Why the Modern Sonic Stories Just Don't Work
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2018
- Prior to the Sonic Advance Retrospective last summer, I had been alienated by the turn the Sonic Series took in the 2010s, but still casually enjoyed the likes of Lost World or 4 Episode 2. Now that my interest in the series has been restored, I decided to give my take on why the series' stories have been so poor from my perspective in recent years, and explore what series had meant to me. Whether it be Generations, Lost World, or most recently, Forces.
- เกม
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"THAT WAS JUST A BUNCH OF CHEAP WALK CYCLES"
best summation of Sonic Forces ever
I'm guessing it could work with either the cutscenes being flat and uninteresting or the game as a whole being linear. Personally I sorta took it as a joke about the game itself being linear, which got a good laugh out of me.
SONIC BETRAYED US?!!!
SQWAK!!! What a rip-off!
Plus there's so much automation in Forces...
That joke had me dying!
“You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway.“
-Walt Disney
That is the main issue with a lot of the 2010’s Sonic stories, they talk down to their audience.
best quote
Ironic considering what Disney prioritizes now.
The only thing your implying is that the target audience of sonic should be reversed.
@@invader8491 No, it’s actually treat your audience with respect. The best children’s story authors follow this philosophy. Why else are Disney, Nintendo, Cn and Nickelodeon so successful and have a lot of adult fans?
@@RealHyperHedgehog facts so true the best Sonic games I still love Sonic adventure and Sonic adventure 2 hell Sonic heroes and even better Sonic unleashed did light hearted moments than recent Sonic games. I even go as far as I love Sonic 06 more than recent Sonic games.
Anyone remember E102-Gamma's story in Sonic Adventure? Genuinely a good story, even if it was simple.
yeah! he still is one of my favourite characters today because i liked his story and gameplay
It's funny how a Robot had more complexity than the entirety of the Sonic cast.
E-102*
It was awesome. That's how you do a side character.
E-102 Gamma gave me my 5th favorite character in the entire franchise after Tails.
I don't understand why people say Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 stories tried to take itself more seriously than it should. They don't. These games have dramatic moments, but they have funny moments as well.They are "Adventure" stories, not comedy stories, but there's nothing too dark or edgy on them. the only Sonic game that's too dark is the Shadow the Hedgehog game.
100% agreed
In retrospect, I came to appreciate the Adventure games story wise for how they nail a balance of lighthearted and high stakes while still being sincere about it. It's basically the step forward after Sonic 3 and its ambitious storytelling for early 90s 2D platformers.
Also in general, it's one of my favourite concepts as a storyteller/writer. Make a property that looks all goofy, sweet and comedy-driven on the outside only to subvert expectations by revealing the inside. That inside being something mature and serious that doesn't needlessly talk down to children.
Even then, Shadow the Hedgehog has better pacing than meta era.
Yes, those games are the best!!👍
@@ultrairrelevantnobody1862 I agree; I think that that's probably the perfect way to describe the tone of the Classic Sonic games as well; the idea of a cartoon blue hedgehog going fast and stopping an obese mechanical genius who stuffs small animals into robots sounds pretty goofy, and it is to some, but they still made it clear that Eggman (or Robotnik if you prefer, I don't) truly was a vile person and legitimate threat (especially in the first game for the former with Scrap Brain Zone and latter two with the Death Egg), which gave them some darker elements, not to mention the story of Sonic 3&K. When you think about, SA1 really does feel like an evolution to the Classics not just in the gameplay, but the story, which feels like they wanted to take it further than 3&K ever could've, and SA2 was clearly made to take what SA1 did right and run with it while removing what didn't, and that's definitely true with the story.
"If the characters don't take the story seriously, how am I supposed to do that"
Exactly, right on point!
Nobody is supposed to take a story about a blue talking hedgehog with superpowers seriously
Yes but the game acts like it’s super important, but the writing and characters don’t back it up.
An exception i can think of is devil may cry but on the whole yh i agree
Yep
that's how i feel about the star wars sequels. i hate that Poe has joked to the villains faces at the opening of ep 7 and 8 so far
The greatest atrocity is what Sonic Forces did to Tails’ character. They made him an absolute weakling who couldn’t defend himself without Sonic’s help, which spits on the character’s legacy
That was a thing since Unleashed fyi.
Tails 1999 facing up to the nuking of Station Square - It's up to me! I'm not scared, I'm not scared! I can DO this!
Tails 2019 facing up to Chaos 0 - Sonic, help me!!
to play devil's advocate here, I imagine watching the guy you look up to getting the shit beat out of him and then the entire world taken over would leave someone in a fairly emotionally vulnerable state. then again, that'd be giving the writing team too much credit
Sjono there’s a theory that tails was depressed about the war and had low self-esteem to fight chaos 4 but if this theory was true..SEGA/Sonic Team have depicted it so wrong :(
joweechao well in sa2 tails thought sonic had died and he was sad but he knew that he couldn’t give up and sonic would want him to finish what he started and then he kicked eggmans ass
Tails: How did you know it was a fake emerald?
Sonic: TAILS!
Robotnik: Because you just told me Fox Boy!
Admit it, this is the Dr. Robotnik we need nowadays, he was intimidating, and intelligent in Sonic Adventure 2. Cunning, and thinking ahead. Pretty much killed Sonic too, only reason he didn't is because he managed the impossible by using Chaos Control on a fake emerald.
Tails sounds really dumb, though.
Eggman*
@@TheSherriea1
Dr.Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik, then.
Or “You fool... away, before I make mincemeat out of you” from the end of Tails’ story in SA1. Definitely agree about eggman
@@SuperNardful He sounded menacing there
"Our main characters crack jokes that aren't even that funny and then explain them in obnoxious detail."
So Sonic Color's story is basically Family Guy.
I mean at least I can laugh at Family Guy
@@flipside2086 Even the bad episodes
I think Cadicarious put it best: "That's no excuse at all. There still has to be some sort of quality control with these things. Kids may be very easy to entertain, but they are not stupid, and this is just insulting."
They are stupid
@@EthanBradburyVlogs boi
The marketing vs the actual content of Sonic Forces was just like:
"Not gonna lie, they had us in the first half."
Holy **** finally people realise kids aren't just retards
AustinAKR Most of the time.
Black Knight wasn’t needlessly edgy. The storybook series as a whole was very interesting as I’ve seen, as it throws sonic into different stories with their own twists. Edgy stories are fine as long as they aren’t botched like forces
black knight’s characterization of sonic is so fucking good and it’s a spin off game. it makes me wanna cry ngl. unleashed is the best mainline characterization weve seen for sonic though
@@deanmoriarty6015 Fuck yes, I occasionally go back and watch all the cutscenes on YT. Can confirm Satbk had one of the best stories.
The storybook series was an interesting idea, too bad that it was cut short.
Black Knight is probably the most underrated Sonic game. I loved it.
I may have disliked the gameplay initially but the stories themselves? They were pretty badass. I loved what they tried to do and even if they're generally seen as meh games, I wish there had been a third one to wrap things up. Like how cool would it have been if we had gotten one set in Ancient Greece, built around Greek mythology with Sonic as the embodiment of Hermes? One can only dream.
"Tails Acted For The Greater Good,Lets Make Sure His Sacrifice Isn't For Nothing"
WTF
Yup, isnt that dumb?
ikr I was "whaa?"
yeah, that actually made no sense
That line had me dying with laughter. There's just something about how he says it and the timing of when he says it
@@gamingtmans6692 it’s so over dramatic and over the top 😂
I applaud your honesty with the disappointment surrounding modern sonic stories being dumbed down to the point of absolute boredom. There is no drama or stakes being raised as you go through the gimmick of the game and lose interest in the plot. Sonic adventure series had their issues but god damn were they high stakes. A memorable moment for me in SA2 is when after fighting Shadow on prison island, the cutscene has eggman angrily announce that the island was set to blow up and sonic has this "Oh shit!!! Gotta find amy and tails!!!!" moment Like, you felt for Sonic in that instant of panic and immediate goal of getting the hell out of dodge. Green forest's upbeat soundtrack as you rush through the level with that blaring yellow timer at the top ticking away was absolutely iconic.
That’s kind of the reason why I prefer the Super Mario RPG’s (The old ones) instead of The mainstream Mario games. While I grew up and still love the mainstream Mario games, it’s more or less just been the same “Bowser kidnapped the Princess” routine, so besides games like Galaxy or Odyssey, there’s no real stakes being raised because we know Mario’s gonna win regardless because we’ve done it before. Now I’m not gonna pretend that games like Paper Mario TTYD, Super Paper Mario, M&L: Partners In Time, or M&L: Bowser’s Inside Story have the same “The Princess has been captured” cliche, but DAMN were there high stakes! Because it gave us more motivation to stop the villains other than the Princess has been kidnapped again, The Shadow Queen’s awakening, The Void consuming all, and Cackletta and Fawful taking over the world were a great driving force and they had some serious tones but it never stepped itself away from kiddy light-hearted comedy or fluff and never took itself too comedic to the point where it becomes boring or too serious to the point where it becomes too needlessly edgy. Oh and let’s never forget the awesomeness of Super Mario RPG: The Secret Of The Seven Stars (also their self-awareness jokes are much more well done than Sonic Lost World)
@Amy : I'm going to ask Sonic for a date. What you gonna do about it???
