Schrodinger’s valiant I don’t know if this valiant is choice specs or choice band or choice scarf or life orb or booster energy swords dance or expert belt calm mind or destiny bond until I watch inside the box “Iron valiant used encore” I don’t know if…
I feel like a lot of people here are missing the point of what Four Moveslot Syndrome is. It's not when a Pokémon just has lots of moves it could viably run and just has to choose. It's when a Pokémon is actively hindered by the fact that it can only run 4 moves. Raichu in RBY UU is a good example. It wants to run Thunderbolt, Surf, Thunder Wave, Hyper Beam, and Agility, but it can't run them all, and it's hurt severely by the lack of any of them. If it doesn't run Thunderbolt, it doesn't have stab. If it doesn't run Surf, it gets walled by Golem. If it doesn't run Thunder Wave, it can't spread paralysis. If it doesn't run Hyper Beam, it gets walled by special attackers. If it doesn't run Agility, it can't sweep due to speed tying with Tentacruel and Dodrio. Raichu really suffers from his inability to bring all 5 of these moves, and that's why it's Four Moveslot *Syndrome*.
I was thinking the same thing. Mentioning both sunny day and beat up on whimsicott was the most blatant example: beat up is explicitly for stamina/justified/rage fist strats, where as sunny day is general weather control -- very unlikely to viably run both on the same set
Iron Valiant is also now facing 4 moveslot syndrome in Reg G for vgc as well. Here’s a list of valuable moves Moonblast Close Combat Encore Wide Guard Protect Icy Wind Taunt Thunder Wave Light Screen Reflect Knock Off Helping Hand And all of its options for coverage
i think in reg g its best use is just miraidon support tagged with sash and it drops status + knock off and grabs encors when useful. for singles battle stadium i think its a full special life orb electric terrain sweeper using psyshock for clod, shadow ball for gholdengo and dual stab for its remaining slots
Gliscor has always suffered from this. Want to go offensive? It gets Earthquake and Dual Wingbeat as STAB, the elemental fangs for coverage, and not to mention moves like Poison Jab, Night Slash, Crabhammer, Psychic Fangs, Rock Slide, Knock Off and Scale Shot. ALL of these are viable, on top of Swords Dance. And, depending on item and ability, moves like Acrobatics, Fling, and Facade are also options. This thing is a swiss army knife once it gets going; it has answers to everything. It just can't use them all at once. Want to go defensive? If you're willing to move it around a bit between generations, it gets Roost, if not, then it still gets access to moves like Rest and Substitute. Toxic is great for stall, Protect allows it to get the most out of Poison Heal in both Singles and Doubles, U-Turn gives it a safe pivot. Play your cards right and this thing will not die. Want to go utility? It gets Tailwind, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Or, if Baton Pass is more your speed, it gets Baton Pass, alongside both Swords Dance and Agility. Want to slow down both opponents in Doubles? This thing gets Bulldoze. Want to trap someone? It gets Sand Tomb. Want to stop enemies from taking advantage of it's weaker Special Defense? Hit them with a Stuggle Bug. Need to get rid of hazards? Swap it around between generations and teach it Defog. Pretty much the only thing it *can't* do is file your taxes.
I love Gliscor, but your comment kinda proves the 4 moveslot syndrome is a good thing because otherwise Gliscor would be literal God. Or Incineroar. Basically good mons with lots of options would get better while mons with shit movesets would continue to suck ass.
Imo the biggest victim of this in singles is Breloom. It essentially needs to run spore as that’s its best move, and it’s the fastest spore user, it enables it to revenge kill very well and force a lot of switches Now it also REALLY wants Mach punch, since it has the strongest Mach punch in the game thanks to technician and it can one and two shot a surprising amount of mons in OU, and can shutdown a non-Terra’d tier king Kingambit. From there it really wants to run a strong base power move and another technician boosted move, the strong moves it can run are mainly close combat and loaded dice bullet seed, and it wants to run another technician boosted move, like rock tomb and bulldoze. Without bullet seed it’s useless against defensive mons like great tusk and Dondozo, but it also really wants close combat for grass resists like the dragons. Without rock tomb it can’t stand up to flying types, but needs bulldoze for the poison and flying types (that admittedly aren’t as prevalent in OU anymore, but still hard counter Breloom) Breloom basically would need all of these moves in OU, and while it was in OU earlier this generation it suffered from not being able to run all of these moves, making it (iirc) one of the first OU staples to fall out of the tier.
The Pokémon NEEDS more than four. It’s not just wanted extra coverage moves, it’s the Pokémon has moves to actively suffers without and it has more than four essential moves
One of the biggest victims of 4 Slot Syndrome in singles at least is definitely Great Tusk. It likes running Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin for hazard control, Close Combat for fighting STAB, Headlong Rush for ground or Earthquake on bulkier builds that don't appreciate the defense drop, Ice Spinner for the advantage in the Tusk mirror, Knock Off because it's Knock Off, Bulk Up for sweeping, Temper Flare can be used to surprise balloon Gholdengo or Corviknight, Supercell Slam if you're insane and there's always Tera Blast if you're REALLY desperate for the coverage.
@@talesofthespiritwarriorand1106 ye that would work. The second option. Like it’s a special slot that’s gone after knockoff. Like the item will be always assigned to a specific move. But once knocked off, the op of that move goes to 0 that would work
3:38 I just looked up what Decorate does and it's quite good, the effect is *Sharply raises target's Attack and Special Attack. (100% chance)* Not to the user but to the target.
i like running decorated smeragle choice specs or prankster skill swap on our favorite sweet pokemon. you can also run decorate or not, or make a offensive stacking alecreme. it also suffers from movepool syndrome too when you make it prankster.
Imo 4 slot moveset results on competitive choices, 1st and 2nd both Stabs, 3rd a suport move and 4th a direct counter move. I do agree pure-type pkm have advantage in this scenario tho, only cause of the odds of chosing 2 random offensive moves instead of one.
Genesect, Protean Greninja, Lucario, Nidoking, Deoxys, Rayquaza, Mespirit, Mew, Mewtwo, Meloetta, Dragonite, Iron Valiant, Victini, Mega Lopbunny, Jirachi, Zeraora, Pheromosa, and Marshadow are all so much fun to use when you can surprise your opponent with a rarer but still viable move like a coverage Ice Punch, Gunk Shot, Flamethrower, or priority like Extreme Speed/Water Shuriken my favorite example is Starmie. As a Kid I always needed Surf, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam. But everyone and their mom forces me to run into 4MSS over rapid spin.
Ok, I'll be honest I don't really get your point about Iron Valiant. They basically never run Spirit Break or half of the other moves you listed. 4 move slot syndrome is when you're actively hindered by not being able to fit everything you need into the four move slots you have. Iron Val is renowned for their flexibility to do just about anything and often times it's so flexible that while Encore and Destiny Bond aren't essential moves, they can be run with ease. Iron Val doesn't have 4 move slot syndrome, they have like three moves they have to run on whatever set you're using, and then they have an additional cherry on top. From what I remember Pinkacross has even stated before that you can run basically any set on Iron Val and have it be effective. That in no way sounds like 4 move slot syndrome. If anything it sounds like rather than not having enough slots for what you need instead Iron Val can run basically whatever they want. So if anything they're the antithesis of 4 move slot syndrome.
I would agree with your evaluation. Honestly, I kind of hate that this is one of my most viewed videos because looking back at it, it was actually very poorly made and not very well thought out. I think the idea for it was good, but the execution was not. I've changed my mind a lot in the last year or so that I've been making videos so I do not disagree with what you said.
