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I would still watch yours too. There is an episode in Deep Space Nine where Lt. Dax makes a hologram Batleth and give very percise measurements. Unfortunately I don't know the episode off hand. Here it is. th-cam.com/video/tZYXtzuTkvE/w-d-xo.html
To be fair you made a review years ago in the mohawk days of your channel of a different Klingon weapon , the Mek'leth , which was kind of like a kukri with a sharpend knuckle guard on it. It's been a long time since I watched it but I think you did shit on the bat'leth, but you kinda dug the Mek'leth.
We actually see a bat'leth variant in Worf's quarters with a significantly lengthened central grip. That might be onscreen evidence for a hypothetical longer "battlefield" version of the bat'leth.
Or a bat'leth tailored for fighting mounted opponents perhaps. It hasn't got any guard on the grip, which basically turns it into the haft of a polearm.
@@williamgallagher4959 don't remember the number but you get a good look at Worf's quarters in the episode where perform the Right of Assention and Duras is killed. It is in season 3 I believe. On a slightly different topic in Way of the Warrior Dad has the Holosuite produce a Bat'leth if I recall correctly she gives length and weight.. Worf mentions it was a "warrior's configuration"
Star Trek nerd here. In Next Generation and DS9 episodes we see Worf and other Klingons (and the occasional human) using the bat'leth as a draw/push cutter, chopper *and* stabber, plus hooking opponent's arms and legs. Binding with the curved front edge is extremely important. To my mind the typical bat'leth fight proceeds somewhat like a Sumo bout. There's an initial rush and clash often resulting in a bind, then some fencing roughly equivalent to grappling for a leverage advantage, then one combatant is taken off their feet. A typical finishing strike is a downward two-handed chop/stab taking advantage of the angle of the pointy ends; notice that the opposite end curves *away* from the user in that move, unlike what's seen in most fantasy weapons. As to the weapon's length, in lore it should be equal to your height when you take a knee (so that if one leg is disabled you can still fight effectively). I'm six feet tall so for me, *with my build*, that works out to almost exactly 4' 6" rather than he "official" five foot length so perhaps the average ancient Klingon was a bit taller than the average modern human or were longer in the torso. Finally, there are fan groups who practice bat'leth fighting developing various fight styles, and holding competitions at conventions, based on what's seen on screen. Pseudo-Historical Klingon Martial Arts, one might say. (A Klingon could probably pronounce PhKMA but I can't.)
The binding wouldn't actually work. It doesn't really work with swords either, outside of movies. However, the way it doesn't work makes it a better weapon. The bind always happens after somebody has blocked to give the fighters a chance to stare and growl at each other. If you look at the position the bat'leth usually has at the point of the bind, then you would see that in that situation the defender can easily attack the left or right of his opponent. A sword would give only one attack direction.
Also didnt Dax in DS9 specify exactly to the computer how she wanted hers in lenght and weight before she sparred with a klingon warrior she had known for many years in her former body
@@ronhan9 I think you're right. My headcanon is that the bat'leths we see are mass produced standardized models stocked in all Klingon ships' armories and issued for their versions of away missions, and that each House may have its private versions (explaining the slight differences we see). Officers at or above Captain rank might be expected to carry their own custom models but your average warrior has to use the "one-size-fits-none" standard, but probably also trains with them.
@@Matt_Alaric I've tried to post responses twice but they go away for some reason (either that or I can't see them for some reason). I saw it in a non-canon book but can't remember author or title. Do a search for "how long should a bat'leth be" or "sizing a bat'leth". There are fan sites giving the same advice but also not citing a source (dammit).
Quite a bit is known about Klingon biology. The episode where Worf is paralyzed told us they have a lot of biological redundancy. Twice as many ribs and a fortified spinal cord for instance. So not only do they wear armor literally everywhere, their skeletal structure is almost a subcutaneous armor as well
Taking that into account, it always seemed to me, and seemed that the show was trying to depict, that the bat'leth was intended as sort of an armed grappling weapon. Kind of like a poleax as mentioned in the video. You would use it to try to force the opponent off balance in melee and then use one of the two longer points to stab into the opponent's ribs.
@@GuyNamedSean If you exclude ceremonial and traditional styles - stuff like competitive fencing and kendo - sword fights always include grappling. Sometimes a lot, sometimes only in decisive moves. Bulky heavy multi-pointed blades tend to make grapples more clumsy, risky, and difficult for both the wielder and the opponent.
Speaking on biology, you can also come down to things like metabolism and oxygen exchange. If another species tires faster, or slower, or has more explosive metabolism, that can also change how weapons are designed/ used.
Gorillas share 96% of our DNA and almost all the same bones and even tendon and muscle connections. However in spite of all these similarities they are incapable of throwing overhand, hand lift around 25 times their body mass, vs a human who typically can’t lift twice their weight and have no endurance in comparison to a reasonably athletic human who can run for hours vs a few minutes for a gorilla.
One of the things we do know about klingon biology is lots of redundancy in organs, and they have a lattice work rib structure, meaning the heavy tines on the bat'leth make a degree of sense trying to punch through their ribs to get to their organs.
It was great to see you apply historical analysis and thought processes to a fictional weapon. Hmm, now I'm wondering if I can source one to try from horseback.
Can you Test it while Wearing armor. Both on Horse back and on foot. You could also test it's Usefulness against Both Shields and armor. Lastly. Is it more Effective in Tight spaces Like in a Castle, ship or Battle line formation. or Is it better when you have more space like open field. Would it be more like a sword like a every day self defense weapon. or more for duals, Arenas, tournaments or other such event based battles. Edit: Also the Bat'Leth Maybe use-able while fighting in or under water. It maybe good as an amphibious assault weapon. Which would be nice to test as well.
I hadn't considered the length difference inherent between a naval infantry weapon, intended for combat in close confines, and a infantryman's weapon intended for the open field. This would make Worf's personal weapon a sailor's cutlass version of the bat'leth ... and suddenly the triple-grip makes sense. It needs to be able to absorb the attack of the heavier landsman's weapon, and it needs to be lighter, without sacrificing strength. It's not only shorter, handier in close confines, it's also structuraly lighter, with narrower ribs and grip-points ... so it gets more ribs, and a somewhat skeletonised appearance in comparison to, say, the Sword of Kah'less. Damn ... Dan Curry was The Man! I think the main stumbling block is how it's always referred to as the "Klingon Battle Sword", based on it's unitary construction and full-length cutting edge ... Really, it combines the features and function of a defensive short polearm, one designed to break armour, and a battle-AXE, designed to maximize the destructive power of a single massive strike. All in a package designed for (relatively) easy carrying. That it can still be gripped and manipulated from any point in its frame, due to the handgrip being a separate structure behind the cutting edge, also makes switching between defensive and offensive action surprisingly swift, especially given the mass of the thing.
Why would it get to be light as a ship, something you can mount or a wall and grab instead of having to lugg around and also when wrapping into rooms is a thing? Tons of cutlasses Matt showed in several video are about the same weight as long saber or heavier and made sturdier.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 Heavy weapons can be harder to use for extended periods, which could matter a lot. Italian Cavalry in the 19th century did training with a lighter sword than their fighting sword, because they had entire days of training and didn't want fencing practice to be too tiring.
I mostly find it odd that people do refer to it as the "Klingon Battle Sword" when they have a seperate battle sword design the Mek'leth th-cam.com/video/H0dLUtMViUI/w-d-xo.html
Mostly, @@PJDAltamirus0425 , at least in my mind, because it carried through pre-space travel into actual shipboard carry and use, and the Klingon's slightly odd fetish for light, agile corvettes instead of heavier cruisers. Also, it was obviously a weapon they were not willing to abandon, so modifications were made to keep it at least somewhat practical for regular carry. No one, no matter how obsessive, will be entirely happy about carrying the equivalent of a bearded war axe AND spiked shield as personal sidearms, so ... stripping some mass, shortening it to make it both a bit handier and lighter for daily carry, and reinforcing the structure so it can still carry the brunt of action just make sense. Also, cutlasses were very much "daily use" sidearms, and expected to do a lot of heavy work lighter infantry and cavalry sabers would not be subjected to, and being too LIGHT for a task isn't one of the bat'leth's faults.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 Advanced materials technology. Lighter, more durable, and harder materials are possible in the Trek age. Ergo, a weapon with the lightness of aluminum, strength of heavy steel, and edge retention of high carbon steel would be a good thing. Add in that their world (I believe) has higher gravity, a lighter weapon would be faster in their hands
Matt, you really need to look into whether or not anybody makes synthetic practice bat'leths so that you can take it to your class and see how well they actually work. Then you should have Tod make a proper one from steel and sharpened and see how well it cuts.
@@Tarnfalk One-handed or Two-handed? I wonder if someone one day will mod the game "Hellish Quart" with a Klingon using a Bat'leth? That would be fun to watch.
I never considered this weapon in the context of close quarters armored combat. Once you mentioned armored combat, I could suddenly see its practical usage.
i use a bat'leth in a VRchat game where you can draw your own weapon and armor. A lot of people wonder how i could beat them, i just block their weapon with the bat'leth while stabing them between their armor in the same move
I've played with a Bat'leth before, and it's actually pretty easy to thrust with BECAUSE the outward blades are curved. When you try to thrust one-handed with it, your natural grip will have to be slightly angled, which results in the curved edge of the outward blade actually pointing straight forward.
Not watched it in decades, but from what I remember from TNG, the Bat'Leth was originally mostly a cultural artefact for Worf, which he embraced and tried to learn because he was an orphan brought up by humans who wanted to reconnect with his Klingon heritage. He used it to reenact historical and mythological Klingon battles and duels on the Enterprise holodeck. Originally it didn't really matter if it was a practical weapon- it was a symbol of his identity that mattered to Worf's character. But the fandom decided it was really cool so the writers created loads of extra lore for it and increasingly incorporated it into battle scenes. Which is basically just being a good writer who responds to audience feedback.
Yep, the first time we see one, Worf uses it in combat against Duras, who is wielding a pretty traditional-looking sword. Which brings up an important aspect of consideration for the bat'leth as a weapon - its not only used against other bat'leths. It needs to be considered assuming that some Klingons will counter it with different weapons.
The biggest change I might make is dulling the central edge in front of the hands. If you're fighting another bat'leth user, odds are that area is going to smack into the enemy blade a lot. Given the design, it's really hard to not hit edge on edge, and edge on edge is likely to damage that portion quickly. Also, it's the least likely area to actually cut with. You have to get past the big vertical line of defense (the other guy's bat'leth), then strike in, then slide sideways. That's really hard. Most of the killing will happen with the pointy bits. So the central area should basically be a giant ricasso. Keep it tough and blunt to reduce damage and use that for defense, then swing the sharp and pointy bits around over/under the enemy's weapon out of a bind to stab him. And for that, the blades curving in as they do works better, as you will mostly be striking with a swing, not a linear stab. So basically, it's an anti-armor *stabbing* weapon (those look like pretty robust points), with an absolutely massive ricasso to protect your hands. You basically block with the ricasso and repost in a swing in a single move. Though I totally agree that a single-hole grip would be better, especially if doing larger swings. I do have some concerns about it being forward heavy, but that can probably be addressed mainly by how you hold it and swing it. If you hold it diagonally, close to you, it's probably not a big deal. And if you are mostly swinging in an arc, then that forward weight helps give it more penetrative power. Now please do the Mek'leth! :-)
Re the Mek'leth - actually looks quite practical. It's pretty much a kukri or small forward-curved falchion with a knuckle bow, right? Not half as daft as it first appears.
