Just came here to type this, but you beat me to it. I wonder if the appropriate way to Bat'leth is to ram into, and throw yourself onto your opponent, and finish with a dagger? I believe most Klingons also had a side blade.
@@SolemnlySquid a three pointed dagger called the Dk'Tagh is pretty standard, it had a button activator to flare out smaller blades from the guard. but Klingons weren't opposed to different knife varieties and carried smaller less robust blades regularly.
A fan theory (Supported by an episode of Voyager) I saw on the internet was the Bat'leth was actually reinvented for defensiveness, so honor duels would last longer and test a warrior's resolve and reflexes further. That way warriors going 1 on 1 for prestige wouldn't slaughter each other immediately and thin the top ranks. Klingons do have traditional swords in their culture, the Bat'leth is considered a specialized honor weapon. But it's iconic and the props departments has a ton, so they're overrepresented on the shows.
Not exactly. Deathly duels also serve to eliminate the weak. And apparently there is no shortage of Klingons. This is almost how and why they move ranks.
I've long held the idea that they were designed to be difficult to use. Why? Because that would greater demonstrate the skill and prowess of anyone who mastered their use. Also, until the TNG-era, the idea that anyone would take one into actual battle was seen as ridiculous, as it's not a battlefield weapon. It is meant for dueling against someone else using one. But, some Klingons started using them in actual battles because of the honor associated with using them and the trend rapidly spread throughout the Empire.
In the books it is revealed that the bat'leth was redesigned specifically to fight the hur'q - an alien race that conquered them hundreds of year ago. Modern klingons keep the same design to honor those warriors who drove the hur'q from Kronos and saved the empire.
It's unfortunate that HEMA practitioners are so rigid and unable to think outside what they know. Almost as disappointing as the people who believe everything they say as gospel.
I'd be interested in seeing a longsword vs bat'leth fight within the confines of a navy ship interior. As "realistically" that would be the kind of setting in which a bat'leth would see most of its actual combat use. Boarding another ship. Most HEMA events that i've seen took place in the open air. No real danger of hitting the ceiling, never mind a wall mounted console made of the finest explodium that the federation has to offer.
@@fermitupoupon1754 Or maybe a one handed sword or other shorter weapon? Would be interesting to see how it fares against other weapons also built for the environment it's used in. Could still be a useful tool to be honest, cause while shorter weapons exchange reach for control, the bat'leth can at will swap the two, gaining reach and losing control, and easily swap back. Not that it's the only weapon that can do so, a dane axe for example (maybe a tad shorter) but idk it seems like it has the possibility to excel.
in the end it seems the main issue of the design is that the shape makes it very prone to twisting on impact (especially when defended) in a way that screws up the edge alignment.
If I remember the lore correctly, the Bat'leth dates back to a time where shooting any projectile weapons inside a sealed hull spacecraft was HEAVILY frowned upon. Which makes armoured boarding parties with what are essentially space cutlasses a very VERY good idea.
@@toomanyaccounts To Add to that: Specifically Armoured fighting in corridors I think is where it is optimised, unarmoured a rapier-type would probably be better.
@@Scuzzlebutt142 the klingons tend to have leather armor or heavy cloth and a rapier is a tad light when fighting Klingons whose superior strength and robust bodies would likely break the rapier.
@@toomanyaccounts Don't underestimate the rapier. The Rapier is still a sword and breaking it would not only require a lot of strength but also a good bind so you can apply that strenght to break the rapier. That's very unlikely. Unless you were talking about simply bending the rapier by attacking it with such force that parrying the Bat'leth would result in deforming the rapier. But my guess is that the hand of the one holding the rapier would break before the blade bends in any significant way. Of course there is also the possibility that people don't talk about a rapier but an epee, which is made for thrusting only and therefore has a very thin "blade" without an actual blade. That thing is quite thin, but I think it's not a real weapon of war and more of a sports or duel thing.
Seems like a weapon that's made for curbstomping a novice opponent. Very intimidating, several points to keep track of, excels at blocking unga bunga chops, slips guard easily, and you can almost use it as shield just to get in close and grapple.
In Skalls first video on the Bat'leth years back, he talked about the Lore, and that was Basically the purpose of the Bat'leth. A weapon that would Take attention away from Klingons' Natural Strength, and force them to work on Technique.
Which makes a lot of sense given Most enemies of the Klingon empire are not CQC trained. Starfleet officers make use of some defensive martial arts & Vulcans are pacifists who rarely carry martial weapons. Most CQC oriented aliens in the Alpha quadrant often rely on brute strength like the Nausicaans. So the Klingons rarely engage well trained martial combatants.
I'm not sure about piercing skulls, the design looks a lot like a weapon of attrition in many ways where you could get a quick kill, but a lot of fights are more of bleeding each other out with cuts and gouges...which makes sense considering the redundancies and other things that klingons have that make them hard to take down.
I will say this. The batleth exists in in a sci-fi setting where almost everyone probably prefers ranged weapons. In the rare instance of a melee, having troops capable of highly lethal CQC is a boon. Combat knives still exist for a reason.
@@sirdeakia since they see EVERYTHING as a weapon, it would probably score a little higher in usefulness than a corkscrew, but only if that corkscrew isn't part of a swiss army knife 😎
One of the reasons that you're my favorite content creator in this niche is that you actually take these ideas from the philosophical to the hypothetical to the practical. I appreciate your scientific approach and when you share your findings with us. In addition to the sword, please also test it against axe and spear (and cat o nine tails)
Practically, I assume the Baleth was good for the TV show because it supported close in drawn out fights, requiring less stage space and asking it easier to keep both in frame.
@@Crazael Choreography can make anyone fake being good at anything, as long as it is that one set of movements in that circumstance which is being done. A good actor would be better at learning a given set of movements and adapting to changes faster, but even then it is the skill of the choreographer which is more important.
"Nothing is more honorable than victory" for a Klingon, they have a different notion of "honor", so I definitively see them targeting hands if it brings victory. Also the Klingon relation to Bat'leth is like sword for HEMA. A gun is more effective, but the traditional weapon of legends is way closer to the heart ^^
it reallt depends on the context. in a battle? sure, theyll go for hands, feet, even the crotch, but in a duel i dont think they would, since the point of a duel is to prove strength and prowess, not who can score the first cheap shot.
@@viysnjor4811 Traditional non-lethal rules for Klingon duels are for three knockdowns. A distracting injury like a hand wound would be a reasonable thing to inflict first round. If you got it in your skilled, if you take it and win your tough.
Now imagine the only practical setting for deploying this weapon is in the narrow confined halls of a spaceship where there are lots of points for ambush. There's basically no room for maneuver. That practical limitation paired with hundreds or thousands of years of use as a weapon of ritual combat would make sense for how it's used
I could certainly see Klingon ships having more cornered hallways, to take away the advantage from ranged weapons in favor of CQC, like the trenches in both world wars.
It's lore that early spacefaring Klingon frowned on the use of ranged weapons aboard ships due to the risk of a stray shot causing explosive decompression, so they used melee weapons. I almost imagine the original version of it was longer, probably straighter, much like Skal's redesign but maybe even longer. But when they moved to ships, they got shorter and more suited to close-quarters brawls, and eventually became monolithic in construction. Forward-curving spikes formed to suit puncturing armor in near-grapples, and once ranges weapons came back into favor the design became a matter of tradition: you didn't _need_ to use one anymore so the design stopped evolving, but if you _did_ use grandpa's old weapon to take down a room full of guys with disruptors _oh boy_ did you get bragging rights. Very similar to the change from sabers to cutlass by real-world navies, and some of our own legends. Kind of like the stories of Lieutenant Colonel Jack Churchill taking a bloody greatsword into WWII, we _remember_ that kinda stuff.
I've always wanted a scene in Trek were a Klingon faces a properly trained human armed with a sword. Even if it was on the Holodeck I think it would be fascinating to see how the series Warriors react to the styles and tools of humanities own warrior past.
They'd look at some of our weapons and love alot of our bigger nastier weapons like Naginatas or Halberds. An they'd love anything using strength an aggression like axes. They'd underestimate maybe our weirder weapons like scythes spears an most swords or be VERY suspicious of them until they find out just HOW deadly an skilled these are in the hands of properly trained an experienced masters and they'd be surprised what some our Grandmasters can do with some of these
@@momokochama1844 But with what's essentially an arming sword - a useful sidearm, but not a main weapon unless you also have a shield. I think people were talking about longswords and greatswords or duelling weapons such as the shortsword or rapier.
@Darth Revan are you sure? I admit, I'm no expert with blade weapons, but Duras's sword looks more like some saber or Messer (a short one 😄). It looks a bit too short and too curved for a katana.
It seems perfect for closing gap in the bind. Go for a high, downward strike - let it be blocked in high bind Use the bind to redirect the lower half of the weapons downward momentum into a forward thrust at chest level under their engaged bind defence.
The binds look really complex in a very fun way. Between that and the ability of the extra prongs and double-ended nature to sneak in little pokes and cuts past an imperfect guard, these seem like they make for really intriguing sparring.
Thank you SO much for actually testing this! Most YT people just glance at the bat'leth and dismiss it. I remember being very intrigued by one singular comment on some video claiming to be a HEMA-ish guy that routinely destroyed swords with a bat'leth, but, anyone can type that...
I’ve heard similar stories about this happening with other unorthodox weapons, and I wonder how much of it is just catching your opponent completely off guard with something they have no experience countering against.