I'd also say Chesnaught is a victim of 4-moveslot syndrome. Chesnaught gets: -Seed Bomb andWood Hammer for reliable Grass STAB -A plethora of STAB Fighting moves -Thunder Punch and Rock Slide for Flying-Types -Dragon Claw -Zen Headbutt -Shadow Claw -Swords Dance, Curse, or Bulk Up for boosting -Taunt, Spikes, and Reflect for utility options -Body Slam -Crunch -Earthquake -Belly Drum
the single biggest victim is by far gen 3 tyranitar though. it wants its entire movepool, gets 4 of them and is still the single best pokemon in either a gen 3 doubles or singles format.
If it's the best pokemon, it doesn't really sound like a victim. If it can use any of its 4 moves and still be the best, that's not suffering from 4 moveslot syndrome.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Great Tusk has coverage to hit EVERY type in the game for super effective with viable moves. Every Tusk set in singles consists of STAB, Rapid Spin and any move of your choice to take down any mon you particularly dislike.
Incineroar without an assult vest has a pretty good and standard set, fake out, Parting shot, flare Blitz and knock off are solid tools. Everything else is optional/depends on how you build the rest of the team, on some of my Incineroar sets i like to put snarl as another way to further nerf special attackers
Honestly this video feels more like "Pokémon with the most movepool options" than "4MSS victims". Best shown by Valiant, just because it can't run its 11 coverage types, 2 setup moves and support panel at the same time doesn't mean it has trouble doing its job. A 4MSS victim is something like Meowscarada right now, because trying to run it as a hazard setter loses you coverage that you really want or a STAB (in singles). In VGC I'd guess Cresselia is actually a great example, because Psychic STAB is so weak and Trick Room + either Protect or a recovery move is locked in on it
@@andreaseverin1346 I feel like 4 moveslot syndrome is just an extension of Pokémon with the most movepool options though - they just have so many good options that choosing just 4 makes them feel limited. Maybe we just have different definitions so I understand where you are coming from.
Mega-Blastoise definitely has it the worst than any other pokemon. The mega launcher ability alone makes you really want to run Aura Sphere Dark Pulse Dragon Pulse Heal Pulse But then you also want Water STAB Scald Mega Launcher boosted Water Pulse Muddy Water Hydro Pump Coverage moves Ice beam Flash Cannon And support moves like Fake Out Follow Me Protect
@@blueredlover1060Tbf Mega doesn't exist anymore 😂 So, it doesn't make any sense. Also, Blastoise got shell smash much later than its mega form. Just like Groudon didn't have heat crash before and only lava plume lol.
Another common victim would be Blaziken as you would want to run STAB moves which already take up half your move slots which leaves room for Protect for a free Speed Boost turn, Swords Dance to boost your power along with your speed. But if you were to run those 4 moves you’d be leaving yourself vulnerable with no coverage options such as Thunder punch, Knock Off, Uturn, Brave Bird(or Acrobatics depending on your item), Poison Jab, Shadow Claw, or Rock Slide/Stone Edge
I think Volbeat is the biggest victim of 4 moves because I actually think it would be thrive in competitive double because it has prankster and access to Tail Glow, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, Encore, Taunt, Bug Buzz, Dazzling Gleam, Thunder, Double Team, Helping Hand, Moonlight, Infestation, Confuse Ray, Counter, Swagger, Seismic Toss, Trailblaze, Acrobatics, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Baton Pass, Trick, Light Screen
Dont forget Ash Snorlax with 6 moves, and the Orange Island Drake that give uo full movesets on 4 members on the team to have a Dragonite with 10 Moves
Putting 20 random moves in a list like Leaf Blade iron valiant.. for no reason.. when it doesn’t even need or use that.. isn’t really supporting a “needs more moveslot” syndrome. And I’ve been #1 in the OU ladder before.
I feel like we have very different definitions here. Iron Valiant has one of the widest move pools and set options; saying it's a victim of 4 moveslot syndrome makes no sense. A much better example would be Wo Chien who is pretty much locked into: Leech Seed Protect (for Leech Seed) Knock Off Giga Drain/Foul Play/Sub Now that's 4 moveslot syndrome. Someone else mentioned Metagross which I think also fits. Meteor Mash/Heavy Slam (required) Bullet Punch (since it's so slow) Earthquake to hit fire and steel types that resist MM Stealth Rock/Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Explosion Now that is a lot of options for slot 4, but you need those first 3 moves unless you have idk Scizor with BP already. Support mons are often locked into 3 moves as well; let's look at Chansey and Blissey: Soft Boiled/Wish Seismic Toss/Protect Toxic/Thunder Wave (depending on the gen) Teleport/Heal Bell (when you can get it otherwise) Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Shadow Ball/Stealth Rock I am commenting this early into the video so oops if you cover these examples later.
I feel like you conflated a pokemon having a lot of viable moves with 4 move slot syndrome. Most of these mons mix and match moves depending on the set and aren't held back by missing one. This is a bit more singles focused but I think the two biggest 4MSS mons are metagross and blaziken since boosting move + stabs + one coverage move doesn't cover enough pokemon for it to truly feel comfortable
4MS is why blaziken cannot rise out to OU. It has so many coverage options, such as Thunder punch, stone miss, EQ, poison jab and many others, but it cant run them all at once, and it needs swords dance in order to actually deal damage
Yeah Blaziken is the first mon I think of when I hear 4MS, especially back in the days of XY ubers where it more or less needed to run protect as well.
Thing is in singles it's not gonna need that much coverage. It's a rather defensive mon which has mostly 2 sets : Future Sight pivot (Future Sight, Teleport/Chilling Reception depending on gen, Sludge Bomb, and either Fire coverage or recovery. And Assault Vest with Sludge Bomb, Psychic STAB from Psyshock to Future Sight, Fire coverage and Water/Ground coverage. That one runs uninvested Earthquake often as a way to deal with say, Heatran. These are cohesive sets that don't crave more moves, it's just Slowking has options. Same as Valiant or Lando-T
@@andreaseverin1346 thats standard mindset, gotta think outside the box, i used hissuian goodra to get top #67 in ou with just straight coverage no curse shanogins and it catches gliscor, lando and goldengo off gaurd. i feel slowking got the same potential
I might be biased, but I feel as if Porygon Z and Empoleon are the biggest victims of this. Porygon Z had Tri Attack, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, Agility, and Recover, and that’s only things I can think of off the top of my head. There are many other moves you can run on Porygon Z. Empoleon has Hydro Pump, Flash Canon, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Agility, Roost, Air Slash, Knock Off, and others. They have so many moves they need but are severely limited with 4 moveslots.
it sucks because even in a playthrough aegislash definitely suffers this. 2 stabs, swords dance, and then you have to pick between sacred sword for coverage or kings shield
As a doubles player, I use Whimsicott with taunt, tailwind, energy ball, and protect, and for dragonite use, extreme speed, dragon claw, dragon dance, and stomping tantrum
I just wish we got 2 seperate sets of movelslots for setup/status/utility moves & combat moves. There are so many times I come up with a build that's 5 or 6 moves that includes 2-3 utility and 2-3 combat moves. And removing even a single move makes the build fall flat. And sure, those build might be absurdly gimmicky and probably aren't geat. But it'd be nice if I could at least use it for fun when playing against friends, or even the AI.