From a lot of experience, the first thing to do is "fatten" the grips so that they are more comfortable when striking. The way they are usually made, with leather wrapped around steel, makes it very hard to get your body weight behind a strike.
Have you seen the fight between Qui Gon and Maul? Yes, Maul stabs him with the blade, yet before that, he knocks him with the handle. If that handle had been sharpened, Qui Gon not only would have been startled, but pretty heavily wounded already at the chin. Yes, it's probably not easy to get passed the opponents Bat'Leth, or whatever other weapon he might use, but at the moment you would do it, you might slice his throat already. Maybe, if the material really isn't that great in retaining sharpness (I'd say, it would be a Klingon material ;) nevertheless: I would still go sharpened edge every day of the week.
I remember when I first saw the battleth I thought, "Looks cool, not practical." Then when they showed Worf using it, it was clear some actual thought went into it.
I use a bat'leth occassional in LARP and in sparring. I am not usually allowed to use it very often because it is too easy to beat my opponents and is considered unfair and unsporting.
@@spacecadet35 It's oh so much easier to try to limit what others can do than it is to improve themselves. I think, instead of, basically handicapping you, they should work to get better, maybe even learn to use one themselves and become overall better LARPers.
@@spacecadet35 Interesting. How do you deal with side blows to the blade messing the edge alignment and with the reduced leverage in a bind? In my limited experience I've found hooking, long range, and quick leveraging far superior to binds and hands-apart stances. That said, I can see how people would want to restrict it the same way they usually restrict spears and greatswords. If you're not larping in armour, things can go south pretty fast.
Anyone trained in rifle and bayonet can see this could be used with effect, left parry,right parry, lunge,butt stroke,the cross check and slash. I would have no problem using in close contact.
You mention good improvements. I definitely think unobstructed hand movement is key, but eliminating all the segments decreases structural integrity. Compromise with two big grip-holes separated by a middle strut. Plus, this weapon seems to want to turn in the hands, so the grip needs to be well-shaped and enough mass needs to be kept in the handle to offset that tendency. Totally agree on the points needed for thrusting, but I think that can be achieved by adding spikes without altering the weapon's continuous curve. Making me smile as always, Matt! :)
16:46 I actually like where the points are, imagine swinging it with one hand. Much like the Falx sword, that would allow you to stab off of a swing; which makes for a very powerful penetrative attack
For fighting in confined spaces (hallways, spaceships, indoors) I think a bat'leth with multiple grip points, striking points and hand protection would be super useful. the striking points being ahead of the grip would also make generating heavy strikes without tons of room for wind ups or maneuvering a lot easier.
On Deep Space 9. Jadzia Dax gives us measurements for a Batleth in "warriors configuration" Kor's words. It is as follows "A "warrior's configuration" for a bat'leth was "tip to tip 116 centimeters, weight five point three kilos with an exterior handgripping diameter of five centimeters "
Great video! Good analysis. In the various series they make a point of the "overdesign" of Klingon physiology, specifically things like 23 ribs, an eight chambered heart, and multiple internal organs. The bony protuberances on their forwards are shown to extend down their backs and other parts of their bodies are shown to have some level of perhaps vestigial internal armoring. The episode in which Worf devolved into some form of ancient Klingon showed him with a full exoskeleton. So in this sense the comments about the bat'eth being designed for armor making even more sense. The Klingon is always armored. I think this is why other Klingon weapons like the d'k tahg and kut'luch are so vicious looking is because you have to do really terrible damage to hope to kill a Klingon.
For Improving the design, I would also add side scales. Those grips are basically leather wrapped sheet metal. For human hands, I would round that out with wood, bone, or whatever, for a more secure, and comfortable grip. (In addition to what Matt said, straight side spikes, and more grip options in general.)
For a human user, that would be quite sensible. For Klingons, however, that would likely be considered a cultural affront. They are no strangers to ergonomics, as their disruptors and other types of meelee weapons show, but the bat'leth is sort of a ritualistic weapon heavily tied to Klingon mythology. A lot of Klingon rituals require the endurance of pain and discomfort, so I guess that's why the bat'leth never got updated in the way other weapons have.
Very glad to see you bringing up Dan Curry; I remember reading about his intentions and methodology in coming up with the Bat'leth and creating an exotic but practical weapon, and I always wondered about that whenever I saw people criticising the weapon.
Brilliant work Matt. This is excellent. Especially for acknowledging the designers' history and combining it with the massive and excellent array of pictures and explanations
They have limited size (for a two-handed weapon), are relatively flat, so can be stowed away in tight compartments in armories. Sounds like a ship weapon, alright!
I think it's also worth considering Klingon cultre. They have a strong warrior tradition based culture and strong sense of honor and sport. They may have intentionally designed the Bat'leth to be somewhat impractical and hard to use so that weilding it would be more of a sport in battle. The fight would be harder and take longer to finish. Using it effectively in battle would be a personal challenge.
I have also long held that the bat'leth may also have had quite the ceremonial place in Klingon culture and perhaps being primarily a training tool as well, which could explain much too. cheers!
I'd love to see you take look at the Mek'leth, I've loved it since I first saw it in DS9 ☺️ I'd still love to have a Bat'leth though, even if a 5 foot blade would be as big as me x
I felt that you gave a very fair and well conceived analysis of the Bat'leth. As a life log Trek fan and history geek I really enjoyed your video. You didn't poke fun and your comments were constructive. Thank you, Very entertaining!
11:30 well the theory is that the in universe reason for the design is twofold. 1 Klingons Don't use shields because they find it dishonorable and bat'leth was suposed to offer some defensive capabilites. and the second was to temper the Klingon natural battle frenzy becasue it required a lot of practice to use effficiently and there is also a history it started as some kind of a farming tool (which I cna see since it always kidna reminded me to antlers (and antlers were some of the earliest human tool matherial) )
If anyone could make highly educated points about the possible contexts of the Bat'leth it would be you, Matt 🤯 Thanks again for the entertaining and informative take on a subject i didn't expect to look into. Oh, also the blade design makes sense considering advanced (i presume) Klingon metallurgy.
I read a few great internet treatises on the Bat'Leth. One thing that strikes me as interesting, is the lore behind its invention. An unskilled warrior poet/bard created the weapon under the nose of a powerful and brutal overlord. He took passionate youths, farmers, craftsmen, and trained them as a small guerrilla army to battle the much larger, more professional oppressors armies. The culture had swords, flails, spears, (We see some "historical" weapons through the show), but these were used without shields (as shields were considered cowardly, and when they were used, were discarded immediately when battle began so as to effect more power in their strikes). And "professional warriors" would rely on excessive rage to carry them through enemies with sheer brutality and force. So, by designing a slower, more defensive weapon, one that can catch powerful two handed blows and redirect them, while still allowing a reverse counter strike, would be valuable. The amateurs were forced to learn control, to redirect the much more ferocious warriors strikes and use that power against them as they over-committed and opened themselves to the back end of the weapon which could thrust upwards into ribs/arm pits. The weapon also allowed them to work as units on the battlefield, as unlike a flail or a massive two handed sword, you could stay close and attack the same opponent together, where the oppressors armies would be a mob of individual warriors attacking without finesse or defence with the biggest weapon at hand. The Bat'Leth is basically a shield, axe, and sword all rolled into one unit, a unit strong enough to absorb blows, fast enough to counter-strike, but powerful enough to crack armour and tough Klingon hides. This is why the creator taught joy, not rage like the oppressor had. Taught them to slow and to think in battle, to work in formation, to use terrain and to learn from other battles through song, and to share tactics, not hold them as family secrets. He tempered them in a way they would accept and so won out against a much larger (less organized) force that used brutality and numbers above all else to win. He out thought his opponents, out finessed them, and outlasted them until their own rage made them vulnerable and weak.
Love it! Even if there are "superior" alternatives, sometimes a weapon with strong traditions behind it will be more popular. Klingon cultures values tradition strongly, and this story would elevate the Bat'Leth higher than it's practical purpose might indicate.
@@richlee3777 I think when you look at it as a purposefully challenging weapon to wield (thus increasing the honour of the few who wield it masterfully, as only the calm and thoughtful can master it), and a weapon built for a purpose long since abandoned, it changes the context and reveals a new purpose born from the tradition.
I appreciate the daily upload this last week of 2021, when most of other TH-camrs are taking a break, you are providing content more frequently, along with a number of collaborations with other channels such as IGN and Tod's. Great holiday entertainment, thanks!
As someone who's trained (not extensively) in Okinawan staff technique I've generally thought of the bat'leth in those terms. It's clearly not a sword but as a short range polearm it makes a certain amount of sense. I have a replica of Worfs mek'leth in my collection which I need to make a sparing version of at some point. I think Michael Dorn has much larger hands than I do.
A double-ended Falx perhaps? Were the Klingons Dacian? Great video Matt, possibly one of the longest Star Trek related videos I've ever sat through with any real interest. BTW, agree with the hand-hold comments, that's the first thing I thought of once seeing the weapon.
@@axelhopfinger533 The same people who made Voyager made Enterprise bud. And if this were over 20 years ago people would be saying the same thing about DS9 and Voyager. And if it were over 30 years ago they'd be saying it about TNG.
@@Vivi2372 Ah sorry, completely forgot Enterprise. Yeah that was quite a decent Star Trek show too, would have deserved more seasons tbh. But i'm generally so repulsed by abominable Shitscovery and the JJ Abrams movies that i consider Star Trek defunct, desecrated and quite frankly dead since then. I mean, the Oville is better Star Trek than anything officially produced under the IP.
@@marcogenovesi8570 I think you mean after the time war non-sense, for Enterprise, as the time war crap is all there at the start of series. And that's also when you get most of the sort of forced human vs Vulcan issues. The series gets much better once they begin building toward the founding of the Federation. But then, that's the norm for all but ToS... it takes them about two seasons to find their footing. That said, the opening theme song drags Enterprise down across all four seasons.
I have NEVER heard a more concise, in- depth, discussion and, indeed a better explanation of the weapons design and potential history, in such a paleontological point of view by a martial arstist/practitioner/instructor and an expert on historical weapons design! Thank you Matt. By the way, Skal' tends to agree with you, if you were not aware.
I read something many years ago by a HEMA enthusiast who said that, even for humans on earth, it was a fine weapon, his biggest criticism was that it was impractical in THE WAY IT WAS USED in star trek. He described a much different way of using it involving short thrusts and hooking type maneuvers. He described it as a much more defensive style than you see on screen with it being used as a shield more. It was really fascinating and, to my untrained mind, seemed to make a lot of sense.
From experience with the weapon, the standard guard I use, I call the "Wall block" Basically you hide behind the bat'leth. When the attack, you deflect with the wall and hit them with the tail end. Then ten quick, full power, attacks in three seconds usually finishes the engagement.
I’d wanna almost box with it. Keep it close, block and parry with the centre and jab and hook with the ends, maybe think of it like an overgrown trench knife.
Awsome vid Mat. You sold me. I thought it was a little ridiculous but I am not to arrogant to admit I did not properly consider all the points you put forward.
