Thyotokos was the grave sin. “You have left your first love.” Artemis of Ephesus. So much perseverance, yet a sin that they needed to repent of, or lose their lampstand! It led to the worship of Mary. Reactionary theology because of Nestorian christology.
At 1:52, I must say that I disagree with Dr. Haykin, what he doesn't understand about the nature of God the Holy Spirit and about the Word, the Son of God, and about the distinction made by the Apostle John regarding "proceed" and "sent" is important. I disagree for the following reasons: In AD 589, a church council in Toledo, Spain, modified the Nicene Creed so that the Holy Spirit would proceed from the Father and the Son. (In Latin, and the Son is filioque, so this is known as the filioque clause.) There may not have been any particular motive for this change, because it looks like something a scribe would do to mend the text. The possible intention to the change was to strengthen the defense of the Trinity. The filioque clause spread through the western part of the church. In 796, Paulinus of Aquileia defended the filioque clause at the Synod of Friuli, which indicates that it was opposed, and after about 800, it crept into the liturgy in the Frankish Empire. Some Frankish monks used the filioque clause in their monastery in Jerusalem in 807, but eastern monks disputed it as improper. Because the Frankish monks were from the west, the matter was escalated to the bishop of Rome (Pope Leo III). He approved of the sentiment, but he opposed the change in the wording. Leo arranged for the creed in its original form (without the filioque clause) to be engraved on silver tablets and he had them placed at St. Peter’s tomb. After the split between Rome and Constantinople in 1054, the filioque clause became part of the Nicene Creed in the Roman Catholic Church. This happened at the Council of Lyons, in France, in 1274. In 1439, at the Roman Catholic Council of Florence, the Roman Catholic Church invited the Eastern Orthodox Churches and attempted a reunion. There were many issues, some of which seem trivial today, but the most important ones were the papacy and the filioque clause in the Creed, which is our subject here. The Orthodox delegates to the council agreed to everything the Roman Catholics wanted, but they were under pressure. At the time, Islam was spreading by warfare, and Orthodox lands were under attack. All attempts to make peace had failed. The Orthodox wanted military aid from the west, and the pope agreed to help them, but only if they signed the agreement. Therefore, they all did, except for Markos Eugenikos, the titular bishop of Ephesus. He did not sign the agreement because he thought it was a sell-out. The pope announced that without Markos’ signature the deal was off. When the Orthodox delegation returned home, only Markos was hailed as a hero, because he was the only one who did not compromise his integrity-the others regretted their actions. In the west, Markos is viewed as the man who prevented the unity of the church. In the east, he is St. Mark of Ephesus, “the conscience of Orthodoxy.” Eastern Orthodox and orthodox Christians do not accept the filioque clause for scriptural, theological, and procedural reasons: Scriptural Reasons The Orthodox argue from Scripture that the Father sends the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name (John 14:26). Jesus declares that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father (John 15:26). There is a difference in the biblical words used for “send” and “proceed.” The Greek word “send” in the Gospel of John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:7 means “to bid a thing to be carried to one or to send a thing into another.” The only other word Jesus used for “send” in Luke 24:49 is “apostello” which means “to order one to go to a place appointed.” The Greek word used in John 15:26 “proceeds” means ” to go forth from, go out of, depart out of, to issue from, to flow forth, to proceed from.” The filioque “and the Son” adds to the revelation of Holy Scripture. To say that Scriptural references to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ validate the filioque clause does not render the correct interpretation and understanding. Theological Reasons Everyone at the Second Ecumenical Synod knew well that this question was settled once and for all by the use in the Nicene Creed of the word “procession” as meaning the manner of existence of the Holy Spirit from the Father which constitutes His special individuality. Thus, the Father is unbegotten, i.e., derives His existence from no one. The Son is from the Father by generation. The Holy Spirit is from the Father, not by generation, but by procession (John 15:26). The Father is cause, the Son and the Holy Spirit are caused. The difference between the ones caused is the one is caused by generation, and the other by procession, and not by generation. The Holy Spirit is an individual “hypostasis” with individual characteristics or properties not shared by other “hypostases,” but He does share fully everything the Father and Son have in common, to wit, the Divine essence and all uncreated energies and powers. The Holy Spirit is an individuality Who is not what is common between the Father and the Son, but has in common everything the Father and the Son have in common. This, in relation to Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos), the Son of God, is united to His humanity by nature or hypostatically, and the Father generates His Son not by will only, but by nature primarily, the will not being in contradiction to what belongs to God by nature. Thus, God generates the Logos by nature and by will. The Holy Trinity creates and is related to creatures with the exception of the Logos Who by nature unites Himself His own humanity. Therefore, the Logos (Jesus Christ, the Son of God), is uncreated and unchangeable, having always existed from the Father, Who by nature generates the Logos before the ages. Therefore, generation and procession are what distinguish the Son from the Holy