A picture is worth 1,000 words. You showed us everything except the cause of the problem. When it came time for that, all we got was a verbal explanation. Clear as mud.
Thanks for the comment, constructive criticism is welcomed here. This is a link to my website that helps with the explanation. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
Two comments that might help people: First, the key idea is voltage drop. Imagine a simple circuit that doesn't even have a switch. You attach hot and neutral to a simple lamp base with a bulb in it. This isn't realistic, but it helps get the idea across. The voltage on the hot terminal will be 120V. Current flows through the resistance provided by the bulb and this resistance causes the voltage to drop across the bulb. In fact, it drops 120V and the voltage on the neutral terminal will be zero. A voltage drop occurs ONLY when current flows. If you disconnect the neutral from the lamp base, current stops flowing. Therefore, the voltage drop across the bulb becomes zero. The terminal from which you disconnected the neutral is now up at 120V. No current is flowing, but the terminal is at 120V, ready to bite you. This is what happened in the circuit in the video. If you open a neutral in a circuit with current, you stop the current. All the voltage drops upstream of where you opened the neutral become zero and the voltage of the neutral on the conductor coming from upstream will go to 120/240 and the other neutral (heading back to the box) will be at zero. Here's the second comment: Never trust a neutral. Here's what I mean. I had to replace a pigtail in a lighting outlet. Before making changes, I checked for voltage, hot and neutral, found voltage, and then opened breaker. I saw the voltage go away, so I knew that I had the right breaker (since I saw things turn off). "Never trust a neutral," means that, even though I had taken all due care in identifying the proper breaker, when I untwisted the neutral splice to do my work, I did not assume I was safe. Good thing, because, as the neutral splice opened, it arced. How was this possible, since power was off, as proven by probing for voltage and killing the circuit? Simple. Someone screwed up. Somehow, they managed to tie the neutrals of two circuits together somewhere. So, voltage went off on the hot in the outlet when I opened the breaker, and there was no voltage on the neutral, but there *was* current in the neutral from some other circuit (who knows where) and, when I opened that splice, I interrupted that other circuit, the voltage drops went away, and the neutral in the splice came up to 120V. Never trust a neutral. Hope this helped.
shared neutral ... Some person got lazy and could not find the open N so they found another working circuit nearby from another breaker but with a working N and they tied into it ...
I understood what he said because I already saw a video where somebody actually explained it in an easy to understand manner. Terry gets a C- for his teaching skills on this one.
Terry uses the phrase "Further up in the circuit" which had me totally confused, as he just showed us that up the wall was located just a lamp socket. I believe Terry's perspective must be that "up the circuit" refers to wires closer to the pole outside, you know, the one that is "up in the sky." Agreed, his video is near useless. Would be better if he knew how to show a schematic and simulate a break in a wire.
@SEYMOUR SCAGNETTI he took the splice apart further up the stream. Since the light was switched on his body wanted to complete the circuit. Its pretty simple. Terry said all that
I'm not a certified electrician, but have been keeping myself educated. I first started when I was ten years old in 1964 by reading books at the library. I started fixing table lamps and other electrical things for neighbors and friends. I later got into electronics and started fixing home record players, audio amplifiers, and other things as well. This did work well for me overall as in 2006, I got a job at a company that built power control equipment for subways and light/heavy commuter and other electric powered trains. I was also able to point out design faults in the equipment we built, mostly when wires were too close to what are called load measuring resistor packs that would get very hot. They were wired in parallel to track circuit breakers and were activated in short bursts when a circuit breaker tripped to measure current flow to determine if the short still existed. Sometimes my advice wasn't taken and equipment would fail when put into operation. I also studied building codes before I rewired the bathroom and kitchen in my house built in 1913. There's still some antique light switches and old wiring using single wires and ceramic knob tubes in the house, but there's no heavy loads on those circuits. I've subscribed to your channel and hit the bell. There's always something I can learn from videos like these. Thank you.
Very much appreciated. The average DIY'er often has very important things to understand about electricity, and certainly needs to take every precaution. Mistakes are often things that were never even thought of as possible, or careless oversights and assumptions.
While working for a heating company years ago I got a late night call for no heat. I get there to see a fairly new warm air furnace and instinctively I reach for the power switch mounted on the side to see if it's on and to see if may have been installed up side down. (on being in the down position) On touching the switch box I was lit up like a Xmas tree because the whole cabinet was hot! Turn off the breaker and open the box to see lots of wires under one wire nut.... and the connection was burnt to a crisp. There was NO neutral and nobody had bothered to tie the ground to the box or cabinet. 15 minutes later I had trimmed back to good wire, added a second wire nut, and grouped the neutrals into bunches of 3 with a jumper, plus tied the ground to the box. Back in business. In hind sight, had they run conduit to the switch box there probably would have been a secondary neutral path via ground, but this was a Romex run from the ceiling to the unit WITHOUT a hard ground connection. In that case it may not have provided heat but I wouldn't have been blown to the floor with a hot cabinet. Did I mention this house had a dirt floor? All the better reason to have a good neutral and ground. I never did find out who wired this thing but now I always check with my inductive tester first.
I was having trouble with a TP Link smart dimmer switch. A Google search led me to this video, which was extremely helpful. It was great to see how to test the switch and eliminate problems. It turned out that I had the line and load wires reversed, hey both were black. Thanks for helping me out in a jam!
I’ve run into this quite often in my house that was built in 1930 with cloth wrapped wires and porcelain insulators.. started replacing wires and outlets and figured out it was easier just to cut out all the old and start at the breaker box instead of routing them back the same way originally done and avoided a lot of unnecessary splicing.
Thank you Terry for adding to my knowledge, I'm trying to install and automatic electrical switch for a backup generator. I'm not and electrician but I am an engineer and know just about enough to get myself killed. lol I'm trying to learn enough to survive this project. Thanks again. and just incase someone is wondering, the answer is NO I will not be doing a video explaining how to do this once I figure it out. It's too dangerous to share with the general public and as an engineer it would be irresponsible of me to share this information with unqualified persons. I am actually unqualified myself so I definitely will not be sharing it with anyone else, Sorry.
Correct me if I am wrong... the neutral being hot is a result of backfeed from a common load passing back to an unbonded open circuit in the neutral... it’s also possible to blow up electronic appliances from a phase because of a non bonded neutral causing a 240v feed between loads. I learned on outdoor 120v branch circuits to use a double pole safety cut out switch disconnecting both hot and neutral as the neutral can have a different potential to grounds in the field which is a safety hazard even on circuits where the hot is switched off at the breaker. This is especially important when the circuit is brought to a location like a light pole or older commercial settings where ground potentials can vary widely.
An open neutral on your service conductors, or at the main panel can cause all sorts of issues, with 120V appliances and equipment subject to anywhere from 0 to 240V, depending on what else is turned on and off.
I hope you are able to help. I have two light fixtures in my garage. I want to add two more light fixture to have a light more light. I bought 14/2 50 ft wire from the light fixture number I tapped into to it. I did white with white and black with black. The same light fixture has about 4 white wires and three black wires. With the new wire I did black to black and white to white and ground. I ran the wire about 12ft to the new desired place to shine more light. I bought i new fixture the has four screws two silver and two brass no ground screw. I connect the white cable to the silver screw as indicated and black to the brass screw. When I put everything back and turn the breakers back on the two light fixture turns on and the third which is the new one stays on and will not turn off. Please help
I think that you have a "switch leg drop" happening here. You tied in to the power supply hot wires, and the neutral. You need to connect to the white wires, and the hot wire that is connected to the first fixture instead of to the splice that has the 3 black wires. Watch this video and I think it will all make sense to you. From what you have described though, I'm thinking that they didn't quite wire the switch drop as they should have and I suspect you have a white wire that is connected to the hot for the first fixture? Check out the video and let me know if this makes sense now. th-cam.com/video/pnlHCiRN_RU/w-d-xo.html
Between me watching another electrical video before yours, then specifically looking for one about open neutrals (finding yours), I finally understand what's happening. I believe I've seen that open neutral light, on a simple 3-prong plug tester, at my parents' house on certain outlets as well as at switches. Not being an electrician, obviously, I'm sure it'll be fun trying to trace the direction the current flows from each plug/switch to the next. 😕 I do appreciate your video though and you making it easy to understand. Idk why but I'm very mechanically inclined but have always avoided electricity issues beyond installing lights, switches, and outlets. I created a mental block for myself. LOL Thanks again!
So I have a bit of a different situation everything in my house is wired properly and was checked multiple times and has worked well over two years perfectly fine well this morning I wake up to only half of the house working and I draw the problem back to an outlet in the kitchen where everything kind of branches off of and it's acting like the neutral is not connected in the breaker box and I trace the line from point A to point B and there's no brakes no cuts no tears and it goes straight to the box but I cannot for the life of me get that neutral line to work if I jump the white line from a working receptacle over to the white line that is not working everything comes on so if you could maybe help me out with that it would be awesome
That is a weird one, but when you say that only half the house was not working, I would suspect a connection on one of the hot wires, either at the utility transformer, the meter base, or a half-tripped main breaker of a faulty main breaker or connections at the main breaker. The rest of your explanation is a bit puzzling. This needs some in person trouble-shooting. I'd call in an electrician that is good at problem solving.
@@theinternetelectrician I found the problem finally. My kitchen range was wired into the same receptacle as the lights on that half and had melted the wires together inside of it.
@@AndytheMachine OK, that's good that the issue was discovered. This needs to be properly rectified (obviously) and this unusual situation made safe and compliant again. It's an interesting case study and if you want to elaborate further with photos and more detail, send me an email to internetelectrician@gmail.com. It might make good subject matter for a future video.
Perfect explanation. Just went through this exact same thing. Followed my neutral wires and found where somebody had spliced them and they had come apart. Thank you.
Watching the video second time and now I understand 120v not coming the light on, I had that situation where a guy kept saying it’s the light fixture itself or I was not using right the wire nuts a hard head person but this video gave me a good understanding to keep moving and don’t stay to long dealing with the light fixture that is not coming on even if you have 120v
“So the answer is you have spliced up stream” What the hell does that mean? You explained everything well except the answer to our problem. I don’t remember splicing anything.
What this means is the white wire (neutral) was connected from an outlet before it. Spliced wires simply mean connecting them, typically by twisting exposed tips then put in a wire nut to secure the connection. To understand the word "upstream", consider this: electricity goes to the circuit breaker, then goes in the the house, going thru outlet #1, then outlet#2, etc... till the last outlet. If you are working on the troublesome outlet#5, upstream includes outlets#1 thru #4. This video says "you have spliced up stream", meaning the connection was done in an outlet before the one in work, and the connection could be broken at any of these. If outlet#5 is in trouble, go back the stream to test other outlets. Once you find a working one, the bad connection could be here or on the next one downstream. For example, you test #4 (found bad), #3 (found bad), #2 good. The bad connection could be at #2 or #3. The pro electricians talk in their own language assuming that we are pro like them !!! It's very hard for us to understand. That is why I do not hire pro !!!
I have a post on my website about this that has line diagrams that might help you understand what goes on here. electrical-online.com. Search on open nuetral.
@@aarondavis176 he spoke in electrician terms so maybe a little confusing, but knowing electrical terminology everything he said came across loud and clear.
Thanks for the comment! Don't rule out any stupid jokes or useless back stories however, I've been know to do that once in a while! Thanks for watching, and I hope that you have subscribed to my channel, and gave the video a 'like'?
If the nutural wire is purposly cut and not connected to any fixture, and just hanging off the wall, can it be stuffed back into the wall where it originated? If I turn on the electricity will this cause a fire in the wall?
That should not happen unless there is a connection to the system between the meter and the main breaker somehow? Happens with homes that were 'grow ops' at one time or another?
