🤠 To me what is matters more than someone just repeating what they have read from their "Cartridges of the World" book! Even though I like to talk about all things related to hunting! When were talking "hunting", why would I want to take advice from someone that has no "ethics" or "experience"? One of the most popular channels, I will leave them unnamed (a scope company), has their "resident" gun lover (Ryan) on talking about elk hunting! I do like the kid, and their are some good topics discussed, but...then he confesses that he has never even shot an elk! 🤯 Now, why would I want to take hunting advice on elk hunting from someone who has never shot one, as to which caliber I should use for such hunting (I wouldn't)? 🤣 Most of these U-Tubers are only out to make some money and pick up sponsors - by promoting their products! Not so here! This channel is about sound advice (one of the very few) and discussions about real questions people have struggles with! None of us has all the answers, but if we share what we have learned, then others won't need to make the same mistakes or waste time reinventing the wheel! Which leaves more time for hunting and shooting, which is what we love to do the most! 😁 GREAT CHANNEL!!! 🤗
Finally someone recognizes the case life benefit!! Bravo!!! I've been using the same 200 brass mostly for competition since 2010. I have to anneal every few loadings but that's it. I do see a big increase in velocity but I built my gun as an ackley from the start up with 27-in barrel.
By far the most intelligent discussion on this topic I’ve came across. I would also really appreciate a video on the 338/06AI. Thanks for posting this.
@@joshhorn5131 I've always wanted a .338-06, never could find one for sale. Now I'm 65, so I guess I'll just continue on with what I've got. DDO passes on GOOD Information, and I'm glad I found it when I did. You all have a Good Day!
I have an handloaded for several AI cartridges. As you have said, some are more beneficial than others as far as velocity gains. Two of my favorites that I use for hunting are the 280AI and 375 H&H AI. I can get 7mm Rem Mag ballistics in a lightweight non-magnum action (Kimber) with the 280AI. And with the 375 H&H AI the gain in case capacity is around 10 grains H2O. I am pushing a 300 grain Nosler at 2800+ FPS and am approaching 375 Remington Ultra Mag velocities with much less powder and recoil. Another favorite is the 6mm-06 AI but thats sort of a double wildcat. The 257 Robert’s AI approaches 25-06 velocity but there isn’t much point since 25-06 Chambered rifles are quite common.
My Father had a 30/06 AI improved built in late 1970's. He reloaded 180 and 200 grain Partions and Inter-lock. This was before "Most" Bonded bullets and no Mono Bullets. He did see more 300 H&H types of velocities back in 1980's. Back then he was pushing a 180 bullet at 2950/2970 and 200 grain at around 2830/2850. I have his old notes and loads. He passed on in 2003. Not bad for the times but not 300 fps over 06. 150 fps was about normal. My Brother in Law still uses the rifle and uses some 180 Accubond in old loads. It shoots them about like partition did 40 years ago 3/4 or so MOA. It hammers Deer/Antalope, he has not gotten a Elk tag yet, but it would be bad medicine for Elk too. Sure new powders might give you a little more today. But if its not broke dont try to fix it.
Thank you for the solid information on poorly cut A.I. chambers. I’ve had my share for sure. My 270 A.I. has a PacNor 1:8 twist for the 170 grain Berger Hunter Hybrids. I can push them at 2,900 fps which is also an accuracy node at mid 50’s pressures. Very manageable and quite adequate for long range plinking with the atmospheric BC which that bullet offers. I hunt with it sure. Is it my preferred whitetail rifle and cartridge? Hardly. My preferred deer rifles are custom Sako 85’s in standard 270 win and 8x57 Mauser which I can load for but have no need to do so. When factory ammo produces 1/2” five shot groups what’s handloading gonna gain you besides wasting time? I grew up idolizing Parker Ackley and still do. It was his two volume set which first taught me about ballistic coefficient and twist rates among other nuggets at the ignorant age of 12. What an icon. Great video.
@@greybone777 Well, when you’ve got (10) boxes for each rifle, purchased over the last 20-30 years, price is settled. However, your exactly right when starting from square one.
@@bradleytyrrell4417 Fantastic. I always laugh when guys talk about how Parker said the 270 showed little gains and therefore improving it is a waste of time. They plainly do not take into account the lack of powder choices Parker had when he said that compared to what we can now play with in the 21st century. The newer powders allow us to tailor to barrel length while giving us much higher velocities with far lower pressures. A charge weight that used to blow primers to achieve a particular velocity doesn’t even throw its shadow on SAAMI maximum today. The modern European powders are superior to US powders in this regard. You can’t argue with higher velocities from lower pressures.
@@michaelshuey1614 well said mate so damn true. When I asked my gunsmith who is very good at ackley improved chamber jobs he headspaces them properly if I can get an improvement on the 270win by rebarreling it to 270ai he said bloody oth if done properly you will always see a gain especially with the powders we have today it took about 2 seconds for my decision to be made and I'll never look back
Holy crap, you touched on the three AI cartridges I’ve considered in the past. The 280 AI & 338/06 AI for sure, but recently came across the 35 Whelen Al. Very interesting topic. I wish you would’ve included a bit more history on the subject. P.O. Ackley was an incredibly interesting man. I conclude there are so many good cartridges, why complicate life with an Ackley Improved cartridge. Although, if I only shot one caliber, I think I’d go that route. Please get your buddy to do the 338/06 AI with you. Once again, it would be a first on TH-cam.
I got to about 7mm Rem Mag velocities with my 23.5" 280AI (about 3200 fps with 139grs Barnes LRX). I was really happy and felt like "Wow, so the hype IS real!". ...Until I went out again on a warmer day with the same load and found that my primers came out on every other shot (new Nosler cases)! Ofc I then quickly pulled all remaining bullets and dropped the load by about 2 grains of powder and now consider that my absolute max load. Now I'm at "down to earth" velocities (somewhere between 280 Rem and 7mmRM). Accuracy is outstanding with almost any load however. Plus, there is no ugly belt and no need of a magnum bolt face. Overall I'm still a fan. Don't try to chase miracle velocities. Carefully work up your loads, check your velocities, watch for pressure signs and stay safe.
This is why I: 1) Find out where I start seeing pressure signs and stay safely below that powder charge. 2) Use the Hodgdon Extreme Powders and Enduron Powders as much as I can. (not always possible obviously)
Thank you for more common sense... it's rare in TH-cam channels these days. I personally think the 30.06 and the 35 Whelen are fine the way they were designed. I've never tried the 338/06 but have always wanted to try something like a .416/35 and see what you get. Yes, I really think the .35 is the sweet spot for large game...please continue to bring us videos with your style of common sense, it is sorely needed in today's world.
I've been shooting, hunting and reloading for almost four decades now. My first centrefire rifle was in .270 Win. I added .300 Win Mag, .243 Win. .22-250 Rem, .222 Rem and a few more. My big boomer is a .375 H&H. I have yet to see the need to go for anything 'Ackley Improved'. I understand that a lot of people like to tinker, adjust, alter and generally muck around with various things including rifle cartridges. Fair enough. Go for it if it floats your boat. I'm happy with the performance, accuracy and brass life of the standard cartridges I have. At the range or in the field, I've yet to be disappointed in the results I'm getting. After four firings I anneal and trim. I don't think I've had to toss out more than a handful of cases before I reach about twenty firings. I have one batch of .222 brass that is up to twenty-six firings. With the hundreds of standard rifle cartridges over the past one hundred years and more arriving weekly, most of which are still going strong, not to mention a few thousand or more wildcats, AI cartridges seem to me to be 'yet another cartridge for the sake of being yet another cartridge'.
Many people switch favorite cartridges; and there are many who are devoted to cartridges thru out their life. .280AI is a great cartridge that is very efficient, mild recoil, and is sufficient for harvesting most all animals in North America. Thanks
Yes,please do a 338/06 video.I am greatly interested in this round,because it pretty much matches the .318 Wesley Richards,and I want to build a modern stalking rifle for Africa.
Modern powders has changed AI's like Superformance in the 6 Remington AI. The 25-06 AI is one of my favorite AI's. I have 2 25-06 AI'S 1 270 AI, 2 6 remington AI's, 3 6.5-06 AI's. Love them.
Have 6.5x06 thought of a replacement w a a i version love the cartridge Yotes to elk Lots of bullets I already have still my gunsmiths are limited here ?
I couldn't agree with you more!! My main hunting rifles have been AI cartridges for the past 10-11 years. My experience mirrors yours. I now tell all my friends that ask about them, that the main reason for an AI cartridge is brass life and not having to trim cases! I would really like for you to bring your 338-06 AI companion on the show. For the past 5 years my main hunting rifle has been a 338-06 AI. I don't get tremendous velocity gains, but I am able to load to what I refer to as "book" velocities. "Book" velocity is what I say when I can actually match reloading manuals both in velocity and accuracy for the parent, unimproved cartridge. And as I'm sure you're well aware, the 338-06 doesn't need much improvement. It's an exceptional cartridge in it's own right. John Barsness mentions Improved cartridges and pressures in his Gun Gack series of books. I'd caution your 30-06 AI friend about his loads. 3000 fps with a 180 grain bullet is a tremendous jump in velocity compared to the gain in case capacity of a 30-06 AI case. As you know, velocity follows pressure, I think he may stuffing too much powder in that case. I'm not going to plagiarize Barsness and try and recite it here, but I'd recommend your friend pick up the Gun Gack series and read about it. He may just back off a bit.
