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Yes you can also experience firing and still dying in CS:GO, I should have made that more clear.. In CS2 however, if they sync the client animation with the mouse press then there will be a lot more occasions of a shot hitting an enemy but the player dying before, pretty much like playing on high ping. So none of the approaches seem to come without flaws but perhaps tying the animation to the shot is still the better alternative... I hope Valve finds a way to address this somehow.
@@m.n.s.s2825 I disagree. Although CS2 shooting seems a bit off, I think it's just a matter of time to get used to it. I seem to be pulling off some shots I thought I missed, and vice versa of course.
@@alexgryn85 Shooting and Animation delay is a fundamental flaw even for phone game stabdard and its CS where satisfying gunplay is everything. You are setting the bar low if you asking to get adapt to this,
This is the answer. The case where this happens is so rare. A human has an average reaction time of 250ms. So, we can safely guess that they'll never react exactly at the same time to the same situation. I think it's more likely that two humans fire at the same time randomly than purposely.
it would be fine as long as people are aware that this can happen. sadly, most of the time people are not aware and then proceed to trashtalk the game for it. this happened to me in PUBG once, i even made a recording and played it back a couple of times because i was in the final 1v1 and headshot the dude with a kar98 the same time he headshot me, but since he probably had a better ping he got the kill; kinda frustrating and i would at least want a draw in that case...
Didn't this already commonly happen in Csgo? I remember how often I shot someone with an AWP before I died but my friends spectating me didn't see any shot from me. It was just a normal thing. Nothing to get frustrated about in my opinion
Thanks man! Really appreciate the kind words. I aim to go deep into the details so everyone can get a full understanding of what's going on and build their own thoughts.
In CSGO, especially when awping, you died a lot, hearing you shot but it didn't count. So I'm happy with some animation out of sync but precise shooting. And oh god feels tapping great in CS2
Just you man. Any real GO players worth their shit fucking hate cs2 because of the guns. Enjoy tap tap tapping away instead of being able to practice and master a spray that’s consistent and memorable like csgo.
@@iagree4686 its not cause of subtick but deagle got accuracy buff, Yes it will feel better when moving atm, but you can be sure it will be balanced soon. Its nothing to do with subtick but the gun is now OP
and that also cause of ping difference, The 64 tick delay was much faster than your onling ping which could be 5 times the higher. Subtick will also have ping and if you click and your ping is 60, it will still take 60ms to hit. Not instant unlesss you are in LAN gaming
That's why spraying seems to be the worst. The visual cue of your gun firing being delayed has me all kinds of confused. I guess it's because of the muscle memory being used to having it be at the same time. Or maybe I just suck.
I always loved giving headshots (my avg hs% is over 50% for 1800 matches) and one tapping so Im maybe not so affected by this but I felt like spraying is a little bit "off"
spray transfers now are basically a death sentence for me, where in the past it was a very reliable way for me to get kills, most of kills were with spraying but with CS2 that's really just not feasible any more
Deathmatch feels insane right now. It's an absolute clusterfuck of 20 people constantly shooting each other in the back of the head every 5 seconds. Half the time I die I can't even see the person shooting me.
2:28 what you said is basically how EVERY computer works in real life. They all rely on ticks, known as discrete machines. The best solution is to basically only show shot animation client sided. Cons to that is you will encounter "CSGO'ed" moment when unfortunate. The only viable solution is to increase the server ticks as to mask the intervals even further.
Yep, most people do not even have the basic knowledge of how computers work. I laugh so hard when they say : "Tickrate doesn't matter now" or "There is no tickrate, it's tickless" By the way, I heard that the animations or shots cannot be client sided as this will allow cheaters to predict where the shots go. Valve disabled that in some old CS GO patch as cheaters could make auto spray control cheats or smth.
@@insslava Yeah, it's the principle of "never trust client side". As a game dev, I see nothing wrong with this mechanism implemented by Valve as it makes the most sense from dev intuitiveness and fairness matters.
@@insslava animations of shots are and were always client sided, the trajectory of spread is not, spread has absolutely 0 input on the things talked about here.
And so here kids we have a great example of an : "overfucking engineering, complicated, expensive solution.... when the solution was just : BUY 128 ticks servers"
I think sub tick is a great idea just not working as expected. The player just to reliant on the animation being in sync. Though I hope maybe the devs find a solution
Pls educate yourself a bit. Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. Software in the beta stage is also known as beta ware. A beta phase generally begins when the software is Feature-complete but likely to contain several known or unknown bugs. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software and speed or performance issues, and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts on users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it. Software beta releases can be either open or closed, depending on whether they are openly available or only available to a limited audience. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, preview release, prototype, technical preview or technology preview, or early access.
Pls educate yourself a bit. Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. Software in the beta stage is also known as beta ware. A beta phase generally begins when the software is Feature-complete but likely to contain several known or unknown bugs. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software and speed or performance issues, and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts on users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it. Software beta releases can be either open or closed, depending on whether they are openly available or only available to a limited audience. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, preview release, prototype, technical preview or technology preview, or early access.
Watched. I think they should still sync up the animation and the shot registration. It would be frustrating if you see the shooting animation and still die but hopefully it wouldn’t happen too often. We had a similar problem with the awp in csgo (you hear your shot shoot but you die and dont get the kill)and we just got used to that problem. The trade off is worth it.
If nothing works they should just go back to (128) tick servers or even better servers. I don’t think this will happen because valve has put in so much work already on the subtick sistem but worst case scenario they should just admit defeat and fix the issue
They probably can't without significantly increased server costs like Maxim said. Keep in mind how stingy they were about 128 tick servers. No way they'll make both hit registration and animations subtick (if that's what you mean)
I hear you and perhaps it is still worth a try. The AWP situation in CS:GO is a solid example. If syncing up can make the overall game feel more responsive/predictable, then a few frustrating moments could be a trade-off worth making. Guess it's all about finding that sweet spot.
CS is one of the few if not the only game that you need to know the technical aspects of it and do a lot of tweaks on your system to make it run properly which is nonsense. We waited so long for CS2 to come out to fix all the issues we've been suffering from in CSGO and now we are going through this again! no ty I'd rather move on with a different game
it's not crazy to think that an ultimate fps game could have 1000fps/tickrate, it's only 3 times what the best screen can do, the mouse can output 1000 pos per second , I'm sure that in lan it would feel incredible, with high end 10 or more Gbit, ultra low 1ms ping, I hope some day soon we'll get enough power to play like this. Online we would need a new architecture maybe with multi replication server that communicate between them and clients ultra fast, by being close to each client but the servers would be interconnected using big internet highways. The current 10 to 50ms appear slow (I played cs in early 2000's with less than 10 of ping) @@TH-camModsAreSnowflake
@@PingoX Didn't really happen in CSGO. Besides when I check my ping it's like 20 which is good, but this is happening to a lot of people so I don't think it's as simple as lag compensation.
Lmao I just don't understand why valve doesn't implement 128 tick servers straightforwardly. The sub-tick system might be better in reality than 128 tick servers but why go to such lengths and develop a new system instead of implementing an old, working system of 128 ticks like valorant
I think sub tick hit reg + 128tick servers would be a good combo, making hit reg perfect, but since the tick rate is higher, you don't feel the animation delay as much.
All the player base has asked for is 128 tick for years. This would have been universally welcomed. I’m all for future proofing but this experience makes cs borderline unplayable. Gun fights feel horrible.
The underlying problem has always been pretty much unsolvable since you can't completely eliminate lag but they can and will make it work good. We'll see next week.
No, you can be smarter about it a bit, but you can't "make it work" - that's why pros can choose the server they want to compete on - it's all about connection and performance of the machine. We are painting the grass green here - we want a server that is slower to act like its faster counterpart.
@@Reaper13411 that's how entire game dev works - you need an approximation, but this approximation needs to be good enough, clearly 64 ticks is not enough for competitive playing, while it is mostly ok for fun play with friends. So I don't mind if there is a split between faceit and the rest - Valve has the problem with it so they should solve it. I'm just saying that sub-tick system is not going to work for competitive environment. For entire 1.6 era we had a golden standard that server tick for competitive should be above 100 - that's it.
@@proosee Yep. Back when CAL would let you host on your own server instead of the other team's if they tried to play on 66tic. We've already known for 20 years that sub 100tic servers are completely unacceptable.
I don't care about the hit reg and all the backend stuff working flawlessly if the game feels disjointed or just weird to play. As it stands I'd rather have 64 tick ala CSGO.
I am a big fan of Valve they have done such much for pc gamers community, so yes unlike Blizzard they still have my trust but cs2 is a big project it will take two years before we get the optimal version.
Hello, mr Maxim. Why can’t anyone from youtube say this to Valve. Make your servers work on 128 ticks+ subticks. WE ALL KNOW THAT CS2 IS WORKING ON 64 Ticks+Subticks! JUST MAKE THEM 128 ticks! IT WILL FIX ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS, just fix the smokes for 128+subticks.
