Crafting Is (Kinda) Pointless
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- Get the best discount of the year on Raycons! Now through the end of November, go to buyraycon.com/... to get 20% off your order!
I am back at it again with a video examining (read as complaining) a game mechanic that I think is underutilized in games. This time it is crafting. The idea of crafting in video games really appeals to me, but so often it ends up being used in ways that make it feel a little pointless. In this video, I try to take a look as to why, and also ways I would like games to try to address it. So this is my talking about why I think crafting is (kinda) pointless.
Twitch: / razbuten
Patreon: / razbuten
Discord: / discord
Twitter: / therazbuten
Edited by Isaac Holland: / drazgames
#Crafting #ConsumableItems #GameDesign
It is me, Razbuten, back at it with another "This Thing About Video Games Bothers Me" video. I hope you're all doing well, and let me know what you think about crafting. How would you like to see it used in games? Would you even like to see it used in games? Also, how is your day?
I am awake with blood in my hands
Kinda good morning to me today
I think Subnautica is a prime example of crafting done well. As discussed in the vid I really had to think about what I needed at any given time and it provided a self implied value to everything. I do like the minecraft crafting system to some degree as you actually have to remember recipes (previously). I would love to see a game in which you can craft with undefined item results. E.g. you are able to just tie different things together placed out on a table to ‘combine’ the two objects into something that is able to be used combining stats of the 2 items. This would bring up a lot of issues within the games mechanics and systems but is an interesting concept. Also my day is going alright :)
Tbh I agree with you, as a Spider-Man fan I far prefer unlocking suits through challenges, like in the older games. Crafting just destroys things and makes them less fun when put into places where its unnecessary.
Edit: I mean, Peter is a materials/Bio-medical technology scientist, building suits would be dope if it was more involved and not just holding the X button. And it would make a ton of sense.
Pretty good day. How was yours?
Not bad, thanks for asking
"It should be in a game cause it adds to it. Not just cause it checks a box."
Honestly this should be true for any mechanic in a game.
Sadly most videogame mechanics nowadays are there just to check boxes.
That IS what makes a good game.
Trimming the fat is not an easy task though, especially for less experienced creators (whether it be writers, painters or game devs). When you have the hoards of money that AAA companies have then yeah, QA and focus the thing down. But when we're talking actual small indie studios it might simply be a blemish of the creative, and honestly I'm perfectly fine with that as long as the game is playable. Human touch is a very important thing to have if you want your game to touch others.
*RPG leveling mechanics would like a word with you*
This also should apply to npcs and other characters...
I am definitely one of those players that saves everything until I "need them" the end result is I beat the game with all those extra buff potions and stuff that I never used.
Me too, consumables aren't good in my opinion.
I'm the same way. The only consumables I actually use are health potions. Until I get high enough level and then I rarely need those, but I never grow out of my paranoia of possibly needing them.
I think games need to train players to use consumables.
For example, imagine having to fight a massive berserker-ish enemy that glows red and stops to give a loud roar to make the player understand they have to buff themselves up if they want to have a chance against this guy... It'll also give them time to do so.
Some explanation also wouldn't hurt the first time.
I'm not talking about bosses, though.
The target of the consumables should be clearly just a slightly more difficult and "marked" obstacle that pushes the player to utilize items in order to more easily overcome them.
The important bit here is clearly conveying to the player when the developer thinks items should be used, since that will remove the player's uncertainty about when items are required so they will feel more at ease with spending them (if your crafting/collection system is annoying they might still avoid using items).
I'm also having fun thinking about how some players are bound to be spiteful and keep everything even when encountering marked obstacles just to show they don't need help... :)
Witcher 3 did consumables perfectly. You only need to craft a potion once with ingredients. After having used potions in combat, they replenish the next time you meditate. So you never feel like drinking a potion goes to waste. Unless it's a big fight and you can't meditate anytime soon.
Playing Witcher 3 on harder difficulties makes the crafting even more satisfying. You can't just hack&slash your way through every monster anymore, you need to actually use relevant Witcher oils and potions to give yourself a fighting chance. And you find yourself actively looking for new recipes to buy and hunt ingredients for.
Same here, I've just learnt to use consumables whenever I encounter a boss freely, or whenever I think I have too much of a consumable.
Kingdom Come Deliverance does potion brewing right. You actually have to follow recipes and perform actions, and the better you get at it, not only does it look like you went from sheepishly pouring everything and slowly pulling the bellows to a master alchemist brewing with ease, it also feels like it. I think in the sequel they're planning on implementing forging, and I hope its just as fun.
Even the sharpening already feels like a proper maintenance process, and the fact that using the grinding wheel is an alternative to a rather expensive consumable (and gives you a good bonus with a certain perk) really makes the player do it regularly and get better at it.
Now all they need is a fun combat system
@@madman_media Deliverance's fencing is one of the best in action rpg genre.
Though I admit it would be better if there was less emphasis on swords.
@@AnMComm There are at least three issues with the combat system.
1. Like you said the focus is on swords but in lategame maces are the absolute winner.
2. Combos are almost useless since if you don't hit the entire combo it's wasted. Even parries stop it. So you eventually go to clobbering them like a wildman.
3. It just doesn't work well on anything that isn't a duel. THe lock-on is very hard and it feels like you are stuck on one enemy or you don't lock on at all and you only swing your weapon in one way like a wildman.
@@jasperzanovich2504 There was this one combo I remember that you could just spam and win any fight. Top ->Right ->Bottom Left
"uhh anyway, heard about raycon?" 10/10 transition
I try
Was gonna like your comment but I had to keep it at 69 ;)
@@maxcasteel2141 reddit moment
@@apdo6028 ooga booga woman bad Elon Musk 2024 my wholesome award where?
@@zedaddy3530 keanu chungus
Me: *crafts hundreds of consumables, never uses them*
Also Me: "Why am I always over-encumbered??"
ikr
Also me, next time I'm selling stuff off: Why am I carrying 500 potions?
The thing is, these games don't give us the opportunity/situation to use the consumables other than being part of the side-quest's progression.
It's like "oh wow. I've got all this health potions but the game's enemies are too easy/chunky so I never need to use them" or "who needs attribute bonusses when I can just get better armor from the convenience store". Better yet "why raid the dungeons at all if a pleb farmer's got better gear than the edge-lord necromancer in bunt-hole caverns?"
Sometimes even poisons you can get in loot chests are better than the rogue's poison ability.
-
It's all just clutter that looks useful but aren't.
If anything, they're just extra gold.
cries in new vegas making like 50 weapon repair kits then getting jury rigging :’(
i do think crafting was well done in this game though. All the best food comes from crafting (the food you find around the world is really bad because it’s like 200 years old) and I like the focus on recycling ammo
Also me, always running around with several different armor sets, just in case I'll need extra fire resistance.
...and never using the potions for that.
One of the reasons I like the crafting in The Forest is because your character lays out your items on a tarp when you open your inventory. This way you actually see all the things you have with you.
There's some logic to that, since he's on an island -- crafting would be the only way to HAVE gear. Of course, the tarp makes me think "holy cow, I can run with this load?? Why do I lose fights -- I'm a BEAST!!"
what is the game at 2:27?
@@Whereismykarlooks like far cry 5, judging by the "cult outpost" objective. Never played it though, so I could be wrong
@@unsuspiciousdweller8967 thanks
same with Green Hell
"oh boy, I just defeated the space lava spider demons in this secret underwater sanctuary! I hope there's something good!" *box of popsicle sticks and a pack of gum*
If you mix it with a demon soul it creates a livepop, an demon-like gigant lolipop that deals massive damage and stuns enemies. The hardest part is finding the lolipop
@@usernametaken017 really?
@@ZomboidMania i read in the game wiki
@@usernametaken017 okay, thanks
@@usernametaken017 I don't even know what game you are talking about but thanks anyway
Already agreed. I’d rather do a hard task to get one thing I need, rather than several mundane tasks just so I can craft a thing I need.
Gotra find this rare thing to craft this item that's ONLY used for crafting to make a tool to get a resource to make an item used only for crafting an item thats used for crafting a dozen items, so you have to repeate the previous steps to get all the usable items.
Monster Hunter and The Last if Us I thinl use crafting to the greatest effect. TLoU I crafted a molotov mid combat which gave me the edge I need since I had 1 bullet and 3 enemies left. MHW, I ran out of an item and couldn't return to camp to restock, may have carted if I wasn't prepared.
Me too, they should just reward you with items, not necessarily crafting items. However, it adds to games like Monster Hunter, it adds to games like skyrim. If they add to the world or the narrative or let you craft something it makes a game better sometimes. I especially like how in skyrim enchanting lets you name the item. Though it deoends on how realistic it should be. If it is just a menu it would be better to give you the currency, and just buy something. It should only be there if it adds realism, or a challenge like in monster hunter.
And rather permanent crafting with skill/level development in terms of equipment then just consumable crafting, I really hate consumables (or rather how useless they are) in most games
@@personpersonson7958 no, I’d rather earn that badass Legendary Daedric sword like you used to in Morrowind, not create god knows how many iron daggers until my character magically knows how to make that sword.
@@Grandmaster-Kush Yeah I always say, thats cool. I will use when it gets tough. But then I never use them.
I found that the Tinkers Construct mod for minecraft nailed the feeling of “actually crafting” perfectly well!
I think that base minecraft does crafting perfectly well. It is intrinsically linked to every aspect of the game, and the UI where you craft is unique and interesting IMO.
I personally love Terrafirmacraft for that. It makes what is simple to craft in vanilla a lot harder (and also a bit more realistic), but also a lot more interactive and you actually feel like you earned everything you craft.
For example, in TFC, you can't punch a tree, and you can't craft wooden tools. Instead, you need to collect rocks from the ground and knap them into tool heads (which you then add to sticks, which you can also find on the ground or by breaking leaves blocks). And you actually have a UI for the knapping process, in which you have to actually shape the rock into the shape of the tool head you need. It's heavily recommended for newcomers to the mod to have the wiki ready or to have NEI/JEI installed, because some of the shapes can seem a bit weird at first glance (while others are a lot more intuitive).
You can't craft a stone pickaxe, though, and for planks, you'll need a saw. You need metal for both. Processing ores and crafting tools out of metal is a whole other crafting experience (at first involving little bits of ores scattered on the ground and clay molds in the shapes of the tools needed, but later involving multiblock structures for smelting and anvils for forging), but it would be too long to describe in its entirety here. The tl;dr is : It takes a lot of time and effort to get your first pickaxe (or saw, as it's often the more important one of the two because planks are very useful), but when you get it, you actually feel like you earned it because of the time and effort you put into it.
There's many more things like that, and more. Whole different food system, with different crafting recipes for food stuff (for example, to make bread, you have to grind the grain with a handmill, and then mix the flour with water to create dough, and then cook the dough); whole different biomes and new animals (including hostile ones); new system for husbandry; a lot of types of stones, ores, metals (including many alloys); revisited gravity; etc.
It makes the game quite complicated, so it's not for everyone. It also has its flaws, mainly the part where you have to be a bit lucky with world generation... While it probably won't prevent you from getting your first metal tools within the first few days of your game (unless you're extremely unlucky, which did happen to me once), it can and often will screw you over later in your progression, where you have to put a stupid amount of time into just trying to find one specific resource you need... (Graphite, amirite, TFC players?)
But damn, I love this mod so much despite its flaws. I recommend to anyone who wants some challenge in their crafting journey.
@@Mercure250 I came to the comments to see if some mentioned TFC. It's the ultimate example of a game being committed to crafting. Everything in the game is about the process of making things. It's great. I wish I had the patience to get very far in it.
Such a great mod.
i feel quite mixed on minecraft mods that "add" complexity to crafting since the base system is very good as is. not that these mods are necisairily bad, ive def had fun with them but they often just add more steps and make it more grindy to be "complex" which, while fun in the right setting, is definitly not better than the base game.
i think the mods that add to the crafting the best are the ones that dont particularily change the base crafting or make it grindy, but rather mods that make it more involved by making multiblock structures that you have to build up yourself (like Create or Immersive Engineering) since that way you feel like you're actually making something instead of interacting with one or multiple UIs
There's also a very high difference in excitement/satisfacton level between _"You beat Ignitorax, the Fire Mage boss! You get Inferno, the Flame-Sword as your reward!"_ and _"You beat Ignitorax, the Fire Mage boss! Your reward is 16 Fire Gems that you might be able to use to make or upgrade fire-based weapons at your next crafting station, if you have the right recipes and some additional materials."_
and if you wind up having 2 Fire Gems too few to craft that Flame-Sword you've had your eyes on, well, my friend, come to the xbox live store where u can buy a pack of 10 for $19.99 :^) and also we'll only let you purchase points to buy those gems in packs of $50 so unless you get more you'll have wasted thirty dollars, but they're only in multiples of $19.99 so you won't round out to $0 left in your points wallet so you'll spend the rest of your life with the sense that you're leaving money on the table by not re-downloading our game and buying more fake currency to try to not waste money
@@tabula_rosa stonks
This kind of reminds me of Dark Souls unfortunately ):
@@Evanz111 please, getting an unique boss soul is different from just getting some upgrade material.