Another interesting observation is that the three handles can actually change the physics of cuts made with them. For example, gripping on the same handle will give you reach and spin physics with very wide chapping movements. Transition to grip the outside handle in one hand and the middle handle in the other, and suddenly you can multiply the force of chops by pulling one handle and pushing the other. This also allows you to change the position of the weapon in a fundamentally different way when compared to the first. And by gripping the outside handle, you suddenly have stupid exact control over the weapon, are poised to receive heavy blows, parry and attack in ways not possible in the above two positions. This grants the weapon a certain amount of unpredictability in that the weilder need only change grip to fundamentally alter their fighting style mid fight similar to half swording as you pointed out. I'm not a martial artist, but I do have a certain level of skill in both stick fighting and the bastard sword without any formal training. I'm more of a martial enthusiast/hobbyist. If you are a martial artist, feel free to kindly correct me where it is appropriate! Keep it up man!
Although I wonder, if you do one long instead of 3 segments, you don't have the blade connections in the middle. Then you basically have one large ring -> ellipse. I of course don't know what that means for balance, or maybe vibrations in the blade or the handle, whether that would make it more practical for the user or not. And of course I don't know anything about Klingon material(s), whether they are prone to vibrations etc. or not.
@@arnaudgerard1971 If you were designing one for real use, the three grip design could be made of thinner/lighter material to reduce the overall weight of the weapon without sacrificing rigidity. The tradeoff for that is more limited grip options. But if your fighting style would be making use of those three positions anyway it might be a worthwhile tradeoff.
Unless humans have evolved tough skin , better reflexes, or regenration then that thing is gonna chop you like pork if it lands wether you're a typical Red Shirt or captian of teh whole ship which in summary emans still prettty freakin' dangerous It's only a question of delivery and opportunity as with many weapons
@@alexanerose4820 Not saying it's a USELESS weapon. I'm saying it's not as dangerous as many real world weapons, which would become only more dangerous in the hands of someone with the power and endurance of a Klingon. But too many fans have it in their heads that a Bat'leth is an unstoppable weapon that will overcome anything.
16:00 regarding the restricted grip. I have often seen in other engineering contexts that devices will be designed in such a way that it becomes harder to use it badly (or moreover hard to make certain rookie mistakes, or very serious mistakes) even if that also cuts down on the flexibility of the device, particularly for experts who would be unlikely to make those mistakes. I'm curious if there's any history of militaries making that kind of design compromise to have weapons that can be more easily trained on and trusted to less experienced soldiers to basically allow them to equip more soldiers with it. Hard to say if that feels in character for the Klingons or not, but just a thought.
You were probably thinking of melee weapons, but that is why automatic weapons went from fully automatic to selective fire. Inexperienced shooters waste ammo and can cause collateral damage as their shots go off target with full auto. A three round burst was a compromise between getting multiple shots at the target and firing effectively.
Yes. After the Indian Mutiny, the British designed several inferior weapons for 'native troops.' There are bolt action 'muskets' with unrifled bores and no magazine on the Enfield bolt action design. Also the US Army has a history of trying to make it harder to empty your magazine. The trapdoor Springfield single shot was used when lever actions were options. The Krag was slower to load than the Mauser. The Springfield 1903 had a magazine cutoff, the Garand took 8rd enbloc clips instead of a 20 round mag, (which was considered.) and the M16 was revised to 3rd burst for a time.
There's also the simple structural consideration that that long grip will need to be made of thicker material than three short ones would. Potentially the three-grip version could have a substantial weight reduction for the low, low price of not being able to hold it in positions you probably weren't using anyway.
@@laurenceperkins7468 I think you're falling victim to the very common problem where one thinks an item isn't as strong as it really is. Many things are stronger then we think they are. Additionally, since Bat'leths are magic space metal, we should most likely add strength to the estimation.
OH! Another example of militaries making compromises is the use of steel sword scabbards. Awful things, they blunt the edge of the sword as you move around. It's much better to use a wood scabbard, but wood scabbards break, so logistics departments pushed metal scabbards. Result was blunt swords in combat. If swords had remained important, I imagine we might have seen serious pushback eventually, but this was quite late in the sword's life as a weapon.
Some very interesting considerations that you've brought up. As only a casual Star Trek enjoyer, my curiosity was drawn by some of the unusual and exotic weapons in the illustrations that you showed. Maybe the content of a future video? As far as the Bat'leth goes, I think another element of the design is its role (as I understand it) in ritualized combat. I would think that might cause the design to become more static, despite more practical considerations. I would like to hear more about how you think it would best be used (though that has probably been done to death by other content creators). Would it be most effective as a chopping weapon? What about thrusting or draw/push cuts? Not being a martial arts practitioner, it seems to me that the concave blade might be useful for binding other weapons and then performing push or draw cuts.
Matt has done videos on (I think) all of the "unusual and exotic weapons" he showed. I'm kind of surprised he didn't use as an example the Central American macahuitl too.
Hello there. I don't often comment on these kind of videos, even though I was an Enlisted Weapons Instructor in the USMC back in 1978 through 1980. I almost started typing frantically early on in the video, but by the end you had addressed my incipient comments topic. That the four foot version of the weapon is probably an 'indoors' and 'confined battlefield' type weapon. I also agree with the idea of straightening out the outer blades for better thrusting use. In addition, I agree that if one were to use this in an open battlefield, that one would do far better with a weapon of at least 5 feet, and probably more... like 6+ feet (I could easily see a strong Warrior wielding a 7 food Bat'Leth on foot and overpowering his foes with the mass of his weapon and utilizing it's better 'reach' to his opponent. Straightening the outer points would also turn this into a pretty good shortish pole arm for thrusting purposes. Even though the resulting weapon would be larger and heavier, it would do better damage to an armored opponent, in the hands of a trained Warrior. I still feel though, that Klingons would have had more 'normal' swords... probably something like an over sized Broadsword as a secondary weapon in case their Bat'Leth was somehow removed from their grasp. Having to fall back to just a knife seems a bit 'silly' to me culturally, even though the Klingons use such knives as an 'honor' weapon... probably to finish off a wounded foe... thus granting them a Warrior's Death and passage to the Warriors Paradise.
I always thought that the weapon actually seemed most similar to various types of bulls or deer that fought to show dominance rather than specifically to kill. In my eyes I feel like Klingons had an analog to this and took inspiration as an icon of strength.
And if you think about it, beying a mithologcal/ceremonial weapon design, an animal inpiration makes a lot of sense. Also, Klingon Houses very ofthen fight against each other, for dominance rather than elimination, so the analogy is very appropriate.
Haven't had a chance to watch it yet but as much as I spent years saying the Bat'leth sucks, it is actually viable in the right hands (and not used anything like the way we see in the show). Give it to someone who's really good at *tai chi*, and ask them to use it - it suddenly works quite well(though it could do with being a little less spikey) - you hold it in close and use it defensively in lots of circular motions as you get right up in there in grappling range, with the option for a couple of longer strikes if needed. It's basically one of those high end exotic martial arts weapons, like a two handed version of sun and moon / deer antler knives / whatever you call them. The sort of thing that IF you're really good martial arts already you can switch over to and do really well with (but a poor battlefield weapon and terrible for giving newbies)
Hello Matt, would be interesting, if you could make a video about how to use the Bat'Leth. Defensive seems to be very easy with it, but how to attack seems to be quite difficult.
Great points, Matt. I would love to see someone make a practice batleth for you, and perhaps you could spar to see how effective it is against a halberd or other weapons.
I'm put in mind of some of the axe-pick hybrids that were used in primarily [i]unarmored[/i] warfare in the Phillipines and Indonesia, which nonetheless focused on concentrating force into a point at the top of the blade. This also let them hook and easily reach over shields. If you consider the Klingon rubber forehead thing to be a more developed sagittal crest, it would make them far less vulnerable to blunt force to the head and further emphasize skull/rib puncturing ability and decapitation.
I think that if you straighten out the outer blades you would actually make it more dangerous for thrusting. As it is, although you can't run someone all the way through with the Bat'leth, you can fully extend the weapon in front of your body without much fear of the opposite blade hooking on your person. I think that is especially true in light of your point about fighting in corridors, because you have the benefits of a longer reach but without increasing the space the weapon occupies.
From experience with the weapon, sweeping attacks are its strength. It is very rare that you would try to stab with it. While you can stab with it, it is more like staff than a sword. But I would make the curve a bit shallower to keep the center of gravity closer to the hand grips.
I am so appreciative of this video. I am a big Klingon enthusiast, and I got beat up in the comments section of Shadiversity's video about the batleH making many of the same arguments. I'm actually surprised that I haven't heard anyone comment on how the demonstrated usage on the show depicts it being used in a similar fashion as a shield, implying even more versatility. Shad even did a video about shields being used offensively. IDK. Just ... this is refreshing. Also, of all videos I've seen on TH-cam about the batleH, this one consistently demonstrated the best pronunciation of the word; better than the actors on the show, IMO. I have studied the language, attended the annual qep'a' (large meeting of the Klingon Language Institute) when it was held in the Chicgoland area, and appreciate this con-lang.
Since it's mostly shown in dueling and the fact that Klingons love to get close enough to bite your face off, I think it's not impractical. Question: Pugil sticks are very similar in handling (length/offending ends) to a Bat'leth. I wonder if you're able to get anyone in your school who has knowledge sparring with Pugil Sticks to try and spar with practice Bat'leths? I would be interested in seeing if the skills carry over.
AIUI the pugil stick was invented to simulate a rifle/bayonet combo, so anyone practiced with a polearm that has pointy bits at both ends should be pretty good with a bat'leth.
Oh, I've been hoping for this one for ages! As others have mentioned, I'd love to see one of your and Tod's experimental videos on this, the mek'leth and the d'k tagh!
I always thought that the Bat’leth was under-rated having also studied Chinese and Okinawan martial arts in addition to American military swordsmanship. I don’t own any fantasy weapons but if I were to choose one to own and train with, the Bat’leth would be my choice. I have seen a trend among in the Star Wars fans of training the lightsaber as a martial art. I would venture to say that if a group of dedicated Star Trek fans started a group that is dedicated to training the Bat’leth, we may learn that its potential as a martial art is greater than most people give it credit for.
Great video and all i ever wanted to hear about the bat'leth! I always thought it was a weapon well suited for a klingon warrior. It is essentially a sharp and pointy barrier between you and your opponent which is great in close combat. That, along with its heaviness and "clumsiness" fits the klingon fighting style i imagine perfectly. It is also very intuitive to use and has multiple ways to be used which might be good when a klingon is too angry for precise fencing. I actually thought about straightening the points as well but then you would have to rotate the weapon so much it would lose much of its defensive potential at that moment. The other point could also be used against the wearer.
I am glad you make me think about different sides of “weapons ideas” I usually think the made up crap from sci-fi shows are useless nerd ideas and have no call to be in the conversation but you sir have always given me such great points of view here I am ... and agreed as usual... I love this show man. I want to buy you an ale some day
I had a customer once ask for a bath'leth. I explained him that I don't have access to baakonite composite (which is the special metal used in them). Nevertheless, I cut one out of 3mm steel and found it to be very very unwieldy. Then I cut one out of aluminium to mimic the props used on the set, and lo and behold, it's actually not a bad weapon. It's meant for a mobile person in active combat, it's not a static-swinging weapon. but you essentially have a shield in front of you; with spikes on either end to jab with. It struggles with spears; but it excells als closer range, and it allows you to close in much quicker then you expect. It would be better being straighter (2 horizontal spikes and 2 vertical spikes) and longer, but this would look less fancy ;-)
The problem I have with a Bat'Leth is edge alignment (or well, more like point algnment). The leverage of the blade in front of the hand makes it rather unwieldy I think.
