The Conditioned Self: J. Krishnamurti, David Bohm, and Saral Bohm
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- "Unconditionally Free, the life and insights of J. Krishnamurti - The Conditioned Self" is a rare overview of Krishnamurti and David Bohm’s views of thought creating the thinker rather than the thinker creating thought. It includes Saral Bohm’s insights on David’s relationship with Krishnamurti and the ideas they explored together.
One fundamental concept explored here is how self-deception permeates the fundamental structure, which corrupts not only thought about ourselves but thought in general. One of the many important insights is the way the psyche, or thought, defends its integrity by concealing its self-deception, not only from others but from itself.
JK aside, what a wonderful human being Mr. Bohm was.
World will forever be grateful to these two gentleman.
I watched K years and years ago and didn't get it. Not until I recently read Anthony DeMello where he focuses on attachment.
And at nearly 70 I am so lucky I rediscovered these two brilliant minds.
I will watch this over and over again until it penetrates.
It's all here folks, it's all here.
Don't let this pass you by.
Thanks so much for uploading.
Krishnamurti screams random unfalsifiable bullshit that cannot be proven or disproven true (just appealing to our emotions), it is no different than a child's mumble really....both holds no value to anyone but the person who uttered them
@@caret4812 what do you propose , Christianity ?
@@robertoNcognito David Bohm
@@robertoNcognito 😂
th-cam.com/play/PL1n30s-LKus4ipHYdBpKt1-AdSN181Lc0.html i hope these help you more on your search
This video of J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm is priceless and their words are the truth of counciousness and existence. Thanks for sharing.
Yes true 💚
So the struggle with thought ends only, when we are beyond words, „loving without motive „, what Krishnaji demands.
To care with passion, with compassion is all we need to do from aware moment to moment.
Krishnaji gave me the motto for daily life: „Negate everything but Love ❤️ „
So impressed by the story of Dave, the book, Krishnaji and his specific language......... I am thankful to Saral for bringing out this story
I love Saral - her insights and comments are wonderful.
They sure were extraordinary.
No , ordinary. Extra is ego 🤫
Excellent dialogue! Thank you for posting. Rest In Power Dr. Bohm!
Thanks for putting this together. Much appreciated
Thank you for posting! Priceless! Very illuminating.
Just great , thanks for sharing with us in the day our father has passed away...for his soul i hope...
So beautiful video ! Loved it! Thank you !
Thank you for unpacking Krishnamurtis teaching. I recently started reading his works.
I love that they also learn from each other.
No words to the describe the knowledge between two intelligent human beings so profoundly
Thought creates the thinker.
As much as your comment creates you
@@5xing8gua as much as your comment creates you
No human no thought no thinker.
@@sidementracks8465 desires, emotions, ... bring thoughts which in their turn generate new emotions and desires, a vicious circle that gives a sense of continuity = ego = thinker.
It's so important this phrasis, because this is a most wrong reference about human being: the human being tô think that IS separated from another other human being. NO! Thought create this ilusion. No "we". only onde big body
Nobody could ever bring out the essence of Krishnamurti's teachings as well as David Bohm. He delivers the essence in such a way; as to bring about the change that cannot come through reading any of the books........................
This video contains 28 minutes summarising the essential elements of many dialogues between Krishnamurti and Bohm in which they opened up the dangers of thought processes that conditioned the psychological realm of the fragmented consciousness that society has adopted universally in practically every aspect of the quest for greater understanding of the nature of the common problems that beset human beings no matter where they reside in the physical world.
The insight provided freely from listening and learning as action that needs no time per se is not something that fits into a systematic way of learning involving instruction as a teacher imparting accumulated knowledge and experience to students or disciples who it turn are examined according to the retention and recitation of the memorised matters so taught. Instead, it is instant insight of whole content that negates the limited qualities of thought that were supposed to be the ground offering security to the brain’s movement. Security sought by adding bits of fragmented knowledge together necessitated time (psychologically) in its effort to reach a modicum of equilibrium, mainly operating from a central point of control encompassing past knowledge or evolution historically. The increase across the board of incidence of anxiety, stress, depression and dementia are testimony that traditional mainstream approaches are loosing the battle spectacularly.
Thanks to Bohm and Krishnamurti, anyone who is interested in learning anew about the mystery of life from a holistic perspective can share the vast intelligence that these two giants of wisdom unfolded for the attention of those who care to discover self knowledge (unselfishly) and thereby form a nucleus capable of changing the hitherto emphasis on self centred psychological controls and so forth. Cheers.