Yep exactly. I don’t know what he’s talking about in this vid… We’ve always had situations where we’ve seen the gun fire, heard the sound, but still died and shot was not registered.
@@georgthesecond The fact is, they cant perfectly sync our button click with the fire animation and server-side shot computations. Most of us prefer that the shot animation and computation is synced and ALSO represent the server-side computation. That gives us the visual and auditory clue we sync our brains with, and subconsciously we will sync our mouse click to that rhythm (which means we’ve learned to click the mouse button a bit earlier).
Never in my live would imagine i'd say this but holy smokes, CS2 feels like absolute garbage to play, Movement, Server or gunplay issues where you feel liek nothing's hitting at all or you or the enemy dies behind walls, I'd rather play Go again
Shots feeling of is one thing, but to me CS2 has more delay as a whole. If I compare my own Shadowplay clips from CSGO to CS2 this becomes obvious. In CS:GO it took 1 or 2 frames (at 60fps) from me shooting to the server showing the hit in the enemies model. In CS2 this takes around 5-8 frames. CS2 just feels like CS:GO with 80 ping or something.
@@melzyy same for me. I actually sat down with one of those friends and compared clips. Crazy enough, he had less delay. For him it took like 3-5 frames for a headshot to register where for me it took 5-8 frames. We live like 5km apart and always have the same ping. Idk what's going on.
watched. Here is a crazy idea: get rid of subtick and use 128 tick servers as proposed for 10 years. Solved it. On a serious note: I hope valve can fix this but if not, then the game as of now just feels way off for me. I also think hardcoding 64 tick will hurt the competitive scene if this means that no third party can offer 128 tick servers. No player who is serious about the game wants to play or will play on 64 tick. Sub tick doesnt change anything about that. There are a lot of other issues besides shooting with 64 tick that subtick will not solve. Also, I'm baffled that these issues exist at all. Valve literally had only TWO focus points for their development for cs2. Anti Cheat and 128 tick. As of now, they failed on both.
I don't understand what's different: Shooting animation used to activate in the next tick, and it's still the same. With the sub-tick, it shouldn't feel off, but feel as "on" as possible
So the input is registered irrespective of ticks, but the firing animation still depends on ticks....this is why it feels 64 tick but registering accurately like sub-tick....though it cannot be fully resolved, maybe valve could introduce 128 tick, but still keep the same method (input is sub-tick, and animation and result comes in the next tick). This way, they delay between the two will at least be reduced due to more ticks idk just my thoughts on this i guess, i may be wrong of course
I mean, the whole reason valve use sub tick is to not use 128 tick, 256 tick and so on. Using 64 tick allows valve to run much more game servers on a physical server, than 128/256 ticks, reducing the cost dramatically.
Yes you are indeed wrong. The whole point of them implementing the subtick system is to save server cost by keeping server at 64 ticks. If they were to increase them to 128 tick, they might aswell scrap the subtick system, because hit reg was very rarely a problem on 128 tick servers.
I think their best bet is to make the animations client-sided. What could work in a scenario where a player dies after the shot has been animated, is to play another animation (like reversing the shot) to make clear the shot didn't go through. This would at least be clear communication while improving the overall feel of the game with just one change
I still don't understand why the sprays feel so off. I was without internet before CS2 for about 2 weeks. In that time I spent dozens of hours offline practicing utils and sprays in CSGO. The sprays are not the same, they just aren't. The AK more than the M4s, but the AK especially feels like it's super drunk.
Watched. The issue of seeing your fire animation even though you died before you actually shot is also a problem in csgo, so no having the animation tied to the sub tick event client sided does not create a new issue.
(Watched) I've been thinking about this probably more than is healthy, and I'm also finding difficulty in coming up with a solution. I feel like in theory, 128 tick *could* lessen the problem, since more ticks = less delay between your input and the animation, but I also want to see Valve have a crack at fixing this first, without just saying "fuck it" and going to 128 as a band-aid fix. Like I said, it could lessen the problem, but it wouldn't solve it
I wouldn't say it's a band-aid fix, for almost entire history of CS 1.6 the over 100 tick server was the golden standard for competitive play. Yes, there were pub servers with inferior configuration, but only when switching to CS:GO we went *down* to 64 even for competitive games. That's why pros are playing on dedicated servers, that's why we have Faceit. So, let's face it (no pun intended), that needs to be done, if 128 is not possible, give us 100 or 90, but 64 is just too low.
@@antonioluiz3877 I mean.. it absolutely is a band-aid fix. However sometimes all you need is a band-aid, albeit this is a VERY fucking expensive band-aid for Valve.
This is dumb. Just make the animation completely local/client side on your PC and have it sync with the mouse click. Just leave subtick as it is. Who cares if it looks like you fired your gun and then you die? This already happens in CSGO. We have all experienced hearing the shooting sound with the AWP but dying nevertheless.
Normal client latency is 30-45ms, which would be ~3 ticks, so waiting for the player with the most delay would be horrible. I think the best compromise is still to just draw the animation when you shoot, and rewrite history when necessary. You already die behind cover, this would not be a worse experience I think, because the shots you do hit will feel so much crisper.
Its not easy to fix because Valve is dedicated to sticking with 64 tick as the base tickrate. Subtick is great for hit registration as we know, but other aspects of the game will still rely on the base tickrate and the feel of the game will be weird/out of sync. Its almost like they should have just stuck to a standard 128 tickrate system
Watched I commented this solution on your last video, tie client side animations to framerate (which is what other games do and most likely when mouse clicks are registered too) Personally I'd prefer the off chance of a false shot that server denies than every shot being delayed. If you think about how often you shoot vs how often you shoot at the same time as you die, I think that issue of false positives is worth the gain in responsiveness every other time you perform an action. Also in other game engines, client animations and input is run per frame and network messages sent per tick, which is what I also thought source did.
I see what you're saying, tying client-side animations to framerate does make the game feel way more responsive. But the thing is, if you tie animations to framerate, you're gonna end up with more moments where you think you got a shot off but actually died. It's gonna be frustrating as hell, kinda like playing with high ping. So it's not just about how the game feels, but also how often these 'false positives' might screw up the experience, you know? I mean, I bet Valve tried it out and felt like it was worse but that's just a guess.
(watched) This whole subtick thing is as interesting as it is broken. The whole ''What you see is what you get'' is just marketing. You don't get what you see, you get and see what the server will process on the next tick.. basically adding latency (?) i don't know i'm probably talking out my ass. anyway i really hope they roll out some sort of 128+subtick. That would really be the best of both worlds: instant hitreg and minimal desync
I get your point, but shooting someone at the same time is much lesser chance of happing. Also if that happens I would at least know that the other guy was simply faster than me. Which would probably tilt me a little bit, but WAY LESS then what is happening now regularly
thank you for the last two videos, maxim. i legitimately have been struggling in cs2 because a lot of my muscle memory is more reliant on the tick-based system than i thought. these videos really helped. the normal tick rate system we had always seemed perfectly fine and intuitive to me, since realistically, we'd be bound by the "physical" limitations of the weapon (i.e. how fast it can fire), like it doesn't matter if you pulled the trigger at this moment, the bullet still has to actually leave the gun. the subtick system just feels unnecessary to me, it's like the game is constantly out of sync.
Since the introduction of subtick system, I've had a big feeling that cheat developers can make it so that every input within a tick is timestamped on the very start of the tick, since this is clientside, giving them an ever so slight advantage. This would probably be a must in cs2 HvH in the future.
I've had the same thoughts as you. I don't understand hacking or subticks enough to know the answer. It seems to me that the only difference would be up to 1/64ths of a second faster shot. And if you're using a rage aimbot in competive matches i don't think it would make a difference anyways. For HvH sure. On top of it all, i find it really hard to believe Valve didn't consider this when designing subticks.
Watched. It seems like it's a tech limitation that makes it unsolvable for now. I do however appreciate Valve's approach in handling that limitation. I'd take the sub tick system any day.
Watched. I'd rather have the occasional blank firing before dying (this would be extremely rare, considering the fine margins), instead of the sluggish feel of the current system.
watched and I've had this question in cs2 for quite some time, why some guns just feel objectively worse than others to use... mainly the m4a4 over the a1s or ak and I think your video may explain it a little. Does the faster fire rate on a gun lead to more shots taken between ticks or sub-tick? If that's the case then the gun animations not syncing could explain why the a4 feels so different to me over guns with slower fire rate like the a1s and ak.