@@chimaera4461In the fiction, an average Klingon is about twice as strong as an average human. They also have extra muscles and bones in their arms compared to us, so strong wrists are quite likely.
I've made very persuasive argument that this Sci-Fi weapon could be a realistically viable weapon. But the fact that this video was sponsored by a Star Trek online game kind of made the whole effort rather suspect. My apologies. Still you made quite a number of valid points. And I agree about your suggestion on how to improve the weapon. My opinion of this fantasy-weapon is that it's for Dueling rather than field warfare. The Earth weapons you compared the Bat'Leth to were used as dueling weapons among medieval knights. And since as you said it was designed from a Chinese martial arts perspective it could of been used as a military weapon but most likely as a one-on-one weapon in a martial Bout.
As others, including yourself have said. The Bat'Leth was used on board star ships, and in tight quarters, so you would not want a long weapon. I think even a longer sword would be impractical. I've always envisioned using one in a style of the short staff or Bo Staff, as some one else pointed out. The Bat'Leth is both weapon and shield, just like a staff. Keep up the good work.
Melee weapons on space ships make a lot of sense when you think of a species having space travel before they have the ability to prevent ranged weapons from punching holes in the ship.
according to that episode where dax goes on a suicide mission with the kang, kor, and koloth, a 116cm bat'leth is '5.3 kilos'. i chalk this up to the writers judging weapon weights by the dimensions of overbuilt stage props (similar to the way people used to believe medieval "broadswords" were 10-20 pounds)
I'd seen a number of those other weapons specialists who you've mentioned, and I actually have to agree with you on the fact that they didn't dive deeply enough into the the design elements of which the Bat'Leth was based on I personally appreciate that you dove deeper into these design elements of what the Bat'Leth was based upon
Very much like martial arts. They are typically very good against a similar skill set but quite vulnerable against different martial arts depending on their foundations. (Boxing vs wrestling for example, or Karate against Jujitsu).
many years ago at a convention I watched attendees cosplaying the Duras sisters do a short kata with the Bat'leth before their main skit. As I remember it they used a lot of very close circular movements around and across the body. To me they most reminded me of the kind of cuts one would make to dissuade someone trying to get into grappling range and wrestling you. So next up for completeness we need an episode on the Vulcan Lirpa, which has me thinking, especially the Amok Time version, of a very much shortened Monk's spade.
So I think it makes sense to conclude that Klingon hands were unarmored, and that targeting the hands was important enough to prioritize hand protection.
From a lot of sparring with Bat'leths, yes, the hands are a vulnerable point and most experienced swordsmen will target them eventually. But that is easier said than done because there is steel between the hands and the opponent. But is probably the single most effect tactic against the Bat'leth. So when using a Bat'leth, you should be aware of this.
Good video. The only question about the bat'leth I have left is how hard it would be to manufacture in historical Klingon times. Maybe Qo'Nos extruded plate steel from between it's tectonic plates or something or the Klingons developed an ancient way to make plate steel as all bat'leth that I recall from the shows look like they're carved from sheets of steel, even the "older" examples. Baring plate steel, I like to think of a more practical version of this would be inline with your improvements but I also think this weapon would greatly benefit from a wooden or similar inner handle to help with ease of manufacture, weight (especially if you enlarge the weapon), saving material ad saving forging time.
I remember they said in TNG that Klingons have multiple redundant organs, would their weapons need to do wider damage to the body as for example piercing their heart might not immediately kill them? Also, if you think the sword has potential, how about the choreography they used in the shows?
I think they also have a complex ribcage structure, meaning it would likely take much more force to break through compared to a humans (or need more pointy bits to stab between the complex ribs. As far as the way that Worf uses it, his style reminds me a lot of Wu Shu. Lots of smooth and flowing moves that are almost as much style as they are combative.
I think the part where you mentioned armored fighting and showed the spiked shield duel picture drove the idea home most for me. I could really see the parallels with a Bat'Leth there.
Glad to see this! As a martial artist and trekkie myself I always thought the bat’leth was a good design. Picking one up and playing around with it I found that it seems to work well with Okinawan bo technique.
Glad you made this video. I've had some of the same thoughts, I always thought of the martial style of the bat leth as similar to using a modern rifle with blade style bayonet. The user can use both sides to parry, slash, and stab. It's also a good design for fighting in the narrow passageways of a ship. I hadn't considered the ergonomic difference so that was cool.
I'm convinced the bat'leth evolved from a farming tool, and that the concave blade would have made it better suited for harvesting their version of wheat or whatever.
I'm they pretty much outright say it in the episode where they hunt for the Sword of Kahless. They mention he used the blade reap the field and to carve tools. Also Kahless was notably of common blood so the idea that the bat'leth originated as some sort of farming tool makes more sense.
As far as the Bat'leth's intended use, I think there's an episode of DS9 where Worf gives some history on the weapon. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that old klingon weapons were far too agressive, and favored nothing but attack. This lead to wars where too many klingons died, because they were not focused on survival at all. So Kahless the Unforgettable designed a blade with defense in mind. The forward facing crescent was designed to catch incoming blades, parry, and counterattack much more effectively than previous klingon weapons. In addition Kahless created a new martial art to accompany the bat'leth that focused on defense, waiting for opportunities, counterattacks, and overall patience. It's also important Bat'leth translates to "sword of honor." It's seen in Klingon culture as being the most honorable weapon to use. Other weapons, like disruptors, and the mek'leth (kind of like a knife or short sword maybe) are looked down upon as being more weapons of desperation, or by cowards.
Yeah I really liked the design because it certainly looks alien, not like anything on earth (at least not the usual ones) but still looks like a reasonable weapon when you see how it’s used.
Every time there is a knife amnesty there is the obligatory picture of a Bat'leth on display as one of the terrifying weapons that have been handed in.
Great video! I think the weapon was envisioned to be a duelling weapon mostly for judicial fighting vs the same, it's also how it's often used in Star Trek. For war or actual combat Klingons have guns and various types of Daggers. And we also see the odd times someone chooses to go into real combat with a culturally significant dueling weapon which doubtless happened in our real history sometimes. In that context it makes perfect sense. I'd like to see larger ones meant for battlefield use in the series too like you mention, it would be cool especially if they explained it was the original design later adapted to cramped shipboard and duelling size.
Hey, mat! So, I make fighting staffs and hiking sticks. One really peculiar staff, which I call the Elvish Battlestaff, that has three handles and is shaped very strangely. It has a curved lower shaft made from the branching of a tree trunk into it's top branches. The lower shaft is made from one branch, while the other branch was cut short to form the primary handle. That handle is in line with the point of the shaft. Both of these transition into the trunk of the felled tree. Coming off of that trunk are two additional handles, for a total of three handles. The handle closest to the top of the staff, sitting about 3 ish inches from the top, comes out at a 45 ish degree angle compared to the primary handle. This secondary handle is slightly off-center with the primary handle pitched to the left for it to be a left-handed handle, which allows you to multiply the force of a cut by applying forces to these two handles. It's kinda like a two-handed Tonfa. The third handle is positioned about two inches up the triluno section that is 180 degrees rotated left of the primary handle. This third handle lets you push down with one handle and pull down with this one, allowing you to apply your back and core muscles into the stroke, giving it a mean strike. Hit me up and I'll send you a picture of it's configuration. It's a very unorthodox weapon, but is surprisingly easy to handle.
Good points all around. Personally, I've always loved the Bat'leth in principle, but had issues with it's execution. Most of the issues I see are the same ones I have with film/video game design in general and just took as artifacts of the exaggeration and haste inherent in that context. Weapons in media are almost always grossly out of proportion and crudely executed so they "read" better on screen and can be easily fabricated en masse, ergonomics be damned (there are exceptions). However, with some thought and nuance applied to the principle in profile, cross section, and balance, it would be glorious to wield. Probably a minor nightmare to produce, but that's an entirely different matter. Always wanted a nice pattern-welded one...
Thanks to Scopely for sponsoring this video - Download Star Trek Fleet Command on iOS & Android and battle in the Star Trek universe here: pixly.go2cloud.org/SH2rH
I love how the sponsor legitimately fits into the video
Get a practice bat'leth from Purple Heart Armory to test please!
show this to shad at your next game.
Hello Matt I hope you are well, happy Christmas to you and your family and all the best of luck for the channel in the new year...cheers now
Scopely sucks!
Aw come on, I literally just recorded a video about the Bat'leth and am still editing... Nobody is going to believe that's a coincidence. xD
Does that count as being mooned?
It'll be interesting nonetheless
I would still watch yours too. There is an episode in Deep Space Nine where Lt. Dax makes a hologram Batleth and give very percise measurements. Unfortunately I don't know the episode off hand.
Here it is. th-cam.com/video/tZYXtzuTkvE/w-d-xo.html
To be fair you made a review years ago in the mohawk days of your channel of a different Klingon weapon , the Mek'leth , which was kind of like a kukri with a sharpend knuckle guard on it. It's been a long time since I watched it but I think you did shit on the bat'leth, but you kinda dug the Mek'leth.
So all the weapon people who were scoffing about the bat'leth a few years ago are now double backing on themselves?!🤔
We actually see a bat'leth variant in Worf's quarters with a significantly lengthened central grip. That might be onscreen evidence for a hypothetical longer "battlefield" version of the bat'leth.
Gonna have to see a 3D version of it I think to be sure :)
Or a bat'leth tailored for fighting mounted opponents perhaps. It hasn't got any guard on the grip, which basically turns it into the haft of a polearm.
"Battlefield Bat´leth", I like this name.
do you remember the episode number?
@@williamgallagher4959 don't remember the number but you get a good look at Worf's quarters in the episode where perform the Right of Assention and Duras is killed. It is in season 3 I believe.
On a slightly different topic in Way of the Warrior Dad has the Holosuite produce a Bat'leth if I recall correctly she gives length and weight.. Worf mentions it was a "warrior's configuration"
Star Trek nerd here.
In Next Generation and DS9 episodes we see Worf and other Klingons (and the occasional human) using the bat'leth as a draw/push cutter, chopper *and* stabber, plus hooking opponent's arms and legs. Binding with the curved front edge is extremely important.
To my mind the typical bat'leth fight proceeds somewhat like a Sumo bout. There's an initial rush and clash often resulting in a bind, then some fencing roughly equivalent to grappling for a leverage advantage, then one combatant is taken off their feet. A typical finishing strike is a downward two-handed chop/stab taking advantage of the angle of the pointy ends; notice that the opposite end curves *away* from the user in that move, unlike what's seen in most fantasy weapons.
As to the weapon's length, in lore it should be equal to your height when you take a knee (so that if one leg is disabled you can still fight effectively). I'm six feet tall so for me, *with my build*, that works out to almost exactly 4' 6" rather than he "official" five foot length so perhaps the average ancient Klingon was a bit taller than the average modern human or were longer in the torso.
Finally, there are fan groups who practice bat'leth fighting developing various fight styles, and holding competitions at conventions, based on what's seen on screen. Pseudo-Historical Klingon Martial Arts, one might say. (A Klingon could probably pronounce PhKMA but I can't.)
The binding wouldn't actually work. It doesn't really work with swords either, outside of movies. However, the way it doesn't work makes it a better weapon. The bind always happens after somebody has blocked to give the fighters a chance to stare and growl at each other. If you look at the position the bat'leth usually has at the point of the bind, then you would see that in that situation the defender can easily attack the left or right of his opponent. A sword would give only one attack direction.