The bat'leth seems like the most practical version of the fantasy/sci-fi "double sword" concept, by having both blade be curved and blunt on the back end to protect from the usual problem of cutting oneself. That and it's relatively short. Great video!
YEEEES! This is just awesome. Thanks for giving it a go for real. It's great to see people taking this weapon more seriously and really digging in. Qapla', Skall!
Blood singing through their veins, they clashed in an onslaught of hatred and fury. Thundering echoes erupted as steel bit steel, every blow, pregnant with the promise of blood. Through gritted teeth and iron focus, both warriors knew his fate rest upon a killing edge... Glorious was that sound...! GLORIOUS WAS THE SOUND OF THUNDER!!!
I think in cramped hallways or passageways aboard a vessel, the batleth would work quite well. You want to get into their space as quickly as possible, and have limited room to do so, anyway.
Looking forward to the longsword vs bat'leth! I was surprised that it ended up being as effective as it was, taught me a lesson here not to just dismiss some things out of hand
The most interesting part of Bat'Leth fighting is that they had no dedicated staff for the choreography so it was a fighting style consisting of "whatever" with the only real consistency being spinning. On the design though I think the staggered handles are for two purposes, it lets you reinforce that blade so it doesn't bend or break as easily in a fight between opponents with superhuman strength. It's also most likely helps with weight distribution, if you had a single hole you would have a harder time actually physically making the weapon and keeping it balanced, which as you can tell, is key to using it properly. It has to be thick heavy and solid to kill a Klingon and it has to be practical enough to justify it's continued use in honor duels as knives and a curved katana style blade were also used in Klingon duels during TNG, interestingly the "Klingon katana" was used against a Bat'Leth.
+3:29 I can see dipping low and following with an upward rising strike with the lower blade being what one would find more effective here they just block high - you have them close and pretty much bound them with the forks and can - well "gut them" literally. and that is a simpler movement than what is shown here too.
On the point of using blades instead of guns, it is pretty clearly established that while the Klingons do prefer melee, they're not stupid. They know that any sort of ranged weapon is better in most circumstances, and that's precisely why they like to use blades when possible, because of the challenge. Still, as Worf said once, in war, nothing is more honorable than victory
if it grants victory, they'll gladly shoot first, but they often switched to melee if the opponent was within 20 feet, because much shorter than that and ranged weapons become less effective, especially with the severe lack of anything approximating a shotgun in star trek
@@realmofrandom3696 Yeah, particularly in the tight confines of a starship or space station, it's very easy to close that gap before an enemy can bring a gun to bear. As for there not being any shotgun like weapons, it would be rather difficult to design something like that using a phaser or disruptor, judging by how they seem to operate, and gas operated weapons like what we would think of as a gun have a laundry list of problems when operated in anything outside of a planet's atmosphere. That's why even military space installations don't bother to give the crew or the station guns, because combustion is a bit weird without oxygen, if not completely impossible
@@filmandfirearms I do vaguely recall an episode of the original series where a phaser was used with a setting for a wide beam to clear an alley way, but I think that only happened once. On a separate note, firearms can operate in a vacuum to a certain degree because the propellant doesn't rely on oxygen outside of the casing to ignite, where things can get tricky is with self loading guns that are gas operated, something that doesn't rely on the excess gas to cycle the action would be better. But even then, why use a traditional gun when you can use a phaser that doesn't require bulky ammunition and is far more compact and versatile than any firearm?
@@realmofrandom3696 _"I do vaguely recall an episode of the original series where a phaser was used with a setting for a wide beam to clear an alley way, but I think that only happened once."_ More than once. Spock used it to clear a hall in _Whom Gods Destroy,_ and it was used in _Return of the Archons_ to clear the alley, and Sulu used it in _The Enemy Within_ to heat rocks. "Wide beam" phasers are used in other contexts, too, in every series. A quick google search reveals examples from Voyager and DS9.
@@filmandfirearms You clearly have no idea how gunpowder works. Guns work just fine with no ambient oxygen, the oxidiser is part of the powder. Guns work underwater, they would work just fine in space too. The lack of real guns is purely a stylistic choice, there is no logic behind it at all.
The sparring footage gives credence to the fan theory that the Bat'leth was mainly designed as a defensive weapon. It has such a large surface area to parry with, is shaped to catch the opponent's blade and control it, while keeping the hands largely protected, with the wide two-handed grip making it pretty maneuverable despite the weight. Defending with it seems much easier than attacking efficiently, a skill Klingons historically lacked due to their innate bloodlust. And it does so without the user resorting to such "cowardly" and "dishonorable" acts like "cowering" behind a shield. The typical Bat'leth user may just have outlived users of other weapon styles on average - making it easier for them to gain experience and become even better with their weapon. Reckless and aggressive actions are the hallmark of a Klingon warrior, especially young and inexperienced ones - so a weapon that gives your recruits an edge against similarly untrained opponents (while still satisfying the social norms so the enemy can't claim a cultural victory) is absolutely something you'd want to foster. In modern Klingon society it's more of a status symbol and traditional piece of equipment, like how IRL sabres still saw some use on the battlefield here or there well into the 19th century, despite almost half a millennium of firearm use.
At first they looked completely not used to the Bat'leth, then about 1 minute into sparing you guys got good, and accurately pro-traded how to use it. I would like to see you guys fight with the Mek'leth next.
Yeah, I really noticed that as well. As they learned, their fighting style changed a lot. I wonder what it would be like if there was such a thing as a Bat'leth system, backed by a history of use and training.
Kirk: come on Chang....put down the chicken shit disruptor....i know what you want....stick the knife in me and see what's going on in there when you twist it...... Chang: I'm not gonna shoot you between the eyes....i don't need no disruptor [tosses it aside and draws bat'leth]....I'm gonna kill you now!!!! [swings bat'leth wildly] Kirk: [a large metal pipe skewers Chang in the fight].....let off some steam Chang! Adm Kirby: did you leave any for us? Kirk: just bodies Adm Kirby: I'd like you to consider coming back.. Kirk: no chance [power station - we fight for love plays] yes I melded 2 things into one sue me....lol
Glorious! Finally we get some quality footage of people actually trying that Bat'leth instead of dismissing it out of hand. I very much am looking forwards to part 2. And thanks to Sindri for always being there to test out Skall's shenanigans.
The weapon is pretty versatile. Despite the awkward shape it does force both fighters to be continuously aware of multiple defense and offensive opportunities at the same time while practicing. Good practice weapon for building awareness.
Overall a really good video, though there is one correction I have to make. Klingon Honor isn't like the popular concept of Chilvary or the stereotype of the Samurai; it's a lot more pragmatic. Any thing that gets you victory in battle goes so long as you actually fight. Even sending assassins to kill your enemies is okay, as it's expected that a true warrior should be ready to fight at all times. Something dishonorable would be poisoning your enemy, being taken prisoner without a fight, or in one specific case using economic manipulation to try to destroy a rival house so you can absorb all their lands. Ambushes, artillery barrages, snipers, espionage, etc are all fair game. The average warrior will accept an invitation to duel, but generally is content just shooting you. Klingons have no issue using disruptors and do so regularly. We rarely see bat'leths in actual fights on screen outside of duels and the only real noncerimonial noncombat use we saw was during a boarding action with plenty of tight corridors and fighting getting into melee range. Klingons are _not_ Space Orcs, they are significantly more complicated than that.
Samurai used guns, and inoghts possibly too. Do you think they did not have all kind of dirty tricks, Chivalry is only against other nobles, and only really is there that if one noble might rebel, there is a code that does discentivise to join that. And that they fight each other without certain rules and maintain order, and "honor" is apealing to that really. Like knights and samurai really could do what else with common people. That homor is more a code that nobles check themselves, against nobles, like the king, and dont get stupid ideas like rebellions. So klingons are probably the perfect representation. Really honor of knights and samurai wasnt dissimilar, and very pragmatic, unless you go against nobles.
You’re an absolute mad lad for trying this with so much fidelity. If there was an “well that was unexpected,” button on TH-cam I’d hit it for this video.
Seems like it performs kind of like a sickle-axe hybrid. The curvature allows it to bypass blocks and it will be better than many weapons in grappling like a sickle, while the points focus the strikes in a small area for devastating damage like an axe. Looking forward to see Bat'leth vs Longsword (As well as any other types of historical weapons you guys might try it against such as arming sword, spear, dane axe etc)
This was way more enjoyable to watch than I expected. Really looking forward to Part II. And boy, it looks really stylish when you swing it around, and as you said, it's for a purpose and not showing off. As a fan it makes me happy to see it being more practical than expected. Event though a lot can be handwaved by it being a ritual/traditional weapon, much less handwaving than I expected is needed.
Another thing to remember Klingons are "between more than three times stronger but less then five times stronger then Humans". So that Batleth feels like a nimble little short sword to them and they can actually manipulate it 1 handed like it is 1/3rd of its weight compared to a human.
I see like the batketh like a katana, mostly fighting against the same kind of weapons. And in Star Trek they are fighting unarmored non melee weapon wielding opponents
Katanas were backup weapons like arming swords...used as a last resort if you can't use your other better weapons like a polearm, bow, musket, mace, axe, or longer swords (longer longswords/claymores/greatswords, nodachis, etc).
