This was actually worth the full hour and a half. When I saw the length of the video I rolled my eyes, but then as I listened to it I was amazed at the detail of the analysis and the clarity of the thinking that went into it. Excellent work.
@@rapidrhinos2254 The caverns of Aglarond were located at Helm's Deep. They are depicted in the movies as the place where the women and children are sheltering during the battle. The wall was to protect the entrances to the caverns, (since there were several entrances spread over a fairly wide area) which were important to the people of Rohan as storehouses even when they weren't being used as a shelter for refugees. The much higher keep was to protect the wall and make it harder for an enemy to take and occupy it for any length of time. Due to the fact that the movie had a lot less time for in-depth explanations than the books did, details like that were left unexplained.
Shad is technically right but misses quite a few important story points. The Helm's Deep defenders didn't have any anti-siege weapons (and lacked any decent weapons in general) because Rohan had actively been stopped from preparing for any kind of war by Wormtongue. Aragorn even tells a boy he has a "good sword" when it's plainly a crap sword. The Fellowship didn't want to fight at Helms Deep at all (which had long been abandoned), and only did so because Theoden insisted. So Helm's Deep was totally lacking in anti-siege weapons, push-poles etc., and was generally in a state of disrepair. The defenders had spears because they're armed as riders, not siege defenders, and were at peace until a few days ago. The Uruks were armed with heaps of pikes because Saruman was expecting to fight cavalry (which is how Aragorn wanted to fight, to stay mobile and draw the enemy away from the civilians). The ladders were too high for the (long) wall because Saruman was planning to lay siege to Edoras, not Helm's Deep. Admittedly the huge ladders don't make a lot of sense but presumably Helm's Deep was Saruman's Plan B. Regardless, Edoras would have fallen quickly, so Saruman probably didn't think the Uruks needed a lot of shields to protect against arrows in a prolonged siege. The defenders also might have hesitated to start shooting for two reasons: 1. Aragorn was buying time and didn't know if the Uruks would attack immediately or settle in for a siege (which he was presumably hoping the Uruks would do), and 2. The defenders (including the Elves) only had what arrows they carried to Helm's Deep, and didn't have thousands in reserve, so every shot needed to count. Shad isn't wrong exactly but a lot of the "flaws" he points out are explained by the circumstances of the story.
The one point I must question was the one about saruman planning to lay some to Edoras. Maybe I'm misremembering but I recall saruman saying in his narration/monologue (maybe to Grima wormtongue) that Theoden would flee to helms deep as that is where he would feel safest, or something like that. His original plan was for Theoden to remain in his sedated condition but after Grima returned I think he fully expected them to flee to helms deep.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Sure the battle of helms deep isn't perfect from a battle tactics perspective but what both sides do makes sense given the information we have.
The biggest thing he misses is that the ladders and even the battering ram were nothing more than the cover to get the bombs under the wall. First you hit them with ladders so they don't notice the ram, then you hit them with the ram so they don't notice the sappers and then boom, you have the outer wall and then just need the gate down to win.
That was Grima monologuing to Saruman. He was basically briefing him on everything Theoden was thinking & going to do most likely now that he was out from under the spell. Also, Theoden was at least partially justified in his logic for going to Helms Deep, as he knew with orcs & wildman rampaging across the land, many of his people would have fled their undefendable villages to the only real fortified location, especially absent any sign of the Rohirrim. As shown by the children's mother already being there, and supplies alreasy being stockpiled. Sarumon might very well have planned to march on Edoras with the expectation of fighting what force Theoden could rally in the field, defeat it, sack the city, then have the Uruks pillage the coutryside to A:draw out Eomers forces to again battle & defeat, possibly piecemeal, & B: drive more to Helms Deep, including the remainders of whatever forces he defeated. This would have left Helms Deep swamped with dispirited, wounded & leaderless people that had been harried all the way there. Theoden immediately falling back to the Deep just meant Sarumon was able to skip a couple of steps in the plan and save some time. As far as either he or Grima(or Theoden) knew, the bulk of the Rohirrim under Eomer were well too far away to be called back in time even if a rider could find them. But they would return once word of Theodens revival or the Uruk march reached them. So sack Helms Deep quickly( which Sarumon believes they can do) then HE has the fortification the Rohirrim have to tackle, for which they are completely unsuited for. He ironically didnt count on the workings of a wizard, & that Grimas political machinations to drive Eomer from Theoden would fall apart so quickly.
It's a good thing Peter Jackson was able to learn from the mistakes of Rings of Power to make sure his own siege-battle scene was much better constructed. No... wait a minute...
@@niamsidriI believe it's a sarcastic comment about Rings of Power failing to learn from Peter Jackson's Helm's Deep, that is to say Rings of Power turned out worse despite having a good example to learn from.
Maybe the orcs leaned from their mistakes in-universe, so by the end of 3rd age, they finally had figured out someone should actually climb those siege ladders, lol.
The "Aragorn on the ladder" scene is one that me and my friends debated 20 years ago. This is the answer we came up with: The Uruk-hai brought the ladder inside because there are internal walls against the Hornburg Keep so they were going to use it later. However the Uruk-hai were forced to place the ladder down prematurely because of how many unexpected defenders there were inside the Deeping Wall. They chucked it up against the wall on the inside to free their hands to fight in a random place. There is a gap between the back of the Deeping Wall and the staircase to the Hornburg Keep. Since most of the attacking Uruk-hai would be funneling in a thick line from the breach toward the internal staircase Aragorn looked down, saw the thickest number of enemies were directly at the bottom of the stairs, but there would be far fewer Uruk-hai 20-30ft out from the stairs, which is where he would land by riding the ladder down. Is it what I would do? No. I would have gathered any allies nearby and made a fighting retreat to the closest staircase on foot. We sometimes forget that the Jackson films (although they had have some over-the-top moments) that Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas etc are literally superhumans. Gimli is as strong as 3 strong men, shrugs off injuries that would be mortal on a normal person, and has literally infinite stamina. Dwarves do not get tired from normal exertion. Aragorn has a combination of Numenorian strength and speed which is peak-human, combined with 80+ years of Elven and Dunedain warrior training. Just to name some Tolkien canon points about those guys.
During my watches I always just assumed it was a helms deep ladder. Big fortress like that would have some and It and others would help if an escape back down or a quick reinforcements up to a particular spot on the wall was needed.
I had similar theories for all three of these points. At the end of the day we don't know what's 'true' but Shad probably could have come up with a more valid idea considering that ladders for defenders inside of castle walls wasn't an uncommon thing even if there is stair access.
I think that Uruk-Hai's were armed with pikes is because at the beginning Saruman thought that Rohirrims are going to fight his orc army in open field using cavalry charges. But Theoden decide to hide his people in Helm's Deep and Saruman was like "Well... we made so many pikes. We invested many resources and time to make them and can't throw them away. So let's Uruks take them anyway"
I had the same thought, At this point in the books the remains of Erkanbrand's Army was still around and Gandalf was looking for them. In the Movies it was Eomer's forces. And so carrying their pike would of been smart if for no other reason than to be prepared for an attack.
Legolas's players at the table, "Guys, this is gonna be so sick. Ok DM, is there a shield anywhere near the stairs?" Gimli's player, "God damn it Orlando, you always risk the battles just to do stupid shit like this" "No no, it'll be fine. I just wanna shield surf down the stairs while I made bow attacks" DM: "That sounds rad as shit, I'll allow it."
@@ChaoticYak1 lol. Ashamed to say that I only remembered that Orlando Bloom played Legolas because it was mentioned in the comment (And I vaguely recognized his name in general. Not that I could tell you any of his other roles). To say nothing of most of the other characters and actors. I've always been bad about that kind of thing.
"First Agility Check, passed. Second Agility Check...failed. Sorry, man. Legolas shoots three orks while skateboarding down like a badass, then falls on his ass at the foot of the stairs."
My take on the initial rush to the wall is that it's a cover. The ladder assault isn't intended to actually take the walls, it's there to get the defenders focused on the mass of attackers and then on the ladders, so they ignore any strange noises and activity happening around the grate until it's too late. Because of that they don't care about doing it properly or setting up proper formations for it.
Also, lack of murder holes makes the foot of the wall a very safe place to be! Just look to saving private ray, the mantra is get if the beach as you’re safer under the guns than in front of them
Also, by breaking formation and rushing, you are forcing the enemy to use up their arrows (that are limited). In a normal army, that would never happen, men are not as mindless and the leaders tend not to waste them as such. But they are orcs. Being brought to a frenzy and rushing to be turned into a pin cushions is not that big of a deal for them. So when defenders have used up their arrow supply, they can rush in with siege equipment and storm the walls. And that is the main flaw from Shad's perspective. He judges orc army as he would a classic medieval army - which is wrong. They don't really care about casualties, they are not really fighting a classic battle. If they had no siege equipment, that's an army that would rush the wall only so they could make a ramp of their own dead to climb on top of the walls. They are almost like a swarm. So you can't judge what they do based on what humans did in medieval battles. He also makes a few comments about the Helm's Deep fortress and its design flaws. The thing is, that fortress is very old. Thousands of years old by the time of that battle. Certain medieval standards of castle building were not yet implemented at the time. It would be like looking at a fortification from 2000BC and judging it by 1200AD castle standards. That's just stupid. Old fortifications were VERY basic, so it makes sense that Hornburg (fort in Helm's Deep) is also lacking quite a few of those "modern" practices and design. In general, Shad looked at this battle like two human armies clashing in the medieval times. So he made more mistakes in his judgement and analysis than the film actually did depicting them.
@@Wustenfuchs109 couldn’t agree more! Today’s equivalent would be russias “tactic” of hitting Ukrainian positions with meat as “identify russian artillery and infantry” positions. It forces Ukraine to use very limited and precious artillery shells and relocating which put the artillery out of the battlefield for a time until they are ready to fire again. So we have literal Uruk-hai tactics in 2024! Totally “justifies” the tactic of meat shields in the battle in helms deep
I say it's because there is variation in the quality of ork troops; the outfit tasked with the main gate has purpose-appropriate shields and battering rams and diligent formations --they're the specialists. The guys on the ground are from a lesser outfit, the unskilled dregs that overwhelm with crude but effective massed tactics (another reason the sophisticated bomb was inappropriate for this phase of the fight)
I think the buildup before the battle also deserves some cred. Like, that shot of a guy putting a helmet on a kid, really sells how desperate the situation was.
The last charge was symbolic and you can find real history examples. It's a final act of an army that knows they're done, but it's to send a message to the enemy that they will not accept defeat, and it's a powerful message and moral boost to allies. The Alamo actually is a more recent example. I'm not saying it's the best strategic choice, but you have to remember, not every tactic is decided by numbers, you have to account for the human equation. And to me, that's really inspiring.
I heard the question before, "Why did the uruks bring pikes to a siege? What are they going to to with that? poke the wall?" But that question doesn't take into account that they produced those pike in preparation against a force that is known for its cavalry. The production of those pikes started before the humans fled to the keep.
@@sprinkle61 those pikes are rised for two reasons: Practical: it is easier to cary them rised up in such a large group. If they are alongside the troops it would be impossible to manouver. They also used the pikes to push the ladders against the wall, at 2043; Cinematic: large army bearing arms looks much better and more menacing than large army without arms visible.
One thing I think is important to remember about Theoden at this point is that he has recently been freed from possession from Saruman, had to bury his son, and his country has been under constant pillaging by raiders and uruks. The story has already made a point that going to Helm's Deep is not the best choice, especially since they don't really have the manpower to hold off a siege. I think him getting involved at the gate like he does makes sense considering he probably isn't in the best headspace at this point in time.
Not just mentally but physically, he'd been in a magical coma for who knows how long. It's like an athlete recovering from a major injury and finally being healthy, getting the chance to get real action again for the first time. He wanted to swing that sword arm again, take the heads off some orcs and inspire his men at the same time. Hard to blame him.
I actually think sending the king to the gate is a strong point of tactical leadership. That gate is the single most important vulnerability, and therefore the most important part of the defense - but is that what is drawing the most defensive power at this point of the battle? No. Everyone is focused on that long wall, the ladders, the explosion. Indeed, this is probably why they attacked the wall first, and not the keep. They're distracting/eliminating the defenders on the long wall, and thereby preventing the kind of defensive crossfire that could prevent a successful assault on the keep's gate. It's vital that they defend the gate above all else. Yet the enemy's strategy has been to first remove all ancillary defenses of that gate, and to distract the defenders from this crucial point of attack. The king personally going to defend the gate, despite them already having sufficient force to defend it, signals to those at the gate how important it is that they hold this point. It's literally important enough to risk the king's personal safety to defend it. Indeed, word will spread among the commanders that the King has shifted to the gate, which will refocus the entire defensive effort back to that point of vulnerability. "The king is at the gate." "We must defend him!" ... and by extension they will defend the gate, which they might otherwise be too distracted to do. Now consider that Theoden chose to make this point early in the assault of the gate, when his personal safety was least in jeopardy, but late enough in the battle that he could see the enemy's distracting tactics were working. He made his point, but did so without really risking his life. He's not addled. He's taking this opportunity to be a strong leader, which is something he couldn't do when under Saruman's spell.