Well said Sir. Thanks for this.
There is no such thing as 'psychological realm' or 'fragmented consciousness'. The whole work of life of JK is to bring attention to thought itself instead of result of thought which is ideas and has no existence. JK work is obviously helpful in obsoleting memory and imagination but with strong accent on attention instead. As far as modern education works in opposite direction which produces billions of people with mainly developed memory and imagination but with almost destroyed attention apparatus of mind.
@@5xing8gua Very good point about how education is "undoing" it all... I wonder how this would work for schools, where primarily we operate with didactic, methods...
A remarkable edit, providing a fresh opportunity for one to listen. Many thanks and well done.
When teenager - Krishnamurti was a guiding light - thank you - great to find these interviews now - noosphere - mind sphere- conscious -spirit = more to life than the physical
Who is Krishnamurti?? We know his teachings! We know him as this great teacher of mankind. But who is the “man” we call K? This was the question that popped into my head this morning as I pulled up this video. And the answer that came to me immediately was “K is no different from his teachings! He is that … his teachings!”
Well, do You wonna say, that You try to put him in to an image?
There's no teaching. There's only understanding
Theres no I in Krishnamurti most will tell but its not possible that in this world someone else will say. I think he pointed out the road its up to you
Profound. Listening to brains that are truly awakened
I prefer not needing to decipher between two. Time is limited.
I want this kind of relationship
Amazing isn't it? I wonder whether it is possible... to just talk together like those two do! Peace to you.
Great... thank you so much 🙏
Thank you for this
Wonderfully done.
Magnifico gracias y Bendiciones
sharing pure health, resulting in joyful inspiration springing from within thus full of ongoing vitality "energy in emptiness"... love and no fear... no escapism yet such relief in today's still lineair (blocked as well as gapped) time-bound thus corrupted "2020-worldway" (!!) feeling humbly gr(e)ateful i can hear myself (i.e. essence, in its entirety, "being together") in all being shared in this video * no machine authority but the true loving free spacious infinite compassionate mind.... (this comment in unfinished state, just expressing ongoing "freedom from the known") thank you for uploading this and similar videos
I like the manner in which you have expressed yourself. I felt like you had more to share... are you a writer?
I also experienced an evolving understanding of K through multiple readings of the same book which revealed and gave clarity to his use of language
Thank you sir 🙏🙏
So nice to finally see Saral Bohm and hear some of her perspectives on the relationship between DB and K. It's somehow heartwarming when she calls David Bohm - Dave.
Yes its great to see and hear her. I always wondered what sort of a person she may be. Now I know, she's a bright spark an articulate and perceptive woman. She was his tower of strength I'm sure.
@@yoya4766 I wish we had more accounts of hers. She definitely seem to have been a very important part of DB's later life.
David Peat's book "Infinite Potential: The Life and Times of David Bohm" sheds a bit more light on their relationship.
@@sergeyivanov3167 What did he say?
@@yoya4766 If you haven't read the book, I recommend it for sure. I feel like I'm doing Saral Bohm, you and the book a disservice by trying to summarize everything about Saral mentioned by the author. But the general feeling I got is that she was a bridge of a sort between DB and the practicalities of life. She was an integral part in bringing "normality" in his life if you will.
@@sergeyivanov3167 I'm wasn't overly impressed by Peat or Basil Hiley for that matter, hence not reading their work. Thanks for the info on Saral, on this video its clear to see she is a bright spark. I understood theirs wasn't the easiest marriage. Perhaps they had differing opinions about Israel?
grandiosidade de sabedoria...
incomparable dialogues between K. and D. Bohm ;
4:05 self 4:24 9:46
9:22 brain - mind
15:35 seeing there is no security in illusion is intelligence
19:36 if thought deceives itself ...
23:27 insight_
24:28 freedom
25:12 conditioning
26:02 watching ...
Courtesy K.
Thank you
Very interesting and fascinating. Why don't ye post this to K's main channel if I may ask. It would be great to get more eyes on these video's.
I realize that I am conditioned. I also realize that it all started from the second conception of me in my parents' brains, their traditions, which becomes my ego, as I grow older under their care, as their child. It is, like a pie in the sky formed in my parents' dreams and wishes for me and about the secure future for me in their hopes.... And I took their efforts over, and have been trying my head-off, to keep up to continuing the legacy. Then where is the result of the first and the real one, not the "pie-in-the-sky" conception of me...?