@@theinternetelectrician Thank you. I don't think this is issue. Maine CMP is charging for all sorts of stuff not actually used. PUC investigating. I have not used any - living fine off Solar panel and Jackery and propane heat. but they are still charging after disconnect notice 2 years ago.... I had only been paying $25-55 for approx 15 years. Also up to date on bills. Then got bill for over $600!!! I was driving tractor trailer over the road so not even home! I was just curious how something like this happens. Frustrating. TY for responding. Be Safe.
@@leemartin9156 Yeah, somethings not right! I can see a flat fee being charged if the service is still in place and useable if needed, but to jump like that, must be a mistake of some kind. Make them come out and point out what might possibly be using power when you're not! Got any neighbors that throw a cord over your fence and use your power while you're away? :-)
@@theinternetelectrician I had tried a couple years ago and they refused to send someone. I don't know if neighbors were hijacking, but they had to break in to use stuff. I know they have done that in the past and they steal anything not locked down....
Love my house but hate the slimeball neighbors.I had a brand new outside line, box, 200A panel etc installedprobably 15 years ago- before any of this came up. Could a master electrician tell me what is being used?
Well it was good verbal explanation but not good visual in a circuit diagram. Schematic in electricity is were the rubber meets the road... This video needs more work with a point A to point B fault and remedy. Missing is what is upstream causing the fault. WIKI would say this article needs to be more comprehensive.
I had this happen during a bathroom remodel in my home. Whole circuit was wire 100% with a loaded neutral. Found that at the source of power junction box the neutral going back into the original source had a poor connection. Rescrewed the wire nut on with 3 neutrals and bingo. Everything on circuit working.
Woody Woodlstein Yea same here. I have this same issue but I don’t know where the neutral is open, I’d like to figure out the best way of testing it to determine where the fault could be.
Thank you. I have outside lights on a store that show a hot line wire but no current when timer is switched on for the neutral. I’ll have to follow the circuit up stream and see if a splice has been disconnected. Definitely 👍🏻 and a sub.
For the confused....checkout the diagram on his website. He explained it perfectly in the video but the diagram allows you to trace the path and makes it easier to envision. You can see where the path is broken so current doesn’t flow, but voltage still gets to the neutral. Touch the neutral and you complete the circuit.
If it helps to explain, that exposed splice on the white (neutral) he was showing in the switch box would have been open (un-done). So he wouldn't be testing a "neutral" any longer. Only a section of white wire between the light and the switch. Unscrew the light bulb and you wouldn't get ANY reading between the switch and the end of the white wire since the light bulb filament is acting like a "coupling" (connecting the black to the white at the lamp) and extending the black wire that brings power to the lamp. Yes, a diagram or more physical demo would help.
@@1ftintheflames The problem is that between the switch box and the panel, the neutral is disconnected. So the potential voltage has gone out on the hot, through the bulb and back down the neutral ...to where the break in the neutral is. Once he connects the 2 disconnected neutral wires (the "hot" neutral coming from the light and the switch box and the neutral wire that normally continues to the panel), everything will be OK. In this example, his friend had taken apart a junction box ...what the video didn't explain is that the junction box is located between the switch and the panel.
I have a open a reversed neutral in the kitchen. I change all the outlets, even change a light switch. I even changed my circuit breakers. I even checked the junction box that joins in the kitchen. And I still couldn't find the open neutral in the kitchen. Could it be behind a wall? Could it be that it's touching the 🔥 hot somewhere? Can it be a nail hitting it? What could it be? What can cause this?
Can I tell you thanks for the tips. I hate house wiring !!! I spent 2 days chasing wires on plugs and thankfully I found loose wires and or bad plugs which I replaced. What I didn’t expect was a ground that just fell off the post on a switch that had at least in my mind, nothing to do with the plugs that lost power !!! Blows my mind.
It will only show there is a open neutral on that circuit, not where it is. You could have half a dozen receptacles and a couple lights on a circuit, meaning you would have to hunt for it and knowing what to look for. Of course with cutting the breaker, exposing as he did, then carefully check. If that one is ok, go to the next. In this case, look for a disconnected white wire in a junction box. That is the usual culprit. Or in the case of someone twisting it too tight, it was broken and messing with it broke it off, not knowing, or simply didnt get it in the wire nut, if wires were not twisted. But again, make sure the breaker is off by using the plug in tester.
Because it was simple. The neutral was not grounded at the panel. It was just floating. As it can be anywhere between the switch\outlet to the panel. And that can be anywhere. Including several other switches\outlets and boxes....
Great video. Based on what you explained and some of the public comments, folks, if you are not an electrician, don't play with electricity. Mistakes will ruin your day... At best... I'm 11kV qualified so I do have clue...
Have to agree. I had hot neutral and this video has left me even more confused as to why. Need to explain exactly what you mean by open neutral. Is it open that the panel or 'upstream'?
You get this situation when the neutral path is not complete. It could be anywhere in the circuit between where it is discovered and the panel. A splice in a junction box, or a broken or loose connection right at the neutral bar in the panel itself.
Good video. I always questioned why the industry calls the neutral a neutral. It’s a circuit return path. Think about it. There is no load below the bulb. And what does ohms law tell you? It relates voltage and current to load resistance. So with no current flowing back to the neutral bar, there is no voltage drop across your load. At least until you touch it in which case you become the return path! Watch those neutrals!!! Esp. On older service work. Often you find shared neutrals. Two breakers or circuits sharing a common neutral. Here you can back feed power into the dead circuit. As the dead breaker has no current path, it’s a recipe for getting a new hair do!!! Several times I have found several neutrals tied together with a massive solder joint and tape. Sometimes it’s OK, other times you may have a loaded neural when working on this. So always check that neutral! It will tell you instantly if you have a loaded neutral.
I got a shock from a white neutral last week replacing a pool pump. Assuming the white wire coming out of the small box on the side of the house near the pumps was neutral. Assuming the pumps were set up for 115. Nope. Somebody made 220 with three wires using the unshielded ground wire for the neutral. They started at the main box from a double breaker with red and black. Now how can I tell if the middle bare wire go's back to a common or a ground?
This is actually quite common, and is OK to do, IF, you identify that white wire as a hot wire wherever it is accessible, like in any junction box, or at the pump. Identify it by using black, red, (or even blue) electrical tape. The bare ground wire in this case is not a neutral. It is just an equipment ground wire. The difference being it does not carry current (intentionally that is, only in a fault condition) 240V loads don't need a neutral, the current is all on the 2 hot wires.
Hi and thank you for the information ! In our country - Bulgaria. The really old houses wirings, probably in the oldest lefted on villages houses has only two fuses for breaker for the whole house from the transformer to the everything around the house - one for the live wire and another one for the neutral, because couple of time ago in our country, the law requires only dual house wirings /with only live and neutral in the house, without ground/ and also - contacts with no grounding /the appliances manufactured then in our country was at law - double insulated/. So, one time i started diagnosing him, telling father to stop the fuse, and he misappealy take off the neutral one. So I wondered for a little why it has live on the both conducters even in the destributions on the wall /in the housing them in our area, it has destribution boxes in the walls before to go to every Individual outlet or socket. And there, the wires for the sockets and lamps are tied up together. I am figured it out suddenly, so that my dad has taked off only the one fuse - neutral one from my grandpa's house. Haha But here how it can happen dangerous faults !!!
"He found that he had open splices further up the circuit". Well... that's fine & dandy. But... That really doesn't give you the actual reason why he had 120 on his neutral. People are gonna ask about those open splices further up the circuit, where the cause of the problem is. So what actually was the cause? For example, the same neutral, at the opposite end of the circuit might probably be connected to a hot leg. If that were the case, then you've given a reason why your neutral is loaded. If someone's sewer is blocked & wants to know why... the EASY answer is: there's a problem somewhere down the line. Well, no shit. The answer is with the actual problem, which everyone wants to know. Unless... I've missed something? Sorry. Don't mean to jump on your back. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten the uninitiated.
The cause was that he had taken apart a splice while he was doing his renovations and had forgot that the splice was still open. Once re-connected as it should have been, all was well. This was just to explain how and why you can have a reading of 120V on a neutral, that should be at earth or ground potential.
I apologize if I sounded rude. I appreciate the fact that you made the effort to shed some light on the subject. I was in a pissy mood to begin with, and vented on ya. My bad. Thanks for the quick reply. Best of luck to you.
Hello. I have a unused 220 line coming to an outlet for a range. Can the outlet plug be remove and splice in another line same gauge and extend this line to another area to hook up baseboard heat? In so in essence using the existing box as a junction box?
Yes, you can do this. You could even use appropriately sized cable for the baseboard heater requirements as long as you drop the breaker size to match the wire size. For example, if you need a 20A, 2-pole breaker for you baseboard heater, you could splice in #12/2 at the range junction box. Just make sure the breaker you use is sized to the smallest conductor used in the circuit.
I started taking a few courses hoping that I will know everything. The more I learned, the less I know. I went up to Master Degree and still learning every day!
Grounded or floating neutral. Ha a journeyman electrician (supposedly) almost got me killed by floating a neutral feed into an outer building from the main MCC. Good explanation.
Neutral wire is WHITE, open means it is not connected to anything. Let say a light bulb has black and white wires connected to it. When turn ON, the black wire will carry electricity (from another black wire thru the switch), the electricity goes thru the light filament and goes to the white wire which is OPEN (not connected). So this white wire (open neutral) now measures 120 Volts, meaning it is LOADED. I am an engineer not a professional electrician who like to explain things using their own language which confuses us. I learned to explain the popular way so popular people can understand. How to fix this issue ? Tough job as this neutral wire is part of a circuit for many outlets and the white wire could be opened (broken connection or not connected) at any of these. I know how to track this down but cannot explain it in details here.
The order in which things happen determines which terminology is relevant. The neutral only becomes loaded IF it is open (disconnected from the breaker box) AND the circuit is energized WITH something (the light bulb) that is capable of sending current to its neutral side connection. The hot side “wants” to reverse (alternate) current flow but never can until it’s brought down by ground (in a proper AC circuit) or by you (if you are unfortunately the ground). Now go back and read my second sentence because of course neutral is STILL loaded in a correctly wired circuit, too. Disconnect neutral and the circuit stops. So, “artificially loaded” might be a better way of characterizing the faulty condition. And there ain’t none of that nuance in this video unfortunately, which is why it’s not as clear as it could be.
Ok I have an issue with a closet light that suddenly stopped working. House was built in 2003. I have done no electrical work previously. Checked bulb first no issue there. Got my voltage tester out and no power on the hot to the switch. But then I checked the 2 neutrals that were tied together in the box and there is power on the neutrals. I checked the other switches and outlets on the circuit for a loose wire and nothing. Breaker has never popped. I’m stumped on this one.
That is a puzzler with what you are describing. Something like this takes an experienced troubleshooter electrician. Sometimes things don't make any logical sense until you find where the problem is and then it can all be rationalized, but this needs some hands on checking. If you were within a 30 minute drive from me I'd be right over!
Yap when Mr Terry connected last one nutro to gound his power was on at swich so circuit was complited for hot & nutro and on top of that he complited another circuit with multimeter nutro to gound ofcorce nutro it hot swich was on from hot to nutro by multimeter he complited Nutro to ground so its hot again. It should be hot swich was off and nutro it self carring current right sir? But swich was on and connecting nutro to ground curring current ofcorce sir. If I'm saying wrong please correct me sir thanks.
I have a different question, I replaced fabric cable with romex, TWO unrelated branches (both previously upgraded) are reading continuity across the hot and neutral. I found out the hard way. 2 cables going to different rooms. I'm really confused
So just to be clear, you read continuity from hot to neutral? This would be normal and expected unless there was nothing plugged into any receptacle and no light switches are on, etc.
all current ultimately goes back to neutral and or ground rod through ground water back to power generation location. At substations there is a huge array of copper rods into ground to actual generator and or transformers. We installer alot of sub stations. Many do not realize all current has to go in circle back to lowest potential. Shalom
I have a subpanel out in the garage, where the ground and neutral busbars are tied together. Then a black wire with a yellow stripe goes back to the house. I haven't looked in the house yet to see if I can figure out what is really happening, but I assume the striped wire is a neutral. Is the subpanel in this configuration wired correctly? If so, do I even need grounds for hookups off the subpanel box, because they're just tied to neutral (until they get back to the main panel) anyway?
