This is super sweet. Just ran into a situation last week where a 70 was just barely too short and ended up doing a double rope rappel instead. Had way too much tail just to go that extra 10 feet. I'll definitely use this in the future if it seems like there's only a small gap to close up
Okay. If your chain/carabiner doesnt match, or something (for ex your anker would be around trees), all you have to do is put your longer end of the rope through the carabiner, and boom, you can do the same thing, even is there is no tight chain to catch your carabiner. You can thank me now :D
Rap routes for climbing are usually based on the assumption that you will use half of your rope. With a 60 meter rope you go 30 meters at a time. With a 70 meter rope you go 35 meters at a time. Maybe add 10% to both of those estimates since the rope is a little stretchy. If the route is designed for a 70 meter rope then you will need an approach like this to be able to make it down the full 35 meters, and get your rope back, and not fall.
I can't see the need for cross-loading the carabiner to block the rope/clove hitch from going through the anker. Why not have the retrieval-rope clove hitched at the narrow side of the carabiner and the carabiner clipped over the tension-rope with the wide side? This blocks the clove hitch from slipping through. Once you're down you still can pull the tension-rope up and through the setup (for as long as you don't have a stopper knot on it, which wouldn't go through the anker anyway) because the carabiner clipped into the tension-rope comes down nicely with the retrieval-rope. Any thoughts?
Hi @thomaswillmann296! Great question, and it relates closely to a question asked by @samsara592000 above. In regard to the carabiner being cross-loaded, generally cross-loading refers to a carabiner being loaded in two opposing directions, while the carabiner in this system is loaded very differently. For example, if a carabiner rotates in your belay loop while you belay then the spine of the carabiner and the gate can become loaded across from one-another (the belay loop pulling on one side and the belay device/rope on the other.) In this cross-loaded orientation most carabiners rated for climbing have a breaking strength of 7kN or more, or more than 1,573.6lbs/714.7kg of force. This much force on the human body can cause serious injury or death, so cross loading in recreational rock climbing systems, though not ideal, is generally only a significant concern at points in the system where forces can be multiplied (such as in fall protection). Other carabiner orientations are significantly weaker (such as a nose hook or pinch-lever). In the system in this video the carabiner is not cross-loaded, but is rather loaded along the spine only where it is being pulled into the chains with the force of one or two human bodies. To the best of my knowledge manufacturers do not test carabiners for this type of loading, but if you talk to an engineer you will find that the carabiner's breaking strength is much greater than 22kN in this application. This is because the bar stock used for making the carabiner would need to break with almost no leverage being applied. In other-words, it would need to fracture exactly at the gap in the chain link the carabiner is being pulled into, with force being applied less than a cm from this fracture (where the carabiner bar stock is in contact with the metal of the chain). In terms of breaking strength with this type of application the orientation of the carabiner doesn't matter, as long as you aren't pulling on the gate. The strength will be the same on the basket (wide part) of the carabiner, along the spine, or at the narrow end. I prefer to use the spine because it provides a large contact surface for the clove hitch to cinch onto, and because it is obviously large enough to block rings and chain links we commonly use in the United States for rappelling. For the second part of your question, here was my reply above: Yeah, the use of a bite knot (such as a butterfly, overhand, figure-8, etc) with a carabiner clipped through the bite-knot and around the weight-bearing rope is called a reepschnur. This technique also works well, and I used it for many years. One issue I ran into with the reepschnur is that the bite-knot and carabiner are a bit bulky and more likely to get stuck than the carabiner block system (though it is possible for the carabiner in the block to be stuck in this system as well). Twists are also sometimes a problem with the reepschnur system (where one rope twists around the other, making it more difficult to pull your ropes- especially if there is a featured slab you are pulling the ropes over). The system outlined in this video is a bit more visually clear for some people, which also reduces the likelihood of making a rigging error such as that outlined in this accident report: publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201102300/Rappel-Rigging-Error-Fall-on-Rock-Distraction-California-Yosemite-Valley-Serenity-Crack
@@skillsforclimbing Hi there, thanks for your reply. Of course, the carabiner is not cross-loaded as such, you are perfectly right (sorry, didn't think it through) and the rest of your reply also makes perfect sense.