You misconstrue versatility with 4 moveslot syndrome. For example: youre not running nasty plot and sd on the same set, or flare blitz and fire punch. Its more a matter of picking what you want it to do and going from there: Physical - sd, blitz, cc, u-turn/eq Special - plot, vacuum, fire blast, grass knot Utility - rocks, u turn, knock off, cc Once you decide what youre going for, you dont really miss the stuff you didnt pick
@@jmcbango Samurott would like to run Ceaseless Edge, Razor Shell/Aqua Cutter, Prio Aqua Jet/Sucker Punch, Knock off, Sacred Sword, Aerial Ace, Protect, Flip Turn, and Sword's Dance. Counting the / as one option, that's 9 moves, and in doubles, Ceaseless Edge and Protect are not optional, so you have two spots left for 7 moves
I think an interesting way to solve this syndrome is to allow Pokemon to hold an item which allows them to use one more move, most likely a common attacking move like Liquidation, so long as they can learn it naturally. It'd be quite a few new items, but it'd allow a more diverse moveset for Pokemon to choose from, while giving a drawback of no damage increasing item.
Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Tinkaton truly is the real thinking man's Pokemon for overcoming this problem.
Gouging Fire also suffers greatly from this it has access to many things Flare Blitz Earthquake Outrage/Dragon Claw Dragon Dance Burning Bulwark (?) Morning Sun... so many tools to make him great but very limited offense selection if utility or setup is required
You either get a pokemon with only decent stab attacks and mid status moves or too many good moves so you have to choose from only 4 of them (looking at you magnezone for the first one)
I love that they're adding more viable moves to pokemon. I always hated feeling like I had to run the same stuff eachtime i ran with a 'mon, but with all these ones with many support moves, or extra amazing coverage moves, I love mixing it up to fit my team better. Also, it becomes a guessing game for the opponent to try to figure out what kit I'm running, and I like that. Having only 1 viable way to play a 'mon is just so boring.
Gligar/Gliscor is also a victim of 4 moveslot syndrome, as the Pokémon itself could realistically be 4-5 types: ground, flying, bug, poison, and dark. It has a lot of coverage options, even if it isn’t the best Pokémon for competitive gameplay. I love the little bat scorpion guy.
One Pokémon I’ve been having a hard time picking moves for lately is my Forretress in Ultra Moon. The only reason I gave it an attacking move *at all* was because stealth rocks is an egg move for it, and a slow volt switch can come in handy for switching Malamar into boosted opponents so he can have the time he needs to do his thing before he goes down.
Funny thing is the part I disagree with is Whimsicott being a slightly worst Tailwind setter than Tornadus. While its offensive abilities are worse, it can still resist or be a threat to some common pokemons like Urshifu which it can ohko with Moonblast (which is more reliable than Bleakwind Storm), but most importantly it gets access to some other really good support moves that Tornadus doesn't have: Encore (probably the best one), Memento, Switcheroo, Leech Seed, Light Screen, Helping Hand, Charm, Stun Spore, Fake Tears, and a few more that I don't think are relevant. And it gets U-Turn as well. What Tornadus has over Whimsicott: access to all 4 weathers (Whimsicott only has Sunny Day) and offensive set up moves like Bulk Up or Nasty Plot. Tornadus cannot pivot or lock opponents on one move with a Trick/Switcheroo choice item strat, nor with Encore. It just hits harder and is good in rain teams, but I wouldn't say it is better than Whimsicott altogether. Also Whimsicott is faster which allows it to naturally outspeed Incarnate Tornadus/Thundurus, Maushold, Serperior and it can at least tie with non boosted Iron Valiant. I know these arguments do not weigh much one by one but putting them all together just kinda makes me feel like Whimsicott is the better Tailwind user as long as we're only considering them as support pokemons. And of course I don't consider Tornadus to be a bad pokemon at all, it's my staple for VGC rain teams after all.
That.....sounds absolutely awful. No offense, but that would legitimately ruin any battling, casual or competitive. You think you have your opponents moveset figured out, only to have it swap and suddenly your counter might not be a counter anymore because "whoops, you decided to switch pokemon into what you thought was a not very effective move only to have your opponent switch movesets. Oh well, better luck next time."
Arcanine might be another one. Great overall stats with great overall movepool, but making it usabel can be hard in a lot of gens bc it's hard to pick which coverage/support moves to give it.
I don't know if Iron Valiant is Choice Scarf or Choice Specs or Choice Band or Life Orb or Booster Energy with Swords Dance or Expert Belt with Calm Mind or Destiny Bond Hyper Offense Lead until I open this box ... It used Encore.
ogerpon can use ivy cudgel, spiky shield, horn leach, grassy glide, wood hammer, sword dance, leach seed, synthesis, superpower, sunny day, rain dence, follow me, play rough, u-turn, taunt, knok off, solar blade and throat chop, i you could have 4 different ogerpon in a team with not a single moove repetition
That just wouldn’t work because you’d have to come up with 1000 different unique moves with their own special combination of secondary effects and base power
@@TampaBayGator20 Not really, for most mons you could just rework existing moves. Like Fearow could just have Flying Drill Run, maybe just lower or increase its base power by 5-10 points
@@edgargaebolg9307 The point is that’ll put us up to slightly over 1,950 total moves, there’s no way we won’t end up with two that are exactly the same, which would be redundant. Plus I just find that’s way too much unnecessary work to come up with 1000 new move names
@@TampaBayGator20 That happened with Digimon and there weren't too many problems. Redundancy should be expected with so much to work. And if you think about it, it's already a thing. Roar of Time is just Dragon Hyper Beam, Dragon Ascent is just Flying Close Combat...
With cleff... worth mentioning cosmic power, stored power, flame thrower. Starmie... bolt-beam, psychic/psyshock, recover, rapid spin.... surf/scald/pump, teleport... seen starmie on weather team that use blizzard or thunder. Not the best user for light clay, but i think it's doable with recover
I ran into 4 moveslot syndrome alot with accelgor and cradily cause they get so much utility moves that I struggle to fit something that actually deals damage in their moveset (i know they don't really see much vgc use but going off meta was a fun way to play untill paradox and UBs claimed the entire meta)
Snorlax is my favorite pokemon, and while he's not very commonly used in competitive anymore, i love making him work on my teams. he always wants to run belly drum body slam (or body press) for damage, and since that doesen't activate berries anymore, i just use leftovers or something else on him for extra survivability, as belly drum leaves him weak. i also want to run rest to heal him from belly drum, but that also leaves him quite weak to nay fighting type close combats. so i wanna run snore so he can deal damage while asleep, BUT this leaves no room for protect, any coverage, encore, facade, gunk shot, or spread.
@@SupremeKingZA-RC-EVE I said body slam OR press. This comment is outdated and what I should be doing is still running the berry/gluttony combo. No snore, as he has no spark, and no rest, as I play doubles so ill just have a healer anyway. You called out the only thing that ISN'T wrong with my combo.
I'd also like to throw out maractus in there as well. Ignoring the fact for a second that they're pure grass type and don't have good enough stats to be good enough for competitive anyway. They like, have every good status move they'd ever want. -every type of healing move you could want -a better version of protect in spikey shield -cotten guard to be a physical tank -acupressure which, given enough times will just raise all your stats, or even make it one heck of a good support pokemon since you can use it on your ally -solar beam if you're doing sunny day strats -petal dance which is just grass type STAB outrage -and finally sucker punch for like, just because. Like with all these options I'm pretty sure they're like _soo close_ to being able to do _so much_ but it's like, so limiting for them like they're just a _little_ short.
I think that 4 moves spots is a good spot to be at though. It'd be way too easy to load up a sweeper like Iron Valiant with 5 attacking moves and a support move with 6 slots and have it defeat teams easily in its own.