Check with you local code, but where I was trained in the trade, if you ran a sub-feed to an outbuilding like this, if you ran 4 conductors (2 hot, nuetral and ground), then you did not bond the neutral to the ground at the sub-panel. But if you only run 3 conductors, then you must establish another suitable ground (earthing) point at the panel location and then bond the neutral as it appears is the case with yours. Then all the circuits fed from that panel must still have a ground wire in all the cables to keep earth and neutral separate from the panel onward. If that ground wire goes back to the main panel grounding system, then that isn't correct and you are vulnerable to floating ground current on that conductor.
Terry, Thanks for your videos. But,...As a retired industrial/residential electrician, "I" understand the situation. But people who really have no business messing with electrical wiring have no idea what you are talking about without you showing by example what caused it, rather than to just mention it. Without being rude, without that, the video is rather useless for the unknowing novice. Sorry, just constructive criticism. BTW, the worst messes I have ever had to correct is when people of such, mess around with 3 way, 4+ way switching. Totally screwed up. Novice people have no idea what NEC Code is either. These people also need to realize that they can screw themselves beyond belief from their insurance companies when regardless of being the home owner or not, as some jurisdictions still say that's ok. But MANY City charters say NO and have absolutely in no uncertain terms that it is not allowed. That you MUST use a certified electrician who will sign off and some as in the State of Tenn., requires a City Inspector to approve, before use. Some cities, such as Chattanooga, and others have city codes that are far more detailed and additions beyond the NEC. And of course you have to comply.
Tony. I appreciate your input, and of course I have dealt with people that share your viewpoint countless times. I try to only help the DIY'er with simple electrical repairs or projects, and always explain to them that they must see if they are allowed to do the work by way of a homeowner permit. Electrical replacements in kind (change a broken switch or a worn receptacle) do not require a permit in most cases. To deny that people do their own electrical work regardless of what you or I think is to deny the 2 - 4 isles dedicated to electrical and lighting in any home improvement store. I'm only trying to help what is already getting done, get it done correctly and safely. Keep looking on TH-cam here and you will find handymen from all walks of life teaching electrical as well. At least I have the training so it's not the blind leading the blind.
Constructive thought, yes did need to show where the open neutral was. If the neutral was open outside at the entry point, would we get a shock on the unbalanced portion of current, trying to get back to the transformer? thank you as always.
@flexmaster And you are free to do so, just understand that your homeowner's policy can put 2 and 2 together and find that a convenient excuse not to pay out your claim. Related... or not.
flexmaster I hear ya, people make mistakes though which is why it never usually hurts to have a review done of work. People that don’t understand what they are doing cause problems for the ones smart enough to research
I have run into this myself on a few occasions... SUPPRISE! While your explanation and demonstration was great, showing it schematically (as in a a diagram) would have been most helpful, as well as showing the opened up-stream neutral leg.
Hello, Terry. My class and I watched your video and we had a question about circuits. We are currently studying single circuits and parallel circuits and we would like to know if there is no load, will the current still flow through the connectors (wires)?
Heather Reilly no, if there is no load, no current will flow. Think of it like water in your homes pipes. If the valve is closed, (switch off) there is no water flowing (current flow). There is still pressure there (voltage or potential) but until you open the valve and make use of the water pressure, no water will flow.
EXACTLY; the question was answered, but given the "potential" for grave danger of electrical shock, i would have included your statement as a, "just be aware though", inclusion.
Ok... QUESTION: WHY I TURNED OFF THE SWITCH AND STILL MY TESTER BEEPS INDICATE IS A HOT POWER (BLACK WIRE) TURN OFF SWITCH AND TURN OFF THE LIGHTS... BUT STILL SHOW POWER. 😱.
Thanks, this explains the theory behind half of my problem. My current issue is: Mobile Home with panel wired like a subpanel (bonding at the pole) Panel has 50 amp main breaker with 4 conductor pigtail to 4 prong plug Plug to outlet on pole protected by another 50 amp breaker/shutoff. Direct to meter/ power co. Power off at pole for all work😀 turned on for test only After scratching my head for the longest time, I disconnected all circuits (8) Capped off all hot and neutral wires, left all grounds connected. Tested main lugs Test showed 120 between ground and neutral just like your example but...... I also see that if I connect a test load (60 watt bulb) to any breaker if I switch the Load on I get 0 volts on the red terminal and 240 on the black When the load is off it is 120/120 Took the cover off the supply on the pole the neutral was burnt and open Explaining the 120 on neutral to ground. What causes the 120/120 shift to 0/240...? Thanks for the help
i feel sorry for you Terry!... people it was an open Neutral!!.... he doesn't have to show you anything!! just imagine in your head the WHITE WIRES NOT CONNECTED!!.. that's all.. plain and simple.. if there not connected the circuit is open which means its not complete which means with AC you have to have a complete circuit or you will have no light! once he hooke the white wires back up the circuit was complete again.
@@zeus3358 Yes, sir. I also like to pre twist all connections before putting the wire nuts because they will never come apart unless you purposely untwist them.
EDIT: I changed my downvote to an upvote due to the OP reply. Terry: I would suggest you add a 30 second trailer to your video showing where the problem was in your example for all to see. A picture is worth a thousand words.
it does make sense, imagine your neutral disconnected at the panel. 120v rides up the black wire from your panel to the switch, then to your light when in the on position, power goes through the light then down through your neutral but has no where to go, no street neutral and no ground path. this is why ground rods at your meter are a great idea in case your aluminum neutral lets go or a tree takes down your overhead service. it can fry circuit boards and even cause fires in motors. tvs, refrigerators, dishwashers, dvd players, phone chargers, computers, monitors, etc. are all prone to failure in these situations. I've witnessed some pretty bad insurance claims
great job, it does make sense to me, someone who has been doing this for 15+ years, but to someone trying to learn, it may require a diagram or an in depth video on this.
Hello. i have a 100 amp subpanel i ran to my garage. when i bought the subpanel there was no ground bar so i bought this and installed it into the box and ran a ground into the ground outside, two 6 ft grounds 6ft apart. I have two hot wires and one neutral ran from the original box and get 121V to each hot wire when checking between each hot and nuetral. when i ran power to a switch and to outlets in the roof for lights, first problem was i was getting a reversed hot and neutral code on my tester. so i switched the hot and neutral and everything worked when i ran another leg to some outlets , when the breaker is off for the outlets but the other leg with lights is on i still have a hot neutral until i switch off the breaker for the lights.
Bill Handymanbill as I’ve said before here, I could have shown a picture of white wires not spliced together and that would have added to the detailed explanation?
I got 2 15amp receptacles on one circuit at my home. One has power from the breaker(4 wires, 2 white, 2 black and 2 grounds twisted together), it feeds other recep which has 2 wires and ground, 1 white, 1 black. The main recep works perfect, the fed recep only shows ground(119v). When I test the white and black, I got nothing, or really the multi meter shows like 1 or 2 or 0 or goes back and forth between those as I hold leads on white and black. When I hold leads on white and ground it shows 0. When I hold leads on black and ground it shows 119. The main recep from breaker shows 119-120 or so on both of the white/blacks. Ground on both black/ground. 0 on both white/ground tests. I;m able to do this testing on the bare wires as I took both the main recep and the fed recep off walls. It's now bare wires at both outlets, easy for me to test them. I can't figure out why the fed recep does not have anything when testing black/white. Black/ground has the right voltage, white/ground has 0. I put new recep at the main one that feeds the other recep. Didn't fix it. Same prob. At the breakerbox, this circuit's breaker is the only one that has the red test button on the breaker. Prob because these 2 are 15amps and both are on porches(covered porches don't get rained on, but outside nevertheless). The 2 outlets never had and still do not have gfci receps. They never had those type out there. Both of these outlets have always worked fine until about a year ago. This house was built in 1987 or so. It's in SC. I'm just Stumped here. The 2 outlets are on porch's in back and front of house. Porches are covered though. But still, they're outside technically. They both came with the house(not installed by any me or any previous homeowners). That's the trouble shooting and the work I did to try to fix the fed recep at back porch. The power lines don't go under house, in the walls and drop to receps. Man, not sure what to troubleshoot next or what to test, check, etc, at this point. Sucks too. I need that power at back porch's outlet. Could the actual breaker be bad? But then I think why would main recep work fine. Should the receptacles be gfci's? They never have been. They both used to be the older push in type and someone had changed that fed recep, at back porch, sometime before I bought this house about 10 yrs ago to a newer type, not gfci though, and it's worked fine for past 9 years. No mice here, rats, rodents, etc. It's crawlspace, brick, not mobile home, no issude with electrical since I've been here. Clean house. No rot, trash, yard growth, in other words it's just a regular decent house, not anything spectacular but not anything nasty or neglected. That front main recep was the old style still and I just put that newer type recep in it's place to try to back porch to work. In other words I took the one from back porch and replaced old push in style main one on the front, wired all 4 wires to it, left the 2 grounds twisted like they were, to get the old style out of the circuit- still same issue at fed back porch recep! This sucks. Can a whole entire white neutral wire just go bad, like from the main recep to the fed recep? Ughhh! I know I've done the trouble shooting correctly, I know no matter what the balck/white show nothing, the black/ground show 119 or 120 or so, the white/ground show 0.
You have done all you can for trouble-shooting and I don't think you've missed any of the easy fixes for this. you have a bad cable between the receptacles. This could be caused by a number of things. There might be a splice in a junction box somewhere between them? That would be nice because maybe a splice on the neutral is bad inside that junction box, and can be fixed up. The other culprit could be a cable staple or drywall nail or screw that pierced the cable and damaged the neutral conductor. This can happen over time if the conductor was compromised but not severed completely, and eventually it burns apart. Or it could have been something that happened recently? Did you pound any nails in to hang a picture? Any renovations lately that might have resulted in a damaged cable? Anyhow, your only solution if you don't find a junction box and bad splice is to replace that cable and abandon the one that is bad. Could be a challenge with finished walls, etc. Other option would be conduit on the outside from front to back, or a combination of cable fishing and conduit. This circuit is fed by a GFCI breaker, so having regular receptacles at those location is just fine as the protection is at the breaker for the circuit. If your breaker ever failed, a solution is to replace with a regular breaker and change the first receptacle to a GFCI and then feed the next one on the load side terminal of it.
@@theinternetelectrician, wow. You nailed Terry. Big help too. I really appreciate that you took the time it took to help me! Grateful. I now got it from here, will prob do the line in the conduit on outside in this house's situation. At least i can put new one exactly where i want it now. Man, we can't thank you enough.
Those open neutrals can be tricky...and deadly... I was called to a newly constructed home on a service call because the plumbers said they were getting shocked by their faucets... It took me a while but I finally tracked down and fixed the problem: The neutral on the load side in the meter base was never tightened at all...
Yup, that will do it! And the problem with those is that it's usually random, sometimes connected, then it opens up causing the issues to not be consistent.
Sorry Ed, this was only to explain how this situation can happen. The solution is to ensure you have a continuous path for current to flow back to the panel on the grounded conductors (neutrals).
I have some lamps where the neutral is not connected, but the ground is connected to the neutral wire. The neutrals also have power. I'm about to redo the whole apartment, breaker panel and every outlet. I think we should find the problems tracing everything back to the panel, or who knows? I'm also changing about 12 breakers as well because of the weirdness. I disconnected the neutral to the garage light and it works, so I have to start over.
