i have realized another ignored reason for hand pain after long uses of mouse is, the height distance between desk and chair, it creates a lot of issue sometimes and we ignore it and think it is hand or mouse, great stuff as always though. very informative.
thank u! thats a good point yea, i dont feel qualified to talk abt it in a video but what ive found is that if i stick my forearm out 90 degrees the desk should be just about under it without any straining. whats been ur experience with this?
@@ViscoseOCE i have been struggling in this height issue for years, finally i got my desk height reduced and what i found a good relaxing position for long hours is where chair height is consistent with these condition :
1-feet should be able to touch ground with 70-80 degree angle to keep it relaxed 2-upper arm should make a down 80-90% angle and lower arm should be on desk without much pressure and no lifting obvious to keep hand relaxed 3-screen top should be making a straight line with your eye angle,or monitoir can be a bit lower, becasue its hard to look up but much easy to look down 4-monitor distance with eyes should be close enough so you don't go closer to screen while playing. but it you should be able to see full screen with rotating your neck. i prefer good longevity option, i am still exploring with my experience and time, hope these point makes sense.
@@ViscoseOCE That's around the height i've settled on too and seems to be what most ergonomics experts recommend. I used the G602 for a while and was always sitting way too low. it absolutely murdered my wrist. Thank god I changed mice, and the way I sat.
Just yesterday I put together my desk from Ikea because I felt this was a problem for me. Combined height of the legs and desk is about 25" which is a lot more comfortable compared to my previous desk of 30". A lot of legs for desks don't adjust that low which is such a shame because I feel that a lot of people will use a desk that is too high because they cant even easily test one at a lower possibly more comfortable position.
thank you so much, i finally decide to stop copying whatever grip i saw you used from your last highlight and go whatever comfortable for me, palm for flick and claw for tracking, no more tiring and my performance also skyrocket
This is really interesting and insightful, when I'm aim training I always found myself changing my grip in some way depending on what I was training and it made me think I was doing it to chase a new highscore rather than trying to improve. Thanks for talking about this!
So deep about this topic, i used to play g50'2 and still in palm grip at a gpx, moving to op18k, feels like im going to face the same situation because its time to try claw, great video vis!
As a fingertip enjoyier I think claw grip is also really good. It's up to individual preferences and the mouse you are using. Unfortunately, most mice don't have a very good shape for fingertip grip.
Viscose I missed your video so muchhhh! Actually helpful to have a decent insight from proven aimer on mouse grip cuz ive been struggling on mine. tyty
I actually noticed that after getting a smaller mouse and adding those adhesive rubber grips on the main buttons, my mouse grip went from a palm grip to a weird claw fingertip variation... that fits me perfectly, as weird as that combo may sound. also glad that you finally found that dusty old note with your password on it
Awesome vid once again Vis! For some reason I always felt like I “should” switch to claw grip for balance at the back of my mind, so hearing this really helps me just full send fingertip, thanks for that!
Shape and sensor position will also have a role in how you end up gripping your mouse. I'm a claw gripper but can't grip the GPX for example because its shape doesn't really allow it. It kinda forces you to fingertip or palm it.
Thank you , Ive been thinking about my grip lately and you have given me a better picture about this topic. I might try out the fingertip grip but if it doesnt work im gonna stick to my claw grip
A thing that helped me with choosing a grip style and mouse later on was Rocket Jump Ninjas videos and website. He goes very in-depth about every aspect of a mouse and your grip.
This was very helpful. I obsess over grip and you addressed all the reasons why I obsess over it so thanks a bunch! Now I just wish I could understand how you control recoil. Maybe some day. 🥰
Quite literally the most real thing in this video, I switch my grip subconsciously depending on what situation, game or task im performing at that very moment, or am about to perform, it was something that just happens when you switch a lot, at least for me it did.
I call my grip "relaxed, tilted claw" or "pencil claw". I tend to grip my mouse in a way I'd hold a pencil. Because I sit ergonomically I have to tilt my hand in order to prevent bone cross in my wrist. Also, my pinky finger sticks outwards by about 3mm, so any mouse with hourglas shape/front flare outs cause me extreame pain and discomfort. I've found only 2 mice that don't cause me any discomfort/stiffness and those are 1. Haste 2 Mini and 2. OP1we. It was a long journey through 15+ different gaming mice.
been playing fingertip all my life and now switched to palmgrip after watching this video and i feel so much comfortable on val. with fingertip on tacfps i seem to tense and my aim goes everywhere but with palmgrip it makes me control the mouse. great video ♥
I have something like a finger-claw grip where the ring finger is at the very beginning of the mouse and the little fingers are below the middle.. I don’t know why, but it’s really convenient for me to hold it like that. When I try to pick up the mouse as you showed, my sight starts to shake. But from time to time I will try to learn how to hold the mouse with all the grips that you showed in this video. Thanks for the video, it really helps me understand because there are very few videos on this topic
I just recently discovered your channel through your mouse pad speed google doc + Orbital project you're a part of. Great stuff! The aim training subreddit can be a bit elitist, but your content is informative and chill, so thank you! Also great BFV clips! Battlefield's comp & creator scene leaves a lot to be desired.
You naturally use the grip that your mouse and hand size allows you to be most comfortable with without strain . For example I have large hands so a navigate toward fingertip/claw grip with a smaller, lighter mouse that I can move manipulate with just my fingertips while resting my palm in one place for the most part preventing wrist fatigue.
Switched recently from years of fingertip to claw because i never got rid of shaky flicks. Now it feels like the perfect balance of stability and range of motion.
W educational video as always. I find that my grip changes depending on the kind of aiming im doing as well. I notice when I play static scenarios or tack fps games, I would gravitate naturally towards a fingertip grip because the micro adjustments fingertip gives in those aiming scenarios are nessesary to perform well for me.