"As to the weapon's length, in lore it should be equal to your height when you take a knee"
Where is this stated in the lore?
Also didnt Dax in DS9 specify exactly to the computer how she wanted hers in lenght and weight before she sparred with a klingon warrior she had known for many years in her former body
@@ronhan9 I think you're right.
My headcanon is that the bat'leths we see are mass produced standardized models stocked in all Klingon ships' armories and issued for their versions of away missions, and that each House may have its private versions (explaining the slight differences we see). Officers at or above Captain rank might be expected to carry their own custom models but your average warrior has to use the "one-size-fits-none" standard, but probably also trains with them.
@@Matt_Alaric I've tried to post responses twice but they go away for some reason (either that or I can't see them for some reason).
I saw it in a non-canon book but can't remember author or title.
Do a search for "how long should a bat'leth be" or "sizing a bat'leth". There are fan sites giving the same advice but also not citing a source (dammit).
Quite a bit is known about Klingon biology. The episode where Worf is paralyzed told us they have a lot of biological redundancy. Twice as many ribs and a fortified spinal cord for instance. So not only do they wear armor literally everywhere, their skeletal structure is almost a subcutaneous armor as well
Taking that into account, it always seemed to me, and seemed that the show was trying to depict, that the bat'leth was intended as sort of an armed grappling weapon. Kind of like a poleax as mentioned in the video. You would use it to try to force the opponent off balance in melee and then use one of the two longer points to stab into the opponent's ribs.
Was that the episode when we found out that Klingons are evolved from basically humanoid scorpions?
@@GuyNamedSean If you exclude ceremonial and traditional styles - stuff like competitive fencing and kendo - sword fights always include grappling. Sometimes a lot, sometimes only in decisive moves. Bulky heavy multi-pointed blades tend to make grapples more clumsy, risky, and difficult for both the wielder and the opponent.
@@wirelessg18 no, it's the episode where Worfs back is broken and he gets a newly cloned spine (s5 ep16 "Ethics")
@@sadrak-px8wq appreciate it
Speaking on biology, you can also come down to things like metabolism and oxygen exchange. If another species tires faster, or slower, or has more explosive metabolism, that can also change how weapons are designed/ used.
No
Gorillas share 96% of our DNA and almost all the same bones and even tendon and muscle connections. However in spite of all these similarities they are incapable of throwing overhand, hand lift around 25 times their body mass, vs a human who typically can’t lift twice their weight and have no endurance in comparison to a reasonably athletic human who can run for hours vs a few minutes for a gorilla.
Personally, I'd wouldn't be beamed with a Bat'Leth in a disruptor fight!😬
@@john-paulsilke893 Speak for your self!💪✌️
One of the things we do know about klingon biology is lots of redundancy in organs, and they have a lattice work rib structure, meaning the heavy tines on the bat'leth make a degree of sense trying to punch through their ribs to get to their organs.
It was great to see you apply historical analysis and thought processes to a fictional weapon. Hmm, now I'm wondering if I can source one to try from horseback.
Can you Test it while Wearing armor. Both on Horse back and on foot. You could also test it's Usefulness against Both Shields and armor. Lastly. Is it more Effective in Tight spaces Like in a Castle, ship or Battle line formation. or Is it better when you have more space like open field. Would it be more like a sword like a every day self defense weapon. or more for duals, Arenas, tournaments or other such event based battles. Edit: Also the Bat'Leth Maybe use-able while fighting in or under water. It maybe good as an amphibious assault weapon. Which would be nice to test as well.
Batleth on horseback video. 🤣 Yes please!
Did the Klingons use them while mounted on targs?
I hadn't considered the length difference inherent between a naval infantry weapon, intended for combat in close confines, and a infantryman's weapon intended for the open field. This would make Worf's personal weapon a sailor's cutlass version of the bat'leth ... and suddenly the triple-grip makes sense. It needs to be able to absorb the attack of the heavier landsman's weapon, and it needs to be lighter, without sacrificing strength. It's not only shorter, handier in close confines, it's also structuraly lighter, with narrower ribs and grip-points ... so it gets more ribs, and a somewhat skeletonised appearance in comparison to, say, the Sword of Kah'less. Damn ... Dan Curry was The Man!
I think the main stumbling block is how it's always referred to as the "Klingon Battle Sword", based on it's unitary construction and full-length cutting edge ... Really, it combines the features and function of a defensive short polearm, one designed to break armour, and a battle-AXE, designed to maximize the destructive power of a single massive strike. All in a package designed for (relatively) easy carrying. That it can still be gripped and manipulated from any point in its frame, due to the handgrip being a separate structure behind the cutting edge, also makes switching between defensive and offensive action surprisingly swift, especially given the mass of the thing.
Why would it get to be light as a ship, something you can mount or a wall and grab instead of having to lugg around and also when wrapping into rooms is a thing? Tons of cutlasses Matt showed in several video are about the same weight as long saber or heavier and made sturdier.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 Heavy weapons can be harder to use for extended periods, which could matter a lot. Italian Cavalry in the 19th century did training with a lighter sword than their fighting sword, because they had entire days of training and didn't want fencing practice to be too tiring.
I mostly find it odd that people do refer to it as the "Klingon Battle Sword" when they have a seperate battle sword design the Mek'leth th-cam.com/video/H0dLUtMViUI/w-d-xo.html
Mostly, @@PJDAltamirus0425 , at least in my mind, because it carried through pre-space travel into actual shipboard carry and use, and the Klingon's slightly odd fetish for light, agile corvettes instead of heavier cruisers. Also, it was obviously a weapon they were not willing to abandon, so modifications were made to keep it at least somewhat practical for regular carry. No one, no matter how obsessive, will be entirely happy about carrying the equivalent of a bearded war axe AND spiked shield as personal sidearms, so ... stripping some mass, shortening it to make it both a bit handier and lighter for daily carry, and reinforcing the structure so it can still carry the brunt of action just make sense.
Also, cutlasses were very much "daily use" sidearms, and expected to do a lot of heavy work lighter infantry and cavalry sabers would not be subjected to, and being too LIGHT for a task isn't one of the bat'leth's faults.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 Advanced materials technology. Lighter, more durable, and harder materials are possible in the Trek age. Ergo, a weapon with the lightness of aluminum, strength of heavy steel, and edge retention of high carbon steel would be a good thing. Add in that their world (I believe) has higher gravity, a lighter weapon would be faster in their hands
Matt, you really need to look into whether or not anybody makes synthetic practice bat'leths so that you can take it to your class and see how well they actually work. Then you should have Tod make a proper one from steel and sharpened and see how well it cuts.
I'd love to see vids of this
Purple Heart Armory has one.
Oh god, a Todd-made bat'leth for weird historical^W sci-fi weapons would be *amazing*. I'd love to see that collaboration.
I’m also super curious how it’d do against earth swords.
@@Tarnfalk One-handed or Two-handed? I wonder if someone one day will mod the game "Hellish Quart" with a Klingon using a Bat'leth? That would be fun to watch.
I never considered this weapon in the context of close quarters armored combat. Once you mentioned armored combat, I could suddenly see its practical usage.
Yeah it'd be a better grappling implement than even a poleaxe with the curves and projections
i use a bat'leth in a VRchat game where you can draw your own weapon and armor.
A lot of people wonder how i could beat them, i just block their weapon with the bat'leth while stabing them between their armor in the same move
Have to say, I've never seen the comparison to a two-handed dueling shield, but, now that you pointed it out, I can't unsee it.
I've played with a Bat'leth before, and it's actually pretty easy to thrust with BECAUSE the outward blades are curved. When you try to thrust one-handed with it, your natural grip will have to be slightly angled, which results in the curved edge of the outward blade actually pointing straight forward.
Not watched it in decades, but from what I remember from TNG, the Bat'Leth was originally mostly a cultural artefact for Worf, which he embraced and tried to learn because he was an orphan brought up by humans who wanted to reconnect with his Klingon heritage. He used it to reenact historical and mythological Klingon battles and duels on the Enterprise holodeck. Originally it didn't really matter if it was a practical weapon- it was a symbol of his identity that mattered to Worf's character. But the fandom decided it was really cool so the writers created loads of extra lore for it and increasingly incorporated it into battle scenes. Which is basically just being a good writer who responds to audience feedback.
Yep, the first time we see one, Worf uses it in combat against Duras, who is wielding a pretty traditional-looking sword. Which brings up an important aspect of consideration for the bat'leth as a weapon - its not only used against other bat'leths. It needs to be considered assuming that some Klingons will counter it with different weapons.
The biggest change I might make is dulling the central edge in front of the hands.
If you're fighting another bat'leth user, odds are that area is going to smack into the enemy blade a lot. Given the design, it's really hard to not hit edge on edge, and edge on edge is likely to damage that portion quickly. Also, it's the least likely area to actually cut with. You have to get past the big vertical line of defense (the other guy's bat'leth), then strike in, then slide sideways. That's really hard. Most of the killing will happen with the pointy bits.
So the central area should basically be a giant ricasso. Keep it tough and blunt to reduce damage and use that for defense, then swing the sharp and pointy bits around over/under the enemy's weapon out of a bind to stab him. And for that, the blades curving in as they do works better, as you will mostly be striking with a swing, not a linear stab.
So basically, it's an anti-armor *stabbing* weapon (those look like pretty robust points), with an absolutely massive ricasso to protect your hands. You basically block with the ricasso and repost in a swing in a single move.
Though I totally agree that a single-hole grip would be better, especially if doing larger swings.
I do have some concerns about it being forward heavy, but that can probably be addressed mainly by how you hold it and swing it. If you hold it diagonally, close to you, it's probably not a big deal. And if you are mostly swinging in an arc, then that forward weight helps give it more penetrative power.
Now please do the Mek'leth! :-)
On the other hand you have the entire forward curve to bind with.
Re the Mek'leth - actually looks quite practical. It's pretty much a kukri or small forward-curved falchion with a knuckle bow, right? Not half as daft as it first appears.
From a lot of experience, the first thing to do is "fatten" the grips so that they are more comfortable when striking. The way they are usually made, with leather wrapped around steel, makes it very hard to get your body weight behind a strike.
Have you seen the fight between Qui Gon and Maul? Yes, Maul stabs him with the blade, yet before that, he knocks him with the handle. If that handle had been sharpened, Qui Gon not only would have been startled, but pretty heavily wounded already at the chin.
Yes, it's probably not easy to get passed the opponents Bat'Leth, or whatever other weapon he might use, but at the moment you would do it, you might slice his throat already. Maybe, if the material really isn't that great in retaining sharpness (I'd say, it would be a Klingon material ;) nevertheless: I would still go sharpened edge every day of the week.
Riposte not repost
I remember when I first saw the battleth I thought, "Looks cool, not practical."
Then when they showed Worf using it, it was clear some actual thought went into it.
I use a bat'leth occassional in LARP and in sparring. I am not usually allowed to use it very often because it is too easy to beat my opponents and is considered unfair and unsporting.
@@spacecadet35 It's oh so much easier to try to limit what others can do than it is to improve themselves. I think, instead of, basically handicapping you, they should work to get better, maybe even learn to use one themselves and become overall better LARPers.
@@spacecadet35 Interesting. How do you deal with side blows to the blade messing the edge alignment and with the reduced leverage in a bind? In my limited experience I've found hooking, long range, and quick leveraging far superior to binds and hands-apart stances.