@@noop9k considering the boss souls were just unique upgrade materials they have a point, though the fact that each boss soul made more than one unique item and the fact that you could only make one of those items does help make the boss souls a better mechanic than generic crafting materials like the titanite.
Okay, but being able to hoard hundreds of useless items in games appeals to the goblin side of my brain.
Lmao
I wish my brain only had one goblin side...
@Babydoll I'm a goblin elemental.
the goblin side of your brain is... bad. a goblin...
@@Konradix05 more like my brain is a smooth sphere with only side that says "grab stuff and hoard them forever"
My favorite games are always the ones where crafting is a mini game in itself. It actually makes me feel like I'm in the world doing the thing.
0:53 square clouds with realistic textures scare me
Therapist: square clouds with realistic clouds can't hurt you
Square clouds with realistic textures:
Liminal spaces
Seriously, what shader is that?
@@xenokingdom3630 It's PTGI
I instantly noticed that myself
Crafting is shoved in "so many games."
I legitimately heard "Sony Games" and i still agreed.
This says alot about society
While he praises sony's highest selling series
The way he says things and his credibility’s makes agree with whatever he says
@@commanderleo The Last of Us
Nothing feels better than playing Last of Us, feeling hopeless in an encounter but finding two bullets, some sugar and some tape and going "I can make this work."
I'm playing it for the first time, and I have felt that way too many times already
@@angusperson4222 it’s a great feeling, that crafting system works really well with its world
Haven't even watch the video yet, but you're spot on. Crafting is only good when this is choice with what to do with your resources. Do I use the bandage for a first aid kit or a Molotov? Would it be better to make a shiv just in case or save for a shrapnel bomb? It's options that made people love crafting so much in the first place.
@@DaRkPlUm EXACTLY! I literally used that exact example the other day. It’s so engaging and places you in the game so well
It feels even better because the crafting happens in real time through the backpack.
I've found that in most games, crafting systems have been more invasive than helpful.
They only work as a core mechanic. It works with Minecraft and Subnautica because crafting is the main focus and way to progress. Breath of the Wild also has it done very well even if it's not a core mechanic because of the lack of set blueprints like an item shop or blacksmith in Skyrim.
@@SkinSlicer I think minecraft crafting is really dull. The only thing it really does it make you think about spending resources.
@@SkinSlicer I forgot Breath of the Wild even had crafting.
It kind of just flows with the gameplay
@@maximellow5745 yeah same altough its more like a cooking system right?
@@matthiasvandijken25 there are a few other things you can craft (like ancient armor and weapons in the akkala tech lab)
4:56 “inventory space is pretty limited”
*Laughs in putting lockers on every square inch of the submarine.*
I literally farmed hundreds of titanium to fill a 3x3 grid of X connectors with the densest layout of lockers possible
weeeell it is funny to go in the lost river with the cyclops
When I tell you that I only had a quarter of what I needed with my entire bottom deck being lockers and having 6 more lockers in the docking area, that is straight facts
@@memeintomori7161 99% of my subnatica experience is crafting lockers and more rooms to put said lockers in.
I should go play subnatica again.
that's like filling a skyscraper with chests in minecraft XD
For me, Subnautica is the gold standard for a crafting game. It wasn't just that you crafted simply to go deeper and further into the game (though it's definitely a large part of the gameplay loop), but it was that nearly every item you crafted gave you new abilities or had some practical use to it and were rarely just purely cosmetic. The improved diving tanks weren't necessary but you'll definitely have an easier time if you do make the effort to craft them. It helped that the game world was unique, beautiful, and interesting because it was always exciting to venture into a new biome, not knowing what new things you would see (both good and bad). The narrative played a huge part because those logs left behind really do flesh out this alien world and what is going on behind the scenes, and give you just enough breadcrumbs to pique your curiosity and keep you pushing further and deeper into the unknown with equal parts wonder and terror.
While I generally have never been a huge fan of crafting in games, or find it mediocre busy-work, at best, in Subnautica it felt super rewarding and not a burden or annoying in any way. I think my only gripe with the game was that I had to resort to Google a few times because I just had no clue how to find or do certain things. I guess you can technically figure it out if you read every single inch of every single file you find, which i admittedly didn't do when it came to most things that didn't relate to the narrative. It wasn't bad in the first game, but in the second game I ended up hating it because it was like every 30 minutes I had to resort to Google because I just didn't have the information on hand while trying to do 3 things in a single trip.
Subnautica works because crafting items and using them is the main core of the whole gameplay loop. Games like that, with a huge focus on Survival+Basebuilding are basically meant to have crafting. Yes it also has a story and lots to explore, but the main "game" you play is gathering and building stuff. And i don't think anyone criticises those games for having crafting or asks if they need it. The video was more about games that have a very different gameplay loop with a focus on story telling or character development for example, where crafting is more of a side-gig and in which it often feels like you don't actually need or want it in there.
Subnautica fans when their survival game has crafting
Cheeky of you to mention "Not wasting the player's time" while scrolling through the Animal Crossing crafting menu.
Fish bait moment
Multi craft fucking when?
@@HealthyWC-2 Never. You craft the way Nintendo wants or not at all 😂
I loved seeing that
YoU'rE nOt SuPpOsEd To RuSh ThE gAmE
I think crafting is best when used as discovery, as in when you have to figure out the recipes yourself, but in order to do this you have to do a good job of keeping the crafting recipes consistent, this would also work best with the Minecraft system of crafting where you have to put items in a certain place. I love the idea of using an ore to make a new pickaxe, then finding a new, rarer, ore and making a new pickaxe based on what you know about the recipe for a last pickaxe. You can also use properties of materials, like a plant that works really well as a firestarter which could make something like fire arrows, to help explain the crafting recipes of materials without just telling the player outright.
That sounds cool
One of my best Minecraft memories back in Beta 1.8 was when I figured out that glass was made by heating up sand in a furnace. On my own; not because I read it in a wiki or a walkthrough, but because of my real-world knowledge. I felt so fucking smart (for an 11-year-old). Now, this doesn't mean that you have to know how glass is made IRL to progress in the game, but intuitive crafting systems instead of recipe-based ones are much more satisfactory.
Also, crafting systems where you actually have to do something instead of just pressing a button. Perhaps a minigame to heat up the forge to the correct temperature, hammer the sword in the right places, etc; and you could actually get good at it, instead of abstractly levelling up. Something like the sword sharpening minigame in Kingdom Come, but a tad more advanced.
Just my long 2 cents.
I think that's part of what made Subnautica's exploration so incredible, because there was always the element of discovering new resources and potential crafting options, in addition to discovering new areas, creatures, and world elements. And I say that as someone who finds the Minecraft gameplay loop wholly uninteresting, interestingly enough.
For some reason I remembered mod called Terra Firma Craft with that fucking insane crafting systems...
@@ЕвгенийЕфимов-й7н EthosLab still plays, its a pretty interesting series
I find crafting and repairing in The Long Dark very satisfying. You explore an area or brave the weather to go check your traps and collect resources, then struggle home under the weight of your haul, warm your space against the dark night and mend your boots with rabbit fur so you don't lose your toes in the night.
Boots arent repaired with rabbit fur. Or did I miss an update? You can have deerskin boots though
Another important aspect of TLD’s crafting is that, while it doesn’t require skill, it does require strategizing. In a game where every minute that passes means losing hunger, thirst, and potentially warmth, there’s always a trade-off with crafting. You can’t just sit there and spam-craft dozens of items unless you’ve collected tons of food and water, and even then you’ll run out eventually. Part of learning the game is learning how to craft efficiently. The only thing that sucks about TLD’s system is that repair and crafting success rates are largely out of the player’s control. I’d much prefer a skill-based system where the risk of failure comes from inexperience rather than rng.
@@breck1637 yep! i was thinking about this--it is fairly repetitive, but it's such a time intensive decision that it means a lot in the scope of the game. it's also cool that you craft nearly everything you have (aside from things you find, like rifles andman-made clothing--although even those you have to repair eventually). i love that game so much i've been waiting for it to go on sale on switch forever. i miss it
@@breck1637 oh! and just read the rest of your comment--in survival mode, it IS based on skill! your character starts w a base skill of 0 for all skills, but as you spend more time in the world and do things more often, you can raise all those skills to a 5 over time. for example your arrows are weaker and you have more sway while aiming when your archery skill is low, but at level 3 you can kill a bear with a couple well-aimed shots! also, if you play a LOT of hours in survival mode and last a certain number of days, you get these buffs that you can choose for a character every time you start a new world, and some of them affect your skill level. i think there's one called "proficient survivalist" or something like that which makes all your skills start at 3--which can be nice if you don't wanna spend 20 hours failing at firestarting half the time (infuriating)
@@ellw7830 Haha I'm aware, what I was referring to specifically with crafting (also applies to repairing and fire starting) is that when you hit "begin crafting", you just sit there and watch a timer. Any chance of failure is purely rng, hence out of the player's control. I probably should've said minigame-based system instead of skill-based to be clearer. Basically something interactive, like how if you want to hunt, forage, travel, pretty much do anything in the game, you have to actually do it. In most games crafting is supplementary so I get why its like that, but in a game where crafting, repairing, and fire starting are core features, having them be a glorified loading screen is disappointing.
Crafting can be good but most of the time it's just used as a way of avoiding fetch quests since instead of just doing random things to get an item you get the resources in place of a list of tasks to craft the item
That makes a lot of sense on the devs side. There’s less of a need to make NPC’s talk to people when players can do-it-themselves.
@@shinygekkouga52 What about Dead Rising games? It's not in-your-face and not required, but if you do craft it adds variation to the gameplay. Plus, its so simplistic with the colored icons and schematics. I love trying out crazy weapon combinations, and food/drink mixes are neat stat boosts.
Shops with extra steps
One of my favorites in crafting in a game that is not centered around it is "Kingdom Come". In alchemy you actually have to create the potion. Sharpening a blade, you have to make the wheel turn and angle the blade with certain amount of pressure. It is just amazingly done and also fun because it feels like you are doing something
KCD is the gold standard in simulation gaming. There’s a lot to do as just day-to-day existence, but manages to never really feel dull or stale or chore-like. It all remains interesting, especially as your skills increase. It probably helps that you aren’t a prodigy able to quickly master every task set before you. You’re just some peasant, and you need to learn how to actually DO shit and then practice it until you become proficient.
Me: Trying to escape realism
Games: Here this gameplay mechanism is realistic
Me: ...
Me: Trying to escape realism
Hades: "THERE IS NO ESCAPE"
so you craft molotovs and medkits irl?
@@oddless1972 Yes we can.
@@OnlyCitrus You can... but why would you? that is the escapism some games offer. Yes i can go and drive over people irl or i could just play GTA idk
@@Webi this is about crafting. Sometimes it just makes its so irritating.
"Alien: Isolation" has an on-the-fly crafting system that while not necessarily taking up much time, provides a good example of a game where crafting is intensely useful and nerve-wracking because it won't pause when you go to check if you have the right items or supplies in stock. You need to prepare as much as you can with stuff as you go along, but will need to use many of the items and often can't craft everything in the menu because materials are sparse.
Absolutely spot on I agree. This is one of the very few examples when I did not mind crafting. It made sense, it had a purpose for achieving the objective and it was minimal and simple to use, perfect for this type of game. If only other devs would take note...
Alien: Isolation might be the only game where I actually regularly used the consumables.
same for resident evil 5
What you described is contradictory though and only works in Survival Horror to a degree.
You can't pause to craft so you get to a safe spot to craft. The issue with this is that means the player will waste their limited materials if they try to plan ahead. The result is players sticking to simple always reliable items.
