Honey, I Shrunk the Space Marines - All About LEGIONS IMPERIALIS!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- Peter unboxes and talks about the new Legion Imperialis, goes through the rules, talks about the history of epic scale 40K, and throws in a few controversial opinions!
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I agree, and like you said, if it's aimed at folks who enjoyed GWs older stuff you would think they would throw in all the nostalic colour and graphic design.
There's probably not many of us left anymore! 🤣
Epic Armageddon was always my favourite edition, very smooth and fast play. I like the grim dark look, but even in rogue trader and realms of chaos they had humour throughout it, you are right.
Ever play 9th ed apocalypse? Best version of 40k they've ever released. Lots of players took that system and applied it to epic 40k.
Having designed several wargames I can shed some light on why inches work better for GW; GW games are all D6 based. Increments of 6 are better for wargaming more than increments of 15 (for CM). You can scatter things D6 and 2d6 or retreat D6 and it all works very well because all the dice are 1/2 foot. The standard size of a sheet of plywood is 4 feet wide, again that makes a perfect 12" deployment on each side and a 24" no mans land. That allows you to predictably control how fast the conflict in the game comes together.
Compelling arguments, but I'm not sure if they're the reasons. I really think it's just a leftover convention from the beginnings of wargaming, which hasn't changed because inches are larger and clearer units to use on a battlefield than centimetres (and there's no need to do any of the convoluted non-standardised math that the imperial system requires). Plenty of other games that don't use D6s still use inches - in fact I think just about every wargame does - the ones that use D10s didn't change to centimetres. And 'standard' sheets of anything vary depending on whether the country uses metric or imperial units.
I think that Andy Chambers (it may have been Rick Priestly... or Gav... ) has covered this in an interview. Americans don't like centimetres. GW wanted the American market, so they abandoned centimetres.
@@AdamWhitehead111 I'm sure that was a factor in GW's own case.
@@EsotericOrderGamers GW itself released several games in metric including Epic, Gothic, and Warmaster. But now they have pretty much settled on inches as their preferred unit due to the American market. The leftover convention of wargames past is the reliance on what used to be 25mm the most common miniature scale. A 25-30mm miniature looks just about right on a 25mm base that is preferred by a lot of games. 25mm is more or less exactly 1 inch. so it is much easier to make 1 base a scale of 1". That makes the math of common movements easy to figure. When you look at gaming as a whole often games that use metric are not 25mm scale. A lot of 10mm scale historicals, ships both space and water or non standard scales like a lot of Star Wars.
An interesting fact about standard plywood sheets. They actually ARE a standard in all western countries of 4x8 feet (US,UK) or 125x250cm (4'1"x8"2") Europe. This is why since the beginning, wargames have used 4 feet as the short side of the board. Only in the last 10 years have board sizes changed drastically unless they came with their own hex grid or something else.
@@HeadCannonPrime Interesting, cheers.
As an old timer original Space Marine player I’m looking forward to getting this. Agreed about the quality of the order tokens and lack of army cards in the box. I think this is the general thing now with everything, prices going up but getting less. It’s a shame but I suppose it is what it is. The models though do look very nice and certainly a lot better than the 1989 ones. I am looking forward to going back to my childhood memories with this and hope it does well enough to stick around (maybe enough to get those other Alien races). Anyway, thanks for the video and look forward to more. 👍
We'll look at the painted modes in the next video. The only problem is, they're so much better than the old ones it's hard not to spend *too* much time on them!
Great video!
A lot of people have said its meant to be more "historical", which is true, but theres a bit more to it than that!