@@Intranetusa in war they were backups weapons, but in use katana were a duking weapon .Also they Japanese didn't use longer swords. The Odachi was rarely used and was a footman weapon not a samurai weapon
@@Intranetusa seems like what a batleth is. obviously your first weapon is likely still going to be a phaser. But we can also look at the difference between klingon and federation ships. Federation ships have wide hallways without much cover or sharp angles that allow for more comfortable transit and ranged combat. federation ships pretty much count on not being boarded and when boarded expect a gunfight. Klingon ships have relatively cramped corridors and very sharp angles as well as bulkheads for cover every now and then as well as exposed conduits. This makes it much harder to use phasers or guns since a stray shot can burst a plasma conduit effectively killing everyone (including your boarding party) in the room and the tight corridors mean that it's hard to bring multiple guns to bear. Because of this it's very easy to use melee weapons or CQC weapons like a sword or a dagger. My guess is that the Batleth is the evolved form of a halberd but suited to combat in the tight corridors of a spaceship in zero g. It's light enough to be used in one hand (by klingons), can hook onto various handholds, and allows you to control the opponent's weapon. You still need to be careful with the Batleth but it seems like the ways you can control a melee weapon with the Batleth would do it preferentially so that the weapon wouldn't go on to hit exposed subsystems or go at a 90 degree angle towards the hull. The Mekleth is similar in that it doesn't actually have any real thrusting power instead the point is barred by a flat, likely to prevent hull puncture. In other words it's very probable that the Batleth and Mekleth were in fact created when klingons first took to space and Kahless's story might actually begin around the same level of civilization depicted in The Expanse or Gundam. I can also imagine that technological development is quite slow in the Klingon Empire and details tend to get muddied after 1400 years.
@@anilin6353 In the very late era (eg. 1700s+) would katanas be duking weapons because longer swords were banned/no longer made and there weren't many battles anymore. During earlier eras of war, tachis were longer than most later katanas and are more practical than katanas too. Nodachis (and katanas) were used by both Samurai and non-Samurai. Many Japanese lords had their bodyguards equipped with nodachis as a display of strength.
I do not comment often, but being a long time watcher of you channel & a huge Star Trek fan, I most state that I approve of this content. Now, may you live long & prosper!
I am following you with differing accounts for a very long time and i like, how you keep beeing yourself, whilest upgrading the quality of your content constantly. Keep it up!
Great vid Skal, I always felt that it had a place n the confines of boarding actions for example and seeing your sparring really confirmed that for me.
That was interesting to see, but what I really hoped for was how well it works against something conventional, such as a straight blade, a shield, or a polearm. Also maybe consideration for weather it suits armored or unarmored fighting.
Comparable human fighting could easily best it if the Human knows what they're doing an up against reasonable. Our arsenal of Human choices is ridiculous compared to just about all the Trek races combined. An MOST other races that took an interest in Human Martial Arts I would imagine would be VERY impressed with just how long it can take a Human to go from day 1 novice to Grandmaster top tier Black Belt. An that there's often MULTIPLE levels of Master, Many different fighting Arts and styles of them, they ALL suit specific niches, an ALL even specialize in unique weapons while many oddly share alot of weapons too. Even a Vulcan might find it illogical that to a Trek alien its actually pretty simple to us Humans.
I read somewhere in Klingon lore that Kahless observed fighters attacking with reckless abandon as they hadn't tempered their instincts. He designed the bat'leth so that warriors would be forced to think defensively, but made it 'double ended' so they would not cower from battle either. If I ever get the time, that's the concept I'd like to explore. Thanks for pointing out purple heart, that's the best option I've found thus far. Thank you very much for sparring video. It was nice to see them in action.
As I watched all the reverse hits and wide flourishes it made me think of the culture and environment where these are used as well as their shape. I thought of tight corridors and a culture that glorified strength and charging weaker enemies in tight quarters to terrify and over power them. I thought of bulls charging through corridors and deer locking antlers and rhinoceros beetles trying to fling one another off branches. It makes me think a Klingon would want to use it like a bull dozer in a corridor to charge down the hall and gore everyone in front of him to cause enemies to flee and trample on another as they fail to shoot back. Minimal swings maximal pushing with slight back and forth motions would do the trick. Facing another Klingon would be them smashing into one another like fearless warriors and trying to push the other’s weapon out of the way through strength rather than swinging around it and keeping your distance like a coward…or someone with enough sense to not take a blade to a blaster fight.
Innovative material...!!! Those releases are quick and more effective then I realized.... Amazed how many times the second spike held up in attack and defense !!!
You know, I've been watching this channel for years. And this is probably my favorite thing I've seen on here. Because to be fair, although I do love Star Trek and the Klingons are my favorite race, I am not obsessed with the Bat'leth like some are. But the notion that you'd take this seriously and actually give this thing a true attempt, and it's ability to hold it's own is truly incredible to watch in a real fight. Good job, this was very well done.
I remember an episode of DS9 where Kor, an old Klingon from TOS, said the first Bat'leth was used to farm Kahless's father's fields. With this in mind, how do you think it stacks up against farming implements in a fight?
Kina like a big scythe. Which would be one of our closest equivalents. Which I bet some of our weapons of melee weapon some Klingons would find MOST interesting an surprising too. Like "I tested this Human weapon an looked into it's lore an I was honored to find this Axe MOST satisfying".. or "These Humans got the idea to put a knife on the end of a rope an swing it in circles really fast before throwing it at their enemies... You wouldn't think it'd be effective or that hard but it's really quite a challenge to work with an can be deadly effective" the Vulcan said... An Quark said: "yes, yes now is there still a market for these an how much are the rare ones worth???"
The line always struck me since the design itself seemed really well suited for harvesting wheat or sunflowers. The bat'leth would make a lot of sense if it was originally a farming tool that was used as an improvised weapon, especially given Kahless's humble origins.
It was an appropriate study. For yrs i contemplated batleth strategy, specifically as a rebellion against skallagrim. After a yr not watching skallagrim, i see hes decided to muss about with batleth. You go.
This was very interesting and bears some comparison with a few old TH-cam videos of people sparing with heavily padded versions by obvious non-HEMA types. Those tended to use them defensively and rarely one handed. Your video displays it's greater flexibility of attack and counter.
Something interesting to note is that, while I don't believe it's directly stated anywhere, the Bat'leth is treated by Star Trek as a largely ceremonial weapon. It's used most often in one-on-one duels with other Bat'leth users for ceremonial purposes and is a weapon with deep ties to their culture. It still works in the setting as an effective melee weapon because nobody else seems to have melee weapons of any kind. Like, not even a knife.
Well you know that the Vulkans got a ceremonial halberd like weapon for ritual combat that looks like a staff with one end being weighted and bulbus and the other possessing a fan shaped blade?
I don't know enough Star Trek lore to really confirm or deny this, but I always had similar assumptions. I've always seen it as a weapon that is optimized to have a high skill ceiling and interesting combat strategies more than for efficiency on a battlefield. Something intended pretty specifically for duels with matched weapons. I think it's very plausible as a weapon you'd challenge a neighboring warlord with, in a context where the army you send when he chickens out would still have spears or disruptors depending on the age.
I can imagine Irish stick fighting to be be semi effective utilizing this sort of weapon. It's got the same capabilities of switching off hands as certain techniques in Irish stick fighting, and that martial art employes boxing in addition to striking with the weapon, which seems like it would suit a klingon.
And here I built a bat'leth from 6061 aluminum for this very purpose, to approach the bat'leth with an unbiased and scholarly perspective and actually test the weapon in sparring. Only now I find that Purpleheart, God bless them, makes a practical trainer from nylon XD Great video, Skall! Looking forward to part 2.
My mom would have loved to see this...unlike me who liked Star Wars more, my mother was a fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek so she wold have been interested to see how this weapon would work for real vs the lore...might have even got me a trainer like this if I asked for one.
@@LaughingCrowcorp the fact that it's a duel proves my point, though. There's nothing about the shape that makes it more effective against spears than a sword, but it somehow stuck around in a time of lasers and guns. And even if you can argue that a batleth could win more duels than a sword, most militaries present and past don't actually care that much about having the best equipment. For example: many products targeted towards high end customers say they exceed mil spec, but you'll meet veterans who'll tell you mil spec simply means it's proven to be reliable enough without costing too much. The batleth fails at that
my headcanon is that the bat'leth is smertical because klingons are most if not all ambidextrious or learned ambidextrious so this design makes it easier to switch grips and also keeps your enemy on his toes ... also the original design of the Sword of Khales with one continuos grip does seem like a weapon with defence in mind as much as offence (which is a major thing for klingons since they don't sue shield)
If the weapon is symmetrical, then the attack could come from any direction. If it weren't, you would know which side was more dangerous and be able to predict better just by watching it.