More unique or niche ones which might have high payoff or save your life... go unused or become noob traps.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Alien also deals with that as the alien adapts to you if you keep using the same strat the aliens reactions change it doesnt get distracted by noice makers as much conversly the flame thrower starts scaring it even when just pointed at it
100% agree with this crafting philosophy. if i need 300 budoompuses and i need to gather 4 quomduks and 2 kwukies and combine them together to make 15 budoompuses, it really makes me wish they made quomduks and kwukies less excessively abundant and gave some more weight to the crafting so that maybe i only need one budoompus and i don't need to sit there for 45 minutes watching a crafting bar fill in over and over again, or just mash the craft button until i see the number 300 pop up.
Every single video this man makes has a moment where I realize he has put into words something I’ve felt for years.
Yes thank you! I was looking for this comment.
He got my sub today for exactly this reason
@@linkplayer20 for me as well on a different video from 2020 but still today
Interesting take. I think you might have missed the fundamental problem, though, one that is shared with many game mechanics and design principles. I'm talking about the difference between what we _imagine_ something will be like and what that thing _actually_ is like.
For instance, when we imagine MMO games, we picture ourselves experiencing something like what the named characters in .Hack and Sword Art Online experience: a world where our personal narrative is unique, where we become famed heroes known by all players, where we carve out an alternate, digital life. In reality, everything our characters do is something that every other player will also do, word of our adventures will spread nowhere, and the digital world is too static and immutable too be anything like a life. The truth is that for most people, the first M in MMO is hardly _ever_ relevant to our experience. If you play solo, other players might as well not exist. If you spam LFG and play with randoms, that's no different from a squad-scale game with random matchmaking. If you play with a guild, then you play with them and all other players might as well not exist. None of this means that MMOs are bad, merely that they don't match the implicit, unconscious, unspoken desire.
Crafting is similar.
The dream at the heart of crafting is _not_ to collect ingredients for a recipe. The dream is to do something _without_ a recipe-something that's unique to us-or to solve a problem in a way that's unexpected. Crafting from a list of prescribed recipes is no different from shopping from a list of items; it just uses a different currency. What makes the prospect of crafting compelling is the possibility of combining components in ways that the game doesn't expect.
Imagine if Morrowind's spell crafting system, instead of letting you combine components to create whatever spells you wanted, provided you with a list of approved spells and didn't let you make anything else. Conversely, imagine if Skyrim's smithing system didn't just give you a list of approved products, and it instead let you combine components and produce results purely from some algorithm rather than a predetermined list.
The crafting we want is algorithmic. The crafting that disappoints is list-based, whether hidden or not.
Good analysis. In some games like Minecraft the recipe system works, but in that situation crafting is essentially the mode of progression rather than being part of a story. Most games with crafting only limit progression or add something to the side, when in those games it might be better to not have it or have the algorithmic crafting.
That's why mmo is a semi dead genre.
They never try to evolve the massive, they just make it more casual and more appealing to a wide audience.
The old point of mmo, is that you play a role in a group, and do it.
The only progression from here, is pretty much playing limited roles in a massive chess board game, except that's too hard to manage.
Wow never really fully did that premise, and their engine was based on an RTS.
Allot of mass pvp games ended up falling short by the end of it, mostly because of how difficult it is to balance out hordes of players, let alone, have the core gameplay revolve fully around how the mass behaves in the world.
So, games just narrow the scope, and you end up being alone on an mmo.
@@Shimamon27 There have been a _few_ games that took steps towards the MM part of MMO, but they've been few and far between. They've also never blown up the way WOW did, so they didn't shape later games.
Allowing players to permanently affect the game world (as in Shadowbane, for example) is a way to make the MM part matter. If the effects of large scale player action (or inaction) can be felt organically across the game world, then it _matters_ that the game has thousands of people playing.
Static worlds, by contrast, exist specifically to limit the effect of other players' actions on any other player. Whether there are a thousand other players or none, you and your buds will complete the same quests, explore the same dungeons, and fight the same bosses. This is good for casual players and those who can't (or won't) dedicate themselves to the game like it's a second job, but it does reduce the importance of the MM aspect.
@@Shimamon27 EvE used to buck that trend by having every ship players flew in game, made by other players. They had an honest economy. But in the last few years, crafting was nerfed to counter the super corps in null and the game was made more basic and generic. It lost that feel that i used to love. I used to build all my own ships, I remember mining for a month straight to build a carrier. Even if i was mining solo, other players would show up at the belts that made it so nice. Some would mine, some would pirate, some would hunt npc mobs. but you eventually got to get familiar with the other players living in system. It was nice. Now, you have to be part of a corp that is big enough to crack moons to build any big ships. my days of solo capital ship building ended and i have not logged in since. I miss the long nights just mining while sipping a beer and reading a book, occasionally shooting the shit with people in local chat.
@@FuImaDragon These are the type of experiences you can only gain in an mmo based mmorpg.
1. You can actually role play... Pirate, builder, miner, contractor, whatever... And it's an actual role with a function in the world.
2. You can see your small part making a difference in something huge - The ships you made , after all, went into epic battles.
3. You constantly are affected by the presence of others - The trade of ships, the risks of pirates, the other miners etc', the game is alive and affects you in your space there as well.
The feeling of linking parts and a breathing world makes simple actions feel much bigger than they are... Because you know their influence.
However, it's kinda niche... Hard to pull off, and can be extremely frustrating to casual/new players, because it's odd giant worlds in which they don't have a scripted path to follow,and balancing around them is a nightmare.
That's exactly why there's a very starving audience in the mmo community - They want the mmo feel and keep not getting it.
Allot of it is just how technically it's hard to make a good mmo experience.
And, we can't ignore the fact that "Nerd" is gone.
Everyone and their dog are gamers nowdays, and companies keep trying to bank off the huge consumer market, rather than their niche stable and small community.
I have a good example of simple, unobtrusive crafting done well in a Triple AAA Video Game: Dead Rising 2
Crafting Recipes were really simple in that game, usually only two to three items, but inventory space was INCREDIBLY valuable and very limited in the beginning of the game, and some items were so large they had to be carried, not stored.
However... discovering what tongue and cheek, rediculous yet undeniably badass items and weapons you could make from everyday store items was a blast and often a laugh, and in some cases the weapons you could make were SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful or reliable than what you could find in the open world map.
The first game also did this to a much lesser extent by providing a drink recipe system. You could craft health items with food by using blenders sparsely populated in stores around the game map, but certain combinations of items would get you health drinks with unique and often powerful abilities, like tripling your movement and attack speed or upping the spawn rate of a powerful drop item.
Very well said! Dead Rising 2's crafting was amazing.
(It's "tongue in cheek" ... sorry.)
Yeah though I think that one improvement that has been made in other triple A games. Is allowing you to store your crafting materials in a safe location.
However I think there needs to be more of a punishment for doing so. Like respawning all the enemies back in the areas you visited every time you return to base.
Its tedious and lazy
I feel like more games should implement ways to "carry" supplies, your inventory space should be based on the size of the items and the amount of pockets/pouches your equipment has, unless you've got a _really_ big backpack, there's absolutely no way you'd be able to walk around with a jerry can of gasoline just sitting in your inventory.
shoutouts to subnautica. Playing in hardcore mode in subnautica is the first and ONLY time I have ever crafted every item in a game because they were literally all useful to some degree.
The pathfinder tool? Incredible. The air bladder? Life saver.
I have some qualms with the inventory management of subnautica, but the crafting system specifically is so top notch. Superb video, Razbuten. Loved it
Subnautica is honestly a Top Ten Game of the 2010s
I loved hardcore mode until I hit myself with my seamoth and died about 6 or 7 hours in
@@zimmy834 I too loved subnauticas hardcore mode. Only thing was that I died right before I could construct the final part of the escape rocket due to a glitch when I boarded my second cyclops. Luckily I had watched a let's play so I knew how the game ended
I did a hardcore playthrough a few months back, the beginning was really good and intense but I died to a glitch near the late game. Thankfully I backed up my file but I died again soon after due to some other glitch. In the end I edited the save file to not be hardcore and still managed to beat it without dying but man.. It's such a great game but such a shame it's so buggy. I've fallen out of my cyclops so many times its not even funny
This is one of my issues with breath of the wild, I could cook a really fulfilling meal that recovers all my hearts in one go, or I could just stuff a dozen apples down my throat and not worry about gathering the ingredients and finding a pot. I could make a powerful potion, but why bother when it doesn’t significantly affect how I interact with the game?
Literally I hate having to craft food and potions so the first thing I did when in the cold and hot areas was to speedrun some gear. I didn’t want to worry about catching bugs all the time
Or use a single hearty item and get full recovery.
You can farm like 10 heart durians every few days from the same location. Recovery items shouldn't be a problem at all.
Food can also give you immunity to weather effects, extra hearts, and is more efficient than eating 30 apples
Or you can make your own fun in the game with potions.
I literally cannot play a game these days without picking up every single thing I find. It sucks.
Just don’t. Lol
@@Purriah it's compulsion
@@Purriah in some games
you actually get punished for that though, because then you have to run and go search for a rare thing, or end up with too low ressources. And that makes it a habit for lots of players.
Hoarder mindset takes a while to get out of it, eventually you'll have the "ahh whatever" thought and just move on (with pain)
A way to combat that, is realize you were never really going to use those consumable items in the first place. That, and developers tend to overpopulate their worlds with items so people who might miss something, usually get multiple chances to find it again. Even if you miss something completely, there’s usually a way to farm it if you *really* need a lot of it.
Most games with crafting systems only have them for two reasons: 1, they're "expected" to have it. 2, they exist to pad the playtime without adding additional content.
You're not wrong but I'd say there are levels to that. Take BotW for example. The crafting there is a) completely optional and b) further incentivizes to Explore the nooks and crannies of all the regions of the world. Granted, some of the armor upgrading steps still feel like a chore if you choose to do them all, but it nevertheless encourages the Player to go off the beaten path and explore, which kinda was the point in that game.
@@-siranzalot- that’s a game that does crafting well though. The things they said don’t apply because botw’s crafting actually adds to the experience
@@-siranzalot- yes but BotW also does a bit more than just spread stuff around for exploration incentives, most things require the player more than just stumble into and then pick them up. Monsters need to be killed for their body parts, bugs need to sneak up on to catch them, trees need to be climbed for their apples (or "shaken") etc not to mention the dragons. All of these are more or less valuable and variable gameplay, not just mindless collecting
And stardew valley has good crafting as well since it isnt technically required but it would help alot if you did, also you have to go hunt down rare resources in specific spots which makes it less of a grind.
Speaking of padding time, WoW is notorious for that. Global Cool Down because Azeroth forbid that you can make flasks at max level for raiding purposes, just multiples for you group. No! One per every Real Time 24 hours, sometimes even real time weeks. I mean F----!!!!!
There is even a weekly cool down for a purple crystal ball in Jewel Crafting that has no purpose. The crafter can't use it, nor give it away. By the time you can make it, the value of a few silver coins can make you just delete it. To add insult to injury if you try to sell it on the AH, the service fee is in gold, meaning that you will owe the AH gold, if it somehow sold.
interesting, I had a completely different experience with FO4, i spent a massive amount of time building my base and upgrading and customizing weapons and armour. I think the base becomes quite usefull late game as you can set up markets and actually buy things from your settlers, giving you a really good supply of relatively cheap, easy to access ammunition and other gear, as well as a place to store all your excess shit.
I know I'm super late to this video, but games like FO4 are exactly the kind of game I think needs crafting. The games with survival elements, especially those in A WASTELAND, where scavenging is going to be an important part of surviving. Personally, I think it makes sense in a game like that thematically. Useable screws, gears, anything you can salvage is valuable.
My experience with FO4, the crafting was tedious and frustrating because it took too much weight. You can never get the right materials and when you finally craft something useful or effective. Right idea but the wrong execution
Late answer, Base is simple , MAKE MONEYY, crafting upgrading items mostly . I think also is great way to do it .
Also fucking artillery cannons
"NOOOO!!! YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO LIKE WHAT I DON'T LIKE!!!!"
😡😡😡😡
Crafting systems in most AAA titles have the same problems as RPG elememts: They add absutely nothing to the experience, just busywork bullshit that gives the impression of progress.
THIS!
I love RPGs and I want more. San Andreas was my fav GTA game partially because of the RPG mechanic. That said, if you aren't gonna care for the system, then just don't add it. Yes, I love Final Fantasy and Pathfinder, but I also enjoy Crash Bamdicoot and Sonic. We don't need an RPG in every game.
