One thing regarding the shorter range of the weapon, is that it might be more applicable in a cramped area like the inside of a ship, while still being more powerful and have more leverage than a simple dagger. Imagine trying to swing a long sword or katana inside a cramped ship hallway and hitting the walls and ceiling while the double handed use of the bat'leth is like half-swording (something ppl used back in the day for more leverage and more precise penetration of armor weak points). Just a thought.
I made my daughter a bat-leith replica for her birthday. It is in a case with "To defend honor. Break glass" written in Klingon on the glass. She loves it.
Skallagrim did a video on the Bat'leth and the mekleth a while ago I think and if I recall correctly he wasn't that impressed with the Bat'leth but he had some good things to say about the mekleth
He did a Mek'leth test only. He mentions the Bat'leth in the video and gave a brief preliminary review of the design, but said that he would hold judgement on it until he could get his hands on a functional replica and test it.
One rather interesting theory I've heard regarding the effectiveness and purpose of the Bat'leth: It's staff like nature and short reach make it a remarkably *powerful* weapon when engaging in tight quarters, like the halls of a fortress or castle, where longer reach weapons would be at a greater disadvantage. It's possible that during Khaless' time, and even through much of Klingon History, Klingon warfare was waged in protracted seiges and breakings of fortresses, necessitating the compact and 'tightly wound tornado of death' style of the weapon.
it could also suggest that klingons evolved for (and typically live in) tightly confined (and atleast moderately brutal) terrain, such as maze-like canyons, and jagged valleys, ravines, gullies, caves, and other types of very rugged, irregular, and unspacious terrains. Later on they would develop cities, garrisons, fortresses, and dug-out mines and tunnels, which only escalated and intensified this sort of terrain, and so the klingons merely continued to double-down on their already evolved tendencies for close-in squad-to-platoon based labyrinthine warfare.
Dan Curry Who designed the Bat’leth based it on historical Tibetan weapons. It’s a very good weapon against lots of types of swords irl, but takes skill to use. You can buy blunt versions for tai chi practice. The Mek’leth is based on a Tibetan throwing weapon. Curry created it partly due to Dorn recovering from shoulder injury when he joined DS9 so a one handed weapon was needed. Interestingly because the prop was made for Dorn’s large hands Kate Mulgree actually got the real world weapon it was based on in the teaser for ‘The Killing Game’ as it fit her hand, this real world weapon appears in ‘Kill Bill’.
I think this is somewhat misleading. If you're talking about what I think you are, there were Tibetan swords with broad, flared blades like the ram dao and whatever the name for the thing in the Killing Game is. Its fair to say the Bat'leth is artistically based on it - they certainly both have similar enough aesthetics. However the actual usable form of the bat'leth - with blades on both ends, held in the middle etc etc, is as far as I know, utterly unique with nothing like it existing in history. Thsoe who consider it to be an effective weapon (and it can be if used correctly, though maintain the training needed to use it could be better applied with a more ergonomic design) note that it is the only 'modern' melee weapon for precisely this reason. Personally I think that actually proves its not very good - because there are ALL sorts of historical weapons. Our ancestors were not stupid and were very inventive. Double tipped serrated tulwars are a thing, and yet they never once tried to use a design that looks anything like this in form. There is probably a reason for that.
@@Wirrn In the Killing game it's a throwing thing for in place of a Mek'leth but only Janeway uses it all others are using Bat'leths including Neelix. When looking at Klingon weapons it's worth remembering some are so vicious that they would be barred under the Geneva Convention.
@Darth Revan The bayonet was invented almost 400 years ago and is just a knife you stick on a gun to make it a short spear. The bowie knife, trench knife and ka bar knife are all - funnily enough - knives and thus approximately 2.5 million years old in basic concept. Give a ka-bar to a neanderthal and they'll go 'huh, cool' and use it. The Bat'leth is a completely new and distinct form. A somewhat stupid form that kinda lucked into actually being good at something if you don't use it the way they do on the show, but a distinct form nonetheless.
The bat'leth is a good design simply because it is like a sword and staff, but clearly alien in origin without feeling either unoriginal or unrealistic
JonBerry555 Except the aliens that design and handle these weapons are effectively identical to humans, and this is not a practical or affective design for human bio mechanics.
Thanks so much for making positive and insightful Trek videos. It seems like so much of my TH-cam is people spewing hate about my favorite fandoms (Trek, Dr Who, Star wars, etc) Full respect for highlighting what you love instead of spreading hate.
While I had always dismissed the Bat'leth as being....really stupid, my tai chi martial arts instructor got his hand on a foam one and instantly loved it. Basically the thing *does* work, when used a certain way. For starters as you say it isn't *remotely* a sword, and indistinctly defensive. Its can *do* a whole load of different offensive attacks, though its not as good at it as many other weapons - its sort of specialised into being a generalist in that regard. Where its good is in defensive, close in, circular binding and redirecting motions.(Actually making it a good match for Star Wars' Soresu). While you can use it for a powerful block, you're better off using it to redirect and lock the opposing weapon, and certain tai chi elements pair *really* well with it. Though when we were discussing it we did decide that the inner set of prongs weren't really much use, you'd be better off having one big curving blade so you can get a nice long slice with it. It is however a design that would require a hell of a lot more training to use truly effectively than...well most other weapons actually. The closest historical match I can think of are the one handed Chinese Crescent Moon knives which are...basically the same thing. And honestly I suspect two one handed mini bat'leths would work better in most circumstances than one giant oversized crescent moon knife. Making it two handed reduced range and makes it much more difficult to bind and attack at the same time. About the only advantage I can see is penetration power if you want to swing those spikes through armour, but you're better using the smaller one to actually aim for a gap.
yes test this! Honestly i do not see the lack of practicality at higher speeds and greater skill. Here is why. If needing a show of form in non lethal use due to actors needing to live, yes a sword is going to be most visually intuative. This i think helps the popularity of the sword because it works,but also visually makes sense it works. But A curved blade (cuts with less forward force) with multiple hand holds is useful and arguably superior despite some other experts claim that compariable reach of a weapon is most critical. And these hand holds unlike a staff is not something an opponant can easily grab at, in fact it would require training to attempt it and even then training by the owner of the blade can turn those attempts to control the hand holds into a big mistake. There by allowing the user to focus more training into strength and endurance techniques rather than like the sword spending most of your time knowing when not to strike.
