The Great Debate: To Double Clutch OR Float Gears?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- The Great Debate: To Double Clutch OR Float Gears? In this video, Dave addresses the age old controversy over whether it's better to double clutch or float gears when driving a manual transmission big rig!
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Hey there driver. So glad to see that you dropped by to watch today's upload. Well, are you a die hard floater, a double clutcher or do you go with the flow and change it up as needed? It's a never ending debate!
I’ve been driving for 40 years and I’ve always floated my gears. Never had any problem. I just took care of my truck
The key to shifting and saving wear on tear on the truck is shufting it smoothly without grinding gears whether floating or double clutching. If either method is used correctly, the wear will be limited compared to just jamming the gears everytime a gear is changed. Double clutching wrong will damage things just as fast as floating gears wrong. Just do either one right and don't worry about it.
As a CDL driver who learns very slowly, teaching myself to float gears without grinding was the most satisfying part of my trucking career. I actually grinded much more when double-clutching.
What really sold me on floating the gears was the company that I worked for wouldn't pay to run the toll roads through Indiana and Ohio. But just about every load I took from my home base to the east coast (New York, Hunts Point) was take US 30 through Ft. Wayne, Indiana, before they built the by-pass around Ft. Wayne. US 30 made you learn to shift gears at just about every stoplight. None were timed to allow you to go through that town without stopping and starting a 100 times. By the time you got through Ft. Wayne your left leg was so tired that you needed to stop and give your leg a rest...
I've been OTR 30 years (in February) and, like you Dave, I do both. Even after all the years and miles, I still manage to scrape a gear now and then lol! Also like you, I've never had a clutch, transmission or driveline failure in over 3 million miles BECAUSE of how I maintain my equipment. I've been a driver trainer for the company that my tractors are leased to for nearly 25 years and, when a newbie scrapes gears in my transmission, I jokingly tell them that it's OK because they're gonna start making those gears out of rubber next year. Sure, it embarrasses them a little at first but, they get what I'm saying and try their damndest to improve. I keep them with me as long as I feel that they need to be and, I've never had a trainee break a truck OR have an accident (I keep tabs on them through the shop boss and safety department) as long as they're with the company. Many of them have gone on to become owner operators with the company themselves. I'm pretty proud of that.
BEST ANSWER ON THE DEBATE YET! Do what the truck feels like. Two Old wore out Internationals for farm use here. Heavy load going up hill, sometimes they like double clutching.
Well, I have always floated the gears and never have had any issues mechanically. The only time I use the clutch is to take off or when backing up. Everyone has a different opinion, but whatever saves the equipment and makes the driver happy is all that matters. Have a Happy New Years everyone, and stay safe out there.
I kind of do a bit of both. If I'm climbing the hill and I have to shift down yes I am double clutching. Amd usually double clutch coming down the gears float going up
I was a floater. Did have trouble when double clutching was not over reving the engine. I think the whole reason for double clutching is about timing. That second or two of double clutching is about equal to the pause in floating.
Thanks for doing this video!!! 2 million miles and 30 years no issues ever with clutch and always used it , now these low seats and tall sifters is another question
I believe 2 things, 1. Automatic trans takes too much control of the truck out of the hands of the driver, 2. A true driver knows when to float and when to clutch
I agree with the by feel. If there is allot of stress like low speed up a incline, then double clutch. Cruising onto the interstate, especially downhill on ramp, float.
I float
I single clutch out and float in
I float out and clutch in
I double clutch too.
I haul milk in a smooth bore tanker and it depends on my terrain, if I'm approaching a stop light etc, going up or down a slight grade, lots of gears turning in my brain going up and down the road too. Have to time shifts as well in preparation for the "bump" hitting the front of the tank.
I found what worked best was floating all upshifts, and just using the clutch once per gear on downshifting, to break the torque lock.
In Europe you only have Synchromesh transmissions nowadays so it's just like in your car, back in the day we had Eaton Fuller and you had to double clutch and it was seen as a skill and it was just fun and cool if you could do it without clutch, but some other trucks had their own unsynchronized transmissions and you couldn't even shift it without pressing the clutch, Eaton Fuller was the smoothest and you could shift them with a little press of your fingers, i think it's great that it's still used until today out in Canada and the United States, whatever you prefer I think it's a skill most people don't know about or have nowadays, keep the shiney side up and keep it rolling, greetings from the Netherlands
In other countries the modern cabovers have synchromesh gearboxes, like manual cars, and that makes floating gears impossible. You have to use the clutch, albeit you don't have to double clutch. I found that double clutching these synchromesh gearboxes, gives a smoother and easier shift.