And yet nobody is able to just look at witcher 3 and admit that it'd be amazing with both of those things taken out.
@@nobodyimportant4778 I modded the fuck out of the game with a mod called W3 Enhanced Edition, which sidelines the unimmersive and tacked on leveling mechanics in favor of much more skill based combat. It might have made changes to crafting too, but I'm not sure off the cusp.
I look forward to a similar mod for cyberpunk as well
@@sankhyohalder97 I play on console, so no way to mod it, but my way to "remove" some RPG aspects of the game was to hide most of the UI, including monsters health bars and level. This made such as every fight I didnt really knew what I was getting into, the rpg aspects still existed and I still tunned Geralt the way I wanted, but I focused on the effects of the skills rather than the numbers, since I wouldn't be seeing HPs or damage. It helped a lot with immersion and even on normal I had some hard times trying to kill monsters that were out of my league and I went on to kill them anyway
@@ramontavaresdacruz2256 That sounds like a recipe for frustration to me, especially if you didn't know things like humble town guards being stronger than Geralt haha, but in the absence of better options, you have to make do
I found that the best way to actually engage with crafting and use consumables was cranking up the difficulty. When challenges are high, you have to use every tool at your disposal to win and have to engage with every system in the game to even stand a chance.
The problem with this, depending on the game, is that if you die and lose those items, you now made that even more challenging when you couldn’t beat it before. It’s why I never use consumables in a game. If I lose with a consumable I have just made the game harder on myself.
This is true for item and resource management in general. If you have played the old resident evil games, the item management felt great because every bullet counted and you also could not save indefinitely, you had to spend an item to save the game, so you had to choose carefully... it added a lot to the tension because the enemies were strong and you were always barely holding on. Compare that to something like fallout 3, where the item management quickly becomes just a chore that gets in the way of spamming your favorite weapon, at that point might just as well get rid of it.
Yup! Useless items become more useful
Depends on the game. Sometimes it just makes combat more tedious and no amount of crafting changes that.
I really enjoy how in Breath of the Wild, in order to cook something you just need to physically drop them into a pot with a fire and listen to the jingle either become more harmonious or more discordant depending on the imminent outcome.
TOTK takes it even further with fuse, where you have to drop items to fuse weapons.
Except that, after a certain point, I had enough mastery of the game that what I wanted was an inventory full of Hearty Radish/Truffle dishes and cooking 20 things in one sitting gets repetitive and annoying.
@@BrewerM23agreed
@@BrewerM23 Yeah it was literally my least favorite part, on top of having to memorize formulas for items.
"the time it takes to make stuff helps it feel more rewarding" try saying that after trying to make five fish bait in animal crossing....one at a time....with a 3-5 second animation between each one...and mashing a in the menu. Then realizing you don't have enough for 5, so you have to exit that menu, go into your home storage, put it in your pocket, then reopen the crafting table menu
That’s just bad design though. There’s no real reason you’re not able to craft several of the same item at once, especially things like bait or ammunition
This is also so annoying with Cb2077, I just wanna craft 200 max docs at once not spend 20 mins clicking and holding craft
And there are people who defend this. That's the worst part
@@shanedevine2419 well personally I like the game but it has many many flaws
@@joshuabreurken2424 Yeah the game's really good! Just wish some parts could be better
I really get what you're saying with this one. In Skyrim, I LOVE making potions; collecting ingredients, finding out what each one is for, and what goes together, but I never use them. On top of the throwback problems with consumables, there are so many out in the world that are often much better than the ones I can make, I don't even need to go to a shop to have more than enough.
I personally really enjoy crafting in games but that usually turns out with me having huge stockpiles of crafted garbage that's too much to even sell.
Outside of the crafting itself, most games would hardly change without it.
The potions in skyrim can be very good tho
I liked making potions in Skyrim as well because the soundtrack was so good. Especially when you craft at an alchemy bench in the major holds.
The craft skills in skyrim are literally the most powerful skills in the game, especially if you level all of them and use them to boost each other
i just choose rabdom shit and click E like a mad man, since i have skyUI that is so much faster,, i fail nost of my potions,,,, vut i wish i could have a auto make potions options...like the autolockpicm in oblivion
Thank a lot, we're designing the game mechanic and were looking to add a crafting system central to our game pace. Your video highlighted the issues and how it can be solved !
I quite like how Kingdom Come Deliverence handles crafting: to brew potions you need to follow a recipe with specific steps to get the wanted final result. It puts a ton of agency onto the player's shoulders instead of being just an animation so mastering it is so very satisfying
@Aaron nope, brew them to long, and the potion and all your ingredients are gone, the game is very picky about order of ingredients, how said ingredient have to be prepared and how long you have to cook them on what temp
I absolutely loved the alchemy mini game in KC:D. Was really rewarding getting all the ingredients laid out and crafting a complicated potion. Wondering if you left the heat on two long or added an ingredient fast enough really engaged me.
Yeah I think that was great, same with the sword sharpening. You could pay to have it done or just do it yourself, tbh I would've liked more of it. Being a blacksmith's son it could have been cool to repair and modify armor.
@Aaron No, but it *is* acceptable to bake a cake for four and a half years
Modded Minecraft does this as well. Many items requires quite a few steps, and some mods indeed ask for crafting to be done in correct order with some thought, for example, Thaumcraft.
Have you ever heard of the Atelier franchise, all those games revolve around crafting and has probably one of the most robust but fun crafting systems. Recipe have different ingredient that can be switched with materials having properties unique to them that carry over to the crafted item. This way crafting items because more of puzzle as you have to choose when to use rare items or how to transfer properties from one item to another even when it is not a direct ingredient for the final product you want.
I like when crafting materials are used as subtle hints to suggest an alternative to the obvious path you would take. For example one path has a puzzle to solve, while the other one is a gauntlet of fire and lava. Conveniently the devs placed iron shavings next to the entrance which are used to create fire immune potions. So you can either solve the puzzle or use crafting to walk through the fire directly. This gives you a sense of accomplishment, understanding, and choice.
How many videos are you going to make where the most common comment is "why didn't you mention Terraria?" lmao
Now I am just intentionally trolling the community, and, frankly, I will be the only real loser.
@@razbuten I love this
@@razbuten that's a dangerous game. let's see how it plays out
I just defeated the pillars yesterday, (without any pre-preparation) and got absolutely wrecked!
10/10
Would get Impending Doom-ed again!
:P
Time for wiki-diving!
(*˘︶˘*).｡.:*♡
Yeah that’s exactly what I was thinking, terraria genuinely has one of the most fun item crafting I’ve seen in a game
I've also found that most crafted gear ends up being easily replaceable by gear you just find for free in the wild. I therefore end up feeling like crafting is a waste of time and materials.
Right? Or crafted gear is irritatingly generic because the system doesnt allow the kind of bonuses that natural items have until you get into the late game.
The Subnautica section filled me with a strange nostalgia made up of both excitement and terror.
Fun thing that I thought about: Rimworld has one of my favorite ever crafting systems because of how grounded and heart wrenching it can be, you need a good amount of materials that have to be mined, bought or processed, the crafting itself takes many in-game days (and more if your colonist has been crippled in any way) and it can lead up to a bad end result if the character has a low skill, bad health or again is a cripple, but when you nail a legendary assault rifle everything is worth it
Rimworld is one of my favourite games, but honestly I thought the crafting was one of the weak parts. Resource collection is tedious and micromanage-ey in the early game, and automatic in the late game so it's more of a timer until you can make whatever you're making. One of my biggest criticisms of Rimworld is that most of the game is waiting for things to happen, and this is especially true when crafting. The quality system seems interesting to engage with, but it ends up just heavily encouraging you to save-scum, as low-quality items of even the highest-grade materials can be nearly worse than nothing, and can't even be scrapped for another attempt.
And then the rabid bunnies end it all…
@@evsre4138 but it´s ok because Randy gifted the last survivor a couple stacks of dromedary milk, so no biggie
@@Axl4325 someone needs to make a mod where it lets you milk any mammal. i want my beaver cheese
Thanks for reminding me how incredible Subnautica is. Can we all just appreciate how the sound design alone made the crafting in Subnautica satisfying?
"Using a menu to craft is boring"
Whereas having to do some minigame every single time I want to do something is tedious, unfun, and the minigames themselves usually have nothing to do with the actual process of crafting whatever it is... which would need a fairly unique minigame for every single item in the game if you wanted to avoid them being arbitrary.
He also said that in the video though
Two ends of the spectrum.
There can be more than one bad way to implement something
I think the title should be "triple a games implement crafting in a pointless way" because on it's own, crafting is a beautiful mechanic.
yep, as long as you implement it right, it can be an awesome addition to the game.
Such is the way of the clickbaity title
Theres barely any games out there that pull off interesting crafting systems, especially if we're talking about the actual crafting process. The idea is great, but most of the time it just ends up as a different skin for a vendor with the addition of a progression bar rather than any sort of gameplay at all.
Exactly! Games can be good if they don't have crafting, open world or aren't non linear. Not every game have to have everything gamers like to be great. In fact the less of those things game has, the better it can be.
If Crafting is not core mechanic, then why even implement it? If crafting is more irritating than fun then why it even is in game?
Yeah, crafting ammo from menu in the middle of a firefight helps so much with immersion!
Removing the ability to craft saddles in minecraft is something I shant soon forgive.
adding the recipie book to minecraft is something I shant soon forgive
@@littlechickeyhudak what’s wrong with the recipe book?
@@Hotomato nothing really haha, I was just kidding. I don't super love it personally just because I grew up with old Minecraft, and researching, learning, and remembering crafting recipes was so much fun and something I remember very fondly, but now that's not really part of the game anymore, but that's fine. The game has changed quite a bit from what it was when I was younger, but it's ultimately been for the better, and I'm very happy that it's still thriving.
I do appreciate the ability to turn the recipe book off, though. I usually do just because I personally enjoy it more
@@littlechickeyhudak try crafting 10000 observes, so fun ...
@@Hotomato Yeah tbh the recipe book, or something like it, should have been in the game to start. Without it a player essentially has to look up how to do things on the internet to progress. The literal most basic things in the game, like making a pickaxe, would be impossible to do without looking it up.
crafting and inventory management mechanics in games often just annoy me, and i think that this video quite nicely touches on some of that... its just an extra thing to worry about that wastes your time unless it is added in a way that elevates the core of the game.
crafting and item procurement is a massive time waster in subnautica as well, the fact its mandatory doesnt change that.
in games where crafting is the core of the game, people like you will just not play it, as opposed to not engage with the mechanic.
in f4, you dont need to craft, but its there if you want to, mgs5 has crafting and base upgrade that require you to look around for resources. but you dont need it to play the game. but its there if you want to experiment, and have more options.
@@marcosdheleno right but like... Why put the extra resources into a crafting system that barely gets touched when that time and effort could go to improving the core loop?
See: Warframe's content islands. Why would you bother with doing archwing content more than the one necessary time when you only ever use it on the open world
to get place to place? Why bother with the Railjack when it never comes into play at all? Why bother with Conclave? Why bother with Duviri? Those aren't the core loop of Warframe.
@@DisKorruptd man i hate that people think content islands are bad.
they arent. people just make too big a deal about them, as if they were the bane and worst thing to ever exist in the game.
here's the thing, warframe is what's called a passion project. and contrary to what many people think, many of those are made, because its something the devs want to add, as opposed to what makes the game better.
in the case of railjack the original idea was to serve as a plataform to add more integration between the diferent aspects of the game.
that's not what happened, because the game changed "hands".
they still want railjack to be something, but they pushed that back for the time being, because they got a new idea they want to play with.
@@marcosdheleno the issue is that they keep adding this new thing.... and then never actually going anywhere with it, abandoning their latest addition with the next major update
That sorta reminds me of the crafting system in "The Long Dark." I haven't played that game in years at this point (about two or so, and I know there's been some huge changes since then), but the crafting system was top notch from what I remember. The crafting was absolutely vital to your survival and progression through the game (you had to craft better weapons, snares, fishing line and hooks, even tinder boxes and bandages) but at the same time, you were keenly aware that the time you spent sitting down to rip that newspaper up into tinder for your fire, you were getting closer to freezing to death, or starving to death, because it was -30C out, and night was quickly falling. And then, for certain things, you needed to track down the work tables that had specialized tools, or you had to have the specific tools yourself. It was a good game, and I really should go back to play it again...