Yeah, it's pretty clear he's ready to go out in a blaze of glory in a sense. They've breached the walls, and they're beating down the door to the inner fortress. As you said, he's already going through so much at this time, if he's convinced he's going to die, he'd rather do it on his horse swinging his sword than hiding in a cave. It wouldn't be in his character.
One of the big takeaways I’m getting from this is, with battles like Helm’s deep, it takes some hard scrutiny, often from an expert, to pick out the flaws. With Rings of Power, a complete layman can see the idiotic flaws.
When I was like 8, I was bothered by the flaws in the battle. Stuff that doesn't seem to make sense, and i definitely wasn't an expert. Like why do they bring pikemen to a siege? Pikes are worthless when scaling a wall. Pikes are usually very efficient against cavalry, but when the Rohirrim charges blindly straight into the wall of pikes, which would usually be suicide, they appear to do nothing, and the army disintegrates without any explanation. This stuff isnt explained. The sudden fall of the Keep also bothers me. We see it utterly packed by defenders early on, but they all seem to vanish without trace when the gate is breached. No bodies anywhere. There are very few left inside the hall at the end, so where did they all go?
@@Maedhros587 The explanation for me why there are so many pikeman at Helms Deep is that Saruman created his Army specifically against Rohan- and what Rohan is best known for are their Rohirim, and probably just how many Riders they have. Like I unironically think that most of the (male) population of Rohan can ride and has a horse. So what Saruman was most afraid of when fighting Rohan was having his army attacked by Riders, for example that Eomer rallies a force to attack the besieging army. Of course you could argue that the Urucks then just should have marched with Pikes to the fortress, raise a defensive Perimeter behind them ( I mean wood for a Pallisade is right there and they "only" would have to cover the with of the mountain gap) and then attack with more shields, crossbows and tactics (referring to what Shad mentioned with the lines behind the ladders). Maybe you could argue that Saruman simply hadn’t enough time or resources to create way more shields and train more crossbowmen, but at least for the shields you could then ask if shields wouldn’t have been a better investment then leg armor
@@Maedhros587 kid, please find something else to be a stupid fan of... Prof. Tolkien does not need your brain-dead comments... Peter Jackson does not need your brain-dead comments..
@@bluvil don't bother explaining things to that kid... seems like he is still 8 and just figured out how to copy paste crap from Rings of Power shills...
@@bluvil Not only they were amazing riders, but they had bows. And if your fastest movement is running and your main weapon is a sword (or other short weapon), bunch of guys on horses with bows will absolutely destroy your army. All they need to do is stay far enough from you (which is quite easy on a horse) and shoot arrows until everyone stops moving. Somebody may say that it is not the most honorable way of fight, but explaining how it was smart, brave and honorable is a job for minstrels later.
I think you really have to look at the 'final charge' decision not in a military sense, but in a spiritual one. I might get a bit long-winded on this, so bear with me. Tolkien was a Catholic, and there are dashes of that throughout his work. The Siege of Helms Deep was not only a trial by might of arms, a battle between orcs and men. But it was also about the spiritual conflict within King Theoden. The siege of Helms Deep was Theoden's 'long dark night of the soul', if you like. Coupled with the struggle for the survival of Rohan, the battle was also fought for Theoden's soul. When Aragorn, Gandalf et al arrive in Rohan, the kingdom is sick, frail, afraid, riddled with dispair and hopelessness. This is immediately mirrored in Theoden himself. Certainly, the removal of Saruman's agent Wormtongue goes some way to restoring Theoden's spirit, but not completely. We see he is still driven by fear, to some extent, in his efforts to protect his people. We see his struggle to hold on, over the course of the night, parallel to the efforts of the defenders. But just how brittle his spirit and courage is are shown when in the first light of dawn, and with their being trapped in the keep, Theoden is on the verge of crumbling again. Aragorn knew that they would die regardless of their choice, to stay and defend or ride out to fight, but 'he' had faith that Gandalf wouldn't abandon them. Theoden as yet did not have that unshakeable faith. So you really have to look at Aragon's urge that he and Theoden 'ride out' not as a tactical choice, but a spiritual one. WE know as the audience, that Gandalf and Eomer would have arrived in time to save them if they'd stayed, but I don't think that would have been good enough on its own. Consider for a moment, that there could have been two versions of Theoden. The one who mustered Rohan and rode to Gondor's aid, and one who would not. I think if they'd stayed in the keep, and waited for either death or rescue, that would have resulted in a Theoden whose spirit remained broken, and whose courage, and soul as a king and a man were never reclaimed. I think Aragorn recognised that. His insistence they ride out to face death was one last hail mary play to help Theoden redeem himself. I think Aragorn knew that to get the King Theoden Middle-Earth needed, the one who would sacrifice everything to ride to certain death at Pelennor Fields, he knew that what Theoden needed was a victory, not simply to wait for rescue. The Theoden who rode out to die against the Uruk-Hai was a man prepared to die on his own terms, and that was the man who eventually turned the tide of battle against Sauron. I think the Theoden who waited in the keep, waiting for either death or rescue, would only have kept on waiting for Sauron to destroy Gondor and then turn his armies on Rohan too. He would never, and could never have been the Theoden who met death on his own terms, for all the right reasons.
@@Stev386 I can only apologise for the essay lol I watched Shad's video earlier, and my head got stuck on his consideration of that particular scene for the rest of the day. I tried to shorthand my thoughts as much as possible but it was still so long XD
Funnily enough, in the books, it's the other way around! Théoden basically decides he's too old for this shit and refuses to die 'like a badger in a burrow' - with Aragorn still going on about how at least here Théoden is defended in the greatest keep in Rohan. Arguably, Théoden teaches Aragorn the last lesson on leadership he needs to learn: good old-fashioned Northern courage.
@@JustFlemishMe It's true, my above take is more explicitly drawn from the films than the books. The version of events in the books is indeed quite different. The entire portrayal of Rohan is very different in the books, and you're right, Aragorn is the one who learns something there. That said, I have to privately admit just a little bit that Jackson's tweaked version of Theoden just...'sings' a little bit more to me. Jackson still managed to really tap into those spiritual themes I think Tolkien cared about, in how he presented Theoden's story. Really resonates in that flawed human way. And not in a way that lessens his greatness, but ultimately elevates it, because we see him rise so utterly to the occasion, and give everything, and lose everything, for it.
Holding arrow fire makes sense from a logistics standpoint. If you're involved in a war, expecting to get attacked, you stock up on supplies. This one came as a surprise so all they have are the arrows they carried with them and whatever the peacetime stores are for Helm's Deep. With Grima basically running the show, that probably wasn't much. They need to make every arrow count.
Good point. I always thought that they were trying to delay the actual fighting as long as possible. Just looking at the numbers their only hope is to exhaust the enemy or wait for support. So every minute that they can delay the attack is in their favor. So if the enemy just wants to stand there and pose, let him. But shooting them would for sure provoke them in attacking immediately.
Yes, but if you have arrows, doesnt really matter how many, they should be shooting. The urukhais are not moving they are close togerthere they arent in cover and in the perfekt angle. if there is any time to shoots its then
I agree with @nislthekid4902, the point of this battle is to delay. For all Aragon knows the Spear dance of the Uruk Hai could last a good length. If Time is you Enemies greatest strength, let them waste is whenever possible.
Holding arrow volleys to coordinate everyone together is absolutely never done in history. You ever try to hold a 120lb war bow for extended period? Did not happen
One thing to mention here is also that this really displays the chaos in a such a grand battle. Most movies only do smaller skirimishes and they are much easier to keep organized but if you have thousands of guys fighting like that it would turn into chaos no matter how well organized your army is. Not to mention that this also has these characters get dirty, grimey and sweaty because that is what would happen. It is a brutal chaotic battle in the rain but a lot of more modern movies are "afraid" of making their stars look less pretty.
You mean the time that Tolkein flat out created his own fantasy world version of the siege and relief of Vienna, told everyone that was exactly what he'd done, and noone noticed.
the horn from the top of the structure made the orcs being stunned ...it was sooooo loud they were holding their ears in fear and awe...thats how the charge was made...
@@Flippokid And formations make sense, better strategy is used, no one sends their calvary into a death charge, and no one puts trebuchets OUTSIDE THE WALL.
1:11:11 "They can't bombard the mountain" I about spit my drink out hearing that 🤣🤣 hour and half of this video it flew by. What a piece of work. Great video 🙏
1:01:40 another cool detail about Aragorn and Gimli's "back to back" moment is Aragorn has his left hand touching Gimli, always keeping track of where he is in relation to his partner and which way they're both facing. Fantastic!
I think Legolas speaking in Elvish to the other archers might be more like "They have thick armor you need to aim for weak spots" where as any other enemy the Elves fight it's a one shot one kill, they have masterfully crafted weapons, they are skilled, common orcs are literally wearing trash. It has been thousands of years since the Elves fought tough enemies on mass like that.
The pikes were there because the uruk hai were invading the plains of Rohan. Where every person practically fights mounted. So they may not have been there for the siege, but it allowed them to get to Helm's Deep. And long pikes could be used in formations to block some arrow fire, like how Alexander the Great's phalanx formations had the rear ranks of pikes tilted upward toward the sky to deflect arrows. Also the archers don't have many arrows. Look at the elves on the wall and try counting. They probably wanted to wait to have maximum accuracy and damage with their limited resources. Just a plausible theory to why they held off shooting.
@@davidknight2104yeah that didn’t make sense to me before I realized that they needs bodies to plug the gap in the wall that nobody expected to materialize. You can’t plug that hole with archer fire, they need to get up close and personal. If you have played any game in the Total war series you will have encountered battles where you trust your archer in to plug holes in the walls or gates to make a chocking point where the enemy’s superior number gets negated. We see the same tactic used in Kingdom of heaven. The wall is breached and they plug the gap with swordsmen fighting Saladin to a standstill. That’s why they have to charge the gap, that’s why they still had arrows since the hole was an unexpected surprise. Another reason for their full quivers could also be supportive fire against the orcs scaling over the battlements as they would have a better chance of picking of orcs trickling in rather than blindly firing over the wall. I’ve used this tactic lots of times in BannerLord. Some formation on the wall, reserves on the ground beneath where ladders and siege towers land. Archers gets a point blank shot at enemies trickling in, without the enemy being able to even fight back unless they have range weapons them selves. Due to the tricking the enemy’s range units never stand a chance to make any meaningful danger to my archers in the reserves!:) What’s looks like weird shit can all me made to make sense anyway
You can see that there are barrels full of arrows set up on top of the wall, such as the one immediately to the right of the orc on the left side of the frame at 22:18 and the one in the foreground at 22:59.
Well, the Deeping Wall doesn't have machicolations, meaning that the Uruks could be running for the base of the wall because it really is the safest place to be and the hardest for the archers to shoot at (and impossible for the archers behind the wall to hit). Also, the Uruk's armor is stated to be thickest around the tops of their bodies, meaning that arrows coming directly down upon them would have less effectiveness than from a side angle. Thanks for making this, Shad!
I think the reason Aragorn commands to hold after the first premature arrow, is because he wants to stall the fight as much as possible. Every second they are not fighting is a second closer to dawn without casualties.
It is unfortunate that the Rohan (civilian-)forces decided to 'draw' the arrow, holding up, tiring their arms & mind in a stressful moment of simple pause before first strikes. They probably could've bought, say, 5 more minutes before the charge?... 🤔... ..Maybe 10min, as Uruk-hai probably aren't too bothered by the heavy rain, whilst the Humans will likely get sick, tired, and be drained of resolve to fight long duration. ¿😅That arrow might've been a silver-lining, in the long-term? However, by the time the old man's hand slipped, Aaannd reinforcing that Uruk-hai were in striking-distance, 🙃Aragorn might as well have commanded _(at least the Elves)_ to volley whilst the enemy were still roaring.
@@notagreen-fiend9029 Getting a lucky shot that strikes unarmored spot does not reinforce the idea of being in range, or, rather, in effective range. That and our lucky dude has massive elevation advantage over elves. In general nobody, let alone people in a situation where every shot counts, should waste ammunition and muscles on shooting at extreme ranges even if some kills can be gained this way. Orcs are inevitably going to run into bottlenecks at the wall and majority is going to be stuck there for a loooooooong while no matter when defenders start shooting. Might as well aim those shots at better targets (like crossbowmen), who you can actually target individually from closer distance.
There is also the fact that the defenders did not have large reserves of ammunition. In fact, their ammunition was very limited so they could not afford to be loosing any arrows that weren't likely to maim or kill an orc. Given the armor and distance, it would have been wasteful for them to fire right away and, like you pointed out, would have started the fight immediately when they wanted to stall.