15:51
Good question , wher are thay ;I hope I am not the last who looking together with unconditional support towards that not there's love which binds us ,,,,to bring to the rest of words that Salvations ,,
@@hhk342 ... "Where is It?" ...you mean...? What is unconditional love or support and where does it start? What are salvations and where do they start, and how do they work?
No solution but more problems?
What is "the first and the real one"? ... A~ha the "first and real of me" person ... if that still exists ... coming the last.... Can my ego find it?
as I watch this video, I say a prayer,
I pray for health, for wealth, and for love...
Love you Krishnamurti ji. ❤
This is brilliant. Been reading Krishnamurti for 30 years and now listening. Thanks for uploading this. May all beings be happy.
didn't you get it after 30 years? why do you keep on listening??
@@lamus4e why not listen again, listen to the breath again, listen to Motorhead again. Be happy and smile.
@@lamus4e coz he never read or listened to the other Krishnamurti (U.G.)
;)
@@imrankhanpathan1470 and if you have, why are you listening to this?
@@lamus4e just to annoy people like you and evoke a response :p
Kidding..
Just stumbled on it man, also a big fan of David B. Hence gave it a shot
The Conditioned Self is ego who separates oneself from others for self-protection. Ego is made up by the wounded inner child. To return to the unconditioned self, insight of the root cause of suffering of the wounded inner child is essential. To attain insight, we need to stop thinking. Only if our brain is resting, we attain insight. Concentration is the key to stop thinking, or to rest our brain.
“We’re not trying to say that thought is entirely vicious or wrong. Thought is in between. It’s doing all these things and it’s also capable of all sorts of other things. We may need something more than thought as well, but we may also have to have clear thought about thought.
We’re thinking about all sorts of things, but we never said that it’s very important to think clearly about thought. This may be the first step…
…By thinking that thought is all bad we’re in danger of pinning ourselves into a corner. If you say thought is all bad then we need something beside thought. But then how are we going to get it? Thought will never give it to you, and we’ll hope for a miracle.
We can distinguish between thinking and thought. Thinking is an active process, which is actually going on. The syllable -ing at the end suggests something active, and thought is the past.
When we’ve been thinking, we suppose that it all vanishes. Thinking tells you what’s right, what’s really there, then we decide what to do, we do it and it’s all gone. But in fact, we suggest, that thinking becomes thought, it goes on to a program. What you’ve been thinking, especially the conclusions and the assumptions, the general things like that, go on to a program.
If you’ve been thinking that the people of that category are bad, it becomes a program and you see them as bad and you respond immediately. If you tell your children that, that’s how they’re going to behave, automatically. The memory springs into action like a program. You don’t have the time to see it happening and you think that that’s the reality and the truth.
We need that, because if you’re going to drive a car, a lot of thought goes in. We have to learn all sorts of things that we’re ought to be doing. It becomes a part of our program so that we could respond immediately, rather than have to think. If you took time to think, the response would be too late. So we need this possibility of making thought a program in all sorts of ways, yet it’s dangerous. Because without noticing it the program could spring into action, telling us - these people are bad, I must kill such and such person, under such conditions I must do this, I’m this sort of person, they’re that sort of person and we’ll never meet. Thought could tell us all that like a program, so we see it that way. It affects our perception; it affects our whole attitude, the adrenaline. “
@@sergeyivanov3167 "I think, therefore I'm not." (Ego thinks, therefore true self is not.) is correct. Your words prove that you are ego.
@@compassion5151 友よ、想定しすぎるではないだろう。俺の言葉ではないし。
I was just quoting David Bohm, trying to expand on your comment, hoping to circumnavigate the opinion wars. ;)
You could have written "I assume, therefore I'm not.", "I fragment, therefore...", "I feel, therefore...". All of those would be valid up to a point. All those would seem to limit the supposed "true self" by constricting it to a non thinking, assuming, fragmenting, feeling... "true self".
It's definitely challenging talking about the "true self", the unlimited, the ineffable or whatever you want to call it. But if you say it's impossible, then we seem to be pinning ourselves into a corner.