I feel like more people should talk about the angle you hold your mouse. In my opinion its as important as your grip. I hold my mouse slightly tilted to the left which makes my flicks towards that side harder while also not allowing me to use my side buttons for example. I use it mainly because its comfortable and holding the mouse perfectly upwards causes wrist pain for me.
great video, I agree with your thoughts. From my personal experience and understanding, mouse grip does not matter (and i mean you shouldn't think about it). I believe mouse shapes matter way more like you covered. The real issue you should worry about is how you use ur arm and wrist to move the mouse in whatever game/situation. It's way more important to find a mouse you like shape wise and just try it out. The more you use it, your grip will slowly gravitate to its comfort state. If you don't, find whats the issue and look for a mouse that reduces the uncomfortability.
Well, in my opinion there's one more thing at least to add into the equation of mouse grip. You're spot on with "if no grip feels right, start experimenting with shapes". I'd say that not only shapes, but also a big thing: posture. Having the base of the palm on or off the mousepad, forearm pronation/supination and so on. But at the same time 100% agree there's little to no benefit of overthinking it. Like I tried to put grip tape on the spots I placed my fingers at one day, and the next day I played worse. Probably just because of having that conscious stress of placing my fingers on that grip tape haha. Just an example for some context: I used to play with an MX518 with a 1-3-1 and a hover for a long time. When the mouse broke I couldn't use any other shape thinking I'm an alien. It took me a couple of years of playing through pain with different shapes to realize that my right shoulder posture should be corrected (it was rotated forward and dropped low). Right now I can use any mouse and any grip with reasonable comfort just because the whole chain of shoulder, forearm, wrist and palm are in a much better position 😱
Viscose change the “Headset” to “headphones” because it does not have microphone! People will get confused xDD Anyways nice video! When i was a kid i used to play with fingertip and claw’ish grip style, and went to palm and back to fingertip grip! The problem is that i used to have cheaper mice back in the day that was way smaller, and that forced me to play with fingertip grip! And then i purchased my first razer mouse (Deathadder) and without me noticing, i went to palm grip, which made me play worse… and i was searching what was holding me back until i found out what grip i’m using… and yeah, i completely forgot at the time what grip i used before (because fingertip grip for me is the most neutral and most comfortable grip) so after many…many years of searching, i found out that i was a fingertip grip user back in the days (I checked my older videos of me playing, my brother captured me) so i went back and tried it out and it was a much better feel overall for many months and years now!
Your point about fingertip grip making your aim shaky when you tense your fingers is exactly why my aim became 5x better when I started using 10cm/360 sens. Before I used to play on around 20cm/360, which is still high, but my problem was that I kwpt tensing my fingers to do flicks, which ended up massively hindering my overall aim. Ever since I switched to a 10cm/360 which meant I could casually make flicks without much effort, and practice on precision my aim became 5x better.
Viscose i have three questions for you if you don't mind answering them. 1. What do you use for aim training? 2. What courses do you recommend on that aim training? 3. What's your opinion on raw accel (program for aiming) and should it be used to further better my aim?
hi! personally i aimtrain on kovaaks mainly, it has the widest range of scenarios and best scenarios otu of aim of the mainstream aimtrainers IMO voltaic has some good resources to get started, i personally dont play any routines but i try to choose out scenarios to target weaknesses i notice when playing th-cam.com/video/PpHXByUEYbA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=MEdSk-0yyYfQwHEg this is a vid i made a few months back covering my thoughts on accel! hope its helpful
I genuinely think you're one of, if not the only youtuber who genuinely knows what they're talking about when it comes to improvement on your aiming mechanics. Might be bias because I've had almost exactly the same experiential learning moments while reaching the upper echelon mechanically. What are your thoughts on the floating wrist claw (d0nk, tenz)? been messing with it and man... the lack of friction and pressure downwards might actually improve both speed and control, it might actually be the "secret mouse grip" for any game lmfao.
Hey Viscose! I was wondering if you could do a video on the state of FPS games, which ones are your favorite currently, and maybe just an overview of some of the bigger titles, as well maybe upcoming releases you're excited about. Would love to see that!
would love to see a video where you discuss what you think is the best way to improve your aim is, what training methods are more efficient than others, what do you do to train for one game or the other, does training for more than an hour a day backfire, should you train before or after your games, etc. love your perspective on both peripherals and training from your videos so far
that is waaaay too much for a single vid haha but its something i def wanna cover more in the future! im planning on making an onboarding guide of sorts for ppl getting into aimtraining
I am NOWHERE near as qualified as Viscose but i can relay some opinions and thoughts i've heard from other top players and good players in general. She can correct me on any misconceptions i might have to both make sure i dont misinform people and i also learn from it. "what training methods are more efficient than others": One thing that'll make it easier to visualize aim training is thinking about it like the gym, because what you are practically doing is the same thing. You are training specific muscle groups to have better control/strength on them, but thats not where it ends. One big thing with weight loss and weight gain is SUSTAINABILITY > EVERYTHING. Whatever you do, you gotta make sure you're able to keep it up for a long period of time. If you find that training 30 minutes a day is more sustainable than 1 hour a day, go for it. You're keeping your focus and getting more efficient results because you're keeping your focus for all of that 30 minutes rather than getting bored halfway thru a 1 hour training session and autopiloting. Another thing is enjoyment. Play scenarios and create routines off of what you're weak at, but also try to make it enjoyable, play scenarios you find fun. Of Course there's some methods that have big vouches from a lot of respectable people, for example VDim seems to be the best way to grind benchmarks, but if you can't keep up with the routine you're objectively losing progress compared to grinding them however you enjoy it. "what do you do to train for one game or the other": This is just based on what the game uses. TacFPSs like Valorant and CSGO benefit from Static, Dynamic and some speedTS. Games with higher TTKs like Apex and Overwatch benefit more from Smooth and Reactive tracking, but you also have to keep in mind that it is almost always better to improve your aim overall. Improving your Static Clicking will unironically improve your Smooth and Reactive tracking as well for example, because you're still gaining more control of your muscles that are used during Static, and that will invertedly improve your tracking as well. "does training for more than an hour a day backfire": Again, back to the gym comparison. A lot of people who go to the gym for muscle gain usually have 1 hour to 1 hour 30 workouts and also put in a day or 2 of rest days for the muscle groups they trained that day. *RECOVERY TIME IS AS IMPORTANT AS TRAINING*. For aim training, the recovery is more cognitive rather than muscle related, but it still works. Training for more than 1 hour a day isnt necessarily bad, but what matters more is the consecutive number of hours you're training. Do you train for 2 hours straight or do you have 4 30 minute sessions in a day? Because that is a huge difference. "should you train before or after your games": I dont remember who i heard it from (it might have been Viscose lol) but its been working pretty well for me. Before i hop on a game, i warm up for 30 minutes-ish with a routine i made for the game (its apex for me, so its a mix of dynamic clicking and reactive/smooth tracking), and after im done with the game I *SPECIFICALLY TRAIN STUFF I NOTICED I WAS STRUGGLING ON*. I can't hit my wingman shots? Okay i'll do some dynamic clicking today. Did i have problems with too much tension while tracking targets? I'll do some reactive tracking etc. etc.