I tried playing it and that game is pretty brutal with it's difficulty and crafting system and I'm saying that's a negative thing, however I after a several death I kind of just gave up, because I'm getting to the point were I'm more interested in playing more relaxing and less taxing games as a enjoyment. That being said, after your reminded me about it, I kinda want to try going back to it again and seeing how long I can last. It's really the only game I've played that felt like a true survival game that didn't hold your hand or give your free chances, even the smallest mistake could cost you.
@@dhgmrz17 If you play on voyager or pilgrim and start at Mystery Lake, it's really not very difficult. But yeah, it can be extremely brutal. I have more than a hundred hours in it and still regularly die.
The great thing about the Long Dark is that *everything* is a ressource - including time. So if you want to craft something, it might help your chances of survival, but you spend time and calories doing it. You are always prioritising and making trade-offs, which is why it works so great.
@@dhgmrz17 Yeah, it's absolutely brutal, and definitely not a game that I would play for something just to chill out. It's a difficult game, and definitely one of the most survival-focused survival game I've played. With time, heat, food, all of it being resources, and encumbrance being strictly enforced, it's really interesting to play, especially once you get to the point where you have the landscape memorized, even if the exact resources are randomized. You start learning where you can have supply drops, where the best food can be gathered, and yeah. It's a fun game, and one I enjoyed despite how brutal it is, even if I couldn't survive ten days in more saves than not.
This is why Atelier is so great: it's ABOUT the crafting. The crafting system itself makes you think, and the fact that the best way to deal damage is with an attack item and the best equipment needs to be crafted incentivizes crafting further. When these games occasionally drag, it is because I have some less useful items lined up to craft, but the game still incentivizes me to craft at least one of almost everything, and once I have it I might as well use it, and often l find it's more useful than I thought.
The only atelier I played was Ryza but with that game the alchemy crafting almost felt like a puzzle game trying to figure out the best ways to connect each material to get the most benefits.
Those games have amazing crafting. I really wish we could get something like that with a bigger budget.
@@JadeMythriil the atelier series is awesome because each new trilogy is released with a WHOLE NEW crafting system. It's fascinating. And each iteration of the trilogy modifies the basic concepts of the crafting system without destroying its base. For example, Atelier Sophie has a very objective oriented craft system, where you spend a lot of time trying to achieve tasks from a book in order to gain new recipes and thus progress in the craft progression. Unlike a lot of games that came before it, it doesn't have a time limit. You can spend as long as you like playing the game. Atelier Firis, The second game in that trilogy, not only returns the time limit mechanic, It changes up how you gain recipes. At the same time crafting doesn't change that much other than the fact that certain recipes are reworked and the crafting progression is very familiar but it also feels new. The Atelier games strike a great balance between crafting, progression, and putting the screws to you to try and get you to do things in a timely fashion. It's interesting in such a visceral way because some of the games that don't force you to play time management in the truest sense are very fun, But some of the games that were fully designed around the idea of a time limit and thus you need to not only get good at crafting but you need to get good relatively quickly and keep progressing through the world are also extremely fun. Especially because there's fluff that suggests that each person's style is tempering how you're experiencing their synthesis. Sophie, for example, 10 to experience very simple forms of synthesis, compared to the other characters. The twins in the final part of the trilogy actively see alchemical signs for metals. Firis tends to have a greater focus on foraging, with her recipes being a little bit simpler in my experience compared to Sophie's. Considering Sophie stays at home the entire game, while Firis is literally in constant motion her entire game, these subtle differences tell a really cool story and help diversify the games in the series and make you want to play them all. This isn't even mentioning how they tend to reuse symbol assets so that you recognize certain names and concepts in what certain things are even between different trilogies. which is probably also a budget thing but they make The most of it for sure. items rarely have the same place between two games but you will usually be able to recognize them and generally have an idea of where you need to be at to make them just based on what you were seeing. Not even mentioning how each game has its own material trait loop that allows you to take basic materials and loop them into making super items If you're paying attention to what traits you're maxing and what you can make those things count as in the system. Basically play the games. Play all of the games. A lot of them are on switch. And they finally imported the dusk trilogy into PC and that's a lot of people's favorite ones. Just do it man it's fun
Yeah, even though I usually hate crafting mechanics in games, I actually liked the synthesizing in Shallie. I’ll admit that I didn’t get too deep into it (like, actively going out of my way to have good property combinations, and I never got an item whose quality was >150), but the element-level balancing was pretty cool. I still found that skills were usually more powerful than items, especially in burst mode, but the way synth’d items were kinda infinite use also encouraged me to, like, actually use them, which is rare.
Quite a few aspects of atelier are hit or miss, like trait optimizing.
And theres more than a few titles where you forget the bombs youve been making can actually be used in combat.
I love how Red Dead Redemption 2 handled collecting animal parts. In every other game you just kill an animal, press a button and the needed materials are magically teleported to your infinite inventory. It's mindless and boring! In RDR2, I actually felt like I was doing something when I was collecting supplies. If I wanted a perfect bear hide, I had to find a bear, stalk it, line up a perfect headshot, take the time to skin the carcass, put the pelt on my horse and then physically deliver it to the trapper. A lot of people complain about RDR2 and say that the animations and crafting are too time consuming but I think it's absolutely amazing. This approach makes the whole process feel special. Every little thing like hunting a deer feels like a mini mission or a small adventure where I have to take care of everything every step of the way. It's engaging and immersive. Throughout my first playthrough of RDR2, I shot and skinned about 3 Grizzly bears in total. But I remembered every encounter and each one felt special! In games like AC Odyssey, I could butcher hundreds of bears and none of the encounters would be memorable or interesting. It would be just another mindless task of killing an animal and pressing a button to collect all it has. I really hope more games take inspiration from TLOU2 and RDR2. For example, I think Ghost of Tsushima would be way better if it had some of those realistic elements: an animation for skinning animals like in RDR2 or Assassin's Creed III, a quick animation where Jin cuts a plant with his tanto, an animation for looting corpses or picking up supplies. Of course, not every game needs extremely slow and realistic animations for everything like RDR2, but I will always take animations over lack of them. They can be quick and simplified but I love it when they are there.
@kshamwhizzle Exactly. RDR2 is the kind of game that lets you soak in the atmosphere and get immersed in the world. It's the kind of game where I can't help but to slow walk or casually ride my horse to admire the visuals and pay attention to the world. When people play it like GTA and gallop everywhere, they miss the point.
7:20 that sword is absolutely cursed
what about it
@@Glorp1997 looks like wood or gold because of shaders but is actually stone
@@hatster401 ??? How does it look like gold or wood?
@LOAN NGUYEN It looks grey, with a hint of yellow/orange. The yellow/orange comes from the shaders, how anyone would mix it up with gold or wood is beyond me. Mixing it up with iron? Sure, hell I think I even thought it was iron for a moment before I checked the bar, but both gold and wood would be darker. At the very least, the colors would more closely match the torch.
Maybe, and even this is pushing it, if swords used the appearance of the wood used to create them, it could be birch, but nope.
I often play open-world games, and a lot of times, the crafting becomes another checklist in my completionist brain and less of an actual interaction. You pretty much nailed the sentiment! Sometimes a little inconvenience and a little more expectation out of me makes me more appreciative of it being in a game.
The most fun I've ever had with a crafting system is in Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, even though it's technically optional (but still incredibly useful). It's so detailed that thinking about how you would make a thing in real life will usually be the way you do it in the game. Which ends up making it incredibly satisfying to craft something as simple as a pair of leather boots since scavenging or crafting all the tools and materials you need to do it is no small task and now you can make all kinds of other leather items.
Sometimes when I play games that I need to craft things it makes me annoyed because I’m the type of person that always work towards one item and then never use it again
Crafting is often employed in the same way as weapon durability: a minor chore that doesn't really add any immersion or depth to the experience.
Weapon durability is inherently immersive imo
@@spol As long as it’s on a weapon that makes sense, and they clearly show the durability.
If durability is handled like Dark Souls 3 where it exists but rarely ever a problem, then I'd say we can have both immersion and fun.
As for the 'visual' side of durability, it'd be easy enough to just make two models and have their parts go into place with degradation.
Would be cool if durability adds to the damage rather than _just_ breaking down like I can imagine rust on a sword giving better bleeding benefits on it's cuts.
@@muffinman2546 it could be so that having max durability would give you definite benefits that would gradually degrade into negatives with a bonus first and full-on negatives later. Taking your example for swords, a brand new sword would have better damage due to being sharp, but as it gathers rust and dulls it would lose a lot of up-front damage but gain a bleeding factor due to the jagged blade ripping flesh apart but not actually cutting very well and ultimately ending up with just the poor damage without bleeding because the blade has just dulled too much.
You could also throw in a sharpening mechanic that would grant you the benefits of the next durability level for a small amount of uses without affecting total durability, or something to that effect. Maybe even slow down the degradation while sharpened
Edit: I think what's usually bad in durability systems is the fact that the negatives roll into play too quickly without the player having much choice to do anything about it, forcing the player to run at the repair shop (or whatever you have) constantly
@@houndofculann1793 Ok that sounds really cool. Honestly I don't have a huge complaint with durability cuz the only game I've played with that mechanic is BotW where you can't fix it at all. But after playing Age of Calamity with its weapon upgrading, I can see why that is such a chore
I think the Atelier games have my favorite crafting systems. Sophie 1's in particular I've liked out of the two I've tried I really love because of the little puzzle game you play with the ingredients. Which makes the kinds of ingredients you pick to use not just a matter of grade qualities and what the items do, but also one of "Can I even fit this shit in the grid?"
But like I think the main thing I like so much about the Atelier games beyond just being games based around crafting that have actually interesting crafting is that you aren't a big fancy adventuring hero or something. You're an alchemist and you're doing alchemist things. While there is combat systems in the games and while Ayesha does have more plot stakes than several of the other games you are still just an alchemist. And that, I think, matters more to me than the fun exploration progression loop of Subnautica, as much as I love it. Because I like being able to play as an alchemist. And that I think is what I ultimately want most out of crafting systems. I want to roleplay as someone who can do a skill.
Atelier's crafting system is amazing. It feels so rewarding when you craft the perfect item after many hours of gathering/crafting its ingredients and fitting them in the grid.
1st playthrough: Save every single scrap for the love of god incase I will need it somepoint in the near future!!!
2nd playthrough: How can I spend my resources the most efficiently so that I minimize the time spent and reach my goal?
Good point. It's quite different when you know what's ahead. And not knowing what's ahead is a viewpoint that is harder for devs to relate to.
3rd playthrough: How do I have the most fun?
4th playthrough: Mods
essentially speedrunning
Speedrunning never appealed to me, each new play is a completionist play for me. I never tire of exploring the same world all over, but maybe taking different roads or different character type.
Everytime I play a game with crafting I always spend multiple real world days trying to find the materials to craft something like a powerful weapon. After crafting the weapon i remember all the hard work i put into it and get excited about how powerful it'll be. Then I do a 15 minute story mission that rewards me with a weapon twice as strong.
THIS. This is everything I thought about and wanted to change ten years ago when I came up with the idea for a game I call "Build & Break". It was planned to be an asymmetric, asynchronous co-op game based around one player crafting stuff (The Builder) and the other player exploring the world they've crash landed on and procuring materials (The Breaker). This way, crafting is so integral that it can't possibly feel like the tacked-on afterthought it did/does in so many other games.
It's gotten better over the years, but I still like my idea; I even envisioned a sequel called "Build, Break & Negotiate" where a third character (A parent of the other two) has to convince the local population to help them escape this latest crash landing through social options.
"the time it takes to skin a bear makes the output of those action feel more important"
Red dead redemption: gives me 12 $ for a perfect bear skin...
You skin perfect skins to craft the special pouches which let you hold more inventory space and look cool. Not for the meagre amount of money it gives you.
Well, judging with inflation thats like $375 so... yea.
@@maxell859 well but a can of beans is 1,50 $ so that doesnt really count...
$12 back then wasn’t bad at all.
12 dollars in red dead is good af
For me the game that best implements the crafting system into the gameplay loop is the monster hunter series. Crafting equipment to fight monsters to craft better equipment so as to fight tougher monsters etc. It feels worthwhile and integral to the loop because there is no levelling up of the player character. It is through crafting that you progress and unlock skills and various builds.
Though it can be better. In Monster Hunter World you hardly ever going to need throwing knives or poisoned meat for example.
4:16 Subnautica is an *excellent* example of a well-balanced crafting-focused game. It never distracts from the world, never feels like a chore or an add-on, and never hits a point of irrelevance. Everything is important, but only at a certain time in the games progression.