Should have explained they wanted to lure the densely ranks orks closer, so the archers behind the wall were in range. They were going for a "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes" thing...but that was because ammo was scarce (I don't think Helms Deep was conserving anything) and the implication was you wouldn't hit at range. The old man's nervous perfect shot was the issue; his arrow should have just stuck in a shield or the ground uselessly, spurring the overconfident ork charge a moment early. I think they mostly just didn't want the defenders to appear fully dominant, even at the very start of the fight.
I'm tempted to argue that it's not an Uruk ladder as it looks different to the ones the enemy is using. My thoughts are it was a conveniently placed ladder belonging to the defenders for maintaining or accessing areas of the wall.
Nothing from your channel popped on my algorithm for ages now, had to manually look you up, glad I did cause this video was awesome (as most of your videos are, of course). Keep up the great work
Well if he did, he'd have made sure to light the Uruk on fire first before firing, so as to COMPLETELY rip off a scene in that crummy Uwe Boll movie Dungeon Siege (seriously, Rings, of all the things to plagiarize, Uwe Boll's biggest flop...)
I agree about Helms Deep, the battle for Minas Tirith has a lot more silly moments though. Like a cavalry charge into spears that does not have Gandalf blinding the defenders at the last moment, or the Legolas scene slaying the Mumak.
@@frankvandorp9732 stupidest comment I've seen in a while... if cavalry charge into spears is stupid, then by your logic all battles in the chivalry period are stupid... that is real world history kid. a heavy cavalry charge is a devastating attack
1:14:49 I think after a full night of battle, losing what looks like 90% of your force, young boys included, you might be just ready to toss in the towel.
50:30 My personal theory (a Slightly goofy one at that.) Considering how absolutely bloodlusted the Uruk Hai are to get to grips with the defenders (They may be far more organised and better than the average Orc, but at the end of the day, a superior orc is still an orc.) there is the distinct possibility that an Uruk Hai ladder team might, MIGHT… Have gotten a little bit too enthusiastic about the Ladder thing and got briefly confused in the melee and put it on the wrong side of the wall, as a bit of unintentional chaos and humor! 😂 That’s my theory at least. As to why the Uruk’s Brought pikes to a siege battle? Remember, Rohan is PRIMARILY a Calvary army, very rarely fighting on foot or in siege craft. Helm’s deep in fact is treated as their emergency refuge, a place of last resort for them to go, because this is NOT their specialty. Saruman bred and made his army for Specifically fighting the Rohirrim in mind, their pikes for killing them off their horses. They just weren’t fully expecting them to go into a castle siege situation. There was plenty of warning of course, but not enough time to change their armament for the siege, so they had to make do. A fun fact though about the Pikes themselves: According to the Lord of the Rings Encyclopedia (It’s a relatively old book with aspects of the films in mind for additional knowledge on the armaments of the various groups: it’s worth checking out and getting your hands on it.) The pikes weren’t just for dealing with the Calvary charges, but also specifically shaped to help lift the ladders up as levers almost to get them up faster, hence why they were going up so quickly. The book on the Warfare and tactics go into great details on the siege of Helms deep and gives insight to the tactics used. It’s fairly old and slightly dated, but it does help and I’d recommend it to anyone if their interested. Hope this helps, Shad. ☺️
I would think that if the orcs are trying to massacre, not just conquer, they might feel that to kill the defenders on the wall, just using the stairway is a chokepoint. So put up ladders to get many orcs to the top of the wall, which may also have a passageway into the keep.
I would have believe something much simpler. A ladder team arrived at the wall, after the breach and seeing how Uruks were already pouring in, they just put this ladder away to join the fray. Since the inner walls were way too tall for those.
I think the reason they wait is that every second the Uruks posture and daddle is one second closer to dawn. Saruman is arrogant and vain. The Uruks have an overwhelming advantage and it is in line with Sarumans personality to want to toy with the from his perspective hopeless enemy. So firing before the Uruks initiate the siege wastes a chance to let the clock tick towards dawn and salvation.
Fantastic and honest breakdown. Possibly the Uruk-hai are armed with lengthy pikes as it is the most common weaponry they'd use when fighting Rohirrim, which are mainly on horseback. The old man releasing the first arrow, this was done from the keep. Possibly because of its height it has a greater range, which the uruk-hai weren't aware of. That said, not sure why Aragon told them to hold fire while they were in range - maybe because of a limited arsenal of arrows, he wants them to maximise value by taking surer shots? Soldiers ignoring the main entrance initially feels ok because they'd be ignoring continual archer fire from the shorter side wall. You see how exposed the shield line is from the side when they do assault. The ladder on the inside side wall, possibly was hauled over from the outside of the wall, to provide another option for uruk-hais on the wall, to scale down and join their forces in the main bridge.
There's actually a funny story about someone questioning Peter Jackson about where the lighting was coming from because it wasn't realistic and he apparently told the person that it comes from the same place the music does.
3-4months of filming at night and using the same light source for the whole thing does help make it easy to have a "bright" night... sadly, this art apparently died at some point since every bloody movie can't get dark battles right these days...
a few counter-point and questions: - The rohan kingdom is mostly a flat land so i would somewhat excuse them for not having more advance siege defenses. Most of their battle would happen in open field with a heavy preference for cavalry... and also how many time were they besieged by other where they could gain experience and developpe new technique? Our mediaval history had plenty of siege cuz we club one another for centuries. How violent was middle earth versus dark age and medieval Europe? Not just about size of the battles, but how often. If say Minas Thirit had 3 big siege and then century of peace, the place will have flaw and more basic feature than in our history. - I think the whole "collapse the bridge" was simply not an option in the scenario because it was decided that the battle would end on a cavalry charge from the start (could also be a security matter for the filming crew... dunno). Hell for that matter, did we ever saw any kind of drawbridge in that LOTR trilogy? I think i remember the dwarf forteress having one in the other one with Smaug but that's it... - they could have pulled the small ladder over the wall to be able get down the wall on the other side safely. With a high enough angle, they could even use those as (somewhat shaky) stair. Sure they already have stair on the wall on the defender side, but if they climb ladder installed every couple meter on one side and you only have 3 stairways on the other side... bit of a bottleneck they would want a work around.
My perception of the pikes were to counter the Rohirrim, since they would have been on horses. And at the end it would've been effective at the end when Gandalf brought the Rohirrim, the problem was Gandalf using the sun light (or casting a spell) to blind the orcs.
I think Eomer has like 3000 medium cavalry though, so that force - plus the Light / Gandalf’s illuminating spell (depending on what you think was happening there), really disrupted the Uruk battle line 😊
@@AlekTrev006 As much as anything, pikes or no, the Uruks were completely on the backfoot. Bogged down in assaulting a fortress, massively disorganised, exhausted after fighting all night long, crammed tight and unable to maneuver in a tightly packed valley, and at a huge disadvantage meeting a massed cavalry charge at the bottom of a steep slope. No scrambled pike formation on earth would have survived at that point.
That's fair enough, but as someone else said in another comment, it would have been more effective earlier on, like if and when they were on their way to Helm's deep and the Rohhirim attacked them. The orcs would have been fresher and more organized. But the Rohhirim and Eomer were away somewhere, so that attack never happened. So the orcs showed up at Helm's deep with seemingly useless pikes and the pikes were only somewhat useful at the end but for the reasons you said, they couldn't use the pikes to defend against the horses properly.
An important element in regard to Legolas and Gimli's 'competition' is that it comes after Legolas' moment of despair. He had a mini meltdown to Aragon about how they are all doomed, and then later apologises for it to him. Next we see him joking with Gimli about who can kill the most enemy. It was his way of dealing with the horror and desperation of the situation and it works. (Movie lore obvs)
I think seeing their King in the open, surrounded, and nearly alone would drive the Northmen into a desperate attacking fury even more, as we see. As Eomer bellows, "TO THE KING!!" And it shows the horsemen are willing to crash headlong into a pike wall to reach him. Tears welling up sort of stuff. God bless Shad.
Fantastic autopsy of this wonderful battle. Very fair, too. Of course it's not perfect, but you drove home the point why it's vastly superior to the siege in RoP. Not that I doubted it for a second, because I watched this movie easily a hundred times. It was still great to see you pick it apart and how well it stood up to it in contrast to RoP. I 100% agree with what you pointed out. Wonderfully done.
From what I remember from the book, the reason the wall was so important to take was that the field behind it was supposed to be large enough to grow food for the garison pretty much indefinately. If you take the wall, then you might be able to win just because of dwindling supplies inside.
From a purely tactical standpoint, I think the reason you had to take the long wall first was it was massed with archers. Imagine trying to do the giant ladder thing assaulting the main keep when you had hundreds of archers raking your troops from the flank. The long wall had to go first, THEN you could move on the keep.
Looks like the orc with the special torch has a thermite type of flame, so it melts through the bomb and detonates it where a normal torch might not have (because it looks really wet in this scene)
Since it's raining, and the orks aren't using fire arrows or other flaming projectiles at all...they really should have just ditched their torches altogether. There's sufficient ambient light, and the torches are so few already it's not like they add much to the cinematography. Would have made the big sparkler even more distinct and threatening.
@@verihimthered2418 he knows there abilities and trusts them without hesitation, only other person who showed that in the films was elrond, it may be different in the books, but in the films it feels like its intended to show aragorn knows what those around him can do and knows how to use there abilities
You really think an elf that has lived for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and trained as an archer for all that time, would accidentally shoot an ally in the back of the head?
The Lord of the Rings films never cease to amaze me. All these years later, and we still get 1.5hr video essays analyzing specific sequences from the films. Incredible testament to show just how timeless those films are and will always be!
We can all go on and on about how bad the current stuff is and in a way that is needed. But I believe that to build a better field of entertainment we need to go back and bring attention to that which was awesome. It is only then people will begin to see what it was we want. It's also just good to take the time to appreciate what once was and just enjoy it. It uplifts the spirit and better to focus on the good just as much as the bad. With that said this battle was PEAK entertainment.
Completely worth watching the whole video. It took me a couple days, but I love your battle scene autopsies so much! Helm's Deep is honestly my favorite battle in the entire trilogy, even over the siege of Gondor, it's just so well done and emotionally investing.
I agree fully. Aragon knew that their only chance was for Gandalf to come at dawn, so they had to survive the light. I always interpreted the urukhai standing within range and grunting an intimidation tactic to scare the men in the keep and demoralize them. And when the arrow took one down, it was go time. No more stalling
It’s refreshing to see a much better siege. There’s even some unorthodox tactics that have some credence like the initial rush with the ladders and the ballistae. And especially because there isn’t a moment where the attackers seem to let the defenders stand there and have a conversation. The walls are constantly under threat, the defenders are always occupied while the besiegers try their next tactic.
In defence of Theoden’s decision to hold the gate there is a personal reason for him to physically be among his people fighting. At this point in time Theoden is quite ashamed of himself, ashamed of how he was bewitched and how his people suffered while he languished in his hall, and of course the death of his son. He is feeling personally responsible for the situation and feels the need to personally make amends though valorous acts. That forms the crux of his character arc from The Two Towers and Return of the King. Theoden only really feels worthy and forgiven for his failure when he falls saving Minas Tirith. In the book it’s when he specifically personally slew the Haradrim commander, causing their part in the siege to buckle. Then his horse is shot with a dart that is implied by not stated to have come from the Witch-King, which the movie shows as the Witch-King smashing him with his Fell Beast mount. Secondly is that he’s taking his bodyguards with him and they are likely some of the best warriors he has on hand, taking the best with him to shore up the breach.
As for that last position, while it is true that it can be held, there is only so much you can do against the heavy press of bodies that don’t care if they die, Uruk-hai are naturally a fair bit stronger than regular men. Every showing we see of Uruk-hai they are undone by tactical advantage and/or skill-at-arms, otherwise they win every other contest of brute force. Throw enough determined armoured bodies into the gap, possibly with their own pikes and they will break the chokehold sooner or later. There’s just too much brute force for these exhausted defenders to corral into a doorway for long. That said, they aren’t expected a cavalry charge at this point, so them being disorientated and their first instinct being to duck out of the way makes total sense. They’re expecting to push into the last defensive point, not for the best cavalry in Middle Earth to suddenly charge from within a fortress. Before I forget, I think the majority of the surviving defenders were retreating through the passage in the caves while the King and his guard (plus Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas) were buying time for them to get a headstart either by holding the door or riding out to get their attention.
8 seasons of build up for one of the worst pay offs ever and cringe-inducing tacticts. I argued at the time that the series would've been so much better if the Night King won and started making his way towards Kings Landing. Could've had the main characters picked up by the dragons. With how GoT ended. It would've been the far better ending as well.
I am just astonished how much love and thought was put into movies back then. As a kid i did not actively notice much about it, but now as a grown man some of these scenes even have me tearing up a little. Maybe its time to rewatch some more of those proper old movies again. Its not like there is much new content thats worth even glancing at.