@@Phos7x thanks for sharing this with me, very insightful and validated me that i'm on the right track to improve. my main game is valo and i'm following woohoojin's aim routine (30mins before bed) everyday but since it's summer i have a bit more time on my hands and i'm motivated to improve
I agree with this assessment for beginner advice, but not so much for a really advanced aimer. I think even a slight grip change can dictate how much fingertip adjustment potential or wrist mobility you have. I certainly dont believe its intuitive for everyone to subconciously switch to the most beneficial grip to use for the given situation. Maybe most comfortable is somewhat true, but these arent the same. Watching the whole video, I think we at least somewhat agree but you lead with "it doesnt matter". My opinion is it really doesnt matter until youre trying to fine tune, then to that person I would say "experiment and think about how that changes the mechanics of how you can utilize the mouse". Get a good understanding of the tradeoffs and use cases. Then from there pick the one that suits what you need/most consistent.
I am an Overwatch 2 Player and I have definitely had the most success with fingertip grip just because how much movement you have to make compared to other games.
I've been going through the same journey and for the longest time was using some weird pincer claw grip. Target acquisition was very good, but tracking stability was dog. I now settled for claw grip too after many hours of practising and going through many mice. I now settled for both a Viper v3 Pro and an OP1 8K which is also in the video I believe.
I had sort of the same process, except I never palmed (my hands are too big to palm any mouse), but I went from Clawing a deathadder, to Clawing a Sensei 310, to fingertipping a GPW, to finally Hybrid claw-fingertipping a GPX, and here I am today. Ok maybe I simplified it a bit, since I've owned more mice, but that's the process in a nutshell.
I play FPS games and near-constantly switch to gripping with fingertips, or pinching the sides, but the standard is resting my palm on the mouse. I regularly played a sniper in RTCW:ET, which requires incredibly fast vertical movement (2-3 shots per second, fighting a _very_ high recoil) and fine movement in basically the same motion..
The reasons for switching to fingertip grip make me think of using mouse acceleration (not the windows enhanced pointer precision but one that sets the acceleration curve to something predictable)
What I always felt is the way you aim makes a way bigger differences. I'm used to playing CS playing with a fingertip grip and just moving my wrist, but everytime I come back to Apex I have to train myself on moving my whole arm again, because you just can't track that well with just wrist movement.
hello!!! I am a new subscriber and the way you aim in any game is incredible. It is surprising. The dedication I give to games personally is high, not as high as you, but I definitely do it. Now I have a very significant problem and I think I am not the only one who has this problem. How do I do if I'm very good at Counter Strike and in Valorant I don't feel the same sensitivity. The change in sensitivities in different games is super strange and it's not exactly known if it's because of the cm length or just the sensation of microcorrections or long flicks.
Fingertip like you said sounds the best in theory. But long term it feels awful for me. No stability, fingers get tired, and the improved control is overrated. If you do claw palm combined you can still use your arm for 95% of the time and still have enough movement in your fingers to make micro adjustments.
@@ViscoseOCE XDDD Yeah i did the same. I actually had a WW fuel injector with 4 holo Incineration stickers for a good price on CSmoney sale but i missed all other things. I was doing the same on servers. Usually it was m9 lore mith those wraps. Cs has so many beautiful yellow skins to make a solid set. Missing deagle btw :)
I play palm and personally I think the best light mouse you can buy for palm grip, which also has great software and no issues out of the box, is lamzu thorn 4k. Using a brick like G502 is crazy
*VIDEO IDEA* Can you pls make a video talking about the benefits of claw grip and why you should switch to claw grip and how to actually grip your mouse for it to be considerd a claw grip bc im debating whether i should switch from fingertip grip to claw grip bc of the downsides of fingertip grip like you mentioned
I've always used fingertip grip. It came natural to me. And was areally nice for me when i played CS:GO since i was awper and had to do big flicks fast. But i was struggling as a rifler due to MA. Switched to hard pad and micro adjustments was no issue anymore. Highly recommend for anyone using fingertip to get a hard pad.
My mouse grip and mouse type was easy for me., plastics make my hand sweat so nothing in my palm was a comfort must.. thus I am a pincer claw/fingertip mouse enjoyer
I use a similar grip, I relaxed fingertip as a baseline and whenever I do faster motions I usually have palm contact. The area where my palm contacts even changes depending on the position of the mouse relative to my hand. Many years ago I used palm grip when I was playing on a very slow mousepad and a mouse with a thick, heavy wire and I automatically transitioned to that new grip over time when I replaced the wire with a paracord and got a faster mousepad. Around that time I wanted to get a new mouse so I was trying to figure out what grip I was using and I was super confused because my new grip was changing between fingertip and claw but I still sometimes palmed the mouse back then so I basically used all 3 grip styles. And I'm still not sure if my current grip is more of a fingertip or a claw grip. I guess it's both.