It does seem like an exceptionally skilled practitioner of the bat’leth would be a terrifying opponent. But I’d really like to test it for myself to see what sorts of techniques it would excel at and which ones it would have trouble with.
And i have to say that due to the 4 curved peaks you are in a strategy like with most curved blades in knowing it is a novice mistake to think you need to get the target as hard as possible. When it is infact most of your strength going into the control and lending to subtle speed. I think a great way to train with this weapon is to start by visualizing the main part of the weapon is the 2 inner blades rather than trying to process flipping around the whole weapon. This should unlock better control sooner i think.
@@ECHenry There is a guy on you tube with some videos on it. He explains some of the ways to use it and it is indeed more of an active & reactive defence weapon with the ability to capture and counterstrike - I would say it's fair though that you do have to know what you are doing with it against someone with a pole arm. But there are some existing real world weapons (such as chinese half moon blades) and some Japanese light axes that share some of the principles of capture and counter combat - the Mekleth's in particular have several real life equivalents in multiple cultures.
I've seen what I believe to be a Chinese weapon of similar design and use. It has two sickle moon shaped blades in front and two spear shaped blades sticking out on each side just behind the blades in front. I have no idea if this design came out before or after the bat'leth.
B4 the bat'leth. It's was from hong kong whu shu films from the 50s I think. It's not historically accurate but based on similar weapons from like 1000 years ago.
yes, please do more on the practicality and real tests. I just purchased a working Sword of Kahless varient that is 32 inches wide and have been very impressed with its potential.
Would look cool if there'd be a one-handed version. Keep the overall length and curve, but move an inner spike from one end so that there's only one hand hole. Kinda like a scythe shaolin hooksword.
@@Gigas0101 I know what a falcata and what a falx are. I'm picturing something a bit different. A smooth half-moon curve with a hook sword-style hand guard.
And don't forget in the Klingon lure there was a complete martial arts form devoted around the batlas either open hand or with weapon, but it is supposed to be used close range and up into your face
The Bat'leth is probably an incredibly ineffective melee weapon. I'd bet that basically any trained human swordsman could defeat a Klingon with a bat'leth. A kopesh, a longsword, a broadsword, a saber, a yatagan, a basket-hilted sword, a katana, a shoto, hell even a halberd would probably be more efficient against a bat'leth. I would kinda like to see that battle, not in a scripted way, but how it would turn out in reality. Still, awesome video, as always.
Props for the reference to Skallagrim's work! 😀 That said, it should be clear to you that the Bat'leth was designed by an artist, for its artistic looks. Not for its practicality. This is effective neither against other bladed weapons, nor against modern particle weapons. The Bat'leth is a beautiful mural ornament though.
Dan Curry, the designer of the bat’leth, actually seemed really concerned with making a practical and believable weapon. He was a martial artist himself and drew inspiration from a variety of real-life weapons. Granted, he used very unusual weapons for inspiration - weapons that are no doubt unusual for good reason.
@@ECHenry Hmm, so he wanted a weapon that was the least practical for a human, and exotic enough to look alien, yet still "weapony" enough to look like a real thing. I guess it would have made sense if the guard's curvature was reversed, and the weapon much, much lighter than it is.
Shadiversity flipping hates it - but I can see how it's got some advantages in a small corridor over a straight sword or even an axe or pole arm. But the way Jadzia's failed was a bit of a worry. but it's still two small hand axes even when broken like that she could have got Worf in the kidneys with both tips if she wished him ill.
So my friends and I did a Star Trek role play where we took over a Klingon ship. My character faced a Klingon warrior wielding a bat'leth and managed to wrench the weapon from his hands. Our Game Master is letting my character keep the bat'leth. Good times...
You could do a collab with Lindybeige testing all sci-fi weapons is hand to hand combat ... You could test a multiple variants of lightsaber , the Bat'leth and the Halo Energy Sword
It seems to me that the traditional Worf style bat'leth is much more practical a weapon configuration than opposing/backwards curved one but the blade seems way to thin to be an effective weapon. Most single edged blades have a thin edge but becomes much thicker on the back side if the weapon but the bat'leth has the same thickness throughout. even double edged blades are thicker in the middle than the edges
Seriously, I don't get why so many people assume the bat'leth is limited in its reach. I made one for testing purposes, and holding it on one of the outer grips with both hands, I can easily match the striking distance of a longsword.
I can see where it would be great for blocking and disarming enemies, very much like a pole arm, but while it can both pierce and slash, wow would that be all kinds of awkward. I would imagine it would be suicide or a moderately trained warrior to pick one up in a real battle, but I can also see where an absolute expert could wield it with flare. I am reminded of fighting styles that employ distracting the enemy by using things such as deceptive movements or ribbons on the hilts of swords, and this cool looking weapon might rely on that priciple too. I can also see where the impracticality of it just lent the mythical weapon an er of mystery that caused it to endure. There is also the idea that Klingons like a challenge, and this impractical weapon would certainly be a challenge to learn. A person would learn other useful intangible skills like the ability to percervere or the ability to handle awkwardly weighted objects and use them as weapons. Most weapons though were developed from farm tools, and I just can't see this coming from any farm tools, but maybe a person who has experience farming or more knowledge of weapons will correct me. For all its goofiness, it is the coolest fantasy blade weapon I've seen, my favorite to date.