The bat'leth is meant to be an aggressive weapon with defensive options. It's intended to bum-rush a target, maybe perform one deflection of their own weapon, and then quickly come around for the kill. Let's face it, if you're unarmored and you take a hit from one of those things, you're done. A sword will leave a gash, and probably put you down, but one of those bat'leth points will flat-out gut you in an instant. It's almost a "thrust" with the force of a chop. It's not really meant to be used the way we see it in Star Trek, because they want protracted Klingon duels for the sake of aesthetics only. The reality, is that a bat'leth is almost strictly a kind of "one-hit/one-kill" melee weapon. In that sense, it is impractical for battle, but it would make a lot of sense for duels of honor. In Klingon society, you wouldn't be able to coward your way out by dancing back and forth trying to deflect and dodge and wait for an ideal opening...either you go hard, all-in...or you'll probably be executed for cowardice even if you win. I feel like it's more of an oversight on the showrunners' parts over the years, since the Klingons not only had other exotic melee weapons, but had their own version of katanas of some sort. Very basic-looking and seemingly practical weapons. That, or the mek'leth would be much more practical to take into real battle as a secondary hand weapon. It's a little bit like Star Trek's counterpart to the Lightsaber. Nobody ever uses that correctly, either, because it too is a one-strike weapon. Since the blade itself has no mass and no effect on the balance of the weapon, the balance point is always in the palm of your hand, and the thing is only 2 or 3 lbs anyway. And because it cuts through almost anything with no resistance, a very literal flick of the wrist can cut a whole human body in half. In any lightsaber battle, there's going to be two or three contacts at most. And when you throw in the precognition of force-users, that pretty much just drops to one or two. It also makes sense more that only the Klingon nobility would ever know how to use them. Civilians and commoners wouldn't have a clue. Enlisted troops, being commoners, would probably get some training because honor in the military is important, but unless they got stuck fighting an noble/officer, they'd probably stick with something more practical for any duels of honor among their own class. Everyday Klingon citizens probably never see a bat'leth their entire lives. Not because they're rare or that expensive, but because the Nobles probably don't want them to be in the hands of the lower classes, and also because everyday Klingon citizens probably don't give a fiddler's fuck about "honor". They're doctors, and garbagemen, teachers, mechanics, shopkeepers, IT guys, etc. The people it takes to keep any society going, just like in a culture like Feudal Japan's. The only ones who do care, are the servants of the nobles, because they have to care when they're dealing with nobles or they'll get fuckin dead. I am eager to see how it does against a longsword though. I don't expect it to win, for the reasons stated above, but I don't expect it to be a pushover, either. But keep in mind...you're both familiar with Longswords...so that alone is going to very deeply skew the results.
Definitely looking forward to that Part 2. I'm thinking that if the Bat'leth can get in close, it can easily get behind a sword guard, but if the sword user manages to keep at range then I think it'll fair better. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of similarities to be found between Bat'leth vs Sword and the Sword vs Spear. The sparring showed really how well thought out the Bat'leth design is, and whether by accident or intention, there's even 'evidence' of evolution; the curved tips to defeat the block for example. It can be forgiven a lot due to the Rule Of Cool, which let's be honest, will have been a significant motivation for the original design. Great video. Loved the hard work you and your sparring partner put in.
Seeing this pop up in my feed has reminded me that I actually found a book on how to fight with klingon weapons some time ago. It has full details on both the bat'leth and mek'leth, and had sort of 'kata' for each one.
My impression always: it can carry the momentum round the curve to counter behind a parry (shoulder and elbow strain asured). Thanks for sparring with this. Looking forward to a match between longsword and batleth.
Wooohh SKALL :D you look very good in this fight, total different energy than the spear video. fast, nimble, focused ready to bite! not to downplay your sparring partner, you both do a great job to show us some as real as possible situations, thanks for the great vid!
"That's where this really shines, in grappling." It's almost like the bat'leth was deliberately designed as a close quarters weapon for fighting inside space ships. Well, the more 'modern' ones at any rate. Some of those 'ancient' bat'leths look better suited to more open battle scenarios.
I very much enjoyed seeing the sparring and actual use. I was really hoping to see a long sword in there to see how it compares so I am very much looking forward to your next video. I know it won't be super fair as you have way more practice with the long sword and I assume your sparring partner does too. If the batleth even does okayish that will be a big win for it.
I think the most important thing that gets overlooked in the discussion about the Bat'leth is that they were primarily intended for use in fighting against an opponent also using a Bat'leth. Objectively, you can stack it up against almost any other weapon, whether melee or a firearm, and bring up points of inferiority, but that's natural. In the course of a duel between two fighters both using a Bat'leth, the amount of skill the combatants can express becomes a lot more pronounced. In the context of an honor duel, or a fight for grievance or revenge, it becomes a special breed of 'may the best man win', and a host of special techniques that would be relatively ineffective against another weapon can blossom in the right context. It's all about choosing to fight in a certain way with a certain weapon to show mastery, potential, and strength, and the design speaks to those three things above all others. Sure, you could name some seemingly practical reasons for it, but it's basically a holy weapon, of sorts, and honor itself hinges upon its mastery. I mean, it's effectively a bladed grappling tool, where strength, reflexes, and experience can completely shape the flow of combat; in action, it actually looks like fun to use and experiment with, too.
This is a practical weapon. The weight estimate was written by people who have never held a weapon themselves. Any questions of honorable combat you could feel free to limit to ritual combat such as duels. In genuine combat, I'll quote Lt. Worf. "Nothing is more honorable than victory." If they could demolish a hand on the way to your throat, they would not hesitate. I'll grant you, this is a weapon this would take many years to master, but as an infantry Marine, I see much or our bayonet technique that would be instantly applicable. I see the most effective grip as right hand on the far bottom grip, left hand on the middle grip. The first and second points beg to trap a blade and parrying should be done from the interior curve, then extended into either cut or thrust reposte.
I've felt for a while, especially after years of chatting with my father who used to practice with a quarterstaff regularly, that the Bat'leth would be virtually unstoppable in corridor fighting. I feel that this is largely borne out by the sparring, showing how hard it is to definitively block or control a fight if you can't also control range. I also find it interesting how some of the more elaborate moves shown on TV snuck in there, and how in turn they weren't also automatically disregarded as 'bad' or 'pointless'.
This video was awesome, and I'm glad that the Bat'leth performed better than expected. REALLY looking forward to seeing how it fared vs a more modern sword. Either way, definitive proof that in the setting, in the universe it is being used in, primarily vs other bat'leth's, the weapon not only makes sense but is very functional and makes for a great spectacle to boot. I hope Shad sees this video!
Very interesting and entertaining, indeed :) Really enjoyed your previous bat'leth videos and was hoping for something like this. Looking forward to part 2
The batleth vs batleth bouts looked a lot like stags clashing antlers. Kinda cool looking.
The batleth supposedly started off as horns before they made them out of metal
very fitting for the culture when you look at it that way
Appropriate considering that batleth looks like oversized deer-horn knife from China
Just came here to type this, but you beat me to it. I wonder if the appropriate way to Bat'leth is to ram into, and throw yourself onto your opponent, and finish with a dagger? I believe most Klingons also had a side blade.
@@SolemnlySquid a three pointed dagger called the Dk'Tagh is pretty standard, it had a button activator to flare out smaller blades from the guard.
but Klingons weren't opposed to different knife varieties and carried smaller less robust blades regularly.
A fan theory (Supported by an episode of Voyager) I saw on the internet was the Bat'leth was actually reinvented for defensiveness, so honor duels would last longer and test a warrior's resolve and reflexes further. That way warriors going 1 on 1 for prestige wouldn't slaughter each other immediately and thin the top ranks. Klingons do have traditional swords in their culture, the Bat'leth is considered a specialized honor weapon.
But it's iconic and the props departments has a ton, so they're overrepresented on the shows.
traditional klingon weaponry and their heavily specific uses/rituals give me life
Not exactly. Deathly duels also serve to eliminate the weak. And apparently there is no shortage of Klingons.
This is almost how and why they move ranks.
When Worf kills Duras he uses a Batleth but Duras uses what looks like a scimitar or tulwar.
I've long held the idea that they were designed to be difficult to use. Why? Because that would greater demonstrate the skill and prowess of anyone who mastered their use. Also, until the TNG-era, the idea that anyone would take one into actual battle was seen as ridiculous, as it's not a battlefield weapon. It is meant for dueling against someone else using one. But, some Klingons started using them in actual battles because of the honor associated with using them and the trend rapidly spread throughout the Empire.
In the books it is revealed that the bat'leth was redesigned specifically to fight the hur'q - an alien race that conquered them hundreds of year ago. Modern klingons keep the same design to honor those warriors who drove the hur'q from Kronos and saved the empire.
This is a pleasant surprise, the bat'leth has a lot more subtlety to its attacks than expected and can hit from unexpected angles of attack.
It's unfortunate that HEMA practitioners are so rigid and unable to think outside what they know. Almost as disappointing as the people who believe everything they say as gospel.
I'd be interested in seeing a longsword vs bat'leth fight within the confines of a navy ship interior. As "realistically" that would be the kind of setting in which a bat'leth would see most of its actual combat use. Boarding another ship.
Most HEMA events that i've seen took place in the open air. No real danger of hitting the ceiling, never mind a wall mounted console made of the finest explodium that the federation has to offer.
@@fermitupoupon1754 *console explodes when someone bangs their hand on it in frustration*
@@fermitupoupon1754 Or maybe a one handed sword or other shorter weapon? Would be interesting to see how it fares against other weapons also built for the environment it's used in. Could still be a useful tool to be honest, cause while shorter weapons exchange reach for control, the bat'leth can at will swap the two, gaining reach and losing control, and easily swap back. Not that it's the only weapon that can do so, a dane axe for example (maybe a tad shorter) but idk it seems like it has the possibility to excel.
in the end it seems the main issue of the design is that the shape makes it very prone to twisting on impact (especially when defended) in a way that screws up the edge alignment.
This was super interesting. Glad you didn't dismiss it off hand as useless with no real testing. You bring great honor to your profession. Qapla'!