Basically the Forge World team were made up of people with a background in military modelling. For example Phil Stucinskas who designed lots of HH vehicles is known for creating the "hairspray" weathering technique which can be seen in his Tiger tank which won the Euro Militaire best in show prize in 2006
These designers were obviously influenced by military modelling from the sculpting side of things, but at this point the Horus Heresy was such a small game that the sculptors had to paint the models themselves! So they also transferred a lot of their military modelling techniques like oil washes, enamels, chipping, weathering powders etc onto the models that featured in the rulebooks. The cover for Legions Imperialis is very similar to the blend of miniature photography and photoshop you see all over the original Horus Heresy Black Books and now the Age of Darkness books too.
This style gave the entire system a very grim and "realistic" tone compared to regular 40k, which is why it attracted lots of grognard types. And it didnt take long for this drab aesthetic to become completely synonymous in the setting. Pretty much everyone into 30k paints in this style to some extent.
I personally love it for all those reasons, but I totally understand why some aren't a fan. I also adore the vivid, colourful 40k style so i hope they go with an aesthetic closer to the original Epic if this system ever reaches the 41st millenium :)
That was interesting - I've never known much about Forge World (their prices are just about out of anyone's reach by the time they make it down under) so I didn't know that, it explains a lot. Cheers!
The old art was so much better. We live in the grim darkness of digital speed painting.
There's very much a 'house style' these days. No room for wonderful weirdos like Ian Miller anymore! 🤣
GW has chosen to have the HH image to look more like a Historical game, which is the reason for the more grim image I think.
Yeah, quite possibly, though historical is pretty funny given the scifi setting. 😆
Epic Armageddon was more than an extension of Epic. 40K. The backlash to E40K resulted in a totally redesigned game, pitched somewhere between 2nd and 3rd edition. For example, a major part of the rules is that each weapon has two profiles - anti infantry and anti armour, meaning that weapons can have a lot more differentiation (and avoiding a raft of rules that dictate weapon-target combinations like 'light', 'light at', etc). It moved away from the firepower tables of 3rd ed and returned to each weapon rolling for its effect individually.
Yeah, I knew that, but thanks for going into more detail. I liked the simplification of E40K, but I can understand many didn't.
well balanced and it seems very honest review. much appreciated!
myself I randomly on a whim bought some 3mm miniatures, which I think is an even better scale for this kind of game, since that way you really feel the insignificance of infantry and can field several titans without breaking the budget.
edit: would love for an comparison with your opinion on the rules compared to epic 40,000. In my opinion, this game seems very similar to epic 2nd edition, which ended up being VERY fiddly with every single unit type having their own stats and lots of special rules.
in epic 40,000, albeit a bit too streamlined at places, they did not even have a 'to hit' roll, they just go straight to roll for armour! I think that is neat.
I'll see what I can do after I've played it!
I think a quick combat/fight sequence is perfectly logical for an epic scale game! Epic 40,000 was pretty smart back in the day.
Absolutely!
You are so right in all your criticism, it's infuriating how much we are being taken advantage of as fans of this IP
I've probably watched a dozen IL unboxing-type videos. This is my favourite by far. I couldn't quite identify what I thought about the box art and graphic design and I like that there is a reduced focus on a few heroic individuals but this nailed it - it is just really uninspired and a bit dull. Good critique of the cardstock tokens, that is really poor, but also good to see that there is a ballanced view like praise for the models and the gameplay. I'm definitely in the old and borderline grognard category, but I don't think nostalgia should be the main selling point of this game - the visuals of small scale are different, the feel of battles is different, this could be sold as a way to make the epic battles of Warhammer seem, well, obviously, epic. Nice observation about the HH dominating the 40k backstory. I know the HH serise from black libruary is hugely successful but current era 40k is so backward-looking that it is in danger of consuming the grim dark future into its own grimdark futurepast. Loved the observations on the reference sheets and the overly verbose style the Mighty Games workshop has made choices to employ across the vastness of its rulebook publications. I think they have got James Workshop himself as their proofreader. I think the TLDR of this video is simple though - that despite their best efforts to the contrary, Legion Imperialis retains enough geneseed from the original Epic scale series to be a great game.