I was always pretty good at floating gears. But I too would double clutch if the truck needed it. Heavy load going up hill, use the clutch. Heading down a smooth, flat road, float the gears.
It’s funny you mentioned testing. I tried my hand at teaching truck driving and found that it was easier to teach a kid that drove standard in a car to float gears and someone that never drove a standard to double clutch. The ones with a stick car never could get the concept of double clutching. I told them to move their left leg around when they shifted during the road test and it worked. Personally, I’m like you, I do whatever the situation calls for.
I prefer the manual transmission, also prefer floating but I feel what the truck wants to do
I got my Class A CDL without the automatic restriction in October of this year and the school I attended refused to teach double clutching. The head instructor there with 30 years of experience wouldn't even double clutch so I could at least watch it being done. He went on to claim a factory rep told a few years ago that todays transmissions are designed for floating and so double clutching should not be done. Would this be a case of another driving school lie?
Worked for my dad who owns a excavation company. He owned two dump trucks and taught me how to drive manual trucks and he taught me to double clutch. We had one truck driver that drove for the company 43 years and he floated the gears. I swear he was a magician driving when I was with him. When it was my time to go after my CDL it was such pain in the butt and I still don’t have it.
Which is amazing considering the examiner told me he’s never seen a double clutcher in years of him testing and was impressed I could do it. But sadly still failed over little nit picky things. I really need to go back and get it.
I drove for 38 years and was taught to double clutch.
My knees are still fine.
You make a great point about driving how the truck wants. When i had a manual truck i would float most of the time but there were times when clutching was better. I wish i still drove a manual but i drive what they pay me for
You drive with your eyes and shift with your ears, I always floated.
Have had several trucks I put million plus miles on. Never double clutched, never had transmission problems. Non issue!
Came out of trucking 20+ years ago. Only used the clutch when the situation called for it. I believe there are two areas of transmission wear that need to be considered. One is the metal particles generated by scratching the dogs while trying to engage a mismatched set, RPM-wise. These particles travel throughout the trans and cause wear to gear faces, bearings, and splines from their abrasive nature. It doesn't matter if you're clutching or not, this kind of wear will be a constant. The other kind of wear occurs around corner, on the face of the dog (ever drive a REALLY old truck that you had to hold in gear on a hard pull, or the stick would jump to neutral?) This wear occurs when taking it out of gear, without properly relieving the torque on the drivetrain, and is the rounding-over at the edge of the dog. I believe that this is the wear that make trans manufacturers to insist on clutching. Learning how to relieve the torque strain on the driveline IS the fundamental knowledge that separates them that knows and them that don't! Double-clutching is a band aid that'll disguise that lack of ability, but at the end of the day, you either get the concept, or you don't. I live across the road from a truck stop, on a busy stretch of state highway, and I get an earful of driveline abuse on a continuous basis. Maybe the slippery slope we're on started when everyone expected the truck to be equipped with air conditioning and power steering? It surely got worse with auto-slack adjusters. it is sad to see the death of fine skills in this industry. I like Dave's take on it: start listening to what the truck needs!
It's worth mentioning that modern clutches have an air assist. In all honesty, my right knee hurts a lot more than my left. And I've spent a hell of a lot of time shifting in traffic on the north side of Chicago when I was doing intermodal work. 98-99% of my shifts use the clutch
I miss the manual transmission we had. Now, our fleet is strictly auto-shift.
I absolutely refuse to operate a truck with an auto shift transmission. I kinda do what Dave mentioned. I drive by feeling what the truck needs. Sometimes I double clutch and other times I float. Just depends on the situation. Love the content
Well, as you know, I’ve had a knee (as well as a shoulder) replacement and they aren’t cheap. Mine was over 84k before insurance kicked in. It was my right knee, so clutch use is irrelevant in this case. Anyway, I was taught to double clutch in school, but once I got my first job, a veteran driver told me to “forget all that driving school bs, this is how REAL TRUCK DRIVERS shift,” and I’ve been a floater ever since. Also, to this day, I still have never driven a truck with an automatic transmission. I love my 13 speed! On a side note, I went to the Oak Grove Petro last night to find out that it is no longer owned by the Iowa 80 Group. The Moon family sold it to T/A about 6 months ago. They’ve completely taken out the restaurant and moved the chrome shop there and totally rearranged everything else in the front of the store. Not the same place it was at all. Happy New Year!
So insurance does not cover those surgeries? Yikes! That's crazy expensive!