Hey do you stare at the target for all scenarios or just tracking scenarios? Idk if I'm overthinking it but target conformation feels better in static scenarios and games ilke Valorant when focusing on the crosshair rather than the target. Part of me wants to focus on the target instead though because ever since I started focusing on the target in tracklng heavy scenarios/games, my aims improved drastically. I'm confused on whether you should always focus on the target, which would benefit you in the long run, or just do what's best per scenario.
Thank you for the vid, very insightful. Just to clarify, you do microadjust vertically with fingers on a regular basis, right? Even though mainly you microadjust with the wrist since you're using claw grip
@@ViscoseOCE thank you for your answer, last question i promise! so when you do these vertical adjustments, doesn’t this shortly transition you into a fingertip grip? because for you to be able to move vertically, you should break the contact with the inside of your palm, am i right? and after the vertical movement you go back into the neutral claw grip with solid palm contact?
when i game, like dependable on what genra of games, i change my grip on mouse, and sometimes while in a match i change grib style, like if my hand feel uncortable in that position for to loong, than i change it abit to like have a more comfortable grib while also aim decently (with my newbie aim) but in a generally sens, working on adaptabillity, is a good way to get a better understanding of ur mouse, and how u wanna aim in a game, like what sens and dpi feels right, i tend to play games over meny different genra, so i rather work on learning to fast adapt to things than going for like the constant same sens and dpi, i adapt to how fast im aiming and games while also feeling how much i wanna move my mouse from side to side
I've always used fingertips. I think it's just how it is right from the start and my first ever serious mouse was also the g502 and even then I also used fingertips. I think it's because when I was a child there's never much mouse space in my mousepad. It was always one of those cheap office mousepad so I ended up picking up fingertips grip because of the need for high dpi to compensate the lack of space
about the downside you named on fingertip, that is due to the shape on the mouse mostly, I am a aim purist so i use one of those fingertip small mice, and since i switched to them they have been very good at making my aim insanely consistent with flicks especially and micro adjustments
So funny how many of us smaller handed gamer gremlins started with the the g502. I'll never forget grabbing the mm710 for the first time. #brickrecovery
As a VT plat I also noticed I was doing this and was wondering if it was ok or a technique I needed to fix. Thanks for the answer. I have another question, on precise tracking I notice I get better scores when locking my wrist and using mostly arm aiming. Is this correct technique or should I improve my wrist smoothness so I can also use it?
I've been playing Apex and I've always been concerned about my aim. It wasn't until almost two years later that I realized my mouse was too big for my hand (Razer Deathadder). I decided to switch to the Viper Mini, and after playing a few games, I noticed how much easier and more comfortable it was. However, I am still trying to determine the best sensitivity for my mouse. Recently, I discovered that my mouse has a high LOD, which is not what I'm looking for. What other mice might be a better alternative to the Viper Mini? Awesome video btw.
vancer recently released a new mouse called the vancer thrash and its very close to the viper mini in terms of shape if u like that shape, the op1 is my go to recommendation otherwise bc its just so comfortable for smaller hands and great value for money
got a question regarding grip: should your pinky finger be involved "good" into controlling the mouse? I often feel that I rely more on the ring finger and pinky is there just relaxed, but I saw that a lot of people actually rely on thumb and pinky. what do you think?
I found this video very helpful I have had so many mouse grip problems for 2 years, I have tried so many different things. My natural mouse grip hurts the right side of my hand and can hurt near my shoulder blade this could be because I don’t use my fingers when aiming and I don’t know how to fix that. But with my natural mouse grip I can aim the best so switching never really felt right and my aim was always terrible. It could be time for a new mouse but I could just be holding the mouse wrong entirely. Also I use a kinda relaxed claw grip where my hand is holding more of the right side of my mouse, I’m using the glorious model o wireless.
my natural mouse grip is a palm grip but for some reason I hold it with my hand more to the left which makes me hold my mouse a little inclined to the left. I'm entirely used to it though and it works great for me, though I have considered making adjustments in the past
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She remembered the upload button LETSSGOOOOO!!!!!
i have realized another ignored reason for hand pain after long uses of mouse is, the height distance between desk and chair, it creates a lot of issue sometimes and we ignore it and think it is hand or mouse,
great stuff as always though. very informative.
thank u! thats a good point yea, i dont feel qualified to talk abt it in a video but what ive found is that if i stick my forearm out 90 degrees the desk should be just about under it without any straining. whats been ur experience with this?
@@ViscoseOCE i have been struggling in this height issue for years,
finally i got my desk height reduced
and what i found a good relaxing position for long hours is where chair height is consistent with these condition :
1-feet should be able to touch ground with 70-80 degree angle to keep it relaxed
2-upper arm should make a down 80-90% angle and lower arm should be on desk without much pressure and no lifting obvious to keep hand relaxed
3-screen top should be making a straight line with your eye angle,or monitoir can be a bit lower, becasue its hard to look up but much easy to look down
4-monitor distance with eyes should be close enough so you don't go closer to screen while playing. but it you should be able to see full screen with rotating your neck.
i prefer good longevity option, i am still exploring with my experience and time,
hope these point makes sense.
@@ViscoseOCE That's around the height i've settled on too and seems to be what most ergonomics experts recommend. I used the G602 for a while and was always sitting way too low. it absolutely murdered my wrist. Thank god I changed mice, and the way I sat.
Struth has a couple really good videos on how posture affects your aim
Just yesterday I put together my desk from Ikea because I felt this was a problem for me. Combined height of the legs and desk is about 25" which is a lot more comfortable compared to my previous desk of 30". A lot of legs for desks don't adjust that low which is such a shame because I feel that a lot of people will use a desk that is too high because they cant even easily test one at a lower possibly more comfortable position.
WAKE UP NEW VISCOSE VIDEO JUST DROPPED
YIPPEE
thank you so much, i finally decide to stop copying whatever grip i saw you used from your last highlight and go whatever comfortable for me, palm for flick and claw for tracking, no more tiring and my performance also skyrocket
Damn i missed your videos. Have rewatched your old ones like 10 times just cause they're so satisfying
"Be water my friend"
This is really interesting and insightful, when I'm aim training I always found myself changing my grip in some way depending on what I was training and it made me think I was doing it to chase a new highscore rather than trying to improve. Thanks for talking about this!