Never the less, you commented. I assume you'd agree that that's using thought? It may be a language barrier as it often happens
Also, "We could consider the distinction between false and true as compared to the distinction between correct and incorrect. If we say an idea is correct, it fits the fact up to a point, if it’s incorrect it doesn’t. False and true are often used as correct and incorrect but in a way that’s confused.
Correctness and incorrectness is just a comparison of content with a fact. So we could say that a statement is correct but not true."
Concentration is another form of conditioning without it ,if you fell off concentration what are u?
There is a great insight here, but the language used for this modern version of the ancient advaita/vedanta philosophy has evolved greatly since the days of Krishnamurthi and Bohm. Their language is confusing, because they start by saying that the self is conditioned, then they go on to say that the self is infinite. Logically the same self cannot both be conditioned (limited) and infinite. It looks like a contradictory philosophy, therefore we may have a tendency to reject it.
More recent teachers of nonduality start with a discussion of awareness, and how everyone has it, yet it is taken for granted and not considered important. This leads to a consideration of the split or alienation of people's identification between two very different entities, both of which can be called 'self'.
More familiar is the self of the person, meaning the conception of a self that has a name, a gender, an occupation, certain psychological problems, and many other characteristics.
However, it is relatively easy, via instruction, to start with awareness and investigate it further to discover that we are aware of having a name, a gender, etc., and that in fact our awareness comes first (is more immediate), before any specific experience such as a thought or being hungry or happy. We can begin to see that we are not our stories about ourselves.
Thus, contemporary nonduality sees that we are limited by our conditioning, but that we can easily step outside of those limitations by beginning to see our true self (as opposed to our imagined self) has very different characteristics.
We can discover that our true self is unlimited by any boundaries or barriers of thought, meaning, or other structure. We can discover that it is indeed the source of all thought, and is completely peaceful and happy in its own nature, when it is not identified with the separate or imagined self, but perceived directly within itself.
While it can be a bit difficult to decipher the discussion in this video, such teachers as Rupert Spira and Mooji, both of whom have many videos available here, speak very simply and plainly about a direct path to self-realization, that is, the realization that we are actually aspects of one consciousness, silent and unmoving, yet the source of all intelligence and creativity.
Once we have a firm understanding of nonduality from recent teachers, looking back at past explanations reveals them to be just as true as the more recent teachings. All that has changed is the language used, but what a difference this change makes for newcomers to nonduality!
Thank you, I agree that the vocabulary has changed and evolved. I respect Bolm's hypothesis of how we get our thoughts, identity and beliefs. However, in his day, computers were not ubiquitous, and the internet was only used in the US Military. There are contemporary thinkers that are struggling for their ideas to be acknowledged.
It's time to move into the 21st Century before Planet Earth is permanently altered. I'm with you, friend.
You may both rest in peace. Than you..
Beauty of this earth.
Ojala puedan subtitularlo. Gracias
anybody knows which music is included in this video?
As long as there is a self “thought becomes a dangerous and destructive instrument.”
It is very important not to give significance to thought. Thoughts are frauds in the psychological realm.
Did anyone notices his energetic walk at begining of the video
Thought freezes the flow of life and turn that into an icicle -- cold and numb.
"We’re using a thought to question another thought, which is always the way thought works - to show the contradiction. We’re not saying that we shouldn’t use thought, because that would be again impossible, but rather there are thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. Our culture is full of thoughts about thoughts, many of which may be wrong. We can use thoughts about thoughts to call attention to how the whole thing is working; it makes a kind of map of the process. Eventually that won’t work if we can’t move beyond that map into the territory. "
Does anyone know the name of background piano music 🎶 extremely soothing! 27:56.. Also in the beginning
I’ve heard Ram dass tell a story of a villager who asked Gandhi to give his village a message. I believe he replied by saying “My life is my message”. Every time I see K that pops into my eyes mind .
Could you possibly tell me the name of the background piano music 🎶?
Por favor 🙏 opción de subtitulado en español 🙏 gracias 🙂
So beautiful music... can you tell me the name of the composer?
“The conditioning of the brain produces a false illusion that we call the self.” Removing all conditioning is of paramount importance.
Only when the brain is completely unconditioned then it can connect to the mind (=the ground of all existence which is free and unconditioned and is not associated with any man made nonsense).
Beautiful...It was lovely to hear from David Bohm's wife's perspective on her late husbands relationship with K and how David really encouraged Jiddu to be more specific in between the details of his work, during their talks. Such as, what happens in between the senses and experience or the difference between the mind and the brain.