Charles, as I've pointed out before, I could have showed 2 white wires not connected to each other. The problem is corrected by completing the neutral path as it should be. This is an explanation of how you can get a reading of 120 V on a white wire that should be a neutral, and how an open circuit on the neutral side can cause this.
Good morning How are you I have a question. I have two wires coming out of an electrical box. One of them brings power and the other goes to an outlet When I put my voltmeter test leads on the hot and neutral of the power wire it reads 119 as expected. When I put the test leads on the hot wire of the power wire and the box itself it reads 67 volts What’s could be the problem? Does it mean that my outlet box is not at 0? If it’s at 52 then the difference between the hot lead on the power wire and the box will be 67? How do I find out where the problem is? Thank you
That means that you have a poor (or non-existent) grounding system. Maybe the (grounding/ earthing) bare wire isn't connected to the outlet box grounding terminal, or is poorly connected, or maybe your cables are just 2-wire without a ground wire? (older home?). If you do have 2-wire cable + ground, do you have 119V from hot to it? If so, then just correct the problem of the outlet box not being connected properly and that should solve it. Feel free to provide some more detail and information here.
I had screw in drywall penetrating cable black with white wires. Lights still were working correctly. I found out this, once replacing switch. Took me whole day to solve the problem.
Great Job. Your knowledge was solidified in my book when you correctly called the neutral a grounded conductor. Not many electricians know the difference between a grounding conductor and a grounded conductor. So if the white wire is the grounded conductor and you break the conductor upstream the conductor cannot complete its purpose to take the voltage to ground in the electrical service through the grounding electrode conductor. It then becomes solely a current carrying conductor looking for a path to ground and preventing any current to pass through the load connected to it. So when the fellow touched the white wire he became the least resistance to ground.
I have 4 overhead lights and 6 plugs on same cercit... One day the lights stoped working and the plugs still worked... And the next day the lights came back on ... It's done it 3 times now... I've swaped out all plugs and checked all the lights can't find anything wrong ?
I have an old appliance i was working on. And noticed when i touch the woodstove and the appliance i got a little tingle of electricity. I connected a grnd to the appliance to the outside metal of the outlet and it turned on the appliance even though the switch was off. Furthermore i was unable to turn it off unless i disconnected the plug! What is going on. ?????
Okay so I set up a 3 way switch under my home at two entry points to light both sides without having to go to the other door. I think I see what I done. I got the power going to switch one on the black screw, and the two travelers going to to the other switch. I'm not sure if it matter if the travelers are hooked up on the same side, but that's how I hooked them up putting the reds on the side with the black screw, and the black on the other side. The neutrals are tied together, except for one spot where I had too many neutrals, so I think I should have put a jumper on the main neutrals. As it see it in my head now, I have the neutrals for this new circuit most likely not tied to the rest of the house. I was thinking it might be a bad receptical or switch, but I think I just need to get back down there and jumper the neutrals to the house circuit. Thanks! I'll let you know if that worked!
Yup, that was it. I had a cluster of 9 commons, and I didn't pay attention to if it was hooked up to the old circuit. So I added a jumper from the one that wasn't hot, to the ones that were hot, and now none are hot and the lights came instantly! Imagine that!
QUESTION, i put an electrical meter probe between the smaller 120v blade opening of an outlet and the ground probe to the sheet metal covering my pole building. should it read zero volts or 120 volts. mine says 120v. everything powers up but can i be electrocuted.
Sounds like everything is as it should be. Neutral (grounded conductor) and earthing or grounding system should be at the same potential. So with your meter you should get 120v reading from hot to neutral, and hot to ground. Thanks for watching!
We bought a old 50's home and I am changing all the plugs, switches and covers for looks and some plugs were worn out. I have a plug attached to a switch that was showing a reverse hot and neutral but the wires to screws are correct by color. just to see I reversed the first set of wires and it reads correct when on but the wires are now white to brass and black to silver. but in both positions they show hot neutral when the wires and screws are matched. I always check for power even after turning off the breaker. Is this ok to leave like this until I can hire a pro to follow and check all connection points since it reads correct with the wires reversed.
Have that checked out and if you can, leave the circuit off until you do. Could be any number of reasons but most likely just someone adding to a circuit and reversing the wire colors. Is there a ground wire in the cables, or just 2-wire cable?
I reinstalled a breaker after removing it for testing. Now I have two wires with 120 on them, when I didn’t before. What might be causing that to happen?
I have two out vets and three light fixtures on a breaker the breaker only trips when it rain I do have mice that had chewed on wire I have checked breaker wire any idea where to look first thank you
Great video Terry, I know what you mean, I have seen this type of work in Mexico, Brazil, and the Philippines. It can get dangerous, but they do what they can and get by. Best of luck with your new course - looks good!
The solution is simply to connect the neutral splice back together. The neutral path must be continuous and unbroken all the way back to the panel. Here's more information to have a look at. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
Yes. He was doing a renovation and had taken apart a splice in a junction box that he forgot about, so when he thought everything was safe to do so, he turned on the power and found his issue. Once I pointed out to him that his problem seemed to be an open neutral, he immediately remembered that junction box.
Question - is it allowed to run a visible white wire in a kitchen cabinet at all? For example a transformer for LED below the kitchen sink? Danger from possible leaks and mechanical damages?
Emil Tchilev it’s about a lot of common sense. You need to protect line voltage cables from mechanical damage and yes, from potential for water damage so you pick a location that accomplishes this keeping in mind that you have to put the transformer somewhere.
Yes, please show the splice that caused the problem. Other than that a great video, but without that additional information not sure how useful it is. Thanks again
I guess I could have shown a couple of white wires not connected together, but I thought explaining "white wires that should be connected, but were taken apart and not re-connected" would create a bit of a visual impression. But thanks for the feedback, you're not the first one to comment on that.
I have a 3 way switch from the top of the stairs to the cellar, the one in the cellar has just a switch were I can turn the lights on and off with the switch, what I want to do is hook a switch and outlet to the cellar. How would I hook it up?
It depends how the circuit is wired. If the power supply comes to that switch in the cellar, then it will be easily doable. If not, then it's not easy without running some cable.
@@theinternetelectrician The power does come down to the cellar, can you do a mockup of a 3 way switch going down to a cellar so I can see how you are setting it up it would be appreciated. Down the cellar I want to hook up a switch outlet. I just need the wiring on the switch receptacle.Thank You.
Hi, I need help, lol, my wall outlet went out as well as 2 lights, I checked and both white and black read 120v, but black to white read nothing, we haven't done any reno or anything, it just went out, also my breaker did not switch off. Thank you.
No, the intended path for the neutral conductor is open or broken so the path is not complete. Neutral (grounded) conductors are the intended path for the current flow, but it is at the same potential as the grounding or earthing conductors. So think of it this way. The breaker is on, the current flows to the switch. The switch gets turned on, and the current is now at the device ready to be used (think light bulb, appliance plugged in, etc) But the other conductor to complete the circuit is open or not complete. So the device does not work, but the potential difference (voltage) is there at the end of the broken wire ready to do it's job of completing the circuit, but it can't. So you measure what you think is supposed to be a 0V potential on a white wire, but to your surprise it shows 120V! If you complete the circuit by reconnecting the path, that measured potential will drop to 0V as it should, and the device will work with the now completed path. If you touch that open or loaded neutral thinking it shouldn't be "live", then you can complete the path and become the unintended conductor and get a shock!
What he's saying is that the neutral is loaded because it is open. The path to "unload" is the neutral path back to the panel, which is bonded to ground. If the bonded/grounded/neutral conductor becomes ungrounded it is then loaded the same as the ungrounded(hot/black) conductors. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Got a strange one here, had an issue with getting shocked of the meter box, the power co. opened the meter box, told me that the meter box was outdated and at fault because the neutral was not bonded to the box there. They made me install two new ground rods along with the existing plumbing ground inside. While disconnecting the power up top, to replace the meter box, with both hot wires disconnected from the pole, but the neutral still crimped, I went to check continuity to ground at the meter box and blew the fuse in the meter. I then checked voltage, and found I have 117v between the neutral wire from the pole and the meter box itself? Both hot leads from the pole are disconnected, the main is off, yet I got 117v seemingly from the neutral lead from the triplex run from the pole?
A picture is worth 1,000 words. You showed us everything except the cause of the problem. When it came time for that, all we got was a verbal explanation. Clear as mud.
Thanks for the comment, constructive criticism is welcomed here. This is a link to my website that helps with the explanation. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
Truly a waste of time for most people.
dick
Two comments that might help people: First, the key idea is voltage drop. Imagine a simple circuit that doesn't even have a switch. You attach hot and neutral to a simple lamp base with a bulb in it. This isn't realistic, but it helps get the idea across. The voltage on the hot terminal will be 120V. Current flows through the resistance provided by the bulb and this resistance causes the voltage to drop across the bulb. In fact, it drops 120V and the voltage on the neutral terminal will be zero. A voltage drop occurs ONLY when current flows. If you disconnect the neutral from the lamp base, current stops flowing. Therefore, the voltage drop across the bulb becomes zero. The terminal from which you disconnected the neutral is now up at 120V. No current is flowing, but the terminal is at 120V, ready to bite you. This is what happened in the circuit in the video. If you open a neutral in a circuit with current, you stop the current. All the voltage drops upstream of where you opened the neutral become zero and the voltage of the neutral on the conductor coming from upstream will go to 120/240 and the other neutral (heading back to the box) will be at zero.
Here's the second comment: Never trust a neutral. Here's what I mean. I had to replace a pigtail in a lighting outlet. Before making changes, I checked for voltage, hot and neutral, found voltage, and then opened breaker. I saw the voltage go away, so I knew that I had the right breaker (since I saw things turn off). "Never trust a neutral," means that, even though I had taken all due care in identifying the proper breaker, when I untwisted the neutral splice to do my work, I did not assume I was safe. Good thing, because, as the neutral splice opened, it arced. How was this possible, since power was off, as proven by probing for voltage and killing the circuit? Simple. Someone screwed up. Somehow, they managed to tie the neutrals of two circuits together somewhere. So, voltage went off on the hot in the outlet when I opened the breaker, and there was no voltage on the neutral, but there *was* current in the neutral from some other circuit (who knows where) and, when I opened that splice, I interrupted that other circuit, the voltage drops went away, and the neutral in the splice came up to 120V. Never trust a neutral.
Hope this helped.
Good additional information here! Thanks for posting and contributing to the education regarding this subject!
Pp
This definitely helped a lot. Thank you very much.
shared neutral ...
Some person got lazy and could not find the open N so they found another working circuit nearby from another breaker but with a working N and they tied into it ...
Thanks for this clear explanation , now everything makes sense
I understood what he said because I already saw a video where somebody actually explained it in an easy to understand manner. Terry gets a C- for his teaching skills on this one.
Terry uses the phrase "Further up in the circuit" which had me totally confused, as he just showed us that up the wall was located just a lamp socket. I believe Terry's perspective must be that "up the circuit" refers to wires closer to the pole outside, you know, the one that is "up in the sky." Agreed, his video is near useless. Would be better if he knew how to show a schematic and simulate a break in a wire.
@SEYMOUR SCAGNETTI he took the splice apart further up the stream. Since the light was switched on his body wanted to complete the circuit. Its pretty simple. Terry said all that
Where is the how to corrected ???