Spirit. Since the Son is the only generation begotten Son of God, procession is different from generation. The Church Fathers at the Second Ecumenical Synod spoke in no uncertain terms leaving out the Filioque neither because of ignorance nor by omission, but by Divine inspiration. Procedural Reasons The Eastern Orthodox maintain that one part of the Church does not have the authority to change what is the property of the whole Church. Since Canon VII of the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in AD 431 is still in effect, a true Ecumenical Council can only change the Nicene Creed. Roman Catholics believe that the Council of Lyons in 1274 was ecumenical. Whether or not it was ecumenical depends on your view of the jurisdiction of the pope, so that goes back to the issue of the papacy. Protestants inherited use of the filioque clause from the Roman Catholic Church. After recent consultations with the Orthodox, the Episcopal Church in the USA agreed to drop the filioque clause from the Nicene Creed in their next version of the Book of Common Prayer. The Importance of the Nicene Creed Today The Church formulated the Nicene Creed before it selected certain apostolic writings, calling them the New Testament, and declared them to be Holy Scripture. Another way of looking at it is that God chose the people who were bound by the Nicene Creed to affirm the contents of the New Testament, thereby endorsing the theology of the Creed. The Nicene Creed is therefore a reliable test of our interpretation of the New Testament. If we are at variance with the Nicene Creed, we are in error. Therefore, whoever denies the theology of the Nicene Creed must also deny the theology of the New Testament, and whoever upholds the New Testament, as Holy Scripture must also affirm the theology of the Nicene Creed. In the beginning, the Church did not have a formal creed, nor did it have a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Then it formulated the Nicene Creed to express its doctrines and to serve as a test of orthodox teaching. Therefore, for a while, there was a Church with the Nicene Creed but, even though it used the books of the New Testament as Holy Scripture, it had no official statement saying that they were. After the Church accepted the Nicene Creed, it made a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Therefore, whoever attempts to reconstruct the ancient Church with an official list of New Testament books but without the Nicene Creed is reconstructing an imaginary church that never existed. This doesn’t mean their church is invalid, it just means that it isn’t a historic reconstruction, because in any part of Church history in which there was an official list of New Testament books, the Nicene Creed was the official expression of faith and the final test of orthodoxy. The Nicene Creed in Worship Traditional liturgical worship always includes the Nicene Creed whenever there is Communion. It is a corporate proclamation that corresponds to the Schema (“Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one”) in the synagogue liturgy.
Before 500 AD. Scripture taught that anyone that doesn't believe that God is coming the flesh as of the Antichrist. And who is God coming the flesh ? . Jesus also said he only does what he sees the father do. Jesus also said that the comforter would be sent. It also seems that we can see in Daniel and that we can see from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that Jesus was present. We can also see that God said which would equal the word of God I believe. We can also see that the spirit moved upon the face of the deep. And I think I could go on and on and on now I'm just a very very low level lay person so a lot of the stuff you have in there I really don't understand what you're talking about but to me it's pretty clear that God the Father God the son God the spirit are one in the same in different manifestations yet each manifestation being distinctly it's on being will be in the same being.
YHVH, The God of Israel, is 1 Lord. One individual. Messiah Jesus called Him, Father. And so do I. The man Jesus and I have the same God and Father. Amazing grace.
@John Grytbakk And that is why you will die in your sins and end up in Hell receiving justly His furious wrath. You are not under the Grace. You are under the condemnation.
@@luboshcamber1992 .....Jesus himself said that his God and Father is the only true God, (John 17:3) YHVH is His holy name. The God of Israel. YHVH is 1 Lord, (Deuteronomy 6:4) And Jesus confirmed the ancient Shema of Israel, (Mark 12:29) And the apostles all agreed with Jesus, "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:6) How am I under condemnation if I stand with the truth of Scripture? I only stand condemned by the tradition-bound religious crowd, just like Jesus was by the Pharisees.
@@bosse641 Jesus also said if you won't believe that I AM which is Yahweh, you will die in your sin. John 1,1-3 is another text. When Jesus talked the way you're pushing He talked about His humanity. I can go on and on but why? You pick and choose what you want according to what's in your heart. Hatred towards Truth is in your heart. You are terribly deceived person and you won't listen. Unconverted heart cannot listen. You hate Jesus and no matter the argument you will turn deaf ears on it. I am sure you were rebuked thousand times. But if there's any hope, check out Dr James White on Trinity he gives comprehensive Scriptural refutations to your falsehoods.
@@luboshcamber1992 ...Jesus did not say "I AM". ...that is a modern translation done by Trinitarians to try to prove their doctrine/theology. Look at the older translations, do you find "I AM" in connection to the man and Messiah Jesus? Jesus said that "I am the Messiah(the Christ/the anointed one". ...that is what he was pointing out to the Pharisees. Not that he is God. If he did, then he contradicts himself having said that his Father and God is the only true God. You end up in confusion. And confusion is not of God, but of the father of lies.