I loved David's explanation on creative intelligence too. It helped me clear up on what action really is and it's relationship truth. I agree with Saral, I doubt we will ever get to see two or more people discuss life in such careful and intimate detail again.
This is great. 10:40- 11:18 , 20:20- 20:50 and 25:30- 25:45 together is much of the key point.
Free of conditioning the attentive mind is a powerhouse...
I have never seen anywhere K saying intelligence originates in some kind of mystic place. This is Dr. Bohm's interpretation, not the key point.
@@henryreese7236 the key point to this video, i felt. I also dont think you should be finding answers in the things k or anyone says, you know?
@@davidinpittsburgh i agree, personally I think maybe alright to listen skeptically, not believing blindly what he said. The problem i felt is here Dr Bohm is theorizing about the whole process, something which I have never seen K doing.
@@henryreese7236 this is true but it was pointed out he helped in communication, something which should never be fully excepted anyway but is necessary
This is quite simple really, and it's not as complex as Bohm and his wife articulate. Most of us have involuntarily and futilely chosen to hop on the treadmill of hope and goal chasing believing it will make us happy. When One gets this and accepts it, life becomes so simple and serene. I have only got this and am now putting into practise.
Watch my progress and good luck to all.
Valuable Inputs 🙏
Is it possible for the mind to free of the known ?
Enlightened mind is free from all conditioning ?
@-GinΠΓ Τάο Thanks..it's complex indeed 🙏
🙏
❤
❤❤❤
choose thoughts ... freedom
💟
💓🍃
Krishnamurti walking like he's 30 years of age, impressive to say the least
Does anyone know what year the interview of Bohm is from?
Looks to be from the same time as the main recording, 1982.
Clips from the interview were first seen in the following Michael Mendizza film th-cam.com/video/YyRsLLo8YtU/w-d-xo.html
This video is also from MM.
I would say this interview was after the death of Krishnamurti so post Feb 1986.
The following video also uses clips from the interview th-cam.com/video/emAeFuwtelQ/w-d-xo.html
👌
“To discover the quality of the brain that is not conditioned and therefore infinite capacity.”
Brain/mind IS divided into left/right hemispheres to facilitate time/space navigation. The flow of Consciousness is diffused through the pineal gland into left/right channels for bifocal/stereophonic sight & hearing as duality requires. The dialectic for primacy of experience is between non-local Consciousness and local egoic constructs of mind.
Oh, this should clarify Consciousness for everyone!
I love how Dr Bohm always tries to restate JK words for the layman...I enjoy seeing them talk, Dr Bohm way of thinking is similar to mind...
His wife...!wonderful.
Oh January 28, 1980, Bohm wrote:
Part of the trouble is that K and I have not really been communicating for about six years. Whe we had the dialogues which they decided not to publich, I felt at last that things were changing. But with he decision not to publish, and with no chance for us to discuss this decision things got even worse. Meanwhile my own views have developed independently, and in many ways they are significantly different from those of K. What I wonder is wheter there is a real possibility of discussing seriously with K in free and wide-raging way so as to clear all this up without first basically accepting the assumption that he is basically right about all the deep questions, and that I have, in these discussions, to do nothing but discover what is wrong with my own approach. Of course, I realize that K is getting older, and perhaps more rigid than he once was. Also, I accept, at the very beginning, thatparto of the responsibility for the breakdown of the communication is my own. One way in which this has happened is that I feel that K has dismissed and tried to push aside my own work in science and philosphy in a way that is not justified, because I think it makes a signifficant contribution to what is being attempted by all of us. If I could see that what he dimissed is wrong, I would accept it. But it it is right, I find myself getting angry, not at first, but rather in a slow way, after many years. But this slow is deeper than just a sudden reaction. Certainly, I have to be free of it. Moreover, it might be the pain in the chest. Nevertheless, K is on of the few people who is seriously able to pursue these deep questions. It would be a pitty if I had to go on growing more and more distant from him.
Dear Fritz,
This is just a little note, mainly about what is happening at Brockwood. I can see that (as in Ojai) the crucial question is for people to talk freely to each other without fear, especially in meetings. Everybody is afraid of creting a disturbance, and of producing hostile reactions. Very often they are not clear and require freedom to talk in a confused way for 10 or 15 minutes, before they can even state what they mean. When everybody does this, unity arises, even when some people still don’t agree; as long as everybody knows what all the others have in mind. There is trust.