I thought they could fix the firing animation though? Anims are currently tied to tickrate, I don't know if that's industry standard but if they linked them to the client framerate, they can happen as soon as you shoot, they just can't do that with the actual hit reg visual delay for obvious reasons. The "dilemma" you present at 3:05 is also both rare & happens in every online fps, there's like a thread every week by what seems like first time fps players on the Valorant subreddit about it lol. Physics is not something devs can solve so shouldnt be worried about
delaying the animation on the server makes the click unresponsive, and putting the animation on the click makes it not consistent. I don't see a good alternative.
the only thing that will be "inconsistent" is the visual confirmation of the shot hitting being sent back to you from the server, sometimes itll be millseconds faster, sometimes milliseconds slower. If you have high ping this happens in every other game, it's just less noticable in games like Valorant because their servers are usually running at 100~ ticks a second @@lepepito
I've "watched" this happen with the AWP. most notably, the tracer for the awp will be on them although the shot misses by the smallest amount making you think the flick should have connected but didn't, leads to a lot of moments where you turn from the enemy before realising you haven't actually got them. In CSGO, especially when awping, you died a lot, hearing you shot but it didn't count. So I'm happy with some animation out of sync but precise shooting. after reading a few comments i understand their wants for 164 tick but at the end of the day value has build this game around this new system and I cant see them changing it as they want to create something that's new meta as they've done with tf2 to create class based shooters and puzzles with portal and so on. reinventing the wheel is a hard task but never the less. sometimes a wheel is better to drive tactile wise then something that hovered. or idk. not the best expression, but never the less. I feel like Client sided animations would still be better than the small chance you both fire at the same time. coming to terms with the fact that the client registered their shot 1ms before yours even if you got the one tap would be frustrating. although this feeling already comes laden within a match with this current system. so which would one prefer. I think its a start in the direction we all desire non the less. but change is hard to adapt too. that being said i still feel the player models feel heavy to orientate when counter strafing compared to GO and on the clients end hitting a shot and it registering as they go around the corner for them is irritating. I'm not sure. it seems to need work of some kind i cant see them keeping it like this forever because the pro level would be effected
@@MrMaxim I'll explain that more extensively for others. 1 second is 1000 milliseconds (ms) (metric system ftw) Let's say we have 2 players, one is from Germany, and the other is from Singapore. The server sits at France. The German gets 20ms while the Singaporean gets 240ms. Ping is a round trip time, meaning back and forth. In this case, let's assume that the time needed to send packets to the server for Germany is 10ms and Singapore is 120ms. Assume the time distance between 2 ticks is 250ms (which means the server has 4 ticks per second). Valve's server is 64 ticks so the time distance between ticks is 15.625ms (0.015625 seconds) Say the server currently goes from 0 tick to 1 tick and both player shot at 0ms (at the very start of 0 tick). The server would receive information faster from Germany at 10ms while Singapore came later at 120ms. Since Germany came first and the server had already processed and confirmed it as a kill, the info from the Singaporean will be denied and the server sends a response in the next tick, informing everybody connected that the Singaporean guy lost the duel.
@@cmaxz817If both fired at 0ms. Since its a subtick, both should get damage. It wouldn't be fair for Singapur to die, if both fired at the exact time. For this example both should die.
@@Хармония-ш6ж before, CS2 used to be like that, both will be registered as hit at 0ms. The recent patch that said "Will prioritize lower Ping" either compares the Ping directly, compensate by rewinding time, or even like what I have just said. The problem is, if both are treated like 0ms. You'll get a problem like, "I'm still dead even though I am already behind cover" for the lower Ping guy.
Watched, hate to say it but... 128 tick. Reduce the lag between firing animation and input without running into the issue of the animation playing when you lost the fight. My guess is the only reason valve hasn't done it yet is pride. Stalling while trying to come up with a new solution, meanwhile 128 with sub tick is already there and is a decent middle ground solution.
No doubt it'd smooth things out a bit, but sub-tick and 128 tick won't sadly completely fix that feeling of 'I shot first but still died.' There's always gonna be some lag between what you see and what the server sees, especially when latency's in the mix. I would argue that it's better to be able to rely purely on your firing animation.
Watched. 3:04 I think this already happens with the firing sound? There are times where you hear the shot fire but the server decided youre already dead so it doesnt count, it would make sense for the animations to match this plus both players shooting at almost the exact same time is pretty rare so i think its an acceptable downside to just predicting the animation
I believe that they have the ability to adjust a ton of things with this sub tick system. And im sure they will find a great balance and make it feel nice and work nicely
Watched. I think the animation working despite you being dead is not a problem because it still happened in GO. You would fire an AWP, be sure it was on point, but your friend says that there was no shot. That needs to happen in CS2 as well
I don't know maybe its just me but I haven't had any problems with the animation delays nor have I noticed it, the shooting in cs2 just feels soooo crisp and satisfying to me. I'm more concerned about the movement and input delay. The only time I can maybe think of noticing the delay is when it looks like I was way off but still get the kill somehow, which is quite the opposite from csgo and happens WAYYYYYY MORE often than in csgo. watched.
During development and testing do you think they have tried it out with this whole "sub tick" with LAN only and didnt see the issue as much as we do now with the bigger ping differences?
to all saying they are not that naive. i am pretty sure they didnt consider thorough testing. cs2 state right now is unacceptable and they certainly took it way to easily. load testing doesnt guarantee you ingame performance. loadtesting is primarily for server and client to server interaction
Plot twist, Valve trolling us with subtick to make us appreciate how good 64 was so they can change back to 64 again, Yes 64 was much better than Subtick, You will feel the snappy crisp shooting when you just que in csgo after cs2. 64 tick had a 15ms delay but thats fast enough for average human reaction time, Now we get instant click but with cost of off shooting and unsatisfying gunplay. L move
as someone who played extensively on 250 ping, the worst feeling is seeing yourself shoot first but still dying. You convinced me, i'd much rather take the delayed death animation than getting a 100 ping experience on LAN
Thank you for the great job that you have been doing in the last months bringing us updates of how the cs2 development is doing. Watched. I think that they might upgrade their servers to 128 ticks so the diference between the shot animation and the registration its less perceptible.
@@Couniar There will always be issues related to tickrate/lag compensation etc, nothing happens instantly over the internet. Increasing the tickrate to 128 would half the delay caused by tickrate from 15.6ms to 7.8ms and would allow hit registration and animations to occur on the same tick(assuming it was standard 128 tick and not subtick). In any setup there will always be some sort of compromise, I just hope things get synced up at least so the gunplay doesn't feel like shit anymore
I personally dont get valves reluctance on 128tick. I've hosted many servers from home and tested the strain on the system and network and its not even noticeable so there would be no cost/performance lose.
why can't valve just make the tick rate 128, wouldn't that reduce the animation latency enough that it would be barely noticeable? that's the best of both worlds IMO
Yes. 128 tick will click 7ms in click delay but that is way too fast for human reaction time get ahead too. Out of 100 kills we prolly missed 1 cause of 7ms delay. Now getting 1 extra kill out of 100 is the big cost to pay for not having a satisfactory gunplay
If Valve is willing to do all of the things they've done to get around 128 tick there's a pretty low chance they say fuck it and switch to 128 tick to solve a problem they created by trying to avoid switching. There's probably an incredibly Valve reason for not switching to 128 tick and all we can do is hope they fix the sub-tick stuff.
As long as there are no other parts of the system which are making the game feel weird or anything like that, subtick plus 128 tick will be UNBELIEVABLY precise.
@@callmetony1319 Yeah, unfortunately they probably created the subticks because they want to dodge the cost of upgrading their servers. I doubt they will give in 😂
watched wouldnt be atleast a small solution to finally swtich to 128tick servers? i know they hardcoded it but i still have hope that they might upgraded their servers and an kinda half off topic question would 256 tick servers be a realistic thing in the future? i mean if the ticks get smaller and smaller that subtick thing COULD become more realistic or am i wrong?
Diminishing returns. Like going from 60hz to 144hz feels and looks noticeably different, but 144 to 240/360 not so much. 64 is ~16ms, 128 is ~8 8ms is a huge difference. 256 is ~4ms. Going from 8ms to 4ms isn't that big of a difference compared to the cost of implementing it. Maybe in the future, 256 does become the norm. But beyond that, is such a low difference that it wouldn't even matter.
Client side shooting animation would solve alot. Only the enemy shooting would be delayed a bit in the worst case scenario. Since that still requires server registration and response
That has problem on its own: e.g. someone shoot you dead, your screen gets black and white, but then the game needs to revert it because this guy was killed before he killed you, result: flickering.
@@proosee teh fuck you talking about. That will never happen, that is quite literally impossible 🤣 you cant die before a tick has been processed by the server, so there will never be an instance of you dying and then being "resurrected", that makes no sense.
@@proosee That shouldn't happen, only your own shots would be predicted client side. If someone shoots you on their screen, but was actually already dead because your teamate shot them first on their screen, that opponent is going to see themselves shoot and then he is going to die... on your screen, you will simply see your teamate shoot him... you never died on the server game state, your opponent never shot on the server game state, so the server wouldn't tell your client that you died on that game tick and you certainly wouldn't see a shot from that opponent.
Due to ping you could still end up with cases where you shot, but an enemy shot your first. So on your side you shoot him, then the hit doesn't register and you die. With the current delay your shot is guaranteed to have gone through if it displayed on your screen. It's a matter of choosing the trade-offs.