@@bosse641 Oh, so now you're a Greek scholar. 🤣🤣😂 He said I am buddy, you can dance around it all day long. John 8,58 can only be understood as it is written if you believe the truth of the Scriptures about the nature of God. Which you don't. Jews clearly understood his claims of divinity and they explicitly said it to Him and wanted to stone Him for that! How is that, that it didn't happen? But you blasphemer know better don't you? You know better than apostle Thomas BOWING DOWN to Jesus saying "My Lord and my God." Worshipping Him. Nooooo, yoi know better, Jesus Himself wanted to rebuke him "hey don't worship me man, I am just a man" but just was too busy at the moment. You are so blind that you don't see that if Jesus didn't do this, being just a mere man, receiving worship then he was a blasphemer, he commited one of the worst sins that there is! Read Isaiah 42,8 and go to John "Father glorify me with the glory that I had before the world was" good luck. 😉🤡🤡🥳
Interesting at the 28:00 mark or so when Haykin cites the greatest gifts of the early Church to include the doctrine of the Trinity and Augustine. The Trinity, articulated at the Council of Nicea in 325 was attended by 318 Catholic Bishops. St Augustine was Catholic Bishop of Hippo.in the late 4th and early 5th century. All of these Catholic Bishops presided over the Mass, believing that the Bread and Wine became the resurrected body and blood of Jesus Christ. One wonders... does Dr Haykin believe that they all error'd on this theological point? If so, just how did this occur, if the apostles preached the gospel to their descendants, and the descendants to their descendants? Why was there no debate on this error, which if true made them ALL Pagans, worshiping a piece of bread?
TruthHasSpoken lol I wonder if you know the History of the Church. The Catholic Church was name after the universal body of believers who were under the Christian Faith according to the Scripture, name that the Roman Church took for itself yet drifted far from the beliefs of True Christianity. Now the mention of the bread and wine been the body and blood of the Lord Jesus is also mentioned in the letters of Ignatius on the second century, yet he is not acknowledging or teaching the doctrine of substantiation as the Roman Catholic knows it now a day; but instead he’s stating the dead and resurrection of the Lord which was been attacked by gnosticism. So you have two things: 1) the catholic bishops that you mention were catholic in the sense of the original meaning of the word not as the Roman Catholic Church understands it now a days. 2) the mention of the body and wine been the bread and blood was to refute the gnostic believed of Christ been a mere spirit and not having an actual body; it was never to say that the bread turns into real flesh and so on. That is idolatry.
Roman Catholic my claims might sounds stupid to you because you can’t refute them, yet they are true. I grew up as a Roman Catholic been influenced from the generations that went before me. My mom served in that church and as a little boy growing up I to serve in the church. Yet by God’s grace I got saved and driven out from the whole Salvation by works and traditions that the Roman church teaches, which are not the true Gospel and either is the Christian Faith that the Bible teaches.
@TeachingTim And you believe he error'd greatly when he presided over the Mass, believing that the bread and wine that he consecrated turned into the resurrected body and blood of Christ ? He was worshiping a piece of bread and without knowing it was a pagan. This is what you believe?
The number 318 was taken from the number of men Abraham took with himself to battle the Chedorlaomer’s army in Genesis 14:14. Others testify out of 1800 bishops only around 300 attended; 16%.
A reminder as to why after years of study I journeyed home to Holy Mother Catholic Church ... Protestant division, presumption, deified individual conscience, arrogated authority, and predictable finger-pointing on display. sad
LOL this must have been difficult to gloss over & revise or just trample over so much of early christian history that doesn't agree with Reformed theology and to want to go straight to the "babies must be baptised or will be damned if they die in infancy" Augustine.
Tertullian invented Trinity only to reject it himself as idolatry. 1John 5:7-8 admitted insertion. Johanna Commanuem debate. Why would your cannon be closed to actual ancient scriptures discovered and yet you accept known addition and modifications by Catholic Church fathers? Odd Example : Martin Luther and Erasmus rejected 1 John 5:7-8Trinity in their first translation. Should not Protestant s reject this later re addition?
There are hundreds of variant versions of Christian Bibles none match each other or the original koine Greek NT Papyrus or the Hebrew Tanakh Bible or Dead sea scrolls or Septuagint. There are 35,000 different Christian sects today. Tenak Talk channel explains. Dr Bart Ehrman exposes.
@TeachingTim Compare the Isaiah copper scroll Dead sea scrolls to Hebrew Orthodox Tanakh.. 99% match. Also Church fathers admitted adding 1John 5:7-8 and Trinity into Scriptures. Explain. No Rabbi admitted to have modified Tanakh or Torah. There is only one Torah Tanakh in history world wide all match word for word.. Fact verify. Which of the hundreds of other Bibles you rely on?
