Progression Systems - How Good Games Avoid Skinner Boxes - Extra Credits
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2015
- Progression systems in games are far too often designed as Skinner boxes: psychological traps that feed us carefully measured rewards to create habit-forming activity loops. Skinner boxes are not rewarding in themselves, but progression systems can be, and they should be used to create a better game experience. Building in choices that allow the player to select their own build (and optimize it) lets the player think ahead and makes progression a part of the game experience in itself.
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2:12 You also need a backtracking system to prevent spec anxiety, when people like me are afraid to spend any stat point before fully understanding what works best.
Yup, and i actually never feel that i understand, so i don't spend them at all
Actually a party consisting of a war hardened cynical and aggressive healer, and a young , idealistic, naive and well trained knight who never saw real combat though, and hence is reluctant to fight, THAT would make for a very interesting game I think.
So 95% of my overwatch games?
Hear me out
I played a sort of dnd but digital game with characters who were exactly like this
That could be interesting.
This is also a great idea for a dnd game
Tf2 medic
A quick thing about WoW-styled talent-trees versus the linear progression of other RPGs:
The downside of using talent-based systems is that, while it creates more player choices, the community will inevitably find the most mathematically powerful combination of talents and proceed to call that package the one-true-combination. In the worst scenarios, this can lead to elitism and harassment of players who differ from this formula. A linear progression of talents, while carrying its own baggage, does avoid this issue.
It could be interested to hear a discussion about the merits of each!
+Jonathan Herzog
the counter to this phenomenon can also be wildly controversial, such as re-ballancing large sections of game-play, nerfing entire gameplay styles, or rendering old techninques moot by simply pumping out ever stronger gear and stronger enemies.
one way of doing it right can be the use of expansions, as long as they apply to certain sections of play without rendering a player obsolete, where they already are. But then a dev risks problems with expansions or dlc. done right, expansions are generally few, and hopefully don't split the playerbase. done wrong, too many little dlcs for too a high a price, or the worst of them all, paid dlc expansions in a subscription based setting. free large expansions in a subcription based setting can be considered perfectly fair if done right, such as how Eve Online works (as much as i hate the game).
free expansions in a non subscription environment may be considered the least profitable, but one look at Team Fortress 2, and it's totally possible to have a vibrant, free game, with premium content, no split player base when it comes to fundamental play, and tons of free/pay if you want expansions. this is the game where you can sell $100 digital hats (i just sold a 50 USD hat a couple days ago), its a model that is wildly successful for valve. and by wildy, I mean kids printing money levels of insane profit, as TF2 has been the proving grounds for Steam innovations, and boy are they both profitable.
They both have the same issue, just that with WoW you actually have a choice and so it is more fun.
Jonathan Herzog There's no guarantee that there is an objective most-powerful build. I don't play WoW, but League of Legends looks to me to have a similar system (Masteries). In that, there's enough of a range of options that most characters have at least a little wiggle-room in how you set up masteries without one definite best. That might also be because of how almost everything about the game depends on the other nine players - WoW is mostly PvE, right?
Jonathan Herzog I think I remember another extra credits episode where that makes the skill tree a calculation rather than a meaningful choice, and learning how to differentiate the two can benefit developers.
Jonathan Herzog And that's why WoW axed the talent trees in favor of talent rows every 15 levels or so instead a couple years ago, doing their best to ensure none of the talents are inherently superior. They seem to be trying to add in an alternative progression path with the new weapons in Legion, though they're likewise smart enough to treat it like the draenor perks in that by max level you'll have everything, its simply a matter of what you personally want to focus on getting first this time instead of a random roll.
energy systems are the worst gaming mechanic to have ever been invented.
Joseph Dodds agree
they are literally just the devs trying to make people pay more.
Joseph Dodds in a way, they are the worst, but atleast it gives you a "save spot" so you wont be attacked all the time ex: COC, Royal Revolt 2
Macky Rayne probably a moot point considering how long ago this comment was but I think the person who posted this might be talking about those energy systems that either prevent you from playing after a certain amount of time such as those gotchopon style games (I think that's what they're called) or those systems that reduce the amount of experience you gain if you dont subscribe or pay for a booster of some kind. The rest area styles that give you a boost instead are a little better (long as they actually give a boost and dont create the illusion of a boost).
Absolutely
I love how the artists can even make a Warhammer 40k space marine look cute.
Peter Molina jessicadunn.deviantart.com/art/Tyranid-Ripper-plushy-407970576
Already done. I think.
Yossi Lipton archive.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1377/21/1377217020035.png
Level grind can be good game design, but not if you make it a chore. #ExtraCredits
Extra Credits I was wondering if you guys could do in episode on the increasing amount of fan made games that are being made.
Any chance you could do an episode about what makes Pokemon and similar games so popular?
Extra Credits This method works best for RPGs but what about games like World of tanks and war thunder? or even how Call of Duty chooses to progress? any way to make that more interesting?
+Extra Credits progression system became like crafting system a must have in all games. i like the progession system of borderlands, yet i am getting tired of crafting systems there are starting to get on the level for a game to be popular and sell you need a crafting system. I find them to be a way to waste time and keep you addict like the skinner box
Extra Credits Hey, love the channel, been following a long time now, but I have a question, are you going to do more episodes of "design club"?
I feel Dark Souls has an incredibly rewarding progression system. When you start out you're pretty much pounded into the dirt by trashmobs but after bashing your head against that world for hours you reach a sort-of god level among the regular enemies, were you smack them around like they were toys.
The best feeling I had in that game was with my second character, I avoided the Capra Demon fight until very late in the game and came back all super-saiyan mode and breezed through it.
+Carl Bernroth The brutal part is that if you aren't very good at it, you can actually progress the game without progressing the character and run yourself against a wall of sorts. Say you keep managing to stubborn yourself through all the bosses, but keep losing your bloodstain, you'd be essentially punishing yourself by progressing the game.