I remember being genuinely scared when playin through Green Forest for the first time. Like, if my goal shifted from anything other than "get to the goal ASAP" everything would blow. Little did little me know that the time they give you is plenty to get through the level and get all the stuff
Honestly I feel the same way when I finished forces I felt...... nothing unlike in adventure 2 or heck even 06 cuz ATLEAST in 06 they acted like themselves and shadow had a really good story in 06 even later on in unleashed that had a good narrative despite it being more light hearted it’s disappointing as someone who’s been playing sonic as far back as I can remember
@@PoochieCollins Bruh
Not gonna lie, "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me!" still makes me chuckle.
BigBossMan538 watch out m8, you may get some flack for saying that.
It's still the best thing Roger Craig Smith has said as Sonic
Unlike Sonic I don’t chuckle
BigBossMan538 so dumb
Leopold Litchenstein personally, I prefer: “Oh hey, sounds like the party's started. Want to let me go and join in? No? Of course not, you hate fun.”
Is it bad that I want to see more of that scary side to Eggman? I understand why people enjoy him as a goofy villain, but without moments like him threatening the Zetis, he becomes less of a villain and more of a nuisance.
The reason he's a cool villain is cause he's goofy but he can do a complete 180 and scare the absolute shit out if you with how dark he can get
Nope, it's not bad. I want it too.
The last time for me that Eggman was truly threatening was when he destroyed the world in Sonic Unleashed.
Watch the animated series. That's only time Eggman is actually scary.
@@obd9660 unleashed and adventure games are a great mixture of a evil and silly eggman.
One thing Heroes was pretty underrated in was was Team Dark's development. I didn't fully appreciate it as a kid, but the Trio does grow from the whole experience. Shadow and Rouge weren't really "friends" for most of SA2 until the final arc but rather villains with a common goal, with their development being more focused to their growing respect to their in-game hero rivals. In Sonic Heroes, Rouge gives Shadow (and Omega) stars off by giving new purpose which happens to benefit her, and by the end she genuinely seems concerned about shadow when he sees his robo-clones in the train station and the later scene with her and Omega in the Egg Carrier.
Shadow and Omega's relationship is equally endearing. In the short cutscenes which kickstart each level in Heroes, it start with Omega threatening Shadow not the distract him and Shadow telling Omega to keep up with him (Basically a more extreme version of Sonic and Knuckles butting buddies relation). Contrast this to how Omega treats him at the end.
Now we just don't get Team Dark being friends. Them and everyone else is just Background, with Tails' development having been completelly done away with
Oh man did they butcher Team Dark. I hate that people think they are Edgelords and how they always write them as assholes. Even in 06 these three had great development together.
IMO, here are some good depictions for Shadow:
-SA2
-Battle
-Heroes
-SX (Sonic X) anime
-'06
-Black Knight (since he was a playable character)
And here are the worst depictions:
-Generations (he's just a cheerleader)
-Boom
-IDW (it's not Ian Flynn's fault)
-TSR
@@tiruliru1189 06 was ironically the worst for everyone but team dark
@@tiruliru1189 I’d say Shadows own game should be on the worst depictions list. That fuc*ing game is the reason he became a joke and edgelord (because Izuka wrote it and not Shadows creator Shiro Maekawa, and Izuka decided to butcher the character).
@@Puyopuyotsu Ik this was a year ago but whatever. I think they did a good job with Silver and his story. He is driven to save his world and make the world a better place, but he is also naive. And him having to sacrifice Blaze and defeating Iblis was a pretty good moment and completely changed him.
"Tails acted for the greater good. Let's make sure that his sacrifice isn't for nothing."
LMAO
Kind of unrelated but I just imagined Tails saying, "L+ ratio" or something like that in the next Sonic game.
Given how he said "True Dat" in Forces, I won't be surprised lmao.
@@undeadbatman9762 I'd actually laugh. I would not be able to hold back
The deadly six look like they're from a completely different franchise.
The day they appeared, I didn't like them. Same goes for super mario odyssey rabbits.
They looked like the came out of Space Jam.
Which is another reason why The Deadly Six made Sonic Lost World less than good.
@@Asakedia Oddysey rabbits? The fuck do you mean?
Oliver Xu The Broodals
i find sad that, nowadays, memes are mainly being used as a scapegoat to the series' status. "What's this? Fans are losing hope on the franchise? Let's just throw another Big The Cat meme!". It used to be cute, at first, but now it's plain desperate. No wonder most outsiders look to the franchise as a joke. People like to blame stuff like IGN, Game Grumps or Projared for this, but barely ever pay attention to the circus that is Sonic's social media.
P.sure only Sonic’s zoomer fans care about that
I kind of miss when games used to take themselves seriously and not mindlessly pander to fans with nostalgia and memes up the ass. The series is now becoming AOSTH and yes even Forces has these elements as painful as it is to say that. But the games aren't supposed to be AOSTH. They are meant to be their own thing. When I see Orbot and Cubot I just see the robotic chicken and mole minions from AOSTH. They are dumb idiot comic relief villains that serve Robotnik. Need I say more.
Yeah, about projared...
@@Lucas-dy5mt
His career is now a dumpster fire.
@@warioland523 broken marriage/10
Sonic Pre-2010: Adventurous, brave, caring and occasionally wisecracking.
Sonic now: Bored frat boy.
Until Sonic Frontiers, they bringing back 2000s instead of 2010s.
I also don't like how they shove green hill zone up our faces.
Sonic forces spoil
Green Hill Zone dies .
"heY gUYs, rEmEMbeR tHiS???!?!"
poisson multi-taches “Green Hills looking more like Sand Hill right now!”
To be honets thanks to that im kinda hating that level. I mean its not bad its just overused and kinda annoying in a way.
In SA2 it was understandable. We hadn't seen it in 3d yet and it's the first time they ever did that. Even in generations I can completely understand. In every other game it's completely unnecessary.
Modern Sonic stories can work. They just need to be handled better.
I must respectful disagree. Boom is very immature and annoying. The Archie and IDW sonic comics are better.
@The main cause of warps in all of reality we because i did too.
Also fire everyone and hire actaul pros who know what they are doing and don't rush them and leave them too it also make sure they are very familiar with the seires as a whole.
Exactly. And need to be written better.
Nah, adventure arc needs to come back.
i legit would rather have the tryhard story of 06 instead of any story from the recent games
That bad, huh?
They say people don't know what they want until they get it.
unpopular opinion: 06 is the best sonic game.
@@dapperfan44 I agree a sonic 06 story would be bad
@@chkavm2988 It's at least my 3rd favorite with Colours and the first game being at top. Without Sonic '06, Blaze and Silver wouldn't be in the games or at least their universe wouldn't and I adore the changed tone and theme the games had at the time following Shadow the Hedgehog's foot steps
I think sonic 06 was the make or break, if that game worked and wasn't rushed it'd be considered the best sonic game and the whole franchise would be completely different
I think that if they gave that game more development time (at least a year) and spent that time polishing the gameplay, not try-harding so much with the story, and maybe just eliminating Elise from the story entirely, the game, as you said, would've been revered as the best Sonic game of all time and sent the series down a path for the better.
Basically, if they didn't rush it for a holiday release, it could've been much better to say the least.
@@JohnSmith-mk5jt definitely, they should've just been realistic and disregarded the holiday release becuase the positive financial impact of releasing on a holiday is far outweighed by the negative impact of releasing a broken game
@@JohnSmith-mk5jt agreed
Agreed. I genuinely believe the franchise would’ve probably still been as relevant and loved as the Mario franchise still is if 06 was a great game, but the game made the franchise hit rock bottom.
@@Kingnorm04 I wouldn't say as relevant as Mario, but it would definitely be better than it is now, by the time 06 came out, Sega's last console failed, making them have to put out their games onto other platforms.
Heck. If the movie has proven anything you can do a lighthearted story that people enjoy without being meta
That's why people love Kung fu Panda and Shrek (2 specifically)
@@sezunemizuhana3870 shrek and kung fu panda had darker and more ambitious memes than the sonic movies as silly as they look or feel
@@arturocastroverde3349 Yup, but considering Sonic Movie is live-action/CGI Hollywood movie this is one of the best options we could have gotten
@@sezunemizuhana3870 kung-fu panda 2 literally starts with a genocide
Im kinda amazed how quickly people's opinion on the movie changed.
It's refreshing at this point to hear someone criticize modern Sonic from a place of love, and without using Sonic Mania as a platform to bash anything that came out after Sonic 3.
Agreed
Holy shit, yes. It's not Mania fault, but I cannot stand how so many people are so quick to use it as a platform to bash other Sonic games.
What “platform” means in this case is “excuse”. And this is exactly why I’m a fan of this video!!
Exactly!
Just a little correction
"Without using Mania as a platform to bash anything that came out after Sonic *2* ", people who suck dry the classic games and Sonic Mania forget that Sonic 3 exists
It seems SEGA took all the wrong lessons from 06. They thought the reason people hated the story was it was too dark not because it was riddled with plot holes and Shadow was the only character with a brain and in character.
