People saying that casters are weak comes from a couple of very specific sources: the -4 shooting into combat penalty and not understanding how tanking works. For example, take a sorcerer as your main character, and don't take Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Now try to use that character to do damage. It just doesn't work, and the game is almost completely opaque as to why. Next, if you don't have a strong grasp of how tanking works in the game - for example, using Valerie with her tower shield fighting defensively - the enemies will run right past your tanks and kill your casters with impunity while they fire ineffective spells. The game exacerbates this problem in a couple of ways. First, it gives you default characters that take relatively deep knowledge of the system to make them effective in their default roles (Valerie, Harrim). Second, it does a very poor job of explaining why things aren't working. Without the logs, most people would have no idea ... and the logs aren't highlighted in the tutorial. How are people supposed to know that ranged-touch and ray-based sorcerers need high Dexterity and two feats in order to be minimally functional? The game plays up Sorcerers as straight combat spellcasters, but without the right specific builds they are helpless. And that's why people think casters are weak.
Yeah, I have to admit the game is pretty poor at telling people what's what if they've no experience of the table top. I had to put aside hours of reading and watching online to figure some of this stuff out.
Actually, Val and Harrim are quite the "dynamic frontline duo", with Shieldwall. One tank is most often not enough to stop the enemy rushing the casters; and Harrim as archetypical dwarven melee cleric has little to do with his feats than to buff his defenses anyways. Just do neither expect him to work as your main tank, nor him excel in offensive spell slinging, in comparison to the full-caster Ecclesitheurge. But he provides very solid frontline buffs, and can effectively fill two party slots as once.
All that does is put your healer on the front line to die - +2 AC is not enough to make up for Harrim's lack of defense. Neither of them can hit well, and in Pathfinder it's the threat of attacks of opportunity that make enemies "stick" to the tank (or die). If your tank can't hit, then they can't do their job.
@@aetius9 actually his main healer which he said was the Ecclesitheurge. The cleric would be secondary heals/tank. Read the post again if you don't understand...
@Aetius: Nope. Harrim in full plate/heavy shield can easily go over sufficient-not-great 30 AC with buffs and all these free feats; and the job of a tank is exactly not damage. AoOs have quite little to do with the AI`s target preferences, at least if you can successfully put up a road block with several characters. It is rather the other way around: You get flanking bonuses for your (squishy) damage dealers, like Amiri or Jaethal, even if distractive Harrim himself does not exactly represent a threat. ;) - If Harrim dies, then mostly for him having huge will and forti saves, but non-existent reflexes. :P Finally: Reducing a cleric to a healer function does no good. If you really want your cleric, who is professional at staying alive, to cowardly hide away from the front and center, where he belongs , and where he largely contributes to the team`s efforts, go with that sad choice Tristian. ;)
I think the video shows pretty well what people are actually complaining about: How weak damaging spells are. And think they have a point. You are completly right casters overall are super strong and all of those buffs/debuffs are key in winning the fight. But once you look at the actual damage potential of those casters it gets sad very fast. Look at the inflict critical wounds for example. 4d8+level. So what was your level 8? 12-40? That means he deals on average less damage than your amari with a single hit and that is the highest spell he can cast for you atm. Every spell that is even worth considering deals damage to your own guys too so you got to do alot of micro management. I just feel like it isnt worth to pick any damage spells and considering what you picked for this video you kinda agreed. Go for heal/utility and use martial classes to deal damage. Plus as you said those characters arent optimized and optimized fighter types deal more damage with each hit while casters just can cast more often with the same damage (some tiny exceptions like favorite spell thingy). So I would even say that casters get worse the better your characters get. I am at level 13 now and I pretty much just use one divine caster to keep my guys alive and 1 arcane to buff them (the magus orc guy) aswell as the bard as like a semi caster for buffs. I even created one of those mercenarys to test out the damage potential and picked everything that made his spells damage better but he just felt wasted. Better to use another martial class. That is the reason why some people arent happy. They imagined a caster as a destruction machine not as a buff machine.
in Tabletop Pathfinder the main advantage of Damage spells is they generally hit EASIER if not AUTOMATICALLY, so it makes a Modicum of sense why their raw damage is lower. Fireball for Instance ALWAYS HITS, but it has splash damage and a reflex save, Magic Missile ALWAYS HITS, so you need say Shield or something to counteract it. Scorching Ray is a Ranged Touch attack as is Acid Arrow, essentially it goes around armor and you have to dodge it. The lower damage is a balacing act. You don't always HIT with a Sword strike or Arrow strike, but spells ALWAYS hit or at least much more easily. I just think personally alot of people who just play videogames but not nessacarily PF or D&D or other PnP RPGS. Also spells like MM are much more versatile in Tabletop since you can divert some of those missiles to multiple opponents. D&D/PF follow a very general principle that casters at least early on are kind terrible, but once they get around level 5 or 6 they start becoming amazing in terms of buffs/debuffs and magical damage. They are also more easily able to deal different elemental types of damage, say corrosive or fire damage to deal with pesky trolls or aoe damage to deal with swarms, that other non-caster classes may have more trouble with/more workarounds for. Though personally I think it's a matter of a opinion.
I believe we need to think spells according to their levels and I don't believe damaging spells are weak. My main is sage sorcerer(not sure if it is good or bad choice) focused into evocation. I did not played PnP Pathfinder but made quite research after I started to play Kingmaker for several hours. After realizing I need high DC to become effective, I got evocation focus, greater focus, elemental focus, spell penetration, spell focus, high ability stat, items like fire amulet etc. For example with quicken(with rods or feat) I can cast 2 chain lighting(although not effected by elemantal focus) in one turn and if enemies are warrior heavy, hardly somebody will save. So lets say 5 warriors and nobody saved, 50-60 damage each*2 is 500 damage right of the bat. This not weak :) Also fireball, since it is low level spell you can heighten, empower etc but even without anything I one shot nearly all goblins and their threat is their crowded numbers and sneak attacks. Also fire snake as directional AoE. For single target hell fire ray is capable of dealing serious amount of damage like 200-300 and since it is fire+unholy, it bypasses resistances. And finally there are OP spells, imho, like disintegrate and prismatic spray that can one shot anybody. Also it changes with perspective too. You give example of critical wound 4d8+level. I look at it as reverse heal because in my opinion it is defensive spell then offensive spell just like cure wounds. Actually both are same just one is positive energy and other is negative. For players who like Jaethal or summon undead that is skill and its mass versions are quite important. I am not trying to explain every spell but what I was trying to tell is spells are situational, in correct situation or used correctly they are devastating. You can kill 3 greater owlbears in hunting grounds without hitting a single melee attack or you can make Irrovati bow to Linzi with one spell :D that was my favorite moment so far :D
i personally wouldnt be using inflict X wounds to deal damage. i'd be using my cleric as a summoner and buff/healer. IMO, channeling is really good and a critical part of the game once you get to kingdom management (so you arent spending as much money on potions/scrolls). as for damage dealers.. IMO, a sorcerer is the best for that as they get more spells per day than a wizard and dont have to worry about memorizing. and once you start getting 4th level spells, sorcerers can start to cast quite a few spells per day, particularly if you have over a 20 charisma which isnt hard to do. also, once you get to 5th level sells, you can start putting up maximize metamagic feats and changing things up that way. depending on how you build your sorcerer, you can really increase the damage at higher levels. doing things like a quicken fireball combined with a maximized metamagic rod fireball in the same round can really increase the damage quickly. in this example, you could potentially do 120 damage in one round with those fireball spells.. and you are guaranteed to do at least 70 damage. at even higher levels you can cast 2 hellfire rays in a round..EACH RAY (total of 3 PER spell cast.. so 6 all together) does 15d6 points of damage.. thats a minimum of 105 points of damage in one round to a max of 180... PER RAY. arcane trickster is also good because it combines martial with magic.. they can buff your party and debuff enemies like any other wizard and deal out a decent amount of damage at the same time. even 0 level cantrips, which are free to cast (no need to rest to renew) can deal out 15 to 20 damage on a regular basis because of sneak attack. the cantrips also count as a magic spell which work great for killing trolls and other monsters where that is an issue. on top of this, you can cast scorching ray and include sneak attack damage. this means, when you reach level 11, you can cast 3 rays in an attack, each doing 4d6 points of damage, plus sneak attack damage. and this is before any metamagic feats. also, at higher levels, arcane tricksters can get feats that add sneak attack damage to ANY damage spell. that means even magic missile will do sneak attack damage. you add sneak attack to hellfire ray, metamagic rods and feats.. and it can get crazy pretty quickly. these are just a couple of ways you can get good damage output from casters. in the end, casters have the potential to do the most damage, but they arent the easiest builds to work with. and its true that not every caster is going to be a high damage dealer. and you have to plan ahead. you also have to rely on resting, which in video gaming is a hassle. so it all depends on how you want to play.
I agree a caster should be doing at least 3-4 times the damage of a basic fighter with a melee weapon. Mages in dnd are on another level to the tens of thousands standard town guards they are in every city.
This is a very important video for anybody having trouble with PKM to watch if they do not already understand the truth of the message contianed in it. There is a reason for the old D&D adage: go for the guy in the dress first. That reason is if you don't he will ruin youy day PDQ. But the single most important lesson from this video, which is entirely correct IMHO, is that you do not need to min-max charcters or use only mercs or find the "best weapons" in the game to succeed. You just need to understand the mathematics of magic in D&D games and the power of teamwork. What the hell does it matter if your fighter is doing 12-26 dmg per hit instead of 14-30 if her target is rolling round the floor laughing, fleeing for their lives or simply stunned?
I think that your points are spot on about casters not being weak. Their buffs/debuffs/support spells are awesomely powerful, once you really start to think about it. I think that the problem is that casters "feel" weak the way they are presented in this game. When I first made a character, the first thing I made was a sorcerer and I expected to be shooting fireballs and blowing stuff up. However, if I want to actually be effective in my party as a sorcerer in this game, what I do more than anything is cast buffs on my party members, and then sit back and pretty much do nothing for most fights. Because of the rest system, if I don't want to waste time resting all the time, the most efficient thing to do is buff my party and watch my martial classes mop everything up because that is how you get the most bang for your buck out of your resources. Honestly, I think the core of the problem is that this is a PnP adaptation, instead of a system created specifically for video games. For example, as a sorcerer in a game like Divinity 2 or Pillars of Eternity 2, you can feel awesome as a magic caster because you can use all of your powerful spells every fight, and feel like you've made a visceral impact every fight. In pathfinder you get the "oh I am so cool, I blew them all up with a fireball" feeling 1/10 fights, maybe. Or if you are like me, you just never use it because you are holding it for the next big fight that might be around the corner. This problem is further compounded by the fact the game specifically has game mechanics that punish you for resting often because so many of the story elements and other systems like the barony system are linked to time passing in game. As a result, the most optimal way to play the game becomes to eschew using anything other than buffs with long durations because that is what allows you to move from fight to fight quickly without spending resources. As a result, casters tend to "feel weak" in this game because most of the time in combat, they aren't doing anything other than plinking away with a crossbow or something. Additionally, in this game, they don't have as much utility outside of combat as they do in PnP, further compounding the problem. Using your own example, haste does 40-60 damage every turn with the extra attack alone, at the minimum, and has a whole bunch of additional utility, including defense and accuracy so why would you ever cast fireball instead? They are in the same spell level, and yet one is just vastly superior in almost every way. But the problem is, haste isn't exciting or sexy. "I made all of my teammates better in incremental ways, that, in aggregate, made the fight trivial" is not nearly as cool as "I MELTED ALL THOSE SUCKERS WITH A FIREBALL!!!" or what have you, you know? The latter would probably grow tiresome in a team based PnP experience, but in my single player video game, why the hell not be able to just blow shit to smithereens with my big stupid fireballs, you know? As a result, when I play this game as a magic user, instead of feeling like a big powerful wizard, I pretty much feel like an accountant, or a quarterback that just hands the ball off to a star running back all game and never gets to do much on his own. That's Just my two cents as to why "the community" is reacting the way that it is about it. Thanks for the video!
You don't cast fireball instead you cast both. Or have someone else cast haste. The need to rest is no different than in the tabletop. Magic has always been about resource management. How much of a problem this is in tabletop depends on how often your dm let's you rest. This game let's you rest as much as you want. You simply have to consider your deadlines.
@@natanoj16 And my point was that it works just as it works in the tabletop games. The problems he has exist all the same in a by the rules tabletop game.
@@natanoj16 And I am saying that doesn't math. His complaint with the spells per day system is equally applicable to the tabletop. His issue is with spell per day itself and not it's adaptation to the computer. It is a fine complaint as I have some of my own. But if he didn't experience these problems playing the tabletop, then his dm was very generous with giving long rests and providing no cost for doing so.
I was frustrated about this as well, but later saw it as opportunity to try out unusual spells. Some of them I even liked. But, let's be honest, buffmongers are best in this game.
the pen and paper Guides, especially treantmonks one, really changed my idea of the arcane casters. they are not here to destroy the enemy. the fighter does that all day much better. they are here to provide all the things that other classes cannot. fly, protect, buff, entangle, grease, enlarge, AOE, Debuff, enchant, illusion.
Then why would anyone play a mage type character in the pnp? Pathfinder casters sound like equipment with maintenance. FFS even in the video the guy says he can start to replace caster spells with equipment. Pathfinder sounds like an extremely dull RPG system. No wonder it is so niche. It caters to players wanting to kill things with a sword.
Thats not true, casters can deal great amounts of damage mid to late game, don't expect them to be killing machines early game. Melee classes will never be able to wipe an entire room in a second nor have the same utility, what makes melee classes good is that they will always been at their max potential because they don't have to manage resources like casters do.