That's a great question @GeorgyGobozov. This technique works well with any webbing anchor that uses a quick link or rappel ring as the rappel point. I would be warry of using this technique on an anchor that has a carabiner as the rappel point, because the carabiner block could pass through. I usually carry a spare quick link or two on me in case I need to build rappel stations to bail, but they come in handy if I want to replace a carabiner rappel point with a quick ling rappel point as well.
@@martintomasek740Hi Martin.. I used a 600mm x 11mm sling.. A length of 9mm cord.. I dismantled a Bungee cord and made a thick short loop, wrapped some protection around that rubber.. Took out a short section of core to make the threaded section.. copied the pictures online of the Beal and sowed it up by hand.. damn it the amount of time it takes you would be better to buy one, but I was on a really tight budget and wanted it 'now' ! it works great though..
@@sergeantcrow @Sergeant Crow Thanks for your exhaustive answer! I will probably buy one, but I was just curious, how did you achieved the same function and if you didnt think out any better solution, but it probably doesnt exist, otherwise it would be sold yet. Have a nice day
@@martintomasek740 You are welcome Martin.. I was instantly hooked when I saw it on TH-cam and thought it will be great if ever we have to just get out.. Wishing you all the best going forward..
I have trouble trusting a clove hitch carabineer block. I see it's a standard practice in canyoneering and also you show it used here. Under what circumstances is a clove hitch likely to slip or when should I not trust this method? It feels sketchy but it's pretty bomber huh?
You can use a double figure 8 Knott block on a bite with a carabiner going through the bottom two loops of the figure 8. Another very common bomber knot block used in canyoning.
Just use an overhand on a bight and clip it to the load strand if that makes you feel more comfortable. The clove is trustworthy and less likely to get stuck in a crack though.
I always use a butterfly and clip the biner to both the loop and the rap line. Usually I use a tag line but I realize the purpose of the video is to show how to cope.
Yeah, the use of a bite knot (such as a butterfly, overhand, figure-8, etc) with a carabiner clipped through the bite-knot and around the weight-bearing rope is called a reepschnur. This technique also works well, and I used it for many years. One issue I ran into with the reepschnur is that the bite-knot and carabiner are a bit bulky and more likely to get stuck than the carabiner block system (though it is possible for the carabiner in the block to be stuck in this system as well). The system outlined in this video is a bit more visually clear for some people, which also reduces the likelihood of making a rigging error such as that outlined in this accident report: publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201102300/Rappel-Rigging-Error-Fall-on-Rock-Distraction-California-Yosemite-Valley-Serenity-Crack
Um mmm sorry but you can't repel 70m with a 60m rope🤣. Not in one shot any way.. even if you were using a beal escaper the Max you could do is 59m. Using traditional method of repelling you can only repel a little less than half the distance of your rope length. 60m rope = 29m repel. Using your method and a 60m rope you could do a 35m repel! If you connected 11m worth of shit to the short end! That's it... Your numbers are way off... Get a beal escaper way safer and you can repel 59m on a 60m rope.... I left and extra meter in all my #s so you don't have to repel right to the very end which usually is not a good idea
Dont write bullshit dude, the title is completely incorrect, you theoretically rappeled 40m with a 60m rope, never 70, which is impossible with this setup.
Thanks for the tip ! Anyway, I guess the method doesn't work if your rappel is made of 2 tied ropes (e.g. in alpinism, if you need to rappel 55 m with two tied rope of 50 m. each) since the knot will necessarily locate on the opposite side of the carabiner block (knot on the "long rope" - carabiner block on the "short one". As a result, the rope will be blocked by the knot when trying to get it back...
With respect.. it seems to be a “bad habit” of explaining the right things to do, while sacrificing some safety to be filmed. Why not have your filmed on the quad as well? Or have them clean the quad since you are now leaving the master point anyhow. I see a lot of these videos being filmed showing off great rescue skills but lacking the full picture of what it means to be safe and anchored. Now, with saying this I’m not doubting you checked your bolts and have a bomber one. But it’s still not really redundant when there’s definitely redundant opportunities. As a guide myself I love seeing these videos, just... don’t forget who’s watching with some constructive criticism! Climb on!
I was looking at that as well when he cleaned the anchor. Mr cameraman probably had a little pucker factor if he was watching. I think he and the bolt would have just fallen down onto the other guys belay device though, so it’s not a a major safety hazard until he has gone some distance downwards. They certainly could have addressed it off camera before it was a major safety issue.