The bat'leth is a very strange weapon from my point of view. For one, due to the design and bulk it is a weapon that needs to remain close to the body to generate any speed with it. Going from a block to a counter attack often involves a complete shift of position and momentum, making it slow. In many ways the variations, both Kelvin and Discovery are superior weapons. With blades curving back instead of in the classic crescent it allows you to move quickly from a block to a slash where the wide grip gives you leverage to do extensive damage. An attack with the classic bat'leth all but requires you to strike with the end furthest from your opponent, telegraphing your move and opening you up to a quicker counterattack. So it is a high damage weapon and a high defense weapon but quite slow. The modified versions actually improve the speed of the weapon quite a bit making the Discovery bat'leth the most deadly of the bunch. It doesn't look like the weapon we all know and love, but it really is a superior design.
The note that the Bat'leth shouldn't be thought of as a sword is a good one. I have always considered it trash until actually holding one and seeing it in the hands of a tai chi instructor. I STILL think its badly designed, but I will grudgingly admit its not *completely* useless if you know how to use it. If you are extremely good at tai chi (and I assume other martial arts with similar focuses) it can be used in a way that is good for defending and...possibly good for offense. I found it risky for the wielder to use, and difficult to make a strike with any real strength behind it whilst also keeping control. Its shape works reasonbly well for grappling and locking moves, though against another bat'leth that tended to result in both weapons becoming disabled (partly because the replicas were bendy - a steel one may not have that problem) However the thing that makes a sword good is that its simple - any idiot can use one in a way that works. Spending years training is only necessary to use it *really well*. So I consider it an ergonomic failure if the training is necessary to use it *at all* effectively. Said Tai chi instructor believes its a perfectly good weapon, so we disagree there. :D We both agree though that the Discovery version is stupid. Though it is amusing that the immediate response of everyone who saw it in the trailers was "They made it even MORE likely to stab yourself" and the first time we see it the Klingon accidentally impales himself on it from someone bum rushing him. That is.....damning to say the least.
Now that you mention it... I wonder if the ONLY reason the Discovery team designed their bat’leth the way that they did is so that the Klingon could more easily be killed accidentally...
That is indeed an excellent video; and the logical conclusion (as it would naturally be to anyone with enough sense) is that the bat'leth is a stupid weapon.
I have a question, not shore if its your thing or not but In Star Trek, does a Red Shirt (or Gold Shirt in TNG) live longer aboard ship or on An Away Mission? Statistically speaking based on show / movie in canon deaths?
Ok I’ll bite let’s see a real batlethnin action. I’ll suggest it be made of 7075 t 651 aluminum. I think I’d line the cutting edges with a tempered knife edge that might be bolted on as an over lay. Alternately a titanium one would be pretty light. You still might need an over lay of hardened steel. Again replaceable. Now we can’t really rule out a hardened and tempered sword like material. With some judicious lightening in strategic spots it could be relatively light weight. I think it still might take a pretty strong person to wield it effectively with great speed. I think it might be a scary weapon to carry around. With a little creativity I think a quickly releasable rubber foot like s cane has it could make a very impressive walking cane. So how about a battle showdown. I used to be part of a medieval crusader group. We had simulated combat with wooden swords it often led to minor injuries but we had training clothes too. And football helmets. Probably no more dangerous than ice hockey. I played “goon squad” in hockey at 245/pounds I was pretty format able against the average hockey player at a wet 150 pounds. It wasn’t real tough to sweep the lighter guys feet out from under them and not get penalties. Rough housing by them was not a good idea as my partner defensive line man was bigger than I. Let’s see batleth combat in modern terms.
This video makes me wonder... We know a lots of the klingon culture. Mostly from TNG and DS9. And although many "elder" bat'leths were created, the truth is they were created by TNG-era creators. But I just wonder how the bat'leth might look created by the original TOS creators team back in 1960's.
While non-canon, the PC game Klingon Academy goes to great lenghts talking about the bat'leth and other similar Klingon weapons, you should get a hold of a copy for a followup video. :) According to the game, it was ancient weapon similar in use to the bat'leth which inspired the logo of the Klingon Empire gaming.trekcore.com/klingonacademy/images/manualus.jpg I personally reinterpreted that and created a shield out of the logo, which an ancestor of Khaless created. That shield later became the symbol for the House of Khaless (thus its appearance engraved in his sword) and later for the Empire www.deviantart.com/rekkert/art/The-Klingon-Way-426726158
The Discovery Bat'leth is frankly rather stupid. It really shouldn't have to be rule #1 of weapon design, but... *Rule #1* Never design a weapon that has sharp points directed at the wielder.
Definitely do a bat’leth video, try to get HEMA people in on it. Skallagrim already did a mek’leth video showing it is pretty good as a weapon. In this video you touch on why I think Klingons use the bat’leth. It’s not that it is a good weapon, it is that it is an honorable weapon. It makes fights tougher and it is basically a holy weapon. Trivially easy victories should offer little to no honor, it’s like a fight didn’t even happen, just as fighting an impossible battle is supposed to be pointless, thus honorless, because a fight basically didn’t happen. In either case if there is no real fight there is no victory. There is also a real life comparison in making fights harder for honor, counting coup. Native Americans would seek to touch opponents, probably in a deadly way, but the best act was to do so in a way which was harmless. Not killing your opponent leaves you more vulnerable so it shows off more than killing in the process. Klingons would believe that is mercy and dishonorable but could get behind making an equal fight into one which shows off their strength even more.
The extra points in the center seem impractical. A weapon like this, to me seems like it would be pushed into the opponent then drawn across the body in a slicing motion. Or swung from one of the handles on the far side. A uninterrupted inward curved blade would accomplish that better than something covered in superfluous spikes. There is a real world precedent for the latter approach with a similar weapon called a falx, and/or rhomphaia. But those are somewhere between a pole arm and a longsword more than a staff.