No, it does, but the out of pocket is still astronomical.
He nailed it. Know and feel your truck. Sometimes float, sometimes double clutch and even single clutch.
As long as the industry needs to have heavy haul trucks, there will always need to be manual transmissions. I cannot fathom using an automatic while hauling a heavy load especially in the mountains. Sadly I drive for a company now that just bought new Freightliner Cascadias with 12 speed autos, but we always run very light. They definitely are more fuel efficient on the interstate, but way less fun to drive. Additionally, when the roads are less than perfect I miss the control of a manual.
I do heavy haul with an automatic. You realize the automatics are just automated manuals right?
@SmartTrucking
What you were saying about the big carriers ordering "auto trans" is true. I got hired by a large carrier in Ontario Canada when I graduated my CDL school. I trained on a 13 speed Eaton fuller manual, and my trainer at the company I got hired by was driving an International 13 speed Eaton fuller sleeper cab as well. It was great to get OTR training with the same transmission I learned on.
HOWEVER, all the other new trucks arriving at the company yards ? . . . . were coming with automatic transmissions :( . . . The guy that was training me had been with the company for over 30 years and told me only a select few drivers [the old timers] were allowed to 'request' manual transmissions when their truck was due to be replaced. Otherwise, they came with automatics.
He taught me how to "float" the gears too. To me, Luc is one of the very few real truckers left in the industry. I learned a heck of alot from him. Stuff that I'll never forget. They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, well, I was 59 years old [last year] when I graduated my CDL and started driving, and I learned stuff from him that I will take with me till the end of my short career.
I do both and it depends on the type of transmission and the load that's on. With heavier loads I double clutch more, and with stiffer transmissions I double clutch more
Spot on Dave. It's what the truck requires in a given situation. Just look at a wobbly gear shift and you'll know the driver hasn't been shifting properly, clutch or not.
I always double cluched.sometimes I would float
But 99 percent of the time I doubled
Great explanation by saying drive by feel.
Personally, I'm not sure I could double clutch successfully. As you suggest, drive by what the truck is asking for. Most of the time I float, but I do double clutch as necessary.
For decades I double-clutched until I got a job with a fuel hauler. My trainer (the worst on planet earth) told me over and over if I couldn't float the gears I wasn't a "real" truck driver. Just to keep him from ragging on me I learned how to float them. That job ended after 7 months but I still float the gears because it IS a bit easier. Only 3 of our 20 trucks have a manual trans anyway so soon enough it won't even be an issue.
I go back and forth depending, the 18 speed is the favorite for me. Unfortunately I've been at it so long I drive everything like a 1972 Mack. The new trucks power stroke is way low now but my ear tells me to add rpm's.
It depends on which gets you to ship to smoothest I was taught to float the gears I struggle to clutch now after 23 years of floating so I'm going to do what's easiest on me and what I think is easiest on a truck I use my clutch very limited
Here in Europe, Scania actually, even in the 90s recommended not double clutching or floating, but just single clutch changing. As they said both could damage the driveline.
Well the other great debate is do automatics really get better mileage than manuals. Personally I believe they do based on that computer is gonna shift better than human error. On a different note I moved into my 2023 389 today, which happens to be a manual 18 speed.
I'd say both, just depends on the situation. I'm going into a company with all autos and they felt so janky to drive. I learned in a daycab with a 6 speed and shifted it normally as a car (single clutch up and down with rev-matching) but that was a super light truck. If you got low weight and stress float. High stress high weight, double.
My favorite transmission by far has always been a 13 speed. Until I drove an automatic Freightliner Cascadia. Now I prefer to use the Manual mode on the automatic transmission with the 3rd Jake Brake Setting on. Way Way better than an actual manual transmission.
It depends on the skill level of the driver to float. But I've driven both and I prefer the automatic. If I drove tankers I'd go manual but the automatics are easier and In my opinion safer on grades. Love the boots btw
It's like 5% of new trucks being sold that are manuals. Only reason I know guys still use them is because they are old enough they don't require DEF. I know guys love their shifting but I'm over it. I like the better mpg on the autos. I like being able to tap a switch and force a downshift even downhill, when manuals are supposed to stay in gear. I like being able to keep two hands on the wheel.
Thanks, as you said this has always been the great debate. There was one comment that I can agree with and that is it depends on the skill level of the driver as well as the weight of the load. I prefer a manual myself but currently drive an automatic that I don't like especially in the winter.I started driving in 1978 and my favorite transmission was the 13 speed Road Ranger.