Haste has been op since Baldurs Gate 1. :P One of my favorite things in the old Infinity Engine games was to overlap Web and Entangle and then unleash Fireballs, Prismatic Sprays and Horrid Wilting on crowds caught inside. You can do the same in Kingmaker.
Casters can buff your real damage dealers which are martial classes, that single damage spell you can do per turn gets saving throwed against majority of enemies compared to the 5 high dmg attacks your martial classes do per turn. Debuffs are a joke, your feated and specialized spells with their DC 20 just never hit against enemies they're meant to be used on, the tough enemies (with their +20 save mods) not some random bush bandits or goblins. Only reason to use a caster is to get buffs like Haste and debuffs that have no save against them like Enervate. If it has saving throw against it then it's pretty much a waste of spell slot.
I don't know if i agree with this. Sometimes it's t good to have de uff and damage spells. Even if they save the spell, at least some damage is better than no damage and it can give an easier time to finish the enemies quick.
Simulacrum, Time Stop, Chain Contingency, Pierce magic, Lower Resistance, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting. Baldur's gate 2, the good old time. Made me feel like Momonga in Overlord preparing the fight against Shalltear.
Spell selection is one of the biggest hurdles to new players playing casters. Both in the game, and in the pen and paper version. ( casters are even better in PnP, since there are more spells, and alot of things you can do with them, that are near impossible to script in a videogame ) The best i can do to give advice, is to google something like "pathfinder wizards handbook", which will usually direct you to comprehensive guides to the class mentioned(wizard), and all the feats, skills and spells that are recommended for it. Some of the options arent avaliable, but those that are, are usually a good idea to consider.
I play a chaotic Evil Sorcerer, from the Dragon blood line "Red" giving bonus damages to all fire spells i toss, by choosing spell specialization on an early level together with Focus, my Scorching hands deal 3d4+3 at lvl 1, you can do this to most of the Sorcerer bloodlines, when you get fireball or scorching ray just change the specialization to those giving you 2 beams earlier with scorching ray at lvl 7, and +2d6 extra fireball damage at lvl 5 to a total of 8d6+8 at lvl 6 which is insane. Ray of enfeeblement is actually so underrated its silly, it drains your target for 1d6+1 strength per lvl, making meleers pretty much useless against you if they have not got Weapon finesse, and perk to deal damage thru dexterity. A good way is to put your points into Dex and Charisma so your touch attacks hit more often, and you get extra AC to boot.
Web is the strongest spell on the first levels after you get it. Just catch your enemies and shoot them. When someone escapes the web, he is usually alone and thus easy to kill by melee characters. No other buff or spell needed most of the times.
There's a good list of comprehensive pathfinder guides that you can use to pick spells, though bare in mind while doing so that some of those spells won't be in the game.
Isnt the consensus that caster are incredibly strong and the martial classes are almost garbage in comparison? I'm surprised that somebody would even consider them to be weak.
Magic users have alot of utility outside of combat in tabletop and almost none in video games. There are multiple problems going on here just to name a few. 1. This is most peoples first experience with Pathfinder so they don't know the rules. 2. The difficulty of the game is spiky as hell you either crush everything or get crushed *depending on your settings*. 3. Placing spell aoes is kind of a pain in the ass in the game where as in table top you can handwave it more.
There is a huge problem because of the way the game works, everyone moves at the same time so going first and doing a spell before the enemies can move isn't possible. Losing a shitton of utility spells which were cut, all saving throws are rediculessly buffed in this game so you are almost exclusive reliant on buff spells which is fine but not what most people expect from a wizard or sorcerer.
I tried playing a sorcerer or something in Baldur's Gate and it was a terrible idea. He kept dying. So I played a Monk in Neverwinter Nights with a Cleric as companion and I had almost no problems. Casters require micromanagement, mostly do buffs and are squishy, while the martial classes are just reliable enough not to babysit.
@@robinheinemann1740 A lot of encounters can begin with a surprise round, if you see the enemies on the edge of your screen you can assign an action to each party member before combat starts, so long as you have everyone act at the same time.
Lets face it, when people think about powerful magic in D&D style game they think about BG2. No game since replicated the feeling of walking into a room, casting time stop and killing all non-boss enemies during it and if BG3 is using 5E it won't either.
People think casters are WEAK? I could never beat this game without my transmutation and enchantment spells. Displacement, Haste, Slow, Delay Poison, Protection from Energy, attribute boosters, Alchemist bombs, the list goes on and on. Never ever underestimate a heightened Hold Person or Hideous Laughter. A single Hideous Laughter spell rendered the troll king encounter completely trivial for me (Challenging mode). Also shoutouts to the hilarious combo of Stinking Cloud and Delay Poison Communal. Edit: Your videos are very good at illustrating how to approach this game through the Pathfinder ruleset. Neglecting entire schools of magic just because they don't deal direct damage (something I did in Baldurs Gate 2 a lot) is really detrimental. I've yet to fail an encounter if I get to buff up with all my defensive spells beforehand (barring an insanely unlucky crit that oneshots one of my tanks).
What you said is right but at the same time we got the opposite problem of what you did in Baldurs Gate. Every spell that does deal damage can be (and should) be neglected right now. The buffs and Control casts are great but the actual damage spells arent. Look at your list. 1 Damage spell and those probably because you are talking about the trolls were you need acid damage to kill them. People imagine a caster as someone who kills his enemys but that is not the case right now. It is just plain better to chain buffs or control effects and let the non casters do all the damage.
This is a problem with the game I think, this game is very bad at communicating the core Pathfinder ruleset. The basic rules are never really explained properly, that being AC, attack rolls, actions/turns/rounds, armor vs touch, AoO and so forth. You also have no idea your 3 points you pumped into Charisma on your fighter because you wanted him to be able to handle encounters "diplomatically" is completely and utterly useless because your Bard companion outshines you. I digress. It is like you say, a problem of approach. People think a caster is this wizard with burning eyes and a mean stance hurling fireballs and lightning bolts. Sure you can do that but you'll kill your Barb and Cleric in the process. They should really make that gnome in the beginning use enchantments spells to show the player how powerful they can be. It would also make him an interesting boss fight later on. Edit: I disagree the strong Evocation spells should be rejected, they do have their uses, mostly as battle initiators in my case. You have to be clever in your usage, but if you take the time and plan around them they can be very effective. I rarely ever use them outside of touch spells on my Magus but still, sometimes a well-aimed Fireball is just what the doctor ordered.
Who the fuck ever said casters are weak? Empowered maximized fireball would disagree with any arguments they might have. You just need to optimize for it a bit. Draconic sorcerer with evocation spell focus and lesser maximize metamagic rod (is 14.000 gp, can be found at vendors at random) at 6th level can nuke a 20ft rds aoe for: 6d6 (maximized) + 6 (from draconic bloodline. 1 dmg per die rolled) = 42 flat damage. THAT'S AT 6TH LEVEL... Now, imagine you're at 15th level get 2 metamagic feats: Intensified+empowered. Get Maximize metamagic rod (normal one). A 15th level sorcerer can nuke an entire encounter with Empowered Maximized Intensified fireball for: (15d6 (maximized) + 15) x 1.5 (90 + 15) x 1.5 = 157 damage in a 20 ft rds. Now, you do use a 6th level spell slot... BUT COME THE FUCK ON. 150+ damage in a 20ft rds...
My problem is I have 3 casters with optimized builds for specific spell types... and they constantly have enemies make saves, it's absolutely infuriating how many spell slots I waste on a daily basis on spells that fail because the enemies save.
Saves are pretty easy, and work similar to stone paper scissors: Evasive/fast stuff has high reflexes, melee brutes have abysmal will saves, when sentient, pure casters have low fortitude, and e.g. clerics have low reflexes. - Casting fortitude spells against melee enemies is generally a recipe for disaster.
know your enemy, if you cast "Finger of Death" on melee, you will fail. Just click on casters and Dominate Person on the meleers. This game was quite intended for the ppl who played a lot on PnP version. Try to play Baldur's Gate with no experience on D&D. You will fail even harder.
First let me say that I agree with you. However, I remember coming from playing a Warlock in WoW to playing my first party-based rpg. Shout out to DA:O. The idea of OP for me was a totally self sufficient PC. The idea of weak was a carry who needed others to do the damage and take the beating. It's a shift of philosophy that most aren't going to take to right away.
A twohander fighter at lvl 20 with scythes is going to do more damage. At level 20 they get guaranteed crit and increased multiplier so that 4x goes to 5 times. Power attack is increased by strength by 100%. Say you do 50 damage a hit they goes to 400 damage to all nearby enemies with great cleave. They are stupidly overpowered, but only if you get to lvl 20.
It doesn't. Pathfinder's tabletop still has overpowered casters. The only reason people say casters are underwhelming in this game is because a lot of the utility spells from the tabletop have not been ported over. Spells like charm person, fly, suggestion, and teleport. This basically turns casters into buff/debuff support characters, rather than the playmakers they are in the tabletop.
To me its always been about balancing a party. You need the warrior classes to deal with the random mooks. Imagine a 6 man wizard gang, fighting a swarm of kobolds.
I know this is a bit old at this point, but I have to say. I think the issue is a lot of ppl playing this are coming from mmorpgs or arpgs and not from actual table top. In most of the other pc rpgs you're focusing so much on damage that other stats and affects don't matter much, it's just how much damage per second you can put out. When you're playing table top, you walk in to a dark room, and 5-10 enemies come out from your flanks, it becomes immediately apparent how good dropping 3 of them in a magical pit, or fearing a few away can be. Also, when you're actually rolling the dice to save from being poisoned or feared, you'd be amazed how much you want that +2 to saving throws lmao.
I guess the 1 thing that can make casters feel "weak" us the spell limit. At low levels when you only have a couple uses of a spell it can make the character feel gimped
Really the problem with this game is that if you aren't already a very experienced crpg or pathfinder player there is literally no way to know which spells are good, which aren't and which school to pick for what. I read that some schools don't even have lvl9 spells which you can't even know unless you get to that level in the game and find out. Maybe in a few months or years when all the holes are filled in the experience will be better than it is currently.
Exactly this. There's no useful guide in the game and the encyclopedia SUCKS. Tooltip wordings are not exactly clear either. I had to spend hours learning the basics of the tabletop game whilst also watching loads of example builds and reading tons of forum posts to understand some of the stuff in this game.
Quite true. I find it is better for Arcane casters to do crowd control rather than single-target damage, but it depends. Of course, once you run out of spells, you are extremely weak in comparison, but then again you can give them a few levels of another compatible class to make them solid even when out of spells or use archetypes that often do that. Nuance: casters lose access to high level spells if they multi-class, so not always a good idea (trick is to browse the highest spells you can ever get and see if you feel they can be sacrificed for a nifty multi-class).
Heroism is a GREAT spell. I always try to get it on at least 2 characters. Not sure if you mentioned it at the end, BUT don't forget ability BUFFS can help out in other ways. I have come across more than one vid showing the dangers of disease and poison in this game. Many baddies lower your stats this way, and buffs can both aid in prevention (increase in your Armor class as well as saving throws) as well as keeping what could be a crippling debuff to a stat from getting out of hand. I had a different run where my wizard Octavia's strength was so debuffed, she was like at 2 or 3. Had to unequip some of her items as well as switch her stat bonus from Dex to Strength just to get her back into a "decent" strength range. I think the devs have made sure many of the spells have some use in game, whereas there are a ton of spells NO ONE takes in Neverwinter Nights 2. They are known to be just plain bad.
I remember casters being really OP, especially Arcane ones, in these kind of games. Was a Wizard in all of NWN playthroughs and Icewind dale; so i tried to avoid using one as long as possible. finally settled on just getting a caster for CC instead of raw firepower and in my second playthrough im gonna avoid having any arcane users; fully martial force!
Teamwork, as mentioned here, is really the key. You can really make your encounters much easier if you take this by heart without doing any fancy micromange stuff. Haste & Slow are 3rd level spells, which really helps you frontliners to dish out damage and having to recieve less damage in return and thus are quite helpful in any encounter - one of my most favourite spells since BG 1 ;) If you up against spiders, poisonous Hydras those long term communal spells offering you resistances or making your party outright immune to the effects are just fantastic. So Delay poison communal makes your whole party immune to poison for one hour, usually enough to clear a dungeon level. Same goes for those comunal resistance spell which let you decide what you party should be resistant to for one hour reducing any damage by that source by a flat percentage before making any saves. It really makes those will-o-whips lightning bolts or goblin alchemists but a triffle.
Arcane Casters are Weak is the problem there at Best Glass Cannons. Glass Cannons are Weak, They just happen to fucken blow shit up at the same time. Edit : Give a Bonus Example for Pathfinder KM, The Enemies in this game all have inflated Spell REsistance / Saving throws and such, So unless we are talking about Easy Diff or such, Your spellcaster is just more often then not be able to over-come saves / penertration and not effect ppl via offencily Buffs R the way to go
I might be able to do something like that. :) There are a number of ways to build it but overall it's kind of a mediocre class. However, it is very cool and is definitely fine on Normal-Challenging difficulty with proper support, like most martial classes.