And what's especially crazy is that as a player you mostly remember the exploration and the base-building, but looking back like 80% of gameplay is collecting and crafting resources.
Especially if you assume your task is to CONQUER 4546B.
After the rescue ship bought it, I thought "okay, these guys are going DOWN". I totally forgot to go inside the gun building, and began to scour the sea for all the materials and information I could.
I ended up with two moonpools, walls completely covered with lockers full of materials. Didn't even get inside the Aurora until Day 360. Finally left on Day 542.
until you get locked for 5 hours scouring the sea because you are missing a bp fragment, or have no idea where to find that 1 item that is only used for that 1 bp that you will need to get to the next part of the world without drowning.
and sure, you can always check the wiki, but this is a problem not a good design. and subnautica is filled with small moments of that to call it "well balanced".
Even more pointless is weapon degradation where a weapon will break after killing three or four enemies.
Nah. Just get good
@@omensoffate "get good" ... wow, someone is overcompensating like crazy! That's the most pointless response to that I've ever heard. This litterally has nothing to do with skill, as nothing you can do will make them break slow, and it's not difficult, just tedious. Skill won't make it less tedious, that's why it's annoying. Aaand finally it tends to only be in really easy games like Zelda. It's like telling people to "get gud" at waiting for the elevator, just wtf... lol
@@ThrottleKitty you okay man? Saying get good is a meme you know that right ?
@@omensoffate Saying get good is really cringe at this point. And Throttle Kitty is right.
@Feral cat Well they don't have to force me anything, because i don't play games like Zelda Breath of The Wild where every weapon is basically useless with how quickly it breaks.
And the bigger problem with games that have that mechanic of weapons breaking quickly, is that it forces players to not use their most powerful weapons and instead think "But i might need it later", leading to those weapon being used never, so what is even the point ?
The crafting system in ACNH I find is specifically so frustrating because none of the materials are actually *difficult* to get, instead they range from mindless to *annoying*
I'm low on wood? well it's incredibly easy to grab some from my storage, or even go chop down some trees if I'm totally out
But WHY? Crafting doesn't feel valuable because the resources I put in are damn meaningless. I'm far more concerned with bringing bugs back from an island, and choosing which to toss in hopes of bringing a more valuable one to sell
but wood, soft wood, and hard wood? I can harvest way more from my own island than I'd ever need
Finding one of my favourite furniture pieces in the store is *genuinely* more exciting than "saving up" the materials to craft one I like just as much
Actually, getting the *recipe* for something I like is infinitely better than making the thing
Felt the same with BoTW cooking
This. Every time I'm running low on wood it feels like a chore to build back up a supply because it takes so much time (and so many axes) to get something so common.
Once I craft something I get attached to it because of the place it occupies in my island, not because I built it. Truly, the most satisfaction you get out of crafting is getting the recipe, seeing villagers use it, and getting compliments from visitors. Nothing from the crafting, ironically.
(And don't get me started on the fish bait, the hellish contraptions.)
They flaw with ACNH is the real grind is farming all the recipes. I actually like botw cooking because your free to experiment and add any ingredients you want.
... what about Zodiac stars
What annoys me is theres no bulk crafting option for consumables. That's why I never use bait. It's such a hassle to craft and it only lasts for a minute.
With Fallout 4, if you dive deep into the crafting system you can alleviate most of those issues. Scavenging stations, the adhesive recipe, and the ability to have unlimited caps by creating a moisture farm all have a major influence on your character's power level. The problem is that the main story of the game is exceptionally easy and doesn't need a high power level, so without modded-in content it is unnecessary. Even survival mode doesn't really make much of a difference once you are used to it. So while the crafting system is very deep, and there are some crazy things you can do with it, there's no reason to do so.
So true and you can set up links between settlements too
Having my settlements do different stuff like storing my stuff, producing ammo, farming for caps felt like I was actually repairing the wasteland. Too bad you finish the game and there's no reason to keep playing
another game to note would be one called "the Forest"
though i wouldnt say the crafting is the best, it forces you to mix certain items together via trial and error and once you learn to make something, just hovering over one of the items took to make it will show its recipe, and you can only carry a certain amount of any certain item at a time, for instance i could reach the item cap on rocks but still pick up sticks becuase i havent hit the stick limit.
but the most interesting part is the building, you build to save your game, to sleep which is its own mechanic that you need to keep on top of, to stay warm, to protect yourself from cannibals, store things, but unlike other games where you build it at that same moment of time, you can place down the blueprint of it and slowly build these items up overtime
It isnt the best out there and i frankly am not nearly experienced or have enough time to be able to touch on what it is or why it works but it definitely makes the world more diverse and interesting, and deserves some kind of accomplishment
I was actually going to say this. The forests crafting works because it has real uses and you kinda need to use it. The game finds a good balance of crafting and exploring for items because each has its drawbacks. You could go searching for Dynamite or you could craft a makeshift bomb. They are the same in stats but require a different form of effort. Same with medical supplies and food. All of these things help with the spelunking making you less of a scared little piss baby and Mor of a dominant force to try and get those later game weapons/tools that you can't make
i completely agree. I think raz has missed some important crafting systems: the forest, dont starve cooking, stranded deep first crafting system and even kcd weapon repairing. Should ve talked more about different survival games approach. But a great video nonetheless, i believe everyone has realised that crafting and looting in rpgs can become an annoying chore
@Alpha Shepherd Kingdom Come Deliverance, to fix your weapons you have to go to a stone wheel, keep pressing buttons to spin the wheel, and angle your blade in such a manner that it resharpens or bends out dents. Its sped up reality. A lot of people wish they had done something similar with armor but you just have to pay a person to fix it for you.
I tried it and it was a pretty shitty game to be honest. The enemies were wonky and annoying, eating and drinking was required far too often, so it became a chore. Also gathering sticks was somehow harder than chopping down a bunch of trees. The horror wasnt convincing either, because these monsters and canibals arent believable or relateable. Especially their behavior was a shitfest, charging at you, getting poked by your spear, running away, so you just stand there waiting for their next charge, so you can poke them again. BORING
Crafting is just more interactive and gives more choice.
If done right.
That's the thing. It's rarely done right unless it's a main component of the game.
"more choice" doesn't mean "better" - it often makes things worse, in fact. It's really hard to design good choices for the player.
@@RoamingAdhocrat
No, it is not. And variety in gameplay is certainly not bad.
@@Ninjaananas
It actually does. More choices can overwhelm many players or cause them to optimize the fun out of a game. It happens. A lot. The best games have the illusion of choice, while actually crafting the design VERY carefully to nudge players in specific playstyles. Exceptions being sandbox type games, which are designed over freedom of choice. Like Minecraft. The extent of this definitely relies on genre.
@@cortster12
The game is not supposed to flood the player with choices and a crafting system usually gives you gradually more choices.
Optimization makes games for many players even more fun and those who do not like it can simply leave it. That is a personal problem of you.
Illusions of choice are broken once the game is replayed and the magic is gone. Choices enhance the replayability massively.
Minecraft is the go to example for crafting. Do not phrase it like an exception. Crafting should not be shoehorned into games which do not fit it.
him: shows factorio and how it gas good crafting
me: subs
I was waiting for an Atelier series reference the whole time. The only game series about crafting items that actually matters.
I was expecting the exact same. Probably has the best crafting system I've ever seen as it avoids every problem mentioned in the video whilst including the positive aspects. Never before in a game have I been excited to find a high quality leaf
@@ostrichlord9097 When it comes to crafting systems, Atelier games are the most committed to the idea. From side quests to boss fights, EVERYTHING goes through the crafting system in that series. I don't disagree with what is actually in the video for the games selected, its only that if you want an in depth crafting game (and something distinct from a building game) then the Atelier series is the only thing that really comes to mind.
@@Magefire2 I agree. I just find it surprising that Atelier wasnt referenced as a good example of a crafting video within the video. You dont really have to look too hard to find the game, especially if you're looking for something where crafting is the main attraction
This is something I've been thinking about a lot over the last 10 or so years. As crafting has gone from a rarity outside of MMOs before Minecraft, to something that you see in a lot of games that it fit with conceptually, to virtually all AAA games having it. The biggest thing that sticks out to me about it is that it is yet again one of these situations where devs have taken the shape of a thing and grafted it onto their games without any real understanding of why that thing worked in the game in question. Happens all the time in this medium.
However, with crafting, because the game that started this trend is so big. I mean. SO BIG. I mean, spawned an entire genre of youtube video big. I mean so far beyond big that it really isn't a stretch to call it the biggest and most influential game ever made. Because the game is Minecraft - and Minecraft totally baffles the AAA market - we see this problem happen with features from it continuously.
There are games that get it. Subnautica, as you said, is one of these games. But I don't actually think the issue is the usefulness or requiredness of the items you craft that is the key here. It is tied to that, but it is deeper than that.
The reason I don't want to craft things in FO4 but I do in Subnautica - and the reason Minecraft was so successful - is that Minecraft and Subnautica have you crafting things you want to craft.
Let me rephrase that, because it sounds obvious and tautological.
When you play a game, there are really 3 perspectives involved. There is the you that's playing the game to have fun, this is the experiencer you. There is the you that is pretending to be a character, this is the character you. And there is the you that is performing game actions, the player you. The experiencer you wants to have a good time, they want to be entertained by the narrative of the game and/or influence it. The character you has story-based motivations and wants to progress in the game. The player you wants to have cool interactions that feel good to do. Games that you enjoy the most not only cater to these three perspectives, but unify them. The opposite of this state is often called ludonarrative dissonance. However most correctly that only applies to the player you and the character you being at odds.
The classic example of that is a game where you are supposed to be a good superhero, but that game asks you to kill thousands of faceless baddies along the way. People your character doesn't know, who that character would probably be terrified to be killing over and over in terrible ways.
But when you include this third perspective, this problem takes on a new dimension. You can have a character that wants to do something, and a player that is enjoying what they are being asked to do, but have that be at odds with what the experiencer wants to be doing. This is that feeling you've had where you know you enjoy the game, but you kind of don't want to be doing what the game wants but you just want to be doing something else the game isn't asking of you right then. For example, you are going along having fun and the game tosses in a puzzle that makes logical sense to be there, and the character would want to solve it, it might even be a fun puzzle all on its own; but you aren't there for puzzles.
The games that feel the best align all three of these things with motivations that appeal to each of these at the same time.
Let's start with Subnautica. When you are first crash landing; the experiencer wants to understand how to play the game, the game wants to teach you, and the narrative is merely about basic survival. Then, once you've got the interface down after dealing with the fire and your first craft, you want to branch out. The game puts you out where you can test things out, and the narrative in the moment is about getting basic initial survival items like food and water squared away. At each phase of the game, what the player wants, what the game play is saying and what the narrative is saying are aligned. The key here is that the experiencer you can task switch from one thing to another and it doesn't break the narrative. At all times you are doing what that character would do.
Minecraft is the same. I won't rehash over the details. But pay close attention to how Minecraft doesn't have a story that's being told to the player, but instead has systems that enable the player to tell their own story. At every point along the progression, the player is able to decide what they want to do. The goals are designed, as much as modern quest task lists are designed, but they are goals that don't need to be told to the player because they happen to also be the goals the player has on their own.
The AAA industry saw Minecraft and they saw a game with no narrative. I see a lot of folks saying Subnautica doesn't really have a narrative, even. But in both cases, the narrative just so perfectly aligns with what you already want to do and what your character would be doing and what the game play is telling you do to, that they blend together. The AAA industry looks for ways to shoehorn a story into something like Minecraft - neglecting the fact that one already existed. You are a lone survivor in the wilderness, you have to survive zombies and skeletons, you gain power and strength to use back against those forces only to discover deeper and darker forces. You fight and defeat those, and your strength makes you greedy for more. So on, until you kill a dragon and get credits.
Subnautica has a lot of explicit narrative that's more traditional. But they took care to think about how to incorporate it in a way that didn't break these three perspectives. If the experiencer you decides not to go help out the deep sea survivors, or not follow up on things you find on the floating island, it makes sense from the game play and character perspectives too. That's just not the order the story was in.
AAA games that do this well exist. But it often either feels like an accident or the result of other decisions. And if the experiencer you is already in the right mind for it, just avoiding ludonarrative dissonance is often enough. If you are in the mood for what The Last of Us has to offer, it will scratch the itch and still give you fun for a dozen hours straight.