I almost always float when upshifting, but down shifts I'll clutch out, high rev, and float into lower gear. It's just the way this truck likes it. The heavier I am the easier it will float thru gears too though, up and down.
One of my trucker friends said his AT Peterbuilt accelerates slower, but the transmission has a longer factory warranty.
Was in the same truck for a little over 4 years and it wasn't new when I got it floated and used clutch. Never had a transmission problem. A rebuilt transmission is only a few grand a rebuilt knee is way more
I’ve been driving 22 years and my input is do what you fill comfortable with . Most of the time I’ll float, but depending on weight and incline I use the clutch to make the shift easier and SMOOTH! Just my 50 cents on the video
After 45 years I always Float unless I'm claiming up hill
I’d say you’re right in using whatever the truck is wanting at the time/what the driver does best. It’s seems every truck has its little quirks and you need to figure out what works best
21 years of driving in Australia 🇦🇺 in some of the heaviest trucks out there... and it's always a combination of "floating" the gears as you call it, and "double clutching"...
And also a combination of both, when it's required
Depends! If you're over the road, dbl clutching probably the way to go. I used to drive a tri axle picker truck, a lot of back roads and hills and a lot of shifting! I used the float method.
When I was in CDL school, I had to double clutch for both upshifting and downshifting. That was annoying. I'd much rather float the gears since it's way easier.
Definitely not a truck driver but am wanting to be, but if you ask me I think CDL schools should teach both methods. From what I've seen, both methods have their pros and cons.
Always like your updates
When I took my cdl I still couldn't double clutch. But I could float with the Jake. The instructor was not impressed 😂😂
Thank you for talking about this. For me it's the RPM ( RED) indicator on my RPM gage. Now saying this. On my baby a 1971 SeaGrave Engine. With a Detroit Diesel 8V-71 and Spicer/ Dana Transmission. If I am not at the right RPM it will never go in. I double clutch on the Lower gears. It won't shift otherwise. Then I tried floating in higher gears. It works. For me the Double Clutch and right RPM are the Key. But like you say. All the new class 8 are going Automatic. There is still a need for gearing, say Logging Trucks. Heavy haulers.
I do both. Depends on the whole situation I have .
Since even mechanics don’t agree, I chose to float. At least I won’t wear out the clutch plates. And it’s one less thing to coordinate when trying to be smooth. If you double clutch all the time though, I would think your muscles would get used to it and it wouldn’t fatigue you, no different than getting used to holding the clutch in at a red light or something.
Have a happy new year Dave and Kate and everybody. I wish I could be there with Trucking and listening to the stories and discussing Trucking.
It really depends on the driver. If you can float the gears right, you won't hurt anything. If you float and either drag out of the gear, or nick the next gear, you should use the clutch. I preferred the float method as I was taught that way. That said, driving something different or in a spot where you had to nail the shift, like downshifting on a steep grade, I used the clutch.
Same. . And when I'm empty, I skip gears speeding up, especially down hill lol
I taught a family I know from Church how to drive a stick (car).
I told the 14 yo daughter she needs to be the driver for the family since she's a natural. Her Mom never took her eyes off the floor, her Dad said the pedals should be bac rather than cba. I asked why & he said he likes to drive with both feet on the pedals (ba).
I do both. Sometimes gotta double clutch when under load uphill and gotta downshift or something like thst or in the morning
Yeah I drive by feel so before the truck comes to operation temp I'll double clutch afterwards I float the rest of the day, always by feel what the engine wants 👌🏾
Would like to double clutch or float the gears, but I drive in Europe and practically all transmissions are auto 😔😔 Hardly any skill required at all. No satisfaction of a grindless gear shift. Hang on to the Eaton Fuller's while they last. Non existent in these regions of the world. Best wishes for 2023. Thanks, EH.
I think there is a time and place for either
Just had a conversation with a driver today do whatever makes it easier for you either float the gears smoothly or double clutch smoothly you choose
I think the reason double clutching is taught is to stop the engine brake from activating when upshifting and downshifting. With older engines, double clutching when downshifting stops the Jake from messing up your shift entirely. Of course now with new electronic diesel engines the Jake turns off in Neutral on most trucks, so this isn't an issue anymore.
The multi million mile old timers that taught me to drive made me master double clutching. Once I did I shifted how I saw fit.