I think a great mechanic for a future game would be to make Pokémon unlock moves by using other moves so many times. [ie charmander would need to use ember 25 times to unlock flamethrower] Then when you enter battle you get to pick moves from a list (up to 4) during each battle. This would allow Pokémon with large move pools to be more adaptive.
honestly, considering how high Iron Valiant's attack can go should you choose a choice item, or Booster Energy just setting the attack to a maximum of 512, it makes sense that they refused to give it Play Rough to make special moves worth running at all. Sure, moonblast does slightly more base damage, but its attack is 10 points higher, meaning that play rough would end up doing more damage in the long run. and even then, when you consider the laundry list of nuclear options that is its move pool, suddenly the lack of play rough seems more reasonable.
the fact you can only use 4 moves was always kind of an issue, but it became accentuated as the game became larger and more complex. it's one of the main reasons i personally gave up on building my own sets because every single strategy always felt so limited and one-dimensional. seeing a pokemon and knowing almost to a tee exactly what moves they are likely to have kind of ruins the magic of the game for me, although i do understand the game would be even less predictable with access to other moves, at least the moves they learn by level should always be available regardless... but i do understand why this is never going to happen.
This is why my idea for the next gimmick of the pokemon games are one time use moves as held items like fire blast or leaf storm on any pokemon but you can only use them once per battle. It's like z moves but more busted but then again dynamax and tera exist so
@@jmcbango I mean that more that different Pokémon can have a different amount of their can have as a maximum, like a Mewtu can have six moves but a Bidoof only three or something similar.
Bloodmoon Ursaluna suffers from this in Draft as well. Hyper Voice and Blood Moon are a standard, but to not get folded by special attacks you need Calm Mind and Protect as well. What about your Ground STAB? Ditch Blood Moon? Or Hyper Voice? What about coverage with Tera? What about priority Vacuum Wave since it's slow. Also Reshiram to an extent but it's moveslot is dictated by the generational gimmick I feel like.
Lotta Pokemon have that problem. Like Tyrantrum is a favorite of mine, and for good options you got Dragon Dance Outrage Stone Edge Earthquake Crunch Fire Fang Ice Fang Thunder Fang Poison Fang And probably a couple others I'm forgetting Feraligatr too, has boosting options, Aqua Jet, and learns strong attacks in about ten different types They ought to make a held item that lets it have a fifth move, or do something stupid rare like gold bottle caps to add a moveslot
incineroar being like the best pokemon ever and still being in this video goes to show that this video isn't very understanding of what the 4 moveslot syndrome actually refers to
not sure if you can call them "victims" when it's pokemons that have so many options they don't know what to pick. An actual victim of a 4moveslot syndrome would be a pokemon that would need a 5th moveslot to function but ends up not being able to fullfill a potentialy really strong role because it can't get everything going together and ends up just weak.
man, no shoutout to my boi raging bolt? You have calm mind, protect, thunderclap, thunderbolt, dragon pulse, Draco meteor, snarl, electroweb, dude can run any set you want. Hell, it even has heavy slam for flutter, volt switch, breaking swipe, dragon cheer, thunder wave, etc which are never run because the rest of its movepool is so insane.
It sounds like a problem, but 4 Moveslot Syndrome actually means "This pokemon has a crazy deep movepool, so good that I can't make up my mind offensively, and it's unpredictable defensively."
Incin needs a mega evolution desperately it's very weak we somehow gotta compensate for it either not one shotting everything in sight or lowering every possible stat there is to it's minimum
And this is only the CHOOSING player's perspective. Imagine being the opponent and not knowing what set of Iron Valiant your opponent is using.
Listen, You do not know true fear until your Kingambit is in against a unrevealed Iron Valiant set.
Schrodinger’s valiant
I don’t know if this valiant is choice specs or choice band or choice scarf or life orb or booster energy swords dance or expert belt calm mind or destiny bond until I watch inside the box
“Iron valiant used encore”
I don’t know if…
Me burning the val just for it to click Moonblast and sweep me on the spot
this is why open team sheets
That is called a skill issue in any game. If a player is bad, then they lose more. EZ.
it's so wholesome that you shoutout the small youtuber wolfey
Real youtubist*
Sorry but I hate wolfey
@@duckymomo7935who asked
@@duckymomo7935 ratio littlest of little bros
@@duckymomo7935Verlisify, is that you?
Feels very weird to call incineroar a victim of anything after what he did to my family
What the hell did the virtual anthropomorphic cheeto do to your bloodline?😨
@@HeavyWalrus2 He gave them a Parting Shot 😔
🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨@@FlareBlitzBanana
@@FlareBlitzBanana🤨📸
@@MayHugger I didn't mean it like that bruh 💀
I feel like a lot of people here are missing the point of what Four Moveslot Syndrome is. It's not when a Pokémon just has lots of moves it could viably run and just has to choose. It's when a Pokémon is actively hindered by the fact that it can only run 4 moves. Raichu in RBY UU is a good example. It wants to run Thunderbolt, Surf, Thunder Wave, Hyper Beam, and Agility, but it can't run them all, and it's hurt severely by the lack of any of them. If it doesn't run Thunderbolt, it doesn't have stab. If it doesn't run Surf, it gets walled by Golem. If it doesn't run Thunder Wave, it can't spread paralysis. If it doesn't run Hyper Beam, it gets walled by special attackers. If it doesn't run Agility, it can't sweep due to speed tying with Tentacruel and Dodrio. Raichu really suffers from his inability to bring all 5 of these moves, and that's why it's Four Moveslot *Syndrome*.
I was today years old when I learned that:
1. Tentacruel is THAT fast
2. Dodrio is THAT slow
This comment is better than the video itself
@@pezygRaichu and Dodrio both got their speed buffed in Gen 6. Before, they were all base 100
Indeed @@ImaniGermano
I was thinking the same thing. Mentioning both sunny day and beat up on whimsicott was the most blatant example: beat up is explicitly for stamina/justified/rage fist strats, where as sunny day is general weather control -- very unlikely to viably run both on the same set
In doubles, it very commonly becomes a 3-moveslot syndrome due to the overall immense importance of Protect.
Unless Urshifu is legal, in which case protect doesn't do anything half the time anyway
Iron Valiant is also now facing 4 moveslot syndrome in Reg G for vgc as well. Here’s a list of valuable moves
Moonblast
Close Combat
Encore
Wide Guard
Protect
Icy Wind
Taunt
Thunder Wave
Light Screen
Reflect
Knock Off
Helping Hand
And all of its options for coverage
tbf Wide guard and fein are obbligatory to justify Valiant
so Moonblast and whatever is ok
Suffering from too many moves lol
Also Expanding Force
i think in reg g its best use is just miraidon support tagged with sash and it drops status + knock off and grabs encors when useful. for singles battle stadium i think its a full special life orb electric terrain sweeper using psyshock for clod, shadow ball for gholdengo and dual stab for its remaining slots
Quick guard too
Gliscor has always suffered from this.
Want to go offensive? It gets Earthquake and Dual Wingbeat as STAB, the elemental fangs for coverage, and not to mention moves like Poison Jab, Night Slash, Crabhammer, Psychic Fangs, Rock Slide, Knock Off and Scale Shot. ALL of these are viable, on top of Swords Dance. And, depending on item and ability, moves like Acrobatics, Fling, and Facade are also options. This thing is a swiss army knife once it gets going; it has answers to everything. It just can't use them all at once.
Want to go defensive? If you're willing to move it around a bit between generations, it gets Roost, if not, then it still gets access to moves like Rest and Substitute. Toxic is great for stall, Protect allows it to get the most out of Poison Heal in both Singles and Doubles, U-Turn gives it a safe pivot. Play your cards right and this thing will not die.
Want to go utility? It gets Tailwind, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Or, if Baton Pass is more your speed, it gets Baton Pass, alongside both Swords Dance and Agility. Want to slow down both opponents in Doubles? This thing gets Bulldoze. Want to trap someone? It gets Sand Tomb. Want to stop enemies from taking advantage of it's weaker Special Defense? Hit them with a Stuggle Bug. Need to get rid of hazards? Swap it around between generations and teach it Defog.