The problem isn't shooting after death. The problem is what max explained. You can shoot after your enemy, both of you shooting before the next tick, and then when the server reaches the tick and does calculations it decides that you fired after your enemy, therefore you would be dead, even though you also hit your enemy. If you had the client sided animations you would see your enemy get headshoted, only to find out you died. It would be very confusing as in your screen, you hit your target. It's not an easy thing to fix. All of this because subtick isn't acting all the time. That would require outrageous amounts of server power. Instead subtick only registers the timings of your actions between ticks and then tells the server (on the next tick), all your actions.
@@Tommo_ Yup. It's complicated and literally unsolvable at its core (since you can't just remove ping). The best you can do is just find clever ways to mask it, which is why you'll never have a truly flawless netcode.
Watched. Just play the client side animation immediately! The confusion of witnessing your own shot and dying anyway is way less negative and experience compared to inconsistent firing
Watched. So I feel like we circle back to 128 vs 64 tick rate 😂 Maybe you should do a comparison between 128tick vs 64tick both in CS2? That way the animations are processed faster? 🤷🏻♂️ How does valorant deal with this?
Can someone explain why, in CS:GO there was no such thing as both players kill each other because their shots were executed by the server on the very same tick? As far as I understand it, it should have been possible...
Honestly fuck subtick and just give us 128 tick. Subtick should be better but it just isn't. If I need to calculate in my head, that my firing animation, the enemy movement and my weapon movement are delayed compared to the server side subtick hitreg I'd rather take what I have right now (64tick) at double the polling rate (128tick) Watched
You are absolutely correct in this video. Subtick is only about timestamping shots, movement, etc. And the package exchange between computer and the server happens at fixed rate, which is 64 tick. You cannot send packages continuously, as everything in computer world works at some rate. cpus, gpus, monitors and even your mouse has its own "tickrate" which is called frequency or polling rate. So, subtick fixed one problem and created another. The precision is perfect, but it actually doubled the delay if compared to the old 64 tick. Personally, I do not know how this can be fixed. It's either precision or absence of noticeable delay. You physically cannot have both at the same time, without increasing the tickrate. 128 tick servers can, of course, improve the current situation as the delay would be halved, but it still might be noticeable in some cases. P.S. I can send you a link to the post with a good explanation why the delay is so big with subtick.
The end is not 100% accurate. I have already had situations where i shot on my screen but the bullet was never registered by the server. Happens mostly on AWP duels. My friend said on his screen i didn't shoot while on my screen i did.
I think the character animation or player position lag is the biggest problem, exacerbated by mid-high ping. I did some testing with a friend on the other side of the country with him host and me at ~70 ping. We both recorded footage and on my end, his position difference between our recordings was as much as half a second off, which is a bit ridiculous at 70 ping.
Maybe it is time for Valve to embrace the most polemic mechanic in the history of FPS's: the very rare ocasion of a mutual kill. It is not a good dynamic, but it is extremely rare, it's what makes the most sense and the only way for players not to cry foul when dying after shooting a fatal shot.
Great video. I'm pretty sure this is the most accurate one based on my own observations too and it's very refreshing to see my own thoughts on subtick explained so well. Also, regardless of whether the client sided shots and animation is moved forward, the issue will remain where enemies kill you while you are behind a wall (because they shot you inbetween ticks before you got behind the wall on the next tick), which is another visual flaw with subtick even if it works.
Someone just left a comment on WarOwl's new video, basically saying that one of the reasons CS2 may feel so "off" is simply because movement and shooting is now so much more precise than in CSGO, and that therefore people just aren't used to playing without the level of redundancy for moving and shooting that there is in CSGO, especially on 64 tick servers. (1 tick on a 64 tick server is a delay of 16ms between ticks, compared to the probable sub-millisecond precision of CS2, if the graphics on the "Beyond tick-rate" video is anything to go by.)
personally I am more of a visual preference guy and I would pick accurate animation > this. My brain works with my eyes like they are connected... go figure.. Hope they find a way as this solution is a good step forward for machines but not for my mere human brain ;(
Animations are locally simulated, they are not validated by the server whatsoever. This happens in CSGO too btw, the exact issue that you are describing happens frequently, especially on higher ping environments. This is a design choice, because a 50ms delay between firing and the animation going off would feel way less responsive than one bullet not being registered every once in a while. I respect u a lot as a CS youtuber Maxim, but as a network programmer these videos tilt me so fking much, especially when I see other people parroting your talking points which are more often than not just plain incorrect. I don't wanna discourage you from learning this stuff, but it would be nice if you would get someone to fact check these things before you put them on the internet.
I was talking with my buddy about this. awping feels like you have to lead the shot but half the time the enemy counter strafes when you are visibly awping causing your 10 years of awping experience to be moot.
so basically, the most optimal thing to fix this would be 128tick servers with animations synced to the shot since it will be much less likely that two people shoot at each other in the same 7 milliseconds
With CS:GO we already have the issue described at 3:05, if you awp you will notice it extremely often, you are aiming directly center mass of someone, you click your mouse, hear the awp shot play through your headset but you die without getting a kill. It's not "really confusing" since everyone understands there are timing delays with servers.
Like when overwatch hyped up "favour the shooter" and then released the game with 20 tick servers and no latency limits on regions so it became favour the highest ping players instead
Yes you can also experience firing and still dying in CS:GO, I should have made that more clear..
In CS2 however, if they sync the client animation with the mouse press then there will be a lot more occasions of a shot hitting an enemy but the player dying before, pretty much like playing on high ping. So none of the approaches seem to come without flaws but perhaps tying the animation to the shot is still the better alternative... I hope Valve finds a way to address this somehow.
This happened in CSGO as well :P
So whats the best solution ?
Easy. bring back 64 or 128. Stop complicating things.
@@m.n.s.s2825 I disagree. Although CS2 shooting seems a bit off, I think it's just a matter of time to get used to it. I seem to be pulling off some shots I thought I missed, and vice versa of course.
@@alexgryn85 Shooting and Animation delay is a fundamental flaw even for phone game stabdard and its CS where satisfying gunplay is everything. You are setting the bar low if you asking to get adapt to this,
I played over 4000hrs and never saw anything like that
Client sided animations would still be better than the small chance you both fire at the same time...
This is the answer. The case where this happens is so rare. A human has an average reaction time of 250ms. So, we can safely guess that they'll never react exactly at the same time to the same situation. I think it's more likely that two humans fire at the same time randomly than purposely.
agree
it would be fine as long as people are aware that this can happen. sadly, most of the time people are not aware and then proceed to trashtalk the game for it. this happened to me in PUBG once, i even made a recording and played it back a couple of times because i was in the final 1v1 and headshot the dude with a kar98 the same time he headshot me, but since he probably had a better ping he got the kill; kinda frustrating and i would at least want a draw in that case...
solution: new "Client-side firing animation" setting
Didn't this already commonly happen in Csgo? I remember how often I shot someone with an AWP before I died but my friends spectating me didn't see any shot from me.
It was just a normal thing. Nothing to get frustrated about in my opinion
Damn, just wanna take time to appreciate this great coverage, only a couple of channels go this precise.
maxim the 🐐 fr
Thanks man! Really appreciate the kind words. I aim to go deep into the details so everyone can get a full understanding of what's going on and build their own thoughts.
In CSGO, especially when awping, you died a lot, hearing you shot but it didn't count. So I'm happy with some animation out of sync but precise shooting. And oh god feels tapping great in CS2
Just you man. Any real GO players worth their shit fucking hate cs2 because of the guns. Enjoy tap tap tapping away instead of being able to practice and master a spray that’s consistent and memorable like csgo.
deagling has never felt better
@@iagree4686 its not cause of subtick but deagle got accuracy buff, Yes it will feel better when moving atm, but you can be sure it will be balanced soon. Its nothing to do with subtick but the gun is now OP
Placebo effect
and that also cause of ping difference, The 64 tick delay was much faster than your onling ping which could be 5 times the higher. Subtick will also have ping and if you click and your ping is 60, it will still take 60ms to hit. Not instant unlesss you are in LAN gaming
That's why spraying seems to be the worst. The visual cue of your gun firing being delayed has me all kinds of confused. I guess it's because of the muscle memory being used to having it be at the same time. Or maybe I just suck.
Yeah AK feels very sluggish imo. Feels like the gun shoots slower
I always loved giving headshots (my avg hs% is over 50% for 1800 matches) and one tapping so Im maybe not so affected by this but I felt like spraying is a little bit "off"
if you are used to 128 tick and now u on a 64tick subtick thing the gun would shoot slower. like it does in csgo. @@Maxsvel1337
@@lufetm when u flick its affected by this so one tap is even more inconsistent :/
spray transfers now are basically a death sentence for me, where in the past it was a very reliable way for me to get kills, most of kills were with spraying but with CS2 that's really just not feasible any more
Deathmatch feels insane right now. It's an absolute clusterfuck of 20 people constantly shooting each other in the back of the head every 5 seconds. Half the time I die I can't even see the person shooting me.