Thanks a million for those lovely compliments, and that excellent summary! Really appreciated. Yep, despite my niggles, it all comes down to whether it's fin to play or not, and we'll find out in future videos!
Thanks for the video - was waiting for your review :) An easy add for GW would be chaos daemons and that'd be something that would be useful in any future 40k Epic game too
Depends what era of the HH they're focusing on. As you don't see demons until near the end of that era.
That said, ti would be very, very good to see that :D Would love to see mini bloodthirsters.etc. on the battlefield :D
I haven't reviewed it properly yet! This is just an overview. More after I've played.
Agree that it’s odd to make a game designed to appeal to grognards with graphics that aren’t obviously reminiscent of the classic 90s mad artwork.
Tbh am still massively excited for this though - picking up my box on Saturday!
Enjoy!
I agree that the box (and book) cover isn't exciting. But I like it. I think that the art is nice and the design is elegant. Elegant isn't something that GW is really known for.
This may just be a case of failing to meet expectations.
Certainly, each to their own! Though I've been a graphic design for 35 years so I like to think I'm able to offer an opinion a bit influenced by that experience - on an objectively practical front if not a subjective aesthetic one. 😃
@EsotericOrderGamers I am aware of your experience (far greater than my own), and I respect your opinion, but I don't think that this is actually a bad looking design. It is more in keeping with the Horus Heresy books. Obviously, books aren't games, and a different design esthetic would normally be the correct choice... but if the target audience are fans of the books, then it makes sense to appeal to them directly. The same applies to the "The Age of Darkness" box, which has some similar design choices.
@@AdamWhitehead111 True, it's certainly consistent with that design, I'm just talking about my personal preferences. Though from a design point of view, the book is pretty dry reading. I thought Age of Darkness suffered from an attack of the blands too. But it seems to be the Horus Heresy house style! 😆
@EsotericOrderGamers I haven't read a new GW rulebook in quite a while. My biggest issue with GW rules writing that I have had in the past has been how imprecise they were. Far too open to interpretation. Which, of course, resulted in many FAQs (some of which contradicted each other). I totally understand your point about unnecessary "verbage."
My writing experience is academic, so I would probably be writing on the dryer side (although I was told that my undergraduate dissertation was "enjoyable" to read 🤷♂️).
I liked the video, I do have a few comments about some of the points you raised.
The Heresy graphic design for me stand far above the cartoon style of 40K, it’s far closer the the more gritty style of art from Space Marine (1989). It follows on from the style in the Imperial Armour books which has been extremely popular. Honestly, the 40K Epic box art for me was one of the reasons for the product failure, It was too stylised.
This game is designed to appeal to the wargamers who are fed up with 40K, it’s a retention game like the rest of the Heresy series (and WTOW). They released Xenos for AI and they sold extremely poorly. The 40K studio were never going to make a this game, this is a FW/SG game, who can take more risks. I would love to see them at a later date however, even if it’s just orks and Eldar. Though I do worry about faction bloat and balance which 40K suffers from immensely.
Finally, I’m glad they didn’t add the cards. They are not needed to play the game (terrain is a bigger miss) and I prefer the price of the box without them.
Interesting points, thankyou, and that's my new favourite nomenclature - a 'retention game'! 🤣
The cover style of Epic40,000 is very similar to that of Warhammer 40K at the time though (ie John Blanche), I don't think it would have affected its success. It was just because players found it to simplified. To me and some other this made for a better game, but to many others it compromised the feeling and granular detail of 40K.
As for the cards - well I guess I end up redesigning them all anyway!
IMHO, when comparing the Epic 40,000 is bright and cartoony; while the Legions Imperialis is darker, grim and more serious looking. I stopped playing Epic when they went from the square infantry bases to the long rectangle bases. I have no problems with with box art. The original Space Marine Epic was pretty nice too.
Excellent video and great history of gw. Love the excitement.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it mate.