(4 years late but whatever)
I love that the weapons and armor in DS aren't based on stuff like their material as most games do, but are instead based on the design of the weapon itself. As a swordsman wannabe in real life, I appreciate the amount of thought that went into each weapon's fighting style and damage output. There is no "right" playstyle, and any character with any weapon can be equally powerful, given enough skill with that particular weapon. Rather than looking at numbers, you see the weapon itself, and I love that.
Sunny Afternoon they have souls that are in the form of an item, most notably boss souls but there are also souls scattered about in the world you can pick up off of corpses. You don’t lose these upon death, until you redeem them, but there is no reason to do so unless your by a bonfire and want to level up.
@@TrueGoose117 or you want to buy stuff
One of the best examples of good progression I feel is Monster Hunter. Getting access to new fights means new parts to craft new armors and weapons, which is exciting. The game revolves around progression--hell for what modest story there is, they even draw attention to that aspect.
New armor pieces mean you can formulate new armor sets that compliment your weapons and is, IMO, one of the funnest aspects to the game, right up there with actually using your sets to kick monster ass.
Zedrin Couldn't agree more, progressing in Monster Hunter when you're a new player fells magical even if the game is grindy as HELL
Zedrin I think that's a bad example because you don't get any actual new moves or special moves with the newer armor, you just get higher stats. It's not like the high level katana does a different attack when you press circle or has some added secret special move if you mash R enough. It's still the same old moves, they just do more damage. You therefore do not get access to new playstyles, as all the moves each weapon type can use are usable with every weapon.
Dreikoo well buffing up your raw attack power is usually the most suggested and simplest path, but it isn't any different than how many games with wide amounts of choices still have a few more optimal builds that are simply better than others.
And even if your basic attacks are the same, the armor skills you put in can change how you can approach a hunt. There are Evasive skill builds that allow you to stay close to a monster more easily, Guard based skills can affect how aggressively shield using weapons can play, Elemental ups, Weakness Exploit or Fencing despite all being aggressive skills can change where on a monster you may want to attack. There are also skills to benefit Underwater movement or your effectiveness at mounting monsters depending on the game. Then there are the more oddball ones like Wide-range mushroom sets or stylish-bombing sets.
Dreikoo But you do get new abilities. While your movesets stay consistent, the game wouldn't be fair if it restricted your weapon moves. Scaling wouldn't make sense.
Instead you get access to more and more armor skills that give you more buffs. A lot of them are passive, but some really change how fights go. Speed eater, earplugs, Mushroommancer, even evasion boosts, etc. are all skills that can change the way you play. (Evasion +3 on a lance means immortality when hopping which is a drastically different playstyle only available at high to G rank). Finding armor builds that give you the skills you want and new combinations is the rewarding aspect of the game.
The game would be imbalanced if the fundamentals behind each weapon changed as you played. (But even then, at higher levels for a small few weapons, you do get new modifications, such as removing limiters for bowguns which slightly changes their playstyles.)
Zedrin
I feel the term "abilities" is misunderstood.
"Abilities" in the context of Jrpgs refers to special super hype new unique "moves". Not passive statistical bonuses but big, visually unique attack/magic moves.
An ability is something like this:
"Flame Barrage: Jump into the air and summon your army of flaming spears, rain hell upon your foes!
-(does 40x attack fire attribute damage, looks hype and unique compared to every other skill in the game, is unlocked through "progression")
Not something like:
"Flame enhancement: Flame-attribute weapons do 20% more damage"
The latter thing would fall under "Passive Skill" in this context.
If you really want to be good in a MMO, you don't brainstorm, sadly. You just copy a optimal, universally agreed list from the web and roll with it. No decisions at all.
Crimson Syndrome Its rather disappointing that people often do this... especially when these builds are often actually pretty bad, with only the few people who make unique builds finding this out, then often keeping said builds secret.
Crimson Syndrome Actually. very few MMO's i've played follow that rule. In fact, almost none of the ones i have play have followed that rule. Literally the only MMO's that follow that kind of rule are ones like World of Warcraft. MMO's can be very flexible, and many that i've played don't have any kind of "ideal build"
Besides that, the very idea of the "ideal build" is plain stupid and boring because it severely restricts what one can do with ones character, which is why i will NEVER play by an "ideal build", ever.
+Crimson Syndrome You can also look up the solutions to an adventure game if what you want is to solve it in optimal time, instead of enjoying it. But that's something you choose to do, not something the game forces you to do. And just because the consensus is that a certain build is optimal doesn't mean that it actually is, especially for you and your specific playstyle. It's a cop-out.
I miss being able to play with talent builds in World of Warcraft. It was fun. The new simplified talent system is still just as prone to the "optimal build" problem as the older complex one, except it's no fun at all to play with.
When I talk to people about WoW these days, the word "fun" doesn't seem to pop up very often.
Arioch IV Firstly, adventure game analogy don't quite catch the point, because single-player games are devoid of competition.
Competition is the main factor, which makes people to go for optimal (or at least believed to be optimal) builds. They lead to better success percentage and for a lot of people Winning = Fun. Simply, winning is being seen as more fun than doing your own thing. That's why meta decks exist in CCG's like MTG or Hearthstone and optimal builds exist in MMO's.
Problem is... how do design around that in a competitive game? Building ABSOLUTELY BALANCED game is impossible, and gamers will find out about the optimal way to win no matter what you do.
It is probably human nature to value domination over others more than fun and relaxation. In my opinion that is why most popular games (FPS'es and MOBA's) are ultra-competitive.
Crimson Syndrome It's true, but not entirely. Back when I still played WoW, during Wrath, I had only ever played a hunter. I had a couple other classes that I had leveled through recruit a friend who were languishing in outlands. I got bored and decided to level my shaman. Up to this point she had been enhancement, but I realized that I was gearing all wrong. I wasn't big on melee, so I spent time respeccing to elemental, when a friend pinged me and asked if I wanted to DPS Utgard Keep. The character was only 62 or something, so I replied that I wouldn't be able to hit anything, and it would be a waste of time. He then, without missing a beat says "okay, then heal."