If I remember the lore correctly, the Bat'leth dates back to a time where shooting any projectile weapons inside a sealed hull spacecraft was HEAVILY frowned upon. Which makes armoured boarding parties with what are essentially space cutlasses a very VERY good idea.
Kahless was pre space travel. It was in corridors in fortifications that the weapon was used
@@toomanyaccounts It does seem to be very well-designed for close-quarters battles in restricted conditions, rather than an open-battlefield weapon.
@@toomanyaccounts To Add to that: Specifically Armoured fighting in corridors I think is where it is optimised, unarmoured a rapier-type would probably be better.
@@Scuzzlebutt142 the klingons tend to have leather armor or heavy cloth and a rapier is a tad light when fighting Klingons whose superior strength and robust bodies would likely break the rapier.
@@toomanyaccounts Don't underestimate the rapier. The Rapier is still a sword and breaking it would not only require a lot of strength but also a good bind so you can apply that strenght to break the rapier. That's very unlikely. Unless you were talking about simply bending the rapier by attacking it with such force that parrying the Bat'leth would result in deforming the rapier. But my guess is that the hand of the one holding the rapier would break before the blade bends in any significant way.
Of course there is also the possibility that people don't talk about a rapier but an epee, which is made for thrusting only and therefore has a very thin "blade" without an actual blade. That thing is quite thin, but I think it's not a real weapon of war and more of a sports or duel thing.
There were times during the fight it almost reminded me of two deer locking antlers.
Good, I'm not the only one.
"Goat butts against hedge and his horns become entangled." - Egg Shen (Big Trouble in Little China)
EXACTLY!
agreed.
Seems like a weapon that's made for curbstomping a novice opponent. Very intimidating, several points to keep track of, excels at blocking unga bunga chops, slips guard easily, and you can almost use it as shield just to get in close and grapple.
Now that I think about it wow it fits that category perfectly
In Skalls first video on the Bat'leth years back, he talked about the Lore, and that was Basically the purpose of the Bat'leth. A weapon that would Take attention away from Klingons' Natural Strength, and force them to work on Technique.
SILENCE WORMS!
@@datdabdoe1417 You put capital letters in the most random places...
Which makes a lot of sense given Most enemies of the Klingon empire are not CQC trained.
Starfleet officers make use of some defensive martial arts & Vulcans are pacifists who rarely carry martial weapons. Most CQC oriented aliens in the Alpha quadrant often rely on brute strength like the Nausicaans. So the Klingons rarely engage well trained martial combatants.
The batleth's forward curve might make it better at piercing helmets, or very thick Klingon skulls.
That might also explain how Klingon's got those thick bumpy foreheads in the first place hehe! :P
They're also good for reaching over and around shields.
I'm not sure about piercing skulls, the design looks a lot like a weapon of attrition in many ways where you could get a quick kill, but a lot of fights are more of bleeding each other out with cuts and gouges...which makes sense considering the redundancies and other things that klingons have that make them hard to take down.
Strike the 3rd percipatal lobe. Death is instantaneous
Or a stab to the gut
(I don't remember how many Klingons where killed this way during DS9 🙄)
Looking forward to part 2.
As to how honorable a Klingon would be in battle, I defer to Worf. "In war, there is nothing more honorable than victory."
worf was such a great character in late TNG and DS9
I will say this. The batleth exists in in a sci-fi setting where almost everyone probably prefers ranged weapons. In the rare instance of a melee, having troops capable of highly lethal CQC is a boon. Combat knives still exist for a reason.
And the reason is that they're extremely useful tools...
I really don't think even the super special forces dudes see them as weapons *per se*
We even have combat shovels now too that are actually highly effective. ALOT of troops even still use things like tomahawks sometimes
@@sirdeakia since they see EVERYTHING as a weapon, it would probably score a little higher in usefulness than a corkscrew, but only if that corkscrew isn't part of a swiss army knife 😎
@@nicolaiveliki1409 yeah, but if push comes to shove i'm sure they're pulling out pistols hahaha
Also pretty much every rifle has the ability to put the knife on it to turn the rifle into a spear.
One of the reasons that you're my favorite content creator in this niche is that you actually take these ideas from the philosophical to the hypothetical to the practical. I appreciate your scientific approach and when you share your findings with us. In addition to the sword, please also test it against axe and spear (and cat o nine tails)
Practically, I assume the Baleth was good for the TV show because it supported close in drawn out fights, requiring less stage space and asking it easier to keep both in frame.
It's also probably pretty easy to fake being good at.
@@Crazael Choreography can make anyone fake being good at anything, as long as it is that one set of movements in that circumstance which is being done. A good actor would be better at learning a given set of movements and adapting to changes faster, but even then it is the skill of the choreographer which is more important.
"Nothing is more honorable than victory" for a Klingon, they have a different notion of "honor", so I definitively see them targeting hands if it brings victory.
Also the Klingon relation to Bat'leth is like sword for HEMA. A gun is more effective, but the traditional weapon of legends is way closer to the heart ^^
it reallt depends on the context. in a battle? sure, theyll go for hands, feet, even the crotch, but in a duel i dont think they would, since the point of a duel is to prove strength and prowess, not who can score the first cheap shot.
@@viysnjor4811 Traditional non-lethal rules for Klingon duels are for three knockdowns. A distracting injury like a hand wound would be a reasonable thing to inflict first round.
If you got it in your skilled, if you take it and win your tough.
Now imagine the only practical setting for deploying this weapon is in the narrow confined halls of a spaceship where there are lots of points for ambush. There's basically no room for maneuver. That practical limitation paired with hundreds or thousands of years of use as a weapon of ritual combat would make sense for how it's used
I could certainly see Klingon ships having more cornered hallways, to take away the advantage from ranged weapons in favor of CQC, like the trenches in both world wars.
It's lore that early spacefaring Klingon frowned on the use of ranged weapons aboard ships due to the risk of a stray shot causing explosive decompression, so they used melee weapons.
I almost imagine the original version of it was longer, probably straighter, much like Skal's redesign but maybe even longer. But when they moved to ships, they got shorter and more suited to close-quarters brawls, and eventually became monolithic in construction. Forward-curving spikes formed to suit puncturing armor in near-grapples, and once ranges weapons came back into favor the design became a matter of tradition: you didn't _need_ to use one anymore so the design stopped evolving, but if you _did_ use grandpa's old weapon to take down a room full of guys with disruptors _oh boy_ did you get bragging rights.
Very similar to the change from sabers to cutlass by real-world navies, and some of our own legends. Kind of like the stories of Lieutenant Colonel Jack Churchill taking a bloody greatsword into WWII, we _remember_ that kinda stuff.
I've always wanted a scene in Trek were a Klingon faces a properly trained human armed with a sword.
Even if it was on the Holodeck I think it would be fascinating to see how the series Warriors react to the styles and tools of humanities own warrior past.
They'd look at some of our weapons and love alot of our bigger nastier weapons like Naginatas or Halberds. An they'd love anything using strength an aggression like axes. They'd underestimate maybe our weirder weapons like scythes spears an most swords or be VERY suspicious of them until they find out just HOW deadly an skilled these are in the hands of properly trained an experienced masters and they'd be surprised what some our Grandmasters can do with some of these
Try the fight where Worf kills Duras. Worf uses a Bat'leth while the honoless ptaQ fights with a Sword.
@@momokochama1844 But with what's essentially an arming sword - a useful sidearm, but not a main weapon unless you also have a shield. I think people were talking about longswords and greatswords or duelling weapons such as the shortsword or rapier.
@Darth Revan are you sure? I admit, I'm no expert with blade weapons, but Duras's sword looks more like some saber or Messer (a short one 😄).
It looks a bit too short and too curved for a katana.
@@robertagu5533 scythe doesn't seem like a practical weapon to me either.
The bind seems really wild with these, Id be curious if there could be any techniques that could be developed to weave around in the bind better.
This looks like fun actually
It seems perfect for closing gap in the bind.
Go for a high, downward strike - let it be blocked in high bind
Use the bind to redirect the lower half of the weapons downward momentum into a forward thrust at chest level under their engaged bind defence.
The binds look really complex in a very fun way. Between that and the ability of the extra prongs and double-ended nature to sneak in little pokes and cuts past an imperfect guard, these seem like they make for really intriguing sparring.
I did indeed find this both interesting and entertaining, and I'm looking forward to part two.
Didn't expect Bat'let fight to be as interesting to watch as classic HEMA fights and yet it is!
Great video Skall!
I like how when you switch from two-handed to one-haded midswing it looks like a spring in the mousetrap or smth. Pretty cinematic.
Somehow Skallagrim looks even better than usual with head bumps. :)
Thank you SO much for actually testing this! Most YT people just glance at the bat'leth and dismiss it. I remember being very intrigued by one singular comment on some video claiming to be a HEMA-ish guy that routinely destroyed swords with a bat'leth, but, anyone can type that...
I’ve heard similar stories about this happening with other unorthodox weapons, and I wonder how much of it is just catching your opponent completely off guard with something they have no experience countering against.
The bat'leth seems like the most practical version of the fantasy/sci-fi "double sword" concept, by having both blade be curved and blunt on the back end to protect from the usual problem of cutting oneself. That and it's relatively short. Great video!
It is a lot more practical than Darth Maul's double bladed lightsabre if you think about how you actually use a staff in combat.
YEEEES! This is just awesome. Thanks for giving it a go for real. It's great to see people taking this weapon more seriously and really digging in. Qapla', Skall!
