Keep in mind that just a couple years earlier, US companies were helping to upgrade the Shenyang J-8II with modern F-16 avionics via the "Peace Pearl" program (it was cancelled before any production aircraft were made afaik).
@@RocketToTheMoose that's interesting, because I would assume the project would be immediately halted, especially any technology transfers after the incident, but guess not. Maybe it was put in limbo by the state department , and the Chinese just thought it was a dead end at that point.
According to John W. Golans book, the IAI Lavi was a program to essentially replace the long-serving A-4 Skyhawk. The Israeli defense sector geared up to produce a large batch of Lavis, even planning to sell them to the U.S. at one point . Thus, many U.S. companies contributed to the Lavi project , including Pratt & Whitney who built the PW1120. Which was essentially a downsized F-15/F-16 engine. The party stopped in the 1980s. With Israel’s economy suffering massive inflation due to understandably high defense spending , the Lavi became too expensive & was cancelled in favor of ordering what became the F-16I Sufa. Yes, it was ultimately cheaper than building the Lavi, but the decision gutted the Israeli aerospace sector. John Golan’s research shows some participants of the Lavi program performed engineering consulting work in China - but no further evidence exists linking Israel with the J-10.
EF2000's canards are far from wings while J10's canards are near wings. J10 has triangle wings while Lavi has backswept wings. J10 has large canards while Rafale has small canards. Big different areodynamic designs.
The planform started as the European Agile Combat Aircraft (ACA) and TKF-90 (Taktisches Kampfflugzeug 90) program in the 70s, which evolved into the Experimental Aircraft Programm (EAP) program. The results from ACA and EAP were: the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale (after France left the EAP/Typhoon program, because they needed a naval design) and the X-31 (MBB contributed the wing from their TKF-90 design to the X-31). The two contractors in the X-31 program were Rockwell and MBB. At the same time Rockwell also did design and engineering for Israels IAI and for China as a contractor and Grumman helped China in building and developing their next generation fighter Jet until the embargo following the tiananmen square masacre. So in the end, it's pretty clear why these birds all look pretty much the same and share certain features.
IDK if it's fair to say that the Lavi had that big of a role in J-10's development, of course the article is on the National Interest so there's that grain of salt to take. The J-10 is a bigger and more advanced jet than the Lavi, and was started much later than it too. The J-10's development contract was awarded in 84 while the Lavi was cancelled in 87. The deisgn is not too surprising as the Euro-canard configuration was slowly becoming accepted at that time as the best option for fighter jets with projects like the Typhoon, Rafale and X-31. The data from Lavi most likely did have some input in J-10's development but the J-10 also seems to be more optimised for air to air than the multirole Lavi
@@hikari2hikari2 That's the conclusion that I came to myself too since the J-10 is much bigger and more powerful than the Lavi but they both have more or less the same MTOW
The side-on view shown is pretty much the only perspective where a Lavi looks like an F-16, and even then it's at best a second or third cousin rather than a direct descendant: there's some resemblance in the nose forward of the cockpit, the vertical fin, and the location and (from this angle) appearance of the engine intake, but pretty much everything else is different. The comparison to a single-engine Eurofighter (or Rafale) is apt.
the Lavi was based on the F-16. Israel gave it to China. Israel also gave a complete Patriot missile battery to China in the early 1990s right after Gulf War 1.
@@jack99889988 "Unbeknownst to U.S. officials, however, at some point the Chinese also initiated talks with Israel. As a result, according to a declassified Air Force study obtained by the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,, the Chinese version of the Lavi-which has been dubbed the F-10 by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization-will be "built in large numbers" by the year 2003 "and will possess a radar-evading [read stealth] capability." Currently, China's most sophisticated aircraft are domestically-produced copies of the Russian MiG-21 Fishbed fighter, a relatively slow, short-range day fighter which first saw service in 1956. Morton Miller is a retired State Department intelligence analyst who formerly tracked sales to Beijing of other Israeli weapons, some of which also have involved illegal Israeli export of other sophisticated U.S. defense technology to China. He has told journalists that the close defense relationship between Israel and China dates back to the mid-1980s, and involves the transfer of "five billion dollars' worth" of U.S.-made computers, high-tech electronics and advanced manufacturing equipment used to create long-range missiles, nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction." www.wrmea.org/1996-january/us-military-technology-sold-by-israel-to-china-upsets-asian-power-balance.html
@@bigearl3867 The F-16 almost certainly _was_ cheaper, though - the IDF was never going to order enough Lavis to realize anything like the F-16's economies of scale, not to mention any other benefits of operating a common fighter with most of the US-aligned world. Also, the F-16 was already in service (including with the IDF), whereas the Lavi was still years of testing and development away from being ready. And of course it's also _possible,_ though I don't know this myself, that the US government said, "Hey, we send you guys a lot of cash - and we'd really prefer for you to spend most of that money buying our stuff. Why do you need to develop an indigenous fighter aircraft when we're happy to keep building and selling you F-16s that fill the same roles?"