What Mr. Barsness fails to mention, is how the change in case capacity lets you move a step in the powder burn-rate chart. Many powders in the slower range achieve higher velocity without going over max pressure. They do this not by increasing pressure, but but increasing the "pressure duration" and having better bulk density as a physical property of the powder itself. Several of the Vihta Vouri and Aliant powders allow this. But some extra case volume is needed to do this, and several A.I. versions allow the reloader to safely take that step. Velocity only follows pressure when you are comparing the same powder. If I load that same 30-06 with a 180gr bullet to 60K PSI with H4198, I might get 2450 fps; If I use H4831sc with the same bullet, I'll be closer to 2850fps at 60k PSI. So, gun writer nonsense aside, understanding powder properties and the importance of the "Pressure Duration" is more important than "Peak Pressure" when achieving velocity in a rifle barrel. This is why I preach the importance of powder selection to match the case capacity and bullet weight in my reloading videos.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 that's still a lot of gains in velocity for a small increase in case capacity. I'd love to see some experimentation on that!! Anyhow, thank you for taking the time to reply!
Agreed on so many points. Wildcats went from drivers of innovation to enthusiasts' toys since the ballistics pie has been sliced so thin. You‘re also spot on that how useful an improved cartridge is completely depends on the parent cartridge. The .257 Roberts AI is one of the bigger winners of the improved case…because Remington spec‘d it at anemic pressures. Still want one, though. Also, a video on the .338-06 with your buddy would be fantastic. A cartridge very similar to the .338-06 based on the .280 - the 8.5x63 - has gained some traction in Germany.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I agree! That's faster than I can push it myself. Sorry about that. I can push it 3,150 fps using RL 26 running 61,000+ psi. However, I normally run it at 3,050 fps in an accuracy node around the 54,000 psi range. That's still considerable. Still not necessary. Necessity is driven by the desired result. The standard 257 Roberts is more than enough for deer. Is improving the 257 Roberts necessary? No. Is it fun to tinker with? Heck ya.
Great video. Lots of tall tails and legends about the AI's. I do like AI's and they have a place, in my case I love my 223AI it gives just enough case capacity to run 75+ gr bullets without playing the high pressure game to get a useful velocity, such as running 3k fps with 75gr eld and still having rounded primers. The biggest benefit like you said is case life, I have a batch of brass that has 10 reloads and I only have had to trim them once since I fire formed them.
I agree/appreciate you busting the myth of massive velocity gains - I have multiple .35WAI - the bottom line was I get better brass endurance, and i can always use factory ammo if I have to. Americans are always chasing FPS. Kevin Robertson covers a great argument for actually moderating your velocity to improve the terminal effect of the projectile on game in his Most Dangerous book. Thanks for your work on this stuff.
Good video - I have a 14" Contender in .30-30 A.I. and I thought there'd be a velocity advantage but that was insignificant. The real advantage is that the case set-back is nil, with no taper to the case.
I was loaned a book on AI cartridges, I had a slowpoke Winchester MDL 70 rifle in 30-06, I got the reamer the gunsmith went to transforming the chamber to AI 30-06. Fire forming is done now. Load her up and head to the range with chronograph in hand; not looking for much velocity increase 100 FPS; I followed what's in the book starting loads, and the max load. Well, I with about 1.5/2 grains increase the chronograph reading with a 180 grains bullet @2925fps. I stepped up a little more powder @2.5 pressure signs back down to 2 grains or slightly lower velocity @2900fps final load; Two different choreograph were used. Pact chronograph and Shooting Chrony. I used a 110 grains bullet used for the M1 Carbine rifle for fire forming.
Really appreciate these videos. I just picked up a bunch of books on Africa, African Hunts and African rifles based on a video of yours I watched a little while back. I am looking at picking up some Elmer Kieth and PO Ackley books as well. Just have to find them reasonably priced!
Great video! I love wildcat/improved cartriges and have rifles chambered in a variety of them. As far as fireforming virgin brass goes, not all of them can be formed that way. Ackley mentioned that the .25-35 Winchester Ackley Improved cannot be reliably formed in that way due to cases rupturing at the shoulder. I have experienced this in forming brass for my Martini Cadet rifle in .25-35 Improved. I simply run .30-30 Winchester brass through my .25 calibre neck sizer until it just chambers, forming a false shoulder. I do the same thing for forming my .30 Gibbs out of .35 Whelen brass. My .257 Roberts Ackley Improved and .30-40 Krag Ackley Improved fireform factory brass perfectly, as does my .300 H&H magnum Ackley Improved with .300 Weatherby brass.
Great information. I hand a buddy of mine who’s an excellent gunsmith build me a .22-6mm Ackely Improved. After listening to you, I got some fire formed bass and compared to to loaded unfired brass, and it appears ever so slightly longer in the neck to shoulder length. So thank you for sharing all this information with me. Before building my gun, my friend said it should extend case life and maybe coax a little more speed out of it. He also built it with a 30” barrel.
Interesting stuff. I've heard of these AI rounds, but never looked into them. My .270 Win and 30-30 was all I ever needed for my close range hunting. Thanks DD.
Theres nothing walking in the lower 48 that cant be cleanly killed with those rifles. And that 270, while often overlooked in todays world of high bc bullets. Will stomp on damm near all the short action wonders. And flat out hang with a 7 mag for further than we should be shooting anyway.
Met PO Ackley in 1984. He said the 250 Savage Imp gained more velocity then any other of his improved rounds. He was disappointed in the 30-06 Imp and really liked the 280 Remington standard cartridge.
I had a 257 ai barrel put on a old push feed Winchester action by er Shaw and that rifle will shoot any bullet from 110 to 117 gns with the same powder load to the same place. I have never had another rifle that would do that. It will shoot 3/4in. Group with a 110 gn. Acubond 117 gn.game king and 115 gn. Partition. Always just loaded reg.257 rob. Brass to fire form then cases last forever. Regular 257 factory loads are loaded down so to get the most out of it you have to reload anyway so the improved is not a big deal. I think the 40% shoulder and minimum makes for a more even burn of the powder.all you have to do is look at all the new cartridges in the last 15 years they all have min.taper and sharp shoulders.there most be something to it. Love the videos desert dog. Stay safe and live free
I've been shooting the 8mm 06 AI for a couple decades now. It's a great round but I doubt I would ever recommend it to anyone due to it being a double wildcat. Truly, I think id steer them away from AI all together but certainly towards a standard parent cartridge if they insist. I think your over all assessment of AI is spot on.
I think you are right about the standard .30-'06 feeding nice... not just with regards to Ackley sharp shoulders, but I think the length of it is actually a good thing too. The WSM and WSSM cartridges look cool but at some point you get so short that it pops free from the feed lips before the front of the cartridge is deep enough into the chamber for certain feeding... especially in a front-locking bolt action. I can remember in my 20's being very enthused about the Ackley sharp shoulder, but I'm much less so now. Nowadays my ideal cartridge shape is more like the 6.5x55 or the .250 Savage... a fairly sharp shoulder but not too extreme, and retaining considerable body taper. I'm super skeptical of Ackley's theories on near-zero body taper helping to hold back breech thrust. In my mind, the pressure is pushing the case walls against the chamber walls at a 90 degree angle to the walls, no matter if the chamber walls are tapered or parallel -- that is just how gas pressure works. There is no "watermelon seed effect." And even if there was, I'm not trusting my face to a thin ring of brass (of variable work hardening and variable fatigue state) that I think is doing something that the steel locking lugs of my action should already be doing. One area where there is room for improved cartridges might be in falling-block single shot rifles, where a rimmed cartridge is traditional and often required mechanically. We just don't have very good modern rimmed cartridges to choose from, and often the improving process can be dramatic on rimmed rounds such as .25/35, since you are free to scoot the shoulder forward. I do have a couple improved chambering reamers I hope to play around with after I retire in another year or so. One is .35 Whelen AI. I suppose you are right that the case volume difference is really minor, and no I don't think headspace is a problem with the factory version, but I just like the looks of it. Hopefully it will feed smoothly with the reduced body taper. I don't expect any feed hitches from such a small shoulder, sharp or not. Another one I picked up cheap (along with a sizing die reamer) on eBay is .35 Remington AI. It's pretty crazy, I'm not sure if Ackley himself ever went there, to be honest. I think I'll be forming rimmed cases from .30/40 Krag brass to create a whole new wildcat, but I can actually see some practicality for the rimless chambering in a strong bolt action. You could load it up much hotter than factory ammo with no danger of your improved ammo ever drifting away and blowing up one of the older semi-auto or lever action guns, yet be able to fire factory ammo in a pinch your own gun. As a professional machinist my first boss used to always say "Don't set a trap for the next guy" so making the hot ammo so it can never be fired in a standard chamber makes sense to me. The performance advantage in that case would not so much be from increased case volume, or anything about the "improved" shape, but just from the freedom to jack up pressures with a free conscience.
My 338-06 A I runs very close to the win . Mag. Maybe fifteen feet per second behind, with about twenty percent less powder and recoil. Brass life is great. David Gentry of Belgrade Montana built mine and I get 1/2” groups consistently. Douglas AA stainless , 23” length. Rifle weighs 6.7 lbs with 2-8 leupold on. Awesome rifle for ALL North American big game.