I sat there looking at the resto tree, having no idea how to heal, and came up with a spec. That run was painful, but it started my love affair with healing, and ultimately, I discovered that the spec I came up with on my own was the optimal resto build.
While you can certainly just copypasta what the theory crafters tell you is the best, you can still get a level of satisfaction from doing it yourself. It's all about your own priorities in playing. For some people, deciding what build to go with is uninteresting, but they want to get a good one, so they can copy a proven spec and do what they enjoy doing in the game, rather than taking time to do what they don't enjoy.
>daniel says off
>does a OFF reference by putting the logo on-screen for a second
*damn you daniel you clever son of a mom*
'' If the most efficient way to progress turns out to be the least interesting thing to do - ehh you don't want that ''
runescape players: Delet dis
pokemon too lol
Examples?
@@klyxes leveling up a ratata, magikarp, any pokemon that is underleveled
Most AAA games
An interesting video, as always EC. But I feel you somewhat undersell the common JRPG system of awarding skills and level ups per level in an unchangeable fashion. I would argue those types of progression systems can be very engaging from an exploration perspective. I for one have a lot of fun trying out different pokemon because I'm excited to see what interesting moves each creature learns. Not knowing how our characters will develop as we level up makes getting the big rewards more awesome because we totally didn't see them coming.
That being said, most of this episode seemed focused on MMOs, not single player games, and I'd readily agree that a long-term skill tree system is better for those types of games, but you didn't really make the distinction in this episode so I felt like pointing it out.
Miyamoto Fan The problem with RPG XP / Level progression systems is that nearly every damn game uses it, it's become dev's goto tool for providing longevity. Hell it's even considered "bad game design" by some to not include it.
TrevHead10
That's true, it's not right for every game.
*****
That doesn't stop it being interesting to learn what new moves each pokemon learns.
+Miyamoto Fan However, with pokemon, There are Tms, move tutors, protein, calcium, breeding, super training etc.
It allows for more customization than you think, and then those really into the game could make a special wall Infernape if they so chose.
Liam White
That's correct.
....It still doesn't change the fact that it's fun to level up pokemon to see what moves they learn.
I belive Dark Souls has an amazing Progression System, because I often find myself lost in strategy when leveling up. On top of that Dark Souls 3 allows complete respec
They Call Me Ted I loved bloodborne but with no respec option, my first playthrough was mediocre at best.
Comparing how enemies get stronger along with you the only real thing thats progressing is your own skill. Its brilliant how level progression is just a natural way for you to play the game gradually and not skip over everything.
I'd say the Fire Emblem series is a great example of using progression systems strategically over the course of the whole game. It's vital to make sure everyone chips in during a battle to make sure they all level up a bit, since you'll need everyone to be at the top of their game with every new chapter. This is especially true in the Conquest branch of the newest game, Fates, where the player can't simply grind "random encounters" over and over and instead has to make do with what little experience and gold they can get from each chronological chapter. You can't just pump all the experience and loot into the main character and try to solo everything (believe me, I tried) since the maps are designed in such a way that a balanced team is almost required to beat them without deaths.
On top of this, you have skills, supports and class changes to consider. You have to look at your different units and decide which ones would work well together as a pair in combat - Will they grant each other useful stats when paired up? Will they benefit from learning each other's classes? Will their eventual child inherit good stats, classes and skills, too? All these factors greatly affect the way you setup your army and place your units - the progression systems themselves influence your strategy in a major way in every level.
Conquest is soul crushingly hard lol
Brody M.
Its map design is amazing tho
well at least chapter 10 is, especially on hard
i think a problem with fire emblem is that sometimes you rely on luck for a strong character. outside of awakening and birthright, if one character does not grow well, you might as well leave them out even if you trained them extensively
DaanRawksGaming Fuck Chapter 10 on Conquest, I spent too many hours trying to get no deaths on that map.
Joseph Cruz Chapter 10 is the one in the port town, right? I loved that map.
I really like how you connect each episode's topic or theme to a previous video, it really helps explain things and expand on what your original idea is all about.
I'm always waiting for this to come out each Wednesday. :D
It really does keep coming back to that age-old problem in games: giving your player meaningful choices to make. If the player lacks agency (or at least the illusion of agency), they're not going to enjoy the experience in the same way. If you give the player too much agency right away, however, you'll scare many players off. The power of meaningful choices in a game is what allows games like Terraria to thrive (go anywhere, do anything!), and simultaneously is what becomes those very same games' biggest problems (where do I go, what do I do?).
So... since it was added in the video...
Bacon and omelette, or Belgian Waffles?
Danmarinja The last good Belgian waffle I had was here when I was 13 years old. So, bring it on.
Danmarinja wrap the bacon in the omlette and press it against 2 belgian waffles, BACON WAFFLE SANDWICH, BITCH!
***** Why? Why would you taint bacon with your crummy waffle when the only way to enjoy bacon is with either Ketchup or Brown sauce and the waffle is with syrup?
Danmarinja Objection! You can also enjoy them maple glazed. Crazy delicious.
Danmarinja you have evidently never tried bacon drizzled with syrup.
This is some of the best content I’ve ever seen about video games. Thank you so much for sharing! This is incredible. I can’t thank you enough.
have they covered binary morality systems yet? i would really like to hear there thoughts on the matter
Mr.Red I'm pretty sure they have. I think they did it when they had a few videos on "choice" within games
Mr.Red Yeah like SWTOR is like "you can be good or evil but not really in between" so they only reward you for being either super evil or super good, with no benefits to staying in the middle
***** I think InFamous is another great example of a binary morality system done wrong. One of the selling points was suppose to be choosing good, evil or neutral. Sadly in the game you are always only given choices between good or evil. If you don't stick with one side your attacks are weaker. Also at the end of the first game you can switch to evil for a lot of exp but your moves are locked.
Brandonious15987
and mass effect does it terribly, i think it's an issue of genre... that being said Shepard is a bland character no matter what you do with him.
to clarify, binary morality systems should stay out of WRPGs, noting that the goal of most WRPGs is to immerse the player, no one is a complete saint or complete asshole all the time.