@@Philistine47 some south african engineers were also working on the project over there, and that is their account of what happened - political pressure and mounting costs.
Most of these people think they can copy a fighter jet design like they copy a paragraph within Microsoft word. But hey I don't blame them if that's the only argument they have about this.
The China watchers have them at 600+ with about half being the gen 4.5 C model. Pakistan have ordered 36 and started taking delivery. The consensus is that they have already slowed down production and not many more is expected to join the PLAAF, foreign orders is still possible. They are now exclusively building J-20 and Flankers (in very large numbers), the long distances of the west pacific favors the big twin engine designs.
You KNOW the Is-Ra-El helped the *compitition*. Always support your comrades... what ever 'ism they are to follow. Certainly give them financial help, from our coffers, here in NY.
Hey, as an aside, I'm now a old guy (but still good*). Back in the 90's, in England, I played in and won, in an old-school "F-16 Fighting Falcon" sim. Specifically, I did alright, BUT I did win the Mig-29 competition!
* Did my bits: paragliding(?) off Devil’s Dyke, UK; much skiing; motorcycle sprint track racing (won at Cadwell Park); five years of HEMA in Chile; and five+ years of sailing a ketch in southern California. Find you guys have much the right insight into the world and it's machinations.
Maybe the J10 got something from the Lavi, but also don't forget that the chinese contracted Grumman to help with the development of a figther and the contract was terminated after the Tiananen Scuare incident in 1989. So who knows who transferred more technology to China, Israel o USA
$60mil for a light defensive multirole jet fighter with delta wing and plan aligned canard control dynamics is a deal. PAK is saving lots of cash and strengthening thier AF. alot.
More specifically... Looks more like a 1984 BAe EAP... The Eurofighter Prototype that was on ice for 15 years. The EAP from it's side profile shares resemblances to the F-16... until you spin it to any other profile.
Not really. The canard placement of the Lavi is like the Rafale’s, ie solely used for cruise trimming and vortex generation at slow speed on wings. Typhoon is conceived after the German X35 and ACA concept of putting canards on the front ahead of the cockpit on the nose as a full fledged forward empennage for supermaneuverability.
The world was a very different place in 1988 when the J-10 took its first flight. Israel and other western nations shared technology with China beginning in the early 1980's. These two points in time are important because the Belin wall and Tiananmen square had not happened just yet. Both the Belin wall and Tiananmen square took place in 1989. The other thing that happened in 1989 was the Sino-Soviet Summit. This was when Russia and China began to work out the issues that had been at problematic since the 1950's between the two nations. Basically, the political landscape shifted rather quickly, and western nations began to reexamine their relationship with both China and Russia. We in America thought we were going to have a bromance with both of our former enemies. America began to watch what they had been sharing a bit more closly.
pakistan use J 10 as well . A middle east country has express interest in J 10 . There is a report mentioned J10 defeated Eurofighter in some mock combat exercises took place in Middle East .
@@andrewdavies3584 I am not trying promote any china weapons. Like Mover said : " don't underestimate your opponents" . So I just let people know what I have read. Hopefully someone is capable of look into it .
J-10A was pretty bad but most of those have been upgraded to J-10B which is considerably less bad. J-10C is mediocre in quality and decent in capability which is a big improvement. It is the low end fighter for the PLA. Mostly replaced the J-7 MiG-21 copy. Now J-10 has become the new fighter for schools and reserves to use for training and air policing.
Keep in mind that just a couple years earlier, US companies were helping to upgrade the Shenyang J-8II with modern F-16 avionics via the "Peace Pearl" program (it was cancelled before any production aircraft were made afaik).
I'm guessing that was before the Tiananmen thing which ended any military cooperation between us and the Chinese for good
@@GIN.356.A According to Wikipedia at least, the project continued for a year after tiananmen and then was canceled by the Chinese in 1990.
@@RocketToTheMoose that's interesting, because I would assume the project would be immediately halted, especially any technology transfers after the incident, but guess not. Maybe it was put in limbo by the state department , and the Chinese just thought it was a dead end at that point.
According to John W. Golans book, the IAI Lavi was a program to essentially replace the long-serving A-4 Skyhawk. The Israeli defense sector geared up to produce a large batch of Lavis, even planning to sell them to the U.S. at one point . Thus, many U.S. companies contributed to the Lavi project , including Pratt & Whitney who built the PW1120. Which was essentially a downsized F-15/F-16 engine.