About the last door, something to consider that would add to the despair would be the possibility of more bombs like the ones that breached the outer wall then it would be just a matter of time and no formation would save you then as that explosion would either open it up too much or just outright collapse the keep (or mountain cave it's in).
I'm glad to see you doing these on _good_ scenes again. I'd love to see a fight autopsy on Aragorn's duel with Lurtz (the Uruk who shoots Boromir) at the end of the first film. It'd be much shorter but there's some really fun swordplay in that scene and I think it'd make for a fun video.
1:19:19 Stolen from comment of other youtube video: "That enormous horn built into the tower, the Horn of Helm Hammerhand, is not just a signal. It's actually a dwarven-made WEAPON, a gift of friendship from the Dwarves. When sounded the loud Horn echoes off the walls of the Deeping Coomb and the mountains around it, continuously bombarding anyone in the valley with reverberating sound at what I'd guess is about 140-160 decibels for as long as the blower keeps blowing, while the thick walls and placement of the Horn and the fortress baffles the sound and protects the defenders from it. This is why none of the orcs siezed onto the riders or attacked as they charged... They were in pain and disoriented from Gimli sounding the Horn full volume and literally couldn't SEE the riders. Pay attention and you notice the Horn stopped sounding as Theoden and Aragorn entered the valley. This is also why Gimli was giddy with glee and sprinted up the tower to be the one to sound it. The Horn of Helm Hammerhand is a one of a kind dwarven masterwork weapon that cannot be replicated because it relies on the acoustics of the valley as much as engineering, and any dwarf would shave their beard for a chance to use it!"
I don't recall Tolkien ever describing it as an actual sonic weapon, but it did reverberate throughout the valley, giving the impression of multiple armies being arrayed to face the attackers, which greatly demoralized Saruman's army. The Huorns spooked them further. Also in the book version the defenders definitely had greater numbers left at the end, and they were sallying from more than one point (some of them were holed up in the caves at the end of the valley, outside of Hornburg). The attackers were wavering even before they noticed Gandalf and Erkenbrand (in the book Eomer was with Theoden inside the fortress instead of the elves and it was a different guy Gandalf brought in) moving in to seal their fate.
It's one of the moments that is better depicted in the Bakshi animated version, as it's clearer that the sounding of the horn causes the attackers to panic into a brief retreat, allowing Theoden and the others to get out of the keep and get a few good hits in before the attackers regroup. It's also better in that Gandalf's arrival with reinforcements is more of a surprise, where there's a reminder of it just before they ride out in the Jackson version which I think undercuts the tension a bit when it should seem that all is lost. All the siege battle stuff is obviously better in Jackson's, but for me that last ride out is better done in Bakshi's.
Pikes are known to have defensive capabilities IRL. The Macedonian Phalanx had rows of soldiers. The first lines would line the Sarissas up front while the last lines would keep them up high. This happened both to not wound themselves and to stop arrow fire since they worked like a forest. They weren't as good as shields but did their work.
I have a theory that the reason the orcs charged the wall before the ladders was in an effort to make the archers run out of arrows to allow for a smoother transfer of the bomb. If this is the case, it would explain why they don't even plant the bomb for a while in the fight. Their entire strategy crumbles if the bombs don't make it to the wall.
I always wandered why none of the closer Uruk Hai used their torched and only now, because of your lil comment "does it need a special torch?" I realised... yes, it does! Look at his torch! The berserk has a much much different torch than all the other guys. Of course, it serves the purpose of making him more visible to the viewer, but it does seem to imply his torch is some kind of a special one... I love it! And I would've never found it out if not for this video... thanks, Shad!
And iirc, it was his idea. And PJ agreed because skateboard tricks were becoming cool at that time of shooting, so it seemed both cool and relevant for the youth audience at the time
1:13:10 I'm thinking at this point the defenders were almost completely exhausted from an entire evening's worth of fighting whereas their enemies are always fresh because they just keep sending more Uruk Hai. Maybe Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli could keep fighting because they might be mildly superhuman like you said. But the rest of the defenders are basically militia as they said earlier in the film. They're not trained. They are sleep-deprived. They are constantly retreating from blow after blow to their defenses. Morale was probably low enough to warrant that desperate quote from Theoden.
We can recall the entire chain of events in Helm's Deep because it was a logical battlefield with a logical sequence of events involving characters in whom we are invested. I can really only recall mud and Eregion burning in RoP.
There is actually an in lore explanation of the size of the cover: it is a dwarf built fortress, abandoned by them many many years and now used by Rohan, a not very capable (engineering wise) people, so they just maintained the fortress in as-is condition. If you see gimli he is perfectly sized for the cover
No, Helm's Deep was built by Gondor. Gimli led a colony of Dwarves into there *after* the War and they built a new Dwarven city into the Glittering Caves behind Helm's Deep.
I listened to the audiobook recently and Gimli is amazed by Helm deep. Something like "Caves! Caves!? They call them caves! Dwarfs would pay just to see this place in gold!" And then there is a conversation between him and Legolas about it and in the end they make the promise that Legolas will visit those caves if Gimli visits Fangorn. It is beautiful scene.
Beside the cinematic reason for the ladder inside the wall, it does act as a force multiplier at the top of the stair where the Uruk Hai would be the most bottle-necked and take the most casualties, defending their access point with a ladderful of infantry grunts to ensure the shock troops get to the top of the wall.
My head canon RE Uruk-hai pikes is that Saruman wanted his army equipped to deal with Rohirrim cavalry in the field. He figured if Rohan bottled themselves into Helms Deep their numerical advantage would be more than enough to overcome the suboptimal weaponry.
I think the pikes were intended to protect them from sorties and attacks on the march. It's better to have them on the way, so you are less vulnerable to attacks by the best cavalry of Middle Earth. Also the Uruk-Hai are known for their endurance so the extra weight wouldn't have been much of a problem. Of course bigger shields would have been useful when approaching a fortress.
One possible reason for the archers holding off was that earlier in the film Gimli commented that the Uruk-Hai''s "Armor thick and their shields broad". Him pointing this out would only make sense if it was considerably thicker and thus more durable than existing armor in Middle Earth, meaning they may have seen it as futile to shoot arrows that might not have enough power to penetrate the Uruk-Hai's armor, since from a further range they would most likely not be able to hit the neck and below the arms consistently.
12:00 theres no reason why they are holding" Oh Shad, sweet sweet Shad. You said why 5 minutes ago "They are waiting for Gandalf to arrive with backup."
I'm not saying it's the only content I want but Shad sat down on his own in a blazer infront of a camera and a microphone is the content I subscribed for all those years ago
OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!! This is such a nice surprise after my evening class!! I hope you do more analysis on LOTR battles. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on them. Hope you're doing well, Shad!!
NO SHOT YOU DID IT YOURE THE BEST I LOVE YOU I LEFT A COMMENT ON THE LAST VID ASKING FOR THIS YESSSSS! YO EVERYONE LIKE THIS VIDEO WE NEED A WHOLE SERIES OF 'DONE RIGHT FIGHTS'!
My headcannon for the higher number of pikemen was the Orcs were expecting to fight the calvary that the region is so famous for. Pikes are excellent for open field battles and great against cavalry. It was the humans that decided to retreat to a fortress, something the Orcs might not have taken into consideration. Orcs were also generally just considered disposable and given cheap items. Pikes are likely alot cheaper to make than shields.
9:20 I always figured that was to contrast the discipline of the half-human Uruk-hai to the goblins. Goblins don't care about how many of them get killed because there's so many to replace them, and they're also *considered* replaceable - i.e. their masters don't care about the individual, they're just so many meatbags to throw into a battle at a whim. Meanwhile Uruk-hai have just enough human still in them to recognize that discipline and tactics and less death on their side is a good thing. It invokes two different fears - the "swarm of uncontrollable vermin" fear vs. the "calculating, intelligent malevolence" fear.
No, it's literally the opposite. Uruk Hai are far more fearless and don't care if they die. Plus Saruman put a spell on them so they wouldn't feel fear or pain. Uruks don't retreat or surrender. Regular orcs are the cowards and would be the first to run or give up.
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This was actually worth the full hour and a half. When I saw the length of the video I rolled my eyes, but then as I listened to it I was amazed at the detail of the analysis and the clarity of the thinking that went into it. Excellent work.
The long Man would be proud.
@@rapidrhinos2254 The caverns of Aglarond were located at Helm's Deep. They are depicted in the movies as the place where the women and children are sheltering during the battle. The wall was to protect the entrances to the caverns, (since there were several entrances spread over a fairly wide area) which were important to the people of Rohan as storehouses even when they weren't being used as a shelter for refugees. The much higher keep was to protect the wall and make it harder for an enemy to take and occupy it for any length of time. Due to the fact that the movie had a lot less time for in-depth explanations than the books did, details like that were left unexplained.
whats funny is that in the book the battle was even more grandiose and epic....
Long /= Bad comrade, we are all happy to welcome you to the long
>Saw long video
>Rolled eyes
Holy tiktok brain
Shad is technically right but misses quite a few important story points. The Helm's Deep defenders didn't have any anti-siege weapons (and lacked any decent weapons in general) because Rohan had actively been stopped from preparing for any kind of war by Wormtongue. Aragorn even tells a boy he has a "good sword" when it's plainly a crap sword. The Fellowship didn't want to fight at Helms Deep at all (which had long been abandoned), and only did so because Theoden insisted. So Helm's Deep was totally lacking in anti-siege weapons, push-poles etc., and was generally in a state of disrepair.
The defenders had spears because they're armed as riders, not siege defenders, and were at peace until a few days ago. The Uruks were armed with heaps of pikes because Saruman was expecting to fight cavalry (which is how Aragorn wanted to fight, to stay mobile and draw the enemy away from the civilians).
The ladders were too high for the (long) wall because Saruman was planning to lay siege to Edoras, not Helm's Deep. Admittedly the huge ladders don't make a lot of sense but presumably Helm's Deep was Saruman's Plan B. Regardless, Edoras would have fallen quickly, so Saruman probably didn't think the Uruks needed a lot of shields to protect against arrows in a prolonged siege.
The defenders also might have hesitated to start shooting for two reasons: 1. Aragorn was buying time and didn't know if the Uruks would attack immediately or settle in for a siege (which he was presumably hoping the Uruks would do), and 2. The defenders (including the Elves) only had what arrows they carried to Helm's Deep, and didn't have thousands in reserve, so every shot needed to count.
Shad isn't wrong exactly but a lot of the "flaws" he points out are explained by the circumstances of the story.
This was brilliant read. Thank you.
The one point I must question was the one about saruman planning to lay some to Edoras. Maybe I'm misremembering but I recall saruman saying in his narration/monologue (maybe to Grima wormtongue) that Theoden would flee to helms deep as that is where he would feel safest, or something like that. His original plan was for Theoden to remain in his sedated condition but after Grima returned I think he fully expected them to flee to helms deep.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Sure the battle of helms deep isn't perfect from a battle tactics perspective but what both sides do makes sense given the information we have.
The biggest thing he misses is that the ladders and even the battering ram were nothing more than the cover to get the bombs under the wall. First you hit them with ladders so they don't notice the ram, then you hit them with the ram so they don't notice the sappers and then boom, you have the outer wall and then just need the gate down to win.
That was Grima monologuing to Saruman. He was basically briefing him on everything Theoden was thinking & going to do most likely now that he was out from under the spell.
Also, Theoden was at least partially justified in his logic for going to Helms Deep, as he knew with orcs & wildman rampaging across the land, many of his people would have fled their undefendable villages to the only real fortified location, especially absent any sign of the Rohirrim. As shown by the children's mother already being there, and supplies alreasy being stockpiled.
Sarumon might very well have planned to march on Edoras with the expectation of fighting what force Theoden could rally in the field, defeat it, sack the city, then have the Uruks pillage the coutryside to A:draw out Eomers forces to again battle & defeat, possibly piecemeal, & B: drive more to Helms Deep, including the remainders of whatever forces he defeated.
This would have left Helms Deep swamped with dispirited, wounded & leaderless people that had been harried all the way there.
Theoden immediately falling back to the Deep just meant Sarumon was able to skip a couple of steps in the plan and save some time. As far as either he or Grima(or Theoden) knew, the bulk of the Rohirrim under Eomer were well too far away to be called back in time even if a rider could find them. But they would return once word of Theodens revival or the Uruk march reached them.
So sack Helms Deep quickly( which Sarumon believes they can do) then HE has the fortification the Rohirrim have to tackle, for which they are completely unsuited for.
He ironically didnt count on the workings of a wizard, & that Grimas political machinations to drive Eomer from Theoden would fall apart so quickly.
It's a good thing Peter Jackson was able to learn from the mistakes of Rings of Power to make sure his own siege-battle scene was much better constructed.