Mr.Red Each Mass Effect game does it differently though. I think ME3 does it best in that the points only exist for story content rather than any gameplay reason - if you're Renegade the NPCs call you evil but you can still pick the good options and get good rewards.
I always wish I had the ability to talk about a subject with the thoughtfulness of this channel.
I like the way that some Minecraft mods will redo survival minecraft to have better pacing through a progression system. Just seeing all the different ways that they achieve this is exciting because some mods will change crafting recipies, others will change or add mechanics, some even use maps to control what resources the player gets and when.
Some of my favorite progression systems in modded Minecraft are the Regrowth modpack from the FTB Launcher and the Better Than Wolves mod.
I want to have a carrer change in my life and go after a life long dream of becoming a game developer, I've just turned 29 a couple months ago and I've been able to go back to the univerisity to attend computer engeneering, the work you are doing here is priceless for me, I wouldnt be able to easily and readily get this info anywhere, even from most books as my time is very very limited, thank you very much! Please don't ever stop this channel, and if I can help in any way let me know!
Thanks for putting that as the outro music, I haven't been playing Splatoon since they shut down Splatfests and I forgot how good the music in that game sounds.
This makes me think of how the most recent Fire Emblem titles tie their progression system to the characters very well. Classes and weapons are all something personalized by each individual person playing the game, and we often feel *closer* to our units because of how we progress them, to the extent of sometimes choosing the progression that feels more in character as opposed to the one that makes the most battle strategy sense.
No mention of Terraria, a game all about progression without a skill tree
it effectively does. Equipment based progression isn't that much different than a skill tree. There's still a clear progression tree, the method rushing you to that level is simply a lot more straight forward, instead of farming skill xp/ap whatever to build your stat/skill tree you can just be given items.
Terraria's progression is pretty freaking awesome. You start with three items and a guide. An hour in, you may have accidentally created an entire city as you gain more powerful tools. There's even times when you have to pnder whether or not you want an upgrade, because Terraria has made it so that you don't HAVE to grind. Sometimes you might, but the grinding is less heavy on the player.
I found them through extra history and I fell instantly in love with the channel and seeing how I love games mythology and I want to get a PhD in history this is an amazing channel for me
Great episode guys, and that outro! you guys sure know how to stay fresh ;)
Splatoon music! :D
Carter TheDog Its certainly got an interesting set-up for player retention and progression.
Everything you listed can also have a nasty dark side to it. You describe the dictionary definition of min/maxing like an unambiguously good thing, it "allows players to plan ahead." No, it FORCES players to plan ahead, and some of us don't enjoy that. Indeed, this very aspect is why I stopped playing MMOs when City of Heroes closed down - I'm sick of not playing the actual game in order to mess with the meta-game.
Similarly, rewarding the most "efficient" way to play your game is a trap for those of us who aren't goal-oriented and don't want the most efficient path. Typically in games with a progression system, "the most efficient path" is playing on a higher difficulty, under the mistaken impression that all players want to be challenged. No, some of us don't. Some of us are all too happy to play on a middling difficulty for the power fantasy, and it's more than a little disheartening to be told that we're enjoying the game wrong.
There's a lot of good to be had with progression systems, yes, but this video seems to believe the MMO approach is it. I disagree.
Yeah. Bad games force me to look up the games wiki and 20 other sites, so I don't mess up my build or miss the good stuff in a branching story.
another good episode :) keep up the good work
The art has gotten better and better. I like the Sonic reference at 0:46.
Idk if linear progression systems in jRPGs are a bad thing, I wouldn't want a skill tree for every character in Persona 3, I get just as much diversity by picking which party members come with me.
Great episode. Just please, stop using Wow as an example of good progression...there are of course much worse methods used by other games, but (out of the bigger titles) there is no game made to date that succeeds to waste your time with mindless grind better then Wow.
+Derrick Hayden I think somebody is still butthurt over the WoD garrisons. :B
There is GuildWars2. No grind.
Just have to say I love your episodes ... intelligent and well presented.
Great presentation value! Subscribed.
4:45... The real life personality of healers in MMO's is so incredibly volatile towards their teammates though xD
It's probably from seeing one too many tanks jump into seas of enemies
A video on how to not make grinding suck? One of my new favorite episodes :D
I love the way you say comfortable @2:56. Too many people say "comf-ter-ble"
love how you brought up the loot cave
Love the content
Standart game progression system nowadays:
_"SLAP THAT BATTLEPASS ON THIS GAME"_
Now i see what Meet your Match is for! attracting new players and keeping their time!
Good content! Keep it up guys! :)
h-he mentioned dawn of war... i am so happy.... FOR THE EMPEROR!!! FOR THE IMPERIUM!!!!
+Nikolaj Steffensen
AWRITE BOYZ, DERE DEY ARE!! GET STUCK IN, WE'RE HAVIN' A ROIGHT WAAGH!!
+Darasilverdragon BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
+Nikolaj Steffensen DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!!
Nikolaj Steffensen
Clearly a necron
1:28 "thinking about your build"
Nooo, you just copy what a wiki says is the best.
I just love this channel.
this!!! this is what I have been looking for an explanation this stuff quite literally makes or breaks a game for me. 90% of all RPGs will fail at this and my favorities are always good at this. Quality upgrade/progression mechanics should be up there with main fundamental mechanics when developing a game.
Pillars of Eternity has a great progression system that feels a lot like the long-term, planned out, very rewarding style of character development you see in tabletop RPGs. I wish more games were like it.
Justin Woo Pillars of Eternity is the best RPG I've played since Neverwinter Nights 2 when it comes to long-term development and customization of your character. Funnily enough both games were made by Obsidian (though PoE was built from scratch while NWN2 was D&D 3.5, but ah well).