This was a great video! I’ve been struggling with overthinking this lately. Actually just took every single anxiety I had about it away
I really hope you continue to upload more of these videos or longer videos of your gameplay like the apex scrims, they are very enjoyable to watch!
i didnt know anyone actually watched vids like the apex scrims ones haha, thanks! ill give it some thought
Your videos are always well made and very informative, always worth watching.
So deep about this topic, i used to play g50'2 and still in palm grip at a gpx, moving to op18k, feels like im going to face the same situation because its time to try claw, great video vis!
As a fingertip enjoyier I think claw grip is also really good. It's up to individual preferences and the mouse you are using. Unfortunately, most mice don't have a very good shape for fingertip grip.
thank you! you're perspective has steadily improved my aim!
Amazing quality as always 🙌🏾
already know this video is gonna be another classic viscose banger, W
Viscose I missed your video so muchhhh! Actually helpful to have a decent insight from proven aimer on mouse grip cuz ive been struggling on mine. tyty
I actually noticed that after getting a smaller mouse and adding those adhesive rubber grips on the main buttons, my mouse grip went from a palm grip to a weird claw fingertip variation... that fits me perfectly, as weird as that combo may sound.
also glad that you finally found that dusty old note with your password on it
Awesome vid once again Vis! For some reason I always felt like I “should” switch to claw grip for balance at the back of my mind, so hearing this really helps me just full send fingertip, thanks for that!
YO i loved the music in the bg always been a fan of those lofi artists and just makes the vid more pleasant overall i think
ty!! im rly glad ppl do notice those haha, ill keep including similar songs :>
Shape and sensor position will also have a role in how you end up gripping your mouse. I'm a claw gripper but can't grip the GPX for example because its shape doesn't really allow it. It kinda forces you to fingertip or palm it.
Thank you , Ive been thinking about my grip lately and you have given me a better picture about this topic. I might try out the fingertip grip but if it doesnt work im gonna stick to my claw grip
Another great vid! I've missed this high quality content.
A thing that helped me with choosing a grip style and mouse later on was Rocket Jump Ninjas videos and website. He goes very in-depth about every aspect of a mouse and your grip.
another great and informative video by Viscose!
This was very helpful. I obsess over grip and you addressed all the reasons why I obsess over it so thanks a bunch! Now I just wish I could understand how you control recoil. Maybe some day. 🥰
Quite literally the most real thing in this video, I switch my grip subconsciously depending on what situation, game or task im performing at that very moment, or am about to perform, it was something that just happens when you switch a lot, at least for me it did.
I call my grip "relaxed, tilted claw" or "pencil claw". I tend to grip my mouse in a way I'd hold a pencil. Because I sit ergonomically I have to tilt my hand in order to prevent bone cross in my wrist. Also, my pinky finger sticks outwards by about 3mm, so any mouse with hourglas shape/front flare outs cause me extreame pain and discomfort. I've found only 2 mice that don't cause me any discomfort/stiffness and those are 1. Haste 2 Mini and 2. OP1we. It was a long journey through 15+ different gaming mice.
been playing fingertip all my life and now switched to palmgrip after watching this video and i feel so much comfortable on val. with fingertip on tacfps i seem to tense and my aim goes everywhere but with palmgrip it makes me control the mouse. great video ♥
I have something like a finger-claw grip where the ring finger is at the very beginning of the mouse and the little fingers are below the middle.. I don’t know why, but it’s really convenient for me to hold it like that. When I try to pick up the mouse as you showed, my sight starts to shake. But from time to time I will try to learn how to hold the mouse with all the grips that you showed in this video. Thanks for the video, it really helps me understand because there are very few videos on this topic
I just recently discovered your channel through your mouse pad speed google doc + Orbital project you're a part of. Great stuff! The aim training subreddit can be a bit elitist, but your content is informative and chill, so thank you!
Also great BFV clips! Battlefield's comp & creator scene leaves a lot to be desired.
MISSED THE UPLOADS MY GOAT WELCOME BACKK
You naturally use the grip that your mouse and hand size allows you to be most comfortable with without strain . For example I have large hands so a navigate toward fingertip/claw grip with a smaller, lighter mouse that I can move manipulate with just my fingertips while resting my palm in one place for the most part preventing wrist fatigue.
damn, I was always under the mindset that your grip should always be exactly the same every time so I'm glad you said it can be malleable
Switched recently from years of fingertip to claw because i never got rid of shaky flicks. Now it feels like the perfect balance of stability and range of motion.
This is the first video on the topic that makes sense to me. Thankyou
W educational video as always. I find that my grip changes depending on the kind of aiming im doing as well. I notice when I play static scenarios or tack fps games, I would gravitate naturally towards a fingertip grip because the micro adjustments fingertip gives in those aiming scenarios are nessesary to perform well for me.
New Viscose information video 😋
I feel like more people should talk about the angle you hold your mouse. In my opinion its as important as your grip. I hold my mouse slightly tilted to the left which makes my flicks towards that side harder while also not allowing me to use my side buttons for example. I use it mainly because its comfortable and holding the mouse perfectly upwards causes wrist pain for me.
Thanks for the new vid. It would be great if you made a video on how to train your aim, for newbs and advanced players
great video, I agree with your thoughts. From my personal experience and understanding, mouse grip does not matter (and i mean you shouldn't think about it). I believe mouse shapes matter way more like you covered. The real issue you should worry about is how you use ur arm and wrist to move the mouse in whatever game/situation. It's way more important to find a mouse you like shape wise and just try it out. The more you use it, your grip will slowly gravitate to its comfort state. If you don't, find whats the issue and look for a mouse that reduces the uncomfortability.
Well, in my opinion there's one more thing at least to add into the equation of mouse grip. You're spot on with "if no grip feels right, start experimenting with shapes". I'd say that not only shapes, but also a big thing: posture. Having the base of the palm on or off the mousepad, forearm pronation/supination and so on.