I enjoyed this video because it encapsulated a lot of pieces of information I’ve picked up over the years from various sources but never saw consolidated in one place. It also affirmed some of the beliefs I’ve come to secretly hold about various cartridges, AI conversions, and fatuous claims by users, reloaders, TH-camrs, and writers. It may not settle the arguments, but at least now I don’t feel so much like a secret heretic.
Only under bore cartridges benifits from improving by blowing out the case. An example would be the 250 Savage. The 22-250 would not be much of an improvement. Read PO Ackley's book . He considered the 270 Winchester slightly over bore. He did much testing by rechambering the same barrel with larger and larger case capacity cartriges until there was very little velocity gain. An example would be the 280 Remington being about maximum case capacity for the 7mm bore. A 338 Winchester magnum case necked down to 30 caliber would be about the max case capacity for 30 caliber bore. My experience with the 6mm Remington Ackley and case stretch was little to no case strech. Brass still flows forward because brass cases thicken at the junction of case neck and shoulder.
Spot on info there. I primarily use AI on varmint cartridges with light bullets. That is where I get the bigger advantage of velocity increase is with light bullets. I did a 270 necked down to 243 with a finished neck of .246. A snug fit on the bolt close for fireforming with 70gr btips and 1/2 groups. Better groups fireforming. After formed, about a 3/4 inch group. Hellacious velocities. Death ray for a groundhog. Barrel life a little short though....ha wanted to just have a larger 220 Swifter.
In his book Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders, vol. 1, he said that the .30-40 Ackley Improved was, to quote, "one of the best Improved cartridges". I have a Winchester P14 sporter in .30-40 Krag Ackley Improved and I love it.
The .260 AI is perhaps the perfect combination of efficiency and velocity. I can run a 139 grain Lapua Scenar at just a tad over 3000fps with no pressure signs.
*The ONLY ream only with NO barrel setback Ackley Improvement conversion I am aware of would be the 30-30 Ackley Improved. So, the myth of the 'REAM ONLY Conversion' may be a reality or myth depending on which cartridge we are considering.*
Ackley was using old surplus 50-cal military powder (H570). Image if you could revisit the 22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer with a healthy charge of modern Reloder 33 or H50!!!!!
Hey DD, I’m a reloader. I keep a load data notebook for each of my rifles. I’m not totally happy with it though. Seems like a hodge-podge of loads that didn’t work out with a few great ones. How to you keep load records? Have any tips to keep it all organized?
I have been loading shells for years and are totally confident.Using a couple of wildcats that just weren't around back then.I'm not trying to justify but a fantastic learning experience. The one cartridge I have always considered is the 22-250 AI.For the reasons you have stated I think it is a good way to go.Because I want to build a rifle with a 1/8 twist barrel for 75-80 gr. bullets for long range shooting.I can get some extra velocity.The question is do I really need any more velocity?The books say 3300 fps in the standard version.I do like the extra case life but don't like the shorter barrel life with this cartridge.I am still sitting on the fence so in the meantime I'll keep shooting my .375-08. You did a great job with the pros and cons for somebody considering a type of wildcat that can be used with factory loads.
I have a handful of Ackley Improved cartridges 1- 280 AI is great with 160 gr Nosler Accubond - elk deer and antelope have all fallen victim to this combo, 250 -3000 AI is a great one for deer, antelope, feral hogs ect- Sierra uses this cartridge to test accuracy of it 25 caliber bullets, 22-250 Rem AI with a 1-7 twist is great for deer and hogs and finally our 260 Rem AI with 1-8 twist is a hammer with 129gr and 142gr Nosler Accubond LR's- it has been great for antelope,deer and feral hogs. Take you pick and add more, just bought a 6,5-06 AI
If you improve a cartridge. And load to the same velocity as the parent. A huge plus is the increase in accurate barrel life. And brass life increases significantly. I dont have raw data to compare. But the logic is sound. More capacity with the same velocity means it must have lower pressure as long as the same powder is being used. Not charge wieght. Just type of powder. And as we all know. Pressure and heat are what really burn up the throats. Friction only contributes a tiny fraction of wear.
You are absolutely correct about the velocity gains with the AI cartridges. Case life and feeding and extraction are the most beneficial points to the rounds. P.O.Ackley himself in his books says that overbore cartridges gain less than under bore cartridges and really efficient cases gain most when velocity is considered.
Doesn’t your buddy have all the same perks you mentioned on a standard 30-06 with the capability to fire that cartridge as well? Plus the advantage of stepping up to the improved?
Are all "AI" cartridges truly Ackley's work? For instance, did he improve the 7mm-08? There are a lot out there and I wonder if some are other folks applying Ackley's recipe to newer cartridges. I was working on a modified cartridge and was toying with the idea of the 40 degree shoulder and removed taper scheme, but opted not to for the cost of customer die. I more over PRC'ed it by pulling the bullet out of the case and reducing the diameter of the freebore slightly.
The 7mm-08 "A.I." was never mentioned in his books. He also mentioned that the .308 class of cartridges were already engineered well enough that improving them was virtually redundant.
I vote yes for a 338-06AI vid. Also, I was doing some ballistics calcs a few days ago comparing various cartridges and was in disbelief when I looked at Nosler's specs for their Trophy Grade ammo. They list 140gr AB in 280AI at 3200fps MV while exact same bullet in 7 rem mag is 3125fps and same weight bullet in 270 wsm is 3100 fps MV. Using these numbers, 280 AI beats 7mm mag and 270short mag in all categories at all distances shooting nosler 140 factory ammo. Seems too good to be true. Am I missing something? Would love to hear your thoughts on this DD.
Don't base any judgements on factory ammo. 1) Most factory ammo doesn't perform as advertised, and 2) the powder blend and charge-weight they use for the load has the biggest impact on velocity, and 3) many of the max velocity factory loads shoot like crap because the powder favors velocity over consistency (like Superformance).
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 okay thanks. I don't put a whole lot of faith in the accuracy of factory ammo specs but I thought since I was comparing the same brand of ammo using data from the same source that they would all equally underperform by about the same margin and that would cancel out the factory fudge factor.
After 3 years, I finally put together my 6.5x55 AI. That crush-fit ain't no joke! My gunsmith told me it would be hard to chamber virgin brass, but damn it wasn't what I expected! 😆
Update: Crush fit isn't bad. What I was feeling was the bullet to neck tension friction. I seat my bullets very long to jam it into the lands. With a neck tension of .261" I can chamber very easy. With .260" it's significantly harder. I really have to use a lot of effort to push the projectile into the case.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I had to with my 6.5x55 swede I had it reamed out to Bob jourdan AI 40 degree shoulder wouldn’t feed through standard feed ramp because of the taper of the 6.5 swede Basically now a 6.5-284 shoots well thanks for the great videos ,from NZ
I always tried to reload for best accuracy an not the highest velocity. All to frequently the highest velocity gives some of the worst accuracy. As a bit of a post script, I had usually considered the 300 Win Mag as being essentially the 30-06 A. I. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I was thinking that with Ackley improved, no mater what caliber, will extend brass life. And as a re-loader, it will save time and brass. Don't you think so?
🤠 So, Desert Dog, could you please tell me which Major Manufacturer (Besides Nosler) are making Brass and Ammunition for the Nosler Sammi Specification cartridges and which ones for the original Ackley cartridges? And, was their any difference in powder capacity between the two designs (or was it just a neck length, not shoulder, variation)? 🤷♂️
I don't know. I've never purchased AI brass (I always fireform my own); and AFAIK, commercial brass is only made for one cartridge (280AI, which I stated in the video I no longer load). Also as stated in this video, I'm not sure that the 280AI and 280AI-SAAMI are different or the same (hence the controversy). I do know that chambers seem to be all over the place; even among newer so-called SAAMI spec 280AI's. If you took anything away from this video, it should be to stay away from AI conversions unless the rifle was done by a good Smith that you trust 100%. Never buy a used AI rifle.
🤠 Desert Dog, thank you for responding to my question(s)! 🤗 After first commenting on your video a few days earlier, I did a little more research on this cartridge and found several good articles on it! 🤗 One of which was actually written by Ron Spomer - who owns a 280 AI! 🤕 Their is a difference and he explains how it came about - that Weatherby used the information from their cartridge SAMMI Spec Design, from Remington! 😥 Nothing like taking your "Advice" from a company that went bankrupt! 🤣 I am surprised that SAMMI didn't question it, let alone approved it! 😱 The waters here are still muddy here to me! 🤷♂️ It seems to be a cartridge growing in popularity and I wanted to understand the "Truth" on it! 🧐 Thanks again!👍
I have wondered if certain characteristics of parent cartridges tend to make the AI versions have issues, largely with feeding. My thinking is that a relatively short case that also has a relatively large amount of diameter reduction at the shoulder (and especially one with a relatively short amount of bullet protruding from the case) might have a harder time going smoothly into the chamber. Maybe something like the 22-250 AI?