As a person who is a second edition dungeon master and has been playing Dungeons & Dragons since the early 80s I think what people don't understand is Dungeons & Dragons has never been about balance. At higher levels casters are more powerful than most any other class and that's has always been okay. With casters you are pretty much weak as hell up until Level 5 then you start getting stronger. What I have always loved about them since dragons is the fact that if you know the rules well enough and you really put together a strong character then you have the potential to be more powerful than anybody else. That's why I play 2nd edition I don't want something that makes it where everything is always balanced. I want to be rewarded for forethought and careful planning of my character build. But then again I'm old school maybe things have changed but I can promise you if everyone becomes equal in Dungeons & Dragons it will just be watered down to rock paper scissor and that won't be fun at all. I tell my new players right out the gate that casters become the most powerful characters in the game but they also require the most planning and knowledge of the game to be used effectively. I think part of the problem is people are more focused on how powerful their characters are rather than just having a good time everyone will get their time to shine and be a hero with a good DM at the helm. Sure a wizard is your break glass in case of emergency character but that doesn't mean he'll be great in every situation I guarantee you that fighter and Paladin will get their time to shine.
Every game has balance no matter how little you think it matters. If it had no balance you could prick your finger on a nail entering a tavern in the opening moments of an adventure and then die of an infection 2 days later. Balance is the idea of fair play. If a game isn't fair in at least some regard nobody would play it. Well except masochists.
@@Scottx125Productions I don't think what you're saying is balance. I'm simply saying that Dungeons & Dragons isn't supposed to be like World of Warcraft where every character has a chance to be equally powerful and beat each other in a one-on-one PVP battle. A 20th level fighter should not be as powerful as a 20th level wizard. Like I said though I'm old school and I'm a dungeon master for over 20 years so my perspective might be a little bit different. But the thing that always made Dungeons & Dragons great was the fact that you knew things could stack and if you planned everything out right you could create a character that could be more powerful than a lot of other people in your party but it took extensive knowledge of the game. It seems nowadays people don't want to study as hard and Dungeons & Dragons has been watered down and made very simple and everybody just wants to be powerful. This is why so many people are going back to the editions 3.5 and below because there is much less balancing. I don't play 5th edition so in the end it won't make a difference to me anyway. But I really think this new generation of Dungeons and Dragons players really doesn't understand what Dungeons & Dragons is supposed to be. It's not just pick a character and become super powerful as you level up. It's Pick a Class and then think about what you want to be at level 20 or you might end up designing a brick.
The amount of fights in the game and the Limit to resting because of quest timers all around make them useless nontheless. They are emptied so damn quickly.
Spell casters can be built to do loads of damage, be support. Or just be a wizard with so many spells you can do everything. In my game I'm running 2 melee, 2 mages (1 sorc dps 1 arcane trickster support/dps), 1 bard and 1 Mystic Theurge (support/healer). Though I have to admit at the start of the game casters do seem weak, they don't do great damage and the only thing going for them is their supportive spells and aoe. Though once you start to unlock the heavy hitting spells at level 6 they really start to shine.
KM is based off of more traditional Pathfinder Rules and yeah, Mages are pretty terrible/weak low level, but once they get up there in level they can pretty much destroy everything with a well placed fireball or disintegration ray. It's kinda a tradition in old school styled PnP RPGs like D&D and Pathfinder. The whole Mages being powerful from the start is very much a modern videogameish trope.
@@vileone13 Yeah. I prefer the idea of mages being essentially godlike but slow to ramp up. It's the idea of a mage needs to learn to use their spells and slowly grow to learn more powerful spells, as well as learn to handle weaker spells so they can eventually cast stronger versions of said spells. Rather than just being immediately the best at whatever spell you get.
I'm in the last dungeon as of now and there you'r party is kinda torn away from you and you need to find your friends. I have found Almost all of them and now i don't have a bard in party and this is heartbroken time for me. Linzi powered up so much my band of missfits so i thinking about generating a new bard. Maybe it will save me from constant Gaze paralyze. Seriously, i want to cry for how i miss my little bard :(
Arcane casters are good even at 1st level. Ever tried grease? You just throw that on the enemies and theyll be face hugging the ground for half the fight
I would say as it is mages are pretty weak. Their spells fall into three cathegories - damage, buffs and debuffs. 1. Damage - unreliable, most opponent have insane bonuses to reflex saves, so fireballs and everything reflex based deals 50% damage. Also as soon as the fight starts your characters mix, so there's only the fog of war fireball reliable option. 2. Buffs - very reliable, extremely powerful. 3. Debuffs - same problem as with damage - most opponents, especially the problematic ones, have enough save bonus on everything to just discard your debuffs, because they never land. Even if you spec in certain schools, there's nothing you can do about opponents, that have +19 will save when you're barely level 10. As it currently stands the best way would be rolling a paladin, adding Valerie, Amiri, Harrim, Linzi and Octavia to the mix. That way you're covered from all sides, have a strong first line (so no opponents get to your squishies), one source of arcane damage (Octavia), four sources of buffs (Harrim, your character, Linzi and Octavia) and an insane ammount of damage. That 10d6 from a firebal is literally nothing compared to a hasted paladin with all the buffs in the world charging at someone with smite evil on. I have around +30 to hit on level 10, 16-20 crit range and three attacks per round. Story wise you get a melee character (useful in those pesky solo moments) with high charisma and persuasion. Paladins... they'll just never stop being OP :).
I really agree with this. Yes casters are great buffers, no real question there, but their chance to hit on spells is awful, especially on higher difficulties when the AI gets tremendous save buffs. The worst type of CC, is unreliable CC because it breaks your tactics starting the fight if it fails. Also, unlike the alchemist their stronger AOE attacks that are generally more helpful also hit teammates.
baleful polymorph on octavia specced as transmuter. polymorphed the gnomes in pitax and the party oneshotted others. btw you totaly forgot SUMMONS. My clerics just go with buffs + summons. Huge or Elder Elementals + animate dead and you have at least +6 companions on every fights.
Oh yeah, summons are quite funny. I can't seem to buff them though. I used them against Armag, just gave him too much meat to grind through to get to my team, then tanked him with Amiri with all the damage reduction I could get (Valerie got torn to shreds), landed Sunder Armor and destroyed him in a two rounds (Nok Nok pwnz). I always take summon spells on most levels though just to be on the safe side. The level 6 or 7 cleric undead summon seems at least OK. I mean he can take way more punishment than anybody else including shrinked Nok Nok with like 45AC.
the best summons are the animate dead (6 skeletons with low hp but do a lot of damage even high level) and then the last 3 elemental summons, the others are quite crap. for the buffs...i don't buff them, just let them goin for the "meat shield" lol. Consider with 2 clerics you have on field: 12 Skeletons + 2 Huge/Elder Elemental (if noone else can summon obv.) everyone is buffed by linzi with performance and hasted on 1° turn by octavia, place some aura of clerics and everything will pop off. BTW Valerie is my main tank, stalwart defender with all the best armor and shields..all the feats on extra DR and she wins. Amiri is like "useless" for tanking untill very high level, at least for me.
My main is a sorcerer and very powerful. Of course, I have played Pathfinder for years and understand how to properly use and level them. I have a good round of spells, direct damage, defense, and even some summoning spells for emergencies. Linzi is great at using haste and bardic performance. Octavia I use for enlarge person and magic missile, also gave her a summoning spell. So my casters are my primary force, and Amiri and Valerie are front line to keep enemies from getting to them.
25:39 No! Don't fudge the numbers. Average roll on 7d6 is 24,5. Assuming reflex saves that is 12,25. Versus four targets that's 49 damage, not 60. 26:42 "Mopped up most of the enemy party" That's another rash statement. If you assume the enemy makes their reflex saves as in the previous example you hit each enemy for 12+ damage. That's only "mopping up" if the enemies already were very seriously wounded. In that circumstance I'd take 50 damage focused on a single enemy instead practically every time.
It's probably because people have never played the Tabletop game, I personally do play a lot of tabletop and I tend to create Utility characters rather than Damage and I can easily say that I tend to solve most boss battles and difficult encounters by having a trick up my sleeve to either boost the party, debuff the enemy or change the environment, everyone knows my characters are practically worthless in the regular encounters but that they will save everybody's skin as soon as a difficult encounter starts. And though this computer doesn't grant me the power that I would have at the actual table since I can't get creative with my illusions and whatnot, the Casters are still pretty strong, so I always make sure to bring at least 3 casters with me.
Caster hate in Pathfinder ia a littlw baffling to me. It's even crazier in the pen and paper version where yoy have access to utility spells that can swquence break a linear story line.
I like my wizard to be built around killing a lot of squish cannon fodder mobs. With big aoe spells. With some CC spells for bigger tougher targets. Having my rogue more for anti big. Bard and clerics are great for buffing the shit out of your party. All that +hit and +damage from bard. With clerics being great at buffing defense. All caster are great at debuffing enemies. Fighter more of a front line meat shield. Honestly people are just looking at the end numbers. Where a rogue can instant kill someone. Not the way the game is supposed to be played as.
Summoning is the other thing that gets nuts fast. When you can put another character on the field that’s half as good as your fighters… then another, then another…
Casters are great, but they buffed encounter DC rolls rather than properly increasing encounter difficulty which severely weakens casters and forces super specialization (GSF++) to just stand a small chance.
I've made a sylvan sorcerer with a pet leopard (upgrades early at lv4) and its fantastic. Basically a free tank that will rez during a rest if it dies. And by the time it becomes weak you have high level spells anyway
A video on how well built the pre-fab characters are could be interesting. A few of them (Octavia especially, but also Linzi and Reg) are built on a pretty solid foundation, and a few more are imperfect but usable (Harrim, because all clerics are superb), and in ways that are fairly straightforward -- but it'd be nice to have some tips on maximizing the characters who are neither obviously good nor obviously bad.
You would need to rest for 8 hours. However, managing spells and their use is similar to other game's systems of managing mana, it's just that the spells are a lot more impactful rather than something to be spammed. :)
@@maltimoto this is where scrolls, potions, and wands come into play, whether you used them before or after you used your normal spells from your spell pool
Casters are not weak, I'm currently attempting a "solo run" where my Main character is the only character, And the main trope of this character is the fact that he's abusing the scroll savant archetype and multiclassing with Paladin. The fact that I can Solo run this game on the premise that I'm essentially a caster of any class due to scrolls is the only reason I've made it about halfway into the second act.
5:20 - Not sure what the discussion surrounding Valerie is about, but she is 100% the strongest story companion and one of the few that is outright better than a player-built merc. Her stat total is very high (even if you consider the odd-numbered ones to be 1 point lower, she has around 30 points in stats, and that's before accounting for her quest bonuses) and those stats are well distributed. You also get her at lvl 1, and even though her first level is kinda wasted, it's still a max BAB class with a ton of free feats and there are no downsides to it (like useless domains). The reason you might find her underwhelming is because you kept giving her fighter levels. She should be a bard (+RDD, ofc), maybe a scion. Anyway, only divine casters are bad. Res/restore is dirt cheap, but priests are still useful because of the party wide poison immunity, which should be cast 24/7 so you can walk around in stinking cloud. Honestly, that and a couple of immunities/protections for specific opponents are the only good thing about priests. Arcane casters already have the most important buffs, and don't get me started on damage/cc spells. Arcane casters are completely broken. With a few exceptions, any build for any role you can think of can be improved by replacing some/most/all of the levels with an arcane casting class: -Melee DPS? - Rogues, rangers and barbs are completely inferior to a vivisectionist or a sword saint. -Tank? - You can't get enough AC with full plate + shield on higher difficulties, you need dodge stacking. Monks can do that, but they don't have concealment and mirror image. So, it's bard, scion or sorc with a monk/paladin dip. -Support caster? - As explained before, priests are trash, use alchemists instead. -Ranged DPS? - Bows are garbage compared to ray attacks and spells, so arcane trickster or pure sorc will always out-DPS any fighter, ranger or whatever rogue mix you can think of, and they can also protect themselves. -CC? - Well, kineticists are overpowered, but sylvan/arcane sorc is just as good. So is a grenadier, at least early in the game. Divine casters don't work because they have the same important CC spells as arcane casters, but their DC is lower. -Skill monkey - Sure, you could make a rogue, but then you are stuck with a rogue in your party, which sucks. Wizards and alchemists will be able to max all the skills you need and leave the lore checks to your bard. tl;dr - divine casters ARE weak, arcane caster are OP.
The problem with giving Val levels in another class is that she already has fighter levels, meaning she's effectively at a negative level adjustment, which also makes her bad Divine casters are great. Druids have an OP animal companion and crazy buffs while Clerics have strong CC (Archon's Aura at 3rd level for example) and Heal is a ridiculously strong spell no other class can replicate. Would definitely not call them weak lol also Paladin is probably the best martial class overall due to crazy high saves and the weapon enchantment
It is odd how I came over your kingmaker videos by searching for them instead of in my sub feed when I subbed to you years ago. I assumed you stopped making videos a long time ago when I got nothing in my sub feed.
My main problem with casters in this game has always been how the strongest debuff/cc spells also affect your frontline. Let's say you use Harrim's Fear in this video and try to hit those 4 Bandits coming at you from the point where he's standing, aren't you going to hit your 3 fighters too? Ofcourse this can be mitigated by positioning Harrim differently, but this has 2 downsides: micromanagement (which some people don't mind), and it puts him in harm's way, and although Harrim (with his strange build) might be pretty tanky for a caster, he is nowhere near as tanky as any of your frontliners, which becomes a problem once you reach the later chapters. The only mass crowd control spells I use are things like Web, Grease and stuff like that, and when it comes to damaging spells, Controlled Fire Ball/Controlled Molten Orb or their uncontrolled counterparts once I finally have access to things like Firebrand. Granted, I never played D&D or Pathfinder before Kingmaker, so a lot of possibilities are definitely lost on me, but for players like me without previous experience, casters are relegated to Buff-/Summonbots, Swarmkillers and the occasional, highly situational AoE CC or Nuke. Which still makes them extremely powerful, it just doesn't play into the traditional pc gaming fantasy of casters raining hellfire upon your enemies. Octavia with her Ray Sneak Attacks and Reggie are a whole different story ofcourse, I started using them on my second playthrough and was surprised how much burst damage they can dish out when properly built.