But at the same time 100% agree there's little to no benefit of overthinking it. Like I tried to put grip tape on the spots I placed my fingers at one day, and the next day I played worse. Probably just because of having that conscious stress of placing my fingers on that grip tape haha.
Just an example for some context:
I used to play with an MX518 with a 1-3-1 and a hover for a long time. When the mouse broke I couldn't use any other shape thinking I'm an alien. It took me a couple of years of playing through pain with different shapes to realize that my right shoulder posture should be corrected (it was rotated forward and dropped low). Right now I can use any mouse and any grip with reasonable comfort just because the whole chain of shoulder, forearm, wrist and palm are in a much better position 😱
Great video, detailed and fantastic explanation of why there is no perfect grip!
Nah Viscose videos are actually such good topics with such good coverage
Viscose change the “Headset” to “headphones” because it does not have microphone! People will get confused xDD
Anyways nice video! When i was a kid i used to play with fingertip and claw’ish grip style, and went to palm and back to fingertip grip!
The problem is that i used to have cheaper mice back in the day that was way smaller, and that forced me to play with fingertip grip! And then i purchased my first razer mouse (Deathadder) and without me noticing, i went to palm grip, which made me play worse… and i was searching what was holding me back until i found out what grip i’m using… and yeah, i completely forgot at the time what grip i used before (because fingertip grip for me is the most neutral and most comfortable grip) so after many…many years of searching, i found out that i was a fingertip grip user back in the days (I checked my older videos of me playing, my brother captured me) so i went back and tried it out and it was a much better feel overall for many months and years now!
Your point about fingertip grip making your aim shaky when you tense your fingers is exactly why my aim became 5x better when I started using 10cm/360 sens. Before I used to play on around 20cm/360, which is still high, but my problem was that I kwpt tensing my fingers to do flicks, which ended up massively hindering my overall aim. Ever since I switched to a 10cm/360 which meant I could casually make flicks without much effort, and practice on precision my aim became 5x better.
Viscose i have three questions for you if you don't mind answering them.
1. What do you use for aim training?
2. What courses do you recommend on that aim training?
3. What's your opinion on raw accel (program for aiming) and should it be used to further better my aim?
hi!
personally i aimtrain on kovaaks mainly, it has the widest range of scenarios and best scenarios otu of aim of the mainstream aimtrainers IMO
voltaic has some good resources to get started, i personally dont play any routines but i try to choose out scenarios to target weaknesses i notice when playing
th-cam.com/video/PpHXByUEYbA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=MEdSk-0yyYfQwHEg this is a vid i made a few months back covering my thoughts on accel! hope its helpful
@@ViscoseOCE Never noticed you messaged, sorry but thanks viscose.
I just switched to a much wider mouse and this makes so much sense rn! Ok, back to not thinking about it.
her voice is so calming to listen to
I genuinely think you're one of, if not the only youtuber who genuinely knows what they're talking about when it comes to improvement on your aiming mechanics. Might be bias because I've had almost exactly the same experiential learning moments while reaching the upper echelon mechanically. What are your thoughts on the floating wrist claw (d0nk, tenz)? been messing with it and man... the lack of friction and pressure downwards might actually improve both speed and control, it might actually be the "secret mouse grip" for any game lmfao.
Thank you for making an objectively correct video and debunking the rabbithole's clickbait
Hey Viscose! I was wondering if you could do a video on the state of FPS games, which ones are your favorite currently, and maybe just an overview of some of the bigger titles, as well maybe upcoming releases you're excited about. Would love to see that!
would love to see a video where you discuss what you think is the best way to improve your aim is, what training methods are more efficient than others, what do you do to train for one game or the other, does training for more than an hour a day backfire, should you train before or after your games, etc.
love your perspective on both peripherals and training from your videos so far
that is waaaay too much for a single vid haha but its something i def wanna cover more in the future! im planning on making an onboarding guide of sorts for ppl getting into aimtraining
I am NOWHERE near as qualified as Viscose but i can relay some opinions and thoughts i've heard from other top players and good players in general. She can correct me on any misconceptions i might have to both make sure i dont misinform people and i also learn from it.
"what training methods are more efficient than others":
One thing that'll make it easier to visualize aim training is thinking about it like the gym, because what you are practically doing is the same thing. You are training specific muscle groups to have better control/strength on them, but thats not where it ends. One big thing with weight loss and weight gain is SUSTAINABILITY > EVERYTHING. Whatever you do, you gotta make sure you're able to keep it up for a long period of time. If you find that training 30 minutes a day is more sustainable than 1 hour a day, go for it. You're keeping your focus and getting more efficient results because you're keeping your focus for all of that 30 minutes rather than getting bored halfway thru a 1 hour training session and autopiloting.
Another thing is enjoyment. Play scenarios and create routines off of what you're weak at, but also try to make it enjoyable, play scenarios you find fun.
Of Course there's some methods that have big vouches from a lot of respectable people, for example VDim seems to be the best way to grind benchmarks, but if you can't keep up with the routine you're objectively losing progress compared to grinding them however you enjoy it.
"what do you do to train for one game or the other":
This is just based on what the game uses. TacFPSs like Valorant and CSGO benefit from Static, Dynamic and some speedTS. Games with higher TTKs like Apex and Overwatch benefit more from Smooth and Reactive tracking, but you also have to keep in mind that it is almost always better to improve your aim overall. Improving your Static Clicking will unironically improve your Smooth and Reactive tracking as well for example, because you're still gaining more control of your muscles that are used during Static, and that will invertedly improve your tracking as well.
"does training for more than an hour a day backfire":
Again, back to the gym comparison. A lot of people who go to the gym for muscle gain usually have 1 hour to 1 hour 30 workouts and also put in a day or 2 of rest days for the muscle groups they trained that day. *RECOVERY TIME IS AS IMPORTANT AS TRAINING*. For aim training, the recovery is more cognitive rather than muscle related, but it still works. Training for more than 1 hour a day isnt necessarily bad, but what matters more is the consecutive number of hours you're training. Do you train for 2 hours straight or do you have 4 30 minute sessions in a day? Because that is a huge difference.