I feel that some progress is being made around this in Brockwood. But K’s approach of jumping on people who are confused or who don’t agree with him makes an absolute block and gets frear going.
Also, K dismisses everybody and frequently says that nobody is doing anyting - not at Brockwood, nor in Ojai, nor in Canada, nor in India. This simply blocks everything. He also dismisses what people outside the “organizations” are doing or anything connected with what is outside his approach. For example, in India, he gave a talk, in which he dismissed physics as “limited”, saying that he was glad that I was not present to hear him say it. He doesn’t seem to realize that of course, we all agree that by itself, physics is limted. But it has a part to play “in the whole picture.” Every activity (including the creating? of a school) is limited. If you limit yourself to the community of K’s schools you will just be learning in a little world of your own. I feel this deeply, as it was always my hope that physics, philosophy, etc would play a part in the whole work. I have fears that the attempt to limit myself to what K says, and to the work he wants to do is “crushing” me (literally, the pain in the chest). Also, I have learned much in other areas that provides a different perception, enabling me (and some others) to go furhter.
I don’t know whether this can be clared up. But I regard this question as crucial. What do you think?
Infinite Potential: The Life and Times of David Bohm
F. David Peat
P.328-329
that's a truly valuable contribution--thanks for posting that! It always seemed to me that K was being quite insultingly condescending to DB and that DB was showing anger involuntarily in his facial expressions etc but was too meek to come out with it. but here, he does.
@@Robb3348 Thank you.
I feel like the lionization of K is so widespread that there is a tendency to miss and/ or discard the limits of his approach. It seems also that he was willing to question a lot but rarely his ways.
I think I understand what you mean: I always felt uncomfortable when DB would try to clear some point and K would just cut him off and continue with some overly abstract and convoluted “cleverness”. I always felt like learning much more from DB in their conversations. For one DB’s humility of enduring as long as he did K’s (at times) condescending manner. Then DB’s tireless willingness to try and make some sense for the rest of us of those perennial ideas, which K was in my opinion struggling to articulate.
I really like how Bohm mentioned artificial intelligence and how its something people hope for. Writing this in 2024 after chat gpt it is really reflecting.
No lo pueden traducir a español por favor
🎉😊👍
when they say self is an illusion do they mean ego or do they differentiate between ego and self
No they're the same just different word for the same thing
How beautiful this is!!!
"Krishnaji has something he wants to bring out and he must bring out and i must help him"
This is a kind of statement only comes out when two are no longer communicate as two!
Can anyone summ up the points... I kind of got lost somewhere in between... Pls don't mind my carelessness.
@Fanabud Rogh If I may ask; how many years has it taken you to reach your goal of understanding?
😎❤️👍🏻🙏🏻
Oh no :( ... Not the bloomin background music, again.
The best thing in the world is not have any psychological thoughts of your own and also the brain to be impervious and not read the thoughts of others. Thought is man made and a contaminant that destroys and cripples. Then your brain connects to the mind of the ground and then and only then you rule creation.
“Thought is never new and never free. Thought can never be creative.” To rule creation thought has to be eliminated.
I can't help observing that the never-ending commentary engaged in by the professional navel gazers is ultimately kind of aimless.
23:27
Is there not a Bolm Educational channel? I find Bolm's ideas far more contemporary. I respect the older gentleman's withdrawal from all religiousness, but there are others that I prefer. Linking the two men together seems outdated. Apologizes for making my thoughts public.
“Can the mind be free from all conditioning that it acts? That requires a great deal of attention. I am this, I should be that, which is called self improvement. A lovely phrase. That is the self, which is selfishness is trying to improve itself, so it is becoming more selfish.”
You do not improve the self, you wipe out the self by disconnecting from man made consciousness. “Improvement” of the self leads to more and more powerful connection to man made consciousness thus more and more enslavement to man made nonsense. Once you disconnect from man made nonsense, the body automatically connects to the ground, and this is how you rule creation.
“A mind that is enlightened is free from all conditioning.”
“Enlightenment is not of time, it is not a process.”
“To be free from all conditioning which also implies to be a light to yourself completely.”