I think you nailed it on the head though: if you micromanage properly then these spells work. Sure, you can build the ultimate auto-attacking team and that works, but you can also use certain actions and spells like Fear to shut down encounters before they even really begin as long as you position correctly. That's why Pathfinder is so interesting and tactical compared to other CRPGs.
@@darkfireslide Absolutely! Once I got away from the usual "Click on things until they die"-mindset, I started enjoying the game a lot more. And even before that I had more than enough time invested in the game to say that it was worth the pricetag. :) Kingmaker doesn't do a very good job explaining the game mechanics, but that isn't in the least bit surprising, considering how deeply complex the system already is. That's why your channel is an absolute blessing for inexperienced players like me. Currently I'm on my second playthrough and just wanted to experiment a bit with a Wildshaping druid (Defender of the First World because I want to get some revenge for how hard I got wrecked in the later chapters xD) and your video on it helped me a lot, and I am grateful for how in-depth and easy to understand your explanations are.
casters are great for: haste which is one of the better buffs in the game, no matter the level. cleric buffs and protections. protection from energy, communal.. and delay poison, communal make your entire party immune to poison damage for a time and protection from energy gives you a shield that blocks a certain amount of energy damage per level. lesser restoration also cures any ability point damage you might get during adventuring. arcane trickster can bring both magic and sneak attack. a 0 level cantrip called acid splash can still do around 10-15 damage and kill the branded trolls that are immune to fire without having to use alchemist flasks. mages can, of course, bring fireball which is great for AoE and they can copy spells into their spell book for memorizing later. and these are just the basics.. you can do so much with casters in pathfinder its crazy. as for linzi.. i dont really use her as a damage dealer.. she's a great buff character and i think her CC is underrated, particularly when you are going after the stag lord. later on, she's more for buffs and CC is less effective.. but remember that there are many CC spells that still do something even if the enemy saves.
It's because of the low amount of spellslots, not being able to change the spells when leveling. Sure Harim can buff the party but he is useless for the rest of the day. In a game where there is more then one or two encounters per day the spellcasters wont be able to keep up.
The problem I have with casters in this game is, that the combat is real-time. I don't like that I have to cast all the spells manually without time to think about them as I would in a turn-based combat.
Pause, do the spel, a few seconds later it is cast... enemies are not in the area anymore Might be that I am more in line with DnD5e Rule, but the conversion of turn-based into real-time was a bad decision, I think.
Bear in mind that you can actually redirect spell (change its target) mid-cast. Progress of casting won't be lost. Just choose the same spell again and pick a new target/spot, character would just continue casting while retargeting at the same time. Saved me of potential fireball's friendly fire countless times.
Can you recommend a video that gives a guide on making a dex based Magus character? I feel pathfinder makes it very hard to make a decent dex based magus (or any dex based melee), but I also feel I don't understand the game mechanics and I'm missing something. Any advice?
The trick is to get Weapon Finesse, then Weapon Focus with the type of finesse weapon you want to use, then take either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace with the weapon you focused on. Takes 3 feats but then you'll do your Dex as damage instead of Strength. From there, or even after taking Weapon Finesse, get Piranha Strike to trade Attack for Damage.
Bummer that it takes 3 feats to do that but good advice. One of the things I don't like about pathfinder or any d20 game prior to D&D 5e is that making a dex based melee character required using valueable feats. I've always thought dex based fighting should just be an option that didn't require such investments, but c'est la vie.....thanks again.
People just want to do direct damage with casters. They do not understand the concept of teamwork or buff and debuff in this type of game. They are more used to do direct damage only games like shooters etc etc. This is simply not how pathfinder kingmaker works. So people, put the gun down and stir the brain a bit more, damage is not everything and does not have to be direct....I really hope your amazing video will shed some light on the topic for everyone!! Thanks again!!
So, your most prominent and important reason why Casters are strong is because they can buff your fighters. And you even note that some of the buffs become useless when you get better gear. Yeah nuh. Might as well then just replace casters with fighters. Who the fuck would choose to be a mage or a sorc if all you are going to be doing is buffing or debuffing. A healer is more exciting than that.
Wait people complain that Linzy is weak? My dude.... She is a bard, which makes her automatically one of the best characters in the game. It doesn't matter that she isn't minmaxed, the only reason to not bring her along in every party is if you are playing a bard yourself. Currently I'm at level 10 in the game (I've played TT but this is my first run with the CRPG), so with inspire competence, one of her earliest abilities she is giving a +3 to attack rolls, a +3 to damage rolls, and a +3 to saving throws. That is the equivalent of having a +3 weapon and a +3 cloak of resistance, that stacks with your magic weapons and cloaks of resistance.... She can haste, she can slow, she can buff ability scores, she can completely shut down multiple enemy's turn. The only thing she doesn't do well is stand in the frontlines. She wasn't minmaxed when you get her and I didn't min-max her afterwards (I focused on making her passable in the damage department, she's never going to compete with a well or even halfway decently built fighter (although she deals more dpr than Valerie, who I stuck with out of pure laziness but finally replaced before starting the current quest-line with a merc.) but that's because I think it's fun to have a little halfling running around shooting people with a crossbow, not because I think it's the optimal way to build a bard), but even with me NOT building her as the "best bard" she's still the MVP of the party, with only my merc wizard giving her a run for her money. That's including my MC (which is how you actually build a sword and board tank *cough cough* Valerie) and my merc fighter (which is how you actually build a two handed damage dealer *cough cough* Amiri)
Those large AOE CC spells certainly do appear very powerful, but arent you as likely to disable your allies as your enemies. It seems like it would be difficult to use such large spells without essentially rolling the dice to see if you allies or your enemies get hurt more.
I don't understand how people think Linzi is weak. Bardic Inspiration+multiple slots for Grease and Summon Creature is a perfect setup for a god-wizard. Between her and Tristain's infinite buffs, you have a friggin *busted* core. Throw in anyone who gets Web and give Linzi some.of the animal totem buff spells and encounters feel mean spirited on normal difficulty.
3 casters is a must I think. Ideally a good mix..a buffer/summoner ideal. I have an Eldritch rogue n sorc plus cleric as standard. Blur/displace always before big fights.
there is the impossible Hargulka fight that turns easy with a caster spec-ed into hideous laughter; if you don't have that you are forced to give up or lower difficulty all the way to story mode
Regarding your curse spell,, if you cast it on fighter might as well drain his mental stats, since that is their "weak" department, and once the stat reaches 0 we all know what happens ^^
The reason why people think this is because casters do feel weak in terms of their damage output and this is due to most of the mobs/bosses having resistance to the various types of damage. Add to that their squishiess and newb players naturally assume they are weak compared to the melee classes. This is the wrong way to look at it ofc. The caster classes are very powerful when looked at through the lens of the utility they have to offer the party. They make many situations a lot easier and without them, a lot of situatuations are impossible to get past on the harder difficulties. As an example, when facing a swarm mob that not only do damage but have an AOE ability that places the confused condition on everyone within a certain range and where each mob can only attack one player meaning thy hit several of your players, the caster classes are super strong as they can sleep/debuff which allows you to get past the encounter. When I see people in the comment section saying that casters should be super damage powerful and should be nuking mobs within 2 spells, it reminds me of how I used to be, where I am now and how much of a newb I was back then haha. This balance between the casters and melee classes is what makes it such a fun game sa you really have to use your head and think out your strategy/spell choice. Each class brings it's own benefits and cons to the party. A huge part to this game is both understanding the spells/abilities and how they synergize with each other in different situations along with positioning and the build. New players eventually learn and understand all this if they put the effort in but this is a complex game and it takes some time to learn. All this said, when playing on the harder difficulties, the tank/melee classes are easier to play early game and are a lot easier to get past the odd occasion where you are put on your own.
PnP just doesn´t always translate well into digital media, a good DM will always balance encounters around your party/character and if you heed the signs deadly encounters are avoidable. Very few DM´s make traps the character can´t get out of. Usually you have much less combat in PnP which means 1 minute buffs per level get their appropriate use, with constant encounters in a pc game I prefer longer buffs and more spells at lower levels. A 1 minute magical shield is not going to do much in a dungeon which lasts about 30 minutes or more and provides constant challenges. Casters just don´t have the same sustainability in PC gaming as they do in PnP, they begin to shine as their spells gain power and meta magic starts shining. In PnP a high level wizard is almost godlike. I think it´s the beginning which is annoying, few tools until your gain a few levels .. and the ones you have are very limited, and if you spec him wrong ... well ... then it will really hurt your character.
Probably people look at damage done directly and if it's less than a fighter's sword then it's bad. Like in football, you can be a player that does a lot of things really well, but if you don't score goals the fans will dismiss you as mediocre.
Casters are fine, I would never run without. That said, the campaign at times, can be really punishing when it comes to time management. For a second or third playthrough, that doesn't matter much, because you kind of know what to expect. But if you have to do challenging missions with no option to rest up, I can see where they come from.
Basically, Casters in KMaker is similar to Casters in Starcraft2. Fear/Sleep = Protoss Forcefield, Blindness = Zerg Blinding Cloud, Haste = Terran Stimpack, Protection from Energy = Protoss Guardian Shield, and Fireball = Protoss PsiStorm.
I've played SO many RPGs over the years and one thing Casters ARE NOT WEAK! Trust me every game from Bard's Tale to Baldur's Gate and now this game. Your right about this!
Honestly, I've been playing casters from the start I've played Pathfinder Kingmaker and honestly, the class itself even seems a little bit OP in this game to me. :)
People complain about arcane casters because they're so easy to one shot in early game. Even after you've gained a few levels, a caster can easily be focused down by a few enemy archers. Since the melee classes in this game doesn't have any way to aggro enemies, you have to make sure your arcane caster is buffed with mage armor, shield, and mirror image so they have some survivability. Divine casters on the other hand, are just good throughout. They're not great at any one thing but they're good at pretty much everything. They can wear armor and use shields so they can take some hits, they can fight OK, they can heal, they can buff, they can crowd control, they can do aoe damage, etc. Druids especially are very powerful.
They're fun but they also make fights against casters very predictable. You just go through the same process every time of having your casters unload on enemy casters with dispel, breach, pierce magic, etc. to take down all their defenses and then have your fighters will finish them off in a few hits.
True, but i prefer that + the "caster duels" vs this game. Charge caster -> splat. At least thats the case 90% of the time, and its true for the enemy and your casters too. Spell and physical protection spells only buy them a turn or two.
You dont get sound burst " Right out of the gate" I'm REALLLLYYYYY struggling to make harrim this amazing cleric you keep talking about here. I barely made it to 2nd level with this group. The combat in this game is mind numbingly sluggish. I'm playing it on NORMAL, lol.
People saying that casters are weak comes from a couple of very specific sources: the -4 shooting into combat penalty and not understanding how tanking works. For example, take a sorcerer as your main character, and don't take Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Now try to use that character to do damage. It just doesn't work, and the game is almost completely opaque as to why. Next, if you don't have a strong grasp of how tanking works in the game - for example, using Valerie with her tower shield fighting defensively - the enemies will run right past your tanks and kill your casters with impunity while they fire ineffective spells.
The game exacerbates this problem in a couple of ways. First, it gives you default characters that take relatively deep knowledge of the system to make them effective in their default roles (Valerie, Harrim). Second, it does a very poor job of explaining why things aren't working. Without the logs, most people would have no idea ... and the logs aren't highlighted in the tutorial. How are people supposed to know that ranged-touch and ray-based sorcerers need high Dexterity and two feats in order to be minimally functional? The game plays up Sorcerers as straight combat spellcasters, but without the right specific builds they are helpless.
And that's why people think casters are weak.
Yeah, I have to admit the game is pretty poor at telling people what's what if they've no experience of the table top. I had to put aside hours of reading and watching online to figure some of this stuff out.
Actually, Val and Harrim are quite the "dynamic frontline duo", with Shieldwall. One tank is most often not enough to stop the enemy rushing the casters; and Harrim as archetypical dwarven melee cleric has little to do with his feats than to buff his defenses anyways. Just do neither expect him to work as your main tank, nor him excel in offensive spell slinging, in comparison to the full-caster Ecclesitheurge. But he provides very solid frontline buffs, and can effectively fill two party slots as once.
All that does is put your healer on the front line to die - +2 AC is not enough to make up for Harrim's lack of defense. Neither of them can hit well, and in Pathfinder it's the threat of attacks of opportunity that make enemies "stick" to the tank (or die). If your tank can't hit, then they can't do their job.
@@aetius9 actually his main healer which he said was the Ecclesitheurge. The cleric would be secondary heals/tank. Read the post again if you don't understand...