Pretty much the only thing it *can't* do is file your taxes.
I love Gliscor, but your comment kinda proves the 4 moveslot syndrome is a good thing because otherwise Gliscor would be literal God. Or Incineroar. Basically good mons with lots of options would get better while mons with shit movesets would continue to suck ass.
My gamer, Gliscor does not get Crab Hammer, Scale Shot or Struggle Bug.
@@bananaspice1967Yes it does
@@bananaspice1967 yes it does
@@PaBlo-jk4hv I checked, u rite. Shit
Imo the biggest victim of this in singles is Breloom.
It essentially needs to run spore as that’s its best move, and it’s the fastest spore user, it enables it to revenge kill very well and force a lot of switches
Now it also REALLY wants Mach punch, since it has the strongest Mach punch in the game thanks to technician and it can one and two shot a surprising amount of mons in OU, and can shutdown a non-Terra’d tier king Kingambit.
From there it really wants to run a strong base power move and another technician boosted move, the strong moves it can run are mainly close combat and loaded dice bullet seed, and it wants to run another technician boosted move, like rock tomb and bulldoze.
Without bullet seed it’s useless against defensive mons like great tusk and Dondozo, but it also really wants close combat for grass resists like the dragons. Without rock tomb it can’t stand up to flying types, but needs bulldoze for the poison and flying types (that admittedly aren’t as prevalent in OU anymore, but still hard counter Breloom)
Breloom basically would need all of these moves in OU, and while it was in OU earlier this generation it suffered from not being able to run all of these moves, making it (iirc) one of the first OU staples to fall out of the tier.
it's a bit ironic that mew while having a potential endless movelist, does not seem as affected by '4 move syndrome'
Because almost none of these mons have 4MSS in this video. They just have deep move pools and conflated the two.
@joshalbert5904 what's the difference between having four moveslot syndrome and just having a large move pool?
The Pokémon NEEDS more than four. It’s not just wanted extra coverage moves, it’s the Pokémon has moves to actively suffers without and it has more than four essential moves
One of the biggest victims of 4 Slot Syndrome in singles at least is definitely Great Tusk.
It likes running Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin for hazard control, Close Combat for fighting STAB, Headlong Rush for ground or Earthquake on bulkier builds that don't appreciate the defense drop, Ice Spinner for the advantage in the Tusk mirror, Knock Off because it's Knock Off, Bulk Up for sweeping, Temper Flare can be used to surprise balloon Gholdengo or Corviknight, Supercell Slam if you're insane and there's always Tera Blast if you're REALLY desperate for the coverage.
Wouldn’t it be so cool if gamefreak made an item that when held would allow Pokémon to have a 5th move slot?
That would either have to be immune to knock off or you just have a move deleted when it's removed
If you hold the tm to a move you can use it
@@Xx_GobbaGamer69_xX that’s a sick idea of it
@@talesofthespiritwarriorand1106 ye that would work. The second option. Like it’s a special slot that’s gone after knockoff. Like the item will be always assigned to a specific move. But once knocked off, the op of that move goes to 0 that would work
The rich would get richer.
Just like eviolite is only used on Pokemon that were already good before getting an evolution
3:38 I just looked up what Decorate does and it's quite good, the effect is *Sharply raises target's Attack and Special Attack. (100% chance)* Not to the user but to the target.
Iron valiant booster energy speeds up, protect and alcremie uses decorate on it
i like running decorated smeragle choice specs or prankster skill swap on our favorite sweet pokemon. you can also run decorate or not, or make a offensive stacking alecreme. it also suffers from movepool syndrome too when you make it prankster.
@@omnipotence731 giving prankster to alcremie? I always use it defensive offensive, acid armor, calm mind, stored power and draining kiss
Imo 4 slot moveset results on competitive choices, 1st and 2nd both Stabs, 3rd a suport move and 4th a direct counter move.
I do agree pure-type pkm have advantage in this scenario tho, only cause of the odds of chosing 2 random offensive moves instead of one.
Genesect, Protean Greninja, Lucario, Nidoking, Deoxys, Rayquaza, Mespirit, Mew, Mewtwo, Meloetta, Dragonite, Iron Valiant, Victini, Mega Lopbunny, Jirachi, Zeraora, Pheromosa, and Marshadow are all so much fun to use when you can surprise your opponent with a rarer but still viable move like a coverage Ice Punch, Gunk Shot, Flamethrower, or priority like Extreme Speed/Water Shuriken
my favorite example is Starmie. As a Kid I always needed Surf, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam. But everyone and their mom forces me to run into 4MSS over rapid spin.
Ok, I'll be honest I don't really get your point about Iron Valiant. They basically never run Spirit Break or half of the other moves you listed. 4 move slot syndrome is when you're actively hindered by not being able to fit everything you need into the four move slots you have. Iron Val is renowned for their flexibility to do just about anything and often times it's so flexible that while Encore and Destiny Bond aren't essential moves, they can be run with ease. Iron Val doesn't have 4 move slot syndrome, they have like three moves they have to run on whatever set you're using, and then they have an additional cherry on top.
From what I remember Pinkacross has even stated before that you can run basically any set on Iron Val and have it be effective. That in no way sounds like 4 move slot syndrome. If anything it sounds like rather than not having enough slots for what you need instead Iron Val can run basically whatever they want. So if anything they're the antithesis of 4 move slot syndrome.
I would agree with your evaluation. Honestly, I kind of hate that this is one of my most viewed videos because looking back at it, it was actually very poorly made and not very well thought out. I think the idea for it was good, but the execution was not. I've changed my mind a lot in the last year or so that I've been making videos so I do not disagree with what you said.
I'd also say Chesnaught is a victim of 4-moveslot syndrome.
Chesnaught gets:
-Seed Bomb andWood Hammer for reliable Grass STAB
-A plethora of STAB Fighting moves
-Thunder Punch and Rock Slide for Flying-Types
-Dragon Claw
-Zen Headbutt
-Shadow Claw
-Swords Dance, Curse, or Bulk Up for boosting
-Taunt, Spikes, and Reflect for utility options
-Body Slam
-Crunch
-Earthquake
-Belly Drum
Thank you for talking about Iron Valiant's big ass moveset. I ran a full Iron team in Showdown and I've made at least 3 kinds of Valiant builds.
2:56 "Babe, wake up. New PokéRap just dropped."
the single biggest victim is by far gen 3 tyranitar though. it wants its entire movepool, gets 4 of them and is still the single best pokemon in either a gen 3 doubles or singles format.
being the best one means it's not a victim of the syndrome though...
If it's the best pokemon, it doesn't really sound like a victim. If it can use any of its 4 moves and still be the best, that's not suffering from 4 moveslot syndrome.
@@HappyIsaac0420Still gets one shot with a mach punch from breloom though 😂
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Great Tusk has coverage to hit EVERY type in the game for super effective with viable moves. Every Tusk set in singles consists of STAB, Rapid Spin and any move of your choice to take down any mon you particularly dislike.