The party stopped in the 1980s. With Israel’s economy suffering massive inflation due to understandably high defense spending , the Lavi became too expensive & was cancelled in favor of ordering what became the F-16I Sufa. Yes, it was ultimately cheaper than building the Lavi, but the decision gutted the Israeli aerospace sector. John Golan’s research shows some participants of the Lavi program performed engineering consulting work in China - but no further evidence exists linking Israel with the J-10.
EF2000's canards are far from wings while J10's canards are near wings. J10 has triangle wings while Lavi has backswept wings. J10 has large canards while Rafale has small canards. Big different areodynamic designs.
The planform started as the European Agile Combat Aircraft (ACA) and TKF-90 (Taktisches Kampfflugzeug 90) program in the 70s, which evolved into the Experimental Aircraft Programm (EAP) program. The results from ACA and EAP were: the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale (after France left the EAP/Typhoon program, because they needed a naval design) and the X-31 (MBB contributed the wing from their TKF-90 design to the X-31). The two contractors in the X-31 program were Rockwell and MBB. At the same time Rockwell also did design and engineering for Israels IAI and for China as a contractor and Grumman helped China in building and developing their next generation fighter Jet until the embargo following the tiananmen square masacre. So in the end, it's pretty clear why these birds all look pretty much the same and share certain features.
IDK if it's fair to say that the Lavi had that big of a role in J-10's development, of course the article is on the National Interest so there's that grain of salt to take. The J-10 is a bigger and more advanced jet than the Lavi, and was started much later than it too. The J-10's development contract was awarded in 84 while the Lavi was cancelled in 87. The deisgn is not too surprising as the Euro-canard configuration was slowly becoming accepted at that time as the best option for fighter jets with projects like the Typhoon, Rafale and X-31. The data from Lavi most likely did have some input in J-10's development but the J-10 also seems to be more optimised for air to air than the multirole Lavi
@@hikari2hikari2 That's the conclusion that I came to myself too since the J-10 is much bigger and more powerful than the Lavi but they both have more or less the same MTOW
The side-on view shown is pretty much the only perspective where a Lavi looks like an F-16, and even then it's at best a second or third cousin rather than a direct descendant: there's some resemblance in the nose forward of the cockpit, the vertical fin, and the location and (from this angle) appearance of the engine intake, but pretty much everything else is different. The comparison to a single-engine Eurofighter (or Rafale) is apt.
The Lavi looks like an F-16 fuselage and engine with Gripen delta wing and canard.
the Lavi was based on the F-16. Israel gave it to China. Israel also gave a complete Patriot missile battery to China in the early 1990s right after Gulf War 1.
@@jack99889988 "Unbeknownst to U.S. officials, however, at some point the Chinese also initiated talks with Israel. As a result, according to a declassified Air Force study obtained by the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,, the Chinese version of the Lavi-which has been dubbed the F-10 by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization-will be "built in large numbers" by the year 2003 "and will possess a radar-evading [read stealth] capability."
Currently, China's most sophisticated aircraft are domestically-produced copies of the Russian MiG-21 Fishbed fighter, a relatively slow, short-range day fighter which first saw service in 1956.
Morton Miller is a retired State Department intelligence analyst who formerly tracked sales to Beijing of other Israeli weapons, some of which also have involved illegal Israeli export of other sophisticated U.S. defense technology to China. He has told journalists that the close defense relationship between Israel and China dates back to the mid-1980s, and involves the transfer of "five billion dollars' worth" of U.S.-made computers, high-tech electronics and advanced manufacturing equipment used to create long-range missiles, nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction." www.wrmea.org/1996-january/us-military-technology-sold-by-israel-to-china-upsets-asian-power-balance.html
Iron eagle got a shout out! Nice
I actually loved that movie as a kid 😂
The IAI Lavi was cancelled, I believe, in 1986 by political forces within Israel.
F-16 was cheaper. At least that what Lockheed said.
@@bigearl3867 Lockheed did not manufacture the F-16 back in those days. It acquired that division of General Dynamics in the 1990s.
@@bigearl3867 The F-16 almost certainly _was_ cheaper, though - the IDF was never going to order enough Lavis to realize anything like the F-16's economies of scale, not to mention any other benefits of operating a common fighter with most of the US-aligned world. Also, the F-16 was already in service (including with the IDF), whereas the Lavi was still years of testing and development away from being ready.
And of course it's also _possible,_ though I don't know this myself, that the US government said, "Hey, we send you guys a lot of cash - and we'd really prefer for you to spend most of that money buying our stuff. Why do you need to develop an indigenous fighter aircraft when we're happy to keep building and selling you F-16s that fill the same roles?"
I heard it was the US that hinted the Israelis to stop the development
@@Philistine47 some south african engineers were also working on the project over there, and that is their account of what happened - political pressure and mounting costs.
