Thanks for the info. I never knew about TARV instruments. I have a pre-war SARV Bb Trumpet made by Horst. I know it’s a matter of taste, but I personally think it sounds better than any modern piston instrument.
I'm not a trumpet player but what I've heard is that rotary valves tend to actuate faster than pistons, allowing slightly faster runs and licks. And the tubing through the valves tends to be a bit straighter and less restricted which allows for a little more coloration of the tone over its range of dynamics (and a little bit brighter overall) but can also make it a little more difficult to settle in on a partial without overshooting. You almost never see them in beginning and intermediate level play but they're not uncommon at all in high-end professional orchestral settings. My own perspective as a tuba player - I just like the faster and quieter action, and the lower maintenance of rotaries. Pistons are slow, heavy, and loud, or at least on the abused loaners I used to use in school. Was a no-brainer to stick with rotary when I bought my own.
@@ExaltedDuck Interesting. As a professional Horn player, I personally prefer rotors (particularly clockwork) to pistons universally because of the tighter, heavier action and darker timbre. I’ve found that pistons are much lighter than rotors, and are easier to maintain or replace (especially as they age). I hate the feeling of them so the ease is not worth it to me. I’ve also found that how loud a rotor is depends on whether it’s a string or ball-and-socket, how frequently it is professional cleaned, and how well it’s oiled. I own both piston and rotor instruments.
This instrument was manufactured some time in the past, unlike the musical terminators that were manufactured in the future and sent back to the present time to lure John Conner into playing them and then terminating him in the key of Iiiif -thus ensuring that robotkind will be able to play ro-tirry valved instruments in the future without fear of humans complaining about how they put their robot fingers on them. Funnily enough, terminators are really hard on valves and actually do bend them with poor finger-placement due to their inhuman strength.
Even though your videos tend to be short, they are very interesting and it's nice to see frequent uploads. I didn't know that there were top action rotary valves before watching this, but I do now!
What I find most interesting with the rotary valves on my Alex 103, is how the 3rd valve rotates in the opposite direction to 1 and 2, which gives it slightly different playing characteristics.
Holy cow! I used to watch your channel years ago and stumbled upon it today by accident. You look amazing! I have went very much the opposite way in terms of weight gain, and I was wondering if you had any tips. Also, great video! You very much got me into music and working on my current degree towards music business.
I sometimes ponder whether valved French Horns have always used rotary valves, or whether there's ever been any significant models with piston valves. I've only ever been tortured by a French Horn when I was a talentless teenager, as compared to being a talentless mid-fiftyager. That was a nasty school-orchestra-grade single horn and the valves were the only pleasant thing about it. I found them quite fascinating at the time.
There are such things as Vienna horns which use vienna valves, but are otherwise similar to french horns, else there were types of mellophones named the tenor cor which used piston valves. But generally French horns have always had rotary valves that I know of.
Horn player here. Some Geyer-style double horns have piston change valves to switch between the F and Bb sides of the instrument. Carl Geyer made some, I think CF Schmidt made one, and Lewis & Dürk and Dieter Otto make them today (possibly among others). Then there is the French Cor à Pistons, which looks similar to a bell-rear Mellophone but takes a Horn mouthpiece and… well… sounds more like a Horn. The original system was a detachable piston valve cluster that replaced the standard tuning slide on a natural horn. They typically had two valves. Richard Seraphinoff still makes them. Back in the early days of valved horn playing, the French used piston horns, the Germans used rotary horns, and the Austrians used something else all together, which they still use today. It’s called a Pumpenhorn, or Vienna Horn.
@@roughshodbrass Thank you. Replies like these are what make Brass special among instruments for me. The richness and variety of tone are matched by the richness and variety of their history. Sometimes highly experimental or radical, it delights me that people still have an appetite for analogue beauty like this in our increasingly digital, lazy and soundbite-driven lives.