@TeachingTim 1John5:7-8 ,mark 16:9-20,Easter,John 7:53,8:10.. Not punctuation or scribal errors but purposeful meaningful insertion s into the original Koine Greek New Testament. All Orthodox Judaism has one Hebrew Tanakh all match world wide word for word . There are two sects in Judaism " observant orthodox and reform secular". Not 33,000 . Verify. Shalom
Dear friend give me few minutes to explain my belief Islam and Jesus and Mary We muslims are in middle , between the Jews and Christians, when it comes to Jesus and Mary peace be upon them both. Jews speak ill of him and his mother and christians say he is GOD or the son of GOD or GOD him self or one in 3, we muslims with the grace of GOD say ,He was the messiah and the messenger of GOD just like the other messengers ,Abraham,Moses,Noah ..David and rest of them .They all came with the same message, even though the rules and regulations changed but basic message never changed ,Adam being the first prophet and the father of humanity (who was bowed down to by the Angels,(created by light) As respect for Adam not as worship ,all of the Angels compiled to this order of Allah except iblees ,who said you created me from fire (he was a jinn) and created him(Adam) from clay(the jinn race were created from smoke less fire and were on earth before us and are still present ,iblees was,not a fallen angle, jinns are a creation of free will like us .hidden from human eyes and are able to transform in to humans and animals and also able to fly ,Allah will judge them just like us and their destination either physical paradise or physical hell fire after physical resurrection, ) and Muhammad peace be upon him being the last prophet and messenger. all of them called to the worship of One GOD , peace be upon them all. ALLAH (jews and Christians in middle east have been calling GOD ,Allah(which is his original Name) for centuries ,even the present day bible in arabic says Allah as GOD' Allah has no likeness to his creation,his names and attributes are all perfect , He is above his creation,above his throne (The Throne is bigger than the universe and more) in a way which befits him , He is alone , like it is said in the bible ,listen oh Israel the Lord is our GOD The Lord is alone .In the Quran Allah says ,,Say He is Allah the ONE, Allah the eternal,He does not beget and He is not begotten and there is no one like him . Quran chapter 112 The Prophets and Messengers before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him,were send to a particular community of people ,Moses to his people,Noah to his people and Jesus to the children of Israel Jesus said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” but the last Prophet and Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and all the Prophets) Allah send him to all of the mankind until day of judgment Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all Quran chapter 7.158. Prophet Muhammad is also Prophesied in the bible Well then, who are you?" they asked. "Are you Elijah?" "No," he replied. "Are you the Prophet we are expecting?" "No." Join 1,21 According to this the Jews were waiting for a Prophet who is not John the Baptist peace be upon him and John the Baptist is also confirming that there is a another Prophet which is not The Messiah , so read Isaiah 29-12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” This Prophecy is for no other than Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. It has been narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari 3-The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet added, "Then the angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.'" ... Quran is the only word of GOD preserved in its original form, it has dozens of miracles ,including scientific and historical ,like the big bang , expansion of the universe, every living thing is created from water ,embryology in details ,black holes ,mountains as pegs ,different types of clouds ,water circle, Queen bee ,genders in plants ,Iron not from earth rather send down, ants speaking to each other , the preservation of the body of pharaoh as sign from Allah for the oppressors and much much more ,just type Islam and science and the above mentioned things in internet ,u tube and be surprised .May Allah guide the christians they can't prove the authenticity of the 4 gospels ,which were written 70-90 years after jesus ,mark and Luke never met Jesus , the title according to mathew was added in the second century and the gospel of John was written the last after 70 years of Jesus ,yet John suppose to be the beloved. Don't forget in the council of Nicaea 325 years after Jesus ,the emperor and bishops rejected all those Gospels which mentioned That Jesus was the Messenger and the Messiah NOT the Son of GOD. Even authors of the revised standard version bible comprising of 50 scholars has declared that the word BEGOTTEN and trinity in John as FABRICATION and not part of the bible. Islam does not allow any intermediates between Allah and his creation. One is ordered to worship ALLAH directly seeking His help and forgiveness, All sins will be forgiven by Allah (GOD )with the exception of The sin association partners with Allah ,e.g. saying Jesus is GOD Or son of GOD ,in this case eternity in hell fire (I pray all those who read this,that Allah opens their hearts to Islam As for Mary she is considers the woman of all times so much so that there is a whole chapter in the Quran in her name called soora muryam GOD say in soora Aal-e-Imran َا3,42 And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds, O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]." (And mention] when the angels said, Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].in 3:46ّ He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.in 3,47 She said, "My Lord, (Allah ,GOD)how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.َّ And in Quran ,chapter 3-59 GOD says Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. Jesus Not crucified And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.4,157 Jesus will declare his innocence in front of Allah (GOD) on the day of judgment Al-Ma'idah 5:116 And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Al-Ma'idah 5:117ٌ I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. Al-Ma'idah 5:118 ,we muslims also believe in the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him Jesus will return to kill the false messiah (dajal) and rule on earth as a just ruler and command the human beings to worship ALLAH alone ,just like what He did when He was on earth for the first time I pray all of you out there ,who seek nearness to Allah (GOD), that He guides you to Islam and showers his mercy on you, As Allah said to prophet Moses ,my mercy encompasses every thing (Quran chapter,7)Ameen pease
@@HearGodsWord by whose standard? By what authority do you make that assertion? Oh, the Bible ... the Bible Osteen and you each believe to be explicit and not in need of a teaching authority. Got it ...
There’s some wonderfully great minds on this panel!
LOVE seein RC & his silliness.
RC is rocking that ball cap
Love
Thyotokos was the grave sin. “You have left your first love.” Artemis of Ephesus. So much perseverance, yet a sin that they needed to repent of, or lose their lampstand! It led to the worship of Mary. Reactionary theology because of Nestorian christology.