Didn't the creator of the Bat'leth base the design on Chinese hook swords? I seem to recall that from memory alpha. I think the bat'leth is cool but a lot of people seem to think it sucks based on how it stacks up vs different weapons. It's a bit like comparing a rapier to a katana and saying the former is superior to the latter due to reach, leaving aside the fact they never came into contact in any battlefield I'm aware of, and were designed for different purposes and in different cultures.
Yeah the Designer leaned into his knowledge of martial arts. Just a quote from Memory Alpha; "I'd been imagining a curved weapon partially influenced by Himalayan weapons like the kukri [the wickedly curved knife of the Gurkhas of Nepal, arguably the most renowned fighting knife in the world]. I was also thinking about the Chinese double ax, Chinese fighting crescents, and the Tai Chi sword. I combined elements of all those things in order to come up with an ergonomically sound weapon." (Star Trek: The Next Generation 365, p. 178) So for all the hemming and hawing form detractors, the weapon's origin seems sound enough.
I like the Bat'leth of Discovery, it's a nice addition to the existing one. It reminds me of old ornate swords, a perfect balance between practical and symbolic uses.
i wouldnt think that stamped aluminum would be so durable! and were there any bladed weapons in TOS?? i honestly dont remember! and i thought this was a pretty good breakdown(although not favorable) of the combat ability of the bat'leth: th-cam.com/video/VsElSDXPgSA/w-d-xo.html
Yeah, it does seem to further reduce the practicality of the weapon, not to mention the fact that it makes it considerably less identifiable to audiences.
No, it actually makes it more practical and usable as it shares traits in common with known sword/weapon designs, it’s the basic concept itself that is flawed though. It’s really not any sort of good weapon design. Though it is somewhat understandable from a cultural standpoint as it does force very close combat.
@@JanetStarChild I agree it is a stupid design. Designed by a so-called "martial arts expert" (in Tai Chi) to be a mean-looking evil curvy sharp pointy "samurai" weapon for Worf. But then again one could argue it's a perfect weapon for klingon psychology, klingon musculature, klingon metallurgy, etc. Why a strong and fierce warrior race couldn't come up with a hundred better weapon designs is beyond me.
its a stupid design and at 5kg, as Dax says in DS9, its far to heavy for its size, a 1800s saber or cavalry swords tops out at 1,8kg and go as low as 1,2kg, why would anybody use a far heavier weapon with less reach? Its possible to wear a shield and a sword and still have them both together under 5kg and it would give more protection and the weapon would have more reach. Why would a warrior race not use a lighter metal in the first place its not like the metal used is super strong as shown in the clip above 3:55 . The grips are super thin and hardly nice to hold unless added spacers are places under the leather thongs. The STD version where better as a slashing weapon its let down by that the blade is stupid fat, fatter the blade the harder to cut with
I wince when people say "your" when they mean "you are". It doesn't make any sense. If you can't figure out basic grammar then commenting on multi million dollar franchises is above your level.
I know you're prone to hot takes and I love you, but you're gonna have to come up with a damn good argument if you ever want to defend these things as an actual weapon and I look forward to facepalming at it some day if you ever prove so bold.
One thing regarding the shorter range of the weapon, is that it might be more applicable in a cramped area like the inside of a ship, while still being more powerful and have more leverage than a simple dagger. Imagine trying to swing a long sword or katana inside a cramped ship hallway and hitting the walls and ceiling while the double handed use of the bat'leth is like half-swording (something ppl used back in the day for more leverage and more precise penetration of armor weak points). Just a thought.
That’s a very valid point!
Katanas are at most 28 inches long. Most of them are just 26 inches long.
@@wlg2677 Yeah, even the longest of Katanas were still short by European standards
I made my daughter a bat-leith replica for her birthday. It is in a case with "To defend honor. Break glass" written in Klingon on the glass. She loves it.
A Bat'Leth testing video is a great idea! You can team up with Skallagrim to do it!
Skallagrim did a video on the Bat'leth and the mekleth a while ago I think and if I recall correctly he wasn't that impressed with the Bat'leth but he had some good things to say about the mekleth
He did a Mek'leth test only. He mentions the Bat'leth in the video and gave a brief preliminary review of the design, but said that he would hold judgement on it until he could get his hands on a functional replica and test it.
I totally agree, @skallagrim should a lot with his experience on blades and combats
th-cam.com/video/k3-iSn342CY/w-d-xo.html
softcombat bat'leth!
i suggest to go for at least one guy trained in combat with swords.
Love your render of the "less stylized" version of the DSC Bat'leth. Your "edits", like this and the X-Wing are a real highlight of your channel.
One rather interesting theory I've heard regarding the effectiveness and purpose of the Bat'leth: It's staff like nature and short reach make it a remarkably *powerful* weapon when engaging in tight quarters, like the halls of a fortress or castle, where longer reach weapons would be at a greater disadvantage. It's possible that during Khaless' time, and even through much of Klingon History, Klingon warfare was waged in protracted seiges and breakings of fortresses, necessitating the compact and 'tightly wound tornado of death' style of the weapon.
it could also suggest that klingons evolved for (and typically live in) tightly confined (and atleast moderately brutal) terrain, such as maze-like canyons, and jagged valleys, ravines, gullies, caves, and other types of very rugged, irregular, and unspacious terrains. Later on they would develop cities, garrisons, fortresses, and dug-out mines and tunnels, which only escalated and intensified this sort of terrain, and so the klingons merely continued to double-down on their already evolved tendencies for close-in squad-to-platoon based labyrinthine warfare.