No... wait a minute...
are you making fun of Jackson's scenes or is this a sarcastic comment about RoP??
@@niamsidriI believe it's a sarcastic comment about Rings of Power failing to learn from Peter Jackson's Helm's Deep, that is to say Rings of Power turned out worse despite having a good example to learn from.
@@niamsidri Is because the youtuber is similar to peter
Maybe the orcs leaned from their mistakes in-universe, so by the end of 3rd age, they finally had figured out someone should actually climb those siege ladders, lol.
@@niamsidri Sarcastic.
The "Aragorn on the ladder" scene is one that me and my friends debated 20 years ago. This is the answer we came up with: The Uruk-hai brought the ladder inside because there are internal walls against the Hornburg Keep so they were going to use it later. However the Uruk-hai were forced to place the ladder down prematurely because of how many unexpected defenders there were inside the Deeping Wall. They chucked it up against the wall on the inside to free their hands to fight in a random place. There is a gap between the back of the Deeping Wall and the staircase to the Hornburg Keep. Since most of the attacking Uruk-hai would be funneling in a thick line from the breach toward the internal staircase Aragorn looked down, saw the thickest number of enemies were directly at the bottom of the stairs, but there would be far fewer Uruk-hai 20-30ft out from the stairs, which is where he would land by riding the ladder down.
Is it what I would do? No. I would have gathered any allies nearby and made a fighting retreat to the closest staircase on foot. We sometimes forget that the Jackson films (although they had have some over-the-top moments) that Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas etc are literally superhumans. Gimli is as strong as 3 strong men, shrugs off injuries that would be mortal on a normal person, and has literally infinite stamina. Dwarves do not get tired from normal exertion. Aragorn has a combination of Numenorian strength and speed which is peak-human, combined with 80+ years of Elven and Dunedain warrior training. Just to name some Tolkien canon points about those guys.
During my watches I always just assumed it was a helms deep ladder. Big fortress like that would have some and It and others would help if an escape back down or a quick reinforcements up to a particular spot on the wall was needed.
I had always figured the ladder on the inside was pulled up from the outside by the defenders and they placed it there to get it out of the way.
I had similar theories for all three of these points. At the end of the day we don't know what's 'true' but Shad probably could have come up with a more valid idea considering that ladders for defenders inside of castle walls wasn't an uncommon thing even if there is stair access.
I think that Uruk-Hai's were armed with pikes is because at the beginning Saruman thought that Rohirrims are going to fight his orc army in open field using cavalry charges. But Theoden decide to hide his people in Helm's Deep and Saruman was like "Well... we made so many pikes. We invested many resources and time to make them and can't throw them away. So let's Uruks take them anyway"
I had the same thought, At this point in the books the remains of Erkanbrand's Army was still around and Gandalf was looking for them. In the Movies it was Eomer's forces. And so carrying their pike would of been smart if for no other reason than to be prepared for an attack.
@@Blackmark7410 Yes, true. It would've worked but... POCKET SUN!!
(start shining sunlight in the orcs eyes)
@@grayskull8629 How the hell are you sneaking a king of the hill reference in there?
@@alexperlingerha sha sha..
@@grayskull8629I tip my hat to your great reference
Legolas's players at the table, "Guys, this is gonna be so sick. Ok DM, is there a shield anywhere near the stairs?"
Gimli's player, "God damn it Orlando, you always risk the battles just to do stupid shit like this"
"No no, it'll be fine. I just wanna shield surf down the stairs while I made bow attacks"
DM: "That sounds rad as shit, I'll allow it."
Brilliant . (nice touch having the 'player' as Orlando. )
@@Grandwigg Just needed to add in John Rhys Davies as the speaker for Gimli's player. :)
@@ChaoticYak1 lol. Ashamed to say that I only remembered that Orlando Bloom played Legolas because it was mentioned in the comment (And I vaguely recognized his name in general. Not that I could tell you any of his other roles). To say nothing of most of the other characters and actors. I've always been bad about that kind of thing.
@@ChaoticYak1 and Peter Jackson as the DM
"First Agility Check, passed. Second Agility Check...failed. Sorry, man. Legolas shoots three orks while skateboarding down like a badass, then falls on his ass at the foot of the stairs."
One of the best theater experiences I’ve ever had was being able to watch the battle of Helm’s Deep.
It was a truly epic experience.
I'm jealous
@@cremlindor6607 same
@@cremlindor6607it happened just recently. In theaters
Awesome. 😊
My take on the initial rush to the wall is that it's a cover. The ladder assault isn't intended to actually take the walls, it's there to get the defenders focused on the mass of attackers and then on the ladders, so they ignore any strange noises and activity happening around the grate until it's too late. Because of that they don't care about doing it properly or setting up proper formations for it.
Also, lack of murder holes makes the foot of the wall a very safe place to be! Just look to saving private ray, the mantra is get if the beach as you’re safer under the guns than in front of them
Also, by breaking formation and rushing, you are forcing the enemy to use up their arrows (that are limited). In a normal army, that would never happen, men are not as mindless and the leaders tend not to waste them as such. But they are orcs. Being brought to a frenzy and rushing to be turned into a pin cushions is not that big of a deal for them. So when defenders have used up their arrow supply, they can rush in with siege equipment and storm the walls.
And that is the main flaw from Shad's perspective. He judges orc army as he would a classic medieval army - which is wrong. They don't really care about casualties, they are not really fighting a classic battle. If they had no siege equipment, that's an army that would rush the wall only so they could make a ramp of their own dead to climb on top of the walls. They are almost like a swarm. So you can't judge what they do based on what humans did in medieval battles.
He also makes a few comments about the Helm's Deep fortress and its design flaws. The thing is, that fortress is very old. Thousands of years old by the time of that battle. Certain medieval standards of castle building were not yet implemented at the time. It would be like looking at a fortification from 2000BC and judging it by 1200AD castle standards. That's just stupid. Old fortifications were VERY basic, so it makes sense that Hornburg (fort in Helm's Deep) is also lacking quite a few of those "modern" practices and design.
In general, Shad looked at this battle like two human armies clashing in the medieval times. So he made more mistakes in his judgement and analysis than the film actually did depicting them.
@@Wustenfuchs109 couldn’t agree more! Today’s equivalent would be russias “tactic” of hitting Ukrainian positions with meat as “identify russian artillery and infantry” positions. It forces Ukraine to use very limited and precious artillery shells and relocating which put the artillery out of the battlefield for a time until they are ready to fire again.
So we have literal Uruk-hai tactics in 2024! Totally “justifies” the tactic of meat shields in the battle in helms deep
I say it's because there is variation in the quality of ork troops; the outfit tasked with the main gate has purpose-appropriate shields and battering rams and diligent formations --they're the specialists. The guys on the ground are from a lesser outfit, the unskilled dregs that overwhelm with crude but effective massed tactics (another reason the sophisticated bomb was inappropriate for this phase of the fight)
I think the buildup before the battle also deserves some cred. Like, that shot of a guy putting a helmet on a kid, really sells how desperate the situation was.
I think you can later see the kid dropping stones on the urukhai by first gate
@@glorialiedtke8931 Indeed you can.
@@glorialiedtke8931 I am trying to see the boy but I cant see him there 1:08:15...
@@glorialiedtke8931 But already without a helmet, kid thought he would be a named character :)
@@mariano98ify you can see him at 37:14 without a helmet
The last charge was symbolic and you can find real history examples. It's a final act of an army that knows they're done, but it's to send a message to the enemy that they will not accept defeat, and it's a powerful message and moral boost to allies. The Alamo actually is a more recent example. I'm not saying it's the best strategic choice, but you have to remember, not every tactic is decided by numbers, you have to account for the human equation. And to me, that's really inspiring.
I heard the question before, "Why did the uruks bring pikes to a siege? What are they going to to with that? poke the wall?"
But that question doesn't take into account that they produced those pike in preparation against a force that is known for its cavalry. The production of those pikes started before the humans fled to the keep.
Yea, the Uruks probably preparing for counter attack too
Pikes can be set on the ground. There is no reason to raise them, until there is a target they can hit with them.
Also, if they know they are going to breach the wall, it's pretty historical to try to use pikes and long polearms to go through it
@@sprinkle61 Gives some defence against arrows when they're all raised.
@@sprinkle61 those pikes are rised for two reasons:
Practical: it is easier to cary them rised up in such a large group. If they are alongside the troops it would be impossible to manouver. They also used the pikes to push the ladders against the wall, at 2043;
Cinematic: large army bearing arms looks much better and more menacing than large army without arms visible.
One thing I think is important to remember about Theoden at this point is that he has recently been freed from possession from Saruman, had to bury his son, and his country has been under constant pillaging by raiders and uruks. The story has already made a point that going to Helm's Deep is not the best choice, especially since they don't really have the manpower to hold off a siege. I think him getting involved at the gate like he does makes sense considering he probably isn't in the best headspace at this point in time.
Not just mentally but physically, he'd been in a magical coma for who knows how long. It's like an athlete recovering from a major injury and finally being healthy, getting the chance to get real action again for the first time. He wanted to swing that sword arm again, take the heads off some orcs and inspire his men at the same time. Hard to blame him.
I actually think sending the king to the gate is a strong point of tactical leadership. That gate is the single most important vulnerability, and therefore the most important part of the defense - but is that what is drawing the most defensive power at this point of the battle? No. Everyone is focused on that long wall, the ladders, the explosion. Indeed, this is probably why they attacked the wall first, and not the keep. They're distracting/eliminating the defenders on the long wall, and thereby preventing the kind of defensive crossfire that could prevent a successful assault on the keep's gate. It's vital that they defend the gate above all else. Yet the enemy's strategy has been to first remove all ancillary defenses of that gate, and to distract the defenders from this crucial point of attack.
The king personally going to defend the gate, despite them already having sufficient force to defend it, signals to those at the gate how important it is that they hold this point. It's literally important enough to risk the king's personal safety to defend it. Indeed, word will spread among the commanders that the King has shifted to the gate, which will refocus the entire defensive effort back to that point of vulnerability. "The king is at the gate." "We must defend him!" ... and by extension they will defend the gate, which they might otherwise be too distracted to do.
Now consider that Theoden chose to make this point early in the assault of the gate, when his personal safety was least in jeopardy, but late enough in the battle that he could see the enemy's distracting tactics were working. He made his point, but did so without really risking his life. He's not addled. He's taking this opportunity to be a strong leader, which is something he couldn't do when under Saruman's spell.
Yeah, it's pretty clear he's ready to go out in a blaze of glory in a sense. They've breached the walls, and they're beating down the door to the inner fortress. As you said, he's already going through so much at this time, if he's convinced he's going to die, he'd rather do it on his horse swinging his sword than hiding in a cave. It wouldn't be in his character.
One of the big takeaways I’m getting from this is, with battles like Helm’s deep, it takes some hard scrutiny, often from an expert, to pick out the flaws.
With Rings of Power, a complete layman can see the idiotic flaws.
When I was like 8, I was bothered by the flaws in the battle. Stuff that doesn't seem to make sense, and i definitely wasn't an expert. Like why do they bring pikemen to a siege? Pikes are worthless when scaling a wall. Pikes are usually very efficient against cavalry, but when the Rohirrim charges blindly straight into the wall of pikes, which would usually be suicide, they appear to do nothing, and the army disintegrates without any explanation. This stuff isnt explained. The sudden fall of the Keep also bothers me. We see it utterly packed by defenders early on, but they all seem to vanish without trace when the gate is breached. No bodies anywhere. There are very few left inside the hall at the end, so where did they all go?
@@Maedhros587 The explanation for me why there are so many pikeman at Helms Deep is that Saruman created his Army specifically against Rohan- and what Rohan is best known for are their Rohirim, and probably just how many Riders they have. Like I unironically think that most of the (male) population of Rohan can ride and has a horse. So what Saruman was most afraid of when fighting Rohan was having his army attacked by Riders, for example that Eomer rallies a force to attack the besieging army. Of course you could argue that the Urucks then just should have marched with Pikes to the fortress, raise a defensive Perimeter behind them ( I mean wood for a Pallisade is right there and they "only" would have to cover the with of the mountain gap) and then attack with more shields, crossbows and tactics (referring to what Shad mentioned with the lines behind the ladders). Maybe you could argue that Saruman simply hadn’t enough time or resources to create way more shields and train more crossbowmen, but at least for the shields you could then ask if shields wouldn’t have been a better investment then leg armor
@@Maedhros587 kid, please find something else to be a stupid fan of... Prof. Tolkien does not need your brain-dead comments... Peter Jackson does not need your brain-dead comments..
@@bluvil don't bother explaining things to that kid... seems like he is still 8 and just figured out how to copy paste crap from Rings of Power shills...
@@bluvil Not only they were amazing riders, but they had bows. And if your fastest movement is running and your main weapon is a sword (or other short weapon), bunch of guys on horses with bows will absolutely destroy your army. All they need to do is stay far enough from you (which is quite easy on a horse) and shoot arrows until everyone stops moving.