"should you train before or after your games":
I dont remember who i heard it from (it might have been Viscose lol) but its been working pretty well for me. Before i hop on a game, i warm up for 30 minutes-ish with a routine i made for the game (its apex for me, so its a mix of dynamic clicking and reactive/smooth tracking), and after im done with the game I *SPECIFICALLY TRAIN STUFF I NOTICED I WAS STRUGGLING ON*. I can't hit my wingman shots? Okay i'll do some dynamic clicking today. Did i have problems with too much tension while tracking targets? I'll do some reactive tracking etc. etc.
@@Phos7x abt to go to sleep so ill read the rest in the morning, but yes u did hear that last bit from me :P thanks for writing this up!
@@Phos7x thanks for sharing this with me, very insightful and validated me that i'm on the right track to improve. my main game is valo and i'm following woohoojin's aim routine (30mins before bed) everyday but since it's summer i have a bit more time on my hands and i'm motivated to improve
viscose upload the day couldn't get better
Okay but is it grippy?
wouldnt u like to know :P
Bro 💀
pin this
alright budster
😭😭😭
I agree with this assessment for beginner advice, but not so much for a really advanced aimer. I think even a slight grip change can dictate how much fingertip adjustment potential or wrist mobility you have.
I certainly dont believe its intuitive for everyone to subconciously switch to the most beneficial grip to use for the given situation. Maybe most comfortable is somewhat true, but these arent the same.
Watching the whole video, I think we at least somewhat agree but you lead with "it doesnt matter". My opinion is it really doesnt matter until youre trying to fine tune, then to that person I would say "experiment and think about how that changes the mechanics of how you can utilize the mouse". Get a good understanding of the tradeoffs and use cases. Then from there pick the one that suits what you need/most consistent.
nice to see you press the upload button. big brain ideas presented here as always
Really well made viscose. Keep it up!
I am an Overwatch 2 Player and I have definitely had the most success with fingertip grip just because how much movement you have to make compared to other games.
I've been going through the same journey and for the longest time was using some weird pincer claw grip. Target acquisition was very good, but tracking stability was dog. I now settled for claw grip too after many hours of practising and going through many mice. I now settled for both a Viper v3 Pro and an OP1 8K which is also in the video I believe.
Great vid Vis, looking forward to another stream
I had sort of the same process, except I never palmed (my hands are too big to palm any mouse), but I went from Clawing a deathadder, to Clawing a Sensei 310, to fingertipping a GPW, to finally Hybrid claw-fingertipping a GPX, and here I am today.
Ok maybe I simplified it a bit, since I've owned more mice, but that's the process in a nutshell.
LETS GOOOO SHE FOUND THE UPLOAD BUTTON!!!!!
I play FPS games and near-constantly switch to gripping with fingertips, or pinching the sides, but the standard is resting my palm on the mouse. I regularly played a sniper in RTCW:ET, which requires incredibly fast vertical movement (2-3 shots per second, fighting a _very_ high recoil) and fine movement in basically the same motion..
The reasons for switching to fingertip grip make me think of using mouse acceleration (not the windows enhanced pointer precision but one that sets the acceleration curve to something predictable)
What I always felt is the way you aim makes a way bigger differences.
I'm used to playing CS playing with a fingertip grip and just moving my wrist, but everytime I come back to Apex I have to train myself on moving my whole arm again, because you just can't track that well with just wrist movement.
hello!!! I am a new subscriber and the way you aim in any game is incredible. It is surprising. The dedication I give to games personally is high, not as high as you, but I definitely do it. Now I have a very significant problem and I think I am not the only one who has this problem. How do I do if I'm very good at Counter Strike and in Valorant I don't feel the same sensitivity. The change in sensitivities in different games is super strange and it's not exactly known if it's because of the cm length or just the sensation of microcorrections or long flicks.
Fingertip like you said sounds the best in theory. But long term it feels awful for me. No stability, fingers get tired, and the improved control is overrated. If you do claw palm combined you can still use your arm for 95% of the time and still have enough movement in your fingers to make micro adjustments.
Basically, look up the "there's no free lunch" theorem.
0:45 That skin combo is nuts. That is what i wanted to play with but couldnt afford unfortunately.
oh dw i couldnt afford it either LOL, that was on a community server
one of my favs too though, the all yellow loadouts look so clean
@@ViscoseOCE XDDD Yeah i did the same. I actually had a WW fuel injector with 4 holo Incineration stickers for a good price on CSmoney sale but i missed all other things. I was doing the same on servers. Usually it was m9 lore mith those wraps. Cs has so many beautiful yellow skins to make a solid set. Missing deagle btw :)
saving this for when i have an off day and want to change my mouse grip and swap to different mice 999999 times
Viscose
Your channel is very good, don't stay without posting for a long time pls 😆
ill try my best! cant promise anything though, this last absence was bc i got sick 3 times LOL
I play palm and personally I think the best light mouse you can buy for palm grip, which also has great software and no issues out of the box, is lamzu thorn 4k.
Using a brick like G502 is crazy
*VIDEO IDEA*
Can you pls make a video talking about the benefits of claw grip and why you should switch to claw grip and how to actually grip your mouse for it to be considerd a claw grip bc im debating whether i should switch from fingertip grip to claw grip bc of the downsides of fingertip grip like you mentioned
sounds like an idea for your exact needs
I've always used fingertip grip. It came natural to me. And was areally nice for me when i played CS:GO since i was awper and had to do big flicks fast. But i was struggling as a rifler due to MA. Switched to hard pad and micro adjustments was no issue anymore. Highly recommend for anyone using fingertip to get a hard pad.