That said, I can see how people would want to restrict it the same way they usually restrict spears and greatswords. If you're not larping in armour, things can go south pretty fast.
Anyone trained in rifle and bayonet can see this could be used with effect, left parry,right parry, lunge,butt stroke,the cross check and slash. I would have no problem using in close contact.
You mention good improvements. I definitely think unobstructed hand movement is key, but eliminating all the segments decreases structural integrity. Compromise with two big grip-holes separated by a middle strut. Plus, this weapon seems to want to turn in the hands, so the grip needs to be well-shaped and enough mass needs to be kept in the handle to offset that tendency. Totally agree on the points needed for thrusting, but I think that can be achieved by adding spikes without altering the weapon's continuous curve. Making me smile as always, Matt! :)
16:46 I actually like where the points are, imagine swinging it with one hand. Much like the Falx sword, that would allow you to stab off of a swing; which makes for a very powerful penetrative attack
This is probably the most thoughtful bat'leth video i have seen.
For fighting in confined spaces (hallways, spaceships, indoors) I think a bat'leth with multiple grip points, striking points and hand protection would be super useful.
the striking points being ahead of the grip would also make generating heavy strikes without tons of room for wind ups or maneuvering a lot easier.
On Deep Space 9. Jadzia Dax gives us measurements for a Batleth in "warriors configuration" Kor's words. It is as follows "A "warrior's configuration" for a bat'leth was "tip to tip 116 centimeters, weight five point three kilos with an exterior handgripping diameter of five centimeters "
Will we be looking at the Mek'leth next time they sponsor a video? Or perhaps the Lurpa.
Great video! Good analysis. In the various series they make a point of the "overdesign" of Klingon physiology, specifically things like 23 ribs, an eight chambered heart, and multiple internal organs. The bony protuberances on their forwards are shown to extend down their backs and other parts of their bodies are shown to have some level of perhaps vestigial internal armoring. The episode in which Worf devolved into some form of ancient Klingon showed him with a full exoskeleton. So in this sense the comments about the bat'eth being designed for armor making even more sense. The Klingon is always armored. I think this is why other Klingon weapons like the d'k tahg and kut'luch are so vicious looking is because you have to do really terrible damage to hope to kill a Klingon.
I like the way that you bring the totality of the question into consideration. A very good approach to understanding all types of situations. Fun too.
For Improving the design, I would also add side scales. Those grips are basically leather wrapped sheet metal. For human hands, I would round that out with wood, bone, or whatever, for a more secure, and comfortable grip. (In addition to what Matt said, straight side spikes, and more grip options in general.)
For a human user, that would be quite sensible. For Klingons, however, that would likely be considered a cultural affront. They are no strangers to ergonomics, as their disruptors and other types of meelee weapons show, but the bat'leth is sort of a ritualistic weapon heavily tied to Klingon mythology. A lot of Klingon rituals require the endurance of pain and discomfort, so I guess that's why the bat'leth never got updated in the way other weapons have.
Dear Matt. I've been waiting for YEARS for you to make this movie. Thank you! Merry christmas, and a happy new year, from a big great klingon-nerd!
Very glad to see you bringing up Dan Curry; I remember reading about his intentions and methodology in coming up with the Bat'leth and creating an exotic but practical weapon, and I always wondered about that whenever I saw people criticising the weapon.
Brilliant work Matt. This is excellent. Especially for acknowledging the designers' history and combining it with the massive and excellent array of pictures and explanations
Love the idea that what we see in ST are basically Klingon cutlasses, because the action happens on ships.
They have limited size (for a two-handed weapon), are relatively flat, so can be stowed away in tight compartments in armories. Sounds like a ship weapon, alright!
And in situations where a Bat'leth is too big or bulky, there's a dagger close at hand to allow stabbing at extremely close quarters.
I think it's also worth considering Klingon cultre. They have a strong warrior tradition based culture and strong sense of honor and sport. They may have intentionally designed the Bat'leth to be somewhat impractical and hard to use so that weilding it would be more of a sport in battle. The fight would be harder and take longer to finish. Using it effectively in battle would be a personal challenge.
I have also long held that the bat'leth may also have had quite the ceremonial place in Klingon culture and perhaps being primarily a training tool as well, which could explain much too. cheers!
I'd love to see you take look at the Mek'leth, I've loved it since I first saw it in DS9 ☺️
I'd still love to have a Bat'leth though, even if a 5 foot blade would be as big as me x
I felt that you gave a very fair and well conceived analysis of the Bat'leth. As a life log Trek fan and history geek I really enjoyed your video. You didn't poke fun and your comments were constructive. Thank you, Very entertaining!
11:30 well the theory is that the in universe reason for the design is twofold. 1 Klingons Don't use shields because they find it dishonorable and bat'leth was suposed to offer some defensive capabilites. and the second was to temper the Klingon natural battle frenzy becasue it required a lot of practice to use effficiently
and there is also a history it started as some kind of a farming tool (which I cna see since it always kidna reminded me to antlers (and antlers were some of the earliest human tool matherial) )
What an excellent, erudite video! No idea how this ended up on my recommended list, but very glad it did. You've won another subscriber with it. :)
If anyone could make highly educated points about the possible contexts of the Bat'leth it would be you, Matt 🤯 Thanks again for the entertaining and informative take on a subject i didn't expect to look into.
Oh, also the blade design makes sense considering advanced (i presume) Klingon metallurgy.
I'm so happy that my two favourite (and most trusted) HEMA experts give the Bat'leth serious credibility. Thanks, Matt!
It is basicly a huge two handed can opener. So yeah, the armored combat weapon concept does make sense actually.
In the context of a boarding weapon, it makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the fantastic video!
I read a few great internet treatises on the Bat'Leth. One thing that strikes me as interesting, is the lore behind its invention. An unskilled warrior poet/bard created the weapon under the nose of a powerful and brutal overlord. He took passionate youths, farmers, craftsmen, and trained them as a small guerrilla army to battle the much larger, more professional oppressors armies.
The culture had swords, flails, spears, (We see some "historical" weapons through the show), but these were used without shields (as shields were considered cowardly, and when they were used, were discarded immediately when battle began so as to effect more power in their strikes). And "professional warriors" would rely on excessive rage to carry them through enemies with sheer brutality and force.
So, by designing a slower, more defensive weapon, one that can catch powerful two handed blows and redirect them, while still allowing a reverse counter strike, would be valuable. The amateurs were forced to learn control, to redirect the much more ferocious warriors strikes and use that power against them as they over-committed and opened themselves to the back end of the weapon which could thrust upwards into ribs/arm pits. The weapon also allowed them to work as units on the battlefield, as unlike a flail or a massive two handed sword, you could stay close and attack the same opponent together, where the oppressors armies would be a mob of individual warriors attacking without finesse or defence with the biggest weapon at hand.
The Bat'Leth is basically a shield, axe, and sword all rolled into one unit, a unit strong enough to absorb blows, fast enough to counter-strike, but powerful enough to crack armour and tough Klingon hides.
This is why the creator taught joy, not rage like the oppressor had. Taught them to slow and to think in battle, to work in formation, to use terrain and to learn from other battles through song, and to share tactics, not hold them as family secrets. He tempered them in a way they would accept and so won out against a much larger (less organized) force that used brutality and numbers above all else to win. He out thought his opponents, out finessed them, and outlasted them until their own rage made them vulnerable and weak.
Love it! Even if there are "superior" alternatives, sometimes a weapon with strong traditions behind it will be more popular. Klingon cultures values tradition strongly, and this story would elevate the Bat'Leth higher than it's practical purpose might indicate.
@@richlee3777 I think when you look at it as a purposefully challenging weapon to wield (thus increasing the honour of the few who wield it masterfully, as only the calm and thoughtful can master it), and a weapon built for a purpose long since abandoned, it changes the context and reveals a new purpose born from the tradition.
Now that's a nice poem song they will sing about you in Sto'Vo'Kor.
(Even if it's true or not :)
I appreciate the daily upload this last week of 2021, when most of other TH-camrs are taking a break, you are providing content more frequently, along with a number of collaborations with other channels such as IGN and Tod's. Great holiday entertainment, thanks!
As someone who's trained (not extensively) in Okinawan staff technique I've generally thought of the bat'leth in those terms. It's clearly not a sword but as a short range polearm it makes a certain amount of sense. I have a replica of Worfs mek'leth in my collection which I need to make a sparing version of at some point. I think Michael Dorn has much larger hands than I do.
A double-ended Falx perhaps? Were the Klingons Dacian? Great video Matt, possibly one of the longest Star Trek related videos I've ever sat through with any real interest. BTW, agree with the hand-hold comments, that's the first thing I thought of once seeing the weapon.
The original batleth is a lot better than the new redesigned ones.
I agree
Everything original Star Trek is better than any of the new stuff. Because everything past Voyager was made by imbeciles.
@@axelhopfinger533 The same people who made Voyager made Enterprise bud.
And if this were over 20 years ago people would be saying the same thing about DS9 and Voyager. And if it were over 30 years ago they'd be saying it about TNG.
@@Vivi2372 Ah sorry, completely forgot Enterprise. Yeah that was quite a decent Star Trek show too, would have deserved more seasons tbh.
But i'm generally so repulsed by abominable Shitscovery and the JJ Abrams movies that i consider Star Trek defunct, desecrated and quite frankly dead since then.
I mean, the Oville is better Star Trek than anything officially produced under the IP.
@@marcogenovesi8570 I think you mean after the time war non-sense, for Enterprise, as the time war crap is all there at the start of series. And that's also when you get most of the sort of forced human vs Vulcan issues. The series gets much better once they begin building toward the founding of the Federation. But then, that's the norm for all but ToS... it takes them about two seasons to find their footing.
That said, the opening theme song drags Enterprise down across all four seasons.
I have NEVER heard a more concise, in- depth, discussion and, indeed a better explanation of the weapons design and potential history, in such a paleontological point of view by a martial arstist/practitioner/instructor and an expert on historical weapons design! Thank you Matt. By the way, Skal' tends to agree with you, if you were not aware.
I read something many years ago by a HEMA enthusiast who said that, even for humans on earth, it was a fine weapon, his biggest criticism was that it was impractical in THE WAY IT WAS USED in star trek. He described a much different way of using it involving short thrusts and hooking type maneuvers. He described it as a much more defensive style than you see on screen with it being used as a shield more. It was really fascinating and, to my untrained mind, seemed to make a lot of sense.
From experience with the weapon, the standard guard I use, I call the "Wall block" Basically you hide behind the bat'leth. When the attack, you deflect with the wall and hit them with the tail end. Then ten quick, full power, attacks in three seconds usually finishes the engagement.
I’d wanna almost box with it. Keep it close, block and parry with the centre and jab and hook with the ends, maybe think of it like an overgrown trench knife.
@@joshuahadams - Your idea sounds good to me. There is more than one right way to use a weapon.
@@spacecadet35This sounds like a sure way to die against a combination of spear and shield.
@@TorianTammas - You modify your technique against different weapons. I fight differently against a polearm or spear than I do against a sword
Awsome vid Mat. You sold me. I thought it was a little ridiculous but I am not to arrogant to admit I did not properly consider all the points you put forward.
Another interesting observation is that the three handles can actually change the physics of cuts made with them. For example, gripping on the same handle will give you reach and spin physics with very wide chapping movements.