@@MakingBusinessesBetterAgain you guys are scaring me
@@itoibo4208 that's a little odd to say to each themselves, there is no guys though, I've met them @MakingBusinessesBetterAgain = all girls
I'm not a certified electrician, but have been keeping myself educated. I first started when I was ten years old in 1964 by reading books at the library. I started fixing table lamps and other electrical things for neighbors and friends. I later got into electronics and started fixing home record players, audio amplifiers, and other things as well. This did work well for me overall as in 2006, I got a job at a company that built power control equipment for subways and light/heavy commuter and other electric powered trains. I was also able to point out design faults in the equipment we built, mostly when wires were too close to what are called load measuring resistor packs that would get very hot. They were wired in parallel to track circuit breakers and were activated in short bursts when a circuit breaker tripped to measure current flow to determine if the short still existed. Sometimes my advice wasn't taken and equipment would fail when put into operation. I also studied building codes before I rewired the bathroom and kitchen in my house built in 1913. There's still some antique light switches and old wiring using single wires and ceramic knob tubes in the house, but there's no heavy loads on those circuits. I've subscribed to your channel and hit the bell. There's always something I can learn from videos like these. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! And for taking the time to comment!
being a good teacher is explaining complete details no matter how small or trivial it may seem
Right, I'm still wondering why he touched the black lead to the bottom of the junction box during one test, and the neutral wire, in another.
Very much appreciated. The average DIY'er often has very important things to understand about electricity, and certainly needs to take every precaution. Mistakes are often things that were never even thought of as possible, or careless oversights and assumptions.
While working for a heating company years ago I got a late night call for no heat. I get there to see a fairly new warm air furnace and instinctively I reach for the power switch mounted on the side to see if it's on and to see if may have been installed up side down. (on being in the down position) On touching the switch box I was lit up like a Xmas tree because the whole cabinet was hot! Turn off the breaker and open the box to see lots of wires under one wire nut.... and the connection was burnt to a crisp. There was NO neutral and nobody had bothered to tie the ground to the box or cabinet. 15 minutes later I had trimmed back to good wire, added a second wire nut, and grouped the neutrals into bunches of 3 with a jumper, plus tied the ground to the box. Back in business. In hind sight, had they run conduit to the switch box there probably would have been a secondary neutral path via ground, but this was a Romex run from the ceiling to the unit WITHOUT a hard ground connection. In that case it may not have provided heat but I wouldn't have been blown to the floor with a hot cabinet. Did I mention this house had a dirt floor? All the better reason to have a good neutral and ground. I never did find out who wired this thing but now I always check with my inductive tester first.
Yes, good idea (inductive tester)! You never know what you're going to find when coming in to a trouble-call!
I was having trouble with a TP Link smart dimmer switch. A Google search led me to this video, which was extremely helpful. It was great to see how to test the switch and eliminate problems. It turned out that I had the line and load wires reversed, hey both were black. Thanks for helping me out in a jam!
Showing the upstream splice would be nice. Showing how to correct the problem. Thanks for your videos.
As a home inspector I appreciate your calm demeanor and ability to communicate that things can be corrected.
I’ve run into this quite often in my house that was built in 1930 with cloth wrapped wires and porcelain insulators.. started replacing wires and outlets and figured out it was easier just to cut out all the old and start at the breaker box instead of routing them back the same way originally done and avoided a lot of unnecessary splicing.
Well, you explained it, but sped by the part about the splices. Might want to show that. Thanks.
Agreed. Explained it, but still some uncertainty.
He should have used a diagram. A classic example of someone knowing the situation so well they don't really know how to explain it clearly.
I most likely have a loaded neutral. I've had every expert over to help me figure it out. And they can't. Breaker is off and I still get shocked.
@@wannabecarguy did you test the breaker? Are you sure the correct breaker is turned off?
I agree, I sure wish he would’ve demonstrated or explained in more detail what/how it happened with the white wire his friend messed up.
Thank you Terry for adding to my knowledge, I'm trying to install and automatic electrical switch for a backup generator. I'm not and electrician but I am an engineer and know just about enough to get myself killed. lol I'm trying to learn enough to survive this project. Thanks again. and just incase someone is wondering, the answer is NO I will not be doing a video explaining how to do this once I figure it out. It's too dangerous to share with the general public and as an engineer it would be irresponsible of me to share this information with unqualified persons. I am actually unqualified myself so I definitely will not be sharing it with anyone else, Sorry.
Correct me if I am wrong... the neutral being hot is a result of backfeed from a common load passing back to an unbonded open circuit in the neutral... it’s also possible to blow up electronic appliances from a phase because of a non bonded neutral causing a 240v feed between loads. I learned on outdoor 120v branch circuits to use a double pole safety cut out switch disconnecting both hot and neutral as the neutral can have a different potential to grounds in the field which is a safety hazard even on circuits where the hot is switched off at the breaker. This is especially important when the circuit is brought to a location like a light pole or older commercial settings where ground potentials can vary widely.
An open neutral on your service conductors, or at the main panel can cause all sorts of issues, with 120V appliances and equipment subject to anywhere from 0 to 240V, depending on what else is turned on and off.
Great explanation. I've done electrical work for years but it never hurts to brush up on my skills.
Paul Maxwell thanks Paul!
I hope you are able to help. I have two light fixtures in my garage. I want to add two more light fixture to have a light more light. I bought 14/2 50 ft wire from the light fixture number I tapped into to it. I did white with white and black with black. The same light fixture has about 4 white wires and three black wires. With the new wire I did black to black and white to white and ground. I ran the wire about 12ft to the new desired place to shine more light. I bought i new fixture the has four screws two silver and two brass no ground screw. I connect the white cable to the silver screw as indicated and black to the brass screw. When I put everything back and turn the breakers back on the two light fixture turns on and the third which is the new one stays on and will not turn off. Please help
I think that you have a "switch leg drop" happening here. You tied in to the power supply hot wires, and the neutral. You need to connect to the white wires, and the hot wire that is connected to the first fixture instead of to the splice that has the 3 black wires. Watch this video and I think it will all make sense to you. From what you have described though, I'm thinking that they didn't quite wire the switch drop as they should have and I suspect you have a white wire that is connected to the hot for the first fixture? Check out the video and let me know if this makes sense now. th-cam.com/video/pnlHCiRN_RU/w-d-xo.html
I’ll never forget my first open neutral!
must be a "shocking experience" LOL
It definitely tickled. Found in a main. Detached. Definitely need to figure 60s 70s branch circuit...
Thank you, my name is Patrick from Uganda, your video helped me.
Between me watching another electrical video before yours, then specifically looking for one about open neutrals (finding yours), I finally understand what's happening. I believe I've seen that open neutral light, on a simple 3-prong plug tester, at my parents' house on certain outlets as well as at switches. Not being an electrician, obviously, I'm sure it'll be fun trying to trace the direction the current flows from each plug/switch to the next. 😕 I do appreciate your video though and you making it easy to understand. Idk why but I'm very mechanically inclined but have always avoided electricity issues beyond installing lights, switches, and outlets. I created a mental block for myself. LOL Thanks again!
So I have a bit of a different situation everything in my house is wired properly and was checked multiple times and has worked well over two years perfectly fine well this morning I wake up to only half of the house working and I draw the problem back to an outlet in the kitchen where everything kind of branches off of and it's acting like the neutral is not connected in the breaker box and I trace the line from point A to point B and there's no brakes no cuts no tears and it goes straight to the box but I cannot for the life of me get that neutral line to work if I jump the white line from a working receptacle over to the white line that is not working everything comes on so if you could maybe help me out with that it would be awesome
That is a weird one, but when you say that only half the house was not working, I would suspect a connection on one of the hot wires, either at the utility transformer, the meter base, or a half-tripped main breaker of a faulty main breaker or connections at the main breaker. The rest of your explanation is a bit puzzling. This needs some in person trouble-shooting. I'd call in an electrician that is good at problem solving.
@@theinternetelectrician I found the problem finally. My kitchen range was wired into the same receptacle as the lights on that half and had melted the wires together inside of it.
@@AndytheMachine OK, that's good that the issue was discovered. This needs to be properly rectified (obviously) and this unusual situation made safe and compliant again. It's an interesting case study and if you want to elaborate further with photos and more detail, send me an email to internetelectrician@gmail.com. It might make good subject matter for a future video.
Perfect explanation. Just went through this exact same thing. Followed my neutral wires and found where somebody had spliced them and they had come apart. Thank you.
Watching the video second time and now I understand 120v not coming the light on, I had that situation where a guy kept saying it’s the light fixture itself or I was not using right the wire nuts a hard head person but this video gave me a good understanding to keep moving and don’t stay to long dealing with the light fixture that is not coming on even if you have 120v
“So the answer is you have spliced up stream” What the hell does that mean? You explained everything well except the answer to our problem. I don’t remember splicing anything.
Yeah I found that frustrating too, that was the moment I was waiting for but then I skipped over it
Between this splice and the panel someone took apart the neutral splice, so your neutral becomes a hot.
What this means is the white wire (neutral) was connected from an outlet before it. Spliced wires simply mean connecting them, typically by twisting exposed tips then put in a wire nut to secure the connection. To understand the word "upstream", consider this: electricity goes to the circuit breaker, then goes in the the house, going thru outlet #1, then outlet#2, etc... till the last outlet. If you are working on the troublesome outlet#5, upstream includes outlets#1 thru #4.
This video says "you have spliced up stream", meaning the connection was done in an outlet before the one in work, and the connection could be broken at any of these. If outlet#5 is in trouble, go back the stream to test other outlets. Once you find a working one, the bad connection could be here or on the next one downstream. For example, you test #4 (found bad), #3 (found bad), #2 good. The bad connection could be at #2 or #3.
The pro electricians talk in their own language assuming that we are pro like them !!! It's very hard for us to understand. That is why I do not hire pro !!!
I have a post on my website about this that has line diagrams that might help you understand what goes on here. electrical-online.com. Search on open nuetral.
@@aarondavis176 he spoke in electrician terms so maybe a little confusing, but knowing electrical terminology everything he said came across loud and clear.
Well explained and to the point, no stupid side jokes or useless back stories
Thanks for the comment! Don't rule out any stupid jokes or useless back stories however, I've been know to do that once in a while! Thanks for watching, and I hope that you have subscribed to my channel, and gave the video a 'like'?
This is the best answer I find. The demo is superb. Thank you for the efforts!
If the nutural wire is purposly cut and not connected to any fixture, and just hanging off the wall, can it be stuffed back into the wall where it originated? If I turn on the electricity will this cause a fire in the wall?
I'm not sure I understand the question. You have a single white wire hanging out of the wall, and not a cable (bundled black, white, and ground?)
Add a junction box between the panel and the switch. Then disconnect the nuteral wires in the juntion box to demonstrate the open circuit.
Is there a way for my main power switch on panel to be shut off yet still showing use by electric bill?
That should not happen unless there is a connection to the system between the meter and the main breaker somehow? Happens with homes that were 'grow ops' at one time or another?
@@theinternetelectrician Thank you. I don't think this is issue. Maine CMP is charging for all sorts of stuff not actually used. PUC investigating. I have not used any - living fine off Solar panel and Jackery and propane heat. but they are still charging after disconnect notice 2 years ago.... I had only been paying $25-55 for approx 15 years. Also up to date on bills. Then got bill for over $600!!! I was driving tractor trailer over the road so not even home! I was just curious how something like this happens. Frustrating. TY for responding. Be Safe.
@@leemartin9156 Yeah, somethings not right! I can see a flat fee being charged if the service is still in place and useable if needed, but to jump like that, must be a mistake of some kind. Make them come out and point out what might possibly be using power when you're not! Got any neighbors that throw a cord over your fence and use your power while you're away? :-)
@@theinternetelectrician I had tried a couple years ago and they refused to send someone. I don't know if neighbors were hijacking, but they had to break in to use stuff. I know they have done that in the past and they steal anything not locked down....
Love my house but hate the slimeball neighbors.I had a brand new outside line, box, 200A panel etc installedprobably 15 years ago- before any of this came up. Could a master electrician tell me what is being used?
Well it was good verbal explanation but not good visual in a circuit diagram. Schematic in electricity is were the rubber meets the road... This video needs more work with a point A to point B fault and remedy. Missing is what is upstream causing the fault. WIKI would say this article needs to be more comprehensive.
Sorry, this was just an general information video regarding a situation a friend encountered, and an explanation why. I can do better next time!
Thanks!