Somebody may say that it is not the most honorable way of fight, but explaining how it was smart, brave and honorable is a job for minstrels later.
I think you really have to look at the 'final charge' decision not in a military sense, but in a spiritual one. I might get a bit long-winded on this, so bear with me.
Tolkien was a Catholic, and there are dashes of that throughout his work. The Siege of Helms Deep was not only a trial by might of arms, a battle between orcs and men. But it was also about the spiritual conflict within King Theoden. The siege of Helms Deep was Theoden's 'long dark night of the soul', if you like. Coupled with the struggle for the survival of Rohan, the battle was also fought for Theoden's soul.
When Aragorn, Gandalf et al arrive in Rohan, the kingdom is sick, frail, afraid, riddled with dispair and hopelessness. This is immediately mirrored in Theoden himself. Certainly, the removal of Saruman's agent Wormtongue goes some way to restoring Theoden's spirit, but not completely. We see he is still driven by fear, to some extent, in his efforts to protect his people.
We see his struggle to hold on, over the course of the night, parallel to the efforts of the defenders. But just how brittle his spirit and courage is are shown when in the first light of dawn, and with their being trapped in the keep, Theoden is on the verge of crumbling again.
Aragorn knew that they would die regardless of their choice, to stay and defend or ride out to fight, but 'he' had faith that Gandalf wouldn't abandon them. Theoden as yet did not have that unshakeable faith. So you really have to look at Aragon's urge that he and Theoden 'ride out' not as a tactical choice, but a spiritual one. WE know as the audience, that Gandalf and Eomer would have arrived in time to save them if they'd stayed, but I don't think that would have been good enough on its own.
Consider for a moment, that there could have been two versions of Theoden. The one who mustered Rohan and rode to Gondor's aid, and one who would not.
I think if they'd stayed in the keep, and waited for either death or rescue, that would have resulted in a Theoden whose spirit remained broken, and whose courage, and soul as a king and a man were never reclaimed. I think Aragorn recognised that. His insistence they ride out to face death was one last hail mary play to help Theoden redeem himself. I think Aragorn knew that to get the King Theoden Middle-Earth needed, the one who would sacrifice everything to ride to certain death at Pelennor Fields, he knew that what Theoden needed was a victory, not simply to wait for rescue. The Theoden who rode out to die against the Uruk-Hai was a man prepared to die on his own terms, and that was the man who eventually turned the tide of battle against Sauron.
I think the Theoden who waited in the keep, waiting for either death or rescue, would only have kept on waiting for Sauron to destroy Gondor and then turn his armies on Rohan too. He would never, and could never have been the Theoden who met death on his own terms, for all the right reasons.
Beautifully put, yes!
@@Stev386 I can only apologise for the essay lol I watched Shad's video earlier, and my head got stuck on his consideration of that particular scene for the rest of the day. I tried to shorthand my thoughts as much as possible but it was still so long XD
Funnily enough, in the books, it's the other way around! Théoden basically decides he's too old for this shit and refuses to die 'like a badger in a burrow' - with Aragorn still going on about how at least here Théoden is defended in the greatest keep in Rohan. Arguably, Théoden teaches Aragorn the last lesson on leadership he needs to learn: good old-fashioned Northern courage.
@@JustFlemishMe It's true, my above take is more explicitly drawn from the films than the books. The version of events in the books is indeed quite different. The entire portrayal of Rohan is very different in the books, and you're right, Aragorn is the one who learns something there.
That said, I have to privately admit just a little bit that Jackson's tweaked version of Theoden just...'sings' a little bit more to me. Jackson still managed to really tap into those spiritual themes I think Tolkien cared about, in how he presented Theoden's story. Really resonates in that flawed human way. And not in a way that lessens his greatness, but ultimately elevates it, because we see him rise so utterly to the occasion, and give everything, and lose everything, for it.
Bravo.
Holding arrow fire makes sense from a logistics standpoint. If you're involved in a war, expecting to get attacked, you stock up on supplies. This one came as a surprise so all they have are the arrows they carried with them and whatever the peacetime stores are for Helm's Deep. With Grima basically running the show, that probably wasn't much. They need to make every arrow count.
Good point. I always thought that they were trying to delay the actual fighting as long as possible. Just looking at the numbers their only hope is to exhaust the enemy or wait for support. So every minute that they can delay the attack is in their favor. So if the enemy just wants to stand there and pose, let him. But shooting them would for sure provoke them in attacking immediately.
Yes, but if you have arrows, doesnt really matter how many, they should be shooting. The urukhais are not moving they are close togerthere they arent in cover and in the perfekt angle. if there is any time to shoots its then
I agree with @nislthekid4902, the point of this battle is to delay. For all Aragon knows the Spear dance of the Uruk Hai could last a good length. If Time is you Enemies greatest strength, let them waste is whenever possible.
Holding arrow volleys to coordinate everyone together is absolutely never done in history. You ever try to hold a 120lb war bow for extended period? Did not happen
I figured it was because they were looking for the ladders. The main characters would clearly know the urukai fighting style, being a ranger and elf.
One thing to mention here is also that this really displays the chaos in a such a grand battle. Most movies only do smaller skirimishes and they are much easier to keep organized but if you have thousands of guys fighting like that it would turn into chaos no matter how well organized your army is. Not to mention that this also has these characters get dirty, grimey and sweaty because that is what would happen. It is a brutal chaotic battle in the rain but a lot of more modern movies are "afraid" of making their stars look less pretty.
Shad, you have to do the battle at Pelennor field for your next fight sense.
You mean the time that Tolkein flat out created his own fantasy world version of the siege and relief of Vienna, told everyone that was exactly what he'd done, and noone noticed.
& the siege of Minas Tirith.
Peter Jackson very disappointingly cut it short with the ghost swarm. Now, the Battle of Pelennor Fields from the book--that's something!
@@skjaldulfr I, for one, very much enjoyed the ghost swarm.
@@skjaldulfr how do You think that would work in a MOVIE? The book is HUGE. That would put the longest anime series to shame on length.
the horn from the top of the structure made the orcs being stunned ...it was sooooo loud they were holding their ears in fear and awe...thats how the charge was made...
This battle is my favorite in all of media. It set the standard for what a large on screen battle should look like.
There is one better. Waterloo 1970
@@peterbray5383 i guess I should have clarified. It's my favorite Medieval battle on screen.
This and pretty much every fight in the movie Troy
Night, but not pitch dark. _Looking at you GOT!_
@@Flippokid And formations make sense, better strategy is used, no one sends their calvary into a death charge, and no one puts trebuchets OUTSIDE THE WALL.
1:11:11 "They can't bombard the mountain" I about spit my drink out hearing that 🤣🤣 hour and half of this video it flew by. What a piece of work. Great video 🙏
1:01:40 another cool detail about Aragorn and Gimli's "back to back" moment is Aragorn has his left hand touching Gimli, always keeping track of where he is in relation to his partner and which way they're both facing. Fantastic!
I think Legolas speaking in Elvish to the other archers might be more like "They have thick armor you need to aim for weak spots" where as any other enemy the Elves fight it's a one shot one kill, they have masterfully crafted weapons, they are skilled, common orcs are literally wearing trash. It has been thousands of years since the Elves fought tough enemies on mass like that.
granted there being elves at helms deep is jackson elf bias shining since that was soley an act of men bar 1 dwarf and 1 elf
The pikes were there because the uruk hai were invading the plains of Rohan. Where every person practically fights mounted. So they may not have been there for the siege, but it allowed them to get to Helm's Deep. And long pikes could be used in formations to block some arrow fire, like how Alexander the Great's phalanx formations had the rear ranks of pikes tilted upward toward the sky to deflect arrows.
Also the archers don't have many arrows. Look at the elves on the wall and try counting. They probably wanted to wait to have maximum accuracy and damage with their limited resources. Just a plausible theory to why they held off shooting.
@ongty the archers behind the wall had a full quiver of arrows when aragorn launched the suicide charge downhill haha the one part that grates on me
@@davidknight2104so true!
@verihimthered2418 no one talks about it! It's like an I the only one who sees this lol
@@davidknight2104yeah that didn’t make sense to me before I realized that they needs bodies to plug the gap in the wall that nobody expected to materialize. You can’t plug that hole with archer fire, they need to get up close and personal. If you have played any game in the Total war series you will have encountered battles where you trust your archer in to plug holes in the walls or gates to make a chocking point where the enemy’s superior number gets negated. We see the same tactic used in Kingdom of heaven. The wall is breached and they plug the gap with swordsmen fighting Saladin to a standstill. That’s why they have to charge the gap, that’s why they still had arrows since the hole was an unexpected surprise.
Another reason for their full quivers could also be supportive fire against the orcs scaling over the battlements as they would have a better chance of picking of orcs trickling in rather than blindly firing over the wall. I’ve used this tactic lots of times in BannerLord. Some formation on the wall, reserves on the ground beneath where ladders and siege towers land. Archers gets a point blank shot at enemies trickling in, without the enemy being able to even fight back unless they have range weapons them selves. Due to the tricking the enemy’s range units never stand a chance to make any meaningful danger to my archers in the reserves!:) What’s looks like weird shit can all me made to make sense anyway
You can see that there are barrels full of arrows set up on top of the wall, such as the one immediately to the right of the orc on the left side of the frame at 22:18 and the one in the foreground at 22:59.
Well, the Deeping Wall doesn't have machicolations, meaning that the Uruks could be running for the base of the wall because it really is the safest place to be and the hardest for the archers to shoot at (and impossible for the archers behind the wall to hit). Also, the Uruk's armor is stated to be thickest around the tops of their bodies, meaning that arrows coming directly down upon them would have less effectiveness than from a side angle.
Thanks for making this, Shad!
I think the reason Aragorn commands to hold after the first premature arrow, is because he wants to stall the fight as much as possible. Every second they are not fighting is a second closer to dawn without casualties.
Wow I never thought about it that way, that actually makes sense.
It is unfortunate that the Rohan (civilian-)forces decided to 'draw' the arrow, holding up, tiring their arms & mind in a stressful moment of simple pause before first strikes. They probably could've bought, say, 5 more minutes before the charge?...
🤔...
..Maybe 10min, as Uruk-hai probably aren't too bothered by the heavy rain, whilst the Humans will likely get sick, tired, and be drained of resolve to fight long duration. ¿😅That arrow might've been a silver-lining, in the long-term?
However, by the time the old man's hand slipped, Aaannd reinforcing that Uruk-hai were in striking-distance, 🙃Aragorn might as well have commanded _(at least the Elves)_ to volley whilst the enemy were still roaring.
@@notagreen-fiend9029 Getting a lucky shot that strikes unarmored spot does not reinforce the idea of being in range, or, rather, in effective range. That and our lucky dude has massive elevation advantage over elves. In general nobody, let alone people in a situation where every shot counts, should waste ammunition and muscles on shooting at extreme ranges even if some kills can be gained this way. Orcs are inevitably going to run into bottlenecks at the wall and majority is going to be stuck there for a loooooooong while no matter when defenders start shooting. Might as well aim those shots at better targets (like crossbowmen), who you can actually target individually from closer distance.
There is also the fact that the defenders did not have large reserves of ammunition. In fact, their ammunition was very limited so they could not afford to be loosing any arrows that weren't likely to maim or kill an orc. Given the armor and distance, it would have been wasteful for them to fire right away and, like you pointed out, would have started the fight immediately when they wanted to stall.
Should have explained they wanted to lure the densely ranks orks closer, so the archers behind the wall were in range. They were going for a "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes" thing...but that was because ammo was scarce (I don't think Helms Deep was conserving anything) and the implication was you wouldn't hit at range. The old man's nervous perfect shot was the issue; his arrow should have just stuck in a shield or the ground uselessly, spurring the overconfident ork charge a moment early. I think they mostly just didn't want the defenders to appear fully dominant, even at the very start of the fight.
Probably the best battle scene ive ever seen as well as the battle of pelennor fields
50:00
Orc: "MY job is place ladder. No ladder here. Must place ladder."
Everyone having played Stronghold can probably relate. xD
"The work never ends here." ~ BFME2
"What is my purpose?"
"You place ladder"
I'm tempted to argue that it's not an Uruk ladder as it looks different to the ones the enemy is using. My thoughts are it was a conveniently placed ladder belonging to the defenders for maintaining or accessing areas of the wall.
@@KGBZukhov Ah, a fellow BFME2 appreciator. Go and try Age of the Ring mod, you'll wiz yourself with joy.
Nothing from your channel popped on my algorithm for ages now, had to manually look you up, glad I did cause this video was awesome (as most of your videos are, of course). Keep up the great work
You mean to say that when Aragorn jumps down to the Uruks, he doesn't put an Uruk on a ballista and launches it at his own wall? WTF
No because his horse is alive. You only do that if your horse is dead, silly.