Justin Woo Could you please explain me the progression system of Pillars of Eternity? I haven't played it. Does it work similar as PoE where you have perks and spells. And they level if you use them? I like that system, but I would be interested how a game would play out where the perk system was removed completely. I think it could add more depth to an RPG if everything developes when used. It could make the character more authentic in it's playstyle. I would like to hear your oppinion. :)
Justin Woo Sadly PoE does have some major stuff screwed up. I consider myself a fan of cRPG's and yet... PoE didn't manage to make me feel invested. Combat system was awful and sadly all of the learning curve and difficulty was reduced to "memorize the game". Since you couldn't run from battle especially in small areas and the battles themselves provided no reward (as there was no real loot to be earned from them and no EXP either) which hurts even more since there was freakin lot of it right from the start. So sorry it just felt bland to me and it means something I guess since I could replay BG2 any time over this or even play some of the grindier jRPG over that anyday i does say something.
that outro tho...
Dude, I know. So fresh.
+ZylethXenocian and hip
MrForestfirefan Nah, super-fresh!
Darca1n would you say its radical?
MrForestfirefan Gnarly!
The OFF reference made me very happy. Interesting video!
This is an awesome episode. It is even good compared to other Extra Credits game design video. I love messing with the talents in WOW. Even without playing, I would still devour game book guides, learning more about the class system. I would ponder over which talent is the best. It is really fun. For example the last class I learned how to play was monk. I tried out all the specs, before I figured out which one was the best. I thought it was the melee damage spec, because it works so well with other hybrid classes. As it turns out, it doesn't work so well for the monk in my opinion. The best one is the healing spec. It is conterintuitive because I usually avoid the healing specs. It is doesn't seem as fun as damage, and it is not suitable for my soloing play-style. It took a lot of experimentation to figure things out. At low levels, monks have a disappointingly low variety of moves, compared to other hybrids. There is a main focus on melee damage. I actually have to take the healing spec in order to have any decent healing spells. It is there where I feel like I am having lots of fun and my character is really strong. I still get the melee attack stance, which allows me to deal plenty of damage. Then I can go to healing stance, and use a good healing spell when my fighter gets really hurt. It is awesome. One thing I noticed is that hybrid and pet classes are very difficult to learn. They have a lot of moves that can overwhelm a begging player. I recommend playing and familiarizing the simpler specialized classes first. Ironically the hardest to play class and my pet peeve is the mage. It has one of the simplest movesets. However its glass cannon nature makes surviving a fight really tough. I hope WOW goes back to doing the talent trees they had before Cataclism. They were deeper and more engaging. The only change they need is lengthening to accommodate a raised level cap.
Somebody plays magic.
Medic: I shall slay all who dare oppose me and spill their blood upon the altar to the dark one who puts the quaver in your heart.
Knight: *blinks*
Medic: Where did you think those hit points came from? I don't heal anybody, I just move damage from you to those orphans tied up in my trunk
Knight: *picks up honorable profession, like thievery*
I loved how you brought up DoW...my favorite game series
i love the roguelites progression system where you unlock new possible unlocks at the end of each run..making later runs more varied or even have the possibility of haivng that one broken great run, Ziggurat being my favorite.
Warframe is a pretty good example of a game with a lot of grind but where the grind is fun and the progression rewarding.
Ehhh... the material grinding is decent, but the credit grind is not fun at all for me.
Eduardo Barreto but in general grinding in warframe consists mostly of survival missions which are usually pretty fun
Its just that you use credits for EVERYTHING, so even If I grind for 500.000 credits if you aren´t maxed out you use it all in half a second on mods, or new stuff.
huge exgaration like 100,000 credits will last you quite a while unless you waste them on thigns like transmuting mods
I've got 10 million credits and I've tried to no avail to use them all up. The trick to warframe is passive grinding. Enjoy the gameplay just doing random stuff and eventually you look and see you've got 2 full prime sets, tons of credits, and a kubrow you swear you didn't breed.
Wish Bethesda watched this when making Fallout 4...
I come from the future... great evil awaits you and even greater disappointment
@@JB-nf7yi Which game??
@@ViBoMe Fallout 76
76 is a bit better now, but fallout 4 is uhhh fucked
I'm working on a MMO and this was really useful thx
2:12 Dan Gilbert did a TED talk on happiness with decisions. While different from the always available to edit system, their test concluded that people were generally happier with their choices if they were not given the chance to change their choice later on.
What if a game had no player progression? For instance, you're given control of a character that one-shots everything up until about 1/8 of the way through the game, assuming you can actually hit them, and then things start to get tougher? Enemies take more hits, they use better tactics, etc. So your character has no (permanent) stat changes, just trods along through the enemies that they can, until you reach a point where it takes more skill to defeat an enemy, rather than simply beefing up your DPS by investing stat points correctly?
Eventually you'd reach a point where the game demands fast reflexes in order to just _survive_ a battle, instead of thriving in it.
Or would that not work?
I'm somewhat surprised that no one has responded to you. Yes there are some games that are already like that depending on how you look at it.
I believe you're describing something akin to Megaman here.
My thought was something like Celeste or Iconoclasts, where the game gives a set of tools and tells you to figure out the solution yourself.
Yeah those are the best.
This still is player progression, but instead of the player being the variable, the enemies and the world are the ones being adjusted
Talent Trees in WoW. Those were the days when it was still fun.
Fun. Okaaay. If you say looking up a cookie-cutter build, because 99% of all combinations were not effective whatsoever is fun, then whatever floats your boat I guess. lol.
You mean like the cookie cutter builds we still have? It's a numbers-based game, there will always be an optimal way to do things, your point is moot.
Zack M These talents offer more leeway, and have smaller "penalties" for not choosing the "optimal" build. For example, back in Warlords, the Paladin Lv15 talents. All 3 were good. Now, certain talents might have been better for certain raid bosses, but not everybody was a raider. All 3 talents are valuable. The person who does a lot of solo stuff might want the always-on but weaker speed buff. The raider will want the strong but short duration active ability. The guy who does dungeons, might want the holy power one. But yet, a raider isn't going to get killed just because he's got the always-on one, and the activated one isn't useless to the soloist.
Many of the talents were like this. Though, Rogue got hit with the "PvP Only" shaft, where the majority of their talents were only useful in PvP. They might have fixed that since, I dunno. I quit during Warlords and have not seen Legion.