I had this happen during a bathroom remodel in my home. Whole circuit was wire 100% with a loaded neutral. Found that at the source of power junction box the neutral going back into the original source had a poor connection. Rescrewed the wire nut on with 3 neutrals and bingo. Everything on circuit working.
Curiosity exactly what I thought too.
Woody Woodlstein Yea same here. I have this same issue but I don’t know where the neutral is open, I’d like to figure out the best way of testing it to determine where the fault could be.
Thank you. I have outside lights on a store that show a hot line wire but no current when timer is switched on for the neutral. I’ll have to follow the circuit up stream and see if a splice has been disconnected. Definitely 👍🏻 and a sub.
For the confused....checkout the diagram on his website. He explained it perfectly in the video but the diagram allows you to trace the path and makes it easier to envision.
You can see where the path is broken so current doesn’t flow, but voltage still gets to the neutral.
Touch the neutral and you complete the circuit.
Thanks William!
If it helps to explain, that exposed splice on the white (neutral) he was showing in the switch box would have been open (un-done). So he wouldn't be testing a "neutral" any longer. Only a section of white wire between the light and the switch. Unscrew the light bulb and you wouldn't get ANY reading between the switch and the end of the white wire since the light bulb filament is acting like a "coupling" (connecting the black to the white at the lamp) and extending the black wire that brings power to the lamp. Yes, a diagram or more physical demo would help.
You didn't show the main part!!
Exactly!
For real! Wheres the solution. Im dealing with the same issue in my garage
@@1ftintheflames The problem is that between the switch box and the panel, the neutral is disconnected. So the potential voltage has gone out on the hot, through the bulb and back down the neutral ...to where the break in the neutral is. Once he connects the 2 disconnected neutral wires (the "hot" neutral coming from the light and the switch box and the neutral wire that normally continues to the panel), everything will be OK.
In this example, his friend had taken apart a junction box ...what the video didn't explain is that the junction box is located between the switch and the panel.
Your 100% right. What a Waste! 😆
I have a open a reversed neutral in the kitchen. I change all the outlets, even change a light switch. I even changed my circuit breakers. I even checked the junction box that joins in the kitchen. And I still couldn't find the open neutral in the kitchen. Could it be behind a wall? Could it be that it's touching the 🔥 hot somewhere? Can it be a nail hitting it? What could it be? What can cause this?
Can I tell you thanks for the tips. I hate house wiring !!! I spent 2 days chasing wires on plugs and thankfully I found loose wires and or bad plugs which I replaced. What I didn’t expect was a ground that just fell off the post on a switch that had at least in my mind, nothing to do with the plugs that lost power !!! Blows my mind.
Why not show what happened in the box up stream? Also, with a plug in tester, it will show where the open neutral is, won't it?
Cool
That's why
www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
It will only show there is a open neutral on that circuit, not where it is. You could have half a dozen receptacles and a couple lights on a circuit, meaning you would have to hunt for it and knowing what to look for. Of course with cutting the breaker, exposing as he did, then carefully check. If that one is ok, go to the next. In this case, look for a disconnected white wire in a junction box. That is the usual culprit. Or in the case of someone twisting it too tight, it was broken and messing with it broke it off, not knowing, or simply didnt get it in the wire nut, if wires were not twisted. But again, make sure the breaker is off by using the plug in tester.
Tom Weller thats kinda what i thot, zap, hey someting wong..
Because it was simple. The neutral was not grounded at the panel. It was just floating. As it can be anywhere between the switch\outlet to the panel. And that can be anywhere. Including several other switches\outlets and boxes....
Great video. Based on what you explained and some of the public comments, folks, if you are not an electrician, don't play with electricity. Mistakes will ruin your day... At best... I'm 11kV qualified so I do have clue...
Have to agree. I had hot neutral and this video has left me even more confused as to why. Need to explain exactly what you mean by open neutral. Is it open that the panel or 'upstream'?
You get this situation when the neutral path is not complete. It could be anywhere in the circuit between where it is discovered and the panel. A splice in a junction box, or a broken or loose connection right at the neutral bar in the panel itself.
Most likely in a 120v outlet box, or light fixture box. Neutrals have joints tied together with wire nuts, or other connectors.
Good video. I always questioned why the industry calls the neutral a neutral. It’s a circuit return path. Think about it. There is no load below the bulb. And what does ohms law tell you? It relates voltage and current to load resistance. So with no current flowing back to the neutral bar, there is no voltage drop across your load. At least until you touch it in which case you become the return path!
Watch those neutrals!!! Esp. On older service work. Often you find shared neutrals. Two breakers or circuits sharing a common neutral. Here you can back feed power into the dead circuit. As the dead breaker has no current path, it’s a recipe for getting a new hair do!!!
Several times I have found several neutrals tied together with a massive solder joint and tape. Sometimes it’s OK, other times you may have a loaded neural when working on this.
So always check that neutral! It will tell you instantly if you have a loaded neutral.
If he would of shown and explained it with an electrical diagram what is happening at lot of more people would underestand.
Try this. And if you still have questions please don't hesitate to reach out. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
I got a shock from a white neutral last week replacing a pool pump. Assuming the white wire coming out of the small box on the side of the house near the pumps was neutral. Assuming the pumps were set up for 115. Nope. Somebody made 220 with three wires using the unshielded ground wire for the neutral. They started at the main box from a double breaker with red and black. Now how can I tell if the middle bare wire go's back to a common or a ground?
This is actually quite common, and is OK to do, IF, you identify that white wire as a hot wire wherever it is accessible, like in any junction box, or at the pump. Identify it by using black, red, (or even blue) electrical tape. The bare ground wire in this case is not a neutral. It is just an equipment ground wire. The difference being it does not carry current (intentionally that is, only in a fault condition) 240V loads don't need a neutral, the current is all on the 2 hot wires.
My left ear learned something today.
If you switch your headphones and re-watch the video your right ear will, too.
Sorry again for the audio. Our mistake in the evolution of learning. It happened in our settings when we uploaded the video.
Try connecting your right ear to ground.
Maybe He has a Open Neutral...
Z71Ranger Z71 ranger try Silverado that fits.
Hi and thank you for the information !
In our country - Bulgaria. The really old houses wirings, probably in the oldest lefted on villages houses has only two fuses for breaker for the whole house from the transformer to the everything around the house - one for the live wire and another one for the neutral, because couple of time ago in our country, the law requires only dual house wirings /with only live and neutral in the house, without ground/ and also - contacts with no grounding /the appliances manufactured then in our country was at law - double insulated/. So, one time i started diagnosing him, telling father to stop the fuse, and he misappealy take off the neutral one. So I wondered for a little why it has live on the both conducters even in the destributions on the wall /in the housing them in our area, it has destribution boxes in the walls before to go to every Individual outlet or socket. And there, the wires for the sockets and lamps are tied up together. I am figured it out suddenly, so that my dad has taked off only the one fuse - neutral one from my grandpa's house. Haha
But here how it can happen dangerous faults !!!
"He found that he had open splices further up the circuit".
Well... that's fine & dandy. But...
That really doesn't give you the actual reason why he had 120 on his neutral. People are gonna ask about those open splices further up the circuit, where the cause of the problem is. So what actually was the cause? For example, the same neutral, at the opposite end of the circuit might probably be connected to a hot leg. If that were the case, then you've given a reason why your neutral is loaded.
If someone's sewer is blocked & wants to know why... the EASY answer is: there's a problem somewhere down the line. Well, no shit. The answer is with the actual problem, which everyone wants to know.
Unless... I've missed something? Sorry. Don't mean to jump on your back. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten the uninitiated.
The cause was that he had taken apart a splice while he was doing his renovations and had forgot that the splice was still open. Once re-connected as it should have been, all was well. This was just to explain how and why you can have a reading of 120V on a neutral, that should be at earth or ground potential.
I apologize if I sounded rude.
I appreciate the fact that you made the effort to shed some light on the subject. I was in a pissy mood to begin with, and vented on ya. My bad.
Thanks for the quick reply. Best of luck to you.
Problem is I'm not enlightened!
John Smith John... I respect your honesty. And thanks again for the effort to make your video.
It would be great if you could do a video demonstrating what he did and how to correct it
Hello. I have a unused 220 line coming to an outlet for a range. Can the outlet plug be remove and splice in another line same gauge and extend this line to another area to hook up baseboard heat? In so in essence using the existing box as a junction box?
Yes, you can do this. You could even use appropriately sized cable for the baseboard heater requirements as long as you drop the breaker size to match the wire size. For example, if you need a 20A, 2-pole breaker for you baseboard heater, you could splice in #12/2 at the range junction box. Just make sure the breaker you use is sized to the smallest conductor used in the circuit.
I wish I could see a diagram of what happened..
Here is a more detailed look at this with diagrams.
www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
You shouldn't mess with electrical wiring, that's what should happen. OMG people, really? Are you THAT dense?
I know this is old, but you are the only source I found to explain this problem! I was searching for a day and a half trying to figure this out.
Thank-you! Most of the comments are from those still confused so I'm happy to hear from the ones that do understand!
The more I study electricity the more I realize how much I don't know 😅
You keep studying electricity and I assure you when you think you know all there is to know you will actually be a babbling idiot
He didn't really explain how it happened.
I started taking a few courses hoping that I will know everything. The more I learned, the less I know. I went up to Master Degree and still learning every day!
I also feel the same
Pure sorcery! 😆
Grounded or floating neutral. Ha a journeyman electrician (supposedly) almost got me killed by floating a neutral feed into an outer building from the main MCC. Good explanation.
My only question after watching this video is what is an open or loaded neutral?
Neutral wire is WHITE, open means it is not connected to anything. Let say a light bulb has black and white wires connected to it. When turn ON, the black wire will carry electricity (from another black wire thru the switch), the electricity goes thru the light filament and goes to the white wire which is OPEN (not connected). So this white wire (open neutral) now measures 120 Volts, meaning it is LOADED.
I am an engineer not a professional electrician who like to explain things using their own language which confuses us. I learned to explain the popular way so popular people can understand.
How to fix this issue ? Tough job as this neutral wire is part of a circuit for many outlets and the white wire could be opened (broken connection or not connected) at any of these. I know how to track this down but cannot explain it in details here.
The order in which things happen determines which terminology is relevant. The neutral only becomes loaded IF it is open (disconnected from the breaker box) AND the circuit is energized WITH something (the light bulb) that is capable of sending current to its neutral side connection.
The hot side “wants” to reverse (alternate) current flow but never can until it’s brought down by ground (in a proper AC circuit) or by you (if you are unfortunately the ground).
Now go back and read my second sentence because of course neutral is STILL loaded in a correctly wired circuit, too. Disconnect neutral and the circuit stops. So, “artificially loaded” might be a better way of characterizing the faulty condition.
And there ain’t none of that nuance in this video unfortunately, which is why it’s not as clear as it could be.
Ok I have an issue with a closet light that suddenly stopped working. House was built in 2003. I have done no electrical work previously. Checked bulb first no issue there. Got my voltage tester out and no power on the hot to the switch. But then I checked the 2 neutrals that were tied together in the box and there is power on the neutrals. I checked the other switches and outlets on the circuit for a loose wire and nothing. Breaker has never popped. I’m stumped on this one.
That is a puzzler with what you are describing. Something like this takes an experienced troubleshooter electrician. Sometimes things don't make any logical sense until you find where the problem is and then it can all be rationalized, but this needs some hands on checking. If you were within a 30 minute drive from me I'd be right over!
You need to show a diagram. The switch must be on, right? if the switch is turned off then no power should be at the neutral.
Yap when Mr Terry connected last one nutro to gound his power was on at swich so circuit was complited for hot & nutro and on top of that he complited another circuit with multimeter nutro to gound ofcorce nutro it hot swich was on from hot to nutro by multimeter he complited Nutro to ground so its hot again.