They thought the reason we hated the multiple gameplay styles was because we hated the characters so they reduced everybody except Sonic to a cheerleader when the real problem is none of the styles were fleshed our or fun. They went too far in the other direction
They thought people didn’t like 06’s gameplay because of the exploration factor when we hated it for being a buggy, piss poor controlling mess.
I’m not exaggerating I recall a Nintendo Power interview with Izuka around the release of Sonic Colors where he said Sonic Team regretted the Wearhog and Swordplay: but with the way he worded it he seemed to under the impression the very concept was the problem not the execution.
And they missed the biggest lesson of all. Don’t release a game before it’s ready. They forced big red button to rebuild Rise of Lyric from scratch on the Wii U and refused the change the release date. On top of that if reports are true 2.5 years of Sonic Forces 3.5-4 year development was spent on the new lighting engine rather than making the actual game. And to add insult to injury the lighting engine makes the game look worse than Sonic Unleashed a game released NINE YEARS AGO on weaker hardware!
I actually like 06s story tbh.
The Iranian Liberal different strokes for different folks I guess
Completely agree with ya! I haven't played all the sonic games but when I played sonic unleashed, the graphics were beautiful and I was expecting an amazing game because the whole idea of a werewolf sonic was cool... but the gameplay wasn't and I don't know how they couldn't' see it unless they just didn't play their own game.
Nice work on exposing the false contrasts Sega made going from Sonic 06 to Colors! Oh, and that Nintendo Power interview sounds so unfortunate. Like, I get they're listening to the fans but they really need to learn how to prioritize what elements are essential for a good game
Umar Tahir and the Sonic community is so fractured for every fan they please there will be 1 or 2 they piss off
Trying to tell a joke every five seconds is one problem.
I think it's fine to throw in some clever jokes or puns every once in a while. Just make sure they're actually good and like you said, don't do them EVERY FIVE SECONDS
@@louiepikmin3184 IKR!
Other is fans with way too different opinions on what Sonic is
@@joaofilipegracaferreira7375 that too
There's nothing wrong with telling jokes every five seconds... if it's a ZAZ movie. But ZAZ movies were like that from the start - The Naked Gun didn't start out as a serious detective yarn, it was a parody through and through. And also ZAZ movies were consistent with their characters and their world, as absurd as it was.
Also they were actually goddamn funny.
I genuinely believe Sonic & The Black Knight was the last sonic game with a great story, writing, and villain. Sonic stories has always been one of the main things I’ve loved about the games and I feel like great stories has been missing from the series since that game.
Forces seemed promising at first but it ended up being the biggest disappointment in sonic history. Hell, even if 06’s story had issues, it still wasn’t terrible like the games today. I actually feel like 06 was the game that perfectly nailed Shadow’s character development after the events of Shadow The Hedgehog. It seemed like a natural evolution of his character unlike the whole “Arrogant Rival” personality they’re giving him now that makes him feel like a discount Vegeta. I feel like if the whole Elise romance thing was removed, 06’s story would’ve been better received and just overall greater.
I feel like the best thing to do is to hire Ian Flynn, the writer of the IDW comics, to write the story for the games. I’ve read the IDW comics up to now and they have everything that sonic stories now are lacking. High stakes, great characters (no more beta male tails who’s scared of chaos 0 like in forces), great dialogue, and overall great writing that’s much superior to the games now.
Even if they don’t hire him, maybe there is a glimmer of hope for sonic stories, since they got rid of the old writers responsible for writing Forces. I’ll try to stay optimistic but I’m seriously hoping we don’t get trash like Forces.
EDIT: This aged well. Ian Flynn was confirmed as the writer for Sonic Frontiers.
I have no faith in sega. I hope that shadow is not the arrogant rival in the next game
well... better late than never... I do wonder what Ian's take on the stories would be like if he did get a chance to write the stories sooner...
I pray Ian Flynn wasn't the main reason the story was bad.
Me too I always loved Sonic stories.
The Sonic series problem seems to be that Sega just doesn't give a shit anymore. The Sonic games sell regardless of quality so there's no incentive to put forth the effort into making good ones--Sonic Team attempted to do something interesting with 06, but Sega rushed it out for the 15th Anniversary and consequently it was an unfinished mess.
Sonic Boom's concept art shows that BRB initially had a very ambitious and potentially solid game on paper, but then Sega forced them to develop it exclusively for Wii U when Cryengine wasn't supported on that system, and the results a disaster.
Colors and generations have a good gameplay loop but they're just empty and/or annoying as stories. It's like Sega never lets the developer have enough time to make a sonic game polished all around, save for Sonic Mania.
Can you imagine if Nintendo was as careless with Mario as Sega is which Sonic?
I think a big part of it is them not knowing how to approach the series in a 3D space. They had something going for the Adventure games, they just needed more polish and less filler gameplay styles. But that was ruined with 06. Then they had something else with the Boost gameplay in Unleashed, and made some steps to evolving it in Generations, nearly perfecting it, and possibly even leading to more sandbox styled Sonic games, only to take so many steps back with Forces. The Sonic franchise changes gameplay styles more than a girl changes clothes, so instead of letting something stick and polishing it to the best it can be, they end up throwing ideas at a wall, and never having the guts to just go all out with a game. Lost World, I can commend them for, as they basically predicted that people were probably sick of the Boost formula, but they STILL didn't allow that game to reach its full potential because of the tube level design, 2D sections, and the weird gravity stuff.
Ben English If only Sonic '06 had an extra year in the oven, it could have been something better
I've never been a big fan of Colors and Generations, I felt Unleashed handled the boost gameplay far better, personally. However I can't deny the positive effect it had on Sonic in general, and I definitely agree on SEGA's poor handling of their property. Sonic Team has these ideas of what they want to do, and a lot of them are interesting, but the man upstairs just rushes it out as fast as possible, and while I've enjoyed a lot of the titles many look down upon, this frustrates me to no end.
Generations was never really meant for a big story. It was meant for a big celebration for the 20th Anniversary with two different Sonics in one game and previous Stages.
That's debatable. Just because it was a celebration of the 20th anniversary doesn't mean a big story couldn't have been told. They just took the laziest route possible by not doing anything with the premise they set up.
SA2's ending was the pinnacle of sonic games for me, a very original style to it and story that felt like no other, combined with fun gameplay and interesting characters
@@NintendoDude888 Listen here, I''m a Gamer and a real Gamer knows that SA2's ending was awesome. It's a Gamer Fact.
@@NintendoDude888 it's a Gamer Fact buddy.
GamingGuy800 How are the flashbacks pointless? there meant to give context to the incident on the Ark that fueled Dr. Robotniks vengeance against humanity as well as Shadow characterization.
GamingGuy800 Says the Soniclieber.
GamingGuy800 do you not appreciate a good story?
In my opinion the last sonic game with a good ending and story was black knight it had a good moral of living life to the fullest also it had a good story in between
In your opinion? Bro thats a fact lol.
But jokes aside, Yeah I agree. After Black Knight, Sonic games felt.....pointless for me. The only game I can forgive after BK for not having a decent story is Gens.
Others were full of cringe and had NO excuse for such an Stupid writing imo.
That's because Sonic has matured and became wiser, until the 2010s writers removed that and made him immature and not wise.
What about Colors DS?
Every world has its ends, i know this is sad but thats why we live our lives to the fullest, well thats what i think -Sonic (sonic and the black knight)
😂😂😂😂baldy nosehair!!! Thats the best thing i heard all day -sonic(sonic colors)
sonic lost worlds makes the story of sonic 06 look good💀
It is, more emotional and truly sad.
Debatable, I’ve seen people call Sonic 06 the sonic game with the best story
@@zaikage386 those people are either trolls or degenerates. i try to respect opinions, but jesus christ.
@@starlightrains *Why do I feel attacked because I think that sonic 06 has one of the best stories?*
@@Tara191 Sonic 06 actually has a great idea for a set story and in some parts really works, but there were the issues that plagued the game and made it bad, it's just a game with lost potential.
I miss what Sonic was like before Roger Craig Smith took over, SEGA removed Sonic's good things about himself--he may be cocky, silly, and a smartass, but knows when to be serious, acted nice towards others, especially Tails--who's been a little brother to him since Sonic 2.
I want the writers to give Sonic's true blue personality back.
WerehogFan18 I also miss hearing Ryan Drummond voicing Sonic.
@@SuperSonicWarrior93 I miss ALL of the SA1 cast. Even though many of them can't physically reprise their roles for various reasons. They might've not turned in the most sterling performances, but that was never on them-they honestly tried and it showed. And the sounds of their voices were DEAD. FUCKING. CENTER. They just needed better material: less generic and redundant.
Well, it WAS on you if you were playing an Echidna. :
Carbon Roller Caco They got better in SA2 and Heroes.
@@SuperSonicWarrior93 Well, duh; they'd gotten that better material.
Carbon Roller Caco I didn't say that to point the obvious. I say that as further proof that SEGA should've really held on to that cast.
I am so sick of Sega's self-deprecation. Making self aware jokes in an attempt to poke fun instead of actually focusing on improving on storytelling, worldbuilding and gameplay does not fix Sonic's problems.