@Aetius: Nope. Harrim in full plate/heavy shield can easily go over sufficient-not-great 30 AC with buffs and all these free feats; and the job of a tank is exactly not damage. AoOs have quite little to do with the AI`s target preferences, at least if you can successfully put up a road block with several characters. It is rather the other way around: You get flanking bonuses for your (squishy) damage dealers, like Amiri or Jaethal, even if distractive Harrim himself does not exactly represent a threat. ;) - If Harrim dies, then mostly for him having huge will and forti saves, but non-existent reflexes. :P Finally: Reducing a cleric to a healer function does no good. If you really want your cleric, who is professional at staying alive, to cowardly hide away from the front and center, where he belongs , and where he largely contributes to the team`s efforts, go with that sad choice Tristian. ;)
I think the video shows pretty well what people are actually complaining about: How weak damaging spells are. And think they have a point. You are completly right casters overall are super strong and all of those buffs/debuffs are key in winning the fight. But once you look at the actual damage potential of those casters it gets sad very fast. Look at the inflict critical wounds for example. 4d8+level. So what was your level 8? 12-40? That means he deals on average less damage than your amari with a single hit and that is the highest spell he can cast for you atm. Every spell that is even worth considering deals damage to your own guys too so you got to do alot of micro management. I just feel like it isnt worth to pick any damage spells and considering what you picked for this video you kinda agreed. Go for heal/utility and use martial classes to deal damage. Plus as you said those characters arent optimized and optimized fighter types deal more damage with each hit while casters just can cast more often with the same damage (some tiny exceptions like favorite spell thingy). So I would even say that casters get worse the better your characters get. I am at level 13 now and I pretty much just use one divine caster to keep my guys alive and 1 arcane to buff them (the magus orc guy) aswell as the bard as like a semi caster for buffs. I even created one of those mercenarys to test out the damage potential and picked everything that made his spells damage better but he just felt wasted. Better to use another martial class.
That is the reason why some people arent happy. They imagined a caster as a destruction machine not as a buff machine.
in Tabletop Pathfinder the main advantage of Damage spells is they generally hit EASIER if not AUTOMATICALLY, so it makes a Modicum of sense why their raw damage is lower. Fireball for Instance ALWAYS HITS, but it has splash damage and a reflex save, Magic Missile ALWAYS HITS, so you need say Shield or something to counteract it. Scorching Ray is a Ranged Touch attack as is Acid Arrow, essentially it goes around armor and you have to dodge it. The lower damage is a balacing act. You don't always HIT with a Sword strike or Arrow strike, but spells ALWAYS hit or at least much more easily. I just think personally alot of people who just play videogames but not nessacarily PF or D&D or other PnP RPGS. Also spells like MM are much more versatile in Tabletop since you can divert some of those missiles to multiple opponents. D&D/PF follow a very general principle that casters at least early on are kind terrible, but once they get around level 5 or 6 they start becoming amazing in terms of buffs/debuffs and magical damage. They are also more easily able to deal different elemental types of damage, say corrosive or fire damage to deal with pesky trolls or aoe damage to deal with swarms, that other non-caster classes may have more trouble with/more workarounds for. Though personally I think it's a matter of a opinion.
Casters out damage martial by a TON around 10th level, pending build.
I believe we need to think spells according to their levels and I don't believe damaging spells are weak. My main is sage sorcerer(not sure if it is good or bad choice) focused into evocation. I did not played PnP Pathfinder but made quite research after I started to play Kingmaker for several hours. After realizing I need high DC to become effective, I got evocation focus, greater focus, elemental focus, spell penetration, spell focus, high ability stat, items like fire amulet etc. For example with quicken(with rods or feat) I can cast 2 chain lighting(although not effected by elemantal focus) in one turn and if enemies are warrior heavy, hardly somebody will save. So lets say 5 warriors and nobody saved, 50-60 damage each*2 is 500 damage right of the bat. This not weak :) Also fireball, since it is low level spell you can heighten, empower etc but even without anything I one shot nearly all goblins and their threat is their crowded numbers and sneak attacks. Also fire snake as directional AoE. For single target hell fire ray is capable of dealing serious amount of damage like 200-300 and since it is fire+unholy, it bypasses resistances. And finally there are OP spells, imho, like disintegrate and prismatic spray that can one shot anybody.
Also it changes with perspective too. You give example of critical wound 4d8+level. I look at it as reverse heal because in my opinion it is defensive spell then offensive spell just like cure wounds. Actually both are same just one is positive energy and other is negative. For players who like Jaethal or summon undead that is skill and its mass versions are quite important.
I am not trying to explain every spell but what I was trying to tell is spells are situational, in correct situation or used correctly they are devastating. You can kill 3 greater owlbears in hunting grounds without hitting a single melee attack or you can make Irrovati bow to Linzi with one spell :D that was my favorite moment so far :D
i personally wouldnt be using inflict X wounds to deal damage. i'd be using my cleric as a summoner and buff/healer. IMO, channeling is really good and a critical part of the game once you get to kingdom management (so you arent spending as much money on potions/scrolls).
as for damage dealers.. IMO, a sorcerer is the best for that as they get more spells per day than a wizard and dont have to worry about memorizing. and once you start getting 4th level spells, sorcerers can start to cast quite a few spells per day, particularly if you have over a 20 charisma which isnt hard to do. also, once you get to 5th level sells, you can start putting up maximize metamagic feats and changing things up that way. depending on how you build your sorcerer, you can really increase the damage at higher levels. doing things like a quicken fireball combined with a maximized metamagic rod fireball in the same round can really increase the damage quickly. in this example, you could potentially do 120 damage in one round with those fireball spells.. and you are guaranteed to do at least 70 damage. at even higher levels you can cast 2 hellfire rays in a round..EACH RAY (total of 3 PER spell cast.. so 6 all together) does 15d6 points of damage.. thats a minimum of 105 points of damage in one round to a max of 180... PER RAY.
arcane trickster is also good because it combines martial with magic.. they can buff your party and debuff enemies like any other wizard and deal out a decent amount of damage at the same time. even 0 level cantrips, which are free to cast (no need to rest to renew) can deal out 15 to 20 damage on a regular basis because of sneak attack. the cantrips also count as a magic spell which work great for killing trolls and other monsters where that is an issue. on top of this, you can cast scorching ray and include sneak attack damage. this means, when you reach level 11, you can cast 3 rays in an attack, each doing 4d6 points of damage, plus sneak attack damage. and this is before any metamagic feats. also, at higher levels, arcane tricksters can get feats that add sneak attack damage to ANY damage spell. that means even magic missile will do sneak attack damage. you add sneak attack to hellfire ray, metamagic rods and feats.. and it can get crazy pretty quickly.
these are just a couple of ways you can get good damage output from casters.
in the end, casters have the potential to do the most damage, but they arent the easiest builds to work with. and its true that not every caster is going to be a high damage dealer. and you have to plan ahead. you also have to rely on resting, which in video gaming is a hassle.
so it all depends on how you want to play.
I agree a caster should be doing at least 3-4 times the damage of a basic fighter with a melee weapon. Mages in dnd are on another level to the tens of thousands standard town guards they are in every city.
I really like your pathfinder videos, thanks for letting me go from playing on easy to challenging :)
This is a very important video for anybody having trouble with PKM to watch if they do not already understand the truth of the message contianed in it. There is a reason for the old D&D adage: go for the guy in the dress first. That reason is if you don't he will ruin youy day PDQ. But the single most important lesson from this video, which is entirely correct IMHO, is that you do not need to min-max charcters or use only mercs or find the "best weapons" in the game to succeed. You just need to understand the mathematics of magic in D&D games and the power of teamwork. What the hell does it matter if your fighter is doing 12-26 dmg per hit instead of 14-30 if her target is rolling round the floor laughing, fleeing for their lives or simply stunned?
I think that your points are spot on about casters not being weak. Their buffs/debuffs/support spells are awesomely powerful, once you really start to think about it.
I think that the problem is that casters "feel" weak the way they are presented in this game. When I first made a character, the first thing I made was a sorcerer and I expected to be shooting fireballs and blowing stuff up. However, if I want to actually be effective in my party as a sorcerer in this game, what I do more than anything is cast buffs on my party members, and then sit back and pretty much do nothing for most fights. Because of the rest system, if I don't want to waste time resting all the time, the most efficient thing to do is buff my party and watch my martial classes mop everything up because that is how you get the most bang for your buck out of your resources.
Honestly, I think the core of the problem is that this is a PnP adaptation, instead of a system created specifically for video games. For example, as a sorcerer in a game like Divinity 2 or Pillars of Eternity 2, you can feel awesome as a magic caster because you can use all of your powerful spells every fight, and feel like you've made a visceral impact every fight. In pathfinder you get the "oh I am so cool, I blew them all up with a fireball" feeling 1/10 fights, maybe. Or if you are like me, you just never use it because you are holding it for the next big fight that might be around the corner. This problem is further compounded by the fact the game specifically has game mechanics that punish you for resting often because so many of the story elements and other systems like the barony system are linked to time passing in game. As a result, the most optimal way to play the game becomes to eschew using anything other than buffs with long durations because that is what allows you to move from fight to fight quickly without spending resources.
As a result, casters tend to "feel weak" in this game because most of the time in combat, they aren't doing anything other than plinking away with a crossbow or something. Additionally, in this game, they don't have as much utility outside of combat as they do in PnP, further compounding the problem. Using your own example, haste does 40-60 damage every turn with the extra attack alone, at the minimum, and has a whole bunch of additional utility, including defense and accuracy so why would you ever cast fireball instead? They are in the same spell level, and yet one is just vastly superior in almost every way. But the problem is, haste isn't exciting or sexy. "I made all of my teammates better in incremental ways, that, in aggregate, made the fight trivial" is not nearly as cool as "I MELTED ALL THOSE SUCKERS WITH A FIREBALL!!!" or what have you, you know? The latter would probably grow tiresome in a team based PnP experience, but in my single player video game, why the hell not be able to just blow shit to smithereens with my big stupid fireballs, you know? As a result, when I play this game as a magic user, instead of feeling like a big powerful wizard, I pretty much feel like an accountant, or a quarterback that just hands the ball off to a star running back all game and never gets to do much on his own.
That's Just my two cents as to why "the community" is reacting the way that it is about it. Thanks for the video!
You don't cast fireball instead you cast both. Or have someone else cast haste. The need to rest is no different than in the tabletop. Magic has always been about resource management. How much of a problem this is in tabletop depends on how often your dm let's you rest. This game let's you rest as much as you want. You simply have to consider your deadlines.
Mann sama. That is what he said. This spellsystem is made for tabletop not a pc RPG.
@@natanoj16
And my point was that it works just as it works in the tabletop games. The problems he has exist all the same in a by the rules tabletop game.
@@mannsama7084 yes and that is the entire point of the post. He doesn't think that is a good way to tackle it in a pc game.
@@natanoj16
And I am saying that doesn't math. His complaint with the spells per day system is equally applicable to the tabletop. His issue is with spell per day itself and not it's adaptation to the computer. It is a fine complaint as I have some of my own. But if he didn't experience these problems playing the tabletop, then his dm was very generous with giving long rests and providing no cost for doing so.
Only issue I have with magic, is all of my favorite spells are largely missing. And these spells are not even obscure. They are very iconic spells.
I was frustrated about this as well, but later saw it as opportunity to try out unusual spells. Some of them I even liked. But, let's be honest, buffmongers are best in this game.
i can't imagine having an adventuring party without an arcane and a divine caster.
the pen and paper Guides, especially treantmonks one, really changed my idea of the arcane casters. they are not here to destroy the enemy. the fighter does that all day much better. they are here to provide all the things that other classes cannot. fly, protect, buff, entangle, grease, enlarge, AOE, Debuff, enchant, illusion.
Then why would anyone play a mage type character in the pnp? Pathfinder casters sound like equipment with maintenance. FFS even in the video the guy says he can start to replace caster spells with equipment. Pathfinder sounds like an extremely dull RPG system. No wonder it is so niche. It caters to players wanting to kill things with a sword.
Thats not true, casters can deal great amounts of damage mid to late game, don't expect them to be killing machines early game. Melee classes will never be able to wipe an entire room in a second nor have the same utility, what makes melee classes good is that they will always been at their max potential because they don't have to manage resources like casters do.
Haste has been op since Baldurs Gate 1. :P
One of my favorite things in the old Infinity Engine games was to overlap Web and Entangle and then unleash Fireballs, Prismatic Sprays and Horrid Wilting on crowds caught inside. You can do the same in Kingmaker.
Casters can buff your real damage dealers which are martial classes, that single damage spell you can do per turn gets saving throwed against majority of enemies compared to the 5 high dmg attacks your martial classes do per turn. Debuffs are a joke, your feated and specialized spells with their DC 20 just never hit against enemies they're meant to be used on, the tough enemies (with their +20 save mods) not some random bush bandits or goblins.
Only reason to use a caster is to get buffs like Haste and debuffs that have no save against them like Enervate. If it has saving throw against it then it's pretty much a waste of spell slot.
I don't know if i agree with this.
Sometimes it's t good to have de uff and damage spells.
Even if they save the spell, at least some damage is better than no damage and it can give an easier time to finish the enemies quick.
Simulacrum, Time Stop, Chain Contingency, Pierce magic, Lower Resistance, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting.
Baldur's gate 2, the good old time.
Made me feel like Momonga in Overlord preparing the fight against Shalltear.
Chain Contingency on a Sorc was even better, just cast it mid battle and watch your spells fly
Octavia. Arcane trickster. Scorching ray sneak attack. Hits like a truck
More like a train at mach 4
wait for fireball sneak attacks!
It would be nice to see your review of spells (esp. from early lev) that are rly strong.
Spell selection is one of the biggest hurdles to new players playing casters. Both in the game, and in the pen and paper version. ( casters are even better in PnP, since there are more spells, and alot of things you can do with them, that are near impossible to script in a videogame )
The best i can do to give advice, is to google something like "pathfinder wizards handbook", which will usually direct you to comprehensive guides to the class mentioned(wizard), and all the feats, skills and spells that are recommended for it. Some of the options arent avaliable, but those that are, are usually a good idea to consider.