Dan Curry Who designed the Bat’leth based it on historical Tibetan weapons. It’s a very good weapon against lots of types of swords irl, but takes skill to use. You can buy blunt versions for tai chi practice.
The Mek’leth is based on a Tibetan throwing weapon. Curry created it partly due to Dorn recovering from shoulder injury when he joined DS9 so a one handed weapon was needed. Interestingly because the prop was made for Dorn’s large hands Kate Mulgree actually got the real world weapon it was based on in the teaser for ‘The Killing Game’ as it fit her hand, this real world weapon appears in ‘Kill Bill’.
I think this is somewhat misleading. If you're talking about what I think you are, there were Tibetan swords with broad, flared blades like the ram dao and whatever the name for the thing in the Killing Game is. Its fair to say the Bat'leth is artistically based on it - they certainly both have similar enough aesthetics. However the actual usable form of the bat'leth - with blades on both ends, held in the middle etc etc, is as far as I know, utterly unique with nothing like it existing in history.
Thsoe who consider it to be an effective weapon (and it can be if used correctly, though maintain the training needed to use it could be better applied with a more ergonomic design) note that it is the only 'modern' melee weapon for precisely this reason.
Personally I think that actually proves its not very good - because there are ALL sorts of historical weapons. Our ancestors were not stupid and were very inventive. Double tipped serrated tulwars are a thing, and yet they never once tried to use a design that looks anything like this in form. There is probably a reason for that.
@@Wirrn In the Killing game it's a throwing thing for in place of a Mek'leth but only Janeway uses it all others are using Bat'leths including Neelix.
When looking at Klingon weapons it's worth remembering some are so vicious that they would be barred under the Geneva Convention.
@Darth Revan The bayonet was invented almost 400 years ago and is just a knife you stick on a gun to make it a short spear.
The bowie knife, trench knife and ka bar knife are all - funnily enough - knives and thus approximately 2.5 million years old in basic concept.
Give a ka-bar to a neanderthal and they'll go 'huh, cool' and use it.
The Bat'leth is a completely new and distinct form.
A somewhat stupid form that kinda lucked into actually being good at something if you don't use it the way they do on the show, but a distinct form nonetheless.
The bat'leth is a good design simply because it is like a sword and staff, but clearly alien in origin without feeling either unoriginal or unrealistic
JonBerry555 Except the aliens that design and handle these weapons are effectively identical to humans, and this is not a practical or affective design for human bio mechanics.
@@DrewLSsix If Klingons had a third arm in their chest like a Vortigaunt it'd make more sense.
Thanks so much for making positive and insightful Trek videos. It seems like so much of my TH-cam is people spewing hate about my favorite fandoms (Trek, Dr Who, Star wars, etc)
Full respect for highlighting what you love instead of spreading hate.
"Modern artistic interpretations."
Well played, sir. Well played.
Human with polearm to Klingon crying foul: "It's not my fault you guys never discovered the importance of reach!"
I would defiantly like to see more, a practical experiment would be great.
I think the Ironworks TV show guys made one. Pretty metal.
Can’t believe there is an EC Henry video I have not seen yet . . . 😮😅
While I had always dismissed the Bat'leth as being....really stupid, my tai chi martial arts instructor got his hand on a foam one and instantly loved it. Basically the thing *does* work, when used a certain way.
For starters as you say it isn't *remotely* a sword, and indistinctly defensive. Its can *do* a whole load of different offensive attacks, though its not as good at it as many other weapons - its sort of specialised into being a generalist in that regard. Where its good is in defensive, close in, circular binding and redirecting motions.(Actually making it a good match for Star Wars' Soresu). While you can use it for a powerful block, you're better off using it to redirect and lock the opposing weapon, and certain tai chi elements pair *really* well with it. Though when we were discussing it we did decide that the inner set of prongs weren't really much use, you'd be better off having one big curving blade so you can get a nice long slice with it.
It is however a design that would require a hell of a lot more training to use truly effectively than...well most other weapons actually. The closest historical match I can think of are the one handed Chinese Crescent Moon knives which are...basically the same thing. And honestly I suspect two one handed mini bat'leths would work better in most circumstances than one giant oversized crescent moon knife. Making it two handed reduced range and makes it much more difficult to bind and attack at the same time. About the only advantage I can see is penetration power if you want to swing those spikes through armour, but you're better using the smaller one to actually aim for a gap.
The Bat’leth is a weapon of honor. Only warriors of great honor can wield it correctly.
yes test this! Honestly i do not see the lack of practicality at higher speeds and greater skill. Here is why.
If needing a show of form in non lethal use due to actors needing to live, yes a sword is going to be most visually intuative. This i think helps the popularity of the sword because it works,but also visually makes sense it works.
But A curved blade (cuts with less forward force) with multiple hand holds is useful and arguably superior despite some other experts claim that compariable reach of a weapon is most critical.
And these hand holds unlike a staff is not something an opponant can easily grab at, in fact it would require training to attempt it and even then training by the owner of the blade can turn those attempts to control the hand holds into a big mistake. There by allowing the user to focus more training into strength and endurance techniques rather than like the sword spending most of your time knowing when not to strike.
It does seem like an exceptionally skilled practitioner of the bat’leth would be a terrifying opponent. But I’d really like to test it for myself to see what sorts of techniques it would excel at and which ones it would have trouble with.
And i have to say that due to the 4 curved peaks you are in a strategy like with most curved blades in knowing it is a novice mistake to think you need to get the target as hard as possible. When it is infact most of your strength going into the control and lending to subtle speed.
I think a great way to train with this weapon is to start by visualizing the main part of the weapon is the 2 inner blades rather than trying to process flipping around the whole weapon. This should unlock better control sooner i think.