No, absolutely not! Many early French Horns had piston valves. In France (of all places), they were even preferred until the 1960's. Significant model was the Selmer "Vuillermoz" model, later adapted by Lucien Thévet. It was based on the Raoux-Millereau horn. Fun fact, they were made in two different setups: with a third ascending valve, and with a third descending valve (the now standard option). It is like @Roughshod Brass said, the French used pistons, The Germans used rotary and the Austrians used pumpen. Mid 20th century, the French switched to rotary to equal the German/American sound, but the Austrians remain stubborn.
Holy shit I used to watch this guy years ago, mate went from “of course I’ll do your homework for you🤓” to “how do you like your eggs? Scrambled or fertilized” good shit Trent. And great video very informative.
I played a TARV tuba. It was a Saxhorn (over the shoulder) in Eb from the mid 19th Century (make was Graves, I think -- it didn't belong to me). For the kinds of parts played by tubas it was perfectly suitable.
Is there a name for the type of French horn rotary valve actuated via a string linkage? I don't have a French horn on hand but I certainly remember horns and double horns during my school years where a rotary valve with a spring that would prefer to be closed was held open by a key with a stronger spring that prefered to be open. I'm thinking Conn, Bach, or Holton (edit: or yamaha) brand but I may be wrong.
Horn player here. String linkages or mechanical/ball and socket linkages are just called what they are. In terms of who sells which, many brands offer a choice of both. Student models tend to be mechanical.
Valves can be direct-acting or reverse-acting. A direct-acting valve adds additional tubing to the airflow, while a reverse-acting valve causes tubing to be bypassed. Reverse-acting valves are not common, but there's a Yamaha trombone intended for short arms where the instrument is built in C with a whole step loop is used with a reverse-acting rotary valve to move C and F into 1st position.
Just practice pedal tones instead of buying mouthpieces. If you’re specifically covering tuba parts on euphonium, try a bass trombone mouthpiece (maybe Schilke 58 or 59, Bach 1.5G or Bach 1.25G, or something similar).
Hey im curious. I've been watching you for a few years now and you've helped me identify a my vega trumpet I've had restored a whileback. Ive recently purchased another trumpet with intent of giving it a dizzy bell alteration. Its nothing fancy, its a Cavalier peashooter style trumpet made sometime in the 40s as a student level horn I think. Have you've ever done one or interested of doing one something in the future? Thanks for your time
I occasionally see Russian rotary valve instruments for sale. Are they junk, or are there some good ones to be found! If so are there makers to look for, or stay away from?
The Soviet instruments are a strange case. Build quality is fairly poor, but they are very good designs and some of them have pretty high playing potential. Clearly, all of the instruments were designed with power as a priority as they are insanely loud, but they can have good sound and intonation. Problem is the mouthpieces. Many of the designs require mouthpiece types that aren't widely available, and almost all of the shank types are non-standard. The one that is dollar for dollar most worth the effort is probably the ЗДМИ/Leningrad Alto Horn(Tuba). It requires a 10.5mm shank Parforcehorn mouthpiece, so good luck with that.
I would love to see something about the crap load of new trombone valves (Thayer, Hagmann, etc.)
Thanks Trent for the info. Would like to have heard a review of the two instruments that you displayed. Maybe next time?
Indeed! Personally, I Would have liked to hear them to see if I can tell a difference in sound
I think he compared them in one of the individual reviews of them..?
Thanks for the info. I never knew about TARV instruments.
I have a pre-war SARV Bb Trumpet made by Horst. I know it’s a matter of taste, but I personally think it sounds better than any modern piston instrument.