Transition to grip the outside handle in one hand and the middle handle in the other, and suddenly you can multiply the force of chops by pulling one handle and pushing the other. This also allows you to change the position of the weapon in a fundamentally different way when compared to the first.
And by gripping the outside handle, you suddenly have stupid exact control over the weapon, are poised to receive heavy blows, parry and attack in ways not possible in the above two positions.
This grants the weapon a certain amount of unpredictability in that the weilder need only change grip to fundamentally alter their fighting style mid fight similar to half swording as you pointed out.
I'm not a martial artist, but I do have a certain level of skill in both stick fighting and the bastard sword without any formal training. I'm more of a martial enthusiast/hobbyist.
If you are a martial artist, feel free to kindly correct me where it is appropriate!
Keep it up man!
.....Yeah, but you accomplish the same thing quicker with one long hand hold along being to do pool cueing.
@@PJDAltamirus0425 I hadn't thought about that... This is why y'all are the experts! 😂
@@kitsunekierein7253 I'm not an expert.. I've just toyed around with allot of weapons... Matt is the expert.
Although I wonder, if you do one long instead of 3 segments, you don't have the blade connections in the middle. Then you basically have one large ring -> ellipse. I of course don't know what that means for balance, or maybe vibrations in the blade or the handle, whether that would make it more practical for the user or not. And of course I don't know anything about Klingon material(s), whether they are prone to vibrations etc. or not.
@@arnaudgerard1971 If you were designing one for real use, the three grip design could be made of thinner/lighter material to reduce the overall weight of the weapon without sacrificing rigidity. The tradeoff for that is more limited grip options. But if your fighting style would be making use of those three positions anyway it might be a worthwhile tradeoff.
I'd love to see some armoured sparring with Batleth now :D
The Bat'leth is like a Klingon - it's scary, and dangerous, but not as dangerous as a lot of people claim.
Unless humans have evolved tough skin , better reflexes, or regenration then that thing is gonna chop you like pork if it lands wether you're a typical Red Shirt or captian of teh whole ship which in summary emans still prettty freakin' dangerous
It's only a question of delivery and opportunity as with many weapons
@@alexanerose4820 Not saying it's a USELESS weapon. I'm saying it's not as dangerous as many real world weapons, which would become only more dangerous in the hands of someone with the power and endurance of a Klingon. But too many fans have it in their heads that a Bat'leth is an unstoppable weapon that will overcome anything.
So much energy went into researching this hypothetical... yet I have been wondering about this for over 20 years! Thanks Matt!
16:00 regarding the restricted grip. I have often seen in other engineering contexts that devices will be designed in such a way that it becomes harder to use it badly (or moreover hard to make certain rookie mistakes, or very serious mistakes) even if that also cuts down on the flexibility of the device, particularly for experts who would be unlikely to make those mistakes. I'm curious if there's any history of militaries making that kind of design compromise to have weapons that can be more easily trained on and trusted to less experienced soldiers to basically allow them to equip more soldiers with it. Hard to say if that feels in character for the Klingons or not, but just a thought.
You were probably thinking of melee weapons, but that is why automatic weapons went from fully automatic to selective fire. Inexperienced shooters waste ammo and can cause collateral damage as their shots go off target with full auto. A three round burst was a compromise between getting multiple shots at the target and firing effectively.
Yes. After the Indian Mutiny, the British designed several inferior weapons for 'native troops.' There are bolt action 'muskets' with unrifled bores and no magazine on the Enfield bolt action design.
Also the US Army has a history of trying to make it harder to empty your magazine. The trapdoor Springfield single shot was used when lever actions were options. The Krag was slower to load than the Mauser. The Springfield 1903 had a magazine cutoff, the Garand took 8rd enbloc clips instead of a 20 round mag, (which was considered.) and the M16 was revised to 3rd burst for a time.
There's also the simple structural consideration that that long grip will need to be made of thicker material than three short ones would. Potentially the three-grip version could have a substantial weight reduction for the low, low price of not being able to hold it in positions you probably weren't using anyway.
@@laurenceperkins7468 I think you're falling victim to the very common problem where one thinks an item isn't as strong as it really is. Many things are stronger then we think they are. Additionally, since Bat'leths are magic space metal, we should most likely add strength to the estimation.
OH! Another example of militaries making compromises is the use of steel sword scabbards. Awful things, they blunt the edge of the sword as you move around. It's much better to use a wood scabbard, but wood scabbards break, so logistics departments pushed metal scabbards. Result was blunt swords in combat.
If swords had remained important, I imagine we might have seen serious pushback eventually, but this was quite late in the sword's life as a weapon.
Now you gotta talk about the gurfi stick used by Tuskens in Star Wars
Scholagladatoria makes much more sense in the original Klingon.
Which would be {yanwI' DuSaQ}, for anyone interested in a translation.
This is a great and interesting video. I like hearing you breakdown fantasy/sci-fi weapons.
Some very interesting considerations that you've brought up. As only a casual Star Trek enjoyer, my curiosity was drawn by some of the unusual and exotic weapons in the illustrations that you showed. Maybe the content of a future video?
As far as the Bat'leth goes, I think another element of the design is its role (as I understand it) in ritualized combat. I would think that might cause the design to become more static, despite more practical considerations.
I would like to hear more about how you think it would best be used (though that has probably been done to death by other content creators). Would it be most effective as a chopping weapon? What about thrusting or draw/push cuts? Not being a martial arts practitioner, it seems to me that the concave blade might be useful for binding other weapons and then performing push or draw cuts.
Matt has done videos on (I think) all of the "unusual and exotic weapons" he showed. I'm kind of surprised he didn't use as an example the Central American macahuitl too.
Hello there.
I don't often comment on these kind of videos, even though I was an Enlisted Weapons Instructor in the USMC back in 1978 through 1980.
I almost started typing frantically early on in the video, but by the end you had addressed my incipient comments topic. That the four foot version of the weapon is probably an 'indoors' and 'confined battlefield' type weapon.
I also agree with the idea of straightening out the outer blades for better thrusting use. In addition, I agree that if one were to use this in an open battlefield, that one would do far better with a weapon of at least 5 feet, and probably more... like 6+ feet (I could easily see a strong Warrior wielding a 7 food Bat'Leth on foot and overpowering his foes with the mass of his weapon and utilizing it's better 'reach' to his opponent.
Straightening the outer points would also turn this into a pretty good shortish pole arm for thrusting purposes. Even though the resulting weapon would be larger and heavier, it would do better damage to an armored opponent, in the hands of a trained Warrior.
I still feel though, that Klingons would have had more 'normal' swords... probably something like an over sized Broadsword as a secondary weapon in case their Bat'Leth was somehow removed from their grasp. Having to fall back to just a knife seems a bit 'silly' to me culturally, even though the Klingons use such knives as an 'honor' weapon... probably to finish off a wounded foe... thus granting them a Warrior's Death and passage to the Warriors Paradise.
I always thought that the weapon actually seemed most similar to various types of bulls or deer that fought to show dominance rather than specifically to kill. In my eyes I feel like Klingons had an analog to this and took inspiration as an icon of strength.
Thats actually an interesting thought. It even matches up with out they are shown being used against each other, locking horns if you will.
And if you think about it, beying a mithologcal/ceremonial weapon design, an animal inpiration makes a lot of sense.
Also, Klingon Houses very ofthen fight against each other, for dominance rather than elimination, so the analogy is very appropriate.
That makes sense
Haven't had a chance to watch it yet but as much as I spent years saying the Bat'leth sucks, it is actually viable in the right hands (and not used anything like the way we see in the show).
Give it to someone who's really good at *tai chi*, and ask them to use it - it suddenly works quite well(though it could do with being a little less spikey) - you hold it in close and use it defensively in lots of circular motions as you get right up in there in grappling range, with the option for a couple of longer strikes if needed. It's basically one of those high end exotic martial arts weapons, like a two handed version of sun and moon / deer antler knives / whatever you call them. The sort of thing that IF you're really good martial arts already you can switch over to and do really well with (but a poor battlefield weapon and terrible for giving newbies)
Hello Matt, would be interesting, if you could make a video about how to use the Bat'Leth. Defensive seems to be very easy with it, but how to attack seems to be quite difficult.
I remember 20+ years ago someone made a book on bat'leth technique but paramount sued them before I could buy a copy
Great points, Matt. I would love to see someone make a practice batleth for you, and perhaps you could spar to see how effective it is against a halberd or other weapons.
I'm put in mind of some of the axe-pick hybrids that were used in primarily [i]unarmored[/i] warfare in the Phillipines and Indonesia, which nonetheless focused on concentrating force into a point at the top of the blade. This also let them hook and easily reach over shields. If you consider the Klingon rubber forehead thing to be a more developed sagittal crest, it would make them far less vulnerable to blunt force to the head and further emphasize skull/rib puncturing ability and decapitation.
You just got a pretty solid reply from Shad on this. Cant wait for the reply!
Regarding the three holes instead of the one, could it be like short hilted swords where its meant to promote/force "proper grip"?
A great objective review! I love to see you work/play with Tod Cutler too!
I think that if you straighten out the outer blades you would actually make it more dangerous for thrusting. As it is, although you can't run someone all the way through with the Bat'leth, you can fully extend the weapon in front of your body without much fear of the opposite blade hooking on your person.
I think that is especially true in light of your point about fighting in corridors, because you have the benefits of a longer reach but without increasing the space the weapon occupies.
From experience with the weapon, sweeping attacks are its strength. It is very rare that you would try to stab with it. While you can stab with it, it is more like staff than a sword. But I would make the curve a bit shallower to keep the center of gravity closer to the hand grips.
I am so appreciative of this video. I am a big Klingon enthusiast, and I got beat up in the comments section of Shadiversity's video about the batleH making many of the same arguments. I'm actually surprised that I haven't heard anyone comment on how the demonstrated usage on the show depicts it being used in a similar fashion as a shield, implying even more versatility. Shad even did a video about shields being used offensively. IDK. Just ... this is refreshing.
Also, of all videos I've seen on TH-cam about the batleH, this one consistently demonstrated the best pronunciation of the word; better than the actors on the show, IMO. I have studied the language, attended the annual qep'a' (large meeting of the Klingon Language Institute) when it was held in the Chicgoland area, and appreciate this con-lang.
Since it's mostly shown in dueling and the fact that Klingons love to get close enough to bite your face off, I think it's not impractical.
Question: Pugil sticks are very similar in handling (length/offending ends) to a Bat'leth. I wonder if you're able to get anyone in your school who has knowledge sparring with Pugil Sticks to try and spar with practice Bat'leths? I would be interested in seeing if the skills carry over.
AIUI the pugil stick was invented to simulate a rifle/bayonet combo, so anyone practiced with a polearm that has pointy bits at both ends should be pretty good with a bat'leth.
Oh, I've been hoping for this one for ages! As others have mentioned, I'd love to see one of your and Tod's experimental videos on this, the mek'leth and the d'k tagh!
I always thought that the Bat’leth was under-rated having also studied Chinese and Okinawan martial arts in addition to American military swordsmanship. I don’t own any fantasy weapons but if I were to choose one to own and train with, the Bat’leth would be my choice. I have seen a trend among in the Star Wars fans of training the lightsaber as a martial art. I would venture to say that if a group of dedicated Star Trek fans started a group that is dedicated to training the Bat’leth, we may learn that its potential as a martial art is greater than most people give it credit for.
Those groups exist. :-)
@@jamielondon6436 Well there we go. I would be interested to see what techniques they come up with.