At 1:52, I must say that I disagree with Dr. Haykin, what he doesn't understand about the nature of God the Holy Spirit and about the Word, the Son of God, and about the distinction made by the Apostle John regarding "proceed" and "sent" is important. I disagree for the following reasons:
In AD 589, a church council in Toledo, Spain, modified the Nicene Creed so that the Holy Spirit would proceed from the Father and the Son. (In Latin, and the Son is filioque, so this is known as the filioque clause.) There may not have been any particular motive for this change, because it looks like something a scribe would do to mend the text. The possible intention to the change was to strengthen the defense of the Trinity. The filioque clause spread through the western part of the church. In 796, Paulinus of Aquileia defended the filioque clause at the Synod of Friuli, which indicates that it was opposed, and after about
800, it crept into the liturgy in the Frankish Empire. Some Frankish monks used the filioque clause in their monastery in Jerusalem in 807, but eastern monks disputed it as improper. Because the Frankish monks were from the west, the matter was escalated to the bishop of Rome (Pope Leo III). He approved of the sentiment, but he opposed the change in the wording. Leo arranged for the creed in its original form (without the filioque clause) to be engraved on silver tablets and he had them
placed at St. Peter’s tomb. After the split between Rome and Constantinople in 1054, the filioque clause became part of the Nicene Creed in the Roman Catholic Church. This happened at the Council of Lyons, in France, in 1274.
In 1439, at the Roman Catholic Council of Florence, the Roman Catholic Church invited the Eastern Orthodox Churches and attempted a reunion. There were many issues, some of which seem trivial today, but the most important ones were the papacy and the filioque clause in the Creed, which is our subject here.
The Orthodox delegates to the council agreed to everything the Roman Catholics wanted, but they were under pressure. At the time, Islam was spreading by warfare, and Orthodox lands were under attack. All attempts to make peace had failed. The Orthodox wanted military aid from the west, and the pope agreed to help them, but only if they signed the agreement. Therefore, they all did, except for Markos Eugenikos, the titular bishop of Ephesus. He did not sign the agreement because he
thought it was a sell-out. The pope announced that without Markos’ signature the deal was off. When the Orthodox delegation returned home, only Markos was hailed as a hero, because he was the only one who did not compromise his integrity-the others regretted their actions. In the west, Markos is viewed as the man who prevented the unity of the church. In the east, he is St. Mark of Ephesus, “the conscience of Orthodoxy.”
Eastern Orthodox and orthodox Christians do not accept the filioque clause for scriptural, theological, and procedural reasons:
Scriptural Reasons
The Orthodox argue from Scripture that the Father sends the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name (John 14:26). Jesus declares that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father (John 15:26). There is a difference in the biblical words used for “send” and “proceed.” The Greek word “send” in the Gospel of John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:7 means “to bid a thing to be carried to one or to send a thing into another.” The only other word Jesus used for “send” in Luke 24:49 is “apostello” which means “to order
one to go to a place appointed.” The Greek word used in John 15:26 “proceeds” means ” to go forth from, go out of, depart out of, to issue from, to flow forth, to proceed from.” The filioque “and the Son” adds to the revelation of Holy Scripture. To say that Scriptural references to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ validate the filioque clause does not render the correct interpretation and understanding.
Theological Reasons
Everyone at the Second Ecumenical Synod knew well that this question was settled once and for all by the use in the Nicene Creed of the word “procession” as meaning the manner of existence of the Holy Spirit from the Father which constitutes His special individuality. Thus, the Father is unbegotten, i.e., derives His existence from no one. The Son is from the Father by generation. The Holy Spirit is from the Father, not by generation, but by procession (John 15:26). The Father is cause, the Son
and the Holy Spirit are caused. The difference between the ones caused is the one is caused by generation, and the other by procession, and not by generation. The Holy Spirit is an individual “hypostasis” with individual characteristics or properties not shared by other “hypostases,” but He does share fully everything the Father and Son have in common, to wit, the Divine essence and all uncreated energies and powers. The Holy Spirit is an individuality Who is not what is common between the Father and the Son, but has in common everything the Father and the Son have in common.
This, in relation to Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos), the Son of God, is united to His humanity by nature or hypostatically, and the Father generates His Son not by will only, but by nature primarily, the will not being in contradiction to what belongs to God by nature. Thus, God generates the Logos by nature and by will. The Holy Trinity creates and is related to creatures with the exception of the Logos Who by nature unites Himself His own humanity. Therefore, the Logos (Jesus Christ, the Son of God), is uncreated and unchangeable, having always existed from the Father, Who by nature generates the Logos before the ages.
Therefore, generation and procession are what distinguish the Son from the Holy Spirit. Since the Son is the only generation begotten Son of God, procession is different from generation.
The Church Fathers at the Second Ecumenical Synod spoke in no uncertain terms leaving out the Filioque neither because of ignorance nor by omission, but by Divine inspiration.
Procedural Reasons
The Eastern Orthodox maintain that one part of the Church does not have the authority to change what is the property of the whole Church. Since Canon VII of the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in AD 431 is still in effect, a true Ecumenical Council can only change the Nicene Creed. Roman Catholics believe that the Council of Lyons in 1274 was ecumenical. Whether or not it was ecumenical depends on your view of the jurisdiction of the pope, so that goes back to the issue of the papacy.