Method I used: If you can't find them grind them ! : - )
Haven't driven an 18 wheeler, but used to have a B-CDL and logged a couple hundred thousand miles driving flat beds for the tool&die/ mold shop's I worked for. All of those trucks were light enough that they only had six speed synchro transmissions, which meant that once I was moving, I didn't need to use the clutch. One shop I worked for, one of the owners got his CDL when I did. Gave his partner and a stamping die a lift to the customer; his partner was freaking out that I treated a truck with load north of 27,000 lbs like a sports car. The boss with the CDL was laughing his ass off when I got back to the shop, after getting my ass reamed by his partner. Came up at my next review; still got my raise.
My Father thought me to drive his truck. It had two sticks. He taught me to feel the truck and float the majority of the time and when the situation required it double clutch. I have to running for 20+ plus years.
My right foot cramps up in the Winter time from
holding the gas pedal to the floor
Double clutching is the way they designed the trucks to operate. You can still grind gears double clutching....but if done properly there is less chance of grinding and less damage to gears.
Air over Hydrolic assist in the peterbilts makes the clutch feel silky smooth and light. You don't even need knees to double clutch it
Clutch application also applies thrust load to crankshaft and bearings
I've done both.I've had days when double clutching seemed to work better on that truck. I've had trucks that floating worked really well. Could have been driver or truck or other conditions. Agree with @timhillard5105, it depends on the situation at the time. Drove a 3 pedal autoshift when they became available. Worked O.K. especially backing into docks,etc. Drove a 2 pedal autoshift a little later. Did not like it. That one was hard to gently touch dock or back up to another trailer to transfer product. Newer ones might work better, but this was in the infancy of autoshift. (on 3 pedal auto shift, use clutch to start and disengage when stopped. Computer floated gears while in motion).
luv to c u go on a trip and watch the master in axn.... Happy New Year.... cheers from down under
I'm a driver who has only completed a year, so I'm not sure which I prefer. I didn't get a lot of experience with manual trucks as the company that sponsored me was almost entirely automatics. I made sure to learn on a manual during school so I would not have the restriction on my CDL. Hilariously, before I went to trucking school, I had never driven a stick shift of any kind. So now I can tell people I learned how to drive stick on an eighteen-wheeler. Despite my lack of experience, I honestly prefer a manual truck, even though in my personal vehicle I prefer an automatic. There's no real advantage to a manual in a car, but automatic truck transmissions are still YEARS behind manual truck transmissions.
Didn't know better fuel efficiency and longer service life was considered years behind
Advantages with a manual in my car is speed shiftin and laying down scratch a test of your skills .
Thank you. So much information in such a short bit, you’ve done a fantastic job.
I wish that square nose peterbilts with a cat engine was the only truck that existed
You and me both!
Double clutched for my driver test, but the very first carrier trainer asked me if I double clutched...I said yes, and he said "we'll break you of that". I myself do both. I tend to do more D-C on down shifts, but in traffic, I will do so as well. I try to stay proficient at both.
Do the newer “automatic” trans float or double clutch when they shift? Since a majority are solenoid operated manuals.
What happens to a automatic driver when his automatic lays down and dispatch tows him a stick? I have seen that many times in my career. Plus they have a restriction on their CDL. I have worked with fellow drivers teaching them on my time smooth Manuel shifting so they can test out. Automatics are good but drivers need to be trained on efficient use of them. Automatics don't see hills up or down
As a former P&D city driver on a 10 spd Mack my preference was to double clutch the low gears and then floating the high gears. Was much smoother that way.
I did both like you, whatever felt better for the truck especially down shifting I might use the clutch.
The clutch gets no wear floating plus the linkage and bushings, double clutching wears the clutch linkage, bushings and possibly a rough driver can damage the driveline
Dave
Good evening
In places where mountain Range and full load are present floating gears are the Best way to drive
I float as much as I can, but I'm not afraid to hit the 3rd pedal if I need to. Sometimes it is easier to tap it in order to slide out of gear, but a lot of times it's not. Knowing how to do both and being able to drive smooth and by feel is what's most important
Must be in the front row, happy new year all!!!!!!
Both
My Dad drove 4 million miles, my Uncle Don drove 5 million miles. Both used the clutch, both have their original knees, and neither one ever had to replace the clutch
Four and five million miles and never had to replace a clutch what brand was that I would like to sign up for that
Always,always floated gears.Toward the end of my career the fleet was changing over to automatic,never drove one myself but the drivers that made the change loved them.Maybe it had to do with they drove the 5 borough’s of NYC.
I do both. It's hard to float gears when I'm heavy and accelerating especially in the mountains. i found that the gears stick and its not easy. Down shifting is the same
I do both, but more often, I float due to knee and hip pains.