Blood singing through their veins, they clashed in an onslaught of hatred and fury. Thundering echoes erupted as steel bit steel, every blow, pregnant with the promise of blood. Through gritted teeth and iron focus, both warriors knew his fate rest upon a killing edge... Glorious was that sound...! GLORIOUS WAS THE SOUND OF THUNDER!!!
I was not prepared for Klingon Skal! 😂
I think in cramped hallways or passageways aboard a vessel, the batleth would work quite well. You want to get into their space as quickly as possible, and have limited room to do so, anyway.
I think it requires some space to swing it around so for real cramped space i would pick a Mek'leth.
Looking forward to the longsword vs bat'leth! I was surprised that it ended up being as effective as it was, taught me a lesson here not to just dismiss some things out of hand
The most interesting part of Bat'Leth fighting is that they had no dedicated staff for the choreography so it was a fighting style consisting of "whatever" with the only real consistency being spinning. On the design though I think the staggered handles are for two purposes, it lets you reinforce that blade so it doesn't bend or break as easily in a fight between opponents with superhuman strength. It's also most likely helps with weight distribution, if you had a single hole you would have a harder time actually physically making the weapon and keeping it balanced, which as you can tell, is key to using it properly. It has to be thick heavy and solid to kill a Klingon and it has to be practical enough to justify it's continued use in honor duels as knives and a curved katana style blade were also used in Klingon duels during TNG, interestingly the "Klingon katana" was used against a Bat'Leth.
+3:29 I can see dipping low and following with an upward rising strike with the lower blade being what one would find more effective here they just block high - you have them close and pretty much bound them with the forks and can - well "gut them" literally. and that is a simpler movement than what is shown here too.
I have wanted a proper fight test of the Bat'leth forever! This was a lot of fun to watch.
On the point of using blades instead of guns, it is pretty clearly established that while the Klingons do prefer melee, they're not stupid. They know that any sort of ranged weapon is better in most circumstances, and that's precisely why they like to use blades when possible, because of the challenge. Still, as Worf said once, in war, nothing is more honorable than victory
if it grants victory, they'll gladly shoot first, but they often switched to melee if the opponent was within 20 feet, because much shorter than that and ranged weapons become less effective, especially with the severe lack of anything approximating a shotgun in star trek
@@realmofrandom3696 Yeah, particularly in the tight confines of a starship or space station, it's very easy to close that gap before an enemy can bring a gun to bear. As for there not being any shotgun like weapons, it would be rather difficult to design something like that using a phaser or disruptor, judging by how they seem to operate, and gas operated weapons like what we would think of as a gun have a laundry list of problems when operated in anything outside of a planet's atmosphere. That's why even military space installations don't bother to give the crew or the station guns, because combustion is a bit weird without oxygen, if not completely impossible
@@filmandfirearms I do vaguely recall an episode of the original series where a phaser was used with a setting for a wide beam to clear an alley way, but I think that only happened once. On a separate note, firearms can operate in a vacuum to a certain degree because the propellant doesn't rely on oxygen outside of the casing to ignite, where things can get tricky is with self loading guns that are gas operated, something that doesn't rely on the excess gas to cycle the action would be better. But even then, why use a traditional gun when you can use a phaser that doesn't require bulky ammunition and is far more compact and versatile than any firearm?
@@realmofrandom3696
_"I do vaguely recall an episode of the original series where a phaser was used with a setting for a wide beam to clear an alley way, but I think that only happened once."_
More than once. Spock used it to clear a hall in _Whom Gods Destroy,_ and it was used in _Return of the Archons_ to clear the alley, and Sulu used it in _The Enemy Within_ to heat rocks. "Wide beam" phasers are used in other contexts, too, in every series. A quick google search reveals examples from Voyager and DS9.
@@filmandfirearms You clearly have no idea how gunpowder works. Guns work just fine with no ambient oxygen, the oxidiser is part of the powder. Guns work underwater, they would work just fine in space too. The lack of real guns is purely a stylistic choice, there is no logic behind it at all.
The sparring footage gives credence to the fan theory that the Bat'leth was mainly designed as a defensive weapon.
It has such a large surface area to parry with, is shaped to catch the opponent's blade and control it, while keeping the hands largely protected, with the wide two-handed grip making it pretty maneuverable despite the weight. Defending with it seems much easier than attacking efficiently, a skill Klingons historically lacked due to their innate bloodlust. And it does so without the user resorting to such "cowardly" and "dishonorable" acts like "cowering" behind a shield.
The typical Bat'leth user may just have outlived users of other weapon styles on average - making it easier for them to gain experience and become even better with their weapon. Reckless and aggressive actions are the hallmark of a Klingon warrior, especially young and inexperienced ones - so a weapon that gives your recruits an edge against similarly untrained opponents (while still satisfying the social norms so the enemy can't claim a cultural victory) is absolutely something you'd want to foster.
In modern Klingon society it's more of a status symbol and traditional piece of equipment, like how IRL sabres still saw some use on the battlefield here or there well into the 19th century, despite almost half a millennium of firearm use.
I love these sparing videos, it's great to see you apply these theories. I'm also learning a lot in seeing your footwork and weapon handling.
At first they looked completely not used to the Bat'leth, then about 1 minute into sparing you guys got good, and accurately pro-traded how to use it. I would like to see you guys fight with the Mek'leth next.
Yeah, I really noticed that as well. As they learned, their fighting style changed a lot. I wonder what it would be like if there was such a thing as a Bat'leth system, backed by a history of use and training.
I’d definitely like to see that part II. Seeing them Vs each other whetted that appetite for me
Another great video Skall, great Klingon impression!
Always wondered if this was practical in combat
This was a very interesting exchange, I can't wait to see how it fares against longswords.
Thanks. Very cool doing a duel with them, this is great content.
An honorable weapon for a more honorable time.
Kirk: come on Chang....put down the chicken shit disruptor....i know what you want....stick the knife in me and see what's going on in there when you twist it......
Chang: I'm not gonna shoot you between the eyes....i don't need no disruptor [tosses it aside and draws bat'leth]....I'm gonna kill you now!!!! [swings bat'leth wildly]
Kirk: [a large metal pipe skewers Chang in the fight].....let off some steam Chang!
Adm Kirby: did you leave any for us?
Kirk: just bodies
Adm Kirby: I'd like you to consider coming back..
Kirk: no chance [power station - we fight for love plays]
yes I melded 2 things into one sue me....lol
I dont like water, puny humans drink that.
Glorious! Finally we get some quality footage of people actually trying that Bat'leth instead of dismissing it out of hand. I very much am looking forwards to part 2.
And thanks to Sindri for always being there to test out Skall's shenanigans.
When you think about it, it's just a very pointy quarter staff.
So you are saying it's a Buck and a Quarterstaff...
@@paulkerr7320 Indeed, Daffy. Indeed.
A buck and a quarter quarterstaff.
The weapon is pretty versatile. Despite the awkward shape it does force both fighters to be continuously aware of multiple defense and offensive opportunities at the same time while practicing.
Good practice weapon for building awareness.
Overall a really good video, though there is one correction I have to make. Klingon Honor isn't like the popular concept of Chilvary or the stereotype of the Samurai; it's a lot more pragmatic. Any thing that gets you victory in battle goes so long as you actually fight. Even sending assassins to kill your enemies is okay, as it's expected that a true warrior should be ready to fight at all times. Something dishonorable would be poisoning your enemy, being taken prisoner without a fight, or in one specific case using economic manipulation to try to destroy a rival house so you can absorb all their lands. Ambushes, artillery barrages, snipers, espionage, etc are all fair game. The average warrior will accept an invitation to duel, but generally is content just shooting you.
Klingons have no issue using disruptors and do so regularly. We rarely see bat'leths in actual fights on screen outside of duels and the only real noncerimonial noncombat use we saw was during a boarding action with plenty of tight corridors and fighting getting into melee range.
Klingons are _not_ Space Orcs, they are significantly more complicated than that.
Samurai used guns, and inoghts possibly too. Do you think they did not have all kind of dirty tricks,
Chivalry is only against other nobles, and only really is there that if one noble might rebel, there is a code that does discentivise to join that. And that they fight each other without certain rules and maintain order, and "honor" is apealing to that really.
Like knights and samurai really could do what else with common people. That homor is more a code that nobles check themselves, against nobles, like the king, and dont get stupid ideas like rebellions.
So klingons are probably the perfect representation. Really honor of knights and samurai wasnt dissimilar, and very pragmatic, unless you go against nobles.
You both fought with honor, glory to your houses. Qapla!!💪
I like how the reflection of the green screen on the batleth makes it look transparent.
Shame I can like this video only once. Always appreciate Star Trek content.
Definitely want part two.
Bat'leth vs sword and shield, since the bat'leth itself kind of does both jobs?
Bat'leth vs spear?
Bat'leth vs halberd?
Yes, can it hold up vs the mighty stick.
You’re an absolute mad lad for trying this with so much fidelity. If there was an “well that was unexpected,” button on TH-cam I’d hit it for this video.
Seems like it performs kind of like a sickle-axe hybrid. The curvature allows it to bypass blocks and it will be better than many weapons in grappling like a sickle, while the points focus the strikes in a small area for devastating damage like an axe.
Looking forward to see Bat'leth vs Longsword (As well as any other types of historical weapons you guys might try it against such as arming sword, spear, dane axe etc)
This was way more enjoyable to watch than I expected. Really looking forward to Part II.