It has always been a clusterfuck
2:28 what you said is basically how EVERY computer works in real life. They all rely on ticks, known as discrete machines. The best solution is to basically only show shot animation client sided. Cons to that is you will encounter "CSGO'ed" moment when unfortunate.
The only viable solution is to increase the server ticks as to mask the intervals even further.
Yep, most people do not even have the basic knowledge of how computers work. I laugh so hard when they say : "Tickrate doesn't matter now" or "There is no tickrate, it's tickless"
By the way, I heard that the animations or shots cannot be client sided as this will allow cheaters to predict where the shots go. Valve disabled that in some old CS GO patch as cheaters could make auto spray control cheats or smth.
@@insslava Yeah, it's the principle of "never trust client side". As a game dev, I see nothing wrong with this mechanism implemented by Valve as it makes the most sense from dev intuitiveness and fairness matters.
@@insslava animations of shots are and were always client sided, the trajectory of spread is not, spread has absolutely 0 input on the things talked about here.
@@usf976 true. I guess there's a reason why we have red and blue blocks representing each shot.
Not really. There's a difference between "ticks" in this context and "frames"
And so here kids we have a great example of an : "overfucking engineering, complicated, expensive solution.... when the solution was just : BUY 128 ticks servers"
I think sub tick is a great idea just not working as expected. The player just to reliant on the animation being in sync. Though I hope maybe the devs find a solution
No subtick and 128 tick locked
Id rather the bullet hit the guy when i clicked compared to when i see the gun shoot tbh . I like the new cs2 system
Pls educate yourself a bit.
Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. Software in the beta stage is also known as beta ware. A beta phase generally begins when the software is Feature-complete but likely to contain several known or unknown bugs. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software and speed or performance issues, and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts on users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it. Software beta releases can be either open or closed, depending on whether they are openly available or only available to a limited audience. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, preview release, prototype, technical preview or technology preview, or early access.
Pls educate yourself a bit.
Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. Software in the beta stage is also known as beta ware. A beta phase generally begins when the software is Feature-complete but likely to contain several known or unknown bugs. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software and speed or performance issues, and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts on users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it. Software beta releases can be either open or closed, depending on whether they are openly available or only available to a limited audience. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, preview release, prototype, technical preview or technology preview, or early access.
@PM1_57 the game is coming out next week, Mr. "educate yourself"
Crazy what instances valve goes, so they dont have to give us 128 tick
Watched. I think they should still sync up the animation and the shot registration. It would be frustrating if you see the shooting animation and still die but hopefully it wouldn’t happen too often. We had a similar problem with the awp in csgo (you hear your shot shoot but you die and dont get the kill)and we just got used to that problem.
The trade off is worth it.
If nothing works they should just go back to (128) tick servers or even better servers. I don’t think this will happen because valve has put in so much work already on the subtick sistem but worst case scenario they should just admit defeat and fix the issue
They probably can't without significantly increased server costs like Maxim said. Keep in mind how stingy they were about 128 tick servers. No way they'll make both hit registration and animations subtick (if that's what you mean)
We can just pretend that it's the travel time of the bullet that's happening between those ticks.
I take it back. If they made it 128tick i probably would have 30fps because my pc is quite old. Hopefully valve figure it out and fix the subtick
I hear you and perhaps it is still worth a try. The AWP situation in CS:GO is a solid example. If syncing up can make the overall game feel more responsive/predictable, then a few frustrating moments could be a trade-off worth making. Guess it's all about finding that sweet spot.
CS is one of the few if not the only game that you need to know the technical aspects of it and do a lot of tweaks on your system to make it run properly which is nonsense.
We waited so long for CS2 to come out to fix all the issues we've been suffering from in CSGO and now we are going through this again! no ty I'd rather move on with a different game
We need 512 tick servers
Boom problem solved
We need 2000 fps cs2
it's not crazy to think that an ultimate fps game could have 1000fps/tickrate, it's only 3 times what the best screen can do, the mouse can output 1000 pos per second , I'm sure that in lan it would feel incredible, with high end 10 or more Gbit, ultra low 1ms ping, I hope some day soon we'll get enough power to play like this. Online we would need a new architecture maybe with multi replication server that communicate between them and clients ultra fast, by being close to each client but the servers would be interconnected using big internet highways. The current 10 to 50ms appear slow (I played cs in early 2000's with less than 10 of ping) @@TH-camModsAreSnowflake
cs 1.6 servers had 1000fps. In 2000s
with turbo off !@@schabigerlump
Dying after you've hidden behind a wall is probably the most frustrating thing.
That's lag compensation working as it should, nothing wrong there
@@PingoX Didn't really happen in CSGO. Besides when I check my ping it's like 20 which is good, but this is happening to a lot of people so I don't think it's as simple as lag compensation.
If they cant make it feel good, sub-tick needs to go🤷♂️
Lmao I just don't understand why valve doesn't implement 128 tick servers straightforwardly. The sub-tick system might be better in reality than 128 tick servers but why go to such lengths and develop a new system instead of implementing an old, working system of 128 ticks like valorant
I think sub tick hit reg + 128tick servers would be a good combo, making hit reg perfect, but since the tick rate is higher, you don't feel the animation delay as much.
All the player base has asked for is 128 tick for years. This would have been universally welcomed. I’m all for future proofing but this experience makes cs borderline unplayable. Gun fights feel horrible.
The underlying problem has always been pretty much unsolvable since you can't completely eliminate lag but they can and will make it work good. We'll see next week.
No, you can be smarter about it a bit, but you can't "make it work" - that's why pros can choose the server they want to compete on - it's all about connection and performance of the machine. We are painting the grass green here - we want a server that is slower to act like its faster counterpart.
@@proosee This problem would persist, just less obvious, even on 256 tick servers.
@@Reaper13411 that's how entire game dev works - you need an approximation, but this approximation needs to be good enough, clearly 64 ticks is not enough for competitive playing, while it is mostly ok for fun play with friends. So I don't mind if there is a split between faceit and the rest - Valve has the problem with it so they should solve it. I'm just saying that sub-tick system is not going to work for competitive environment. For entire 1.6 era we had a golden standard that server tick for competitive should be above 100 - that's it.
@@proosee Yep. Back when CAL would let you host on your own server instead of the other team's if they tried to play on 66tic. We've already known for 20 years that sub 100tic servers are completely unacceptable.
@@proosee copy paste
I don't care about the hit reg and all the backend stuff working flawlessly if the game feels disjointed or just weird to play. As it stands I'd rather have 64 tick ala CSGO.
i have full faith in Valve. what they've done so far is wildly impressive and I know that no matter what they decide to do, it'll feel good. :)
Blind faith is terrible
@@m.n.s.s2825 it's the only thing we can do
having faith in Valve is wild
I am a big fan of Valve they have done such much for pc gamers community, so yes unlike Blizzard they still have my trust but cs2 is a big project it will take two years before we get the optimal version.
@@santi7085 nah not really bro Valve only drops bangers c’mon
Hello, mr Maxim. Why can’t anyone from youtube say this to Valve. Make your servers work on 128 ticks+ subticks. WE ALL KNOW THAT CS2 IS WORKING ON 64 Ticks+Subticks! JUST MAKE THEM 128 ticks! IT WILL FIX ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS, just fix the smokes for 128+subticks.
2:55 I've had this issue in CSGO where I shot with the AWP, heard the sound, got killed and the AWP stayed at full clip.
Yep exactly. I don’t know what he’s talking about in this vid… We’ve always had situations where we’ve seen the gun fire, heard the sound, but still died and shot was not registered.
same, i had this situation both in csgo and cs2
@@Onibabayaga I thought it's due to ping and some things being client side and some server side.
@@georgthesecond The fact is, they cant perfectly sync our button click with the fire animation and server-side shot computations. Most of us prefer that the shot animation and computation is synced and ALSO represent the server-side computation. That gives us the visual and auditory clue we sync our brains with, and subconsciously we will sync our mouse click to that rhythm (which means we’ve learned to click the mouse button a bit earlier).
@@Onibabayaga not relying on ticks to register your shots is also a nice thing.