Zack M I miss dual speccing into arcane and fire as a mage, glasscannon was the shit.
I like how your ending music was a remix from Splatoon, which just overhauled (and greatly improved) its progression system.
i appreciate this! Good one!
I like how POE has a skill tree that is massive, and has a few real game changers
POE?
Path Of Exile
Ah.
I love how it feels overwhelming at first and then once you get a bit used to the game, you figure out more and more ways to squeeze out the most out of it.
jean-sébastien dubé Yeah, I totally agree :)
Where does monster hunter fall in this?
Isn't it kinda both things?..
well kind of monster hunter is more like the things you buy doesn't. matter like in other rpgs instead you have to kill monsters and get their skin ans bone to make even better things then what you see in the shop (ores too forgot) which give you more money to buy traps and potions so you can stay out of the town for a long time before going back to restock. it adds more to the hunter espect letting you feel good that you killed over 40 monsters in one session because you know you'll have better armor weapons and other things it's a fresh idea that i dont think other rpg styles can do
תומר אילן Thomas here is right. MH falls on the skitter-box trap when grinding for rare items. Other than that, the desire to progress turns into desire to improve, which is MH big plus.
+תומר אילן Fortunately, the Shagaru Magala actually isn't even the final story boss (notice that you didn't even get a credits scene after that). And even after you beat the sort-of-actual "final" boss I think around caravan level 9 or 10, the single player still even has more after that. And I'll have to highly disagree with the attitude of the coprolalic ~12 year old that's been shouting at you as well. I barely touched the dlc at all (all *free* dlc by the way) and the amount of time that I've spent on this game was so much that I'm actually embarrassed to admit how much time I've spent on this game. If someone wants to get heated over a game that has 100+ hours of gameplay without its free dlc, then I guess that's their choice. If I were him, I'd save my energy on actual BS practices like day one *paid* dlc or *paid* dlc that's locked on the disc.
And to get back to your original question, I'll first say that unlike other progression systems nowadays, despite not even completing the game in its entirety, I tend to feel very accomplished whenever I beat a difficult boss not only because there's a lot of skill involved, but all the gear that you earned all used skill at some point. To me, this progression system kind of reminds me of megaman's of all things. At the start, you start out with limited tools, but after being able to beat one boss, you not only get the type of satisfaction you'd get reminiscent from Dark Souls, but you also get new tools to help you beat other levels and bosses.
Cuckoo Phendula Ye I know the shagaru isn't the final boss, they did this in 3U as well.
Also I erased all of his comments and blocked him, I wanted a discussion on MH grindy design, not a war over free dlc.
And speaking about that, I do think that MH isn't skinner box, since the progression does more then just slow you down (i.e. every armor have its own skills and slots, instead of just more def/res etc.) which adds more to how you play.
(Also I need to understand, where the the dlc monster ready on launch and weren't released, or just the equipment?.. Cause its far easier to make the equipment first and put in the game before the monster is ready.)
+תומר אילן
I posted this responding to someone complaining that MH doesn't gives you new abilities (which he defined as flashy new attacks):
"Monster Hunter is more about lateral progression, you get new opportunities with each new monster and then it is up to you to decide whether to upgrade or change your strategy.I, for example, always make a specific armor for eggs quest, another for gathering and my main build. I have also tried bombs/status builds and with those 2 I usually go for a different weapon (just to spoil my armor skills).
I feel like you underestimate how much the armor skills change how you tackle hunts, how does it affects your desire to try new things and how easily can be done (if you don’t know, characters are not tied to an specific weapon forever, they can change weapons and armors at anytime outside quest, thus changing the gameplay entirely by the players will)."
Resuming, I don't think it's a skinner box, plus the player have full control of the progression (and what type of progression).
We watched you in my history class today about the Punic Wars!
I gotta say...your using the picture of the card Brainstorm when talking about brainstorming tickled the Magic player in me. :P
I think random generations are the best way to spice up progression pyramids
Brad JackRabbit agreed.
I disagree. Although it probably depends on single player vs. multiplayer. In singleplayer its totaly fine, but multiplayers always have a competitive component and it sucks to "loose" a competition to bad RNG. Its the reason League and many other more competitive games get rid of RNG wherever possible.
Random generation doesn't always mean unrewarding. Multiplayer is always focused on reward, fair random generation gives the unluckier people more of a chance in my mind.
dota has ten times more rng than league, but no one is whining about it. players don't think 200% critical damage as reliable buff, rather the 33% more efficiency.
dota has ten times more rng than league, but no one is whining about it. players don't think 200% critical damage as reliable buff, rather the 33% more efficiency.
"Skill A Gained." Why did I read that as if Mario had said it? Skill a-gained!
Interesting music choice for the end... would be fun to hear some thoughts on the associated progression scheme and player retention mechanics.
Thomas Davis There are players at level 20+ when an expansion only recently made that possible. That is what player retention means.
Got so hyped for that brainstorm art, put those 2 cards back on top tho my friend.
Destiny loot cave? Would someone mind explaining that one to me?
Gear was essentially a random drop within the world, and there was a higher drop rate of legendary gear from normal enemies than there was from completing dungeon-style activities (Strikes)
This led to players looking to find the fastest spawn area for enemies, which ended up being a cave that would constantly spawn them if you stood far enough away.
A strike might take 15-30 minutes to get a small chance at a legendary drop, whereas shooting into a cave for 30 minutes gave you a ton of items and a good chance at 1-3 legendary drops.
This, combined with the fact that not all legendary "engrams" (unidentified) were actually legendary (most would identify to rare), led to people shooting into a cave for hours rather than actually playing the other parts of the game.
+Latham Hendrickson In Destiny, you level up by XP up to 20, after that your level increases based on a stat on your armor called light. Better armor was only attainable through RNG, and so developed a harsh grind to level up even by one level. The loot cave was the most efficient way to get armor to drop: 4 enemies spawn out of a cave, a group of people quickly shoot them as they run out, 5 seconds to reload, rinse and repeat until the cave is glowing with ammo, armor, and guns. In an hour you'd have a lot more drops doing this than actually playing the endgame content.