🤠 Thank you for addressing this subject matter!👍Two years ago, when I was looking to buy a new rifle, one of the cartridges I was considering was a 280 AI! 🤔 Also in the mix was the 300wsm, 6.5 prc, 7mm-08 Remington, and the 308 Winchester! 🤗 I already had a 30-06 Springfield (pre-64 model 70 Winchester) and a 270 Winchester (Sako model 75), so I was contemplating the possibility of getting something different? 🙄 But, once I started looking into the AI, I was spooked away! 😬 Nosler was chambering the Rifle, as was our Montana Based Company Kimber, but Horneday issued a warning on "all" AI cartridges! 😋 Because these companies are in competition with each other (and all reputable), I decided that this conflict information required further investigation? 🧐 To my surprise, as you eluded to, the "waters" only got muddier! 🙃 Various sources that I trusted, started giving me controversial opinions on the subject! 🤯 Then, throw in the controversy among rifle chamberings among different rifle manufactures, botched gunsmithing jobs, and several horror stories on damaged chambers - I decided it just wasn't worth the risk/ concerns (headache)! 😫 The 280 AI, balistically, is a fine cartridge (no doubt)! 😯 But, when I started contemplating it further and the rifles I would like to own, I decided on a Sako Model 85 in the Finlight II! 😛 The Rifle was stainless, cetakoted, fluted barrel, had an adjustable cheak piece, controlled round feed, strong carbon fiber bedded stock, metal detachable magazine, smooth action, etc...a very durable and weather resistant rifle! 😍 Just what I was looking for and had most of the cartridges that I was interested in! 😁 Since I already have owned several, no one needed to sell me on the accuracy of a Sako rifles (superb)! 😃 After careful contemplation, I bought my self another 270 Winchester and have no regrets! 😊 With more good bullet choices continuing to come out, the 270 caliber is better than ever! 😉 You and I think alot alike on "acceptable shooting distances" and the "practicality" of the 30-06/270 case design! 💁♂️ But the older I get, the more a light weight rifle appeals to me (this one is 6 1/4 pounds and just a hair over 7 pounds with my compact and very durable metal 3×9 Ziess scope/with Butler creek scope caps and sling/swivel/and scope rings) and it is chambered in a "sensible" mild recoiling cartridge! 🕵️♂️ I have No Regrets on my gun and caliber choices either! 😎
I’ve known these little facts for a long time . The gains are minimal at best with AI cartridges. I shoot a .280 Remington and have no desire to improve upon its performance, it does everything I need it to do out to 400 yards , including harvesting elk . I have recently learned about the new Weatherby .338 RPM , and I will have to study up a bit more on this one , but just curious if it is just another attempt to reinvent the wheel so to speak .. another trending fast cartridge for the ages , or perhaps something that will prove to be a true performer over the .338/06 AI and Ruger .338 RCM and the likes of .338 win Mag . Curious about your thoughts on that .
You forgot to throw in the 338 Federal too, lol. I honestly think the 338 market is saturated right now (like the 6.5 market is). 338 is also a "niche" medium-bore caliber that's a little too much for average game and a little too little for dangerous critters. The paper punchers love the 338 Lapua, and the hunters love the 338 Win Mag. Crusty old guys think the 338-06 is more practical. I don't think the thought process is going to change in the very small 338 market.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I agree with you on everything you just said . And I still hold dearly to my .280 Remington for all practical hunting purposes, I just couldn’t justify any significant gains going to an AI .
To each is own. All my rifles in the safe are Ackley's. And seeing the gains of the smaller packages.. Like 20-223 A, 6mmBR A, 250 savage A I can't see why the 40° shoulder would be beneficial to all case's.. Also why be like the rest?.. Again to each is own. 257 Bob ackley is to be one of the best Ackley's ever.
One of the biggest reasons that was not mentioned for AI cartridges was a straight taper and increased shoulder angle which was designed for 2 things. Powder column and burn rate . Centering the cartridge in the chamber. Read history and understand.
I failed to understand how straightening the case wall or putting a 40° shoulder would Center itself any better than a highly tapered case with a smaller shoulder angle they both have the ability to Center themselves just fine one is not superior to the other for centering a cartridge in the chamber. The tapered case is easier to remove from the chamber after the brass has been fired the 40° shoulder blows out and doesn't shrink back like a more tapered shoulder and has a tendency to stick in the chamber after being fired
The shoulder was for burn rate. I'm just stating what was said to be the reasons. I'm just a reloader that has read the reasons stated by the engineers.
I have an old sporterized 1903 Springfield, I suspect it doesn't have a proper chamber like P.O. recommended. So yes, I have had case head separations until I figured out the problem.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 once I figured out the problem, I knew how to solve with reloading procedures. Not an issue anymore, but ironically the only thing I use that rifle for is shooting cast bullets. Fabulously accurate at about 1750fps. 30-06ai fyi.
250fps isn’t unattainable with a good powder. H1000 is a good choice that might get that. The improvement is efficiency. Hit 7mag speed with a lot less powder
I want to launch a projectile with a 0.6 bc at 3000 fps out of a short action with a non-magnum bolt face and a barrel that's no longer than 26". I want a 6.5 to keep the recoil down, and a want good brass life with minimal brass maintenance. I'm not aware of a factory cartridge that meets these requirements, but a 260 AI checks all the boxes and can be formed with small primer brass to boot.
Oh boy do I wish I saw this video before my foray into the AI cartridges. The velocity myth is what bit me. I thought one could always add another 1.5-2gr of powder in the AI formed case. Well, I had two dangerous over pressure results that learnt me the hard way on this lesson. I can say the .243AI gave another 150fps safely. The 708AI gives only 50fps more safely. Good point on the feeding aspect. Now my AI fired brass doesn't feed good out of my AICS magazines...
I am going to build one on a old Remington 721 b that I got at a pawn shop and it was a 30-06 and didn’t shoot good so I took a bore scope to after several tricks didn’t work and the chamber was not cut inline with the bore so I have ordered a pre treaded barrel already crown and short chambered for the 280 AI I think it will be a fun project
I have a 280AI Kimber. It shoots real well, but I have only used AI factory brass in it so far. I love my 7 mm Mauser but the brass seems to constantly stretch and I hate trimming. I've sent one out to be turned into a 7 Mauser AI just to avoid trimming. It should give 280 Rem performance which is more than enough for the ranges I hunt.
@@paulhazel5754 My 7mm & 8mm Mauser, I neck size only. Well, all my bottleneck cartridges I neck size! I have no chambering issues at all. Lee Precision Dies.
@@paulhazel5754 right you are , and full length resizing sets the brass back to factory spec's not what your actual chamber is at . Once a round has been shot in your gun it is fireformed to your specific guns chamber , and neck sizing should be all you need for a couple of loadings ( unless you load HOT ) . By sizing full length you make the round OK to shoot in any gun of the same caliber but that sets the shoulder slightly and keeps making the neck longer slightly .
6.5 x06 has 2 different specs .270 brass and regular 06 lengths I drive 130 s to 3 k which is plenty and 140 s w rl 25/26 to 2950 ish I like the 6.5 x06 a true wildcat that’s still in the books as a wildcat w recipes
there is no "might" about it, we have 2 different 280 AI designs. The 280 AI RCBS 40 degree which followed the PO Ackley design and the 280 AI Nosler spec which moved the headspace by 0.014"
Don't forget brass quality makes a difference on performance gains. Soft brass will have higher pressures than good high quality harder brass like lapua or adg, peterson and alpha or rws. I have witnessed this on pressure test barrels, and barrel quality and hardness do make a difference also.
This is one of the last hunting/shooting channels with sound advice and ethics. Please don't ever change DDO!
🤠 To me what is matters more than someone just repeating what they have read from their "Cartridges of the World" book! Even though I like to talk about all things related to hunting! When were talking "hunting", why would I want to take advice from someone that has no "ethics" or "experience"? One of the most popular channels, I will leave them unnamed (a scope company), has their "resident" gun lover (Ryan) on talking about elk hunting! I do like the kid, and their are some good topics discussed, but...then he confesses that he has never even shot an elk! 🤯 Now, why would I want to take hunting advice on elk hunting from someone who has never shot one, as to which caliber I should use for such hunting (I wouldn't)? 🤣 Most of these U-Tubers are only out to make some money and pick up sponsors - by promoting their products! Not so here! This channel is about sound advice (one of the very few) and discussions about real questions people have struggles with! None of us has all the answers, but if we share what we have learned, then others won't need to make the same mistakes or waste time reinventing the wheel! Which leaves more time for hunting and shooting, which is what we love to do the most! 😁 GREAT CHANNEL!!! 🤗
Finally someone recognizes the case life benefit!! Bravo!!! I've been using the same 200 brass mostly for competition since 2010. I have to anneal every few loadings but that's it. I do see a big increase in velocity but I built my gun as an ackley from the start up with 27-in barrel.
By far the most intelligent discussion on this topic I’ve came across. I would also really appreciate a video on the 338/06AI. Thanks for posting this.
Excellent cartridge! I’d like to see that too.
I have two boxes of factory 338/06 if anyone is interested
@@garylewis6631 who wouldn't be
@@joshhorn5131 I've always wanted a .338-06, never could find one for sale.
Now I'm 65, so I guess I'll just continue on with what I've got. DDO passes on GOOD Information,
and I'm glad I found it when I did. You all have a Good Day!
I have an handloaded for several AI cartridges. As you have said, some are more beneficial than others as far as velocity gains. Two of my favorites that I use for hunting are the 280AI and 375 H&H AI. I can get 7mm Rem Mag ballistics in a lightweight non-magnum action (Kimber) with the 280AI. And with the 375 H&H AI the gain in case capacity is around 10 grains H2O. I am pushing a 300 grain Nosler at 2800+ FPS and am approaching 375 Remington Ultra Mag velocities with much less powder and recoil. Another favorite is the 6mm-06 AI but thats sort of a double wildcat. The 257 Robert’s AI approaches 25-06 velocity but there isn’t much point since 25-06 Chambered rifles are quite common.