I play a chaotic Evil Sorcerer, from the Dragon blood line "Red" giving bonus damages to all fire spells i toss, by choosing spell specialization on an early level together with Focus, my Scorching hands deal 3d4+3 at lvl 1, you can do this to most of the Sorcerer bloodlines, when you get fireball or scorching ray just change the specialization to those giving you 2 beams earlier with scorching ray at lvl 7, and +2d6 extra fireball damage at lvl 5 to a total of 8d6+8 at lvl 6 which is insane. Ray of enfeeblement is actually so underrated its silly, it drains your target for 1d6+1 strength per lvl, making meleers pretty much useless against you if they have not got Weapon finesse, and perk to deal damage thru dexterity. A good way is to put your points into Dex and Charisma so your touch attacks hit more often, and you get extra AC to boot.
Web is the strongest spell on the first levels after you get it. Just catch your enemies and shoot them. When someone escapes the web, he is usually alone and thus easy to kill by melee characters. No other buff or spell needed most of the times.
There's a good list of comprehensive pathfinder guides that you can use to pick spells, though bare in mind while doing so that some of those spells won't be in the game.
Caster: I used my two spells.
Non-Caster: I attack every round. Checkmate.
Isnt the consensus that caster are incredibly strong and the martial classes are almost garbage in comparison? I'm surprised that somebody would even consider them to be weak.
Magic users have alot of utility outside of combat in tabletop and almost none in video games. There are multiple problems going on here just to name a few. 1. This is most peoples first experience with Pathfinder so they don't know the rules. 2. The difficulty of the game is spiky as hell you either crush everything or get crushed *depending on your settings*. 3. Placing spell aoes is kind of a pain in the ass in the game where as in table top you can handwave it more.
There is a huge problem because of the way the game works, everyone moves at the same time so going first and doing a spell before the enemies can move isn't possible. Losing a shitton of utility spells which were cut, all saving throws are rediculessly buffed in this game so you are almost exclusive reliant on buff spells which is fine but not what most people expect from a wizard or sorcerer.
I tried playing a sorcerer or something in Baldur's Gate and it was a terrible idea. He kept dying. So I played a Monk in Neverwinter Nights with a Cleric as companion and I had almost no problems. Casters require micromanagement, mostly do buffs and are squishy, while the martial classes are just reliable enough not to babysit.
@@robinheinemann1740 A lot of encounters can begin with a surprise round, if you see the enemies on the edge of your screen you can assign an action to each party member before combat starts, so long as you have everyone act at the same time.
web+grease + acid splash/magic missile/boneshatter => job well done
Lets face it, when people think about powerful magic in D&D style game they think about BG2. No game since replicated the feeling of walking into a room, casting time stop and killing all non-boss enemies during it and if BG3 is using 5E it won't either.
Damn straight, the editions of dnd and the games since then are rubbish compared to the power you could wield in BG2
People think casters are WEAK? I could never beat this game without my transmutation and enchantment spells. Displacement, Haste, Slow, Delay Poison, Protection from Energy, attribute boosters, Alchemist bombs, the list goes on and on. Never ever underestimate a heightened Hold Person or Hideous Laughter. A single Hideous Laughter spell rendered the troll king encounter completely trivial for me (Challenging mode). Also shoutouts to the hilarious combo of Stinking Cloud and Delay Poison Communal.
Edit: Your videos are very good at illustrating how to approach this game through the Pathfinder ruleset. Neglecting entire schools of magic just because they don't deal direct damage (something I did in Baldurs Gate 2 a lot) is really detrimental. I've yet to fail an encounter if I get to buff up with all my defensive spells beforehand (barring an insanely unlucky crit that oneshots one of my tanks).
What you said is right but at the same time we got the opposite problem of what you did in Baldurs Gate. Every spell that does deal damage can be (and should) be neglected right now. The buffs and Control casts are great but the actual damage spells arent. Look at your list. 1 Damage spell and those probably because you are talking about the trolls were you need acid damage to kill them. People imagine a caster as someone who kills his enemys but that is not the case right now. It is just plain better to chain buffs or control effects and let the non casters do all the damage.
This is a problem with the game I think, this game is very bad at communicating the core Pathfinder ruleset. The basic rules are never really explained properly, that being AC, attack rolls, actions/turns/rounds, armor vs touch, AoO and so forth. You also have no idea your 3 points you pumped into Charisma on your fighter because you wanted him to be able to handle encounters "diplomatically" is completely and utterly useless because your Bard companion outshines you. I digress.
It is like you say, a problem of approach. People think a caster is this wizard with burning eyes and a mean stance hurling fireballs and lightning bolts. Sure you can do that but you'll kill your Barb and Cleric in the process.
They should really make that gnome in the beginning use enchantments spells to show the player how powerful they can be. It would also make him an interesting boss fight later on.
Edit: I disagree the strong Evocation spells should be rejected, they do have their uses, mostly as battle initiators in my case. You have to be clever in your usage, but if you take the time and plan around them they can be very effective. I rarely ever use them outside of touch spells on my Magus but still, sometimes a well-aimed Fireball is just what the doctor ordered.
Those crits are some kind of sick joke, but Im not trying to make some crazy no reload playthrough so its yet funny.
Better shout out Delay Poison Communal + Cloud Kill
Who the fuck ever said casters are weak?
Empowered maximized fireball would disagree with any arguments they might have.
You just need to optimize for it a bit. Draconic sorcerer with evocation spell focus and lesser maximize metamagic rod (is 14.000 gp, can be found at vendors at random) at 6th level can nuke a 20ft rds aoe for:
6d6 (maximized) + 6 (from draconic bloodline. 1 dmg per die rolled) = 42 flat damage.
THAT'S AT 6TH LEVEL...
Now, imagine you're at 15th level
get 2 metamagic feats: Intensified+empowered. Get Maximize metamagic rod (normal one).
A 15th level sorcerer can nuke an entire encounter with Empowered Maximized Intensified fireball for:
(15d6 (maximized) + 15) x 1.5
(90 + 15) x 1.5 = 157 damage in a 20 ft rds.
Now, you do use a 6th level spell slot...
BUT COME THE FUCK ON. 150+ damage in a 20ft rds...
My problem is I have 3 casters with optimized builds for specific spell types... and they constantly have enemies make saves, it's absolutely infuriating how many spell slots I waste on a daily basis on spells that fail because the enemies save.
I'd argue that's a problem with the game and it's inflated saves, not the overall strength of the character compared to it's martial equivalent.
Saves are pretty easy, and work similar to stone paper scissors: Evasive/fast stuff has high reflexes, melee brutes have abysmal will saves, when sentient, pure casters have low fortitude, and e.g. clerics have low reflexes. - Casting fortitude spells against melee enemies is generally a recipe for disaster.
know your enemy, if you cast "Finger of Death" on melee, you will fail. Just click on casters and Dominate Person on the meleers. This game was quite intended for the ppl who played a lot on PnP version. Try to play Baldur's Gate with no experience on D&D. You will fail even harder.
First let me say that I agree with you. However, I remember coming from playing a Warlock in WoW to playing my first party-based rpg. Shout out to DA:O. The idea of OP for me was a totally self sufficient PC. The idea of weak was a carry who needed others to do the damage and take the beating. It's a shift of philosophy that most aren't going to take to right away.
A twohander fighter at lvl 20 with scythes is going to do more damage. At level 20 they get guaranteed crit and increased multiplier so that 4x goes to 5 times. Power attack is increased by strength by 100%. Say you do 50 damage a hit they goes to 400 damage to all nearby enemies with great cleave. They are stupidly overpowered, but only if you get to lvl 20.
I would never expect the heir to D&D, origin of the "quadratic wizards, linear warriors" trope, to have _underpowered_ casters.
Some people think that in this game.
In 1st Edition martials dominated casters at nearly all levels of play. It hasn't always been a spellcaster's game.
J. Jonah Jameson -Then you never played 1st edition d&d. Spell casters were always very powerfull at higher lvls.
It doesn't. Pathfinder's tabletop still has overpowered casters. The only reason people say casters are underwhelming in this game is because a lot of the utility spells from the tabletop have not been ported over. Spells like charm person, fly, suggestion, and teleport. This basically turns casters into buff/debuff support characters, rather than the playmakers they are in the tabletop.
To me its always been about balancing a party. You need the warrior classes to deal with the random mooks. Imagine a 6 man wizard gang, fighting a swarm of kobolds.
I know this is a bit old at this point, but I have to say. I think the issue is a lot of ppl playing this are coming from mmorpgs or arpgs and not from actual table top. In most of the other pc rpgs you're focusing so much on damage that other stats and affects don't matter much, it's just how much damage per second you can put out. When you're playing table top, you walk in to a dark room, and 5-10 enemies come out from your flanks, it becomes immediately apparent how good dropping 3 of them in a magical pit, or fearing a few away can be.
Also, when you're actually rolling the dice to save from being poisoned or feared, you'd be amazed how much you want that +2 to saving throws lmao.
I guess the 1 thing that can make casters feel "weak" us the spell limit. At low levels when you only have a couple uses of a spell it can make the character feel gimped
Really the problem with this game is that if you aren't already a very experienced crpg or pathfinder player there is literally no way to know which spells are good, which aren't and which school to pick for what. I read that some schools don't even have lvl9 spells which you can't even know unless you get to that level in the game and find out. Maybe in a few months or years when all the holes are filled in the experience will be better than it is currently.
Exactly this. There's no useful guide in the game and the encyclopedia SUCKS. Tooltip wordings are not exactly clear either. I had to spend hours learning the basics of the tabletop game whilst also watching loads of example builds and reading tons of forum posts to understand some of the stuff in this game.
going thelassian specialist in enchantment for the early sleep domination doesnt feel super strong in this game
Can't agree more. Hell back then even BG had a thick manual detailing the adapted ruleset for AD&D.
lol that's a good thing heaven forbid you wouldn't have every planned out must suck going through life being a real NPC
Crowd control spells are op, strength/AC buffs are op, de-buffs are op, haste is op. So it has been, so it will always be.
23:54 *long pause, sighs* alright let's talk about fireball...
Quite true. I find it is better for Arcane casters to do crowd control rather than single-target damage, but it depends. Of course, once you run out of spells, you are extremely weak in comparison, but then again you can give them a few levels of another compatible class to make them solid even when out of spells or use archetypes that often do that. Nuance: casters lose access to high level spells if they multi-class, so not always a good idea (trick is to browse the highest spells you can ever get and see if you feel they can be sacrificed for a nifty multi-class).
Heroism is a GREAT spell. I always try to get it on at least 2 characters. Not sure if you mentioned it at the end, BUT don't forget ability BUFFS can help out in other ways. I have come across more than one vid showing the dangers of disease and poison in this game. Many baddies lower your stats this way, and buffs can both aid in prevention (increase in your Armor class as well as saving throws) as well as keeping what could be a crippling debuff to a stat from getting out of hand.
I had a different run where my wizard Octavia's strength was so debuffed, she was like at 2 or 3. Had to unequip some of her items as well as switch her stat bonus from Dex to Strength just to get her back into a "decent" strength range. I think the devs have made sure many of the spells have some use in game, whereas there are a ton of spells NO ONE takes in Neverwinter Nights 2. They are known to be just plain bad.
I remember casters being really OP, especially Arcane ones, in these kind of games. Was a Wizard in all of NWN playthroughs and Icewind dale; so i tried to avoid using one as long as possible. finally settled on just getting a caster for CC instead of raw firepower and in my second playthrough im gonna avoid having any arcane users; fully martial force!
Teamwork, as mentioned here, is really the key. You can really make your encounters much easier if you take this by heart without doing any fancy micromange stuff.
Haste & Slow are 3rd level spells, which really helps you frontliners to dish out damage and having to recieve less damage in return and thus are quite helpful in any encounter - one of my most favourite spells since BG 1 ;)
If you up against spiders, poisonous Hydras those long term communal spells offering you resistances or making your party outright immune to the effects are just fantastic. So Delay poison communal makes your whole party immune to poison for one hour, usually enough to clear a dungeon level. Same goes for those comunal resistance spell which let you decide what you party should be resistant to for one hour reducing any damage by that source by a flat percentage before making any saves. It really makes those will-o-whips lightning bolts or goblin alchemists but a triffle.
Arcane Casters are Weak is the problem there at Best Glass Cannons.
Glass Cannons are Weak, They just happen to fucken blow shit up at the same time.
Edit : Give a Bonus Example for Pathfinder KM, The Enemies in this game all have inflated Spell REsistance / Saving throws and such, So unless we are talking about Easy Diff or such, Your spellcaster is just more often then not be able to over-come saves / penertration and not effect ppl via offencily Buffs R the way to go
First! Love the guide (Keep em comming!)
Also can you talk about the "Duellist" prestige class. I've literally not seen ANYONE talk about it :S
I might be able to do something like that. :)
There are a number of ways to build it but overall it's kind of a mediocre class. However, it is very cool and is definitely fine on Normal-Challenging difficulty with proper support, like most martial classes.
@@darkfireslide Can you talk about the weapons on Kingmaker too, like which is generally best for which class and build (Dex/Str) and why?
As a person who is a second edition dungeon master and has been playing Dungeons & Dragons since the early 80s I think what people don't understand is Dungeons & Dragons has never been about balance.
At higher levels casters are more powerful than most any other class and that's has always been okay.
With casters you are pretty much weak as hell up until Level 5 then you start getting stronger.
What I have always loved about them since dragons is the fact that if you know the rules well enough and you really put together a strong character then you have the potential to be more powerful than anybody else.
That's why I play 2nd edition I don't want something that makes it where everything is always balanced. I want to be rewarded for forethought and careful planning of my character build.