Just like how making Sonic be the end all be all solution and having him save the day alone vs. a guardian of a powerful gem, government spies, a detective team, other superpowered characters, and normal people who can keep up with Sonic being shoved to the side and not contributing to the plot in any way, shape or form. Fans kept complaining about "Sonikku's Dumb Friends" and Sega takes this too seriously to the point no one else gets to have their moment to shine or be developed; now they are useless because they can't even be active or morons start complaining about their existence. Even Tails gets shafted now (Chaos 0 in Sonic Forces ring a bell?) It's become a vicious cycle that needs to stop ASAP.
They took Sonic and made him Goku
Sonic has been going downhill and can’t be taken seriously anymore. RIP THE “SERIOUS DRAMATIC SONIC ERA” 1999-2006
I hate self aware jokes in general. You aren't trying to fix problems, you're telling people that you think your actions are jokes.
That's pretty much why I hate Game Theory. He even has a video where he says that you shouldn't actually take his theories seriously. If they aren't theories, what are they? Clickbait?
@@lamegamertime for fun
@@tlk2ty That's what some conspiracy theorists say about *their own* conspiracies. Specifically the one about how "You accidentally swapped timelines." The person who made it says "It's just fun to think about." You can't act serious and then say "It's just a prank bro!"
If I was a head writer at Sega I'd write off the 2010s era of Sonic as non canon and return to the kind of storytelling seen in the Adventure games and Black Knight.
Sega would never do that because they're allergic to good decisions.
I respect that decision, but can you at least bring some characters from that era and make them good? Because there is missed potential in the 2010s games too. Time Eater has a cool design but is terrible as a character and he needs a good backstory (being a fragment of Solaris would be very cool). And Infinite also has a cool design but has a shitty backstory and a shitty character.
@@undeadbatman9762 Oh for sure. There are characters I genuinely had interest in like the ones you mentioned but the awful writing is what ruined it. With Pontac and Graff gone I really hope they step up their game in the storytelling department.
@@megaman15ish Agreed
@@megaman15ish Could you also give a better version of 06?
The darker stories of Sonic can work if they’re executed properly. Sonic Unleashed was proof of that if handled well. I would honestly consider it to be the be one of the most well written Sonic stories that we’ve had to date.
Great speech on Sonic Unleashed HD!!
Adventure, Adventure 2, 06, and Black Knight's were better executed.
sonic unleashed wasnt that dark, but i felt it was how to execute a more light-hearted story while still not dumbing down the charicters.
Secret Rings too. And Frontiers too now.
@@jimjoejoebibijon8362 I mean... Sonic were more reserved in Unleashed... That was darker for the story...
".....I was too slow to save my buddy."
Can we get the "You're too slow" taunt after that line?
PLC The Legacy yes. You're too slow.
No just edit "im" in with "too slow"
Would be a sick way for Eggman to answer Sonic's shitty one liners
@@justbny9278 it would be cool if they acknowledged that sonic was kind of an asshole and slowly he turned into that comic super sonic and you thought his reason for being bad was a little reasonable but you thought he shouldn't be getting mad at his friends for abandoning him,eventually making him turn to be friends with metal and you fight sonics friends but still save animals from eggman.lemme go write this down and edit it so I can post it back to you where it looks better and I don't sound like some 13 year old girl giving a shitty school report
@@TheReZisTLust i'm not im You idiot!
This series's plot situation is like a dad laughing while mocking his son that is trying so hard to impress him
Victor Vallim thanks
The line of thinking that Sonic games stories don't matter and that they're an expendable aspect of the games annoys me greatly.
There is nothing taboo about the concept of a story in a Sonic game. If you're going to point the finger at something that renders a story stupid in a Sonic game, point it at poor storytelling, plot holes, shallow plots, flanderization and other cases of OoC behavior. Not the basic concept of there being a story in the first place.
Stories are the backbone that motivates the characters to do what they do. It gives them direction, it gives them purpose, It can serve to give them depth. And it's just mind boggling to me personally that something that can serve to enhance the overall entertainment factor, emotional connection, and memorability of a game can be considered so expendable.
Like how the fuck else do you think Sonic still has such a strong cult following after all of his missteps like the "dark age"? Do you still think it's a mystery of how Shadow the Hedgehog outclassed the likes of even Tails and Eggman in popularity? How does Silver The Hedgehog still has more fans and is generally more liked than the Zetis despite debuting in a bad game?
I can answer those too last ones. Cause they were cool characters, not because of the stories.
@@captainmega6310 And don't their stories contribute their coolness?
@@yungmuney5903 Absolutely not Sliver, Shadow is arguable
I really don't think I would like Sonic as much as I do if the stories in those games didn't have the heart that they did.
Even if the gameplay was 10 times better.
Think that's why the meta era is so disappointing to me.
@@rennyforyourthoughts8023 Same here.
13:36 After the "That was cool" joke, Tails' expression perfectly describes what everyone is thinking while watching it.
Even Orbot and Eggman are like
"Damn bro, you've got the whole squad laughin."
Sonic Battle for crying out loud a good dramatic story with both light hearted elements and serious moments. And tied them together perfectly.
And this was a GAME BOY game.
The characters acted very much like themselves too.
well.. its game boy advance but it doesn't matter
Truth !
NO-
James Belmore the Nostalgia Kid Yes, you idiot
It's one of my favorite Sonic stories, every time I see the ending I come close to shedding a few tears. I also highly agree on how the characters' personalities are done correctly, even Amy I guess. From Sonic and Tails all the way to even Shadow and Cream, especially Cream.
Cream had some character development in this game along with Emerl of course. She basically learned that sometimes there will be those times that she needs to fight back, for both her and her friends safety, some bad guys deserve the punishment (and boy oh boy, Cheese is a huge one for foes).
I enjoyed every second of that game's plot (excluding Rouge's story) and I'm glad Advance 3 slightly expanded upon it by having Gmerl have his predecessor's data.
I like how during SA2's final boss, Super Sonic asks Shadow if he's okay, hinting that he was losing energy too fast and might not survive. It helps set up Shadow's sacrifice by making you think, "Why does Sonic sound so concerned?"
Alternate title: Why Pontac and Graff are terrible writers for Sonic
Lost World was the only game they directly wrote they just handled the localization of the rest
@@skibot9974 and that one was awful
Their doing such a awful job at locailzation too
@@basilplushie2534 not denying that but it’s not like Forces and Colors had stories that were much better in Japan
I have an irrationally deep hatred for Lost World. The writing’s terrible, the story’s not great, the characters are either derailed or bland, and from what I’ve heard, the gameplay is mediocre.
Also, I just want to point out that Lost World kicked off the trend of writing Tails outrageously out of character. I think everyone can agree that Tails is NOT an arrogant person. His character development in the Adventure games made him confident and independent, but his humility despite his superior intelligence is a core part of his character. That’s why it’s so jarring and frustrating to hear him brag about how smart he is in Lost World. Sorry to rant, but can they just write Tails (and Sonic for that matter) well again? I’m a diehard Sonic fan that’s exhausted of the Meta Era and tired of Sega not making Sonic as great as we know it can be.
How exactly can you bitterly despise something without ever even having played it
@@SchmuckAmok It is one thing to hate the GAMEPLAY of a game you never played. It is a completely different thing to hate a STORY that you DON'T need gameplay to experience. Seriously, when are people going to realize that story and gameplay are two different parts of a game and CAN be analyzed on their own?
Yes, sometimes you have the Story explain the gameplay, but you RARELY have the gameplay explain the story, gameplay can only have so much influence over the story of a game. In short: You don't need to play a game to be able to understand the OVERALL story, if you want the finer details, sure, *then* you need to play the game to fully appreciate it in its "complete" form. *However* , just having a general understanding of the story and how it's written is more than enough for someone to be able to criticize it.
It's so sad too because I feel like that game had really great animation when it comes to gameplay, I'd even argue that it might be the best (remember I'm talking about gameplay not cutscenes)
I hate how it has a run button
Sonic Lost World disappointed me so much I stopped playing Sonic games and engaging with the fandom for a long time.
I think the best way to summarize this video is that the earlier games (whether they be Genesis or "dark age") had heart that is just...lacking in Lost World especially.
It left me which such a weird empty feeling inside I wasn't used to, even with the not-so-great Sonic games, it's hard to describe.
Can i just say, Mike Pollock is great, he knows how to deliver even the worst lines in a memorable way, and he is genuinely one of the few things worth watching in sonic stories.
Star Scornius Nahhh He's so damn overrated. Pollock ceased to be good at Eggman after Unleashed. He just sounds so phoned in like he's just making clownish noises at the microphone. He was so forgettable in Forces.
Honestly, Clancy Brown and Jim Cummings doing a Deem Bristow impression would be so much better.
I like Mike Pollock enough, but Deem Bristow will always be my Robotnik.
Megaturtle1012 Honestly, Pollock needs to go.
Sega won't let him go. Or at least not for a very long time.
Megaturtle1012 Then I'll wait till he kicks the bucket lol
This video brought a tear to my eye, not gonna lie. The whole video went over my exact thoughts on the stories and what made them special before and why they’re so bad now. I’m sincerely hoping SEGA and Sonic Team gets a new team on the story, writing, cutscene animation, and voice acting to make a story that at least makes you care and make’s Sonic cool again.