Love all the smooth brains with "copy" argument
Most of these people think they can copy a fighter jet design like they copy a paragraph within Microsoft word. But hey I don't blame them if that's the only argument they have about this.
Any idea of the quantity expected?
The China watchers have them at 600+ with about half being the gen 4.5 C model. Pakistan have ordered 36 and started taking delivery.
The consensus is that they have already slowed down production and not many more is expected to join the PLAAF, foreign orders is still possible.
They are now exclusively building J-20 and Flankers (in very large numbers), the long distances of the west pacific favors the big twin engine designs.
The J10 looks like the bastard product of a drunken evening encounter between an F16 and a Typhoon.
How about the long forgotten F-16N
Developed from the scrapped J9 project, which started in 64 but got put on hold for decades due to china being china
You KNOW the Is-Ra-El helped the *compitition*. Always support your comrades... what ever 'ism they are to follow. Certainly give them financial help, from our coffers, here in NY.
Hey, as an aside, I'm now a old guy (but still good*). Back in the 90's, in England, I played in and won, in an old-school "F-16 Fighting Falcon" sim. Specifically, I did alright, BUT I did win the Mig-29 competition!
* Did my bits: paragliding(?) off Devil’s Dyke, UK; much skiing; motorcycle sprint track racing (won at Cadwell Park); five years of HEMA in Chile; and five+ years of sailing a ketch in southern California. Find you guys have much the right insight into the world and it's machinations.
IAI looks nothing like F-16. Yes the intake and gear is similar but it is actually much more similar to Gripen and Rafal
Maybe the J10 got something from the Lavi, but also don't forget that the chinese contracted Grumman to help with the development of a figther and the contract was terminated after the Tiananen Scuare incident in 1989. So who knows who transferred more technology to China, Israel o USA
The lavi had canards and so does J-10. So different.
The LAVI does look most like the early Eurofighter design studies.
$60mil for a light defensive multirole jet fighter with delta wing and plan aligned canard control dynamics is a deal. PAK is saving lots of cash and strengthening thier AF. alot.
Iron Eagle did prove that the F-16 is the best fighter ever made. It is known.
I'm with Mover--looks more like a Eurofighter knock off to me.
More specifically...
Looks more like a 1984 BAe EAP... The Eurofighter Prototype that was on ice for 15 years. The EAP from it's side profile shares resemblances to the F-16... until you spin it to any other profile.
Not really. The canard placement of the Lavi is like the Rafale’s, ie solely used for cruise trimming and vortex generation at slow speed on wings. Typhoon is conceived after the German X35 and ACA concept of putting canards on the front ahead of the cockpit on the nose as a full fledged forward empennage for supermaneuverability.
@@sfertonoc "German X35"?
@@sfertonoc Isn't the Rafale a different branch of development from the same project that spawned the Typhoon?
@@babalonkie my bad, meant the Rockwell-MBB X31 which was a joint US German project that the Typhoon was based on
The world was a very different place in 1988 when the J-10 took its first flight. Israel and other western nations shared technology with China beginning in the early 1980's. These two points in time are important because the Belin wall and Tiananmen square had not happened just yet. Both the Belin wall and Tiananmen square took place in 1989. The other thing that happened in 1989 was the Sino-Soviet Summit. This was when Russia and China began to work out the issues that had been at problematic since the 1950's between the two nations.
Basically, the political landscape shifted rather quickly, and western nations began to reexamine their relationship with both China and Russia. We in America thought we were going to have a bromance with both of our former enemies. America began to watch what they had been sharing a bit more closly.
pakistan use J 10 as well . A middle east country has express interest in J 10 . There is a report mentioned J10 defeated Eurofighter in some mock combat exercises took place in Middle East .
Some reports = Trust me bro. Provide proof.
@@andrewdavies3584 I am not trying promote any china weapons. Like Mover said : " don't underestimate your opponents" . So I just let people know what I have read. Hopefully someone is capable of look into it .
lying ass
@@andrewdavies3584 on google search . search for -> X DGPR_PAF PAK-QATAR JOINT AERIAL EXERCISE "ZILZAL-II" KICKS OFF IN QATAR
J-10A was pretty bad but most of those have been upgraded to J-10B which is considerably less bad. J-10C is mediocre in quality and decent in capability which is a big improvement. It is the low end fighter for the PLA. Mostly replaced the J-7 MiG-21 copy. Now J-10 has become the new fighter for schools and reserves to use for training and air policing.
Algorithmic engagement comment.
first time i see some fear in your eyes to tell the truth !!
oh yeah that's what i mean🤐😂
You guys should visit China! Its not what is shown on TV- pretty sure you guys will love it.
Its called the IAI LAVI the isralies devolped in the 80s
First comment
So special.
the canopy sucks compared to the viper.