But then again I'm old school maybe things have changed but I can promise you if everyone becomes equal in Dungeons & Dragons it will just be watered down to rock paper scissor and that won't be fun at all.
I tell my new players right out the gate that casters become the most powerful characters in the game but they also require the most planning and knowledge of the game to be used effectively.
I think part of the problem is people are more focused on how powerful their characters are rather than just having a good time everyone will get their time to shine and be a hero with a good DM at the helm.
Sure a wizard is your break glass in case of emergency character but that doesn't mean he'll be great in every situation I guarantee you that fighter and Paladin will get their time to shine.
Every game has balance no matter how little you think it matters. If it had no balance you could prick your finger on a nail entering a tavern in the opening moments of an adventure and then die of an infection 2 days later. Balance is the idea of fair play. If a game isn't fair in at least some regard nobody would play it. Well except masochists.
@@Scottx125Productions I don't think what you're saying is balance. I'm simply saying that Dungeons & Dragons isn't supposed to be like World of Warcraft where every character has a chance to be equally powerful and beat each other in a one-on-one PVP battle.
A 20th level fighter should not be as powerful as a 20th level wizard.
Like I said though I'm old school and I'm a dungeon master for over 20 years so my perspective might be a little bit different.
But the thing that always made Dungeons & Dragons great was the fact that you knew things could stack and if you planned everything out right you could create a character that could be more powerful than a lot of other people in your party but it took extensive knowledge of the game.
It seems nowadays people don't want to study as hard and Dungeons & Dragons has been watered down and made very simple and everybody just wants to be powerful.
This is why so many people are going back to the editions 3.5 and below because there is much less balancing.
I don't play 5th edition so in the end it won't make a difference to me anyway. But I really think this new generation of Dungeons and Dragons players really doesn't understand what Dungeons & Dragons is supposed to be.
It's not just pick a character and become super powerful as you level up. It's Pick a Class and then think about what you want to be at level 20 or you might end up designing a brick.
The amount of fights in the game and the Limit to resting because of quest timers all around make them useless nontheless. They are emptied so damn quickly.
Spell casters can be built to do loads of damage, be support. Or just be a wizard with so many spells you can do everything. In my game I'm running 2 melee, 2 mages (1 sorc dps 1 arcane trickster support/dps), 1 bard and 1 Mystic Theurge (support/healer). Though I have to admit at the start of the game casters do seem weak, they don't do great damage and the only thing going for them is their supportive spells and aoe. Though once you start to unlock the heavy hitting spells at level 6 they really start to shine.
KM is based off of more traditional Pathfinder Rules and yeah, Mages are pretty terrible/weak low level, but once they get up there in level they can pretty much destroy everything with a well placed fireball or disintegration ray. It's kinda a tradition in old school styled PnP RPGs like D&D and Pathfinder. The whole Mages being powerful from the start is very much a modern videogameish trope.
@@vileone13 Yeah. I prefer the idea of mages being essentially godlike but slow to ramp up. It's the idea of a mage needs to learn to use their spells and slowly grow to learn more powerful spells, as well as learn to handle weaker spells so they can eventually cast stronger versions of said spells. Rather than just being immediately the best at whatever spell you get.
I'm in the last dungeon as of now and there you'r party is kinda torn away from you and you need to find your friends. I have found Almost all of them and now i don't have a bard in party and this is heartbroken time for me. Linzi powered up so much my band of missfits so i thinking about generating a new bard. Maybe it will save me from constant Gaze paralyze. Seriously, i want to cry for how i miss my little bard :(
Arcane casters are good even at 1st level. Ever tried grease? You just throw that on the enemies and theyll be face hugging the ground for half the fight
2/3s casters seem to be the sweet spot in this game, excelling through most of the game.
I would say as it is mages are pretty weak. Their spells fall into three cathegories - damage, buffs and debuffs.
1. Damage - unreliable, most opponent have insane bonuses to reflex saves, so fireballs and everything reflex based deals 50% damage. Also as soon as the fight starts your characters mix, so there's only the fog of war fireball reliable option.
2. Buffs - very reliable, extremely powerful.
3. Debuffs - same problem as with damage - most opponents, especially the problematic ones, have enough save bonus on everything to just discard your debuffs, because they never land. Even if you spec in certain schools, there's nothing you can do about opponents, that have +19 will save when you're barely level 10.
As it currently stands the best way would be rolling a paladin, adding Valerie, Amiri, Harrim, Linzi and Octavia to the mix. That way you're covered from all sides, have a strong first line (so no opponents get to your squishies), one source of arcane damage (Octavia), four sources of buffs (Harrim, your character, Linzi and Octavia) and an insane ammount of damage. That 10d6 from a firebal is literally nothing compared to a hasted paladin with all the buffs in the world charging at someone with smite evil on. I have around +30 to hit on level 10, 16-20 crit range and three attacks per round.
Story wise you get a melee character (useful in those pesky solo moments) with high charisma and persuasion.
Paladins... they'll just never stop being OP :).
I really agree with this. Yes casters are great buffers, no real question there, but their chance to hit on spells is awful, especially on higher difficulties when the AI gets tremendous save buffs. The worst type of CC, is unreliable CC because it breaks your tactics starting the fight if it fails. Also, unlike the alchemist their stronger AOE attacks that are generally more helpful also hit teammates.
baleful polymorph on octavia specced as transmuter. polymorphed the gnomes in pitax and the party oneshotted others.
btw you totaly forgot SUMMONS. My clerics just go with buffs + summons. Huge or Elder Elementals + animate dead and you have at least +6 companions on every fights.
Oh yeah, summons are quite funny. I can't seem to buff them though. I used them against Armag, just gave him too much meat to grind through to get to my team, then tanked him with Amiri with all the damage reduction I could get (Valerie got torn to shreds), landed Sunder Armor and destroyed him in a two rounds (Nok Nok pwnz). I always take summon spells on most levels though just to be on the safe side. The level 6 or 7 cleric undead summon seems at least OK. I mean he can take way more punishment than anybody else including shrinked Nok Nok with like 45AC.
the best summons are the animate dead (6 skeletons with low hp but do a lot of damage even high level) and then the last 3 elemental summons, the others are quite crap. for the buffs...i don't buff them, just let them goin for the "meat shield" lol. Consider with 2 clerics you have on field:
12 Skeletons + 2 Huge/Elder Elemental (if noone else can summon obv.) everyone is buffed by linzi with performance and hasted on 1° turn by octavia, place some aura of clerics and everything will pop off.
BTW Valerie is my main tank, stalwart defender with all the best armor and shields..all the feats on extra DR and she wins. Amiri is like "useless" for tanking untill very high level, at least for me.
My main is a sorcerer and very powerful. Of course, I have played Pathfinder for years and understand how to properly use and level them. I have a good round of spells, direct damage, defense, and even some summoning spells for emergencies. Linzi is great at using haste and bardic performance. Octavia I use for enlarge person and magic missile, also gave her a summoning spell. So my casters are my primary force, and Amiri and Valerie are front line to keep enemies from getting to them.
25:39 No!
Don't fudge the numbers. Average roll on 7d6 is 24,5. Assuming reflex saves that is 12,25. Versus four targets that's 49 damage, not 60.
26:42 "Mopped up most of the enemy party" That's another rash statement. If you assume the enemy makes their reflex saves as in the previous example you hit each enemy for 12+ damage. That's only "mopping up" if the enemies already were very seriously wounded. In that circumstance I'd take 50 damage focused on a single enemy instead practically every time.
It's probably because people have never played the Tabletop game, I personally do play a lot of tabletop and I tend to create Utility characters rather than Damage and I can easily say that I tend to solve most boss battles and difficult encounters by having a trick up my sleeve to either boost the party, debuff the enemy or change the environment, everyone knows my characters are practically worthless in the regular encounters but that they will save everybody's skin as soon as a difficult encounter starts.
And though this computer doesn't grant me the power that I would have at the actual table since I can't get creative with my illusions and whatnot, the Casters are still pretty strong, so I always make sure to bring at least 3 casters with me.
Caster hate in Pathfinder ia a littlw baffling to me.
It's even crazier in the pen and paper version where yoy have access to utility spells that can swquence break a linear story line.
This is D&D. Casters are weak on low levels and powerful on high levels. Nothing new.
I like my wizard to be built around killing a lot of squish cannon fodder mobs. With big aoe spells. With some CC spells for bigger tougher targets. Having my rogue more for anti big. Bard and clerics are great for buffing the shit out of your party. All that +hit and +damage from bard. With clerics being great at buffing defense. All caster are great at debuffing enemies. Fighter more of a front line meat shield. Honestly people are just looking at the end numbers. Where a rogue can instant kill someone. Not the way the game is supposed to be played as.
Man if people think casters are weak that is nuts. Low level casters sure, but mid to late game they become pretty insane.
Do spells share usage? I used Grease and it took away a charge/use for my Laughter as well
Sorcerers, Bards, Magus, Inquisitors, yes; Wizards, Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers, no, you choose how many uses of each spell you want per day
Summoning is the other thing that gets nuts fast.
When you can put another character on the field that’s half as good as your fighters… then another, then another…
Casters are great, but they buffed encounter DC rolls rather than properly increasing encounter difficulty which severely weakens casters and forces super specialization (GSF++) to just stand a small chance.
I've made a sylvan sorcerer with a pet leopard (upgrades early at lv4) and its fantastic. Basically a free tank that will rez during a rest if it dies. And by the time it becomes weak you have high level spells anyway
A video on how well built the pre-fab characters are could be interesting. A few of them (Octavia especially, but also Linzi and Reg) are built on a pretty solid foundation, and a few more are imperfect but usable (Harrim, because all clerics are superb), and in ways that are fairly straightforward -- but it'd be nice to have some tips on maximizing the characters who are neither obviously good nor obviously bad.
I remember when Haste wasn't area effect, and used to age the recipient 1 year.
Whats Your opinion on Magus/ sword saint or Arcane Tricktster?
If I have a limited number of spells per day, what do I do if there is one more encounter and I don't have any spells left? How can I recharge them?
You would need to rest for 8 hours. However, managing spells and their use is similar to other game's systems of managing mana, it's just that the spells are a lot more impactful rather than something to be spammed. :)
@@darkfireslide ok thx!
@@darkfireslide hm...but what if I cannot rest?
@@maltimoto this is where scrolls, potions, and wands come into play, whether you used them before or after you used your normal spells from your spell pool
So why is a bard better than a dedicated caster? Wouldn't you be better off with just an extra cleric or control wizard or something in the party?
Casters are not weak, I'm currently attempting a "solo run" where my Main character is the only character, And the main trope of this character is the fact that he's abusing the scroll savant archetype and multiclassing with Paladin. The fact that I can Solo run this game on the premise that I'm essentially a caster of any class due to scrolls is the only reason I've made it about halfway into the second act.
5:20 - Not sure what the discussion surrounding Valerie is about, but she is 100% the strongest story companion and one of the few that is outright better than a player-built merc. Her stat total is very high (even if you consider the odd-numbered ones to be 1 point lower, she has around 30 points in stats, and that's before accounting for her quest bonuses) and those stats are well distributed. You also get her at lvl 1, and even though her first level is kinda wasted, it's still a max BAB class with a ton of free feats and there are no downsides to it (like useless domains). The reason you might find her underwhelming is because you kept giving her fighter levels. She should be a bard (+RDD, ofc), maybe a scion.
Anyway, only divine casters are bad. Res/restore is dirt cheap, but priests are still useful because of the party wide poison immunity, which should be cast 24/7 so you can walk around in stinking cloud. Honestly, that and a couple of immunities/protections for specific opponents are the only good thing about priests. Arcane casters already have the most important buffs, and don't get me started on damage/cc spells.
Arcane casters are completely broken. With a few exceptions, any build for any role you can think of can be improved by replacing some/most/all of the levels with an arcane casting class:
-Melee DPS? - Rogues, rangers and barbs are completely inferior to a vivisectionist or a sword saint.
-Tank? - You can't get enough AC with full plate + shield on higher difficulties, you need dodge stacking. Monks can do that, but they don't have concealment and mirror image. So, it's bard, scion or sorc with a monk/paladin dip.
-Support caster? - As explained before, priests are trash, use alchemists instead.
-Ranged DPS? - Bows are garbage compared to ray attacks and spells, so arcane trickster or pure sorc will always out-DPS any fighter, ranger or whatever rogue mix you can think of, and they can also protect themselves.
-CC? - Well, kineticists are overpowered, but sylvan/arcane sorc is just as good. So is a grenadier, at least early in the game. Divine casters don't work because they have the same important CC spells as arcane casters, but their DC is lower.
-Skill monkey - Sure, you could make a rogue, but then you are stuck with a rogue in your party, which sucks. Wizards and alchemists will be able to max all the skills you need and leave the lore checks to your bard.
tl;dr - divine casters ARE weak, arcane caster are OP.
The problem with giving Val levels in another class is that she already has fighter levels, meaning she's effectively at a negative level adjustment, which also makes her bad
Divine casters are great. Druids have an OP animal companion and crazy buffs while Clerics have strong CC (Archon's Aura at 3rd level for example) and Heal is a ridiculously strong spell no other class can replicate. Would definitely not call them weak lol also Paladin is probably the best martial class overall due to crazy high saves and the weapon enchantment
It is odd how I came over your kingmaker videos by searching for them instead of in my sub feed when I subbed to you years ago. I assumed you stopped making videos a long time ago when I got nothing in my sub feed.
I had month-long lapses in videos at times due to some turbulence in my life, but I'm hoping the videos will be more frequent from here on.
The weird thing was that I was not subscribed to you anymore. Glad to hear you got trough this turbulence :)
Have you played Tyranny? I'm thinking I'm gonna restart.