I'm not a trumpet player but what I've heard is that rotary valves tend to actuate faster than pistons, allowing slightly faster runs and licks. And the tubing through the valves tends to be a bit straighter and less restricted which allows for a little more coloration of the tone over its range of dynamics (and a little bit brighter overall) but can also make it a little more difficult to settle in on a partial without overshooting. You almost never see them in beginning and intermediate level play but they're not uncommon at all in high-end professional orchestral settings. My own perspective as a tuba player - I just like the faster and quieter action, and the lower maintenance of rotaries. Pistons are slow, heavy, and loud, or at least on the abused loaners I used to use in school. Was a no-brainer to stick with rotary when I bought my own.
@@ExaltedDuck Interesting. As a professional Horn player, I personally prefer rotors (particularly clockwork) to pistons universally because of the tighter, heavier action and darker timbre. I’ve found that pistons are much lighter than rotors, and are easier to maintain or replace (especially as they age). I hate the feeling of them so the ease is not worth it to me. I’ve also found that how loud a rotor is depends on whether it’s a string or ball-and-socket, how frequently it is professional cleaned, and how well it’s oiled. I own both piston and rotor instruments.
This instrument was manufactured some time in the past, unlike the musical terminators that were manufactured in the future and sent back to the present time to lure John Conner into playing them and then terminating him in the key of Iiiif -thus ensuring that robotkind will be able to play ro-tirry valved instruments in the future without fear of humans complaining about how they put their robot fingers on them.
Funnily enough, terminators are really hard on valves and actually do bend them with poor finger-placement due to their inhuman strength.
Even though your videos tend to be short, they are very interesting and it's nice to see frequent uploads. I didn't know that there were top action rotary valves before watching this, but I do now!
What I find most interesting with the rotary valves on my Alex 103, is how the 3rd valve rotates in the opposite direction to 1 and 2, which gives it slightly different playing characteristics.
Holy cow! I used to watch your channel years ago and stumbled upon it today by accident. You look amazing! I have went very much the opposite way in terms of weight gain, and I was wondering if you had any tips. Also, great video! You very much got me into music and working on my current degree towards music business.
I sometimes ponder whether valved French Horns have always used rotary valves, or whether there's ever been any significant models with piston valves. I've only ever been tortured by a French Horn when I was a talentless teenager, as compared to being a talentless mid-fiftyager. That was a nasty school-orchestra-grade single horn and the valves were the only pleasant thing about it. I found them quite fascinating at the time.
There are such things as Vienna horns which use vienna valves, but are otherwise similar to french horns, else there were types of mellophones named the tenor cor which used piston valves. But generally French horns have always had rotary valves that I know of.
Horn player here. Some Geyer-style double horns have piston change valves to switch between the F and Bb sides of the instrument. Carl Geyer made some, I think CF Schmidt made one, and Lewis & Dürk and Dieter Otto make them today (possibly among others).
Then there is the French Cor à Pistons, which looks similar to a bell-rear Mellophone but takes a Horn mouthpiece and… well… sounds more like a Horn. The original system was a detachable piston valve cluster that replaced the standard tuning slide on a natural horn. They typically had two valves. Richard Seraphinoff still makes them.
Back in the early days of valved horn playing, the French used piston horns, the Germans used rotary horns, and the Austrians used something else all together, which they still use today. It’s called a Pumpenhorn, or Vienna Horn.
@@roughshodbrass Thank you. Replies like these are what make Brass special among instruments for me. The richness and variety of tone are matched by the richness and variety of their history. Sometimes highly experimental or radical, it delights me that people still have an appetite for analogue beauty like this in our increasingly digital, lazy and soundbite-driven lives.
No, absolutely not! Many early French Horns had piston valves. In France (of all places), they were even preferred until the 1960's. Significant model was the Selmer "Vuillermoz" model, later adapted by Lucien Thévet. It was based on the Raoux-Millereau horn. Fun fact, they were made in two different setups: with a third ascending valve, and with a third descending valve (the now standard option). It is like @Roughshod Brass said, the French used pistons, The Germans used rotary and the Austrians used pumpen. Mid 20th century, the French switched to rotary to equal the German/American sound, but the Austrians remain stubborn.