@@jonchowe oh my.😳
It would make more sense since a ballista can't really damage the walls, and uruks have taken them at this point anyway
Yeah, how are we suppose to watch this, there aren't even any one-liners...
Well if he did, he'd have made sure to light the Uruk on fire first before firing, so as to COMPLETELY rip off a scene in that crummy Uwe Boll movie Dungeon Siege (seriously, Rings, of all the things to plagiarize, Uwe Boll's biggest flop...)
The Battle of Helm's Deep was great and the book is epic and done with such great details.
Helms Deep and the Siege of Minas Tirith are quite frankly the golden standard for fantasy or even historical battles put to film.
Agreed, they are amazing
I agree about Helms Deep, the battle for Minas Tirith has a lot more silly moments though. Like a cavalry charge into spears that does not have Gandalf blinding the defenders at the last moment, or the Legolas scene slaying the Mumak.
Apart from elves being at Helms Deep that shouldn't have been and ghosts being at Minas Tirith that shouldn't have been.
@@frankvandorp9732 stupidest comment I've seen in a while... if cavalry charge into spears is stupid, then by your logic all battles in the chivalry period are stupid... that is real world history kid. a heavy cavalry charge is a devastating attack
@@AC-um2mk Them changing the events from the books doesn't counter the OPs statement.
1:14:49 I think after a full night of battle, losing what looks like 90% of your force, young boys included, you might be just ready to toss in the towel.
50:30 My personal theory (a Slightly goofy one at that.)
Considering how absolutely bloodlusted the Uruk Hai are to get to grips with the defenders (They may be far more organised and better than the average Orc, but at the end of the day, a superior orc is still an orc.) there is the distinct possibility that an Uruk Hai ladder team might, MIGHT…
Have gotten a little bit too enthusiastic about the Ladder thing and got briefly confused in the melee and put it on the wrong side of the wall, as a bit of unintentional chaos and humor! 😂
That’s my theory at least.
As to why the Uruk’s Brought pikes to a siege battle?
Remember, Rohan is PRIMARILY a Calvary army, very rarely fighting on foot or in siege craft. Helm’s deep in fact is treated as their emergency refuge, a place of last resort for them to go, because this is NOT their specialty.
Saruman bred and made his army for Specifically fighting the Rohirrim in mind, their pikes for killing them off their horses.
They just weren’t fully expecting them to go into a castle siege situation.
There was plenty of warning of course, but not enough time to change their armament for the siege, so they had to make do.
A fun fact though about the Pikes themselves: According to the Lord of the Rings Encyclopedia (It’s a relatively old book with aspects of the films in mind for additional knowledge on the armaments of the various groups: it’s worth checking out and getting your hands on it.)
The pikes weren’t just for dealing with the Calvary charges, but also specifically shaped to help lift the ladders up as levers almost to get them up faster, hence why they were going up so quickly.
The book on the Warfare and tactics go into great details on the siege of Helms deep and gives insight to the tactics used.
It’s fairly old and slightly dated, but it does help and I’d recommend it to anyone if their interested.
Hope this helps, Shad. ☺️
I would think that if the orcs are trying to massacre, not just conquer, they might feel that to kill the defenders on the wall, just using the stairway is a chokepoint. So put up ladders to get many orcs to the top of the wall, which may also have a passageway into the keep.
I would have believe something much simpler. A ladder team arrived at the wall, after the breach and seeing how Uruks were already pouring in, they just put this ladder away to join the fray. Since the inner walls were way too tall for those.
@@bulldowozer5858That is actually a pretty good explanation
This video was a lot of fun. I love these movies, and was excited to see this breakdown
Love it when you do a battle autopsy on a scene/movie you like, thank you for the analysis!!
I think the reason they wait is that every second the Uruks posture and daddle is one second closer to dawn. Saruman is arrogant and vain. The Uruks have an overwhelming advantage and it is in line with Sarumans personality to want to toy with the from his perspective hopeless enemy. So firing before the Uruks initiate the siege wastes a chance to let the clock tick towards dawn and salvation.
Ah yes the Chad Helms Deep vs The Virgin Eregion
Fantastic and honest breakdown.
Possibly the Uruk-hai are armed with lengthy pikes as it is the most common weaponry they'd use when fighting Rohirrim, which are mainly on horseback.
The old man releasing the first arrow, this was done from the keep. Possibly because of its height it has a greater range, which the uruk-hai weren't aware of.
That said, not sure why Aragon told them to hold fire while they were in range - maybe because of a limited arsenal of arrows, he wants them to maximise value by taking surer shots?
Soldiers ignoring the main entrance initially feels ok because they'd be ignoring continual archer fire from the shorter side wall. You see how exposed the shield line is from the side when they do assault.
The ladder on the inside side wall, possibly was hauled over from the outside of the wall, to provide another option for uruk-hais on the wall, to scale down and join their forces in the main bridge.
It's amazing how the entire battle happens during nighttime, but you can see everything that's going on.
There's actually a funny story about someone questioning Peter Jackson about where the lighting was coming from because it wasn't realistic and he apparently told the person that it comes from the same place the music does.
You must be ROP fan...or even one of their team.😄
3-4months of filming at night and using the same light source for the whole thing does help make it easy to have a "bright" night... sadly, this art apparently died at some point since every bloody movie can't get dark battles right these days...
@@dranzergigs66 LOL, I just always assumed it came from the moon.
I think it speaks to the confidence of the film maker
a few counter-point and questions:
- The rohan kingdom is mostly a flat land so i would somewhat excuse them for not having more advance siege defenses. Most of their battle would happen in open field with a heavy preference for cavalry... and also how many time were they besieged by other where they could gain experience and developpe new technique? Our mediaval history had plenty of siege cuz we club one another for centuries. How violent was middle earth versus dark age and medieval Europe? Not just about size of the battles, but how often. If say Minas Thirit had 3 big siege and then century of peace, the place will have flaw and more basic feature than in our history.
- I think the whole "collapse the bridge" was simply not an option in the scenario because it was decided that the battle would end on a cavalry charge from the start (could also be a security matter for the filming crew... dunno). Hell for that matter, did we ever saw any kind of drawbridge in that LOTR trilogy? I think i remember the dwarf forteress having one in the other one with Smaug but that's it...
- they could have pulled the small ladder over the wall to be able get down the wall on the other side safely. With a high enough angle, they could even use those as (somewhat shaky) stair. Sure they already have stair on the wall on the defender side, but if they climb ladder installed every couple meter on one side and you only have 3 stairways on the other side... bit of a bottleneck they would want a work around.
My perception of the pikes were to counter the Rohirrim, since they would have been on horses. And at the end it would've been effective at the end when Gandalf brought the Rohirrim, the problem was Gandalf using the sun light (or casting a spell) to blind the orcs.
I think Eomer has like 3000 medium cavalry though, so that force - plus the Light / Gandalf’s illuminating spell (depending on what you think was happening there), really disrupted the Uruk battle line 😊
@@AlekTrev006 As much as anything, pikes or no, the Uruks were completely on the backfoot. Bogged down in assaulting a fortress, massively disorganised, exhausted after fighting all night long, crammed tight and unable to maneuver in a tightly packed valley, and at a huge disadvantage meeting a massed cavalry charge at the bottom of a steep slope.
No scrambled pike formation on earth would have survived at that point.
That's fair enough, but as someone else said in another comment, it would have been more effective earlier on, like if and when they were on their way to Helm's deep and the Rohhirim attacked them. The orcs would have been fresher and more organized. But the Rohhirim and Eomer were away somewhere, so that attack never happened. So the orcs showed up at Helm's deep with seemingly useless pikes and the pikes were only somewhat useful at the end but for the reasons you said, they couldn't use the pikes to defend against the horses properly.
An important element in regard to Legolas and Gimli's 'competition' is that it comes after Legolas' moment of despair.
He had a mini meltdown to Aragon about how they are all doomed, and then later apologises for it to him.
Next we see him joking with Gimli about who can kill the most enemy. It was his way of dealing with the horror and desperation of the situation and it works. (Movie lore obvs)
I think seeing their King in the open, surrounded, and nearly alone would drive the Northmen into a desperate attacking fury even more, as we see.
As Eomer bellows, "TO THE KING!!"
And it shows the horsemen are willing to crash headlong into a pike wall to reach him.
Tears welling up sort of stuff.
God bless Shad.
I love this "old times" content
Rest in Peace Bernard Hill.
A true king.
Hail the Glorious Dead!
Hail, Theoden King!
hail the victorious dead
Hail!
Fantastic autopsy of this wonderful battle. Very fair, too. Of course it's not perfect, but you drove home the point why it's vastly superior to the siege in RoP. Not that I doubted it for a second, because I watched this movie easily a hundred times. It was still great to see you pick it apart and how well it stood up to it in contrast to RoP. I 100% agree with what you pointed out. Wonderfully done.
From what I remember from the book, the reason the wall was so important to take was that the field behind it was supposed to be large enough to grow food for the garison pretty much indefinately. If you take the wall, then you might be able to win just because of dwindling supplies inside.
From a purely tactical standpoint, I think the reason you had to take the long wall first was it was massed with archers. Imagine trying to do the giant ladder thing assaulting the main keep when you had hundreds of archers raking your troops from the flank. The long wall had to go first, THEN you could move on the keep.
Looks like the orc with the special torch has a thermite type of flame, so it melts through the bomb and detonates it where a normal torch might not have (because it looks really wet in this scene)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Try to put a light on wet powder is kinda hard 😅
I always assumed this while watching, that THAT torch was specially waterproof so the orcs could guarantee an explosion
That torch *is* visually different from all the other ones they had, so odds are pretty good it was something special like that.
Since it's raining, and the orks aren't using fire arrows or other flaming projectiles at all...they really should have just ditched their torches altogether. There's sufficient ambient light, and the torches are so few already it's not like they add much to the cinematography. Would have made the big sparkler even more distinct and threatening.
@barnbwt The light is for the viewer experience. IRL, it would pitched black, and we'd barely see anything.
I went and saw this movie four times in theaters. About 90% of the reason was this battle!
the reason i feel that the arrows fly close to aragon and he doesnt flinch is to show his kingly qualities, he fully trusts those around him
Or that he's fought with elves before... or maybe even lived with them? Who knows, wish we had a book to reference
@@verihimthered2418 he knows there abilities and trusts them without hesitation, only other person who showed that in the films was elrond, it may be different in the books, but in the films it feels like its intended to show aragorn knows what those around him can do and knows how to use there abilities
I'll take a less kingly king who doesn't get hit with arrows in the back of the head unnecessarily.
@@kevinmorrice Aragorn and Elrond are also relatives, so it seems to be a family thing.
Or more likely, spending time with elves and trusting their abilities is a family thing to them.
You really think an elf that has lived for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and trained as an archer for all that time, would accidentally shoot an ally in the back of the head?
I still remember watching this movie in theaters opening weekend with my brother and my dad. Sincerely a cherished memory.
IT'S ABOUT TIME! Great video, shad your awesome.
The Lord of the Rings films never cease to amaze me. All these years later, and we still get 1.5hr video essays analyzing specific sequences from the films. Incredible testament to show just how timeless those films are and will always be!
We can all go on and on about how bad the current stuff is and in a way that is needed. But I believe that to build a better field of entertainment we need to go back and bring attention to that which was awesome. It is only then people will begin to see what it was we want. It's also just good to take the time to appreciate what once was and just enjoy it. It uplifts the spirit and better to focus on the good just as much as the bad. With that said this battle was PEAK entertainment.
Completely worth watching the whole video. It took me a couple days, but I love your battle scene autopsies so much! Helm's Deep is honestly my favorite battle in the entire trilogy, even over the siege of Gondor, it's just so well done and emotionally investing.
12:15 I always got the impression they were waiting and letting the stand-off happen because they’re just trying to buy time.
Was just about to comment this 😉
The elves could probably hold it all night, but the men just had to follow 😅
I agree fully. Aragon knew that their only chance was for Gandalf to come at dawn, so they had to survive the light. I always interpreted the urukhai standing within range and grunting an intimidation tactic to scare the men in the keep and demoralize them. And when the arrow took one down, it was go time. No more stalling
really glad you done this shad one of the best seidge battles in my opinion and that exploshion still 2 day one of the coolest exploshions ever :)
It’s refreshing to see a much better siege.
There’s even some unorthodox tactics that have some credence like the initial rush with the ladders and the ballistae.
And especially because there isn’t a moment where the attackers seem to let the defenders stand there and have a conversation.
The walls are constantly under threat, the defenders are always occupied while the besiegers try their next tactic.
In defence of Theoden’s
decision to hold the gate there is a personal reason for him to physically be among his people fighting. At this point in time Theoden is quite ashamed of himself, ashamed of how he was bewitched and how his people suffered while he languished in his hall, and of course the death of his son.
He is feeling personally responsible for the situation and feels the need to personally make amends though valorous acts. That forms the crux of his character arc from The Two Towers and Return of the King.