Imagine gen 10 gimmick will be having 8 moves to pick from instead of 4
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Incineroar without an assult vest has a pretty good and standard set, fake out, Parting shot, flare Blitz and knock off are solid tools. Everything else is optional/depends on how you build the rest of the team, on some of my Incineroar sets i like to put snarl as another way to further nerf special attackers
Honestly this video feels more like "Pokémon with the most movepool options" than "4MSS victims". Best shown by Valiant, just because it can't run its 11 coverage types, 2 setup moves and support panel at the same time doesn't mean it has trouble doing its job. A 4MSS victim is something like Meowscarada right now, because trying to run it as a hazard setter loses you coverage that you really want or a STAB (in singles). In VGC I'd guess Cresselia is actually a great example, because Psychic STAB is so weak and Trick Room + either Protect or a recovery move is locked in on it
@@andreaseverin1346 I feel like 4 moveslot syndrome is just an extension of Pokémon with the most movepool options though - they just have so many good options that choosing just 4 makes them feel limited. Maybe we just have different definitions so I understand where you are coming from.
@x_bell1142 could very much be a semantics issue, but excellent video!
@@x_bell1142why no cotton guard whimsicott?
Mega-Blastoise definitely has it the worst than any other pokemon. The mega launcher ability alone makes you really want to run
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
Dragon Pulse
Heal Pulse
But then you also want Water STAB
Scald
Mega Launcher boosted Water Pulse
Muddy Water
Hydro Pump
Coverage moves
Ice beam
Flash Cannon
And support moves like
Fake Out
Follow Me
Protect
That's forgetting the fact that it gets Shell Smash to set up with.
@@blueredlover1060Tbf Mega doesn't exist anymore 😂
So, it doesn't make any sense. Also, Blastoise got shell smash much later than its mega form. Just like Groudon didn't have heat crash before and only lava plume lol.
@@Blue-ik8ij I know, but it's something that some of my draft leagues still allow megas and that's yet another thing to try to fit.
Another common victim would be Blaziken as you would want to run STAB moves which already take up half your move slots which leaves room for Protect for a free Speed Boost turn, Swords Dance to boost your power along with your speed. But if you were to run those 4 moves you’d be leaving yourself vulnerable with no coverage options such as Thunder punch, Knock Off, Uturn, Brave Bird(or Acrobatics depending on your item), Poison Jab, Shadow Claw, or Rock Slide/Stone Edge
I think Volbeat is the biggest victim of 4 moves because I actually think it would be thrive in competitive double because it has prankster and access to Tail Glow, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, Encore, Taunt, Bug Buzz, Dazzling Gleam, Thunder, Double Team, Helping Hand, Moonlight, Infestation, Confuse Ray, Counter, Swagger, Seismic Toss, Trailblaze, Acrobatics, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Baton Pass, Trick, Light Screen
It's sad that the only 5 move users are to this day partner Pikachu and Eevee
Dont forget Ash Snorlax with 6 moves, and the Orange Island Drake that give uo full movesets on 4 members on the team to have a Dragonite with 10 Moves
@@pedrorodrigosilvacaldas7703 They are anime exclusive and have more than 5 so I didn't count them
@@olafmikoaj3121 i know, i just wanted to be tecnical(And it could be a mechanic for future gens)
Putting 20 random moves in a list like Leaf Blade iron valiant.. for no reason.. when it doesn’t even need or use that.. isn’t really supporting a “needs more moveslot” syndrome. And I’ve been #1 in the OU ladder before.
Guys, look, we have a professional over here.
I feel like we have very different definitions here.
Iron Valiant has one of the widest move pools and set options; saying it's a victim of 4 moveslot syndrome makes no sense.
A much better example would be Wo Chien who is pretty much locked into:
Leech Seed
Protect (for Leech Seed)
Knock Off
Giga Drain/Foul Play/Sub
Now that's 4 moveslot syndrome.
Someone else mentioned Metagross which I think also fits.
Meteor Mash/Heavy Slam (required)
Bullet Punch (since it's so slow)
Earthquake to hit fire and steel types that resist MM
Stealth Rock/Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Explosion
Now that is a lot of options for slot 4, but you need those first 3 moves unless you have idk Scizor with BP already.
Support mons are often locked into 3 moves as well; let's look at Chansey and Blissey:
Soft Boiled/Wish
Seismic Toss/Protect
Toxic/Thunder Wave (depending on the gen)
Teleport/Heal Bell (when you can get it otherwise) Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Shadow Ball/Stealth Rock
I am commenting this early into the video so oops if you cover these examples later.
You misunderstand what the video is saying, he is saying that certain mons have too many moves, not too few
@@Enjinercraft That's not 4 move slot syndrome. Title the video something else then.
I feel like you conflated a pokemon having a lot of viable moves with 4 move slot syndrome. Most of these mons mix and match moves depending on the set and aren't held back by missing one.
This is a bit more singles focused but I think the two biggest 4MSS mons are metagross and blaziken since boosting move + stabs + one coverage move doesn't cover enough pokemon for it to truly feel comfortable
Imagine GF creates a pokemon with an ability which allows it to have one supplementary move. It would be the 5 Moveslot Syndrome
and then this pokemon can learn only it's stab moves and no good suport moves...
@@AriehAnkri Imagine it being good
4MS is why blaziken cannot rise out to OU. It has so many coverage options, such as Thunder punch, stone miss, EQ, poison jab and many others, but it cant run them all at once, and it needs swords dance in order to actually deal damage
Yeah Blaziken is the first mon I think of when I hear 4MS, especially back in the days of XY ubers where it more or less needed to run protect as well.
i think slowking galar is also a victim, it gets so much good coverage, status and a pivot move.
Thing is in singles it's not gonna need that much coverage. It's a rather defensive mon which has mostly 2 sets :
Future Sight pivot (Future Sight, Teleport/Chilling Reception depending on gen, Sludge Bomb, and either Fire coverage or recovery.
And Assault Vest with Sludge Bomb, Psychic STAB from Psyshock to Future Sight, Fire coverage and Water/Ground coverage. That one runs uninvested Earthquake often as a way to deal with say, Heatran.
These are cohesive sets that don't crave more moves, it's just Slowking has options. Same as Valiant or Lando-T
@@andreaseverin1346 thats standard mindset, gotta think outside the box, i used hissuian goodra to get top #67 in ou with just straight coverage no curse shanogins and it catches gliscor, lando and goldengo off gaurd. i feel slowking got the same potential
I might be biased, but I feel as if Porygon Z and Empoleon are the biggest victims of this. Porygon Z had Tri Attack, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, Agility, and Recover, and that’s only things I can think of off the top of my head. There are many other moves you can run on Porygon Z. Empoleon has Hydro Pump, Flash Canon, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Agility, Roost, Air Slash, Knock Off, and others. They have so many moves they need but are severely limited with 4 moveslots.
it sucks because even in a playthrough aegislash definitely suffers this. 2 stabs, swords dance, and then you have to pick between sacred sword for coverage or kings shield
As a doubles player, I use Whimsicott with taunt, tailwind, energy ball, and protect, and for dragonite use, extreme speed, dragon claw, dragon dance, and stomping tantrum
I just wish we got 2 seperate sets of movelslots for setup/status/utility moves & combat moves.
There are so many times I come up with a build that's 5 or 6 moves that includes 2-3 utility and 2-3 combat moves. And removing even a single move makes the build fall flat.
And sure, those build might be absurdly gimmicky and probably aren't geat. But it'd be nice if I could at least use it for fun when playing against friends, or even the AI.
Toxapex suffers from only having 4 slots as haze recover and scald are mustsbut it would love to either run toxic spikes or protect to stall.
It really depends on the format - toxic spikes are far better for singles, protect is far better for doubles.
If only whimsicott got pollen puff, i feel that would give it a reason to be used instead of tornadus.
One time I had a dream that Whimsicott got Spore and Rage Powder but it didn't usually run them because its 4MSS was that bad
I was under the impression that 4 moveslot syndrome was "it has a good movepool, but only has 1 real viable set, so only ever uses those 4 moves"
how you didn't talk about infernape?