And boy, it looks really stylish when you swing it around, and as you said, it's for a purpose and not showing off. As a fan it makes me happy to see it being more practical than expected. Event though a lot can be handwaved by it being a ritual/traditional weapon, much less handwaving than I expected is needed.
Another thing to remember Klingons are "between more than three times stronger but less then five times stronger then Humans". So that Batleth feels like a nimble little short sword to them and they can actually manipulate it 1 handed like it is 1/3rd of its weight compared to a human.
This is one of the rare channels where mentioning a follow up video gets me genuinely excited. Looking forward to part 2!
I see like the batketh like a katana, mostly fighting against the same kind of weapons. And in Star Trek they are fighting unarmored non melee weapon wielding opponents
Also with an emphasis on fighting agressively, rather than defensively.
Katanas were backup weapons like arming swords...used as a last resort if you can't use your other better weapons like a polearm, bow, musket, mace, axe, or longer swords (longer longswords/claymores/greatswords, nodachis, etc).
@@Intranetusa in war they were backups weapons, but in use katana were a duking weapon .Also they Japanese didn't use longer swords. The Odachi was rarely used and was a footman weapon not a samurai weapon
@@Intranetusa seems like what a batleth is. obviously your first weapon is likely still going to be a phaser. But we can also look at the difference between klingon and federation ships.
Federation ships have wide hallways without much cover or sharp angles that allow for more comfortable transit and ranged combat. federation ships pretty much count on not being boarded and when boarded expect a gunfight.
Klingon ships have relatively cramped corridors and very sharp angles as well as bulkheads for cover every now and then as well as exposed conduits. This makes it much harder to use phasers or guns since a stray shot can burst a plasma conduit effectively killing everyone (including your boarding party) in the room and the tight corridors mean that it's hard to bring multiple guns to bear. Because of this it's very easy to use melee weapons or CQC weapons like a sword or a dagger. My guess is that the Batleth is the evolved form of a halberd but suited to combat in the tight corridors of a spaceship in zero g. It's light enough to be used in one hand (by klingons), can hook onto various handholds, and allows you to control the opponent's weapon. You still need to be careful with the Batleth but it seems like the ways you can control a melee weapon with the Batleth would do it preferentially so that the weapon wouldn't go on to hit exposed subsystems or go at a 90 degree angle towards the hull. The Mekleth is similar in that it doesn't actually have any real thrusting power instead the point is barred by a flat, likely to prevent hull puncture.
In other words it's very probable that the Batleth and Mekleth were in fact created when klingons first took to space and Kahless's story might actually begin around the same level of civilization depicted in The Expanse or Gundam. I can also imagine that technological development is quite slow in the Klingon Empire and details tend to get muddied after 1400 years.
@@anilin6353 In the very late era (eg. 1700s+) would katanas be duking weapons because longer swords were banned/no longer made and there weren't many battles anymore. During earlier eras of war, tachis were longer than most later katanas and are more practical than katanas too. Nodachis (and katanas) were used by both Samurai and non-Samurai. Many Japanese lords had their bodyguards equipped with nodachis as a display of strength.
I do not comment often, but being a long time watcher of you channel & a huge Star Trek fan, I most state that I approve of this content.
Now, may you live long & prosper!
I gotta say, i really love when you do bat'leth stuff :D
I am following you with differing accounts for a very long time and i like, how you keep beeing yourself, whilest upgrading the quality of your content constantly. Keep it up!
Shad's gonna have a conniption watching this, and made a 2 hour video rebuttal of this video
2 hours? You think he'd be that concise? :)
@@Skallagrim Two hours of rebuttal. The first eight hours are just him telling everyone that he's _going_ to rebut it.
@@Sableagle plus an hour-long Hello Fresh plug.
Great vid Skal, I always felt that it had a place n the confines of boarding actions for example and seeing your sparring really confirmed that for me.
That was interesting to see, but what I really hoped for was how well it works against something conventional, such as a straight blade, a shield, or a polearm. Also maybe consideration for weather it suits armored or unarmored fighting.
Comparable human fighting could easily best it if the Human knows what they're doing an up against reasonable. Our arsenal of Human choices is ridiculous compared to just about all the Trek races combined. An MOST other races that took an interest in Human Martial Arts I would imagine would be VERY impressed with just how long it can take a Human to go from day 1 novice to Grandmaster top tier Black Belt. An that there's often MULTIPLE levels of Master, Many different fighting Arts and styles of them, they ALL suit specific niches, an ALL even specialize in unique weapons while many oddly share alot of weapons too. Even a Vulcan might find it illogical that to a Trek alien its actually pretty simple to us Humans.
I read somewhere in Klingon lore that Kahless observed fighters attacking with reckless abandon as they hadn't tempered their instincts. He designed the bat'leth so that warriors would be forced to think defensively, but made it 'double ended' so they would not cower from battle either. If I ever get the time, that's the concept I'd like to explore. Thanks for pointing out purple heart, that's the best option I've found thus far.
Thank you very much for sparring video. It was nice to see them in action.
As I watched all the reverse hits and wide flourishes it made me think of the culture and environment where these are used as well as their shape. I thought of tight corridors and a culture that glorified strength and charging weaker enemies in tight quarters to terrify and over power them. I thought of bulls charging through corridors and deer locking antlers and rhinoceros beetles trying to fling one another off branches. It makes me think a Klingon would want to use it like a bull dozer in a corridor to charge down the hall and gore everyone in front of him to cause enemies to flee and trample on another as they fail to shoot back. Minimal swings maximal pushing with slight back and forth motions would do the trick. Facing another Klingon would be them smashing into one another like fearless warriors and trying to push the other’s weapon out of the way through strength rather than swinging around it and keeping your distance like a coward…or someone with enough sense to not take a blade to a blaster fight.
Innovative material...!!!
Those releases are quick and more effective then I realized....
Amazed how many times the second spike held up in attack and defense !!!
Today on the holodeck
Great video! You two looked totally badass sparring with them
Oh my
Edit: As I appear to have posted the first comment, I might as well ask you to do a review of fighting scenes in Alatriste (2006).
You know, I've been watching this channel for years. And this is probably my favorite thing I've seen on here. Because to be fair, although I do love Star Trek and the Klingons are my favorite race, I am not obsessed with the Bat'leth like some are. But the notion that you'd take this seriously and actually give this thing a true attempt, and it's ability to hold it's own is truly incredible to watch in a real fight. Good job, this was very well done.
I remember an episode of DS9 where Kor, an old Klingon from TOS, said the first Bat'leth was used to farm Kahless's father's fields. With this in mind, how do you think it stacks up against farming implements in a fight?
harvest. it was also said to be used to carve a statue of Kahless's wife. Kor was using it as examples of the ordinary uses of the sword by Kahless
Kina like a big scythe. Which would be one of our closest equivalents. Which I bet some of our weapons of melee weapon some Klingons would find MOST interesting an surprising too. Like "I tested this Human weapon an looked into it's lore an I was honored to find this Axe MOST satisfying".. or "These Humans got the idea to put a knife on the end of a rope an swing it in circles really fast before throwing it at their enemies... You wouldn't think it'd be effective or that hard but it's really quite a challenge to work with an can be deadly effective" the Vulcan said...
An Quark said: "yes, yes now is there still a market for these an how much are the rare ones worth???"
@@robertagu5533 spot on
The line always struck me since the design itself seemed really well suited for harvesting wheat or sunflowers. The bat'leth would make a lot of sense if it was originally a farming tool that was used as an improvised weapon, especially given Kahless's humble origins.
It was an appropriate study. For yrs i contemplated batleth strategy, specifically as a rebellion against skallagrim. After a yr not watching skallagrim, i see hes decided to muss about with batleth. You go.
It would be interesting to see how two energy swards (halo) would interact. As the Sangheili have a similar warrior ethic and mentally.
I remember seeing a meme once describing how a bat'leth was the ideal sword for half-swording
i think a twinblade would work as well Skall, more than people think but it should be used more like a spear.
This was very interesting and bears some comparison with a few old TH-cam videos of people sparing with heavily padded versions by obvious non-HEMA types.
Those tended to use them defensively and rarely one handed.
Your video displays it's greater flexibility of attack and counter.
Something interesting to note is that, while I don't believe it's directly stated anywhere, the Bat'leth is treated by Star Trek as a largely ceremonial weapon. It's used most often in one-on-one duels with other Bat'leth users for ceremonial purposes and is a weapon with deep ties to their culture. It still works in the setting as an effective melee weapon because nobody else seems to have melee weapons of any kind. Like, not even a knife.
Well you know that the Vulkans got a ceremonial halberd like weapon for ritual combat that looks like a staff with one end being weighted and bulbus and the other possessing a fan shaped blade?
I don't know enough Star Trek lore to really confirm or deny this, but I always had similar assumptions. I've always seen it as a weapon that is optimized to have a high skill ceiling and interesting combat strategies more than for efficiency on a battlefield. Something intended pretty specifically for duels with matched weapons. I think it's very plausible as a weapon you'd challenge a neighboring warlord with, in a context where the army you send when he chickens out would still have spears or disruptors depending on the age.
Thanks, Skallagrim! Always nice to see critiques like this!
I can imagine Irish stick fighting to be be semi effective utilizing this sort of weapon. It's got the same capabilities of switching off hands as certain techniques in Irish stick fighting, and that martial art employes boxing in addition to striking with the weapon, which seems like it would suit a klingon.