My Father had a 30/06 AI improved built in late 1970's. He reloaded 180 and 200 grain Partions and Inter-lock. This was before "Most" Bonded bullets and no Mono Bullets. He did see more 300 H&H types of velocities back in 1980's. Back then he was pushing a 180 bullet at 2950/2970 and 200 grain at around 2830/2850. I have his old notes and loads. He passed on in 2003. Not bad for the times but not 300 fps over 06. 150 fps was about normal. My Brother in Law still uses the rifle and uses some 180 Accubond in old loads. It shoots them about like partition did 40 years ago 3/4 or so MOA. It hammers Deer/Antalope, he has not gotten a Elk tag yet, but it would be bad medicine for Elk too. Sure new powders might give you a little more today. But if its not broke dont try to fix it.
Thank you for the solid information on poorly cut A.I. chambers. I’ve had my share for sure.
My 270 A.I. has a PacNor 1:8 twist for the 170 grain Berger Hunter Hybrids. I can push them at 2,900 fps which is also an accuracy node at mid 50’s pressures. Very manageable and quite adequate for long range plinking with the atmospheric BC which that bullet offers.
I hunt with it sure. Is it my preferred whitetail rifle and cartridge? Hardly. My preferred deer rifles are custom Sako 85’s in standard 270 win and 8x57 Mauser which I can load for but have no need to do so. When factory ammo produces 1/2” five shot groups what’s handloading gonna gain you besides wasting time?
I grew up idolizing Parker Ackley and still do. It was his two volume set which first taught me about ballistic coefficient and twist rates among other nuggets at the ignorant age of 12. What an icon.
Great video.
6 to 8 dollars a box instead of 35 to 60
@@greybone777 Well, when you’ve got (10) boxes for each rifle, purchased over the last 20-30 years, price is settled. However, your exactly right when starting from square one.
I have a 270ai and it shoots under half moa all day and I'm pushing a 130gr berger at 3315fps and it's a hammer and I haven't had on issue feeding
@@bradleytyrrell4417 Fantastic. I always laugh when guys talk about how Parker said the 270 showed little gains and therefore improving it is a waste of time. They plainly do not take into account the lack of powder choices Parker had when he said that compared to what we can now play with in the 21st century. The newer powders allow us to tailor to barrel length while giving us much higher velocities with far lower pressures. A charge weight that used to blow primers to achieve a particular velocity doesn’t even throw its shadow on SAAMI maximum today.
The modern European powders are superior to US powders in this regard. You can’t argue with higher velocities from lower pressures.
@@michaelshuey1614 well said mate so damn true. When I asked my gunsmith who is very good at ackley improved chamber jobs he headspaces them properly if I can get an improvement on the 270win by rebarreling it to 270ai he said bloody oth if done properly you will always see a gain especially with the powders we have today it took about 2 seconds for my decision to be made and I'll never look back
Great advice and explanation on the crush fit. Heard about it but did not understand the full story from others and Ackley’s own explanation.
Holy crap, you touched on the three AI cartridges I’ve considered in the past. The 280 AI & 338/06 AI for sure, but recently came across the 35 Whelen Al.
Very interesting topic. I wish you would’ve included a bit more history on the subject. P.O. Ackley was an incredibly interesting man.
I conclude there are so many good cartridges, why complicate life with an Ackley Improved cartridge. Although, if I only shot one caliber, I think I’d go that route.
Please get your buddy to do the 338/06 AI with you. Once again, it would be a first on TH-cam.
I got to about 7mm Rem Mag velocities with my 23.5" 280AI (about 3200 fps with 139grs Barnes LRX). I was really happy and felt like "Wow, so the hype IS real!".
...Until I went out again on a warmer day with the same load and found that my primers came out on every other shot (new Nosler cases)!
Ofc I then quickly pulled all remaining bullets and dropped the load by about 2 grains of powder and now consider that my absolute max load.
Now I'm at "down to earth" velocities (somewhere between 280 Rem and 7mmRM).
Accuracy is outstanding with almost any load however.
Plus, there is no ugly belt and no need of a magnum bolt face.
Overall I'm still a fan.
Don't try to chase miracle velocities. Carefully work up your loads, check your velocities, watch for pressure signs and stay safe.
This is why I:
1) Find out where I start seeing pressure signs and stay safely below that powder charge.
2) Use the Hodgdon Extreme Powders and Enduron Powders as much as I can. (not always possible obviously)
280 AI with Hornady ELD-X 150gr does 3,100 fps 24” barrel
Thank you for more common sense... it's rare in TH-cam channels these days. I personally think the 30.06 and the 35 Whelen are fine the way they were designed. I've never tried the 338/06 but have always wanted to try something like a .416/35 and see what you get. Yes, I really think the .35 is the sweet spot for large game...please continue to bring us videos with your style of common sense, it is sorely needed in today's world.
I went 35 Whelen AI and would do it again in a heartbeat. The elimination of case trimming and 50 fps are totally worth the effort.
I've been shooting, hunting and reloading for almost four decades now. My first centrefire rifle was in .270 Win. I added .300 Win Mag, .243 Win. .22-250 Rem, .222 Rem and a few more. My big boomer is a .375 H&H. I have yet to see the need to go for anything 'Ackley Improved'. I understand that a lot of people like to tinker, adjust, alter and generally muck around with various things including rifle cartridges. Fair enough. Go for it if it floats your boat.
I'm happy with the performance, accuracy and brass life of the standard cartridges I have. At the range or in the field, I've yet to be disappointed in the results I'm getting. After four firings I anneal and trim. I don't think I've had to toss out more than a handful of cases before I reach about twenty firings. I have one batch of .222 brass that is up to twenty-six firings.
With the hundreds of standard rifle cartridges over the past one hundred years and more arriving weekly, most of which are still going strong, not to mention a few thousand or more wildcats, AI cartridges seem to me to be 'yet another cartridge for the sake of being yet another cartridge'.
I believe that he stated the same thing.
The 280AI has brought new life to the .280 Remington -- that is a good thing.
Many people switch favorite cartridges; and there are many who are devoted to cartridges thru out their life. .280AI is a great cartridge that is very efficient, mild recoil, and is sufficient for harvesting most all animals in North America. Thanks
Yes,please do a 338/06 video.I am greatly interested in this round,because it pretty much matches the .318 Wesley Richards,and I want to build a modern stalking rifle for Africa.
Modern powders has changed AI's like Superformance in the 6 Remington AI. The 25-06 AI is one of my favorite AI's. I have 2 25-06 AI'S 1 270 AI, 2 6 remington AI's, 3 6.5-06 AI's. Love them.
Have 6.5x06 thought of a replacement w a a i version love the cartridge Yotes to elk Lots of bullets I already have still my gunsmiths are limited here ?
I couldn't agree with you more!! My main hunting rifles have been AI cartridges for the past 10-11 years. My experience mirrors yours. I now tell all my friends that ask about them, that the main reason for an AI cartridge is brass life and not having to trim cases! I would really like for you to bring your 338-06 AI companion on the show. For the past 5 years my main hunting rifle has been a 338-06 AI. I don't get tremendous velocity gains, but I am able to load to what I refer to as "book" velocities. "Book" velocity is what I say when I can actually match reloading manuals both in velocity and accuracy for the parent, unimproved cartridge. And as I'm sure you're well aware, the 338-06 doesn't need much improvement. It's an exceptional cartridge in it's own right. John Barsness mentions Improved cartridges and pressures in his Gun Gack series of books. I'd caution your 30-06 AI friend about his loads. 3000 fps with a 180 grain bullet is a tremendous jump in velocity compared to the gain in case capacity of a 30-06 AI case. As you know, velocity follows pressure, I think he may stuffing too much powder in that case. I'm not going to plagiarize Barsness and try and recite it here, but I'd recommend your friend pick up the Gun Gack series and read about it. He may just back off a bit.
What Mr. Barsness fails to mention, is how the change in case capacity lets you move a step in the powder burn-rate chart. Many powders in the slower range achieve higher velocity without going over max pressure. They do this not by increasing pressure, but but increasing the "pressure duration" and having better bulk density as a physical property of the powder itself. Several of the Vihta Vouri and Aliant powders allow this. But some extra case volume is needed to do this, and several A.I. versions allow the reloader to safely take that step. Velocity only follows pressure when you are comparing the same powder. If I load that same 30-06 with a 180gr bullet to 60K PSI with H4198, I might get 2450 fps; If I use H4831sc with the same bullet, I'll be closer to 2850fps at 60k PSI. So, gun writer nonsense aside, understanding powder properties and the importance of the "Pressure Duration" is more important than "Peak Pressure" when achieving velocity in a rifle barrel. This is why I preach the importance of powder selection to match the case capacity and bullet weight in my reloading videos.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 that's still a lot of gains in velocity for a small increase in case capacity. I'd love to see some experimentation on that!! Anyhow, thank you for taking the time to reply!
Agreed on so many points. Wildcats went from drivers of innovation to enthusiasts' toys since the ballistics pie has been sliced so thin. You‘re also spot on that how useful an improved cartridge is completely depends on the parent cartridge. The .257 Roberts AI is one of the bigger winners of the improved case…because Remington spec‘d it at anemic pressures. Still want one, though. Also, a video on the .338-06 with your buddy would be fantastic. A cartridge very similar to the .338-06 based on the .280 - the 8.5x63 - has gained some traction in Germany.