In my opinion they just need to get new English and japanese writers that have an understanding of the Sonic characters.
@Star, Sonic Adventure 2 was complete shit story-wise. Why do people praise it??
Justin Stewart It was complex for Sonic story standards and was a tragic backstory that made us care for the new character (Shadow). Also, I like the story because the characterization of all the characters was on point.
If that's complex, I hate to see your standard for simple.
Kye Dysarthria I said “complex for Sonic story standards.” It’s definitely not a masterpiece but it was a deep enough story to get invested in and make us care for the characters like Shadow.
When i watch JebTube's video called "farewell Sonic", i started to realize that this franchise is on a worse state that i ever thought back then, how the hell does Sega approves this? How in the fucking hell can you degrade your own mascot like this? And yes, you can bring to the table what Capcom and Namco made to Megaman and Pac-Man respectively with Megaman being dead and almost forgotten by the company and Pac-Man turning into an unfunny kids show but at least they were trying, Sega with Sonic is just terrible. Sonic is more annoying than ever, Tails is a fucking pussy, Knuckles has lost 99% of his braincells, Shadow has become the "ow the edge" character, Amy turned into a freaking feminist, Eggman is a joke, literally the whole cast has been flanderized to the limit, the world building has stopped and now it's just random things happening, the level design is more and more mediocre, and let's not talk about the writing. The memes and nostalgia this franchise now relies have been elevated to an unhealthy level, every time i see Green Hill i want to cut my balls, every time i see classic Sonic i want to know who thought this was a good idea, every time i see the Wisps it's a pain in the ass, and the memes? We literally got a Forces DLC for a Sanic t-shirt and because of the memes, the writing is just pathetic with jokes like "BaldiMcNoseHair".
Seriously, i want the games to be good again, i want the writing to not just be unfunny jokes. Give us the Sonic we love, the Sonic who loves adventure and wants to save the world while staying cool. Give us the Tails who is an inventor but he also wants to be like Sonic but not live under his shadow. Give us the Knuckles who is the last of his species and questions why he was destined to guard the Master Emerald. Give us the Shadow who wanted to accomplish the wishes of his fallen friend Maria of protecting humanity. Give us the Amy who was tired of her normal life and just wanted the respect of Sonic. Give us the Eggman who was actually threating to the point of blowing up the moon, separating a whole world in pieces and making weapons of mass destruction but also was able to team up with Sonic when something goes out of his control.
And for god's sake, kill classic Sonic and never touch it again, the best thing about the past is the hability of remember it and learn from it, not cash from it just because you think that's the only good thing about this series, stop looking towards the past and better start looking towards the future in order to save Sonic from the hole he is in.
Make Sonic good again, nothing else, Sega (and bring back Jet Set Radio).
God i would kill for jet set radio to make a comeback
You're so fucking right man
You are so right, my man. The dark age was 2010-2019 at this point.
Frontiers is HERE !!!!!!!!
I genuinely think the "meta" era (the one starting with Colors) is the actual dark age of Sonic. If people call the modern era (from Shadow and Sonic 06 until Unleashed and Black Knight) the dark age, then I believe the meta era is in something even more abysmal and darker than modern.
The modern era has its lowest points on many subjects, like Shadow and 06, but the meta era goes even lower than that with Boom, Lost World and Forces.
Yeah
I'm one of people loving Shadow and 06, so...
I find it hilarious that mania, a game with barely any story, has a better story than forces. That’s just sad Sega and not only is mania overall better than forces, MANIA WASNT EVEN MADE BY SEGA! IT WAS MADE BY FANS!
It was published by Sega, so yeah, Sega had a hand in it.
Steven Kadap 06 has a bad story......black knight on the other hand
its a fact most would disagree with you on this one... 06 is a steaming pile of shit, load screen after load screen, totally garbage levels that had more bugs than Oogie Boogie and hes a big bag of bugs!
Steven Kadap what's so good about the classic games story wise is because it's simple, nothing too complicated, nothing bland just simple
i'll answer that by asking you a question, whats so good about the modern games stories? they mostly suck arse and make no sense or trail off with no real satisfaction...
i mean, look at forces, Infinite was an immediate threat, with lots of POTENTIAL, but it fell on its arse at the end he just goes away, how can that be a good story?
what im getting at is this, how can you criticise one era of games without explaining why the newer era is "good"
I just want Sonic stories that are competently written again, that keep the characters, story, and world internally consistent, and builds onto them in a meaningful way. Whether it's light hearted or dark, that's all I want. (by light hearted I don't mean detached, self-deprecating meta cringe comedy)
Ruby of Blue agreed
why do you hate sonic boom cartoon ?
Basically SA2
Nice paragraph of cringe but No u
@@sonicgenesisadventures pretty much. Yeah
I prefer the more light-hearted Sonic games, but that doesn't mean that I could not appreciate a more serious tone. It kind worked well in SA2, for example.
Just look at Mario & Luigi. Those games are still very light-hearted and fun, but they also have rather well written and interesting stories and usually even really awesome final boss battles, complete with great music and an overall very epic tone. Why does it work with Mario but not with Sonic?
Let's take a look at M&L3 for example: Sure, the game is bright and colorful and has a very light-hearted overall tone, but it also has great characters. Fawful is actually a very memorable villain. He's fun to watch and kinda quirky (kinda like Kefka, now that I think of it), but some of the stuff he does is actually quite mean and outright cruel, in a very comedic and Pegi7 context of course. However, you could easily take the character of Fawful out of the light-hearted, child-friendly context and put him into a little more serous setting and you wouldn't even have to change his personality all that much. That's because he's a well written character. Most Sonic villains aren't and that's the real problem. Whenever Sonic takes a more serious route, the games either feel overly dramatic, edgy, or just unmemorable. Let's face it: Eggman is the most intersting Sonic villain, because, well, he's actually entertaining to watch, while also being quite capable if he has to.
Fawful is amazing! And he has a Kefka-esque flair, too! I love what he does with Bowser's castle. The villains are much more compelling in Mario, I agree. (Except for Eggman)
I had to watch this video to get up to speed on the modern Sonic games.
While the good dialogue and storytelling is top-notch, the bad dialogue and storytelling is appalling.
When Sonic reacts more to getting captured in "Sonic Breakout" in AoStH than he does in Sonic Forces, that might be a problem.
Spoilers for Super Princess Peach, Luigi's Mansion, Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon
Mario at least has a sad expression when he's captured by Bowser's army in Super Princess Peach.
And looks distraught, looking downward while his cap is pulled down over his eyes, while he's trapped in the painting in Luigi's Mansion, and at another time is trying to physically get out from the painting, but not in his usual robust woohoo! way, more like repetitively and futilely palming at the invisible wall from inside the painting.
When Luigi rescues Mario from the painting in Luigi's Mansion, Mario's eyes are spinning around and he doesn't recover for the duration of the game.
When Luigi rescues Mario from the painting in Dark Moon, Mario is pulled out of the painting, looking sad and palm outward, rather than in a fist. He falls out of the painting and lands on his face, disoriented for a few seconds before thanking Luigi and telling him Luigi's #1.
Mario is not a character with a huge emotional range. But he's showing his non-upbeat emotions better in his modern games when he's sad or scared. It's disappointing that Sonic has decent emotional range in the cartoons and the early games and has now become the purveyor of wisecracks--or rather, forget the wise---But if Sonic can't express anything other than a bad attempt at humor after he's freed, that cheapens him being captured in the first place, and makes him more distant and unrelatable.
Even Eggman's humor is really abysmal in some of the scenes, why is the dialogue writing so bad??
Unemployed. Guess that's one of the reasons why I more of an Mario fan than Sonic's. Not to say that I hate Sonic.
👏 IDEA
LET PEOPLE WHO USED TO WORK IN ALPHADREAM HAVE A SHOT WORKING AT SEGA AND LET THEM WRITE THE STORIES
@@unemployedscholar4320 Sonic has shown a ton of emotions in games before Colors. Prime examples being the storybook series. You can feel the rage he has when Erazor basically kills Shara just before he transforms into Dark Spine. The confrontation he has with Merlina before the final battle. He has other moments in the other games.
@@unemployedscholar4320 also i think its safe to assume we cant correlate spin-off Mario to mainline Mario as both seem to be completely different characters. Mainline Mario is as basic and emotionless as you can get with his trademark "its-a me a-Mario" shtick. The one you mentioned was spin-off Mario as Mario and Luigi and Luigi's Mansion are its own thing. Its also why i love Mario and Luigi as those games actually give everyone character, even Peach.
The Sonic's "I was supposed to be the fastest" line if delivered in a better situation could've been more soul crushing than Shadow's sacrifice
Title correction
*How Sega F*cked up Modern Sonic
@@jurassicmat9793 i mean he is not wrong
I know that the stories after Sonic and the Black Knight were not very good
but you mean like sega fucked the modern sonic in general ... when it was not like that
@Tal Ken Unleashed.
*How critics fucked Sonic
How the fanbase became infamous
Thank god someone actually acknowledged this, because I've had this same opinion for so long.