Flare blitz, Fire Punch, Raging Fury, close combat, drain punch, mach punch, u turn, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Fake out, Knock Off, Flame Charge, Feint
Flamethrower, Overheat, Aura Sphere, focus blast, vacuum wave, grass knot, Tera Blast
Nasty Plot, Sword Dance, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Will o Wisp, Slack Off, Switcheroo, Encore
You misconstrue versatility with 4 moveslot syndrome. For example: youre not running nasty plot and sd on the same set, or flare blitz and fire punch. Its more a matter of picking what you want it to do and going from there:
Physical - sd, blitz, cc, u-turn/eq
Special - plot, vacuum, fire blast, grass knot
Utility - rocks, u turn, knock off, cc
Once you decide what youre going for, you dont really miss the stuff you didnt pick
I'm kinda suprised Hisuian Samurott isn't mentioned, he would be so much better if he were able to run all the moves he actually wants.
Like what? What do you need besides ceaseless, water stab, and sacred sword? Only think i could see would be the argument of flip turn vs aqua jet
@@jmcbango Samurott would like to run Ceaseless Edge, Razor Shell/Aqua Cutter, Prio Aqua Jet/Sucker Punch, Knock off, Sacred Sword, Aerial Ace, Protect, Flip Turn, and Sword's Dance.
Counting the / as one option, that's 9 moves, and in doubles, Ceaseless Edge and Protect are not optional, so you have two spots left for 7 moves
I think an interesting way to solve this syndrome is to allow Pokemon to hold an item which allows them to use one more move, most likely a common attacking move like Liquidation, so long as they can learn it naturally. It'd be quite a few new items, but it'd allow a more diverse moveset for Pokemon to choose from, while giving a drawback of no damage increasing item.
True
Appletun would run and find at least some use for nearly every move in its move list if it could.
Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Fuck it, we Gigaton Hammer. Tinkaton truly is the real thinking man's Pokemon for overcoming this problem.
Gouging Fire also suffers greatly from this
it has access to many things
Flare Blitz
Earthquake
Outrage/Dragon Claw
Dragon Dance
Burning Bulwark (?)
Morning Sun...
so many tools to make him great but very limited offense selection if utility or setup is required
Burning Balwark, Breaking Swipe, Heat Crash and Howl is the standard movepool, covers pretty much everything here.
It’s always better to have too many great moves instead of too few. It just means you have to decide what place that Mon has on your team.
My friends call this the "suffering from success" syndrome.
You either get a pokemon with only decent stab attacks and mid status moves or too many good moves so you have to choose from only 4 of them (looking at you magnezone for the first one)
I love that they're adding more viable moves to pokemon. I always hated feeling like I had to run the same stuff eachtime i ran with a 'mon, but with all these ones with many support moves, or extra amazing coverage moves, I love mixing it up to fit my team better.
Also, it becomes a guessing game for the opponent to try to figure out what kit I'm running, and I like that.
Having only 1 viable way to play a 'mon is just so boring.
Gligar/Gliscor is also a victim of 4 moveslot syndrome, as the Pokémon itself could realistically be 4-5 types: ground, flying, bug, poison, and dark. It has a lot of coverage options, even if it isn’t the best Pokémon for competitive gameplay. I love the little bat scorpion guy.
One Pokémon I’ve been having a hard time picking moves for lately is my Forretress in Ultra Moon. The only reason I gave it an attacking move *at all* was because stealth rocks is an egg move for it, and a slow volt switch can come in handy for switching Malamar into boosted opponents so he can have the time he needs to do his thing before he goes down.
Funny thing is the part I disagree with is Whimsicott being a slightly worst Tailwind setter than Tornadus. While its offensive abilities are worse, it can still resist or be a threat to some common pokemons like Urshifu which it can ohko with Moonblast (which is more reliable than Bleakwind Storm), but most importantly it gets access to some other really good support moves that Tornadus doesn't have: Encore (probably the best one), Memento, Switcheroo, Leech Seed, Light Screen, Helping Hand, Charm, Stun Spore, Fake Tears, and a few more that I don't think are relevant. And it gets U-Turn as well. What Tornadus has over Whimsicott: access to all 4 weathers (Whimsicott only has Sunny Day) and offensive set up moves like Bulk Up or Nasty Plot. Tornadus cannot pivot or lock opponents on one move with a Trick/Switcheroo choice item strat, nor with Encore. It just hits harder and is good in rain teams, but I wouldn't say it is better than Whimsicott altogether. Also Whimsicott is faster which allows it to naturally outspeed Incarnate Tornadus/Thundurus, Maushold, Serperior and it can at least tie with non boosted Iron Valiant. I know these arguments do not weigh much one by one but putting them all together just kinda makes me feel like Whimsicott is the better Tailwind user as long as we're only considering them as support pokemons. And of course I don't consider Tornadus to be a bad pokemon at all, it's my staple for VGC rain teams after all.
You said memento twice
@@Ezecool-3105 oops my b I fixed it
It makes 100% sense that a luchador mon has access to helping hand tho
One of the things I wish was if you could save sets of four moves and spend a turn switching move sets.
That.....sounds absolutely awful. No offense, but that would legitimately ruin any battling, casual or competitive. You think you have your opponents moveset figured out, only to have it swap and suddenly your counter might not be a counter anymore because "whoops, you decided to switch pokemon into what you thought was a not very effective move only to have your opponent switch movesets. Oh well, better luck next time."
@HappyIsaac0420 well that's just another moveset you need to learn.
Pokemon battles fundamentally start as guessing games after all.
Arcanine might be another one. Great overall stats with great overall movepool, but making it usabel can be hard in a lot of gens bc it's hard to pick which coverage/support moves to give it.
I don't know if Iron Valiant is Choice Scarf or Choice Specs or Choice Band or Life Orb or Booster Energy with Swords Dance or Expert Belt with Calm Mind or Destiny Bond Hyper Offense Lead until I open this box
... It used Encore.
He just be pokerapping all the moves a single pokemon can use
ogerpon can use ivy cudgel, spiky shield, horn leach, grassy glide, wood hammer, sword dance, leach seed, synthesis, superpower, sunny day, rain dence, follow me, play rough, u-turn, taunt, knok off, solar blade and throat chop, i you could have 4 different ogerpon in a team with not a single moove repetition
Pokemon should have a signature move + 4 learned moves.
This is a thing in many Digimon games (if not all) and I love it
That just wouldn’t work because you’d have to come up with 1000 different unique moves with their own special combination of secondary effects and base power
@@TampaBayGator20 Not really, for most mons you could just rework existing moves. Like Fearow could just have Flying Drill Run, maybe just lower or increase its base power by 5-10 points
@@edgargaebolg9307 The point is that’ll put us up to slightly over 1,950 total moves, there’s no way we won’t end up with two that are exactly the same, which would be redundant. Plus I just find that’s way too much unnecessary work to come up with 1000 new move names
@@TampaBayGator20 That happened with Digimon and there weren't too many problems. Redundancy should be expected with so much to work. And if you think about it, it's already a thing. Roar of Time is just Dragon Hyper Beam, Dragon Ascent is just Flying Close Combat...
Live adv gengar reaction, the mon that has like 12 slashes on one set on its smogon analysis because it has that many alternative options
Mewtwo has struggled with the 4 moveslot syndrome ever since its inception
I wonder if Gliscor is here. I would love to run substitute, protect, roost, toxic, swords dance, earthquake, knock off, acrobatics... and fling
Ideally, all pokemon would have "four move syndrome" to force you to make hard choices.
I never thought there would be more pokemon than moves
With cleff... worth mentioning cosmic power, stored power, flame thrower.