Theoden only really feels worthy and forgiven for his failure when he falls saving Minas Tirith. In the book it’s when he specifically personally slew the Haradrim commander, causing their part in the siege to buckle. Then his horse is shot with a dart that is implied by not stated to have come from the Witch-King, which the movie shows as the Witch-King smashing him with his Fell Beast mount.
Secondly is that he’s taking his bodyguards with him and they are likely some of the best warriors he has on hand, taking the best with him to shore up the breach.
As for that last position, while it is true that it can be held, there is only so much you can do against the heavy press of bodies that don’t care if they die, Uruk-hai are naturally a fair bit stronger than regular men. Every showing we see of Uruk-hai they are undone by tactical advantage and/or skill-at-arms, otherwise they win every other contest of brute force.
Throw enough determined armoured bodies into the gap, possibly with their own pikes and they will break the chokehold sooner or later. There’s just too much brute force for these exhausted defenders to corral into a doorway for long.
That said, they aren’t expected a cavalry charge at this point, so them being disorientated and their first instinct being to duck out of the way makes total sense. They’re expecting to push into the last defensive point, not for the best cavalry in Middle Earth to suddenly charge from within a fortress.
Before I forget, I think the majority of the surviving defenders were retreating through the passage in the caves while the King and his guard (plus Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas) were buying time for them to get a headstart either by holding the door or riding out to get their attention.
Skateboarding down helms deep while firing at Uruk hai is the definition of rule of cool
Youre not going to get me to watch Rings Of Power, even in a critique video. Im all in for this one though.
There are comparison clips in here lol so you better not watch this one either for your principle, lol.
@@Napoleonic_Swow.. what a comeback of the century 😒🙃
This battle analysis is awesome. I would like to see your take on the Battle for Minas Tirith next pls!
I wish someone showed this to whoever directed "The Long Night" 🏰
8 seasons of build up for one of the worst pay offs ever and cringe-inducing tacticts.
I argued at the time that the series would've been so much better if the Night King won and started making his way towards Kings Landing. Could've had the main characters picked up by the dragons.
With how GoT ended. It would've been the far better ending as well.
I am just astonished how much love and thought was put into movies back then. As a kid i did not actively notice much about it, but now as a grown man some of these scenes even have me tearing up a little. Maybe its time to rewatch some more of those proper old movies again. Its not like there is much new content thats worth even glancing at.
Yay, Shad battle analysis video!
I have been waiting for this review for so long and its great. Keep it up Shad
About the last door, something to consider that would add to the despair would be the possibility of more bombs like the ones that breached the outer wall then it would be just a matter of time and no formation would save you then as that explosion would either open it up too much or just outright collapse the keep (or mountain cave it's in).
I'm glad to see you doing these on _good_ scenes again. I'd love to see a fight autopsy on Aragorn's duel with Lurtz (the Uruk who shoots Boromir) at the end of the first film. It'd be much shorter but there's some really fun swordplay in that scene and I think it'd make for a fun video.
1:19:19 Stolen from comment of other youtube video:
"That enormous horn built into the tower, the Horn of Helm Hammerhand, is not just a signal. It's actually a dwarven-made WEAPON, a gift of friendship from the Dwarves.
When sounded the loud Horn echoes off the walls of the Deeping Coomb and the mountains around it, continuously bombarding anyone in the valley with reverberating sound at what I'd guess is about 140-160 decibels for as long as the blower keeps blowing, while the thick walls and placement of the Horn and the fortress baffles the sound and protects the defenders from it.
This is why none of the orcs siezed onto the riders or attacked as they charged... They were in pain and disoriented from Gimli sounding the Horn full volume and literally couldn't SEE the riders. Pay attention and you notice the Horn stopped sounding as Theoden and Aragorn entered the valley.
This is also why Gimli was giddy with glee and sprinted up the tower to be the one to sound it. The Horn of Helm Hammerhand is a one of a kind dwarven masterwork weapon that cannot be replicated because it relies on the acoustics of the valley as much as engineering, and any dwarf would shave their beard for a chance to use it!"
"I get to play the tactical nuke horn!"
I don't recall Tolkien ever describing it as an actual sonic weapon, but it did reverberate throughout the valley, giving the impression of multiple armies being arrayed to face the attackers, which greatly demoralized Saruman's army. The Huorns spooked them further. Also in the book version the defenders definitely had greater numbers left at the end, and they were sallying from more than one point (some of them were holed up in the caves at the end of the valley, outside of Hornburg). The attackers were wavering even before they noticed Gandalf and Erkenbrand (in the book Eomer was with Theoden inside the fortress instead of the elves and it was a different guy Gandalf brought in) moving in to seal their fate.
“Mom said it’s my turn on the murder horn”
Cool insight, no idea what is the source for that information, but it would provide some explanation for the events of the charge.
It's one of the moments that is better depicted in the Bakshi animated version, as it's clearer that the sounding of the horn causes the attackers to panic into a brief retreat, allowing Theoden and the others to get out of the keep and get a few good hits in before the attackers regroup. It's also better in that Gandalf's arrival with reinforcements is more of a surprise, where there's a reminder of it just before they ride out in the Jackson version which I think undercuts the tension a bit when it should seem that all is lost.
All the siege battle stuff is obviously better in Jackson's, but for me that last ride out is better done in Bakshi's.
Pikes are known to have defensive capabilities IRL.
The Macedonian Phalanx had rows of soldiers. The first lines would line the Sarissas up front while the last lines would keep them up high. This happened both to not wound themselves and to stop arrow fire since they worked like a forest.
They weren't as good as shields but did their work.
I have a theory that the reason the orcs charged the wall before the ladders was in an effort to make the archers run out of arrows to allow for a smoother transfer of the bomb. If this is the case, it would explain why they don't even plant the bomb for a while in the fight. Their entire strategy crumbles if the bombs don't make it to the wall.
I always wandered why none of the closer Uruk Hai used their torched and only now, because of your lil comment "does it need a special torch?" I realised... yes, it does! Look at his torch! The berserk has a much much different torch than all the other guys. Of course, it serves the purpose of making him more visible to the viewer, but it does seem to imply his torch is some kind of a special one... I love it! And I would've never found it out if not for this video... thanks, Shad!
I cannot imagine two polar opposite battles then Helms Deep and Eregion. Well done Mr. Shad.
This was really well done; I enjoyed it front to back. Totally valid praise and criticism!
YEEEEEEESSS! Greatest battle in cinematic history, let's frakkin gooooooo! 🙃
Great video. Tor analysis was spot on.
And now its your fault that i am in a 12 hour lord of the rings session again. Damn you Shad!
the shot where the volley of arrows fly past Aragorn is so damn good. I never get tired of it.
39:46 - Legolas was trying to get play of the game, since he knew he couldn't beat Gimli on pure numbers
Play of the game
*Overwatch music starts playing*
Dunnnnn dunn dudnndudun dunnnn dooo dundo doo
Legoas
can control his weight as we seen him walking on snow, so yes he can do surfing 🏄♂️
And iirc, it was his idea. And PJ agreed because skateboard tricks were becoming cool at that time of shooting, so it seemed both cool and relevant for the youth audience at the time
1:13:10 I'm thinking at this point the defenders were almost completely exhausted from an entire evening's worth of fighting whereas their enemies are always fresh because they just keep sending more Uruk Hai. Maybe Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli could keep fighting because they might be mildly superhuman like you said. But the rest of the defenders are basically militia as they said earlier in the film. They're not trained. They are sleep-deprived. They are constantly retreating from blow after blow to their defenses. Morale was probably low enough to warrant that desperate quote from Theoden.
36:43 The absence of a "Machicolation" scream that would be heard in every corner of midle earth was a personal attack for me.
We can recall the entire chain of events in Helm's Deep because it was a logical battlefield with a logical sequence of events involving characters in whom we are invested.
I can really only recall mud and Eregion burning in RoP.
There is actually an in lore explanation of the size of the cover: it is a dwarf built fortress, abandoned by them many many years and now used by Rohan, a not very capable (engineering wise) people, so they just maintained the fortress in as-is condition. If you see gimli he is perfectly sized for the cover
No, Helm's Deep was built by Gondor. Gimli led a colony of Dwarves into there *after* the War and they built a new Dwarven city into the Glittering Caves behind Helm's Deep.
I listened to the audiobook recently and Gimli is amazed by Helm deep. Something like "Caves! Caves!? They call them caves! Dwarfs would pay just to see this place in gold!" And then there is a conversation between him and Legolas about it and in the end they make the promise that Legolas will visit those caves if Gimli visits Fangorn. It is beautiful scene.
Beside the cinematic reason for the ladder inside the wall, it does act as a force multiplier at the top of the stair where the Uruk Hai would be the most bottle-necked and take the most casualties, defending their access point with a ladderful of infantry grunts to ensure the shock troops get to the top of the wall.
Kick back & relax. This is gonna be a great watch 🔥
My head canon RE Uruk-hai pikes is that Saruman wanted his army equipped to deal with Rohirrim cavalry in the field. He figured if Rohan bottled themselves into Helms Deep their numerical advantage would be more than enough to overcome the suboptimal weaponry.
And he was almost right, they were on the verge of winning when reinforcements arrived.
Greatest battle in Medieval Fantasy cinema. But I still cry every single time I re watched the charge of the Rohirrim at the battle of Minas Tirith
I think the pikes were intended to protect them from sorties and attacks on the march. It's better to have them on the way, so you are less vulnerable to attacks by the best cavalry of Middle Earth. Also the Uruk-Hai are known for their endurance so the extra weight wouldn't have been much of a problem. Of course bigger shields would have been useful when approaching a fortress.
One possible reason for the archers holding off was that earlier in the film Gimli commented that the Uruk-Hai''s "Armor thick and their shields broad". Him pointing this out would only make sense if it was considerably thicker and thus more durable than existing armor in Middle Earth, meaning they may have seen it as futile to shoot arrows that might not have enough power to penetrate the Uruk-Hai's armor, since from a further range they would most likely not be able to hit the neck and below the arms consistently.
Shad, if you need an idea for an April Fools video, please do a fight scene autopsy video for Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Heck yeah!
Totally. Someone on Patreon should suggest it!
To be fair there was some good moves in the Monty python scene.
Gork, the ladder loving Uruk Hai watching Aragorn knock over his ladder that he brought inside the walls with him:
D:
12:00 theres no reason why they are holding"
Oh Shad, sweet sweet Shad. You said why 5 minutes ago "They are waiting for Gandalf to arrive with backup."
And he never mentioned dawn or the third day. He just said await me at Helm's Gate.
@@NickBR57he did say this in the horse stables to Aragon, just before he left.
@@NickBR57th-cam.com/video/J5HMp0HQKa8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=DvMHrGlGV8nfPo2C
@@JustQuiteNiceGuy In the film? Maybe.
I don't recall it in any of my editions of the books (but could be wrong).
@@NickBR57 literally just linked a video where he says it.
I'm not saying it's the only content I want but Shad sat down on his own in a blazer infront of a camera and a microphone is the content I subscribed for all those years ago
OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!! This is such a nice surprise after my evening class!!
I hope you do more analysis on LOTR battles. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on them.
Hope you're doing well, Shad!!
I've really missed this series, wish we'd get some more!
I liked the part when Haldir got stabbed twice and was assumed dead, but showed up at Isengard in ROTK unharmed.... o wait 😢
Sorry friend, this is a real movie.
I would love to see your take on the Highlander sword fights.
NO SHOT YOU DID IT YOURE THE BEST I LOVE YOU I LEFT A COMMENT ON THE LAST VID ASKING FOR THIS YESSSSS! YO EVERYONE LIKE THIS VIDEO WE NEED A WHOLE SERIES OF 'DONE RIGHT FIGHTS'!
My headcannon for the higher number of pikemen was the Orcs were expecting to fight the calvary that the region is so famous for. Pikes are excellent for open field battles and great against cavalry. It was the humans that decided to retreat to a fortress, something the Orcs might not have taken into consideration.
Orcs were also generally just considered disposable and given cheap items. Pikes are likely alot cheaper to make than shields.
9:20 I always figured that was to contrast the discipline of the half-human Uruk-hai to the goblins. Goblins don't care about how many of them get killed because there's so many to replace them, and they're also *considered* replaceable - i.e. their masters don't care about the individual, they're just so many meatbags to throw into a battle at a whim. Meanwhile Uruk-hai have just enough human still in them to recognize that discipline and tactics and less death on their side is a good thing. It invokes two different fears - the "swarm of uncontrollable vermin" fear vs. the "calculating, intelligent malevolence" fear.
My thought eggsackly. The uruk hai are special
No, it's literally the opposite. Uruk Hai are far more fearless and don't care if they die. Plus Saruman put a spell on them so they wouldn't feel fear or pain. Uruks don't retreat or surrender. Regular orcs are the cowards and would be the first to run or give up.