@@skillsforclimbing still doesnt sound physically reasonable to carry 80m of cordalette/cordage with you, assuming you'd want a long enough pull strand (70m) and an extra 10m to tie on the end of your rappel strand. This also assumes we know how to pass a knot. Also, in the vid it's stated that you're rappelling with a 60m rope what you'd be rapelling with a 70m rope. That's 35m, not 70m as stated in the title. Sound (ish) advice but not in the right context -- you wouldnt want to find yourself in this scenario to begin with. Advising prevention is safer than a fix like this, esp when it's done in such a clickbaity manner. p.s. Down by Andy Kirkpatrick has a great tip on carrying fishing line as a pull-cord in order to do full rope-length raps. You could use what you've suggested here w that in order to actually rappel 70m with a 60m rope.
Well you need 10 meters of something. It doesn’t have to be very load bearing. I can reach over 2 meters up so we are down to 8 meters needed. I can tie my shirt in so that’s down to 7 meters needed. I usually have two 120cm slings and 5 60cm slings on my harness so now we are down to 1.5 meters more needed. I could do that last bit with cam slings or chalk bag belts or shoe laces or cam slings or any spare stuff I have around. The bit about the shirt is mostly a joke. My quad can unravel to over 5 meters and my chalk bag lives on a double loop of cord for a belt.
Great advice. Unfortunate that people prefer to focus on a typo/brain fart than the content of the video. Thank you!
Thanks so much for your support @Milsh84!
This is super sweet. Just ran into a situation last week where a 70 was just barely too short and ended up doing a double rope rappel instead. Had way too much tail just to go that extra 10 feet. I'll definitely use this in the future if it seems like there's only a small gap to close up
Okay. If your chain/carabiner doesnt match, or something (for ex your anker would be around trees), all you have to do is put your longer end of the rope through the carabiner, and boom, you can do the same thing, even is there is no tight chain to catch your carabiner.
You can thank me now :D
Still waiting to see how to rapell 70m on 60m of rope looks like he just did 40 on a 60
Rap routes for climbing are usually based on the assumption that you will use half of your rope.
With a 60 meter rope you go 30 meters at a time.
With a 70 meter rope you go 35 meters at a time.
Maybe add 10% to both of those estimates since the rope is a little stretchy.
If the route is designed for a 70 meter rope then you will need an approach like this to be able to make it down the full 35 meters, and get your rope back, and not fall.
This is where it is nice to have a Beal Escaper.
Thank you! Very useful advice
You're very welcome!
Excellent.. Good job..
Cool, thanks
I can't see the need for cross-loading the carabiner to block the rope/clove hitch from going through the anker. Why not have the retrieval-rope clove hitched at the narrow side of the carabiner and the carabiner clipped over the tension-rope with the wide side? This blocks the clove hitch from slipping through. Once you're down you still can pull the tension-rope up and through the setup (for as long as you don't have a stopper knot on it, which wouldn't go through the anker anyway) because the carabiner clipped into the tension-rope comes down nicely with the retrieval-rope. Any thoughts?
Hi @thomaswillmann296! Great question, and it relates closely to a question asked by @samsara592000 above. In regard to the carabiner being cross-loaded, generally cross-loading refers to a carabiner being loaded in two opposing directions, while the carabiner in this system is loaded very differently. For example, if a carabiner rotates in your belay loop while you belay then the spine of the carabiner and the gate can become loaded across from one-another (the belay loop pulling on one side and the belay device/rope on the other.) In this cross-loaded orientation most carabiners rated for climbing have a breaking strength of 7kN or more, or more than 1,573.6lbs/714.7kg of force. This much force on the human body can cause serious injury or death, so cross loading in recreational rock climbing systems, though not ideal, is generally only a significant concern at points in the system where forces can be multiplied (such as in fall protection). Other carabiner orientations are significantly weaker (such as a nose hook or pinch-lever). In the system in this video the carabiner is not cross-loaded, but is rather loaded along the spine only where it is being pulled into the chains with the force of one or two human bodies. To the best of my knowledge manufacturers do not test carabiners for this type of loading, but if you talk to an engineer you will find that the carabiner's breaking strength is much greater than 22kN in this application. This is because the bar stock used for making the carabiner would need to break with almost no leverage being applied. In other-words, it would need to fracture exactly at the gap in the chain link the carabiner is being pulled into, with force being applied less than a cm from this fracture (where the carabiner bar stock is in contact with the metal of the chain). In terms of breaking strength with this type of application the orientation of the carabiner doesn't matter, as long as you aren't pulling on the gate. The strength will be the same on the basket (wide part) of the carabiner, along the spine, or at the narrow end. I prefer to use the spine because it provides a large contact surface for the clove hitch to cinch onto, and because it is obviously large enough to block rings and chain links we commonly use in the United States for rappelling.