It should be hot swich was off and nutro it self carring current right sir?
But swich was on and connecting nutro to ground curring current ofcorce sir.
If I'm saying wrong please correct me sir thanks.
I have a different question, I replaced fabric cable with romex, TWO unrelated branches (both previously upgraded) are reading continuity across the hot and neutral.
I found out the hard way.
2 cables going to different rooms. I'm really confused
So just to be clear, you read continuity from hot to neutral? This would be normal and expected unless there was nothing plugged into any receptacle and no light switches are on, etc.
all current ultimately goes back to neutral and or ground rod through ground water back to power generation location.
At substations there is a huge array of copper rods into ground to actual generator and or transformers. We installer alot of sub stations. Many do not realize all current has to go in circle back to lowest potential. Shalom
that is just not true, go look it up, ground rods into the earth are for lightning for the most part
I have a subpanel out in the garage, where the ground and neutral busbars are tied together. Then a black wire with a yellow stripe goes back to the house. I haven't looked in the house yet to see if I can figure out what is really happening, but I assume the striped wire is a neutral. Is the subpanel in this configuration wired correctly? If so, do I even need grounds for hookups off the subpanel box, because they're just tied to neutral (until they get back to the main panel) anyway?
Check with you local code, but where I was trained in the trade, if you ran a sub-feed to an outbuilding like this, if you ran 4 conductors (2 hot, nuetral and ground), then you did not bond the neutral to the ground at the sub-panel. But if you only run 3 conductors, then you must establish another suitable ground (earthing) point at the panel location and then bond the neutral as it appears is the case with yours. Then all the circuits fed from that panel must still have a ground wire in all the cables to keep earth and neutral separate from the panel onward. If that ground wire goes back to the main panel grounding system, then that isn't correct and you are vulnerable to floating ground current on that conductor.
@@theinternetelectrician thank you; I have an electrician coming by today; will ask him.
Terry, Thanks for your videos. But,...As a retired industrial/residential electrician, "I" understand the situation. But people who really have no business messing with electrical wiring have no idea what you are talking about without you showing by example what caused it, rather than to just mention it. Without being rude, without that, the video is rather useless for the unknowing novice. Sorry, just constructive criticism. BTW, the worst messes I have ever had to correct is when people of such, mess around with 3 way, 4+ way switching. Totally screwed up. Novice people have no idea what NEC Code is either. These people also need to realize that they can screw themselves beyond belief from their insurance companies when regardless of being the home owner or not, as some jurisdictions still say that's ok. But MANY City charters say NO and have absolutely in no uncertain terms that it is not allowed. That you MUST use a certified electrician who will sign off and some as in the State of Tenn., requires a City Inspector to approve, before use. Some cities, such as Chattanooga, and others have city codes that are far more detailed and additions beyond the NEC. And of course you have to comply.
Tony. I appreciate your input, and of course I have dealt with people that share your viewpoint countless times. I try to only help the DIY'er with simple electrical repairs or projects, and always explain to them that they must see if they are allowed to do the work by way of a homeowner permit. Electrical replacements in kind (change a broken switch or a worn receptacle) do not require a permit in most cases. To deny that people do their own electrical work regardless of what you or I think is to deny the 2 - 4 isles dedicated to electrical and lighting in any home improvement store. I'm only trying to help what is already getting done, get it done correctly and safely. Keep looking on TH-cam here and you will find handymen from all walks of life teaching electrical as well. At least I have the training so it's not the blind leading the blind.
Here is a link to my website with more detail on the open neutral issue. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
Constructive thought, yes did need to show where the open neutral was.
If the neutral was open outside at the entry point, would we get a shock
on the unbalanced portion of current, trying to get back to the transformer?
thank you as always.
@flexmaster And you are free to do so, just understand that your homeowner's policy can put 2 and 2 together and find that a convenient excuse not to pay out your claim. Related... or not.
flexmaster I hear ya, people make mistakes though which is why it never usually hurts to have a review done of work. People that don’t understand what they are doing cause problems for the ones smart enough to research
I have run into this myself on a few occasions... SUPPRISE!
While your explanation and demonstration was great, showing it schematically (as in a a diagram) would have been most helpful, as well as showing the opened up-stream neutral leg.
And here it is! Thanks for watching
www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
Hello, Terry. My class and I watched your video and we had a question about circuits. We are currently studying single circuits and parallel circuits and we would like to know if there is no load, will the current still flow through the connectors (wires)?
Heather Reilly no, if there is no load, no current will flow. Think of it like water in your homes pipes. If the valve is closed, (switch off) there is no water flowing (current flow). There is still pressure there (voltage or potential) but until you open the valve and make use of the water pressure, no water will flow.
But if you touch it and have another part of your body touching ground, you will be the load (you may glow like a light bulb). 😉
EXACTLY; the question was answered, but given the "potential" for grave danger of electrical shock, i would have included your statement as a, "just be aware though", inclusion.
Ok...
QUESTION:
WHY I TURNED OFF THE SWITCH AND STILL MY TESTER BEEPS INDICATE IS A HOT POWER (BLACK WIRE)
TURN OFF SWITCH AND TURN OFF THE LIGHTS... BUT STILL SHOW POWER.
😱.
In USA the plastic boxes don't have a ground strap on the screw threads, they should, like Canada, eh?
Thanks, this explains the theory behind half of my problem.
My current issue is:
Mobile Home with panel wired like a subpanel (bonding at the pole)
Panel has 50 amp main breaker with 4 conductor pigtail to 4 prong plug
Plug to outlet on pole protected by another 50 amp breaker/shutoff. Direct to meter/ power co.
Power off at pole for all work😀 turned on for test only
After scratching my head for the longest time, I disconnected all circuits (8)
Capped off all hot and neutral wires, left all grounds connected.
Tested main lugs
Test showed 120 between ground and neutral just like your example but......
I also see that if I connect a test load (60 watt bulb) to any breaker if I switch the
Load on I get 0 volts on the red terminal and 240 on the black
When the load is off it is 120/120
Took the cover off the supply on the pole the neutral was burnt and open
Explaining the 120 on neutral to ground.
What causes the 120/120 shift to 0/240...?
Thanks for the help
i feel sorry for you Terry!... people it was an open Neutral!!.... he doesn't have to show you anything!! just imagine in your head the WHITE WIRES NOT CONNECTED!!.. that's all.. plain and simple.. if there not connected the circuit is open which means its not complete which means with AC you have to have a complete circuit or you will have no light! once he hooke the white wires back up the circuit was complete again.
Thanks for the support!
that why pigtails are good in every box. There's less chance of an open neutral. Also everything beyond that point will keep working properly
@@zeus3358 Yes, sir. I also like to pre twist all connections before putting the wire nuts because they will never come apart unless you purposely untwist them.
EDIT: I changed my downvote to an upvote due to the OP reply. Terry: I would suggest you add a 30 second trailer to your video showing where the problem was in your example for all to see. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Try this, and if you still need further explanation I'll be happy to help you out. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
@@theinternetelectrician thanks
Wish there was a drawing
I agree, does not make sense,
www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
it does make sense, imagine your neutral disconnected at the panel. 120v rides up the black wire from your panel to the switch, then to your light when in the on position, power goes through the light then down through your neutral but has no where to go, no street neutral and no ground path. this is why ground rods at your meter are a great idea in case your aluminum neutral lets go or a tree takes down your overhead service. it can fry circuit boards and even cause fires in motors. tvs, refrigerators, dishwashers, dvd players, phone chargers, computers, monitors, etc. are all prone to failure in these situations. I've witnessed some pretty bad insurance claims
Thanks Joseph! It does make sense!
great job, it does make sense to me, someone who has been doing this for 15+ years, but to someone trying to learn, it may require a diagram or an in depth video on this.
Hello. i have a 100 amp subpanel i ran to my garage. when i bought the subpanel there was no ground bar so i bought this and installed it into the box and ran a ground into the ground outside, two 6 ft grounds 6ft apart. I have two hot wires and one neutral ran from the original box and get 121V to each hot wire when checking between each hot and nuetral. when i ran power to a switch and to outlets in the roof for lights, first problem was i was getting a reversed hot and neutral code on my tester. so i switched the hot and neutral and everything worked when i ran another leg to some outlets , when the breaker is off for the outlets but the other leg with lights is on i still have a hot neutral until i switch off the breaker for the lights.
This needs some hands on trouble-shooting and observation.
Nice video but you didn't show the problem!
Bill Handymanbill as I’ve said before here, I could have shown a picture of white wires not spliced together and that would have added to the detailed explanation?
I got 2 15amp receptacles on one circuit at my home. One has power from the breaker(4 wires, 2 white, 2 black and 2 grounds twisted together), it feeds other recep which has 2 wires and ground, 1 white, 1 black. The main recep works perfect, the fed recep only shows ground(119v). When I test the white and black, I got nothing, or really the multi meter shows like 1 or 2 or 0 or goes back and forth between those as I hold leads on white and black. When I hold leads on white and ground it shows 0. When I hold leads on black and ground it shows 119. The main recep from breaker shows 119-120 or so on both of the white/blacks. Ground on both black/ground. 0 on both white/ground tests. I;m able to do this testing on the bare wires as I took both the main recep and the fed recep off walls. It's now bare wires at both outlets, easy for me to test them.
I can't figure out why the fed recep does not have anything when testing black/white. Black/ground has the right voltage, white/ground has 0. I put new recep at the main one that feeds the other recep. Didn't fix it. Same prob.
At the breakerbox, this circuit's breaker is the only one that has the red test button on the breaker. Prob because these 2 are 15amps and both are on porches(covered porches don't get rained on, but outside nevertheless). The 2 outlets never had and still do not have gfci receps. They never had those type out there. Both of these outlets have always worked fine until about a year ago. This house was built in 1987 or so. It's in SC. I'm just Stumped here. The 2 outlets are on porch's in back and front of house. Porches are covered though. But still, they're outside technically. They both came with the house(not installed by any me or any previous homeowners).
That's the trouble shooting and the work I did to try to fix the fed recep at back porch. The power lines don't go under house, in the walls and drop to receps. Man, not sure what to troubleshoot next or what to test, check, etc, at this point. Sucks too. I need that power at back porch's outlet.
Could the actual breaker be bad? But then I think why would main recep work fine.
Should the receptacles be gfci's? They never have been. They both used to be the older push in type and someone had changed that fed recep, at back porch, sometime before I bought this house about 10 yrs ago to a newer type, not gfci though, and it's worked fine for past 9 years. No mice here, rats, rodents, etc. It's crawlspace, brick, not mobile home, no issude with electrical since I've been here. Clean house. No rot, trash, yard growth, in other words it's just a regular decent house, not anything spectacular but not anything nasty or neglected.
That front main recep was the old style still and I just put that newer type recep in it's place to try to back porch to work. In other words I took the one from back porch and replaced old push in style main one on the front, wired all 4 wires to it, left the 2 grounds twisted like they were, to get the old style out of the circuit- still same issue at fed back porch recep! This sucks.
Can a whole entire white neutral wire just go bad, like from the main recep to the fed recep? Ughhh! I know I've done the trouble shooting correctly, I know no matter what the balck/white show nothing, the black/ground show 119 or 120 or so, the white/ground show 0.
You have done all you can for trouble-shooting and I don't think you've missed any of the easy fixes for this. you have a bad cable between the receptacles. This could be caused by a number of things. There might be a splice in a junction box somewhere between them? That would be nice because maybe a splice on the neutral is bad inside that junction box, and can be fixed up. The other culprit could be a cable staple or drywall nail or screw that pierced the cable and damaged the neutral conductor. This can happen over time if the conductor was compromised but not severed completely, and eventually it burns apart. Or it could have been something that happened recently? Did you pound any nails in to hang a picture? Any renovations lately that might have resulted in a damaged cable?