Protestants inherited use of the filioque clause from the Roman Catholic Church. After recent consultations with the Orthodox, the Episcopal Church in the USA agreed to drop the filioque clause from the Nicene Creed in their next version of the Book of Common Prayer.
The Importance of the Nicene Creed Today
The Church formulated the Nicene Creed before it selected certain apostolic writings, calling them the New Testament, and declared them to be Holy Scripture. Another way of looking at it is that God chose the people who were bound by the Nicene Creed to affirm the contents of the New Testament, thereby endorsing the theology of the Creed. The Nicene Creed is therefore a reliable test of our interpretation of the New Testament. If we are at variance with the Nicene Creed, we are in error.
Therefore, whoever denies the theology of the Nicene Creed must also deny the theology of the New Testament, and whoever upholds the New Testament, as Holy Scripture must also affirm the theology of the Nicene Creed.
In the beginning, the Church did not have a formal creed, nor did it have a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Then it formulated the Nicene Creed to express its doctrines and to serve as a test of orthodox teaching. Therefore, for a while, there was a Church with the Nicene Creed but, even though it used the books of the New Testament as Holy Scripture, it had no official statement saying that they were. After the Church accepted the Nicene Creed, it made a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Therefore, whoever attempts to reconstruct the ancient Church with an official list of New Testament books but without the Nicene Creed is reconstructing an imaginary church that never existed. This doesn’t mean their church is invalid, it just means that it isn’t a historic reconstruction, because in any part of Church history in which there was an official list of New Testament books, the Nicene Creed was the official expression of faith and the final test of orthodoxy.
The Nicene Creed in Worship
Traditional liturgical worship always includes the Nicene Creed whenever there is Communion. It is a corporate proclamation that corresponds to the Schema (“Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one”) in the synagogue liturgy.
Before 500 AD. Scripture taught that anyone that doesn't believe that God is coming the flesh as of the Antichrist. And who is God coming the flesh ? . Jesus also said he only does what he sees the father do. Jesus also said that the comforter would be sent. It also seems that we can see in Daniel and that we can see from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that Jesus was present. We can also see that God said which would equal the word of God I believe. We can also see that the spirit moved upon the face of the deep. And I think I could go on and on and on now I'm just a very very low level lay person so a lot of the stuff you have in there I really don't understand what you're talking about but to me it's pretty clear that God the Father God the son God the spirit are one in the same in different manifestations yet each manifestation being distinctly it's on being will be in the same being.
I apologize not God coming in the flesh but has come in the flesh
And is the antichrist
YHVH, The God of Israel, is 1 Lord. One individual. Messiah Jesus called Him, Father. And so do I. The man Jesus and I have the same God and Father. Amazing grace.
@John Grytbakk
And that is why you will die in your sins and end up in Hell receiving justly His furious wrath. You are not under the Grace. You are under the condemnation.
@@luboshcamber1992 .....Jesus himself said that his God and Father is the only true God, (John 17:3) YHVH is His holy name. The God of Israel. YHVH is 1 Lord, (Deuteronomy 6:4) And Jesus confirmed the ancient Shema of Israel, (Mark 12:29) And the apostles all agreed with Jesus, "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:6) How am I under condemnation if I stand with the truth of Scripture? I only stand condemned by the tradition-bound religious crowd, just like Jesus was by the Pharisees.
@@bosse641
Jesus also said if you won't believe that I AM which is Yahweh, you will die in your sin. John 1,1-3 is another text. When Jesus talked the way you're pushing He talked about His humanity. I can go on and on but why? You pick and choose what you want according to what's in your heart. Hatred towards Truth is in your heart. You are terribly deceived person and you won't listen. Unconverted heart cannot listen. You hate Jesus and no matter the argument you will turn deaf ears on it. I am sure you were rebuked thousand times. But if there's any hope, check out Dr James White on Trinity he gives comprehensive Scriptural refutations to your falsehoods.
@@luboshcamber1992 ...Jesus did not say "I AM". ...that is a modern translation done by Trinitarians to try to prove their doctrine/theology. Look at the older translations, do you find "I AM" in connection to the man and Messiah Jesus? Jesus said that "I am the Messiah(the Christ/the anointed one". ...that is what he was pointing out to the Pharisees. Not that he is God. If he did, then he contradicts himself having said that his Father and God is the only true God. You end up in confusion. And confusion is not of God, but of the father of lies.
@@bosse641
Oh, so now you're a Greek scholar. 🤣🤣😂 He said I am buddy, you can dance around it all day long. John 8,58 can only be understood as it is written if you believe the truth of the Scriptures about the nature of God. Which you don't. Jews clearly understood his claims of divinity and they explicitly said it to Him and wanted to stone Him for that! How is that, that it didn't happen? But you blasphemer know better don't you? You know better than apostle Thomas BOWING DOWN to Jesus saying "My Lord and my God." Worshipping Him. Nooooo, yoi know better, Jesus Himself wanted to rebuke him "hey don't worship me man, I am just a man" but just was too busy at the moment. You are so blind that you don't see that if Jesus didn't do this, being just a mere man, receiving worship then he was a blasphemer, he commited one of the worst sins that there is! Read Isaiah 42,8 and go to John "Father glorify me with the glory that I had before the world was" good luck. 😉🤡🤡🥳
R.C around 24:00 😂😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Interesting at the 28:00 mark or so when Haykin cites the greatest gifts of the early Church to include the doctrine of the Trinity and Augustine.