@@ECHenry There is a guy on you tube with some videos on it. He explains some of the ways to use it and it is indeed more of an active & reactive defence weapon with the ability to capture and counterstrike - I would say it's fair though that you do have to know what you are doing with it against someone with a pole arm. But there are some existing real world weapons (such as chinese half moon blades) and some Japanese light axes that share some of the principles of capture and counter combat - the Mekleth's in particular have several real life equivalents in multiple cultures.
Loved the Skall clip :)
I've seen what I believe to be a Chinese weapon of similar design and use. It has two sickle moon shaped blades in front and two spear shaped blades sticking out on each side just behind the blades in front. I have no idea if this design came out before or after the bat'leth.
B4 the bat'leth. It's was from hong kong whu shu films from the 50s I think. It's not historically accurate but based on similar weapons from like 1000 years ago.
yes, please do more on the practicality and real tests. I just purchased a working Sword of Kahless varient that is 32 inches wide and have been very impressed with its potential.
Would look cool if there'd be a one-handed version. Keep the overall length and curve, but move an inner spike from one end so that there's only one hand hole.
Kinda like a scythe shaolin hooksword.
Google "Falcata", thank me later.
@@Gigas0101 I know what a falcata and what a falx are. I'm picturing something a bit different. A smooth half-moon curve with a hook sword-style hand guard.
great vid. swords are an amazing weapon and the bat'leth is one of the best bladed designs ever.
Do Jem'Hadar kar'takin.
A show should be made based on Kahless' life. It would be like GOT but with Klingons.
You haven't heard A Song of Ice and Fire, until you've heard it in the original Klingon.
And don't forget in the Klingon lure there was a complete martial arts form devoted around the batlas either open hand or with weapon, but it is supposed to be used close range and up into your face
Looks like something Batman would use. "What's that weapon? It's the BAT leth!"
Hey I love this idea! Keep it up!
The Bat'leth is probably an incredibly ineffective melee weapon. I'd bet that basically any trained human swordsman could defeat a Klingon with a bat'leth. A kopesh, a longsword, a broadsword, a saber, a yatagan, a basket-hilted sword, a katana, a shoto, hell even a halberd would probably be more efficient against a bat'leth. I would kinda like to see that battle, not in a scripted way, but how it would turn out in reality. Still, awesome video, as always.
Props for the reference to Skallagrim's work! 😀 That said, it should be clear to you that the Bat'leth was designed by an artist, for its artistic looks. Not for its practicality. This is effective neither against other bladed weapons, nor against modern particle weapons. The Bat'leth is a beautiful mural ornament though.
Dan Curry, the designer of the bat’leth, actually seemed really concerned with making a practical and believable weapon. He was a martial artist himself and drew inspiration from a variety of real-life weapons. Granted, he used very unusual weapons for inspiration - weapons that are no doubt unusual for good reason.
@@ECHenry Hmm, so he wanted a weapon that was the least practical for a human, and exotic enough to look alien, yet still "weapony" enough to look like a real thing. I guess it would have made sense if the guard's curvature was reversed, and the weapon much, much lighter than it is.
Yes I would love to see a real life test of a Bat’leth.
I would love to see a comparison done between a Klingon bat'leth and a Tusken Raider gaffi stick.
Shadiversity flipping hates it - but I can see how it's got some advantages in a small corridor over a straight sword or even an axe or pole arm.
But the way Jadzia's failed was a bit of a worry. but it's still two small hand axes even when broken like that she could have got Worf in the kidneys with both tips if she wished him ill.
So my friends and I did a Star Trek role play where we took over a Klingon ship. My character faced a Klingon warrior wielding a bat'leth and managed to wrench the weapon from his hands.
Our Game Master is letting my character keep the bat'leth. Good times...
And then you woke up...lol
Batleth videos would be neat.
Please make a video giving your estimated dimensions of that weapon.
2:35 I didn't know 4-LOM was klingon.
You could do a collab with Lindybeige testing all sci-fi weapons is hand to hand combat ... You could test a multiple variants of lightsaber , the Bat'leth and the Halo Energy Sword
3:04 3:15 but for parring earth swords it looks very practical but not as an offensive weapon.
It seems to me that the traditional Worf style bat'leth is much more practical a weapon configuration than opposing/backwards curved one but the blade seems way to thin to be an effective weapon. Most single edged blades have a thin edge but becomes much thicker on the back side if the weapon but the bat'leth has the same thickness throughout.
even double edged blades are thicker in the middle than the edges
Seriously, I don't get why so many people assume the bat'leth is limited in its reach. I made one for testing purposes, and holding it on one of the outer grips with both hands, I can easily match the striking distance of a longsword.
I can see where it would be great for blocking and disarming enemies, very much like a pole arm, but while it can both pierce and slash, wow would that be all kinds of awkward. I would imagine it would be suicide or a moderately trained warrior to pick one up in a real battle, but I can also see where an absolute expert could wield it with flare. I am reminded of fighting styles that employ distracting the enemy by using things such as deceptive movements or ribbons on the hilts of swords, and this cool looking weapon might rely on that priciple too. I can also see where the impracticality of it just lent the mythical weapon an er of mystery that caused it to endure. There is also the idea that Klingons like a challenge, and this impractical weapon would certainly be a challenge to learn. A person would learn other useful intangible skills like the ability to percervere or the ability to handle awkwardly weighted objects and use them as weapons.
Most weapons though were developed from farm tools, and I just can't see this coming from any farm tools, but maybe a person who has experience farming or more knowledge of weapons will correct me. For all its goofiness, it is the coolest fantasy blade weapon I've seen, my favorite to date.
I believe it was intended to have been a scythe, but don’t quote me on that.
@@jdcrosier2682 I can see it, might have developed from a double bladed scythe.