Anyhow, your only solution if you don't find a junction box and bad splice is to replace that cable and abandon the one that is bad. Could be a challenge with finished walls, etc. Other option would be conduit on the outside from front to back, or a combination of cable fishing and conduit.
This circuit is fed by a GFCI breaker, so having regular receptacles at those location is just fine as the protection is at the breaker for the circuit. If your breaker ever failed, a solution is to replace with a regular breaker and change the first receptacle to a GFCI and then feed the next one on the load side terminal of it.
@@theinternetelectrician, wow. You nailed Terry. Big help too. I really appreciate that you took the time it took to help me! Grateful. I now got it from here, will prob do the line in the conduit on outside in this house's situation. At least i can put new one exactly where i want it now. Man, we can't thank you enough.
@@MichaelBorne-rh8co Happy to have helped! I need a "buy me a beer" button on my website and TH-cam Channel!
Those open neutrals can be tricky...and deadly...
I was called to a newly constructed home on a service call because the plumbers said they were getting shocked by their faucets...
It took me a while but I finally tracked down and fixed the problem: The neutral on the load side in the meter base was never tightened at all...
Yup, that will do it! And the problem with those is that it's usually random, sometimes connected, then it opens up causing the issues to not be consistent.
What he showed isn’t this only possibly if it’s a multiple circuit or 3 wire ?if you have 2 wire open neutral won’t show anything
No solution. Down vote
Sorry Ed, this was only to explain how this situation can happen. The solution is to ensure you have a continuous path for current to flow back to the panel on the grounded conductors (neutrals).
I have some lamps where the neutral is not connected, but the ground is connected to the neutral wire. The neutrals also have power. I'm about to redo the whole apartment, breaker panel and every outlet. I think we should find the problems tracing everything back to the panel, or who knows? I'm also changing about 12 breakers as well because of the weirdness. I disconnected the neutral to the garage light and it works, so I have to start over.
That needs some serious investigation for sure!
Terrible video - He never showed why the problem or how he corrected it.
Charles, as I've pointed out before, I could have showed 2 white wires not connected to each other. The problem is corrected by completing the neutral path as it should be. This is an explanation of how you can get a reading of 120 V on a white wire that should be a neutral, and how an open circuit on the neutral side can cause this.
Good morning
How are you
I have a question. I have two wires coming out of an electrical box. One of them brings power and the other goes to an outlet
When I put my voltmeter test leads on the hot and neutral of the power wire it reads 119 as expected. When I put the test leads on the hot wire of the power wire and the box itself it reads 67 volts
What’s could be the problem? Does it mean that my outlet box is not at 0? If it’s at 52 then the difference between the hot lead on the power wire and the box will be 67? How do I find out where the problem is?
Thank you
That means that you have a poor (or non-existent) grounding system. Maybe the (grounding/ earthing) bare wire isn't connected to the outlet box grounding terminal, or is poorly connected, or maybe your cables are just 2-wire without a ground wire? (older home?). If you do have 2-wire cable + ground, do you have 119V from hot to it? If so, then just correct the problem of the outlet box not being connected properly and that should solve it. Feel free to provide some more detail and information here.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Much appreciated.
I had screw in drywall penetrating cable black with white wires. Lights still were working correctly. I found out this, once replacing switch. Took me whole day to solve the problem.
I have run into several of these with broken or disconnected neutrals in stab in the back outlets. Also people running screws into wires in the wall.
I also would have like to see what he did in the box! I like your videos because the sound and video filming are great with no camera shaking.
Thanks! What happened upstream was just a neutral splice that was disconnected breaking the path of current flow back to the panel.
Check out this post on my website for more details. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
Just had a similar situation. Outstanding explanation to an annoying issue. thank you!
Great Job. Your knowledge was solidified in my book when you correctly called the neutral a grounded conductor. Not many electricians know the difference between a grounding conductor and a grounded conductor.
So if the white wire is the grounded conductor and you break the conductor upstream the conductor cannot complete its purpose to take the voltage to ground in the electrical service through the grounding electrode conductor. It then becomes solely a current carrying conductor looking for a path to ground and preventing any current to pass through the load connected to it. So when the fellow touched the white wire he became the least resistance to ground.
I have 4 overhead lights and 6 plugs on same cercit... One day the lights stoped working and the plugs still worked... And the next day the lights came back on ... It's done it 3 times now... I've swaped out all plugs and checked all the lights can't find anything wrong ?
I suspect you have a bad splice in a wire nut somewhere that is intermittently opening up. Check all the connections on neutral and hot conductors.
I have an old appliance i was working on. And noticed when i touch the woodstove and the appliance i got a little tingle of electricity. I connected a grnd to the appliance to the outside metal of the outlet and it turned on the appliance even though the switch was off. Furthermore i was unable to turn it off unless i disconnected the plug! What is going on. ?????
Okay so I set up a 3 way switch under my home at two entry points to light both sides without having to go to the other door. I think I see what I done. I got the power going to switch one on the black screw, and the two travelers going to to the other switch. I'm not sure if it matter if the travelers are hooked up on the same side, but that's how I hooked them up putting the reds on the side with the black screw, and the black on the other side. The neutrals are tied together, except for one spot where I had too many neutrals, so I think I should have put a jumper on the main neutrals. As it see it in my head now, I have the neutrals for this new circuit most likely not tied to the rest of the house. I was thinking it might be a bad receptical or switch, but I think I just need to get back down there and jumper the neutrals to the house circuit. Thanks! I'll let you know if that worked!
Yup, that was it. I had a cluster of 9 commons, and I didn't pay attention to if it was hooked up to the old circuit. So I added a jumper from the one that wasn't hot, to the ones that were hot, and now none are hot and the lights came instantly! Imagine that!
my.. you explain things well Terry... Thank you so much..
Thanks Jon!
Helpful info, thanks. I have come across this situation recently. And this is the explanation I have been looking for!
Thanks for watching Ryhan! I appreciate the comment, and I hope that you gave it a 'like', and that you subscribed to my channel!
QUESTION, i put an electrical meter probe between the smaller 120v blade opening of an outlet and the ground probe to the sheet metal covering my pole building. should it read zero volts or 120 volts. mine says 120v. everything powers up but can i be electrocuted.
Sounds like everything is as it should be. Neutral (grounded conductor) and earthing or grounding system should be at the same potential. So with your meter you should get 120v reading from hot to neutral, and hot to ground. Thanks for watching!
@@theinternetelectrician thanks for fast reply and peace of mind.
I don't have a loose neutral on my junction box but still have a hot neutral. I disconnected an old firealarm will that cause an open neutral?
Could be? Would have to do some hands on trouble-shooting there.
We bought a old 50's home and I am changing all the plugs, switches and covers for looks and some plugs were worn out. I have a plug attached to a switch that was showing a reverse hot and neutral but the wires to screws are correct by color. just to see I reversed the first set of wires and it reads correct when on but the wires are now white to brass and black to silver. but in both positions they show hot neutral when the wires and screws are matched. I always check for power even after turning off the breaker. Is this ok to leave like this until I can hire a pro to follow and check all connection points since it reads correct with the wires reversed.
Have that checked out and if you can, leave the circuit off until you do. Could be any number of reasons but most likely just someone adding to a circuit and reversing the wire colors. Is there a ground wire in the cables, or just 2-wire cable?
I reinstalled a breaker after removing it for testing. Now I have two wires with 120 on them, when I didn’t before. What might be causing that to happen?
I have two out vets and three light fixtures on a breaker the breaker only trips when it rain I do have mice that had chewed on wire I have checked breaker wire any idea where to look first thank you
Great video Terry, I know what you mean, I have seen this type of work in Mexico, Brazil, and the Philippines. It can get dangerous, but they do what they can and get by.
Best of luck with your new course - looks good!
Thanks Dave!
Did he offer a solution to fix? Or did I miss it?
The solution is simply to connect the neutral splice back together. The neutral path must be continuous and unbroken all the way back to the panel. Here's more information to have a look at. www.electrical-online.com/understanding-an-open-or-loaded-neutral/
So what was the problem? Somewhere on the circuit the neutral was not connected??
Yes. He was doing a renovation and had taken apart a splice in a junction box that he forgot about, so when he thought everything was safe to do so, he turned on the power and found his issue. Once I pointed out to him that his problem seemed to be an open neutral, he immediately remembered that junction box.
Question - is it allowed to run a visible white wire in a kitchen cabinet at all? For example a transformer for LED below the kitchen sink? Danger from possible leaks and mechanical damages?
Emil Tchilev it’s about a lot of common sense. You need to protect line voltage cables from mechanical damage and yes, from potential for water damage so you pick a location that accomplishes this keeping in mind that you have to put the transformer somewhere.
Yes, please show the splice that caused the problem. Other than that a great video, but without that additional information not sure how useful it is. Thanks again
I guess I could have shown a couple of white wires not connected together, but I thought explaining "white wires that should be connected, but were taken apart and not re-connected" would create a bit of a visual impression. But thanks for the feedback, you're not the first one to comment on that.
I have a 3 way switch from the top of the stairs to the cellar, the one in the cellar has just a switch were I can turn the lights on and off with the switch, what I want to do is hook a switch and outlet to the cellar. How would I hook it up?
It depends how the circuit is wired. If the power supply comes to that switch in the cellar, then it will be easily doable. If not, then it's not easy without running some cable.
@@theinternetelectrician The power does come down to the cellar, can you do a mockup of a 3 way switch going down to a cellar so I can see how you are setting it up it would be appreciated. Down the cellar I want to hook up a switch outlet. I just need the wiring on the switch receptacle.Thank You.
Hi, I need help, lol, my wall outlet went out as well as 2 lights, I checked and both white and black read 120v, but black to white read nothing, we haven't done any reno or anything, it just went out, also my breaker did not switch off. Thank you.
Did you get this fixed? Sounds like an open neutral problem at a splice or termination somewhere?
I’m confused. Is the neutral short circuiting to ground?
No, the intended path for the neutral conductor is open or broken so the path is not complete. Neutral (grounded) conductors are the intended path for the current flow, but it is at the same potential as the grounding or earthing conductors. So think of it this way. The breaker is on, the current flows to the switch. The switch gets turned on, and the current is now at the device ready to be used (think light bulb, appliance plugged in, etc) But the other conductor to complete the circuit is open or not complete. So the device does not work, but the potential difference (voltage) is there at the end of the broken wire ready to do it's job of completing the circuit, but it can't. So you measure what you think is supposed to be a 0V potential on a white wire, but to your surprise it shows 120V! If you complete the circuit by reconnecting the path, that measured potential will drop to 0V as it should, and the device will work with the now completed path. If you touch that open or loaded neutral thinking it shouldn't be "live", then you can complete the path and become the unintended conductor and get a shock!
What he's saying is that the neutral is loaded because it is open. The path to "unload" is the neutral path back to the panel, which is bonded to ground. If the bonded/grounded/neutral conductor becomes ungrounded it is then loaded the same as the ungrounded(hot/black) conductors.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct!
Why is there no voltage from the top black wire to the neutral, and only the bottom black to neutral?
How do you correct that. Can you show us
@@Jose-z9g6l just by reconnecting the neutral splice that was taken apart. Neutral needs to be a continuous path back to the panel
Got a strange one here, had an issue with getting shocked of the meter box, the power co. opened the meter box, told me that the meter box was outdated and at fault because the neutral was not bonded to the box there. They made me install two new ground rods along with the existing plumbing ground inside.
While disconnecting the power up top, to replace the meter box, with both hot wires disconnected from the pole, but the neutral still crimped, I went to check continuity to ground at the meter box and blew the fuse in the meter. I then checked voltage, and found I have 117v between the neutral wire from the pole and the meter box itself?
Both hot leads from the pole are disconnected, the main is off, yet I got 117v seemingly from the neutral lead from the triplex run from the pole?
So the neutral connection back to the panel was open. I've read approx 36v on neutrals in operation,but didn't receive shock from them.