I remember my exact thoughts on Generations were "What the crap, instead of the ability to play as Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or Blaze, we get 2 Sonics on such a limited selection of stages? I thought they said this was supposed to be nostalgic?" I noticed the game had no real story, I wasn't blind to the overly silly tone that was present, then Lost Worlds went further still in this direction & I started losing faith. Forces though felt like it was actually trying to be different, then Roger Craig Smith started delivering his bad jokes so I just changed the language to Japanese & it felt fine after that. Forces was a step in the right direction that got screwed over some.
Yeah, me too
@@WaterKirby1994 I know right! We need even more playable characters. Also, it may sound weird, but I'd also love to play as humans in a Sonic game.
@@tiruliru1189 You know that there actually were a few times you could play as humans in the Sonic Series. Not counting Eggman, you could play as Maria with a 2nd Controller in Shadow the Hedgehog on the stages The Doom & Lost Impact. Sonic Riders you could unlock a few Sega All Stars, I think Ulala is human? Then of course there were crossover games which often let you play as humans other than Eggman.
In my opinion, Sonic Mania was the only 2010s Sonic game with actual heart and effort put into it, with Generations following suit. Sega has essentially become Illumination. They’ll release above average game after above average game, and people will buy it because it’s Sonic. As much as I loved growing up with the 2010s era, I have to admit that Sega hasn’t really tried in this era. Team Sonic Racing was pretty okay in my opinion, but the broken online was a bit of a downer. Colours Ultimate was good too, but the glitches at launch were really disappointing. I just hope with the next Sonic game, they actually put effort into the story and gameplay.
The ambition is what i miss from this franchise part of the reason why sonic became famous was because it was more than just a simple platformer, it was ambitious it had a deep lore and story and sa1 andn sa2 just proved how much this series has potential and just proved us that sonic told fuck you to the standards of the simple platformer gaming and went on it's own path and even it doesn't matter theme just foreshadows that sonic is living by his own feelings and not following anyone and doesn't afraid to take risks and doesn't give a shit about what others think of his attitude but nowdays sonic is just a hedgehog version of Mickey mouse and this series just now bowed to the standards of platforming and just playing it safe and doesn't have any amount oft that edge that he used to have and that makes me hate game critics even more because they just kept saying that sonic shouldn't be serious or its just a cartoony hedgehog and made sega to make sonic a Mickey mouse and i miss the 2000 era even though not all of it games were good sega still had ball to go crazy and take risk and do something new.
yeah he's better off not being a circus clown with zero experience
This video perfectly captures how i feel about the series as a whole. I miss those epic moments, those story arcs, the interesting characters and locations. If i had to describe it, it's as if the Sonic series lost its soul, as if it lost what made us fall in love with it all the way back in the "Genesis Era", or the "Dreamcast Era", or the ""Dark" Era". Bless Mania for coming out in the middle of this identity crisis. Anyway, great job with the video.
I love a Sonic plot that sincerely takes itself seriously, because I always used to take the characters seriously.
like 06?
EVI KOTSIDIMOU no he means Satam, Adventure 1 and 2, Riders, Unleashed, Rush, Secret Rings, and Black Knight's level. Sonic is at his best as a dramatic but not too dark story. It should be serious but also be comedic. Colors and Generation's dialogue is just as bad as 06.
alfa01spotivo
Yeah i guess you're right
i agree, a few quips here and there (like in black knight) from sonic is great as his personality used to be a little snarky but jokes throughout THE WHOLE STORY? like cmon. too much drama is a bit much but a perfect balance between the two, where the comedy doesn't feel forced along with the drama. i just want a somewhat serious story with a only a FEW jokes to bring sonic s character out in moments when it suits it, perhaps just saying a mocking line to a bad guy or joking with one of the other characters before he gets serious, where comedy isn't in every scene of the story. i want a serious story that isn't made into a joke like forces was by the constant try at humor.
06 actually had a good story, to anyone who disagrees please rewatch Shadow's story in 06.
I guess another similarity would be how Josstice League took the wrong lessons, and made it too self aware, while the Snyder Cut actually paid attention to feedback and maintained the course.
The "deadly" six. Those villains that are so bad you wish to go into the game and feed them their teeth with your own hands because they're actively ruining the series you grew up with with their mere presence.
Thank You!
I always liked Sonic Adventure 2 more than the others, because the game was fun AND THEY ACTUALLY TRIED WITH THE STORY!
And also the music on all of knuckles stages.
The story was pretty autistic tbh
Adventure 2 still has the best story seen in Sonic Games. Black Knight is the only Game that compares.
I loved 06 xD
jblue88 hood gamer Shadow and 06 tried with their stories. They just tried too hard.
And SA1 has a series plot that doesn’t go too Head up its ass.
No one ever mentioned this, but seriously someone should tell SEGA to STOP putting Warren and Graff on anything involving Sonic stories. I see their names and see them as THE people responsible for making modern stories absolute garbage, along with making poor scripts for the cast who were perfectly fine in their cartoon.
Xeon Marinas Let's all just except that Sega/Sonic Team doesn't care anymore
Platinum Games maybe?
They're into speed, but more into combat than platforming.
They don't actually write the scripts they just "punch up" the diolouge for the english translation
Kyle Campbell
That's a lie, and even if it was true, it wouldn't be any better.
Man, Forces and Frontiers are polar opposites in how to write a serious Sonic story and characterization
Both trash.
those lines in Lost World actually made me take out my earbuds because they're on an entirely new, never-before-seen level of ass.
In the words of JonTron
BEEP BEEP BEEP! I’M SORRY, WHAT’S THAT? OH IT’S JUST THE “YOU CAN’T MAKE THIS SHIT UP” ALARM!
“I’m not a rat, I’m a hedgehog” blows on lamp banishing enemy. That writing was so good I always replayed it when I was little.These new stories are meh
But then again, the moment is ruined with the mountain of handkerchiefs line, which... was pretty cheesy.
Super Captain Lyall Man
Who said it was a joke?
Super Captain Lyall Man
But the scene itself was trying to take itself seriously.
@ArronZ M. I never got why it was chessy or a joke, the genie had just lost all possibilities of getting back with her lover Erazor ("Serah, I know you're there, please stop him, we can start over, the 2 of us, I swera, I sweart it... THE WORLD IS MINE! I CANNOT BE DENIED BY THAT FILTHY RAT!!! WHY?!!!!!") OF COURSE she was gonna need a mountain of handker chiefs, she was gonna cry by herself until she ran out off tears!! I always though Sonic was a swettheart by whising her that. I putted a smile on my face, and let the player know that it was alright to cry your loses... modern games don't do this good shit anymore.
@@RoxasMark Yeah I agree. It was cheesy but it was also pretty sweet. It made Sonic seem like a nice guy, which is something that doesn't really come across much now.
I really wish Sega would bring back Shiro Maekawa as their guy in charge of story, its clear they stopped having him work on Sonic when they changed directions, alongside Sega having Crush 40 make music for the series far less now, and focused heavily on pandering to nostalgia.
I honestly feel like if they want to continue to go down the route they're going they might as well just reboot the series, since there's a strong disconnect with Modern Sonic and the Classic + Dreamcast era of Sonic now.
Shiro Maekawa and Hiroshi Miyamoto are the best writers in Sonic history.
@@Kuzamer And Kiyoko Yoshimura.
@@bunsmasterbunny
Not to me.
If they reboot Dreamcast Era Sonic and do it right, ie as it was in the DC days, that is IMO what modern Sonic should be. Its far too "targeting a younger age group" now. A little too Nintendo IMO.
The series _is_ pretty much rebooted; Unleashed’s an Adventure 1 rehash with Sonic hogging the stage.
This is what happens when you put a couple of guys who, by their own admission, knew nothing about Sonic before, to write the stories of the games.
I wish Shiro maekawa to write the original scripts and Ian Flynn to do the localization, that would be perfect
If I saw Ian Flynn involved I would shit happy
I'd be so happy I'd piss myself
That’s the best combination, I want shiro to return he knows how to make sonic cool and shadow an actual character rather than being a clone of vegeta
Flynn is a part of the problem though
@@SlainOracle How exactly?
I feel like i'm the only one who liked shadow the hedgehog. don't change my mind... please.
I enjoyed playing it, but yeah the story is contrived at best, I suppose at least it gives more context for shadow's past, albeit messily presented, but it was fun to play and I can acknowledge it wasn't great in how it presented the story and even the gameplay was kinda ehh, but I can still enjoy it while recognising the flaws
MindTheGoop To be fair to Shadow, the whole story was written by Iizuka, who was also directing AND level designing, so it'd make sense if it's a little unfocused, after all he's just one guy, and definitely not a professional writer
Don’t worry, I loved that game too :3
Game had great ideas. Too bad a remaster won't ever happen.
I liked Shadow too. Though the cannon ending sucked. I thought the "super mega happy ending" as I call it, where he remembers the events of SA2 was the best.
You're the hero we need, not the hero we deserve.
Even though I'm personally fine with Sonic's Twitter being one with the memes and occasional self-deprecation, but the stories don't deserve that. No matter how well or poorly the Dreamcast/Dark Age games aged, I can understand that all of those have that passion and magic that most of the 2010s games lack.
Agreed. You articulated it well.