And here I built a bat'leth from 6061 aluminum for this very purpose, to approach the bat'leth with an unbiased and scholarly perspective and actually test the weapon in sparring. Only now I find that Purpleheart, God bless them, makes a practical trainer from nylon XD Great video, Skall! Looking forward to part 2.
I think a bat’leth may be most ideal in dealing with plate armor.
looks at Hur'k insectoid warriors..... seems legit.
My mom would have loved to see this...unlike me who liked Star Wars more, my mother was a fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek so she wold have been interested to see how this weapon would work for real vs the lore...might have even got me a trainer like this if I asked for one.
I still think it's more of a status symbol than a reasonable weapon due to the amount of steel just for it to be effective in battle.
Worf literally uses it in a duel to kill another Klingon
I always thought that the purpose of the weapon was to not be great so the skill of the warrior is the most important aspect
maybe it is made of titanium-scandium alloy with steel edges brazed in
@@LaughingCrowcorp the fact that it's a duel proves my point, though. There's nothing about the shape that makes it more effective against spears than a sword, but it somehow stuck around in a time of lasers and guns.
And even if you can argue that a batleth could win more duels than a sword, most militaries present and past don't actually care that much about having the best equipment. For example: many products targeted towards high end customers say they exceed mil spec, but you'll meet veterans who'll tell you mil spec simply means it's proven to be reliable enough without costing too much. The batleth fails at that
Any sort of even basicly advanced civilization that can produce good steel cost of it isnt that much to make it status symbol imho
This was really interesting. That and the recent sickle fighting videos definitely made very happy, looking forward to part 2.
my headcanon is that the bat'leth is smertical because klingons are most if not all ambidextrious or learned ambidextrious so this design makes it easier to switch grips and also keeps your enemy on his toes ... also the original design of the Sword of Khales with one continuos grip does seem like a weapon with defence in mind as much as offence (which is a major thing for klingons since they don't sue shield)
If the weapon is symmetrical, then the attack could come from any direction. If it weren't, you would know which side was more dangerous and be able to predict better just by watching it.
mad respect for going back and taking another look at this
The bat'leth is meant to be an aggressive weapon with defensive options. It's intended to bum-rush a target, maybe perform one deflection of their own weapon, and then quickly come around for the kill. Let's face it, if you're unarmored and you take a hit from one of those things, you're done. A sword will leave a gash, and probably put you down, but one of those bat'leth points will flat-out gut you in an instant. It's almost a "thrust" with the force of a chop.
It's not really meant to be used the way we see it in Star Trek, because they want protracted Klingon duels for the sake of aesthetics only. The reality, is that a bat'leth is almost strictly a kind of "one-hit/one-kill" melee weapon.
In that sense, it is impractical for battle, but it would make a lot of sense for duels of honor. In Klingon society, you wouldn't be able to coward your way out by dancing back and forth trying to deflect and dodge and wait for an ideal opening...either you go hard, all-in...or you'll probably be executed for cowardice even if you win.
I feel like it's more of an oversight on the showrunners' parts over the years, since the Klingons not only had other exotic melee weapons, but had their own version of katanas of some sort. Very basic-looking and seemingly practical weapons. That, or the mek'leth would be much more practical to take into real battle as a secondary hand weapon.
It's a little bit like Star Trek's counterpart to the Lightsaber. Nobody ever uses that correctly, either, because it too is a one-strike weapon. Since the blade itself has no mass and no effect on the balance of the weapon, the balance point is always in the palm of your hand, and the thing is only 2 or 3 lbs anyway. And because it cuts through almost anything with no resistance, a very literal flick of the wrist can cut a whole human body in half. In any lightsaber battle, there's going to be two or three contacts at most. And when you throw in the precognition of force-users, that pretty much just drops to one or two.
It also makes sense more that only the Klingon nobility would ever know how to use them. Civilians and commoners wouldn't have a clue. Enlisted troops, being commoners, would probably get some training because honor in the military is important, but unless they got stuck fighting an noble/officer, they'd probably stick with something more practical for any duels of honor among their own class. Everyday Klingon citizens probably never see a bat'leth their entire lives. Not because they're rare or that expensive, but because the Nobles probably don't want them to be in the hands of the lower classes, and also because everyday Klingon citizens probably don't give a fiddler's fuck about "honor". They're doctors, and garbagemen, teachers, mechanics, shopkeepers, IT guys, etc. The people it takes to keep any society going, just like in a culture like Feudal Japan's. The only ones who do care, are the servants of the nobles, because they have to care when they're dealing with nobles or they'll get fuckin dead.
I am eager to see how it does against a longsword though. I don't expect it to win, for the reasons stated above, but I don't expect it to be a pushover, either. But keep in mind...you're both familiar with Longswords...so that alone is going to very deeply skew the results.
Would be nice to see a spar of bat'leth versus more traditional weapon.
Definitely looking forward to that Part 2. I'm thinking that if the Bat'leth can get in close, it can easily get behind a sword guard, but if the sword user manages to keep at range then I think it'll fair better. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of similarities to be found between Bat'leth vs Sword and the Sword vs Spear.
The sparring showed really how well thought out the Bat'leth design is, and whether by accident or intention, there's even 'evidence' of evolution; the curved tips to defeat the block for example. It can be forgiven a lot due to the Rule Of Cool, which let's be honest, will have been a significant motivation for the original design.
Great video. Loved the hard work you and your sparring partner put in.
Seeing this pop up in my feed has reminded me that I actually found a book on how to fight with klingon weapons some time ago. It has full details on both the bat'leth and mek'leth, and had sort of 'kata' for each one.
My impression always: it can carry the momentum round the curve to counter behind a parry (shoulder and elbow strain asured). Thanks for sparring with this. Looking forward to a match between longsword and batleth.
Wooohh SKALL :D you look very good in this fight, total different energy than the spear video.
fast, nimble, focused ready to bite!
not to downplay your sparring partner, you both do a great job to show us some as real as possible situations, thanks for the great vid!
That was awesome spar footage.
You deflected and countered very well, and your feints were so dope.
"That's where this really shines, in grappling." It's almost like the bat'leth was deliberately designed as a close quarters weapon for fighting inside space ships. Well, the more 'modern' ones at any rate. Some of those 'ancient' bat'leths look better suited to more open battle scenarios.
Man that was cool seeing y'all wield them in a more practical fashion. I did find the binds pretty interesting as the blades interacted up close
The sparing was really fun to watch, also really like the background music for the sparing.
I very much enjoyed seeing the sparring and actual use. I was really hoping to see a long sword in there to see how it compares so I am very much looking forward to your next video.
I know it won't be super fair as you have way more practice with the long sword and I assume your sparring partner does too. If the batleth even does okayish that will be a big win for it.
I think the most important thing that gets overlooked in the discussion about the Bat'leth is that they were primarily intended for use in fighting against an opponent also using a Bat'leth. Objectively, you can stack it up against almost any other weapon, whether melee or a firearm, and bring up points of inferiority, but that's natural. In the course of a duel between two fighters both using a Bat'leth, the amount of skill the combatants can express becomes a lot more pronounced. In the context of an honor duel, or a fight for grievance or revenge, it becomes a special breed of 'may the best man win', and a host of special techniques that would be relatively ineffective against another weapon can blossom in the right context.
It's all about choosing to fight in a certain way with a certain weapon to show mastery, potential, and strength, and the design speaks to those three things above all others. Sure, you could name some seemingly practical reasons for it, but it's basically a holy weapon, of sorts, and honor itself hinges upon its mastery. I mean, it's effectively a bladed grappling tool, where strength, reflexes, and experience can completely shape the flow of combat; in action, it actually looks like fun to use and experiment with, too.
This is a practical weapon. The weight estimate was written by people who have never held a weapon themselves. Any questions of honorable combat you could feel free to limit to ritual combat such as duels. In genuine combat, I'll quote Lt. Worf. "Nothing is more honorable than victory." If they could demolish a hand on the way to your throat, they would not hesitate.
I'll grant you, this is a weapon this would take many years to master, but as an infantry Marine, I see much or our bayonet technique that would be instantly applicable. I see the most effective grip as right hand on the far bottom grip, left hand on the middle grip. The first and second points beg to trap a blade and parrying should be done from the interior curve, then extended into either cut or thrust reposte.
I've felt for a while, especially after years of chatting with my father who used to practice with a quarterstaff regularly, that the Bat'leth would be virtually unstoppable in corridor fighting. I feel that this is largely borne out by the sparring, showing how hard it is to definitively block or control a fight if you can't also control range.
I also find it interesting how some of the more elaborate moves shown on TV snuck in there, and how in turn they weren't also automatically disregarded as 'bad' or 'pointless'.
Loved! Can't wait to see multiple sparring video with different weapons! Including the sickle! (at least for fun, a couple)
This video was awesome, and I'm glad that the Bat'leth performed better than expected. REALLY looking forward to seeing how it fared vs a more modern sword.
Either way, definitive proof that in the setting, in the universe it is being used in, primarily vs other bat'leth's, the weapon not only makes sense but is very functional and makes for a great spectacle to boot. I hope Shad sees this video!
Very interesting and entertaining, indeed :) Really enjoyed your previous bat'leth videos and was hoping for something like this. Looking forward to part 2
Thar must have been a blast looked super fun!