The bat'leth is a very strange weapon from my point of view. For one, due to the design and bulk it is a weapon that needs to remain close to the body to generate any speed with it. Going from a block to a counter attack often involves a complete shift of position and momentum, making it slow. In many ways the variations, both Kelvin and Discovery are superior weapons. With blades curving back instead of in the classic crescent it allows you to move quickly from a block to a slash where the wide grip gives you leverage to do extensive damage. An attack with the classic bat'leth all but requires you to strike with the end furthest from your opponent, telegraphing your move and opening you up to a quicker counterattack. So it is a high damage weapon and a high defense weapon but quite slow. The modified versions actually improve the speed of the weapon quite a bit making the Discovery bat'leth the most deadly of the bunch. It doesn't look like the weapon we all know and love, but it really is a superior design.
I saw Shadiversity’s video on the bat’leth, so I’m hoping this proposed second video can address some of the points made by Shadiversity.
The note that the Bat'leth shouldn't be thought of as a sword is a good one. I have always considered it trash until actually holding one and seeing it in the hands of a tai chi instructor. I STILL think its badly designed, but I will grudgingly admit its not *completely* useless if you know how to use it. If you are extremely good at tai chi (and I assume other martial arts with similar focuses) it can be used in a way that is good for defending and...possibly good for offense.
I found it risky for the wielder to use, and difficult to make a strike with any real strength behind it whilst also keeping control. Its shape works reasonbly well for grappling and locking moves, though against another bat'leth that tended to result in both weapons becoming disabled (partly because the replicas were bendy - a steel one may not have that problem)
However the thing that makes a sword good is that its simple - any idiot can use one in a way that works. Spending years training is only necessary to use it *really well*. So I consider it an ergonomic failure if the training is necessary to use it *at all* effectively.
Said Tai chi instructor believes its a perfectly good weapon, so we disagree there. :D We both agree though that the Discovery version is stupid. Though it is amusing that the immediate response of everyone who saw it in the trailers was "They made it even MORE likely to stab yourself" and the first time we see it the Klingon accidentally impales himself on it from someone bum rushing him.
That is.....damning to say the least.
Now that you mention it... I wonder if the ONLY reason the Discovery team designed their bat’leth the way that they did is so that the Klingon could more easily be killed accidentally...
@@ECHenry I....had never even considered that. I want to say they wouldn't do that, but I don't know if I can :D
I want to know how practical this weapon would be
We need all able blacksmiths to start forging items for an scientific experiment.
I like your explanation to this terrible design for a weapon. It highlight the type of fighting culture the Klingons love. Close.
I recommend Shadiversity, who has covered the Batlh'etlh in detail from a practical point.
That is indeed an excellent video; and the logical conclusion (as it would naturally be to anyone with enough sense) is that the bat'leth is a stupid weapon.
I have a question, not shore if its your thing or not but In Star Trek, does a Red Shirt (or Gold Shirt in TNG) live longer aboard ship or on An Away Mission? Statistically speaking based on show / movie in canon deaths?
What about the new bat'leth which they simply turned them backwards?
Ok I’ll bite let’s see a real batlethnin action. I’ll suggest it be made of 7075 t 651 aluminum. I think I’d line the cutting edges with a tempered knife edge that might be bolted on as an over lay. Alternately a titanium one would be pretty light. You still might need an over lay of hardened steel. Again replaceable. Now we can’t really rule out a hardened and tempered sword like material. With some judicious lightening in strategic spots it could be relatively light weight. I think it still might take a pretty strong person to wield it effectively with great speed. I think it might be a scary weapon to carry around. With a little creativity I think a quickly releasable rubber foot like s cane has it could make a very impressive walking cane.
So how about a battle showdown. I used to be part of a medieval crusader group. We had simulated combat with wooden swords it often led to minor injuries but we had training clothes too. And football helmets. Probably no more dangerous than ice hockey. I played “goon squad” in hockey at 245/pounds I was pretty format able against the average hockey player at a wet 150 pounds. It wasn’t real tough to sweep the lighter guys feet out from under them and not get penalties. Rough housing by them was not a good idea as my partner defensive line man was bigger than I. Let’s see batleth combat in modern terms.
gay comment
This video makes me wonder... We know a lots of the klingon culture. Mostly from TNG and DS9. And although many "elder" bat'leths were created, the truth is they were created by TNG-era creators.
But I just wonder how the bat'leth might look created by the original TOS creators team back in 1960's.
While non-canon, the PC game Klingon Academy goes to great lenghts talking about the bat'leth and other similar Klingon weapons, you should get a hold of a copy for a followup video. :)
According to the game, it was ancient weapon similar in use to the bat'leth which inspired the logo of the Klingon Empire gaming.trekcore.com/klingonacademy/images/manualus.jpg
I personally reinterpreted that and created a shield out of the logo, which an ancestor of Khaless created. That shield later became the symbol for the House of Khaless (thus its appearance engraved in his sword) and later for the Empire www.deviantart.com/rekkert/art/The-Klingon-Way-426726158
The Discovery Bat'leth is frankly rather stupid. It really shouldn't have to be rule #1 of weapon design, but...
*Rule #1* Never design a weapon that has sharp points directed at the wielder.
Definitely do a bat’leth video, try to get HEMA people in on it. Skallagrim already did a mek’leth video showing it is pretty good as a weapon.
In this video you touch on why I think Klingons use the bat’leth. It’s not that it is a good weapon, it is that it is an honorable weapon. It makes fights tougher and it is basically a holy weapon. Trivially easy victories should offer little to no honor, it’s like a fight didn’t even happen, just as fighting an impossible battle is supposed to be pointless, thus honorless, because a fight basically didn’t happen. In either case if there is no real fight there is no victory. There is also a real life comparison in making fights harder for honor, counting coup.
Native Americans would seek to touch opponents, probably in a deadly way, but the best act was to do so in a way which was harmless. Not killing your opponent leaves you more vulnerable so it shows off more than killing in the process. Klingons would believe that is mercy and dishonorable but could get behind making an equal fight into one which shows off their strength even more.