Never in my live would imagine i'd say this but holy smokes, CS2 feels like absolute garbage to play, Movement, Server or gunplay issues where you feel liek nothing's hitting at all or you or the enemy dies behind walls, I'd rather play Go again
Shots feeling of is one thing, but to me CS2 has more delay as a whole. If I compare my own Shadowplay clips from CSGO to CS2 this becomes obvious. In CS:GO it took 1 or 2 frames (at 60fps) from me shooting to the server showing the hit in the enemies model. In CS2 this takes around 5-8 frames. CS2 just feels like CS:GO with 80 ping or something.
thats the thing i instantly noticed in cs2 when i got to play the beta and all my friends called me crazy lol
@@melzyy same for me. I actually sat down with one of those friends and compared clips. Crazy enough, he had less delay. For him it took like 3-5 frames for a headshot to register where for me it took 5-8 frames. We live like 5km apart and always have the same ping. Idk what's going on.
simple to fix, remove that subtick thing and host 128 tick servers or higher then 128 tick.
watched. Here is a crazy idea: get rid of subtick and use 128 tick servers as proposed for 10 years. Solved it. On a serious note: I hope valve can fix this but if not, then the game as of now just feels way off for me. I also think hardcoding 64 tick will hurt the competitive scene if this means that no third party can offer 128 tick servers. No player who is serious about the game wants to play or will play on 64 tick. Sub tick doesnt change anything about that. There are a lot of other issues besides shooting with 64 tick that subtick will not solve. Also, I'm baffled that these issues exist at all. Valve literally had only TWO focus points for their development for cs2. Anti Cheat and 128 tick. As of now, they failed on both.
I agree these were my top 2 anti-cheat being number one. Sad as it is looking grim at the moment...
I don't understand what's different: Shooting animation used to activate in the next tick, and it's still the same. With the sub-tick, it shouldn't feel off, but feel as "on" as possible
So the input is registered irrespective of ticks, but the firing animation still depends on ticks....this is why it feels 64 tick but registering accurately like sub-tick....though it cannot be fully resolved, maybe valve could introduce 128 tick, but still keep the same method (input is sub-tick, and animation and result comes in the next tick). This way, they delay between the two will at least be reduced due to more ticks
idk just my thoughts on this i guess, i may be wrong of course
No it's all still based on tickrate but now they register the exact time when some things happen on the internal timer and not just on ping difference
Isn't the animation trigger already 128 tick?
I mean, the whole reason valve use sub tick is to not use 128 tick, 256 tick and so on. Using 64 tick allows valve to run much more game servers on a physical server, than 128/256 ticks, reducing the cost dramatically.
Yes you are indeed wrong. The whole point of them implementing the subtick system is to save server cost by keeping server at 64 ticks. If they were to increase them to 128 tick, they might aswell scrap the subtick system, because hit reg was very rarely a problem on 128 tick servers.
They should just move to 128tick and all the problems are mostly gone ffs. It would be such a simple solution.
Valve has got to use crap server hardware else they would have, right!?!?
I think their best bet is to make the animations client-sided. What could work in a scenario where a player dies after the shot has been animated, is to play another animation (like reversing the shot) to make clear the shot didn't go through. This would at least be clear communication while improving the overall feel of the game with just one change
bro wtf is that kind of solution 🤣
I still don't understand why the sprays feel so off. I was without internet before CS2 for about 2 weeks. In that time I spent dozens of hours offline practicing utils and sprays in CSGO. The sprays are not the same, they just aren't. The AK more than the M4s, but the AK especially feels like it's super drunk.
Watched. The issue of seeing your fire animation even though you died before you actually shot is also a problem in csgo, so no having the animation tied to the sub tick event client sided does not create a new issue.
see the pinned comment
In other words: subtick sucks and 128tick should come back.
(Watched) I've been thinking about this probably more than is healthy, and I'm also finding difficulty in coming up with a solution. I feel like in theory, 128 tick *could* lessen the problem, since more ticks = less delay between your input and the animation, but I also want to see Valve have a crack at fixing this first, without just saying "fuck it" and going to 128 as a band-aid fix. Like I said, it could lessen the problem, but it wouldn't solve it
You share my thoughts exactly, and it's nice to see someone actually watching the video to the end and understanding the points made in the video.
I wouldn't say it's a band-aid fix, for almost entire history of CS 1.6 the over 100 tick server was the golden standard for competitive play. Yes, there were pub servers with inferior configuration, but only when switching to CS:GO we went *down* to 64 even for competitive games. That's why pros are playing on dedicated servers, that's why we have Faceit. So, let's face it (no pun intended), that needs to be done, if 128 is not possible, give us 100 or 90, but 64 is just too low.
@@MrMaximeveryone with a brain knows this already. Cs2 suffers from shit quality servers, thats really it. Input lag and 64 tick is just 2 garbage
watched 128 tick is not a band-aid fix, it is the actual fix, it's the only thing we've been asking for years
@@antonioluiz3877 I mean.. it absolutely is a band-aid fix. However sometimes all you need is a band-aid, albeit this is a VERY fucking expensive band-aid for Valve.
This is dumb. Just make the animation completely local/client side on your PC and have it sync with the mouse click. Just leave subtick as it is. Who cares if it looks like you fired your gun and then you die? This already happens in CSGO. We have all experienced hearing the shooting sound with the AWP but dying nevertheless.
Normal client latency is 30-45ms, which would be ~3 ticks, so waiting for the player with the most delay would be horrible. I think the best compromise is still to just draw the animation when you shoot, and rewrite history when necessary. You already die behind cover, this would not be a worse experience I think, because the shots you do hit will feel so much crisper.
Its not easy to fix because Valve is dedicated to sticking with 64 tick as the base tickrate. Subtick is great for hit registration as we know, but other aspects of the game will still rely on the base tickrate and the feel of the game will be weird/out of sync. Its almost like they should have just stuck to a standard 128 tickrate system
No shit
Only if it was that issue. Terrible firing sounds, collision and ocassionaly perfomance lag
Watched
I commented this solution on your last video, tie client side animations to framerate (which is what other games do and most likely when mouse clicks are registered too)
Personally I'd prefer the off chance of a false shot that server denies than every shot being delayed. If you think about how often you shoot vs how often you shoot at the same time as you die, I think that issue of false positives is worth the gain in responsiveness every other time you perform an action.
Also in other game engines, client animations and input is run per frame and network messages sent per tick, which is what I also thought source did.
I see what you're saying, tying client-side animations to framerate does make the game feel way more responsive. But the thing is, if you tie animations to framerate, you're gonna end up with more moments where you think you got a shot off but actually died. It's gonna be frustrating as hell, kinda like playing with high ping. So it's not just about how the game feels, but also how often these 'false positives' might screw up the experience, you know? I mean, I bet Valve tried it out and felt like it was worse but that's just a guess.
@MrMaxim but I still think it's rare enough that it's a better alternative to EVERY shot you take being not aligned with the actual impact
(watched) This whole subtick thing is as interesting as it is broken.
The whole ''What you see is what you get'' is just marketing. You don't get what you see, you get and see what the server will process on the next tick.. basically adding latency (?) i don't know i'm probably talking out my ass.
anyway i really hope they roll out some sort of 128+subtick. That would really be the best of both worlds: instant hitreg and minimal desync
I get your point, but shooting someone at the same time is much lesser chance of happing. Also if that happens I would at least know that the other guy was simply faster than me.
Which would probably tilt me a little bit, but WAY LESS then what is happening now regularly
thank you for the last two videos, maxim. i legitimately have been struggling in cs2 because a lot of my muscle memory is more reliant on the tick-based system than i thought. these videos really helped.
the normal tick rate system we had always seemed perfectly fine and intuitive to me, since realistically, we'd be bound by the "physical" limitations of the weapon (i.e. how fast it can fire), like it doesn't matter if you pulled the trigger at this moment, the bullet still has to actually leave the gun. the subtick system just feels unnecessary to me, it's like the game is constantly out of sync.
Since the introduction of subtick system, I've had a big feeling that cheat developers can make it so that every input within a tick is timestamped on the very start of the tick, since this is clientside, giving them an ever so slight advantage. This would probably be a must in cs2 HvH in the future.
Also very hard to detect by humans, but valve could just check the odds that every shot comes at the beginning of the tick.
I've had the same thoughts as you. I don't understand hacking or subticks enough to know the answer.
It seems to me that the only difference would be up to 1/64ths of a second faster shot. And if you're using a rage aimbot in competive matches i don't think it would make a difference anyways. For HvH sure.
On top of it all, i find it really hard to believe Valve didn't consider this when designing subticks.
yeah
If you have inputs not matching up with the visuals, you may as well turn off the monitor and play guitar hero
Watched. It seems like it's a tech limitation that makes it unsolvable for now. I do however appreciate Valve's approach in handling that limitation. I'd take the sub tick system any day.
If its fixed yeah, in its current state absolutely not. CSGO looks and feels better than CS2 right now.
Watched. I'd rather have the occasional blank firing before dying (this would be extremely rare, considering the fine margins), instead of the sluggish feel of the current system.
Obviously I'd rather have the occasional confusing death instead of constant desynch between shots and animations...
Synch it up right now!
Imagine just giving us 128T and calling it a day.
watched and I've had this question in cs2 for quite some time, why some guns just feel objectively worse than others to use... mainly the m4a4 over the a1s or ak and I think your video may explain it a little. Does the faster fire rate on a gun lead to more shots taken between ticks or sub-tick? If that's the case then the gun animations not syncing could explain why the a4 feels so different to me over guns with slower fire rate like the a1s and ak.