Starmie... bolt-beam, psychic/psyshock, recover, rapid spin.... surf/scald/pump, teleport... seen starmie on weather team that use blizzard or thunder. Not the best user for light clay, but i think it's doable with recover
Incinenaroar is so broken even to it's weakened by this it is weakened due to having too many moves available not due to hard times choosing moves.
I ran into 4 moveslot syndrome alot with accelgor and cradily cause they get so much utility moves that I struggle to fit something that actually deals damage in their moveset
(i know they don't really see much vgc use but going off meta was a fun way to play untill paradox and UBs claimed the entire meta)
Kingambit in nat dex. It wants sucker, knock, pursuit, iron head, sd and low kick
True
farigiraf getting psychic, psychic noise, hyper voice, trick room, helping hand, protect, imprison and foul play is neat but annoying for doubles
Yep
Snorlax is my favorite pokemon, and while he's not very commonly used in competitive anymore, i love making him work on my teams.
he always wants to run belly drum body slam (or body press) for damage, and since that doesen't activate berries anymore, i just use leftovers or something else on him for extra survivability, as belly drum leaves him weak. i also want to run rest to heal him from belly drum, but that also leaves him quite weak to nay fighting type close combats. so i wanna run snore so he can deal damage while asleep, BUT this leaves no room for protect, any coverage, encore, facade, gunk shot, or spread.
Stop running body press it scales in power based on defense and Snorlax’s defense stat is only 65
@@SupremeKingZA-RC-EVE I said body slam OR press. This comment is outdated and what I should be doing is still running the berry/gluttony combo.
No snore, as he has no spark, and no rest, as I play doubles so ill just have a healer anyway.
You called out the only thing that ISN'T wrong with my combo.
@@Skivv5 It should’ve never been used to begin with
@@SupremeKingZA-RC-EVE yeah ok but i usually didn't use it anyway cuz STAB.
@@Skivv5 yeah overall it’s not a bad strategy when I use snorlax I usually don’t use belly drum but if you can get it off safety Snorlax is a monster
I'd also like to throw out maractus in there as well.
Ignoring the fact for a second that they're pure grass type and don't have good enough stats to be good enough for competitive anyway. They like, have every good status move they'd ever want.
-every type of healing move you could want
-a better version of protect in spikey shield
-cotten guard to be a physical tank
-acupressure which, given enough times will just raise all your stats, or even make it one heck of a good support pokemon since you can use it on your ally
-solar beam if you're doing sunny day strats
-petal dance which is just grass type STAB outrage
-and finally sucker punch for like, just because.
Like with all these options I'm pretty sure they're like _soo close_ to being able to do _so much_ but it's like, so limiting for them like they're just a _little_ short.
Grimsnarl basically has 2 move slots because the main reason you run use him is to set up both screens.
I'm having a similar issue in my run of Ultra Sun, Sigyliph is so versitile that i switch its moveset quite often
I think that 4 moves spots is a good spot to be at though. It'd be way too easy to load up a sweeper like Iron Valiant with 5 attacking moves and a support move with 6 slots and have it defeat teams easily in its own.
I think a great mechanic for a future game would be to make Pokémon unlock moves by using other moves so many times. [ie charmander would need to use ember 25 times to unlock flamethrower] Then when you enter battle you get to pick moves from a list (up to 4) during each battle. This would allow Pokémon with large move pools to be more adaptive.
honestly, considering how high Iron Valiant's attack can go should you choose a choice item, or Booster Energy just setting the attack to a maximum of 512, it makes sense that they refused to give it Play Rough to make special moves worth running at all.
Sure, moonblast does slightly more base damage, but its attack is 10 points higher, meaning that play rough would end up doing more damage in the long run. and even then, when you consider the laundry list of nuclear options that is its move pool, suddenly the lack of play rough seems more reasonable.
the fact you can only use 4 moves was always kind of an issue, but it became accentuated as the game became larger and more complex.
it's one of the main reasons i personally gave up on building my own sets because every single strategy always felt so limited and one-dimensional. seeing a pokemon and knowing almost to a tee exactly what moves they are likely to have kind of ruins the magic of the game for me, although i do understand the game would be even less predictable with access to other moves, at least the moves they learn by level should always be available regardless... but i do understand why this is never going to happen.
This is why my idea for the next gimmick of the pokemon games are one time use moves as held items like fire blast or leaf storm on any pokemon but you can only use them once per battle. It's like z moves but more busted but then again dynamax and tera exist so
I would be cool if they introduced some mechanic where Pokemon can have a different amount of moves
They already have that its called the move deleter /s
@@jmcbango I mean that more that different Pokémon can have a different amount of their can have as a maximum, like a Mewtu can have six moves but a Bidoof only three or something similar.
Bloodmoon Ursaluna suffers from this in Draft as well.
Hyper Voice and Blood Moon are a standard, but to not get folded by special attacks you need Calm Mind and Protect as well.
What about your Ground STAB? Ditch Blood Moon? Or Hyper Voice? What about coverage with Tera? What about priority Vacuum Wave since it's slow.
Also Reshiram to an extent but it's moveslot is dictated by the generational gimmick I feel like.
Dual Wingbeat not being there is really hurting me for dragonite
Instruct on Incineroar would go hard
Lotta Pokemon have that problem. Like Tyrantrum is a favorite of mine, and for good options you got
Dragon Dance
Outrage
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Crunch
Fire Fang
Ice Fang
Thunder Fang
Poison Fang
And probably a couple others I'm forgetting
Feraligatr too, has boosting options, Aqua Jet, and learns strong attacks in about ten different types
They ought to make a held item that lets it have a fifth move, or do something stupid rare like gold bottle caps to add a moveslot
incineroar being like the best pokemon ever and still being in this video goes to show that this video isn't very understanding of what the 4 moveslot syndrome actually refers to
I’ve never really understood this. Like how could it be a bad thing for a pokemon to have so many moveset options?
Suffering from success
not sure if you can call them "victims" when it's pokemons that have so many options they don't know what to pick.
An actual victim of a 4moveslot syndrome would be a pokemon that would need a 5th moveslot to function but ends up not being able to fullfill a potentialy really strong role because it can't get everything going together and ends up just weak.
man, no shoutout to my boi raging bolt? You have calm mind, protect, thunderclap, thunderbolt, dragon pulse, Draco meteor, snarl, electroweb, dude can run any set you want. Hell, it even has heavy slam for flutter, volt switch, breaking swipe, dragon cheer, thunder wave, etc which are never run because the rest of its movepool is so insane.
There’s a difference between flexibility & 4MSS. Iron Valiant can make strong sets without needing another move unlike Blaziken
why would Clafairy want to use Trick? Doesn't it lose Eviolith and Knock Off doing it better?
How is this a bad thing? It only adds to their unpredictability in a competitive environment
0:22 False. In Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee, your starter has a fifth move, either Pika Papow or Veevee Volley.
Those barely count and this further prove that those starters should never leave let’s go
It sounds like a problem, but 4 Moveslot Syndrome actually means "This pokemon has a crazy deep movepool, so good that I can't make up my mind offensively, and it's unpredictable defensively."
and that it embodies what Pokemon is about
They're for sure going to nerf Incineroar next generation. What I mean by "nerf" of course is that they're going to give it Follow Me.
And Destiny Bond, just because
heck, give it Ceaseless Edge while they're at it
Incin needs a mega evolution desperately it's very weak we somehow gotta compensate for it either not one shotting everything in sight or lowering every possible stat there is to it's minimum
Next mechanic should be a limited use of a fifth move. Only one or two... prob just one
So many possibilities, and only four move slots
I wish protecting was an option parallel to the 4 moves.
Please don't give incineroar 5 move slots
Gyarados has suffered from this for years upon years