The "ballistics Pie" has indeed been sliced thin!
My 257 AI pushes a 120 grain 3,200+. That’s considerable. That’s noteworthy. However, I can’t exactly tell you that it’s necessary.
@@michaelshuey1614 That's way more than I have ever seen from a 257 Bob AI. Usually, the 25-06 is a 257AI and the 257 Weatherby is a 25-06 AI.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I agree! That's faster than I can push it myself. Sorry about that. I can push it 3,150 fps using RL 26 running 61,000+ psi. However, I normally run it at 3,050 fps in an accuracy node around the 54,000 psi range. That's still considerable. Still not necessary.
Necessity is driven by the desired result. The standard 257 Roberts is more than enough for deer. Is improving the 257 Roberts necessary? No. Is it fun to tinker with? Heck ya.
Great video. Lots of tall tails and legends about the AI's. I do like AI's and they have a place, in my case I love my 223AI it gives just enough case capacity to run 75+ gr bullets without playing the high pressure game to get a useful velocity, such as running 3k fps with 75gr eld and still having rounded primers. The biggest benefit like you said is case life, I have a batch of brass that has 10 reloads and I only have had to trim them once since I fire formed them.
223 AI is a fantastic caliber maybe my favorite AI round
I agree/appreciate you busting the myth of massive velocity gains - I have multiple .35WAI - the bottom line was I get better brass endurance, and i can always use factory ammo if I have to. Americans are always chasing FPS. Kevin Robertson covers a great argument for actually moderating your velocity to improve the terminal effect of the projectile on game in his Most Dangerous book. Thanks for your work on this stuff.
Good video - I have a 14" Contender in .30-30 A.I. and I thought there'd be a velocity advantage but that was insignificant.
The real advantage is that the case set-back is nil, with no taper to the case.
I was loaned a book on AI cartridges, I had a slowpoke Winchester MDL 70 rifle in 30-06, I got the reamer the gunsmith went to transforming the chamber to AI 30-06. Fire forming is done now. Load her up and head to the range with chronograph in hand; not looking for much velocity increase 100 FPS; I followed what's in the book starting loads, and the max load. Well, I with about 1.5/2 grains increase the chronograph reading with a 180 grains bullet @2925fps. I stepped up a little more powder @2.5 pressure signs back down to 2 grains or slightly lower velocity @2900fps final load; Two different choreograph were used. Pact chronograph and Shooting Chrony. I used a 110 grains bullet used for the M1 Carbine rifle for fire forming.
Thank you for sharing.
I have my heart set on a .260 Rem A.I. alternate possibilities are .277 Fury or 7mm-08.
I've been thinking about AIng my 30-06 but I didn't think about rougher feeding, i do like my smooth Patriot action.
Really appreciate these videos. I just picked up a bunch of books on Africa, African Hunts and African rifles based on a video of yours I watched a little while back. I am looking at picking up some Elmer Kieth and PO Ackley books as well. Just have to find them reasonably priced!
The lack of trimming is why I went with several Ackley cartridges. My 22-250 AI reduced a lot of trimming with less brass lost.
Great video! I love wildcat/improved cartriges and have rifles chambered in a variety of them. As far as fireforming virgin brass goes, not all of them can be formed that way. Ackley mentioned that the .25-35 Winchester Ackley Improved cannot be reliably formed in that way due to cases rupturing at the shoulder. I have experienced this in forming brass for my Martini Cadet rifle in .25-35 Improved. I simply run .30-30 Winchester brass through my .25 calibre neck sizer until it just chambers, forming a false shoulder. I do the same thing for forming my .30 Gibbs out of .35 Whelen brass. My .257 Roberts Ackley Improved and .30-40 Krag Ackley Improved fireform factory brass perfectly, as does my .300 H&H magnum Ackley Improved with .300 Weatherby brass.
Great information. I hand a buddy of mine who’s an excellent gunsmith build me a .22-6mm Ackely Improved. After listening to you, I got some fire formed bass and compared to to loaded unfired brass, and it appears ever so slightly longer in the neck to shoulder length. So thank you for sharing all this information with me. Before building my gun, my friend said it should extend case life and maybe coax a little more speed out of it. He also built it with a 30” barrel.
Interesting stuff. I've heard of these AI rounds, but never looked into them. My .270 Win and 30-30 was all I ever needed for my close range hunting. Thanks DD.
Theres nothing walking in the lower 48 that cant be cleanly killed with those rifles. And that 270, while often overlooked in todays world of high bc bullets. Will stomp on damm near all the short action wonders. And flat out hang with a 7 mag for further than we should be shooting anyway.
@@sancharino4672 Hits like Thor's Hammer too in my experience. I've never been a latest and greatest wizbang guy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Met PO Ackley in 1984. He said the 250 Savage Imp gained more velocity then any other of his improved rounds. He was disappointed in the 30-06 Imp and really liked the 280 Remington standard cartridge.
Great video! Im currently getting my 30-06 rebored to 338-06 so id be greatful to learn more about it for someone with lots of hands on experience.
I had a 257 ai barrel put on a old push feed Winchester action by er Shaw and that rifle will shoot any bullet from 110 to 117 gns with the same powder load to the same place. I have never had another rifle that would do that. It will shoot 3/4in. Group with a 110 gn. Acubond 117 gn.game king and 115 gn. Partition. Always just loaded reg.257 rob. Brass to fire form then cases last forever. Regular 257 factory loads are loaded down so to get the most out of it you have to reload anyway so the improved is not a big deal. I think the 40% shoulder and minimum makes for a more even burn of the powder.all you have to do is look at all the new cartridges in the last 15 years they all have min.taper and sharp shoulders.there most be something to it. Love the videos desert dog. Stay safe and live free
This was a very informative video. I was especially interested to hear your thoughts on the 30-06 AI.
I've been shooting the 8mm 06 AI for a couple decades now. It's a great round but I doubt I would ever recommend it to anyone due to it being a double wildcat. Truly, I think id steer them away from AI all together but certainly towards a standard parent cartridge if they insist. I think your over all assessment of AI is spot on.
I think you are right about the standard .30-'06 feeding nice... not just with regards to Ackley sharp shoulders, but I think the length of it is actually a good thing too. The WSM and WSSM cartridges look cool but at some point you get so short that it pops free from the feed lips before the front of the cartridge is deep enough into the chamber for certain feeding... especially in a front-locking bolt action. I can remember in my 20's being very enthused about the Ackley sharp shoulder, but I'm much less so now. Nowadays my ideal cartridge shape is more like the 6.5x55 or the .250 Savage... a fairly sharp shoulder but not too extreme, and retaining considerable body taper.
I'm super skeptical of Ackley's theories on near-zero body taper helping to hold back breech thrust. In my mind, the pressure is pushing the case walls against the chamber walls at a 90 degree angle to the walls, no matter if the chamber walls are tapered or parallel -- that is just how gas pressure works. There is no "watermelon seed effect." And even if there was, I'm not trusting my face to a thin ring of brass (of variable work hardening and variable fatigue state) that I think is doing something that the steel locking lugs of my action should already be doing.
One area where there is room for improved cartridges might be in falling-block single shot rifles, where a rimmed cartridge is traditional and often required mechanically. We just don't have very good modern rimmed cartridges to choose from, and often the improving process can be dramatic on rimmed rounds such as .25/35, since you are free to scoot the shoulder forward.
I do have a couple improved chambering reamers I hope to play around with after I retire in another year or so. One is .35 Whelen AI. I suppose you are right that the case volume difference is really minor, and no I don't think headspace is a problem with the factory version, but I just like the looks of it. Hopefully it will feed smoothly with the reduced body taper. I don't expect any feed hitches from such a small shoulder, sharp or not. Another one I picked up cheap (along with a sizing die reamer) on eBay is .35 Remington AI. It's pretty crazy, I'm not sure if Ackley himself ever went there, to be honest. I think I'll be forming rimmed cases from .30/40 Krag brass to create a whole new wildcat, but I can actually see some practicality for the rimless chambering in a strong bolt action. You could load it up much hotter than factory ammo with no danger of your improved ammo ever drifting away and blowing up one of the older semi-auto or lever action guns, yet be able to fire factory ammo in a pinch your own gun. As a professional machinist my first boss used to always say "Don't set a trap for the next guy" so making the hot ammo so it can never be fired in a standard chamber makes sense to me. The performance advantage in that case would not so much be from increased case volume, or anything about the "improved" shape, but just from the freedom to jack up pressures with a free conscience.
Another great video with clear explanations, thanks for posting!
My 338-06 A I runs very close to the win . Mag. Maybe fifteen feet per second behind, with about twenty percent less powder and recoil. Brass life is great. David Gentry of Belgrade Montana built mine and I get 1/2” groups consistently. Douglas AA stainless , 23” length. Rifle weighs 6.7 lbs with 2-8 leupold on. Awesome rifle for ALL North American big game.
Right on DD.👍
I think the 30,30 is one that benefitted from this 🤔
thank you for your knoledge!
I enjoyed this video because it encapsulated a lot of pieces of information I’ve picked up over the years from various sources but never saw consolidated in one place. It also affirmed some of the beliefs I’ve come to secretly hold about various cartridges, AI conversions, and fatuous claims by users, reloaders, TH-camrs, and writers. It may not settle the arguments, but at least now I don’t feel so much like a secret heretic.
Thanks for a great video. Getting ready to put together a 6mm Rem A.I..