For the second part of your question, here was my reply above: Yeah, the use of a bite knot (such as a butterfly, overhand, figure-8, etc) with a carabiner clipped through the bite-knot and around the weight-bearing rope is called a reepschnur. This technique also works well, and I used it for many years. One issue I ran into with the reepschnur is that the bite-knot and carabiner are a bit bulky and more likely to get stuck than the carabiner block system (though it is possible for the carabiner in the block to be stuck in this system as well). Twists are also sometimes a problem with the reepschnur system (where one rope twists around the other, making it more difficult to pull your ropes- especially if there is a featured slab you are pulling the ropes over). The system outlined in this video is a bit more visually clear for some people, which also reduces the likelihood of making a rigging error such as that outlined in this accident report:
publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201102300/Rappel-Rigging-Error-Fall-on-Rock-Distraction-California-Yosemite-Valley-Serenity-Crack
@@skillsforclimbing Hi there, thanks for your reply. Of course, the carabiner is not cross-loaded as such, you are perfectly right (sorry, didn't think it through) and the rest of your reply also makes perfect sense.
This is gold
Thanks for your support @tonygreenway3010!
Wonder how this will work with rap rings and webbing anchor. I believe technically it should work... but are there any caveats?
That's a great question @GeorgyGobozov. This technique works well with any webbing anchor that uses a quick link or rappel ring as the rappel point. I would be warry of using this technique on an anchor that has a carabiner as the rappel point, because the carabiner block could pass through. I usually carry a spare quick link or two on me in case I need to build rappel stations to bail, but they come in handy if I want to replace a carabiner rappel point with a quick ling rappel point as well.
@@skillsforclimbing thank you!
Clever.
Very cool! Great idea!
I made my own 'Beal Escaper' to help me.. It works great..
how did you do that?
@@martintomasek740Hi Martin.. I used a 600mm x 11mm sling.. A length of 9mm cord.. I dismantled a Bungee cord and made a thick short loop, wrapped some protection around that rubber.. Took out a short section of core to make the threaded section.. copied the pictures online of the Beal and sowed it up by hand.. damn it the amount of time it takes you would be better to buy one, but I was on a really tight budget and wanted it 'now' ! it works great though..
@@sergeantcrow @Sergeant Crow Thanks for your exhaustive answer! I will probably buy one, but I was just curious, how did you achieved the same function and if you didnt think out any better solution, but it probably doesnt exist, otherwise it would be sold yet. Have a nice day
@@martintomasek740 You are welcome Martin.. I was instantly hooked when I saw it on TH-cam and thought it will be great if ever we have to just get out.. Wishing you all the best going forward..
simpler version is to take the rope your rappelled down and take the end and tie the shorter end tot he longer end then pull it down?
No that wouldn’t help much if I am understanding you correctly
I have trouble trusting a clove hitch carabineer block. I see it's a standard practice in canyoneering and also you show it used here. Under what circumstances is a clove hitch likely to slip or when should I not trust this method? It feels sketchy but it's pretty bomber huh?
You can use a double figure 8 Knott block on a bite with a carabiner going through the bottom two loops of the figure 8. Another very common bomber knot block used in canyoning.
Just use an overhand on a bight and clip it to the load strand if that makes you feel more comfortable.
The clove is trustworthy and less likely to get stuck in a crack though.
How to descend a 35 meter climb on a 60 meter rope doesn't quite have the same ring to it eh?
Thanks for the video I just ran into a situation where I used this to get an extra 25ft out of a rappel
Atreu
Okay w
I always use a butterfly and clip the biner to both the loop and the rap line. Usually I use a tag line but I realize the purpose of the video is to show how to cope.
Yeah, the use of a bite knot (such as a butterfly, overhand, figure-8, etc) with a carabiner clipped through the bite-knot and around the weight-bearing rope is called a reepschnur. This technique also works well, and I used it for many years. One issue I ran into with the reepschnur is that the bite-knot and carabiner are a bit bulky and more likely to get stuck than the carabiner block system (though it is possible for the carabiner in the block to be stuck in this system as well). The system outlined in this video is a bit more visually clear for some people, which also reduces the likelihood of making a rigging error such as that outlined in this accident report:
publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201102300/Rappel-Rigging-Error-Fall-on-Rock-Distraction-California-Yosemite-Valley-Serenity-Crack
Title is not "misleading". It is 100% false.