The extra points in the center seem impractical. A weapon like this, to me seems like it would be pushed into the opponent then drawn across the body in a slicing motion. Or swung from one of the handles on the far side. A uninterrupted inward curved blade would accomplish that better than something covered in superfluous spikes. There is a real world precedent for the latter approach with a similar weapon called a falx, and/or rhomphaia. But those are somewhere between a pole arm and a longsword more than a staff.
Neat!
Didn't the creator of the Bat'leth base the design on Chinese hook swords? I seem to recall that from memory alpha.
I think the bat'leth is cool but a lot of people seem to think it sucks based on how it stacks up vs different weapons. It's a bit like comparing a rapier to a katana and saying the former is superior to the latter due to reach, leaving aside the fact they never came into contact in any battlefield I'm aware of, and were designed for different purposes and in different cultures.
Yeah the Designer leaned into his knowledge of martial arts. Just a quote from Memory Alpha; "I'd been imagining a curved weapon partially influenced by Himalayan weapons like the kukri [the wickedly curved knife of the Gurkhas of Nepal, arguably the most renowned fighting knife in the world]. I was also thinking about the Chinese double ax, Chinese fighting crescents, and the Tai Chi sword. I combined elements of all those things in order to come up with an ergonomically sound weapon." (Star Trek: The Next Generation 365, p. 178)
So for all the hemming and hawing form detractors, the weapon's origin seems sound enough.
I would love to see some real-life Bat'leth fighting techniques. Shadiversity has a video, but it's more on the flaws of the Bat'leth
I'd love to see some pro fighters put a Bat'leth to use.
Great ide, test bat'let ageinst real historical weapons
Wanna battle with my Phoenix?
I like the Bat'leth of Discovery, it's a nice addition to the existing one. It reminds me of old ornate swords, a perfect balance between practical and symbolic uses.
Hello there.
General Kenobi
It's not a sword though.
Also, why is kahless the only figure in in Klingon mythology?
hes the only famous one that the klingons have openly shared on screen besides their devil
Don't forget Feklhr
He's far from the only figure in Klingon myth, he's just the most important to modern Klingon culture.
Kahless is to Klingons what Surak is to Vulcans.
@@BigFatCock0 yeah...
That helps
i wouldnt think that stamped aluminum would be so durable! and were there any bladed weapons in TOS?? i honestly dont remember!
and i thought this was a pretty good breakdown(although not favorable) of the combat ability of the bat'leth:
th-cam.com/video/VsElSDXPgSA/w-d-xo.html
based on how it looks, the Bat'leth may have started as a agricultural tool.
Remember p'takh, only you can stop the spread of ST:D!
the std version is stupid. it has blades pointed inwards
Yeah, it does seem to further reduce the practicality of the weapon, not to mention the fact that it makes it considerably less identifiable to audiences.
The backward curve would make for a longer cutting edge though, similar to a Scimitar or a Kilij
@@Dante_Stormpaw But the rest of the design precludes it from being used in that fashion.
No, it actually makes it more practical and usable as it shares traits in common with known sword/weapon designs, it’s the basic concept itself that is flawed though. It’s really not any sort of good weapon design. Though it is somewhat understandable from a cultural standpoint as it does force very close combat.
@@DrewLSsix here's a video showing why it's stupid th-cam.com/video/Sdcqsjn2HDI/w-d-xo.html
shame its literally the most impractical weapon ever and "irl" just doesn't work lol
This hasn't aged well. Its not as bad as you seem to think.
The Bat'leth just seems kinda dumb. A normal sword would be much, much easier to use.
The bat'leth falls short compared to virtually every historical weapon; It's a stupid design.
@@JanetStarChild I agree it is a stupid design. Designed by a so-called "martial arts expert" (in Tai Chi) to be a mean-looking evil curvy sharp pointy "samurai" weapon for Worf.
But then again one could argue it's a perfect weapon for klingon psychology, klingon musculature, klingon metallurgy, etc. Why a strong and fierce warrior race couldn't come up with a hundred better weapon designs is beyond me.
its a stupid design and at 5kg, as Dax says in DS9, its far to heavy for its size, a 1800s saber or cavalry swords tops out at 1,8kg and go as low as 1,2kg, why would anybody use a far heavier weapon with less reach? Its possible to wear a shield and a sword and still have them both together under 5kg and it would give more protection and the weapon would have more reach. Why would a warrior race not use a lighter metal in the first place its not like the metal used is super strong as shown in the clip above 3:55 . The grips are super thin and hardly nice to hold unless added spacers are places under the leather thongs. The STD version where better as a slashing weapon its let down by that the blade is stupid fat, fatter the blade the harder to cut with
And yet in the orvinal series, the Klingons use swords.
I only recall swords used by Klingons in "Day of the Dove" and that had special circumstances with that one. Were there any others?
"unique"
It’s cool, but is horribly designed. A weapon should adapt and further the ability of the combatant, no impede and force the user to adapt to it.
The Sword of Kahless is the coolest version the Bat’leth.
Oh god, your using “Discovery” images.
🤮🤮🤮🤮
I know, I wince anytime he cuts to anything from Discovery. >__>
@@planescaped thank you! A true trek of culture here, I see.
I wince when people say "your" when they mean "you are". It doesn't make any sense. If you can't figure out basic grammar then commenting on multi million dollar franchises is above your level.
I know you're prone to hot takes and I love you, but you're gonna have to come up with a damn good argument if you ever want to defend these things as an actual weapon and I look forward to facepalming at it some day if you ever prove so bold.
So basically it’s a made up for star trek smh
Oh god I forgot how bad the STD art style is. CHRIST that is the most generic shit I have ever seen.
Yes I would love to see a real life test of a Bat’leth.