Yes, i have the same feeling. The MP9 for example feels extremly weird
I have the opposite problem, I can’t hit with Ak now
I prefer Galil over ak and A4 over A1-S and I have no idea why
for me the same, i love a1s in csgo, now its pure shit and ak aswell@@ItsMorbinTime03
P90 is god tier now.
Now I think subtick has no point on being implemented in cs
I thought they could fix the firing animation though? Anims are currently tied to tickrate, I don't know if that's industry standard but if they linked them to the client framerate, they can happen as soon as you shoot, they just can't do that with the actual hit reg visual delay for obvious reasons.
The "dilemma" you present at 3:05 is also both rare & happens in every online fps, there's like a thread every week by what seems like first time fps players on the Valorant subreddit about it lol. Physics is not something devs can solve so shouldnt be worried about
delaying the animation on the server makes the click unresponsive, and putting the animation on the click makes it not consistent. I don't see a good alternative.
The animation "problem" is already present with ping so that part of video is just bs
the only thing that will be "inconsistent" is the visual confirmation of the shot hitting being sent back to you from the server, sometimes itll be millseconds faster, sometimes milliseconds slower. If you have high ping this happens in every other game, it's just less noticable in games like Valorant because their servers are usually running at 100~ ticks a second @@lepepito
@@Nazara50000 yes that’s why they can’t sole it. They have to chose between both issues which is best
Well, then I rather die firing
I've "watched" this happen with the AWP. most notably, the tracer for the awp will be on them although the shot misses by the smallest amount making you think the flick should have connected but didn't, leads to a lot of moments where you turn from the enemy before realising you haven't actually got them. In CSGO, especially when awping, you died a lot, hearing you shot but it didn't count. So I'm happy with some animation out of sync but precise shooting. after reading a few comments i understand their wants for 164 tick but at the end of the day value has build this game around this new system and I cant see them changing it as they want to create something that's new meta as they've done with tf2 to create class based shooters and puzzles with portal and so on. reinventing the wheel is a hard task but never the less. sometimes a wheel is better to drive tactile wise then something that hovered. or idk. not the best expression, but never the less. I feel like Client sided animations would still be better than the small chance you both fire at the same time. coming to terms with the fact that the client registered their shot 1ms before yours even if you got the one tap would be frustrating. although this feeling already comes laden within a match with this current system. so which would one prefer. I think its a start in the direction we all desire non the less. but change is hard to adapt too. that being said i still feel the player models feel heavy to orientate when counter strafing compared to GO and on the clients end hitting a shot and it registering as they go around the corner for them is irritating. I'm not sure. it seems to need work of some kind i cant see them keeping it like this forever because the pro level would be effected
I believe this happens because you are both shooting at the same tick, but the ping difference is what made you lose the duel.
@@MrMaxim I'll explain that more extensively for others.
1 second is 1000 milliseconds (ms) (metric system ftw)
Let's say we have 2 players, one is from Germany, and the other is from Singapore. The server sits at France. The German gets 20ms while the Singaporean gets 240ms. Ping is a round trip time, meaning back and forth. In this case, let's assume that the time needed to send packets to the server for Germany is 10ms and Singapore is 120ms. Assume the time distance between 2 ticks is 250ms (which means the server has 4 ticks per second). Valve's server is 64 ticks so the time distance between ticks is 15.625ms (0.015625 seconds)
Say the server currently goes from 0 tick to 1 tick and both player shot at 0ms (at the very start of 0 tick). The server would receive information faster from Germany at 10ms while Singapore came later at 120ms. Since Germany came first and the server had already processed and confirmed it as a kill, the info from the Singaporean will be denied and the server sends a response in the next tick, informing everybody connected that the Singaporean guy lost the duel.
@@cmaxz817If both fired at 0ms. Since its a subtick, both should get damage. It wouldn't be fair for Singapur to die, if both fired at the exact time. For this example both should die.
@@Хармония-ш6ж before, CS2 used to be like that, both will be registered as hit at 0ms. The recent patch that said "Will prioritize lower Ping" either compares the Ping directly, compensate by rewinding time, or even like what I have just said.
The problem is, if both are treated like 0ms. You'll get a problem like, "I'm still dead even though I am already behind cover" for the lower Ping guy.
Watched, hate to say it but... 128 tick. Reduce the lag between firing animation and input without running into the issue of the animation playing when you lost the fight.
My guess is the only reason valve hasn't done it yet is pride. Stalling while trying to come up with a new solution, meanwhile 128 with sub tick is already there and is a decent middle ground solution.
No doubt it'd smooth things out a bit, but sub-tick and 128 tick won't sadly completely fix that feeling of 'I shot first but still died.' There's always gonna be some lag between what you see and what the server sees, especially when latency's in the mix. I would argue that it's better to be able to rely purely on your firing animation.
Watched. 3:04 I think this already happens with the firing sound?
There are times where you hear the shot fire but the server decided youre already dead so it doesnt count, it would make sense for the animations to match this
plus both players shooting at almost the exact same time is pretty rare so i think its an acceptable downside to just predicting the animation
We’re just used to the csgo delay
I believe that they have the ability to adjust a ton of things with this sub tick system. And im sure they will find a great balance and make it feel nice and work nicely
Just give us 128 tick and a better anti cheat.Nobody wants a flashy game where u cant even spray properly.
Watched. I think the animation working despite you being dead is not a problem because it still happened in GO. You would fire an AWP, be sure it was on point, but your friend says that there was no shot. That needs to happen in CS2 as well
That’s likely a ping problem, not the tick
I don't know maybe its just me but I haven't had any problems with the animation delays nor have I noticed it, the shooting in cs2 just feels soooo crisp and satisfying to me. I'm more concerned about the movement and input delay. The only time I can maybe think of noticing the delay is when it looks like I was way off but still get the kill somehow, which is quite the opposite from csgo and happens WAYYYYYY MORE often than in csgo. watched.
During development and testing do you think they have tried it out with this whole "sub tick" with LAN only and didnt see the issue as much as we do now with the bigger ping differences?
It's not like this is their first online game they're developing. Of course they use tools to simulate different network connections
Bother, you know absolutely nothing about game dev. Ofc they're not that naive lol. I am sure they have the tool to simulate such mundane things.
load up a map, open up console:
- sv_cheats 1
- net_fakelag
voila, simulated lag/ping. check ping in scoreboard and adjust net_fakelag as necessary.
No way, I think even a first semester CS student would know to test the netcode in a real-world setting before shipping
to all saying they are not that naive. i am pretty sure they didnt consider thorough testing. cs2 state right now is unacceptable and they certainly took it way to easily.
load testing doesnt guarantee you ingame performance. loadtesting is primarily for server and client to server interaction
Watched and there's an easy way to improve this issue: 128 tick servers
it doesnt fix it it just makes it slightly better
Plot twist, Valve trolling us with subtick to make us appreciate how good 64 was so they can change back to 64 again, Yes 64 was much better than Subtick, You will feel the snappy crisp shooting when you just que in csgo after cs2. 64 tick had a 15ms delay but thats fast enough for average human reaction time, Now we get instant click but with cost of off shooting and unsatisfying gunplay. L move
as someone who played extensively on 250 ping, the worst feeling is seeing yourself shoot first but still dying. You convinced me, i'd much rather take the delayed death animation than getting a 100 ping experience on LAN
Thank you for the great job that you have been doing in the last months bringing us updates of how the cs2 development is doing. Watched. I think that they might upgrade their servers to 128 ticks so the diference between the shot animation and the registration its less perceptible.
What makes you think that 128 tick will solve everything? I'm really curious about it, even though I have some disagreements with the pros
@@Couniar It wont solve anything but it will make everything less severe if i understood correctly
@@Couniar There will always be issues related to tickrate/lag compensation etc, nothing happens instantly over the internet.
Increasing the tickrate to 128 would half the delay caused by tickrate from 15.6ms to 7.8ms and would allow hit registration and animations to occur on the same tick(assuming it was standard 128 tick and not subtick). In any setup there will always be some sort of compromise, I just hope things get synced up at least so the gunplay doesn't feel like shit anymore
I personally dont get valves reluctance on 128tick. I've hosted many servers from home and tested the strain on the system and network and its not even noticeable so there would be no cost/performance lose.
why can't valve just make the tick rate 128, wouldn't that reduce the animation latency enough that it would be barely noticeable? that's the best of both worlds IMO
m00ney
Yes. 128 tick will click 7ms in click delay but that is way too fast for human reaction time get ahead too. Out of 100 kills we prolly missed 1 cause of 7ms delay.
Now getting 1 extra kill out of 100 is the big cost to pay for not having a satisfactory gunplay
Yea but then they have to spend more on server cost and gaben needs his 10 burgir menus per day
If Valve is willing to do all of the things they've done to get around 128 tick there's a pretty low chance they say fuck it and switch to 128 tick to solve a problem they created by trying to avoid switching.
There's probably an incredibly Valve reason for not switching to 128 tick and all we can do is hope they fix the sub-tick stuff.
it is barely noticeable at 64 tick.