And yeah, the Sonic twitter is pretty good. It gives some love to the Dreamcast Era. They post things related to the Adventure games somewhat occasionally. I don't have a problem with the Twitter at all
After detractors of the series have been calling it out for how ridiculous the 2000s stories were, it's understandable they opted for a more comical take, making fun of themselves, and I liked it in Colors and Generations. But I can agree that it's time to move on. Forces looked like the perfect opportunity to do so with the setting, but nah...
@@brunolinares604 True, I think Colors and Generations worked for their time, but not as a general mood for the entire franchise
THANK YOU. People easily fly away the fact that Sonic Riders and Sonic and the Black Knight actually had good stories that took itself seriously and provided variety and decent scripting. I miss that. I also wish you could have touched on characterization more since that is also a butchered aspect of the story. Sonic isn't even cool anymore. Sonic is more like a trihard who desperately tries to be funny but fails horribly. He also hardly takes anything seriously, and his voice actor paired with the bad vocal direction and bad scripting is just terrible for modern games. I remember a time where this character's translation from 2D to 3D brought along the cool aspects of his character. He was someone who felt experienced, cool, level headed, and someone who could take matters seriously ; like that person in life you could depend on to get the job done with a smile. I have no hope for that Sonic movie coming out. Worse time in history to be releasing a Sonic Movie. Honestly. That thing will flop, and I will not be blindly optimistic just to be disappointed greatly.
Sonic IMO, is like a dad who was once cool and still thinks he is, while everyone else is either humoring him or facepalming.
Yeah I like black knight. Boss battles were awesome
I kinda agree, but disagree about Roger being bad. He actually excels a lot in Sonic Boom, where the writing is awesome. I think that with a good script and a slightly better direction, he will be more than fine.
I just can't take Sonic seriously anymore as a character, maybe cause he doesn't really come across as human-like with flaws in any way, or having difficult things to overcome. He rarely takes things seriously, almost like everything is too easy for him, a joke even. And the few times he does sound more serious, it somehow feels cheap, maybe because his confidence and ability are never lacking, there's never any lasting consequences, and very quickly he just returns to his trying to be funny, super confident, totally relaxed and there's no challenge for me self. He just doesn't seem human in any way.
Yo Mama What’s wrong with comedic storytelling?
19:15 - I get chills down my spine every time I hear Crush 40’s Open your Heart, it’s a great song, not to mention that it stars in the best sonic intro in my opinion that played every time you boot of the game.
I always find the *"We went from a Funny hedgehog stoping Egg shaped doctor to fighting gods"* or *"Humans shouldn't be in Sonic games, we want to return to simple times Sega!"* Argument Stupid cuz like, The classic games weren't just about *"Eggman capture animals Sonic go save",* it was more then that if you read the Japanese manuels which describes that Sonic DOES live in humans world, Green hill was just an Island located at earth which is called "South Island".
Since limitations of the Genesis era, they were forced to tell a story with high stakes by Level selection and manuels, They were even more complex then say Colors or Lost world despite being a 16 bit game imo.
And the Adventure games follows the EXACT story that Classic games *(Especially Sonic 3)* tried to tell by Gameplay and manuels by mentioning various things from the Classic era like:
the Echidna tribe that was mentioned in the manuels of Sonic 3 which was explored more on Adventure 1, Sonic Battle and chronicals.
The mention of Sonic saving the Little planet from Sonic Cd in Sa1
The Green Hill stage of Sonic adventure 2 is located at an Island in the level select screen which is clearly a nod to Sonic 1 manuel mentioning South Island/Green Hill being located at an Island.
Shadow's design being based on The Super Sonic mural from Sonic 3 and Gerald actually going there to investigate it and then making the EXACT copy of it in The last stage of Sa2 etc.
I can go on more, The stakes were there, it was ALL there from the beginning. Sonic fighting a God of destruction, A giant Lizard, Aliens, Sun gods, time eating gods, and Sonic living on earth were all explained but people just overlook them by just *"Funny hedgehog stoping a Egg shaped doctor to fighting gods, why?"* Even tho those were the games that set the bars for those battles.
Shadow: *dies*
6 year old me: *quaking in my seat crying*
Shadow the Hedgehog: Ooh damn, look at me being so damn gritty it makes me personality-free as hell, telling children less than a damn decade old (hence the E10+ rating) to back the hell off!
@@kieranstark7213 exactly
Shadow is the most stupid character in the series
What also helps is that Dreamcast Era Robotnik had some geniunely sinister moments, and you could actually take him sertiously as a threat. You mentioned the dramatic tension of Crazy Gadget, one of my favourite touches in that level is that he constantly taunts Sonic over the P.A. system. "If you don't hurry, [Amy] *will* die!" Seriously, screw Evil Ham, give me Fox Mincemeat any day!
Honestly, I prefer the way Eggman was in Unleashed. With the exception of Heroes, I feel like the Dreamcast era definitely played Eggman too straight. Sinister moments work best when they're used sparingly. Let's not forget that this is an Egg shaped evil scientist with the face of Theodore Roosevelt who traditionally has a big goofy grin etched on his face. A villain like that NEEDS ham every now and then. It makes the sinister moments all the more threatening when they finally snap which was how Unleashed sold it, and made the Egg Dragoon boss fight one of the most atmospheric encounters with Eggman in the entire series.
Then again Eggman's been the best part of the series for awhile now. I can't complain too much.
To each their own.
I'll agree that Unleashed was a nice balance of goofiness and cunning , especially in the opening cinematic, but something about it just doesn't quite work for me.
@FitzyCify
I feel like if you need a straight evil villain you'd be better off just making one rather than retrofitting Eggman into that mold.
Metal Sonic or even Infinite could easily fit the role. Just don't implement them poorly like in Forces.
@@andrewt329 I'm sorry but you have shitty taste and shitty opinions. Wanting a goofy Eggman and thinking he is the best part of the series for a while now proves it
Andrew T maybe they should bring metal back to how he was in heroes, but expand on that or at least that form and personality. I can’t be the only one who actually like seein metal sonic able to speak or think and bein a huge threat
HANGING ON THE EDGE OF TOMORROW!!! God... Live and Learn still gets me hype.
Am I the only one who enjoyed the story and deepness of the Sonic Adventure series, specifically Sonic Adventure 2?
Nope, that’s what this video is about.
J's Reviews Oops, my apologies. I misinterpreted the video.
Those Games have the best stories.
Nope
J's Reviews and
Let me focus on just my favorite although there are others who are also wasted.
Knuckles is:
A Martial Artist
While not Sonic level in speed, is very agile.
Has Super Strength
Has hands strong enough to break stone
Can climb, dig and glide
Can sense and control the Master Emerald
Which can cancel out the power of the Chaos Emeralds
And this character has been reduced to a total joke and for some reason they just focus on him being gullible and now nearly outright stupid. You can never convince me that he would just sit there and wait for Sonic, not even trying to save him.
Horrid
But, he isn't dumb in all ways. He knows more how to do other things, like in the show when he's like a babysitter while the rest of the team go to get the rest of the Tails back from Eggman's lair to make him one Tails again.
Black Chapters or what about shadow; the biggest story potential or downright character who was mutilated. Literally every game from free riders has him there to be there or to be the stereotype people claim is all there is. Heck, in forces he did nothing really significant and boom was a literal joke. And it does NOT help that they replaced jason griffith (who was good at it) with the voice actor of kisame...
I completely agree that he's not an idiot, but living on a deserted island for almost a quarter of your life with only a giant green rock to keep you company would probably leave you with a horrible judge of character that a conniving douchebag like Eggman would take advantage of sometimes.
@@vegetafan9922 Yeah, he's not an idiot, he just goes back and forth between smart and dumb. (Like kids in school can learn certain things faster than others, so they seem smart in one way and dumb in another, but they are not fully stupid.)
Pretty much every modern sonic game is just everyone being sonics cheerleader and talk up to him like he's Jesus because he jumped on someone's head with the power of teamwork.
I agree. Sonic Team needs to grow a pair. We're not asking to make Sonic into some gloomy and depressing character, we just want to see moments of tension. I still think they should hire Ian Flynn
I personally think Shiro Maekawa would be better writing the stories but Ian Flynn is my first option in localization for the games and not Pontac and Graff
Related: I'd love to show the Japanese Sonic 3 manual to someone who thinks Adventure is too serious and not in the spirit of Sonic. The Japanese manual literally describes the Tikal backstory that was adapted in Adventure as Sonic recalls the Legend of Angel Island before he and Tails set off for the island.
But yeah, Sonic has been written awfully since circa 2007.
@@JazzyWaffles 2007 ? It's 2010, are you crazy ?!
THIS is all ON POINT! I really hope the entire Sega company sees this!
At this point everyone can see how badly Sega pandered to nostalgia, and I honestly do not like it one bit.
I am one of the fan who simply lost all interest when Lost World arrived, to the point where I won't even watch playthrough of that game. I simply MISS the era where storylines were handled with care and heart, and Sega willing to take risks.
It almost seemed like Sega noticed the critics praising Colors first for not introducing any new characters, to the point of literally bringing Classic Sonic back into the games. Sega is siding with THAT part of the fan base, and in exchange they lost this side of fans. I really hope Sega can open their eyes to this whole matter.