The Trinity, articulated at the Council of Nicea in 325 was attended by 318 Catholic Bishops.
St Augustine was Catholic Bishop of Hippo.in the late 4th and early 5th century.
All of these Catholic Bishops presided over the Mass, believing that the Bread and Wine became the resurrected body and blood of Jesus Christ.
One wonders... does Dr Haykin believe that they all error'd on this theological point?
If so, just how did this occur, if the apostles preached the gospel to their descendants, and the descendants to their descendants?
Why was there no debate on this error, which if true made them ALL Pagans, worshiping a piece of bread?
TruthHasSpoken lol I wonder if you know the History of the Church. The Catholic Church was name after the universal body of believers who were under the Christian Faith according to the Scripture, name that the Roman Church took for itself yet drifted far from the beliefs of True Christianity. Now the mention of the bread and wine been the body and blood of the Lord Jesus is also mentioned in the letters of Ignatius on the second century, yet he is not acknowledging or teaching the doctrine of substantiation as the Roman Catholic knows it now a day; but instead he’s stating the dead and resurrection of the Lord which was been attacked by gnosticism. So you have two things:
1) the catholic bishops that you mention were catholic in the sense of the original meaning of the word not as the Roman Catholic Church understands it now a days.
2) the mention of the body and wine been the bread and blood was to refute the gnostic believed of Christ been a mere spirit and not having an actual body; it was never to say that the bread turns into real flesh and so on. That is idolatry.
@@angelsilva1612 You only make these stupid claims because you haven't studied patristics.
Roman Catholic my claims might sounds stupid to you because you can’t refute them, yet they are true. I grew up as a Roman Catholic been influenced from the generations that went before me. My mom served in that church and as a little boy growing up I to serve in the church. Yet by God’s grace I got saved and driven out from the whole Salvation by works and traditions that the Roman church teaches, which are not the true Gospel and either is the Christian Faith that the Bible teaches.
@TeachingTim And you believe he error'd greatly when he presided over the Mass, believing that the bread and wine that he consecrated turned into the resurrected body and blood of Christ ? He was worshiping a piece of bread and without knowing it was a pagan. This is what you believe?
The number 318 was taken from the number of men Abraham took with himself to battle the Chedorlaomer’s army in Genesis 14:14. Others testify out of 1800 bishops only around 300 attended; 16%.
A reminder as to why after years of study I journeyed home to Holy Mother Catholic Church ... Protestant division, presumption, deified individual conscience, arrogated authority, and predictable finger-pointing on display. sad
LOL this must have been difficult to gloss over & revise or just trample over so much of early christian history that doesn't agree with Reformed theology and to want to go straight to the "babies must be baptised or will be damned if they die in infancy" Augustine.
The conversation is beyond weird in defense of so-called reformed theology
Tertullian invented Trinity only to reject it himself as idolatry. 1John 5:7-8 admitted insertion. Johanna Commanuem debate.
Why would your cannon be closed to actual ancient scriptures discovered and yet you accept known addition and modifications by Catholic Church fathers? Odd
Example : Martin Luther and Erasmus rejected 1 John 5:7-8Trinity in their first translation.
Should not Protestant s reject this later re addition?
Tertullian rejected the Trinity?
There are hundreds of variant versions of Christian Bibles none match each other or the original koine Greek NT Papyrus or the Hebrew Tanakh Bible or Dead sea scrolls or Septuagint.
There are 35,000 different Christian sects today.
Tenak Talk channel explains.
Dr Bart Ehrman exposes.
motor head1 Which variant changes the message of the Gospel?
@TeachingTim Compare the Isaiah copper scroll Dead sea scrolls to Hebrew Orthodox Tanakh..
99% match.
Also Church fathers admitted adding 1John 5:7-8 and Trinity into Scriptures.
Explain.
No Rabbi admitted to have modified Tanakh or Torah.
There is only one Torah Tanakh in history world wide all match word for word..
Fact verify.
Which of the hundreds of other Bibles you rely on?
@TeachingTim 1John5:7-8 ,mark 16:9-20,Easter,John 7:53,8:10..
Not punctuation or scribal errors but purposeful meaningful insertion s into the original Koine Greek New Testament.
All Orthodox Judaism has one Hebrew Tanakh all match world wide word for word .
There are two sects in Judaism " observant orthodox and reform secular".
Not 33,000 .
Verify.