Only under bore cartridges benifits from improving by blowing out the case. An example would be the 250 Savage. The 22-250 would not be much of an improvement. Read PO Ackley's book . He considered the 270 Winchester slightly over bore. He did much testing by rechambering the same barrel with larger and larger case capacity cartriges until there was very little velocity gain. An example would be the 280 Remington being about maximum case capacity for the 7mm bore. A 338 Winchester magnum case necked down to 30 caliber would be about the max case capacity for 30 caliber bore. My experience with the 6mm Remington Ackley and case stretch was little to no case strech. Brass still flows forward because brass cases thicken at the junction of case neck and shoulder.
Terrific expose. Thank you.
Spot on info there.
I primarily use AI on varmint cartridges with light bullets. That is where I get the bigger advantage of velocity increase is with light bullets. I did a 270 necked down to 243 with a finished neck of .246. A snug fit on the bolt close for fireforming with 70gr btips and 1/2 groups. Better groups fireforming. After formed, about a 3/4 inch group. Hellacious velocities. Death ray for a groundhog. Barrel life a little short though....ha wanted to just have a larger 220 Swifter.
PO, said his most successful wildcat was the 30-40 AI
In his book Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders, vol. 1, he said that the .30-40 Ackley Improved was, to quote, "one of the best Improved cartridges". I have a Winchester P14 sporter in .30-40 Krag Ackley Improved and I love it.
The .260 AI is perhaps the perfect combination of efficiency and velocity. I can run a 139 grain Lapua Scenar at just a tad over 3000fps with no pressure signs.
*The ONLY ream only with NO barrel setback Ackley Improvement conversion I am aware of would be the 30-30 Ackley Improved. So, the myth of the 'REAM ONLY Conversion' may be a reality or myth depending on which cartridge we are considering.*
I luv your videos you have a great speaking voice. This video helped .me alot.
You forgot my favorite Ackley ...
22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer.
Ok I just like to say it.
Ackley was using old surplus 50-cal military powder (H570). Image if you could revisit the 22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer with a healthy charge of modern Reloder 33 or H50!!!!!
Great video. This changes my mind on the 280 AI.
Hey DD, I’m a reloader. I keep a load data notebook for each of my rifles. I’m not totally happy with it though. Seems like a hodge-podge of loads that didn’t work out with a few great ones.
How to you keep load records?
Have any tips to keep it all organized?
I have been loading shells for years and are totally confident.Using a couple of wildcats that just weren't around back then.I'm not trying to justify but a fantastic learning experience.
The one cartridge I have always considered is the 22-250 AI.For the reasons you have stated I think it is a good way to go.Because I want to build a rifle with a 1/8 twist barrel for 75-80 gr. bullets for long range shooting.I can get some extra velocity.The question is do I really need any more velocity?The books say 3300 fps in the standard version.I do like the extra case life but don't like the shorter barrel life with this cartridge.I am still sitting on the fence so in the meantime I'll keep shooting my .375-08.
You did a great job with the pros and cons for somebody considering a type of wildcat that can be used with factory loads.
I have a copy of vol one and two of p.o. Ackley printed many years ago. Good info
I have a handful of Ackley Improved cartridges 1- 280 AI is great with 160 gr Nosler Accubond - elk deer and antelope have all fallen victim to this combo, 250 -3000 AI is a great one for deer, antelope, feral hogs ect- Sierra uses this cartridge to test accuracy of it 25 caliber bullets, 22-250 Rem AI with a 1-7 twist is great for deer and hogs and finally our 260 Rem AI with 1-8 twist is a hammer with 129gr and 142gr Nosler Accubond LR's- it has been great for antelope,deer and feral hogs. Take you pick and add more, just bought a 6,5-06 AI
If you improve a cartridge. And load to the same velocity as the parent. A huge plus is the increase in accurate barrel life. And brass life increases significantly. I dont have raw data to compare. But the logic is sound. More capacity with the same velocity means it must have lower pressure as long as the same powder is being used. Not charge wieght. Just type of powder. And as we all know. Pressure and heat are what really burn up the throats. Friction only contributes a tiny fraction of wear.
You are absolutely correct about the velocity gains with the AI cartridges. Case life and feeding and extraction are the most beneficial points to the rounds. P.O.Ackley himself in his books says that overbore cartridges gain less than under bore cartridges and really efficient cases gain most when velocity is considered.
Thanks, appreciate the info👍👍
223Ai 22-250Ai 2 of my favorite improved cases.
Doesn’t your buddy have all the same perks you mentioned on a standard 30-06 with the capability to fire that cartridge as well? Plus the advantage of stepping up to the improved?
Two of the greats rocky Gibbs and ackley
I agree! I have a Remington model 721 with a 28" .30 Gibbs barrel, and it's hot rod! With 165 grain bullets, it eclipses my .300 Winchester Magnum!
Are all "AI" cartridges truly Ackley's work? For instance, did he improve the 7mm-08? There are a lot out there and I wonder if some are other folks applying Ackley's recipe to newer cartridges. I was working on a modified cartridge and was toying with the idea of the 40 degree shoulder and removed taper scheme, but opted not to for the cost of customer die. I more over PRC'ed it by pulling the bullet out of the case and reducing the diameter of the freebore slightly.
The 7mm-08 "A.I." was never mentioned in his books. He also mentioned that the .308 class of cartridges were already engineered well enough that improving them was virtually redundant.
I vote yes for a 338-06AI vid.
Also, I was doing some ballistics calcs a few days ago comparing various cartridges and was in disbelief when I looked at Nosler's specs for their Trophy Grade ammo. They list 140gr AB in 280AI at 3200fps MV while exact same bullet in 7 rem mag is 3125fps and same weight bullet in 270 wsm is 3100 fps MV. Using these numbers, 280 AI beats 7mm mag and 270short mag in all categories at all distances shooting nosler 140 factory ammo. Seems too good to be true. Am I missing something? Would love to hear your thoughts on this DD.
Don't base any judgements on factory ammo. 1) Most factory ammo doesn't perform as advertised, and 2) the powder blend and charge-weight they use for the load has the biggest impact on velocity, and 3) many of the max velocity factory loads shoot like crap because the powder favors velocity over consistency (like Superformance).
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 okay thanks. I don't put a whole lot of faith in the accuracy of factory ammo specs but I thought since I was comparing the same brand of ammo using data from the same source that they would all equally underperform by about the same margin and that would cancel out the factory fudge factor.
Test barrel length must be considered and max pressures taken into account when they throw those numbers around.
very smart man with common sense
After 3 years, I finally put together my 6.5x55 AI. That crush-fit ain't no joke! My gunsmith told me it would be hard to chamber virgin brass, but damn it wasn't what I expected! 😆
Update: Crush fit isn't bad. What I was feeling was the bullet to neck tension friction. I seat my bullets very long to jam it into the lands. With a neck tension of .261" I can chamber very easy. With .260" it's significantly harder. I really have to use a lot of effort to push the projectile into the case.
How much magazine or other alterations are needed to shoot ai from standard feeding wise rifles
No alterations to the magazine are necessary.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I had to with my 6.5x55 swede I had it reamed out to Bob jourdan AI 40 degree shoulder wouldn’t feed through standard feed ramp because of the taper of the 6.5 swede Basically now a 6.5-284 shoots well thanks for the great videos ,from NZ
Love my 270AI with 130gr nosler ballistic tip and 66gr of 4831sc.
I always tried to reload for best accuracy an not the highest velocity. All to frequently the highest velocity gives some of the worst accuracy. As a bit of a post script, I had usually considered the 300 Win Mag as being essentially the 30-06 A. I. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I was thinking that with Ackley improved, no mater what caliber, will extend brass life. And as a re-loader, it will save time and brass. Don't you think so?
🤠 So, Desert Dog, could you please tell me which Major Manufacturer (Besides Nosler) are making Brass and Ammunition for the Nosler Sammi Specification cartridges and which ones for the original Ackley cartridges? And, was their any difference in powder capacity between the two designs (or was it just a neck length, not shoulder, variation)? 🤷♂️
I don't know. I've never purchased AI brass (I always fireform my own); and AFAIK, commercial brass is only made for one cartridge (280AI, which I stated in the video I no longer load). Also as stated in this video, I'm not sure that the 280AI and 280AI-SAAMI are different or the same (hence the controversy). I do know that chambers seem to be all over the place; even among newer so-called SAAMI spec 280AI's. If you took anything away from this video, it should be to stay away from AI conversions unless the rifle was done by a good Smith that you trust 100%. Never buy a used AI rifle.
🤠 Desert Dog, thank you for responding to my question(s)! 🤗 After first commenting on your video a few days earlier, I did a little more research on this cartridge and found several good articles on it! 🤗 One of which was actually written by Ron Spomer - who owns a 280 AI! 🤕 Their is a difference and he explains how it came about - that Weatherby used the information from their cartridge SAMMI Spec Design, from Remington! 😥 Nothing like taking your "Advice" from a company that went bankrupt! 🤣 I am surprised that SAMMI didn't question it, let alone approved it! 😱 The waters here are still muddy here to me! 🤷♂️ It seems to be a cartridge growing in popularity and I wanted to understand the "Truth" on it! 🧐 Thanks again!👍
Good info THANKS
I love my 338/06 non ai
Been working on a 22/250 ai 1/7 twist 27"
Is PO's book readily available?