I think it's not so much of them seeing it, but more of hoping that they care, which, I highly doubt they do. I hate that they've butchered Sonic this badly and made his friends useless because they were listening to the "fans." Unfortunately, this is the world in which we live in; we don't always get what we want...
Games like Forces seem to try and forget certain characters or events from the series. The Chaos Emeralds never appear, and it contradicts a lot of what happened in past games.
I miss when the chaos emeralds were a bigger deal :/
@@caelkins2458 i miss when eggman was a compatant threat who was not just comic relief.
J, the stuff in Forces about torture and Tails going crazy wasn't even in the Japnese version. It was like the localizers went full anime fansub.
London Jackson
Excluding Mania.
Cinko515
The English producers would have to try REALLY hard to fuck that story up, considering there's no text.
london Jackson
not really generations and colors are still very bad, and forces while it took out that wierd shit the story is still pretty underwhelming.
One consistently amazing thing in Sonic is the music.
There is virtually no exception.
That shtts good.
Now I'm going to cry over "His World" Solaris phase 2 instrumental.
a lot of people love memes with a passion, but in all honesty I think they've done more damage than good.
I don’t think the memes were the problem, I’m more leaning into the thought that SEGA thought this was all fans wanted
I know right! Here are some of the worst Sonic memes:
-Ugandan Knuckles
-Edgy the Hedgy
-Ow the Edge
-Snoc the Hog
-PINGAS
-It's no use
-Baldy McNoseHair (terrible joke BTW)
-Sanic
@@tiruliru1189 I actually liked Sanic
Memes are fine. However, when they become the new identity of a "cool" franchise, that's the problem!
@@bleakburd4965 but memes in general all seem to push for that growth beyond the internet, just look at "I'm the juggernaut bitch" and people begging for Waluigi and Bowsette in super smash bros.
I too wish that Sonic and other companies would stop with the "oh, we're so random" based humor. It's really annoying and doesn't help a series progress much or at all.
but teenagers love it, and that's why they keep doing that
At first this was gonna be one of those nostalgia videos, but I'm glad that wasn't the case. I agree with the sentiments of this vid. Shadow and 06 were bad, but at least they actually tried to tell a story, and not do nostalgia pandering, meme garbage.
"As sonic transforms into super sonic for the first time in 3D graphics"
Sonic R: Am I a joke to you?
There is only one reason why the stories were so weak in the 2010s: Ken Pontac and Warren Graff.
They are the writers of the last decade, and they suck balls at writing. One of them even legit confirmed they just went to wikipedia when they were writing the games instead of being on pair with the franchise. Now we have a good writer that actually knows and love the lore.
Never was one who cared much about Sonic stories, but in all honesty, the main issue with most of the storylines of the newer games comes down to some of these things:
-Focus on humor and cheesy lines over world building and plot progression
-Repetitive nature where only the start and end of the game really matters, leading to most stages feeling like filler
-Poor characterization. Sonic in these games can go a little overboard with how they portray him. He tends to become kind of like Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man, or even Deadpool at times, if that makes any sense
-Some characters don't have anything to do in the story of these games. Knuckles and Amy added nothing to the story of Lost World and the Heroes sized cast of Forces had no real depth to them, making them feel like afterthoughts
-Shallowness. It feels like the devs just make the game's pitch and start designing stages, and then Pontac and Graff write up excuses for the characters to do certain things. Colors? There's a bunch of generators to destroy, hence why you're there. Oh, and Eggman has some mind control plan going on which doesn't really go anywhere. Generations? Some random monster of the week is ripping through time, therefore, you have to speed through old levels alongside your past self in order to fix it, despite that making no sense. Lost World? Skittles try and take over the world and you have to team up with Eggman because Sonic is a dumbass. Forces speaks for itself, it's just a mess.
Those are just a few of the issues though. I'm sure there's more I'm missing.
All Pontac and Graff do is make cringy abridged versions of the original japanese scripts. the only time they came up with a story themselves was Lost World and whoever wrote the dialogue in the Japanese dub ended up being better then the English version.
Actually did the basic script came from Pontac and graff for Colors and Genration (So first a thine outline from Sega than Pontac and graff script and first than the Japanese version (the Handheld versions of this games were advanced from the outline to a script by Dimps own in-house writers)
Forces is the only game were there truly just translating (and changing) the Japanese script.
Ah, ok. Doesn't make them better, but thanks for filling me in.
"Generations? Some random monster of the week is ripping through time".
Except the "random monster of the week" was Eggman. Did anyone expect it to not be him?
Justin Stewart It was more like him controlling it rather than just him. I doubt anyone expected it not to be him since he just came back to being the main villain again at that point, but he still technically did randomly find it. It was explained in a short flashback to his defeat in Colors where he just finds it out of nowhere while being pushed through space by Orbot and Cubot.
Bring back the chao garden from Sonic Adventure 2.
YES!! The Chao gardens in SA2 are absolutely timeless. I enjoy them to this day, but I would absolutely die for another sonic game with them in it.
Bring back everything from SA2
I still have SA2 and play it whenever I get really bored it’s crazy this game has a replay factor for so long.
@DONG i know
They were going to bring it back in sonic boom but then things happened.
THOSE
R O T T E N
S N E A K Y
The way J says "pun entirely intended" somehow sounds so similar to the real thing even though it's (probably) supposed to be exaggerated. Just shows how much the voice actors cared.
i personally still love the SA/SA2 plots (and Heroes to a lesser extend)
sure, they are cheesy and the sound mixing is annoying but i genuinely find them creative, entertaining and in some cases EPIC
The sound mixing is the best part.
Before anyone else says in the comment section: "why is a grown arse man complaining about stories in kid's games?", let me explain why:
He's complaining about the stories from 2010 to today because they rely too heavily on the cheesy side of the humour, are generally unmemorable, the characters don't act like themselves, and to top it all, they're written and/or translated by writers Pontac and Graff, who, by their own admission, knew NOTHING about Sonic's history beforehand.
never used to be kids games anyway. People are still in denial that Sonic used to be "cooler" than Mario for more than just le blast processing lol
A grown-ass man is caring because what he had as a child makes the modern day looks like burning shit.
I mean I still got the 2006 Sonic Riders game for the game cube. *shrugs*
@@ChevySamk THIS
@@ChevySamk They ARE kids' games-just ones that happen to skew a bit older than Mario games. And there's zip wrong with that.
Forces is proof that Sonic Team are no longer able to write honest or decent stories, even when they try.
The thing about Modern Sonic is that he seems to painfully try to be cool. The "Modern Sonic" I knew before the 2010s was cool without really trying to by being empathetic towards others and taking his time to reflect on what's happening in the story (instead of mindlessly making decision without thinking about the consequences, as he does in Lost World and Forces).
Ngl my favourite modern story to this day is unleashed for many reasons.
The voice acting is superb
There is an actual story
Chip may be a bit annoying at times, but his death was admittedly sad
The story takes itself seriously while also providing some goofy moments that aren’t completely terrible
E T C
Thats exactly what Im feeling. Sonic unleashed still is my favorite game. The story is tensionous, the music is adorable and sadly this game still up to this date has the best looking graphics.
@@cremetoertchen0815 Mostly agreed. I feel like Sonic Forces barely had better graphics though, but it's still meh to look at since the art style was all over the place and just not that great overall, especially since it tried to go for a realistic tone like what Unleashed amazingly captured.
Unleashed was designed to be a realistic looking game and it really worked out. The environment, the hubwords, Jungle Joyride, even at night everything looked so beautiful.
That's why everyone says Unleashed is the best looking Sonic game.
Huh? Chip didn't die. He just got sealed back into the earth.
@Master Creepy
Unleashed, "realistic-looking"? I'm assuming you're not counting the character designs, lol.
MetaKaios lmao ye the but thank god the character designs weren’t realistic *cough cough 06* . Like for once the humans designs don’t clash with the animals
MetaKaios also nah by death I meant when he got sealed away
Oh my gosh the Sonic torture thing ticked me off so much. I really wanted to see Sonic beaten and bruised, on the verge of giving up hope that he would be free. But he would still have some shread of hope that one of his friends would save him and he'd get to see everyone again. And then...when he gets saved and he sees his friends, he's happy and grateful to see them again. Maybe he'd grow a bit as a character, realizing how he's not as powerful as he thought he was and that sometimes, he needs to get some help now and then.
But NOPE. He's TOTALLY FINE GUYS! Sonic's a beast, he can get tortured for 6 STRAIGHT MONTHS and be COMPLETELY FINE. Heck with you Sega. You missed a PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to give us a neat concept for Sonic's character. YOU BLEW IT. I'm just upset with Sega.
They didn't have any opportunity, because it was never there. That line was added in the English localisation by the English writers, perhaps at an attempt to appear "edgier."
Sonic was never tortured at any point in the story, he was simply imprisoned for 6 months. Same with Tails having "lost it," when the original line said that he went missing.
KirbyKips, I feel ya', i wanted that too.
U cant forget this game in all essence it's a kids game
Sonic had more emotional depth in Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 than he does today!
And that's just sad😥.
True!
You know it's pathetic when even Sonic X had better writing compared to 2010s games.
@@tiruliru1189 Japanese or 4Kids?
Yes.