Why do you say that? This is totally valid.
@@Mtndoc75 Watched this and commented a long time ago. Rewatched it and it does make sense. Thanks for pointing out my error.
You mean with a 120m rope
Um mmm sorry but you can't repel 70m with a 60m rope🤣. Not in one shot any way.. even if you were using a beal escaper the Max you could do is 59m. Using traditional method of repelling you can only repel a little less than half the distance of your rope length. 60m rope = 29m repel. Using your method and a 60m rope you could do a 35m repel! If you connected 11m worth of shit to the short end! That's it... Your numbers are way off... Get a beal escaper way safer and you can repel 59m on a 60m rope.... I left and extra meter in all my #s so you don't have to repel right to the very end which usually is not a good idea
Why can't you rappel 60 m with 60 m rope => Escaper included? Because of the safety meter at the end? Every climbing rope stretches...
Dont write bullshit dude, the title is completely incorrect, you theoretically rappeled 40m with a 60m rope, never 70, which is impossible with this setup.
Thanks for the tip !
Anyway, I guess the method doesn't work if your rappel is made of 2 tied ropes (e.g. in alpinism, if you need to rappel 55 m with two tied rope of 50 m. each) since the knot will necessarily locate on the opposite side of the carabiner block (knot on the "long rope" - carabiner block on the "short one". As a result, the rope will be blocked by the knot when trying to get it back...
With respect.. it seems to be a “bad habit” of explaining the right things to do, while sacrificing some safety to be filmed. Why not have your filmed on the quad as well? Or have them clean the quad since you are now leaving the master point anyhow.
I see a lot of these videos being filmed showing off great rescue skills but lacking the full picture of what it means to be safe and anchored. Now, with saying this I’m not doubting you checked your bolts and have a bomber one. But it’s still not really redundant when there’s definitely redundant opportunities.
As a guide myself I love seeing these videos, just... don’t forget who’s watching with some constructive criticism!
Climb on!
I was looking at that as well when he cleaned the anchor.
Mr cameraman probably had a little pucker factor if he was watching.
I think he and the bolt would have just fallen down onto the other guys belay device though, so it’s not a a major safety hazard until he has gone some distance downwards.
They certainly could have addressed it off camera before it was a major safety issue.
the carabiner gonna be smashed on the rock... I guess it s a tek to use only in a especific situation
No, it won’t. The carabiner block is pretty much going to be in your hands on the ground by the time the rope ends
goes through the anchor above you.
ok but where's the extra 10m coming from??😐
@@skillsforclimbing still doesnt sound physically reasonable to carry 80m of cordalette/cordage with you, assuming you'd want a long enough pull strand (70m) and an extra 10m to tie on the end of your rappel strand. This also assumes we know how to pass a knot.
Also, in the vid it's stated that you're rappelling with a 60m rope what you'd be rapelling with a 70m rope. That's 35m, not 70m as stated in the title.
Sound (ish) advice but not in the right context -- you wouldnt want to find yourself in this scenario to begin with. Advising prevention is safer than a fix like this, esp when it's done in such a clickbaity manner.
p.s. Down by Andy Kirkpatrick has a great tip on carrying fishing line as a pull-cord in order to do full rope-length raps. You could use what you've suggested here w that in order to actually rappel 70m with a 60m rope.
You don't need 80m just attach a short length to the rope as shown at end of video.
@@skillsforclimbing Nah the vid's just got a blatantly clickbaity title
Summary of the video:
To do a 35m rappel with 60m rope, you need 10m extra cord/rope. Maths can't be tricked.👏
Well you need 10 meters of something. It doesn’t have to be very load bearing.
I can reach over 2 meters up so we are down to 8 meters needed. I can tie my shirt in so that’s down to 7 meters needed. I usually have two 120cm slings and 5 60cm slings on my harness so now we are down to 1.5 meters more needed. I could do that last bit with cam slings or chalk bag belts or shoe laces or cam slings or any spare stuff I have around.
The bit about the shirt is mostly a joke. My quad can unravel to over 5 meters and my chalk bag lives on a double loop of cord for a belt.