However, when a AAA game listens to the real lessons. Well. You get Breath of the Wild. A game where you can just follow the random whims of the experiencer you wherever they go, the game play will match the mood, and the character's actions make sense in the framework of adventure. The crafting feels good, not because you will use the items. You will use the items because they feel good and make sense to use them. The player drives everything, and the narrative matches what the player does and wants to do. Everything aligns.
Some things I am not saying. I am not saying that AAA games are bad and no one should play them. I'm not saying Minecraft, BotW or Subnautica are perfect. I am not saying you can't have fun with games that have ludonarrative dissonance or that doesn't satisfy all three perspectives at once. I am just saying that the AAA industry has largely missed the lesson from Minecraft, and when they accidentally or intentionally do learn the right lesson, the games are better for it.
-----
It is worth pointing out that there are a lot of lessons the AAA industry failed to learn from Minecraft. Here is a short list:
- They failed to notice how important being open, transparent, clear, supportive of wikis and modding, and otherwise crafting a positive community through clear and open communication was.
- They failed to notice that what makes the building work so well is the lack of fidelity in the graphics. Because stairs are vague, they can be used as chairs, roofs and other details. The flexible nature of the visuals means creatively reimagining what an object _is_ is part of the building meta game. When bigger games with higher fidelity graphics came out that had all the same technical abilities of Minecraft, they usually lacked this flexible nature. By having stairs that look like stairs, they designed out those stairs being roofs or chairs.
- They failed to notice that Minecraft is played by non-gamers. AAA games fall into two buckets - full gamer games with complex controls and hardcore graphic and cute games for casual gamers with simplified controls and simplified ends. A game that bucked this trend lately and won was Animal Crossing New Horizons. Minecraft has simplified controls, but great depth. It is the perfect game to transition from a casual player into a hardcore player with, because it is easy to start and hella deep.
- They fail to understand the pricing. Minecraft basically invented early access, but the way it has been implemented by the AAA industry has largely been a cavalcade of missteps. It isn't that hard. You need to have a solid initial offering that is enjoyable from the start, you need to have clear goals and milestones along the way, and you need to never let up on the promise of the final version. And I would argue, you need to not stop at the final product and continue to release new things for as long as people keep buying the game.
- There is a lot more, but that's enough for now.
that was long but worth reading, thanks for taking the time to explain in detail
Most AAA games are at their heart narrative games, which the developer places number 1 priority for the entire game. This means every other system in the game - combat, exploration, crafting will take a backseat to story telling, cutscenes and graphical detail. Letting the player make important decisions in the game is antithetical to the story telling experience. Even games designed around player decision making barely effects the direction of the story in most games, usually it is a minor novelty or a different ending but the game itself played mostly the same. So these systems of player choice in these narrative games are mostly an illusions of choice. Is there much difference between crafting a medkit or finding a medkit? Not really if the end result is the same and the process not very involved. So the developer merely makes the process slightly different, but the actual way it functions never changed, the gameplay fundamentally remains the same so they can keep their heavily directed experience.
@@cattysplat Well. Not really. Yes, you're right about how single-story narratives are being told in games. But Subnautica and Breathe of the Wild are also single-story narrative games. Neither has player agency in the story.
It isn't about what kind of story is being told. It is about the player's desires, the gameplay and the story being told all aligning.
There really is no reason that any other open world game couldn't pull off what Breathe of the Wild did. BotW has everything you described. The key difference is that the game play was designed around the story being told, and the player wants to be doing the things the game is asking them to do, and there is otherwise enough freedom to task switch.
One of the major reasons open world games appeal is that they virtually ensure that the player is in the driver's seat for most of the types of engagement they will experience - but it is more than just catering to the player's random desires - good games make the player want to do the things the game lets them do. And part of that is knowing why the players are there for your game.
Subnautica bills itself as a terrifying undersea craft-a-thon - and so the players playing it are ready for that experience.
BotW had marketing that explained ahead of the game what the idea was and why the game is the way it is - so Zelda fans were prepared for a game about exploring a big open Hyrule. If that didn't appeal to someone, they didn't buy it.
Most AAA games don't fail this, but sometimes they do.
It is entirely possible to get someone excited for playing a game about anything. A lot of successful games do this. Where many fail is then not giving the player logical reasons to be doing what they are doing and emotional reasons to be interested. And still a lot of games fail at the ludonarrative step. They pull the player out of the experience because they are being asked to do something the character they are playing wouldn't.
God of War on the PS4 is an example of a game that succeeds on all three of these fronts as much as the other games. The crafting is superfluous and you have no reason to care about it - so people don't. But the story, what Kratos is doing moment to moment, and what the player wants out of the experience otherwise align beautifully. None of these games are perfect. But when a game is doing it right - you almost always find that these three components align.
God of War is exactly the kind of movie-game you describe. But it succeeds in spades. If your theory about the problem being that games don't have narrative choice was true, God of War wouldn't be so good. But it is.
@@cattysplat yeah there's a difference between crafting and finding a medkit. There's also a difference, or should be, between killing an npc with a knife or a sniper rifle. Otherwise why play at all.
I actually love the excitement in anticipation of waiting 3.5 days to complete a new frame (mostly the last 12 hours of it) and makes each new item feel like counting the days to a new car or holiday or something. It really lets it set in that I really worked hard to get it as I've probably already been collecting all but a few resources already. It goes from a menu interaction to a life event
I have a feeling this guy is gonna get a heart attack if he plays an Atelier game.
Well, he did say that he prefers it when the game is built around the crafting and it's an integral part of the gameplay... And it doesn't get more integral than Atelier, that's for sure. (I have mixed feelings on Atelier games. I absolutely love the crafting elements and how they implement them, but not a big fan of moe anime stuff.)
@@fpedrosa2076 i think a good portion of the fans are the opposite, loving the anime look, with the mechanic taking a second place
Or Path of Exile
Atelier games avoid almost every issue he brings up. The game is built around it, it's non-optional, consumables are required, you have to think about what to gather due to limited time, and the crafting itself is involved and more than just a mindless menu where you spend materials like currency.
He would show the games as an example of how you do crafting right.
I like the fact in the Atelier games that they always try to make crafting feel unique to each series.
"Sir Henry, did you sneak into the apothecary's backroom to make your potions again ? "
This immediately made me think of the Atelier games. In them you play as an 'alchemist', which in that series basically means 'wizard who can make anything'. On the face of it these games are your usual turn-based combat JRPGs, but crafting is a HUGE component of advancement, not just to give your team stronger gear, but main story beats are often locked behind crafting specific items. While you don't HAVE to craft absolutely everything in the recipe tree and can just barrel down the main questline, the Atelier series sells itself on its crafting sooo... why are you here if not to craft?
The exact crafting method differs from game to game, but it is generally speaking some kind of puzzle minigame. I chose to buy the episode that I have, Atelier Sophie 2: The Alchemist of the Mysterious Dream (yes, they all have titles like that), because it was a spatial puzzle a bit like Tetris where the point is to make everything tesselate neatly, but the pieces don't fall from the top of the screen and you can just slot them into the grid in whatever order as long as they fit.
You have some leeway in which materials you use, but your choice WILL affect the end product. Each crafting recipe has material requirements, and if it's something broad like (Metal) you can choose ANY metal you have collected. Every material has certain elemental affinities and the resulting item gets boosts depending on how much of a given element it has. There's a bit of random generation to a material's elements and the piece shapes that it gives you, so you actually feel like a craftsman evaluating how useful each mat will be for the product you want to make; you can even choose to use a mat for only one of its pieces or just for its special item bonuses. You can remake the same product with different materials and get wildly different properties.
I particularly like the way the game handles consumables: when you craft them, they come as an item that has a set max capacity and which doesn't disappear when used up, so there's no fear of losing them or having to recraft them after use: every consumable stack is essentially a potion bottle that refills when you get back to your atelier - but you can't refill mid-adventure. The crafting process becomes vital here because you can give consumables properties like '+1 Capacity but less Power' or '-1 Capacity but MORE Power' (this applies to all refills of that consumable 'item').
The game even has some nice anti-frustration features like the duplication system. Got a material with such great RNG that you wish you could use it multiple times? Made a cool item that you need two of, but can't be bothered to make it again? Just pay to get it duplicated, simple. That way the focus of the game stays on making new stuff - OR on remaking an item in a different way to change or improve its properties.
You get a real feeling of mastery from remaking the same thing, but better - bringing out the full potential of the item by using the best mats and crafting techniques at your disposal. A lot of the satisfaction of the game is equipping all your characters with gear SO ridiculously powerful that they can just walk through bosses.
Imagine being the blacksmith that the hero party bought all their gear from and just watching as they fight the big bad evil dragon: its scales are like butter before their swords, its claws like rubber on their armour, its fire like a refreshing breeze against their shields, and you grin to yourself thinking 'yup, that's a job well done'.
That's the Atelier crafting fantasy right there.
i feel people tend to ignore the Atelier series when talking about crafting mechanics, each series has interesting ideias for it
I enjoyed the "minigame" of pre-bedrock Minecraft crafting.
@Justin B classic crafting is pc crafting, pocket crafting is for mobile devices
@Justin B classic crafting is still I'm bedrock
this is why you should use java
@Gizmo Cat is there a mod pack for that crafting system?
I'm a Java player, could you explain to me what you mean?
Are we just going to ignore Horizon: Zero Dawn? It's very rare that you just stumble upon ingredients. And because what creature they come from and where they are located, they are not only consistent, but marked. You always know where you need to go for what you need to reach your next goal, but you have to work for it. Plus tying money to bartering and ammo crafting is great because you can just blindly spend all of your money or you may just not be able to make arrows. I'm currently playing on very hard mode, and the rarity of the items, tied with the availability of them is just great.
I think this is true for the high difficulty settings. On normal difficulty you never have to actively search for items/ingredients at all
It's great too that there are so many strategies for combat in that game. So you might love using those sonic boom arrows to blow off armour of enemies, or maybe you love using blast/fire stuff.
Suddenly you find that you've run out of echo shells and blazes, so you have no more ammo for your combat style. As a result, you need to switch it up (maybe use corruption arrows and zap-trip wires?) Until you have an opportunity to literally hunt down your resources
@@iRsemple exactly, ik i used a lot of blaze and wire because i like exposions and tieing things down lol
@@zzman7305
It was so fun for me, late game, to return to the first hunter trial area where there are like a dozen Grazers, each with 4 blaze on their backs. I'd set up some traps, scare then towards the traps, then see how many blazes I could snipe with the harvest-arrows before the traps took care of the herd for me. Each run would net like 50-80 blaze. Never had more fun resource gathering before lol
@@iRsemple thats where i learned what the hell kind of use the part arrows were, used them quite a but after that, could turn one blaze canaster into like 4-6
But when Breath of the wild didn’t have arrow crafting I flipped my mind
Try the Forest. The crafting feels very interactive, very intuitive.
You literally lay down a blanket with all your inventory neatly laid out, and put each ingredient into a pile in the middle and combine them. It's super satisfying.
I was just about the say the same thing
It's funny how a couple of extra animations in The Last of Us II gave a different flavour to crafting. By showing Ellie really scratching a pistol grip or installing a new mod (even if I don't understand how she made a sniper scope using a bunch of bolts) it gives the feeling that something other than a stat has changed and it's genius.
crafting was actually my favorite part of skyrim. Everything else i did there, including story and fighting, was with the purpose of getting new skill levels in crafting so i could mass-produce stuff. I was always filling up them soulstones by using that particular weapon and enchanting all my stuff before selling it. To me, it was all about those skill levels and i guess money didn't hurt. To buy all the houses.
same XD
Not to mention that you can create god tier weapons that you can instant KO everyone around you.
I’ve played probably over 1200 hours of Skyrim and never crafted anything besides alchemy
@@bobmilleit1976 bruh
I liked the Alchemy and Enchantment in Skyrim a lot. I used them all the time and spent a lot of upgrade points on them. But I didn't like Smithing at all since most of the items you could've crafted were locked behind a questionably designed skill tree and it was much easier to find those items on the map anyways.
In regards to Fallout 4, crafting and looting is much, MUCH more important when you're playing on Survival mode. And so does H E L P I N G S E T T L E M E N T S, as when you've claimed a decent number of them across the map, they serve as rest stops to feed/hydrate yourself, resupply and generally provide sanctuary.
Then again, it also helps that I've got a mods that connect storage between all settlements. And instead of desperately searching for something to sleep in every time I wanna save, I have regular saving enabled because fuck that other noise. And fuck not fast traveling, the map is way too goddamn big for me to run back and forth constantly.