“And not depend on any person, any idea, any teacher psychologically.”
but till when I should free my conditioning? Natural tendency to learn walking, for example, is part of my conditioning... the evolution thought me
@Lorenzo Barghini
"The instincts are set up to deal with simple situations that may occur in the Stone Age. In our very complicated society they’re not very adequate. For example there is no instinct that tells you not to touch electric wires, so we have to be told that. Things that may be attractive to the senses we have to be told that they’re poisonous and that overrides the instinct. The suggestion is that the thought process can override the instincts in any case, because it has something in it which we can call necessity, the sense of necessity. If something is absolutely necessary it overrides every instinct.
If you’ve been thinking that the people of that category are bad, it becomes a program and you see them as bad and you respond immediately. If you tell your children that, that’s how they’re going to behave, automatically. The memory springs into action like a program. You don’t have the time to see it happening and you think that that’s the reality and the truth.
We need that, because if you’re going to drive a car, a lot of thought goes in. We have to learn all sorts of things that we’re ought to be doing. It becomes a part of our program so that we could respond immediately, rather than have to think. If you took time to think, the response would be too late. So we need this possibility of making thought a program in all sorts of ways, yet it’s dangerous. Because without noticing it the program could spring into action, telling us - these people are bad, I must kill such and such person, under such conditions I must do this, I’m this sort of person, they’re that sort of person and we’ll never meet. Thought could tell us all that like a program, so we see it that way. It affects our perception, it affects our whole attitude, the adrenaline.
For example if you’re into a dark place, and people have said that there are assailants in the neighborhood and you see a shadow your thought immediately makes you jump. If you didn’t know that there are assailants you’d do nothing. Or if you look again and you see that it’s a shadow, it’s all gone. "
Creative intelligence must be awakened in man.
Creative intelligence must be awakened in man.
Sarah Bohm
Misspelled.
Thought thought he farted, but shit his pants.
Sarl does a better job of communicating than David Bohm. She's lovely.
Is an 'A' grade student 'intelligent', or just a very adept copyist? A wonderful box-ticker? Very good at doing as s/he is told? Trying to please their parents? Desperate to be seen as 'superior', or 'wise'? Thinking only about the rewards for ticking the reward givers boxes in the order the reward giver wants them ticked? Subservient through apathy and/or greed?
More importantly, would a true intelligence not allow itself a margin of error, just to avoid these possible self-destructive pitfalls? Or at least consider their possibility?
Really not clear what the point of any of this is, or what either of them are talking about.
Try "What is really Happening on our Planet."
Not sure I like this particular video.
Mr. David bohm missed Krishnamurthy........
How ?
My impession is David got the essence
Completely misguided. We now know because of Emotional (Affective) Neuroscience, Interpersonal Neurobiology and Polyvagal Theory that this dare I say unconscious acculturation (oops conditioning) to the language of the brain as a computer program or complex machine which is essentially conditioning and the behaviorist tacit assumption here about changing the program is not partly but entirely wrong. Ironically, the latter is rather harsh and disparaging view of mankind in his/her necessity to "overcome" negative conditioning to be free from conditioned response.
All relations are intersubjective relations and all behaviors cannot so reductionistically and simplistically be viewed with respect to various conditions of conditioning or "programming" but rather as emergent and adaptive responses to interoceptive feelings of ventral vagal (parasympathetic) safety, or our sympathetic nervous system mobilized for adaptive fight/flight responses or worse when that is not available parasympathetic withdrawal/shutdown responses. Our subcortical dominates when in fight/flight and therefore we do not have access to the executive functioning prefrontal aspects of the brain.
Essentially, as this is not the place for it, it is about, "How do we cultivate feeling of underlying safety with-and-between each other which then shifts our state of being intersubjectively?". In other words, it is NOT about escape or overcoming or unconditioning or whatever verbiage/adjective you prefer. We understand now more so from a consciousness-autonomic perspective how our biopsychosocial relatededness and the corresponding states of consciousness unfolds. A deeper understanding of the implicate order."
🇺🇳18:36
So this American wants to defie 25 000 years old ideas of the illuminated gurus???
First, where did you get this specific age of these advaita/vedanta ideas? Second, rather than defying them, Bohm worked with Krishnamurthi to spread them. Just correcting your mistaken beliefs.
He is not defying..you can say he is just questioning or verifying it instead of believing " the ancient words or teachings "
And what did people do? Make more programing and distraction from the reality this world is mostly bat shit crazy and hey its really good for profit margins.
I recommend dzogchen meditation go get introduction in dzogchen it was not availble for the public during krishnamurtis time
grandiosidade de sabedoria...
Thank you
❤️