My main problem with casters in this game has always been how the strongest debuff/cc spells also affect your frontline. Let's say you use Harrim's Fear in this video and try to hit those 4 Bandits coming at you from the point where he's standing, aren't you going to hit your 3 fighters too? Ofcourse this can be mitigated by positioning Harrim differently, but this has 2 downsides: micromanagement (which some people don't mind), and it puts him in harm's way, and although Harrim (with his strange build) might be pretty tanky for a caster, he is nowhere near as tanky as any of your frontliners, which becomes a problem once you reach the later chapters.
The only mass crowd control spells I use are things like Web, Grease and stuff like that, and when it comes to damaging spells, Controlled Fire Ball/Controlled Molten Orb or their uncontrolled counterparts once I finally have access to things like Firebrand. Granted, I never played D&D or Pathfinder before Kingmaker, so a lot of possibilities are definitely lost on me, but for players like me without previous experience, casters are relegated to Buff-/Summonbots, Swarmkillers and the occasional, highly situational AoE CC or Nuke. Which still makes them extremely powerful, it just doesn't play into the traditional pc gaming fantasy of casters raining hellfire upon your enemies.
Octavia with her Ray Sneak Attacks and Reggie are a whole different story ofcourse, I started using them on my second playthrough and was surprised how much burst damage they can dish out when properly built.
I think you nailed it on the head though: if you micromanage properly then these spells work. Sure, you can build the ultimate auto-attacking team and that works, but you can also use certain actions and spells like Fear to shut down encounters before they even really begin as long as you position correctly. That's why Pathfinder is so interesting and tactical compared to other CRPGs.
@@darkfireslide Absolutely! Once I got away from the usual "Click on things until they die"-mindset, I started enjoying the game a lot more. And even before that I had more than enough time invested in the game to say that it was worth the pricetag. :) Kingmaker doesn't do a very good job explaining the game mechanics, but that isn't in the least bit surprising, considering how deeply complex the system already is. That's why your channel is an absolute blessing for inexperienced players like me. Currently I'm on my second playthrough and just wanted to experiment a bit with a Wildshaping druid (Defender of the First World because I want to get some revenge for how hard I got wrecked in the later chapters xD) and your video on it helped me a lot, and I am grateful for how in-depth and easy to understand your explanations are.
Your Pathfinder video was really good! When's the next video coming out
casters are great for:
haste which is one of the better buffs in the game, no matter the level.
cleric buffs and protections. protection from energy, communal.. and delay poison, communal make your entire party immune to poison damage for a time and protection from energy gives you a shield that blocks a certain amount of energy damage per level. lesser restoration also cures any ability point damage you might get during adventuring.
arcane trickster can bring both magic and sneak attack. a 0 level cantrip called acid splash can still do around 10-15 damage and kill the branded trolls that are immune to fire without having to use alchemist flasks.
mages can, of course, bring fireball which is great for AoE and they can copy spells into their spell book for memorizing later.
and these are just the basics.. you can do so much with casters in pathfinder its crazy.
as for linzi.. i dont really use her as a damage dealer.. she's a great buff character and i think her CC is underrated, particularly when you are going after the stag lord. later on, she's more for buffs and CC is less effective.. but remember that there are many CC spells that still do something even if the enemy saves.
It's because of the low amount of spellslots, not being able to change the spells when leveling.
Sure Harim can buff the party but he is useless for the rest of the day. In a game where there is more then one or two encounters per day the spellcasters wont be able to keep up.
The problem I have with casters in this game is, that the combat is real-time. I don't like that I have to cast all the spells manually without time to think about them as I would in a turn-based combat.
Pause?
Pause, do the spel, a few seconds later it is cast... enemies are not in the area anymore
Might be that I am more in line with DnD5e Rule, but the conversion of turn-based into real-time was a bad decision, I think.
Bear in mind that you can actually redirect spell (change its target) mid-cast. Progress of casting won't be lost. Just choose the same spell again and pick a new target/spot, character would just continue casting while retargeting at the same time. Saved me of potential fireball's friendly fire countless times.
Pause with Space and with V u can do a slo mo
"just pause" is a poor solution to using turn based rules but not making the game turn based, really frustrating design imo.
Harrim's touch of chaos is pretty good too.
thanks for all the tips. heleped a lot. and very objective, too. right to the point
Can you recommend a video that gives a guide on making a dex based Magus character? I feel pathfinder makes it very hard to make a decent dex based magus (or any dex based melee), but I also feel I don't understand the game mechanics and I'm missing something. Any advice?
The trick is to get Weapon Finesse, then Weapon Focus with the type of finesse weapon you want to use, then take either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace with the weapon you focused on. Takes 3 feats but then you'll do your Dex as damage instead of Strength. From there, or even after taking Weapon Finesse, get Piranha Strike to trade Attack for Damage.
Bummer that it takes 3 feats to do that but good advice. One of the things I don't like about pathfinder or any d20 game prior to D&D 5e is that making a dex based melee character required using valueable feats. I've always thought dex based fighting should just be an option that didn't require such investments, but c'est la vie.....thanks again.
theres the ranged magus... maybe doenst fell like you spending so many feats. Seems nice, didnt play this one yet.
People just want to do direct damage with casters. They do not understand the concept of teamwork or buff and debuff in this type of game. They are more used to do direct damage only games like shooters etc etc. This is simply not how pathfinder kingmaker works. So people, put the gun down and stir the brain a bit more, damage is not everything and does not have to be direct....I really hope your amazing video will shed some light on the topic for everyone!! Thanks again!!
So, your most prominent and important reason why Casters are strong is because they can buff your fighters. And you even note that some of the buffs become useless when you get better gear. Yeah nuh. Might as well then just replace casters with fighters. Who the fuck would choose to be a mage or a sorc if all you are going to be doing is buffing or debuffing. A healer is more exciting than that.
Wait people complain that Linzy is weak? My dude.... She is a bard, which makes her automatically one of the best characters in the game. It doesn't matter that she isn't minmaxed, the only reason to not bring her along in every party is if you are playing a bard yourself.
Currently I'm at level 10 in the game (I've played TT but this is my first run with the CRPG), so with inspire competence, one of her earliest abilities she is giving a +3 to attack rolls, a +3 to damage rolls, and a +3 to saving throws. That is the equivalent of having a +3 weapon and a +3 cloak of resistance, that stacks with your magic weapons and cloaks of resistance.... She can haste, she can slow, she can buff ability scores, she can completely shut down multiple enemy's turn. The only thing she doesn't do well is stand in the frontlines.
She wasn't minmaxed when you get her and I didn't min-max her afterwards (I focused on making her passable in the damage department, she's never going to compete with a well or even halfway decently built fighter (although she deals more dpr than Valerie, who I stuck with out of pure laziness but finally replaced before starting the current quest-line with a merc.) but that's because I think it's fun to have a little halfling running around shooting people with a crossbow, not because I think it's the optimal way to build a bard), but even with me NOT building her as the "best bard" she's still the MVP of the party, with only my merc wizard giving her a run for her money. That's including my MC (which is how you actually build a sword and board tank *cough cough* Valerie) and my merc fighter (which is how you actually build a two handed damage dealer *cough cough* Amiri)
Those large AOE CC spells certainly do appear very powerful, but arent you as likely to disable your allies as your enemies. It seems like it would be difficult to use such large spells without essentially rolling the dice to see if you allies or your enemies get hurt more.
I don't understand how people think Linzi is weak. Bardic Inspiration+multiple slots for Grease and Summon Creature is a perfect setup for a god-wizard. Between her and Tristain's infinite buffs, you have a friggin *busted* core. Throw in anyone who gets Web and give Linzi some.of the animal totem buff spells and encounters feel mean spirited on normal difficulty.
Basically in this game blaster sorcerer took a huge hit they don’t get magical lineage or spell perfection
Are these things still relevant for EE version?
Absolutely
@@darkfireslide ah good, thanks
Because of your videos i am considering buying the game. Thank you mate.
Papa darkfire is alive??? I missed you bro
Please consider doing a guide on the Kingdom building element of the game -love your details -ty!
Cool to see you producing more content. I hope you're doing alright dude.
Well no shit. Casters have *always* started out weak and ended up being the most powerful characters you can possibly have.
3 casters is a must I think. Ideally a good mix..a buffer/summoner ideal. I have an Eldritch rogue n sorc plus cleric as standard. Blur/displace always before big fights.
"Casters solve encounters"
Well said my friend, well said.
there is the impossible Hargulka fight that turns easy with a caster spec-ed into hideous laughter; if you don't have that you are forced to give up or lower difficulty all the way to story mode
Wtf. Just haste your party and cast dispell magic if u cant kill him fast enough. You can dispell magic to remove his haste
Regarding your curse spell,, if you cast it on fighter might as well drain his mental stats, since that is their "weak" department, and once the stat reaches 0 we all know what happens ^^
The reason why people think this is because casters do feel weak in terms of their damage output and this is due to most of the mobs/bosses having resistance to the various types of damage. Add to that their squishiess and newb players naturally assume they are weak compared to the melee classes. This is the wrong way to look at it ofc. The caster classes are very powerful when looked at through the lens of the utility they have to offer the party. They make many situations a lot easier and without them, a lot of situatuations are impossible to get past on the harder difficulties. As an example, when facing a swarm mob that not only do damage but have an AOE ability that places the confused condition on everyone within a certain range and where each mob can only attack one player meaning thy hit several of your players, the caster classes are super strong as they can sleep/debuff which allows you to get past the encounter.
When I see people in the comment section saying that casters should be super damage powerful and should be nuking mobs within 2 spells, it reminds me of how I used to be, where I am now and how much of a newb I was back then haha. This balance between the casters and melee classes is what makes it such a fun game sa you really have to use your head and think out your strategy/spell choice. Each class brings it's own benefits and cons to the party. A huge part to this game is both understanding the spells/abilities and how they synergize with each other in different situations along with positioning and the build. New players eventually learn and understand all this if they put the effort in but this is a complex game and it takes some time to learn.
All this said, when playing on the harder difficulties, the tank/melee classes are easier to play early game and are a lot easier to get past the odd occasion where you are put on your own.
Which is the difficulty in this gameplay?
PnP just doesn´t always translate well into digital media, a good DM will always balance encounters around your party/character and if you heed the signs deadly encounters are avoidable. Very few DM´s make traps the character can´t get out of. Usually you have much less combat in PnP which means 1 minute buffs per level get their appropriate use, with constant encounters in a pc game I prefer longer buffs and more spells at lower levels. A 1 minute magical shield is not going to do much in a dungeon which lasts about 30 minutes or more and provides constant challenges.
Casters just don´t have the same sustainability in PC gaming as they do in PnP, they begin to shine as their spells gain power and meta magic starts shining. In PnP a high level wizard is almost godlike. I think it´s the beginning which is annoying, few tools until your gain a few levels .. and the ones you have are very limited, and if you spec him wrong ... well ... then it will really hurt your character.
Probably people look at damage done directly and if it's less than a fighter's sword then it's bad. Like in football, you can be a player that does a lot of things really well, but if you don't score goals the fans will dismiss you as mediocre.
Casters are fine, I would never run without. That said, the campaign at times, can be really punishing when it comes to time management. For a second or third playthrough, that doesn't matter much, because you kind of know what to expect. But if you have to do challenging missions with no option to rest up, I can see where they come from.
Druid + mammoth pet + buffs =oneshot killers with huge hp and defence better than any tank and dps dealers altogether
My main character is an Alchemist. It's really fun bombs for days.
Your dwarf is very tall and shaven
Basically, Casters in KMaker is similar to Casters in Starcraft2. Fear/Sleep = Protoss Forcefield, Blindness = Zerg Blinding Cloud, Haste = Terran Stimpack, Protection from Energy = Protoss Guardian Shield, and Fireball = Protoss PsiStorm.
Thank you for these videos.
playing on ps4, these vids help a lot
I've played SO many RPGs over the years and one thing Casters ARE NOT WEAK! Trust me every game from Bard's Tale to Baldur's Gate and now this game. Your right about this!
Honestly, I've been playing casters from the start I've played Pathfinder Kingmaker and honestly, the class itself even seems a little bit OP in this game to me. :)
i always used my magic casters as buffers.
for magic damage, i go to kineticists....
People complain about arcane casters because they're so easy to one shot in early game. Even after you've gained a few levels, a caster can easily be focused down by a few enemy archers.
Since the melee classes in this game doesn't have any way to aggro enemies, you have to make sure your arcane caster is buffed with mage armor, shield, and mirror image so they have some survivability.
Divine casters on the other hand, are just good throughout. They're not great at any one thing but they're good at pretty much everything. They can wear armor and use shields so they can take some hits, they can fight OK, they can heal, they can buff, they can crowd control, they can do aoe damage, etc. Druids especially are very powerful.
Man, i miss BG2 with the stupid amount of arcane CANT TOUCH ME spells.
They're fun but they also make fights against casters very predictable. You just go through the same process every time of having your casters unload on enemy casters with dispel, breach, pierce magic, etc. to take down all their defenses and then have your fighters will finish them off in a few hits.
True, but i prefer that + the "caster duels" vs this game. Charge caster -> splat. At least thats the case 90% of the time, and its true for the enemy and your casters too. Spell and physical protection spells only buy them a turn or two.
You dont get sound burst " Right out of the gate" I'm REALLLLYYYYY struggling to make harrim this amazing cleric you keep talking about here. I barely made it to 2nd level with this group. The combat in this game is mind numbingly sluggish. I'm playing it on NORMAL, lol.
I have to have 3 clerics just to survive!