@@S.A.M.S.2017 I'd be surprised if none of them were on TH-cam …
Great video and all i ever wanted to hear about the bat'leth!
I always thought it was a weapon well suited for a klingon warrior. It is essentially a sharp and pointy barrier between you and your opponent which is great in close combat. That, along with its heaviness and "clumsiness" fits the klingon fighting style i imagine perfectly. It is also very intuitive to use and has multiple ways to be used which might be good when a klingon is too angry for precise fencing.
I actually thought about straightening the points as well but then you would have to rotate the weapon so much it would lose much of its defensive potential at that moment. The other point could also be used against the wearer.
I am glad you make me think about different sides of “weapons ideas”
I usually think the made up crap from sci-fi shows are useless nerd ideas and have no call to be in the conversation but you sir have always given me such great points of view here I am ... and agreed as usual... I love this show man. I want to buy you an ale some day
Blood Wine or Romulan Ale?
@@arnaudgerard1971 prune juice?
I had a customer once ask for a bath'leth. I explained him that I don't have access to baakonite composite (which is the special metal used in them). Nevertheless, I cut one out of 3mm steel and found it to be very very unwieldy. Then I cut one out of aluminium to mimic the props used on the set, and lo and behold, it's actually not a bad weapon. It's meant for a mobile person in active combat, it's not a static-swinging weapon. but you essentially have a shield in front of you; with spikes on either end to jab with. It struggles with spears; but it excells als closer range, and it allows you to close in much quicker then you expect. It would be better being straighter (2 horizontal spikes and 2 vertical spikes) and longer, but this would look less fancy ;-)
Steel blades, aluminum body maybe? Get the weight down to where someone can handle it without having to do years of strength training.
The problem I have with a Bat'Leth is edge alignment (or well, more like point algnment). The leverage of the blade in front of the hand makes it rather unwieldy I think.
That's what I thought too. Maybe Klingons have particularly strong wrists.
Yeah, but you get used to that pretty quickly.
@@chimaera4461In the fiction, an average Klingon is about twice as strong as an average human. They also have extra muscles and bones in their arms compared to us, so strong wrists are quite likely.
I've made very persuasive argument that this Sci-Fi weapon could be a realistically viable weapon. But the fact that this video was sponsored by a Star Trek online game kind of made the whole effort rather suspect. My apologies. Still you made quite a number of valid points. And I agree about your suggestion on how to improve the weapon. My opinion of this fantasy-weapon is that it's for Dueling rather than field warfare. The Earth weapons you compared the Bat'Leth to were used as dueling weapons among medieval knights. And since as you said it was designed from a Chinese martial arts perspective it could of been used as a military weapon but most likely as a one-on-one weapon in a martial Bout.
As others, including yourself have said. The Bat'Leth was used on board star ships, and in tight quarters, so you would not want a long weapon. I think even a longer sword would be impractical. I've always envisioned using one in a style of the short staff or Bo Staff, as some one else pointed out. The Bat'Leth is both weapon and shield, just like a staff. Keep up the good work.
Melee weapons on space ships make a lot of sense when you think of a species having space travel before they have the ability to prevent ranged weapons from punching holes in the ship.
according to that episode where dax goes on a suicide mission with the kang, kor, and koloth, a 116cm bat'leth is '5.3 kilos'. i chalk this up to the writers judging weapon weights by the dimensions of overbuilt stage props (similar to the way people used to believe medieval "broadswords" were 10-20 pounds)
I'd seen a number of those other weapons specialists who you've mentioned, and I actually have to agree with you on the fact that they didn't dive deeply enough into the the design elements of which the Bat'Leth was based on
I personally appreciate that you dove deeper into these design elements of what the Bat'Leth was based upon
Very much like martial arts. They are typically very good against a similar skill set but quite vulnerable against different martial arts depending on their foundations. (Boxing vs wrestling for example, or Karate against Jujitsu).
@@john-paulsilke893 or even Kung Fu vs. Muay Tai
glad he did this I always thought some of the people were criticising the weapon a little too much.
@@mikepette4422 yeah, for real
many years ago at a convention I watched attendees cosplaying the Duras sisters do a short kata with the Bat'leth before their main skit. As I remember it they used a lot of very close circular movements around and across the body. To me they most reminded me of the kind of cuts one would make to dissuade someone trying to get into grappling range and wrestling you.
So next up for completeness we need an episode on the Vulcan Lirpa, which has me thinking, especially the Amok Time version, of a very much shortened Monk's spade.
So I think it makes sense to conclude that Klingon hands were unarmored, and that targeting the hands was important enough to prioritize hand protection.
From a lot of sparring with Bat'leths, yes, the hands are a vulnerable point and most experienced swordsmen will target them eventually. But that is easier said than done because there is steel between the hands and the opponent. But is probably the single most effect tactic against the Bat'leth. So when using a Bat'leth, you should be aware of this.
Good video. The only question about the bat'leth I have left is how hard it would be to manufacture in historical Klingon times. Maybe Qo'Nos extruded plate steel from between it's tectonic plates or something or the Klingons developed an ancient way to make plate steel as all bat'leth that I recall from the shows look like they're carved from sheets of steel, even the "older" examples. Baring plate steel, I like to think of a more practical version of this would be inline with your improvements but I also think this weapon would greatly benefit from a wooden or similar inner handle to help with ease of manufacture, weight (especially if you enlarge the weapon), saving material ad saving forging time.
I remember they said in TNG that Klingons have multiple redundant organs, would their weapons need to do wider damage to the body as for example piercing their heart might not immediately kill them?
Also, if you think the sword has potential, how about the choreography they used in the shows?
I think they also have a complex ribcage structure, meaning it would likely take much more force to break through compared to a humans (or need more pointy bits to stab between the complex ribs. As far as the way that Worf uses it, his style reminds me a lot of Wu Shu. Lots of smooth and flowing moves that are almost as much style as they are combative.
I think the part where you mentioned armored fighting and showed the spiked shield duel picture drove the idea home most for me. I could really see the parallels with a Bat'Leth there.
Glad to see this! As a martial artist and trekkie myself I always thought the bat’leth was a good design. Picking one up and playing around with it I found that it seems to work well with Okinawan bo technique.
Because like a staff, you can use it to both attack and defend. So a Staff style of fighting makes sense.
Okinawan Bo is a very versatile set of styles, and many of the techniques work well with sticks of different lengths too.
but that technique sucks
@@annelively6932 lol, okay. Compared to what exactly? And why?
@@Lakikano all other techniques. from all evidence. i mean who the fuck right? jeez
Glad you made this video. I've had some of the same thoughts, I always thought of the martial style of the bat leth as similar to using a modern rifle with blade style bayonet. The user can use both sides to parry, slash, and stab. It's also a good design for fighting in the narrow passageways of a ship. I hadn't considered the ergonomic difference so that was cool.
I'm convinced the bat'leth evolved from a farming tool, and that the concave blade would have made it better suited for harvesting their version of wheat or whatever.
I'm they pretty much outright say it in the episode where they hunt for the Sword of Kahless. They mention he used the blade reap the field and to carve tools.
Also Kahless was notably of common blood so the idea that the bat'leth originated as some sort of farming tool makes more sense.
As far as the Bat'leth's intended use, I think there's an episode of DS9 where Worf gives some history on the weapon. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that old klingon weapons were far too agressive, and favored nothing but attack. This lead to wars where too many klingons died, because they were not focused on survival at all. So Kahless the Unforgettable designed a blade with defense in mind. The forward facing crescent was designed to catch incoming blades, parry, and counterattack much more effectively than previous klingon weapons. In addition Kahless created a new martial art to accompany the bat'leth that focused on defense, waiting for opportunities, counterattacks, and overall patience.
It's also important Bat'leth translates to "sword of honor." It's seen in Klingon culture as being the most honorable weapon to use. Other weapons, like disruptors, and the mek'leth (kind of like a knife or short sword maybe) are looked down upon as being more weapons of desperation, or by cowards.
Finally, someone who sees the value in the BAT'LETH
I expect a HEMA video soon of you bat'lething vs different swords
If you watch TNG you can clearly see it requires specific training to be proficient with it.
Yeah I really liked the design because it certainly looks alien, not like anything on earth (at least not the usual ones) but still looks like a reasonable weapon when you see how it’s used.
Q'plah!
Thank you so much for looking outside Europe for the comparisons. So many channels are too Euro-centric in their views.
Never really heard Matt talk about Star Trek before, and yet… I’ve always known he was a Trekkie. 😏
*cough*
trekker
@@bkane573 Well, I think you should wear your dishonor with pride. :)
Every time there is a knife amnesty there is the obligatory picture of a Bat'leth on display as one of the terrifying weapons that have been handed in.
From what I’ve seen of it’s use, the Bat’leth was designed to overcome a foe armed with a… bat’leth.
😁
Great video!
I think the weapon was envisioned to be a duelling weapon mostly for judicial fighting vs the same, it's also how it's often used in Star Trek.
For war or actual combat Klingons have guns and various types of Daggers. And we also see the odd times someone chooses to go into real combat with a culturally significant dueling weapon which doubtless happened in our real history sometimes. In that context it makes perfect sense.
I'd like to see larger ones meant for battlefield use in the series too like you mention, it would be cool especially if they explained it was the original design later adapted to cramped shipboard and duelling size.
I’ve always thought of it more as an axe you could parry with.
Hi Mr. Easton. Have you ever thought of doing an episode about weapons intended for execution? I for one would be fascinated to see it. Big fan.
I think Da'mon Stith would agree, I believe he's made some synthetics ones and played around with them (Purpleheart Armory has some too, I think?)
Outstanding weapon choice. Excellent review.
The real irony here is that the Bat' Leth is a very good defensive weapon
Not quiet oxymoron as shield for example is yet another type of defensive weapon
Hey, mat! So, I make fighting staffs and hiking sticks. One really peculiar staff, which I call the Elvish Battlestaff, that has three handles and is shaped very strangely. It has a curved lower shaft made from the branching of a tree trunk into it's top branches. The lower shaft is made from one branch, while the other branch was cut short to form the primary handle. That handle is in line with the point of the shaft. Both of these transition into the trunk of the felled tree. Coming off of that trunk are two additional handles, for a total of three handles. The handle closest to the top of the staff, sitting about 3 ish inches from the top, comes out at a 45 ish degree angle compared to the primary handle. This secondary handle is slightly off-center with the primary handle pitched to the left for it to be a left-handed handle, which allows you to multiply the force of a cut by applying forces to these two handles. It's kinda like a two-handed Tonfa.
The third handle is positioned about two inches up the triluno section that is 180 degrees rotated left of the primary handle. This third handle lets you push down with one handle and pull down with this one, allowing you to apply your back and core muscles into the stroke, giving it a mean strike. Hit me up and I'll send you a picture of it's configuration. It's a very unorthodox weapon, but is surprisingly easy to handle.
Good points all around. Personally, I've always loved the Bat'leth in principle, but had issues with it's execution. Most of the issues I see are the same ones I have with film/video game design in general and just took as artifacts of the exaggeration and haste inherent in that context. Weapons in media are almost always grossly out of proportion and crudely executed so they "read" better on screen and can be easily fabricated en masse, ergonomics be damned (there are exceptions). However, with some thought and nuance applied to the principle in profile, cross section, and balance, it would be glorious to wield. Probably a minor nightmare to produce, but that's an entirely different matter. Always wanted a nice pattern-welded one...