Fortunately, the grind has been reduced in recent updates and DLC, and the "light level" system is being completely revamped in a few weeks with the new DLC.
Hope this helps explain a little better, and I do hope EC does a video on Destiny one of these days, tons of interesting design choices in my opinion.
+TheRezro Was. I'm fairly certained they fixed the loot caves a few months back. Unless you're also referring to other stuff that wasn't mentioned here.
Darkunov yeah they fixed the loot cave a week or two after it was discovered
***** Fun reference to the loot cave:
Dying Light made a hilarious reference to the lootcave with a small outcropping accessed through an underwater tunnel where for a few minutes zombies would spawn from under a small rock crevice and once they were all killed, a message appears saying "Enough! Patch 1.0.2 activated. Better do some quests."
One of the best Easter Eggs in recent years.
KOTOR II has a good level up system. The whole game is great.
*fucking amazing
yeah :D
3:08 I found hilarious. Great drawing/art to go along with what he was saying!
Noice end music, it's so fresh
Was that Micheal J. Fox installing a toilet?
no mention of Monster Hunter?
Monster Hunter is kinda repetitive tho. Which is makes sense, not only from how the game designed but also from the studio track record (ahem...ahem.... Capcom)
well it makes sense...you need to build your own armor so you need to get a lot of materials
marxxplaysgames well, i only played Freedom Unite, so sorry if the game is bettet now, especially regarding story. But what make me stop playing it is how repetitive it is. U kill a monster, build an armor, kill another one, rinse and repeat until.... well forever.
well you need to keep upgraging your armory
Yeah, that's the whole problem. You NEED to keep upgrading your armory, which each time mean killing the same monster over and over...
I like the Paper Mario series' take on level ups. When you level up, you get a choice of levelling up HP (lets you withstand attacks longer) FP (lets you do more attacks per battle) and BP (increases the amount of passive and direct effects you can choose to have in a battle). You can't upgrade your attack stat, but instead find items that increase your base damage and let you progress through the story, which helps control the flow of the game and prevents you from one shotting enemies. You also get new moves and effects to do in battle by equipping badges (BP stat lets you wear more), which you find throughout the world/ can be acquired by trading in other collectibles. This means you improve through exploration and puzzle solving, and instead of getting "stronger", you gain more tools to use at your disposal. No attack stat also means that you won't be doing 543 damage, which is hard to measure, but will instead be doing 1-10 damage, which is easy to compare to other moves damages.
+ssf2fan349 I always use the AoE stomp in paper Mario with stacking damage. :D I'm a terrible player!
I would be really excited about a Civilization game where the all the aesthetics, culture, technology and mechanical traits of your civilization are completely determined by the resources available to it with respect to its natural environment.
For example, you wouldn't have a tech tree, so your discoveries would feel a lot more like discoveries. Instead, your technology would progress based on the actions you take, like the progression system in Skyrim. You gain knowledge (aka experience points) each time you build a certain building or unit, fight a battle or discover a new area. And the more you do anything, the better you get at doing it.
When you build multiple units of the same kind in the same city, that city (and only that city and others doing the same thing) gradually starts to build the next same units faster until it reaches a speed cap (because realism). Once these units fight and gain experience in battles, they will gain traits according to the terrain they fought in and the kinds of enemies they faced (some warriors can be better at hunting down spearmen while others can be better at killing other warriors, in forests or uphill).
Likewise, technologies such as steel would eventually become available in a city only after that city has used its forge for a period to produce a lot of iron-based units. There would be no preset number of actions--just a progression bar. If the national education level in that civilization is high enough, the leader can commission dedicated research facilities for certain techs its respective cities are experts at. Institutions and roads can help spread the tech to different cities.
Finally, units of the same category will also differ aesthetically and mechanically based on the environment of their cities of origin or after they stated in a certain environment for a couple of turns. Warriors from a city surrounded by forests will look and behave differently from warriors from a desert city. This can be fixed later with an institution to standardize weapons quality, bringing your army from a seemingly more tribal rabble to a real standing military.
To balance, a unit's traits in one terrain decreases the longer they fight outside of that terrain. These traits are then replaced with ones suited for their current environment. This means that an elite jungle unit may not have the necessary traits to fight in an urban setting. I stress traits instead of attack or defense points to allow more customization. Institutions can be created and enforced to make sure they at least go in with the most suitable equipment available to your race.
I don't know. I just think it would be very exciting to play this kind of game.
This is one of the reasons Skyrim is one of my favorite games.
Most of The Bethesda Games are good and replayable. My faviretes are Bethesda Games (and Total Wars) :D
coolnobodycares yeah i love skyrim too but it takes ages to level a lot of useful things up and getting the perks
Jannick Lumme
Not really lol
The only tedious things to level is smithing, enchanting, and alchemy but you only "need" those skills if playing on legendary difficulty.
coolnobodycares no my problem is like i want to have the perks of kinda everything but it takes a lot time to get enough perks
Terraria.... Need I say more?
Still worse than minecraft... Need I say more?
***** you cant change my opinion then say "opinions are opinions."
I like, and always will like Terarria more :D
Bandit Leader I like terraria more because it has more focus on combat and bosses, which I like. (e.g. I really like the gameplay of Kingdom Hearts.)
the krampus 2 woah shots fired pew pew
as a long time RPG AND RPGMMO fan, i say thankyou, for someone putting in to words what i have understood for a long time lol
Fantastic video!