Check Amazon
I have wondered if certain characteristics of parent cartridges tend to make the AI versions have issues, largely with feeding. My thinking is that a relatively short case that also has a relatively large amount of diameter reduction at the shoulder (and especially one with a relatively short amount of bullet protruding from the case) might have a harder time going smoothly into the chamber. Maybe something like the 22-250 AI?
🤠 Thank you for addressing this subject matter!👍Two years ago, when I was looking to buy a new rifle, one of the cartridges I was considering was a 280 AI! 🤔 Also in the mix was the 300wsm, 6.5 prc, 7mm-08 Remington, and the 308 Winchester! 🤗 I already had a 30-06 Springfield (pre-64 model 70 Winchester) and a 270 Winchester (Sako model 75), so I was contemplating the possibility of getting something different? 🙄 But, once I started looking into the AI, I was spooked away! 😬 Nosler was chambering the Rifle, as was our Montana Based Company Kimber, but Horneday issued a warning on "all" AI cartridges! 😋 Because these companies are in competition with each other (and all reputable), I decided that this conflict information required further investigation? 🧐 To my surprise, as you eluded to, the "waters" only got muddier! 🙃 Various sources that I trusted, started giving me controversial opinions on the subject! 🤯 Then, throw in the controversy among rifle chamberings among different rifle manufactures, botched gunsmithing jobs, and several horror stories on damaged chambers - I decided it just wasn't worth the risk/ concerns (headache)! 😫 The 280 AI, balistically, is a fine cartridge (no doubt)! 😯 But, when I started contemplating it further and the rifles I would like to own, I decided on a Sako Model 85 in the Finlight II! 😛 The Rifle was stainless, cetakoted, fluted barrel, had an adjustable cheak piece, controlled round feed, strong carbon fiber bedded stock, metal detachable magazine, smooth action, etc...a very durable and weather resistant rifle! 😍 Just what I was looking for and had most of the cartridges that I was interested in! 😁 Since I already have owned several, no one needed to sell me on the accuracy of a Sako rifles (superb)! 😃 After careful contemplation, I bought my self another 270 Winchester and have no regrets! 😊 With more good bullet choices continuing to come out, the 270 caliber is better than ever! 😉 You and I think alot alike on "acceptable shooting distances" and the "practicality" of the 30-06/270 case design! 💁♂️ But the older I get, the more a light weight rifle appeals to me (this one is 6 1/4 pounds and just a hair over 7 pounds with my compact and very durable metal 3×9 Ziess scope/with Butler creek scope caps and sling/swivel/and scope rings) and it is chambered in a "sensible" mild recoiling cartridge! 🕵️♂️ I have No Regrets on my gun and caliber choices either! 😎
Another great video!!!👍
I’ve known these little facts for a long time . The gains are minimal at best with AI cartridges. I shoot a .280 Remington and have no desire to improve upon its performance, it does everything I need it to do out to 400 yards , including harvesting elk .
I have recently learned about the new Weatherby .338 RPM , and I will have to study up a bit more on this one , but just curious if it is just another attempt to reinvent the wheel so to speak .. another trending fast cartridge for the ages , or perhaps something that will prove to be a true performer over the .338/06 AI and Ruger .338 RCM and the likes of .338 win Mag . Curious about your thoughts on that .
You forgot to throw in the 338 Federal too, lol. I honestly think the 338 market is saturated right now (like the 6.5 market is). 338 is also a "niche" medium-bore caliber that's a little too much for average game and a little too little for dangerous critters. The paper punchers love the 338 Lapua, and the hunters love the 338 Win Mag. Crusty old guys think the 338-06 is more practical. I don't think the thought process is going to change in the very small 338 market.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I agree with you on everything you just said . And I still hold dearly to my .280 Remington for all practical hunting purposes, I just couldn’t justify any significant gains going to an AI .
Short chambering a gun can help with fireforming but is likely to cause sizing die issues.
Nothing is "short-chambered". Chambers should be cut to "improved cartridge" specs. Brass is then sized in an "improved cartridge" die.
To each is own.
All my rifles in the safe are Ackley's.
And seeing the gains of the smaller packages..
Like 20-223 A, 6mmBR A, 250 savage A I can't see why the 40° shoulder would be beneficial to all case's..
Also why be like the rest?..
Again to each is own. 257 Bob ackley is to be one of the best Ackley's ever.
Good video as always yes for 338/06 vid
I've always wanted a 308AI , no it's not a good choice for being Improved but it just looks so cool lol
Just picked up a Savage 340B in 219 Zipper AI, guess I've already fell into the rabbit hole.
One of the biggest reasons that was not mentioned for AI cartridges was a straight taper and increased shoulder angle which was designed for 2 things. Powder column and burn rate . Centering the cartridge in the chamber. Read history and understand.
I failed to understand how straightening the case wall or putting a 40° shoulder would Center itself any better than a highly tapered case with a smaller shoulder angle they both have the ability to Center themselves just fine one is not superior to the other for centering a cartridge in the chamber. The tapered case is easier to remove from the chamber after the brass has been fired the 40° shoulder blows out and doesn't shrink back like a more tapered shoulder and has a tendency to stick in the chamber after being fired
The shoulder was for burn rate. I'm just stating what was said to be the reasons. I'm just a reloader that has read the reasons stated by the engineers.
I have an old sporterized 1903 Springfield, I suspect it doesn't have a proper chamber like P.O. recommended. So yes, I have had case head separations until I figured out the problem.
Yep. A lot of bad smiths would just run a reamer down the tube and skip the part where you needed to set the barrel back a thread.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 once I figured out the problem, I knew how to solve with reloading procedures. Not an issue anymore, but ironically the only thing I use that rifle for is shooting cast bullets. Fabulously accurate at about 1750fps. 30-06ai fyi.
250fps isn’t unattainable with a good powder. H1000 is a good choice that might get that. The improvement is efficiency. Hit 7mag speed with a lot less powder
I want to launch a projectile with a 0.6 bc at 3000 fps out of a short action with a non-magnum bolt face and a barrel that's no longer than 26". I want a 6.5 to keep the recoil down, and a want good brass life with minimal brass maintenance. I'm not aware of a factory cartridge that meets these requirements, but a 260 AI checks all the boxes and can be formed with small primer brass to boot.
Great video, thanks
Oh boy do I wish I saw this video before my foray into the AI cartridges. The velocity myth is what bit me. I thought one could always add another 1.5-2gr of powder in the AI formed case. Well, I had two dangerous over pressure results that learnt me the hard way on this lesson. I can say the .243AI gave another 150fps safely. The 708AI gives only 50fps more safely. Good point on the feeding aspect. Now my AI fired brass doesn't feed good out of my AICS magazines...
Great video!
Yeah, .338/06 nice cartridge, video please.
So if you start Remington 700 in 280 and get a screw on barrel in 280AI will that work?
As long as it's headspaced for 280AI specs.
As long as the heads pace is correct.
I am going to build one on a old Remington 721 b that I got at a pawn shop and it was a 30-06 and didn’t shoot good so I took a bore scope to after several tricks didn’t work and the chamber was not cut inline with the bore so I have ordered a pre treaded barrel already crown and short chambered for the 280 AI I think it will be a fun project
I have two Sako AI rifles (22-250 & 280 AI) you can buy the 280AI brass off the shelf.
Is that the PO Ackley book you show
Thanks
Good info.
Great video. I'm surprised someone hasn't done a 6mm Creedmoor AI yet. I wonder how that would compare to the 6mm Remington AI?
I have a 280AI Kimber. It shoots real well, but I have only used AI factory brass in it so far. I love my 7 mm Mauser but the brass seems to constantly stretch and I hate trimming. I've sent one out to be turned into a 7 Mauser AI just to avoid trimming. It should give 280 Rem performance which is more than enough for the ranges I hunt.
you may not have your dies set right. try only partial sizing fired brass or only nick sizing. just a thought
@@paulhazel5754 My 7mm & 8mm Mauser, I neck size only. Well, all my bottleneck cartridges I neck size!
I have no chambering issues at all. Lee Precision Dies.
@@paulhazel5754 right you are , and full length resizing sets the brass back to factory spec's not what your actual chamber is at . Once a round has been shot in your gun it is fireformed to your specific guns chamber , and neck sizing should be all you need for a couple of loadings ( unless you load HOT ) . By sizing full length you make the round OK to shoot in any gun of the same caliber but that sets the shoulder slightly and keeps making the neck longer slightly .
338-06 video going to happen? Sounds interesting. Thanks
There will be an in-depth discussion of the 338-06 in the December edition of Hunt Camp Mail.
AI cartridges are great if headspaced right and the brass lasts much longer, but I only use lapudy and petersooon and don't really run high noders
6.5 x06 has 2 different specs .270 brass and regular 06 lengths I drive 130 s to 3 k which is plenty and 140 s w rl 25/26 to 2950 ish I like the 6.5 x06 a true wildcat that’s still in the books as a wildcat w recipes
there is no "might" about it, we have 2 different 280 AI designs. The 280 AI RCBS 40 degree which followed the PO Ackley design and the 280 AI Nosler spec which moved the headspace by 0.014"
Don't forget brass quality makes a difference on performance gains. Soft brass will have higher pressures than good high quality harder brass like lapua or adg, peterson and alpha or rws. I have witnessed this on pressure test barrels, and barrel quality and hardness do make a difference also.
Absolutely. Barrel friction has a huge impact on velocity for any given pressure curve.