But even with those mods, I felt more like I was scraping by in the wastes and having to make tough encumbrance decisions on whether I should drop my aluminum that I wanna use to upgrade my power armor, or pick up a typewriter to break down for a sniper rifle part (sniping is pretty much paramount to succeeding in Survival mode)
I like this comment. Very informal.
Why do you bring up survival mode when you basically disabled the main aspect of survival mode, IDGI! Being able to spam save anywhere makes it not really survival. Not trying to be a gate keeping ass, just genuinely confused why people do this. Anyways, I otherwise I agree with your point, especially for actual survival mode, where dying is actually frightening and every tiny advantage is worth scratching for. It really pushes you to use things instead of hoarding them. Any time you die and loss progress you think "if only I had spent some extra time looking for that component for that upgrade before I came here..." Then you reload that day and do that instead of running head long into the thing that got you killed again.
@@ThrottleKitty the reason I would do this is because losing potentially hours of progress because I forgot to sleep in a bed that’s half a map away and now don’t have any of the loot I just spent scouting the wasteland for doesn’t make me feel like I deserved to lose hours of progress. It just demotivates me from playing the game.
@@SirMelon-iv9gk but then what's the risk? If you're playing surviva with basically no risk then why are you playing in survival?
I know the crafting system is probably objectivly bad in Fallout 4, but I personnaly like it. Searching every building can be tedious, yes, but for me, it adds to the immersion. To me, exploring and searching everywhere to gather some scrap to build things makes me feel like a scavenger in a post-apocalyptic setting trying to survive. And a lot of the stuff you you can craft is REALLy neat, and can't be aquired anywhere else. Also, building settlements is fun.
*"Crafting is (kinda) Pointless"*
Me cooking food in Genshin Impact: *_*stops cooking*_* and sits deep thought
At least it's pretty satisfying in that game imo lol
True, genshin impact totally defy all normal game cliche,
Potion and food is useless.
Me: eating and using all potion before childe lol
Tbf Genshin is probably the only game I ever crafted/used those types of consumables
Literally just commented how Genshin's crafting is actually amazing.
ay but botw does this perfectly imo
I really liked the way Kingdom Come did their alchemy system. It actually was a process and felt... good/rewarding
not like skyrim where you just spawm the button until you ran out of supplies. Kingdom Come had one of the best alchemy system of all games.
The mention of alchemy in regards to good crafting system reminds me of the minecraft mod Thaumcraft. Such an awesome mod.
The best part is when you got the skill high enough you could automatically brew potions
I felt It because a chore really quickly and I stopped using It at all. Sharpening your blade was cool, you can do It in like 10 seconds, but It takes like a whole minute to brew a single potion, unless you know It by memory.
Definitely agree here. Crafting in games like Skyrim feels like something I should do, but it's boring & tedious, so I never do it. Conversely, crafting is my favorite part of Spiritfarer (aside from crying during the story of course) because it is fun, engaging and tied to the progression of the game. I know I just restated some of your points, but I wish developers would think about their crafting systems a bit more. Great video, keep up the good work!
As a tabletop RPG player I have to question the necessity of making item creation "impactful". From my perspective in RPGs at least it seems like it should just be an optional play style.
That’s what I also think. It should be a play-style that rewards you differently to another. Which is why I found it amusing that he never mentions fallout 4s settlement system and charisma build allowing you to start your own businesses and get caps or how survival mode impacts crafting. It’s like he’s barley played the game.
@@greasergoon I love being able to adjust weapons in FO4.
Cause how I like to play or use stuff is often different from other people.
Something that can make crafting different from shopping is if you have a way to intentionally search for a given material, instead of just gradually accumulating random bits and bobs then seeing what you can make.
Starfield & Palworld comes to mind,
love it or hate it, Starfield Crafting System & Outpost Building is Very rewarding.
Having a new Capabilites, Buffs and Capacities, or even just crafting for making Money,
all of that is one of the most addicting gameplay in game.
i like a Deep and Bottomless Crafting System, like there are so much to craft, and diversity of things to craft,
that there is always a goal to improve further
sadly, not everyone like Crafting, and it's okay, because most of the time the game will just put Loot for you,
you can play the game without touching any Crafting at all.
but for Hard Mode, Crafting is a Must,
because you need to utilize every thing that the game offer,
every buffs, every attachment, Status Effect.
and it's more rewarding that way
compared to Easy Mode, it was sad because most items and material are often considered as a junk item,
because most enemy only took 3 hit to kill.
9:52 ”ultimately, I just want to feel like I’m Batman”
Nope, you are nitpicking and biased, I win, bye bye
Don't we all?
For me, Fallout 4’s crafting is a core mechanic. I spend hours exploring the waste before heading back so I have to decide “should I take this, or drop this? Maybe I’ll just take this...” as I keep exploring.
i spent hours and hours building towns AND crafting weapons, i loved It.
The settlement building was really cool, but unnecessary for gameplay. The weapon crafting was necessary to improve weapons, but it was too easy to get a pimped out weapon that never needs further upgrades.
The thing about this is, while you can absolutely have fun with it and make it a big part of the game, it offers extremely little over just playing the game organically if you just want to progress through the story and missions. You may temporarily enjoy a 2-3 percent boost to effectiveness, but a simple perk upgrade can outstrip the benefits any crafting can provide because recipes are tied to levelup anyway. As the video points out, it is progression wise functionally irrelevant and the benefits you gain from it could just as easily be gained from simply focusing on leveling up faster (due to the recipe level gating).
If crafting was so impactful that using it gave you a significant advantage, it would punish you for not devoting time to find a sufficient amount of certain materials like glue or oil, which at this point becomes a chore. Having to trek and backtrack through many (often unimaginative and repetitive) ruins just to find that one piece of glue you need to make a weapon that will allow you to progress would be _awful_ . On the other hand, if it gave you a significant advantage _and_ it was easy enough to get all the materials without being obtrusive, it is now again functionally irrelevant, because you might as well just replace it with more perks, loot drops and freely configurable weapons for the same benefit.
Fallout 4 is a game that pretends that it's about crafting and that doing so is important, when that is demonstrably not the case. Its crafting system, while well designed in execution and creativity, is severely hamstrung by how stupidly resources are allocated through-out the world, how it's almost impossible to specifically search for the things you need without just arbitrarily exploring and hoping for the best, and just how little it matters. Yes, there are methods for repeatable, centralized access to resources (merchants, farming), but they are so far endgame and requires devoting significant time, resources(more laborious exploration) and perks, at which point you could already have finished the game and done every available major side-quest with the same amount of effort and time. In truth, Fallout 4, is an open-world loot-based "RPG" with a minecraft-esque building game awkwardly bolted on top.
While fallout 4s system did a great job implementing crafting and building I have a real hot take here...76 did it better in every way. Yeah I know 76 is a buggy, broken, damn near unplayable "game" that for the first year of it's existence didn't even meet the minimum requirements to even be called a fallout game but when the game did work I found it's crafting system to be leagues beyond 4s. Having to actually explore go find building plans instead of just magically knowing them was brilliant, having to scrap weapons you find to learn more upgrades for that weapon made even picking up what would have been normal vender trash more interesting. Had the game actually fucking been a game at launch rather than a buggy scam I think the community would have absolutely fallen in love with the new mechanics but nope Bethesda dropped the ball and the game did so poorly that zenimax sold to microsoft to recoup their losses.
@@ircubic that's just not accurate at all. The resources are placed in areas that they would logically be in the real world for example let's say you need abraxo for something where would you logically find that? Well there are super market that would have sold it, laundromats that would have sold it, janitorial closets might also carry it since it was multi purpose cleaner and so on but let's say you need screws well 2 of the most common items that contain them are desk fans and type writers. Now where would you logically find most of these things if you guessed office building you would be right so you should probably check one of the many down town office buildings. The issue isn't that the game has its resources poorly distributed it's that you are unable to use basic logic and figure out where the item you are looking for would logically be.
My problem is when games just make their crafting options overblown, along with the materials in the world. It's the key before the door vs. the door before the key. If you get given a key, you think "Huh, neat". But if you get shown a door, now you're intrigued. You WANT to get through it. So when you find the key now, it means so much more.
I think a weird solution to many open world crafting options is "General Use Ingredients". Something where "Fallim Berries", "Maple Leaves", "Gacho Moss", etc aren't specifically required for any craftable items, but are general ingredients that can all be used to make Healing Salves or another item that is used often by the player. That way when the player crafts a bunch of Healing Salves and they look in their inventory to see that "Patterned Dew Leaves" weren't consumed, they can then realize that not only is it an item likely used for something else, but that they should pay more attention to where they get them from now on.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance had a pretty cool potion brewing system.
thats tru
I actively enjoyed brewing a good number of potions in a row. Also having the perk to up strength while gathering flowers was also nice
Oh god Your not wrong but the pain of hours spent trying to figure out what I’m supposed to do was so annoying but besides that kingdoms comes a pretty good game people just don’t understand the combat in this game
@@spiritorange8325 the solution to that is the same as the solution to your character not knowing how to fight, training for hours on end.
I actually had a very different experience in fallout 4, though I was playing with the difficulty turned way up. A lot of my weapons in the early game were in a constant state of modification and improvement and anything and everything I found was a potential upgrade to something I was using. Then this bottomed out by about the start of midgame and just fell through completely shortly after when pretty much all of the endgame weapons had virtually no modifications.
Those early moments when you turn a few pipe pistols into different rifles chambered for different ammo types and modified for different situations feel great. Then you get a gatling laser where your only choices are "shoot fast" and "shoot slow" and all of the fun is gone. I can't help but feel most games are doing it fundamentally wrong as a result. None of those pipe rifles were all that much better than any of the others, but the fact I could alter them to solve different problems instead of being better/worse felt far better. Likewise, that fancy legendary two shot laser rifle is just... done once it has the proper customizations. No point touching it. It's much more interesting when modifications actually have reason to switch between them. Changing a gun to fire a rarer/more expensive ammo that is more damaging is not a straight upgrade, but a sidegrade with pros and cons and thus encourages you to engage with the system beyond just clicking the "upgrade" button.
I did like that about fallout 4, honestly. The pipe rifles were very customizable, and made that beginning part very interesting to play through. I wish that level of customization was available for melee weapons, however.
@@nybxcrotona Putting a sketch scope made from screws on my pipe rifle was one of my favourite first upgrades in the game. Having a variety of scopes was probably my favourite upgrades in general, as everything else just seemed to be flat stat upgrades, so you aimed for the best and then you were done.
I actually really like Fallout 4’s crafting system. It makes sense that people would be scavenging in a post apocalyptic wasteland full of broken building and it makes total sense that you’d do this too. It also makes sense that you can buy or find modified stuff in the same way that people can make food or buy it or buy materials to make it. It’s a great way to feel like you’re in the wasteland when you’re rummaging through ancient buildings to find that one thing you desperately need to finish a project
I feel like crafting in most games is just tedious, not difficult, fun, or even rewarding .
Perfect example: rdr2
Before any of you go fanboy mode, let me explain first
Crafted items are MUCH better than the base items, however the problem is that you don’t need them and that they are tedious
You can already do 99% of everything with just the base items and some extras
Not to mention the fact that the ingredients needed for these items are just difficult to find and uninteresting to get
It basically is: shoot animal get skin and do that 50 more times
So in reality, there is no reason for these crafted items
I think that’s the majority of systems in RD2, almost none of the open-world systems have an effect on the actual narrative play through.
RDR2 feels like it is stuck between a survival game and a open world action game, and that is why it fails in so many systems it tries to do. The camp, crafting, hunting, cleaning guns etc all of these systems are so great in theory, but in practice they are annoying and completely pointless, because there is almost no reason to use them.
I get where you're coming from but the truth is, I like that. The crafting in the game is more to slow things down, set the pace, and enjoy the world. You feel like your character is actually doing that stuff.
But rockstar knows that a lot of people just want to get through the game shooting everything that moves, so they don't make those tasks an obligation.
I often go back to the game just so I can do those mundane tasks, because they're exactly what makes me love that world so much.
The problem I had with crafting in RDR2 is crafting the best stuff was almost not possible til really late in the game. I gave up on it because by the time I could spend hours to craft items I was basically done with the game.
I totally agree. RDR2 is one of my favorite games, but the crafting and some other aspects are a bit scuffed. It's like they were attempting to shove a survival game into the middle of a wild west narrative