exotic woods that are known for dulling blades easily. I'm pretty sure some species actually are abrasive due to silica or something like that. Even then, the back dragging would probably only contribute a very small amount to the dulling of the blade if I had to guess.
It seems to me that back dragging would actually help instead of hurting the plane iron. Back dragging after planing seems like stropping. Planing would tend to curve the edge of the blade back, and backdragging would straighten that edge. I think a different test of this effect would be planing for 20 or 40 strokes compared to planing and back dragging for the same number of strokes. I do think your results give some sense of the effects of back dragging, which is not much.
Cool test but different results may occur with different irons, tools, woods, and users. I think I will just do what I want and resharpen as necessary. Thanks for doing it, I like that you have data to at least debunk the myth in your experiment.
Consider that lifting up and moving back might increase risk of putting the plane back on the surface and accidentally damaging the surface. Dragging back mostly eliminates that possibility.
What about different woods? I assume that this test is done on a pine. But for example oak has silica in it. How would the silica effect the testing?! Would love to get some statistics about.
This was red oak.
Fabulous counting to 20👏👏👏
How many hours of it do you have?
You did it! Yay!
It would seem to me that the way back dragging occurs in normal use is One Forward / One Back. A test comparing One Forward/Lift/Return with One Forward/One Back would give better results. Just my opinion.
Thanks for doing the hard yards so that we don’t have to…it must have been a real drag doing it (I’ll get me coat)☺️
It would be interesting to see these as line plots
Love the data
thanks
I don't remember seeing the stuffed animal below the saw till in the old shop. Even if it was there, is there a story behind it?
That is the bench dog.
yeah science!
i really don't even understand why people think it would be a problem.
In my experience back dragging doesn't dull my blades but instead "grinds" a micro bevel parallel to the sole. I was dumbfounded as a beginner, as my blades were sharp, but weren't engaging the wood. The plane would even teeter on the blade, still refusing to cut. After a good sharpening it was back to normal.
This effect was most noticeable on dirty and rough lumber, and on those I never back drag now. On clean, smooth and soft woods however, I find the effect is less tangible.
For me, back dragging was never about dulling the blade; it's about precision. I have the sense (though not the proof) that back dragging results in sloppier work. There's something about taking the time to lift the plane and carry it back that causes me to take more care about positioning the plane for the next stroke. In some cases, like using a scrub plane to transition from a hewn surface to a more refined surface, I do back drag, though I know it is morally wrong. However, this sin is expunged when I switch to a smoothing plane and finish the surface ethically.
Would bevel up vs bevel down make a difference? Higher angle vs low?
I think James has a test somewhere covering all variants that you could assume the same result,little to no harm /negative impact by back dragging
I so not see how there could be a difference. at the tip it is the same.
With all of your collecting and spreadsheets you may be somewhere on the functional spectrum 😂
James clearly these people have been planing concrete….
Fireball tools did a similar video/test with dragging files.
On wood or metal?
@@thomasarussellsr metal, but the same theory exist on back dragging and blunting edges. th-cam.com/video/xbykic--SKA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=7q6xPafgAOip3xed
Where was the staging lights😉? Drag races always have the staging lights 🤔 😁😁
For the algorithm!
You mentioned that you intentionally pressed down on the plane as you dragged it back. Did you continue this on the 400 only back drag only test? If yes, then the amount of dulling may actually be less under normal use conditions. I do not see a way to extrapolate the numbers, but I also think it’s pointless to rerun the test.
I believe too many people have become legalistic with hand tools. Too many you should never, or it’s wrong, or whatever absolute “truths” they’re selling. For me? I just enjoy designing and making my furniture, or whatever project I fancy. If my plane bevel is between 25-35 degrees, and it’s taking shavings, I’m stoked. If I only sharpen to 1200 “grit”, who cares as long as I’m getting a clean surface.
The wood working community needs to get back to making for the enjoyment of the craft, not applying precision engineering standards to hand work.
But what if you back drag the plane and then set it on it's side. I've heard that will sharpen the blade all by itself - some guy on the 'net probably.
Only if you set it inside a copper wire pyramid😉
The proof is in the pudding (or spreadsheet) and mine is apple crumble! LOL.
And after 20 forward and 400 backwards on a handsharpened iron, it was still sharper than the starting value of the machine sharpened. Guess it comes down to your wrist.
It's always down to the wrist.....😂
Not knowing anything I would say it may dull the iron a bit sooner. Other than that no biggie.
I think it's good practice to not back drag purely because if you have the wood clamped sure it's not going anywhere, but if you're planing against a stop or a dog, back dragging may move your piece around more than necessary, rather than saving time on sharpening it's saving time on repositioning.
Your piece shouldn’t move if it’s secured!
i dont drag back cause sometimes a shaving goes up and blocks the blade. I am a newbie, any tips?
your mouth is set too close and blade isn’t parallel. adjust your frog, try to get blade set in more ‘square’.
I am not sure how pulling it back will get it stuck in the mouth. feel free to email or message me I would be glad to help.
@@youarenotme01im going to give that a go. thanks. also, I may have already fixed the problem, but just keep lifting it out of habit.
What a drag all this time I could of back drag and saved some 😓.
Forgive me because I have back dragged, I'm living in the thin 😔
Commenting down below.
Avradge?
yes indeed!
@@WoodByWrightHowTo feels like I'm on the outside of a very inside joke.
This channel is known for the misspellings. I do not correct them. And the regulars like to find how many are in each video.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I'll be on the lookout!
Comment down below.
Should have measured after the push forward and before the pull back.
You can't. You have to take it apart to measure it.
I'm not going to drag this out but you should just get back to the basics
Comment down below
imagine dragging back on sandpaper, is the iron going to get dull? No it will not, at least not in the sharpness test, but will the Iron still cut in the plane? Definitively not, because what you are doing essentially is sharpening at the exact bed angle, and we all know what happens when you sharpen at the angle of the bed or higher. So this may actually be worse than it seems.
The iron still cut just perfectly fine. On the first test I was still taking a pass on it every 20 strokes. And even looking at it under a microscope afterwards you didn't see any ware on the tip or a new bevel.
Avradge? Interesting spelling of average.
That is how we roll here. The regulars make a game of counting them in every video.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Hukt on foniks wurkt for me tu! 😆
Another myth busted.
First
woot woot. nice work!