I actually have a comment about something specific you brought up: the idea that a progression system can be used to teach the players over time specific elements of the game. This can work, but it NEEDS to have each item clearly laid out and the advantages of using it clearly spelled out. I have played game after game where a mechanic either isn't properly explained, or the advantages of using it are never clearly laid out to me (usually because I find what I was already doing more efficient or easier to do), only to hit a brick wall later in progression when those skills become %100 necessary to progress. I honestly cannot state this aspect strongly enough, as I find it happens most frequently in the MMO space you noted, but also it a lot of more action-oriented games . This is especially true when you unlock a new ability and they seem to feel you'll be so enamored with it that you'll just start using it all the time and learn it, where-as I tend to ignore any new abilities after learning how it functions because I have already become comfortable with the methods I already have and find this new wrinkle needlessly complicates things beyond my ability to keep track of. It really should be said that in addition to there being time to learn it, there need to be ways the game teaches you said ability is not just necessary, but important to spend the time to put into your kit.
theese guys need more subscribers these videos are really good they make you think how would you make a game
Thank you so much!
This stuff should help me with the game design block I've had.
I still love the original Borderlands though. It wasn't a chore to take out some more bandits. It was FUN! And sometimes you could find the coolest loot. As long as you have competent gear, then it's not a grind, but an exciting surprise to find a new totally awesome piece of gear.
Well also we cheated and hacked some stuff in so we can raid fhe vendors whenever we feel like it... but still, you often find much better stuff from encounters (as well as even worse bunk).
A couple great examples of progression systems I found came from two flash games: The Epic Battle Fantasy series (namely 2) and Crystal Story.
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The two have a very different way of approaching the progression system, but I find them both pretty impressive. Epic Battle Fantasy 2 eliminates grinding, putting you on a linear path where you can choose specific perks go your character as you progress. its your job as the player, not only to determine what skills and equipment best applies for your current battle, but also what perks and stat boosts will benefit you the most in the long run. it'd a very precise, focused form of progression, carefully built around the sequence of encounters you face.
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Crystal Story, on the other, hand, is an entirely different animal. while you have 4 characters that all have their own (mostly) unique equipment and skill trees, their role in battle can vary wildly based on what you equip them with and what skill tree(s) you choose to follow, since you can build on any three available trees for each character no matter how far you are into any one tree. This offers you an immense amount of freedom in choosing how you cover all your bases in battle. Do you build four distinct classes to have a consistent variety and flexibility in your battle method? Do you build your team to have one power class and back him up with three healers? Do you follow a specific skill tree to work your way to its most powerful techniques, or do you spread yourself thin across all three, trading that strength for more variety in utility.
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Final Fantasy did a lot of great things for JRPGs, but it also introduced a lot of bad tropes into the genre, most notorious of all the "spam attack and grind mobs and spam high damage spells on the bosses, but never use any special attacks because the mobs aren't worth it and the bosses are always immune" trope. And a lot of great JRPGs - even Ni no Kuni - have fallen into this trap. So its nice to see people who are putting this much thought into exploring the mechanical potential of a genre that doesn't have to go stale.
One JRPG that does this really well is Bravely Second. It features a job system that allows characters to be customized and put into specific roles rather than being stuck in one. There are a ton of stupid combos and skills, plus planning your build is very fun. I've restarted the game thrice just to progress through it again.
I love how almost everything mentioned in this video applies to Dark Souls.
Dark souls 2 tried to improve this formula with the ability to respec ones character but also unfortunately removed some of the influence progression has with the lore. Eg, reaching max rank in the chaos covenant and curing the fair lady in dark souls 1. Compared to simply getting shiner in dark souls 2.
BloodBorne, due to its lack of content missed a lot of the opportunity to make players think about their build when there was only a small handful of options per build. And lore? Well covenants had no progression so it was a real shame to see that go.
And as one would expect....many of the major Souls TH-camrs have moved back to dark souls 1 and 2 again.
Great video, it really explains how the players feel about the game.
Nice. This is a very good vídeo. You got a New follower.
Reminds me of how in Skyrim the first classes you'll encounter are thief, mage and warrior at the pillars near the first town you have to go to. Very basic but sometimes just the help you need to progress faster.
Another cool one is how you can create a character at the start of Oblivion but after the kind of lengthy tutorial you get to pick whether you'd like to keep your build or redo it before you enter the real game.
I still come back to this video. :)
the progression system in skyrin was awesome you always felt you were leveling up
Since this video is on the subject of progression systems, it got me thinking about progression systems in a PvP environment. So I'd like to suggest talking about progression systems in PvP games in a future episode at some point. What are the upsides, the downsides, what makes a good system for progression in a PvP setting and what makes a bad system, etc. I'm suggesting this because many games do it wrong, offering imbalanced rewards to the people who played the game longer, but a progression system isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Love your videos. I have a suggestion though. When you provide an example of a game using a system, concept, mechanic, etc, I would like to know more detail into how so. In this video, you used "Dawn of War" as an example of how it uses the progression system to form connections with the player and their units and whatnot but I would like to know HOW. Unfortunately I do not know every game's design nor do I feel like I must research the example game to get a clear image of the concept you are trying to comvey
XCom Enemy unknown (and Enemy Within) is a great example of how to do it right. Every level up your soldiers get, you make an important decision which forms to what role they actually play. Furthermore, the technology and the advanced equipment reward players who take risks with an opportunity for additional progress. Thus, progress isn't boring grinding but about taking risks and making decisions. That's especially true if you look at the iron man mode: since you may lose your soldiers when you make a mistake, the decision to take a risk is meaningful - and every battle is important.
I liked how in Final Fantasy XIII-2 you could choose what "class" you wanted to be after unlocking the first artefact. The game fixed all the mistakes the original XIII had, and made very well use of the progression system with the crystarium system. I'm thinking about making a game where everyone starts out with a certain class but can dual-class once they unlock it and spend points into unlocking the second class. It gives the player time to learn the initial class before going off the beaten path and customizing their experience... without creating an initial Mary Sue. XIII-2 had better potential than XIII, but it made that exact mistake where you could level up way too fast, resulting in a perpetual Level 99 character mid-game. Bosses fell like regular enemies at that point.
Awesome sonic figure of 8 legs drawing!
I have to say that Xcom EU's progression system definitely helped my get attached to my soldiers. Even though it isn't incredibly deep, I started thinking creating characters around my soldiers and thinking of in-battle dialogue they might be having and it made the experience a whole lot more fun :)