5:28 the best grip
WOOOOH YOU UPLOADED AGAIN !!
yet another based and aware video from Viscose. Very informative video 👍
My mouse grip and mouse type was easy for me., plastics make my hand sweat so nothing in my palm was a comfort must.. thus I am a pincer claw/fingertip mouse enjoyer
My only question is.. ZA13c wireless when ?
we can only dream :(
I use a similar grip, I relaxed fingertip as a baseline and whenever I do faster motions I usually have palm contact. The area where my palm contacts even changes depending on the position of the mouse relative to my hand. Many years ago I used palm grip when I was playing on a very slow mousepad and a mouse with a thick, heavy wire and I automatically transitioned to that new grip over time when I replaced the wire with a paracord and got a faster mousepad. Around that time I wanted to get a new mouse so I was trying to figure out what grip I was using and I was super confused because my new grip was changing between fingertip and claw but I still sometimes palmed the mouse back then so I basically used all 3 grip styles. And I'm still not sure if my current grip is more of a fingertip or a claw grip. I guess it's both.
As a freak of nature who uses 1-3-1 this is relatable
1-3-1 enjoyers assemble
1-3-1 here also. you play apex?
Hey do you stare at the target for all scenarios or just tracking scenarios? Idk if I'm overthinking it but target conformation feels better in static scenarios and games ilke Valorant when focusing on the crosshair rather than the target. Part of me wants to focus on the target instead though because ever since I started focusing on the target in tracklng heavy scenarios/games, my aims improved drastically. I'm confused on whether you should always focus on the target, which would benefit you in the long run, or just do what's best per scenario.
very nice topic and video ! well done !!
The more you look into stuff like this the more you realize it literally doesn’t matter and the best. Grip or whatever is what works for you.
Should the wrist touch the table when we using fingertip ?
mine does personally, im sure having it hovering slightly could work though
You can tell she was embarrased to say she was using the g502 because you can hear her giggle when saying was
Forget Aiming. This Editing is smooth 👀
Thank you for the vid, very insightful. Just to clarify, you do microadjust vertically with fingers on a regular basis, right? Even though mainly you microadjust with the wrist since you're using claw grip
i do yea! fairly often, esp when i play faster sensitivities
@@ViscoseOCE thank you for your answer, last question i promise! so when you do these vertical adjustments, doesn’t this shortly transition you into a fingertip grip? because for you to be able to move vertically, you should break the contact with the inside of your palm, am i right? and after the vertical movement you go back into the neutral claw grip with solid palm contact?
it doesnt entirely lose contact, its just moving slightly while maintaining contact with my upper palm (i think)
when i game, like dependable on what genra of games, i change my grip on mouse, and sometimes while in a match i change grib style, like if my hand feel uncortable in that position for to loong, than i change it abit to like have a more comfortable grib while also aim decently (with my newbie aim) but in a generally sens, working on adaptabillity, is a good way to get a better understanding of ur mouse, and how u wanna aim in a game, like what sens and dpi feels right, i tend to play games over meny different genra, so i rather work on learning to fast adapt to things than going for like the constant same sens and dpi, i adapt to how fast im aiming and games while also feeling how much i wanna move my mouse from side to side
Can i ask you does your ads sens in apex is the same in mw3 and what it is is it realtive or lagacy and what number?
amazing video!! if you could recommend. what would you say is the most optimal grip for low sens of 80-105cm in your opinion? thank you
I've always used fingertips. I think it's just how it is right from the start and my first ever serious mouse was also the g502 and even then I also used fingertips. I think it's because when I was a child there's never much mouse space in my mousepad. It was always one of those cheap office mousepad so I ended up picking up fingertips grip because of the need for high dpi to compensate the lack of space
my aim got better when I gave up and just held my mouse whatever I felt like on that day
about the downside you named on fingertip, that is due to the shape on the mouse mostly, I am a aim purist so i use one of those fingertip small mice, and since i switched to them they have been very good at making my aim insanely consistent with flicks especially and micro adjustments
ive tried those as well but havent had the same experience :/ still had to overtense for flicks. glad they worked for u tho!
@@ViscoseOCE you have tried the Gwolves HSK pro?
yep and the m2k
So funny how many of us smaller handed gamer gremlins started with the the g502. I'll never forget grabbing the mm710 for the first time. #brickrecovery
This woman can't miss
A new mouse grip video? Time to be uncomfortable for 2 weeks.
As a VT plat I also noticed I was doing this and was wondering if it was ok or a technique I needed to fix. Thanks for the answer.
I have another question, on precise tracking I notice I get better scores when locking my wrist and using mostly arm aiming. Is this correct technique or should I improve my wrist smoothness so I can also use it?
I've been playing Apex and I've always been concerned about my aim. It wasn't until almost two years later that I realized my mouse was too big for my hand (Razer Deathadder). I decided to switch to the Viper Mini, and after playing a few games, I noticed how much easier and more comfortable it was.
However, I am still trying to determine the best sensitivity for my mouse. Recently, I discovered that my mouse has a high LOD, which is not what I'm looking for. What other mice might be a better alternative to the Viper Mini?
Awesome video btw.
vancer recently released a new mouse called the vancer thrash and its very close to the viper mini in terms of shape if u like that shape, the op1 is my go to recommendation otherwise bc its just so comfortable for smaller hands and great value for money
got a question regarding grip: should your pinky finger be involved "good" into controlling the mouse? I often feel that I rely more on the ring finger and pinky is there just relaxed, but I saw that a lot of people actually rely on thumb and pinky. what do you think?
I found this video very helpful I have had so many mouse grip problems for 2 years, I have tried so many different things. My natural mouse grip hurts the right side of my hand and can hurt near my shoulder blade this could be because I don’t use my fingers when aiming and I don’t know how to fix that. But with my natural mouse grip I can aim the best so switching never really felt right and my aim was always terrible. It could be time for a new mouse but I could just be holding the mouse wrong entirely. Also I use a kinda relaxed claw grip where my hand is holding more of the right side of my mouse, I’m using the glorious model o wireless.
my natural mouse grip is a palm grip but for some reason I hold it with my hand more to the left which makes me hold my mouse a little inclined to the left. I'm entirely used to it though and it works great for me, though I have considered making adjustments in the past