Shalom
Dear friend give me few minutes to explain my belief
Islam and Jesus and Mary
We muslims are in middle , between the Jews and Christians, when it comes to Jesus and Mary peace be upon them both. Jews speak ill of him and his mother and christians say he is GOD or the son of GOD or GOD him self or one in 3, we muslims with the grace of GOD say ,He was the messiah and the messenger of GOD just like the other messengers ,Abraham,Moses,Noah ..David and rest of them .They all came with the same message, even though the rules and regulations changed but basic message never changed ,Adam being the first prophet and the father of humanity (who was bowed down to by the Angels,(created by light) As respect for Adam not as worship ,all of the Angels compiled to this order of Allah except iblees ,who said you created me from fire (he was a jinn) and created him(Adam) from clay(the jinn race were created from smoke less fire and were on earth before us and are still present ,iblees was,not a fallen angle, jinns are a creation of free will like us .hidden from human eyes and are able to transform in to humans and animals and also able to fly ,Allah will judge them just like us and their destination either physical paradise or physical hell fire after physical resurrection, ) and Muhammad peace be upon him being the last prophet and messenger. all of them called to the worship of One GOD , peace be upon them all.
ALLAH (jews and Christians in middle east have been calling GOD ,Allah(which is his original Name) for centuries ,even the present day bible in arabic says Allah as GOD'
Allah has no likeness to his creation,his names and attributes are all perfect , He is above his creation,above his throne (The Throne is bigger than the universe and more) in a way which befits him , He is alone ,
like it is said in the bible ,listen oh Israel the Lord is our GOD The Lord is alone .In the Quran Allah says
,,Say He is Allah the ONE, Allah the eternal,He does not beget and He is not begotten and there is no one like him . Quran chapter 112
The Prophets and Messengers before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him,were send to a particular community of people ,Moses to his people,Noah to his people and Jesus to the children of Israel
Jesus said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
but the last Prophet and Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and all the Prophets)
Allah send him to all of the mankind until day of judgment
Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all Quran chapter 7.158. Prophet Muhammad is also Prophesied in the bible
Well then, who are you?" they asked. "Are you Elijah?" "No," he replied. "Are you the Prophet we are expecting?" "No." Join 1,21
According to this the Jews were waiting for a Prophet who is not John the Baptist peace be upon him and John the Baptist is also confirming that there is a another Prophet which is not The Messiah , so read Isaiah 29-12
And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”
This Prophecy is for no other than Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. It has been narrated in
Sahih al-Bukhari 3-The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet added, "Then the angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.'" ...
Quran is the only word of GOD preserved in its original form, it has dozens of miracles ,including scientific and historical ,like the big bang , expansion of the universe, every living thing is created from water ,embryology in details ,black holes ,mountains as pegs ,different types of clouds ,water circle, Queen bee ,genders in plants ,Iron not from earth rather send down, ants speaking to each other , the preservation of the body of pharaoh as sign from Allah for the oppressors and much much more ,just type Islam and science and the above mentioned things in internet ,u tube and be surprised .May Allah guide the christians they can't prove the authenticity of the 4 gospels ,which were written 70-90 years after jesus ,mark and Luke never met Jesus , the title according to mathew was added in the second century and the gospel of John was written the last after 70 years of Jesus ,yet John suppose to be the beloved.
Don't forget in the council of Nicaea 325 years after Jesus ,the emperor and bishops rejected all those Gospels which mentioned That Jesus was the Messenger and the Messiah NOT the Son of GOD. Even authors of the revised standard version bible comprising of 50 scholars has declared that the word BEGOTTEN and trinity in John as
FABRICATION and not part of the bible.
Islam does not allow any intermediates between Allah and his creation. One is ordered to worship ALLAH directly seeking His help and forgiveness, All sins will be forgiven by Allah (GOD )with the exception of The sin association partners with Allah ,e.g. saying Jesus is GOD Or son of GOD ,in this case eternity in hell fire (I pray all those who read this,that Allah opens their hearts to Islam
As for Mary she is considers the woman of all times so much so that there is a whole chapter in the Quran in her name called soora muryam
GOD say in soora Aal-e-Imran َا3,42
And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds,
O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."
(And mention] when the angels said, Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].in 3:46ّ
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.in 3,47
She said, "My Lord, (Allah ,GOD)how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.َّ
And in Quran ,chapter 3-59 GOD says
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
Jesus Not crucified
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.4,157
Jesus will declare his innocence in front of Allah (GOD) on the day of judgment Al-Ma'idah 5:116
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Al-Ma'idah 5:117ٌ
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. Al-Ma'idah 5:118
,we muslims also believe in the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him
Jesus will return to kill the false messiah (dajal) and rule on earth as a just ruler and command the human beings to worship ALLAH alone ,just like what He did when He was on earth for the first time
I pray all of you out there ,who seek nearness to Allah (GOD), that He guides you to Islam and showers his mercy on you,
As Allah said to prophet Moses ,my mercy encompasses every thing (Quran chapter,7)Ameen pease
three heretics... sorry... I meant stooges.
Roman Catholic
We shall talk Christ.
You can keep Pachamama
Blessings
Having just learned the scripture that Catholics use to justify the idea of purgatory, I don’t know if you can call anyone else a heretic.
@@BillWalkerWarren That’s no argument ... let’s talk Joel Osteen or countless hand-waiving Protestant rock shows referred to as “worship,” shall we?
@@3leon306 Joel Osteem isn't Christian, as these men would confirm. If you think he's the same as them then you have a lot to learn.
@@HearGodsWord by whose standard? By what authority do you make that assertion? Oh, the Bible ... the Bible Osteen and you each believe to be explicit and not in need of a teaching authority. Got it ...