I think subtick is fine, however the servers should be 128. If they do that, it wont be noticable.
As long as there are no other parts of the system which are making the game feel weird or anything like that, subtick plus 128 tick will be UNBELIEVABLY precise.
@@callmetony1319 Yeah, unfortunately they probably created the subticks because they want to dodge the cost of upgrading their servers. I doubt they will give in 😂
I don't understand how they didn't consider that this subtick vs animation tick would create issues cuz things are not desync
Honestly I'm much worse than in CS:GO. I feel the weapon and that's how I play, now it seems totally off.
watched
wouldnt be atleast a small solution to finally swtich to 128tick servers? i know they hardcoded it but i still have hope that they might upgraded their servers
and an kinda half off topic question
would 256 tick servers be a realistic thing in the future? i mean if the ticks get smaller and smaller that subtick thing COULD become more realistic or am i wrong?
Diminishing returns. Like going from 60hz to 144hz feels and looks noticeably different, but 144 to 240/360 not so much.
64 is ~16ms, 128 is ~8
8ms is a huge difference.
256 is ~4ms. Going from 8ms to 4ms isn't that big of a difference compared to the cost of implementing it. Maybe in the future, 256 does become the norm. But beyond that, is such a low difference that it wouldn't even matter.
Client side shooting animation would solve alot. Only the enemy shooting would be delayed a bit in the worst case scenario. Since that still requires server registration and response
That has problem on its own: e.g. someone shoot you dead, your screen gets black and white, but then the game needs to revert it because this guy was killed before he killed you, result: flickering.
@@proosee teh fuck you talking about. That will never happen, that is quite literally impossible 🤣 you cant die before a tick has been processed by the server, so there will never be an instance of you dying and then being "resurrected", that makes no sense.
@@proosee That shouldn't happen, only your own shots would be predicted client side. If someone shoots you on their screen, but was actually already dead because your teamate shot them first on their screen, that opponent is going to see themselves shoot and then he is going to die... on your screen, you will simply see your teamate shoot him... you never died on the server game state, your opponent never shot on the server game state, so the server wouldn't tell your client that you died on that game tick and you certainly wouldn't see a shot from that opponent.
if subtick is accurate, then surely making the animations client sided would be fine and you wouldn't end up with shooting after death situations?
Due to ping you could still end up with cases where you shot, but an enemy shot your first. So on your side you shoot him, then the hit doesn't register and you die.
With the current delay your shot is guaranteed to have gone through if it displayed on your screen.
It's a matter of choosing the trade-offs.
The problem isn't shooting after death. The problem is what max explained. You can shoot after your enemy, both of you shooting before the next tick, and then when the server reaches the tick and does calculations it decides that you fired after your enemy, therefore you would be dead, even though you also hit your enemy. If you had the client sided animations you would see your enemy get headshoted, only to find out you died.
It would be very confusing as in your screen, you hit your target. It's not an easy thing to fix.
All of this because subtick isn't acting all the time. That would require outrageous amounts of server power. Instead subtick only registers the timings of your actions between ticks and then tells the server (on the next tick), all your actions.
@@KoziLord I see, this stuff is super complicated to try and process in your head lol
@@joaofaro_ from what I can gather, the solution is 128hz servers with subtick then 🙃
@@Tommo_ Yup. It's complicated and literally unsolvable at its core (since you can't just remove ping). The best you can do is just find clever ways to mask it, which is why you'll never have a truly flawless netcode.
Watched. Just play the client side animation immediately! The confusion of witnessing your own shot and dying anyway is way less negative and experience compared to inconsistent firing
Watched. So I feel like we circle back to 128 vs 64 tick rate 😂
Maybe you should do a comparison between 128tick vs 64tick both in CS2? That way the animations are processed faster? 🤷🏻♂️
How does valorant deal with this?
I heard that they just use more tickrates than 64 but still less than 128
they removed 128 tick from cs 2
Valorant has 128 tick servers - that was Riot's selling point.
solution: 256 tickrate + subtick
Bring back 64 or 128 plz not this 💩
💯
Can someone explain why, in CS:GO there was no such thing as both players kill each other because their shots were executed by the server on the very same tick? As far as I understand it, it should have been possible...
Honestly fuck subtick and just give us 128 tick.
Subtick should be better but it just isn't.
If I need to calculate in my head, that my firing animation, the enemy movement and my weapon movement are delayed compared to the server side subtick hitreg I'd rather take what I have right now (64tick) at double the polling rate (128tick)
Watched
For once I actually think this is a fair point.
I would rather shoot and die lol than wonder why my gun didnt go off when i clicked at all and still die
You are absolutely correct in this video. Subtick is only about timestamping shots, movement, etc. And the package exchange between computer and the server happens at fixed rate, which is 64 tick. You cannot send packages continuously, as everything in computer world works at some rate. cpus, gpus, monitors and even your mouse has its own "tickrate" which is called frequency or polling rate.
So, subtick fixed one problem and created another. The precision is perfect, but it actually doubled the delay if compared to the old 64 tick.
Personally, I do not know how this can be fixed. It's either precision or absence of noticeable delay. You physically cannot have both at the same time, without increasing the tickrate.
128 tick servers can, of course, improve the current situation as the delay would be halved, but it still might be noticeable in some cases.
P.S. I can send you a link to the post with a good explanation why the delay is so big with subtick.
Im not looking forward to csgo leaving us. Im probably in the minority. Half the changes seem to be just for the sake of change.
The end is not 100% accurate. I have already had situations where i shot on my screen but the bullet was never registered by the server. Happens mostly on AWP duels. My friend said on his screen i didn't shoot while on my screen i did.
I think the character animation or player position lag is the biggest problem, exacerbated by mid-high ping. I did some testing with a friend on the other side of the country with him host and me at ~70 ping. We both recorded footage and on my end, his position difference between our recordings was as much as half a second off, which is a bit ridiculous at 70 ping.
Maybe it is time for Valve to embrace the most polemic mechanic in the history of FPS's: the very rare ocasion of a mutual kill. It is not a good dynamic, but it is extremely rare, it's what makes the most sense and the only way for players not to cry foul when dying after shooting a fatal shot.
Great video. I'm pretty sure this is the most accurate one based on my own observations too and it's very refreshing to see my own thoughts on subtick explained so well. Also, regardless of whether the client sided shots and animation is moved forward, the issue will remain where enemies kill you while you are behind a wall (because they shot you inbetween ticks before you got behind the wall on the next tick), which is another visual flaw with subtick even if it works.
Upgrading on 128-tick servers would not solve the problem, but it reduces the delay between klicking and shooting animation.
We 256 tick, problem solved!
They should hire you
Million dollar salary
Someone just left a comment on WarOwl's new video, basically saying that one of the reasons CS2 may feel so "off" is simply because movement and shooting is now so much more precise than in CSGO, and that therefore people just aren't used to playing without the level of redundancy for moving and shooting that there is in CSGO, especially on 64 tick servers. (1 tick on a 64 tick server is a delay of 16ms between ticks, compared to the probable sub-millisecond precision of CS2, if the graphics on the "Beyond tick-rate" video is anything to go by.)
This just makes me more confused with valves decision to stick with 64tick. i mean wouldnt more ticks atleast help it a bit?
I will never play CS2. If the issue never solves. Like literally WTF.
personally I am more of a visual preference guy and I would pick accurate animation > this. My brain works with my eyes like they are connected... go figure.. Hope they find a way as this solution is a good step forward for machines but not for my mere human brain ;(
Animations are locally simulated, they are not validated by the server whatsoever. This happens in CSGO too btw, the exact issue that you are describing happens frequently, especially on higher ping environments. This is a design choice, because a 50ms delay between firing and the animation going off would feel way less responsive than one bullet not being registered every once in a while.
I respect u a lot as a CS youtuber Maxim, but as a network programmer these videos tilt me so fking much, especially when I see other people parroting your talking points which are more often than not just plain incorrect. I don't wanna discourage you from learning this stuff, but it would be nice if you would get someone to fact check these things before you put them on the internet.
What if, hear me out, they ran the server on a higher tickrate. O_o
I was talking with my buddy about this. awping feels like you have to lead the shot but half the time the enemy counter strafes when you are visibly awping causing your 10 years of awping experience to be moot.
so basically, the most optimal thing to fix this would be 128tick servers with animations synced to the shot since it will be much less likely that two people shoot at each other in the same 7 milliseconds
With CS:GO we already have the issue described at 3:05, if you awp you will notice it extremely often, you are aiming directly center mass of someone, you click your mouse, hear the awp shot play through your headset but you die without getting a kill. It's not "really confusing" since everyone understands there are timing delays with servers.
"what you see is what you get" what a lie 😂😂😂😂😂
Like when overwatch hyped up "favour the shooter" and then released the game with 20 tick servers and no latency limits on regions so it became favour the highest ping players instead
My experience says it looks like the game needs 1 full second to know if i died after a firefight or not. Playing on 30-40ping.