@@RetiredBrass Excellent, thank you.
Holy shit I used to watch this guy years ago, mate went from “of course I’ll do your homework for you🤓” to “how do you like your eggs? Scrambled or fertilized” good shit Trent. And great video very informative.
Why did you stop watching him? Missing out bud
I played a TARV tuba. It was a Saxhorn (over the shoulder) in Eb from the mid 19th Century (make was Graves, I think -- it didn't belong to me). For the kinds of parts played by tubas it was perfectly suitable.
Is there a name for the type of French horn rotary valve actuated via a string linkage? I don't have a French horn on hand but I certainly remember horns and double horns during my school years where a rotary valve with a spring that would prefer to be closed was held open by a key with a stronger spring that prefered to be open. I'm thinking Conn, Bach, or Holton (edit: or yamaha) brand but I may be wrong.
Horn player here. String linkages or mechanical/ball and socket linkages are just called what they are.
In terms of who sells which, many brands offer a choice of both. Student models tend to be mechanical.
Valves can be direct-acting or reverse-acting. A direct-acting valve adds additional tubing to the airflow, while a reverse-acting valve causes tubing to be bypassed. Reverse-acting valves are not common, but there's a Yamaha trombone intended for short arms where the instrument is built in C with a whole step loop is used with a reverse-acting rotary valve to move C and F into 1st position.
Thank you for the very informative video! I was genuinely curious about side action rotary valves
Awesome video as always! THANK YOU!
Wish these were more common
And as most of us know that trombones use rotary valves and rarely piston valves
Amazing Video man!
Yes
Yes, interesting and informative...........100 Tuba Christmas, they're out in force..
What euph mouthpiece do you use when you need to play pedal tones?
Schilke 51D is my personal go-to. You can play pedal tones pretty well with any larger cup size, just use a lot of lower lip.
Just practice pedal tones instead of buying mouthpieces. If you’re specifically covering tuba parts on euphonium, try a bass trombone mouthpiece (maybe Schilke 58 or 59, Bach 1.5G or Bach 1.25G, or something similar).
@@mr.starfish4965 ye that’s what I’m doing, I know a bloke who absolutely shreds using a 0al
Yay!
Hey im curious. I've been watching you for a few years now and you've helped me identify a my vega trumpet I've had restored a whileback. Ive recently purchased another trumpet with intent of giving it a dizzy bell alteration. Its nothing fancy, its a Cavalier peashooter style trumpet made sometime in the 40s as a student level horn I think. Have you've ever done one or interested of doing one something in the future? Thanks for your time
No I haven't played one of them.
@@TrentHamilton you think you can make one?
roTERI valves is definitely a new one.
Trent does say ROteri valve at 2:07, so he may have been having us on.
I occasionally see Russian rotary valve instruments for sale. Are they junk, or are there some good ones to be found! If so are there makers to look for, or stay away from?
The Soviet instruments are a strange case. Build quality is fairly poor, but they are very good designs and some of them have pretty high playing potential. Clearly, all of the instruments were designed with power as a priority as they are insanely loud, but they can have good sound and intonation. Problem is the mouthpieces. Many of the designs require mouthpiece types that aren't widely available, and almost all of the shank types are non-standard. The one that is dollar for dollar most worth the effort is probably the ЗДМИ/Leningrad Alto Horn(Tuba). It requires a 10.5mm shank Parforcehorn mouthpiece, so good luck with that.
@@Markworth thanks for the response. I'm more into vintage conns but the valves on the soviet instruments intrigue me. Thanks again!
ok usually i dont make fun of the accent because i like it but the first word he says is row terry
Very interesting!
Very nice
I feel like you always post a video like this right when I get curious about something. Are you affiliated with Google?
Blimey!..youve lost weight!!! 😲
Whats your secret?
I could do with losing about 5 stone.
Tapeworms! Lots and lots of tapeworms.