I've read a couple of dozen of the Horus Heresy novels covering the first part of the Heresy and I've yet to read anything about the Solar Auxilia, I think they must be a recent addition to the game/fluff because they aren't mentioned in any of those older novels.
Yeah, good old Imperial Guard foot soldiers would have been nice.
They were introduced in the Forge World Black Books if I recall. For the original Horus Heresy releases.
@@EsotericOrderGamers In Horus Heresy times there was the "Imperial Army" which was basically the same as the Imperial Guard, but they have quite interesting fluff, as they were often depicted as the support for the Space Marine Legions and often came from worlds that had only recently been rediscovered during the Great Crusade.
Interesting video, if I have time later I will come back with some thoughts. But I have a question, some people think the delay was down to those shitty counters. Did they have counters in the original box you were sent? If they did, what were they like?
No, the counters were the same. Actually I can confirm that it was due to a phrase in the original book that, on first glance, seemed innocuous, but also could have been linked to an extremely offensive organisation. I won't bother going into more specific detail, but while I'm sure it was a coincidence, GW certainly took decisive action to make sure the link could never be drawn, and I applaud them for that.
I agree with everything you said. This entire product has limited appeal with human vs human and a huge missed opportunity. The Heresy is already a subset of 40k players. This is going to be a subset of a subset. What made epic so cool is you could take your 40k faction and make it HUGE in epic. You can't afford a thousand pound forgeworld titan, how about one for 30? How about 10 Leman Russ tanks for the price of one in 40k? The recommended buy in for LI is astronomical! If you are meant to buy multiple starter sets just to play, why include a full hardback book but NO UNIT CARDS? The best GW starters come with the half size paperback rules with all the stats and sell the hardback separate.
You didn't really go into it but the ridiculous amount special rules per model and PER WEAPON is obnoxious in an epic scale game. Epic Armageddon you could write the entire unit stat on one line of paper, a whole army was half a page and it had maybe 6 keywords from memory: Reinforced, Macro, Titan Killer, Ignore Cover, Indirect. They took a great system and crammed too much of what makes modern 40k bad into it.
I'll go into all this further when I've had a chance to play, and see if the special rules really get in the way of a good game or not.
I imagine they will eventually expand it to 40k
@@drguineapig8755 Yeahhhh ... I wouldn't count on it. I think you can safely bet on them keeping Epic in the 30K melieu. Expanding it into all the other factions would be a huge commitment, and I just don't think there's enough epic players out there.
@@EsotericOrderGamers you’d be surprised. Just look at how quickly the preorder sold out.
@@EsotericOrderGamers I for one would 100% buy it if there was the possibility of other factions being added down the line. The sheer majesty of witnessing a huge Imperial army facing off against a nightmarish horde of Ork's with their immense Gargant's blasting away or an enormous swarm of Tyranids with terrifying bio-titans stomping towards your frontlines is something thats always captured my imagination and set it ablaze. To me its what W40K is all about and I wouldn't hesitate to jump on board if they bring that feeling back. I know I'm not the only one either.
The "More *_PØLlTlCALLY CHÅRGED_*_ Speech,"_ The Better. This is 30/40K, not 8K*!!! (i.e. _Age of _*_§triƒe_* )
I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're obviously far more versed in W40K background material than I am.
I mean... on the one hand "too much bumf and fluff" on the other "to dry" 😂
I'm biased though, I think its marvelous
I'm kinda taking about different things there, but nevermind! 🤣
Great review, thanks! I still have my old order counters which have survived (and are better designed!) from the 2nd edition game so will just re-use those! 😊 Completely get your point on the art style - I think its a choice, GW has plenty of talented artists and you see their work in the new 40k and Sigmar releases all the time. But maybe they just thought us oldies dont need our imaginations firing any more! 😄
Ah, good idea - older counters!
The old epic 40,000 box was so much more exciting. Blasts and booms everywhere. This appeared to be refleceted with the blast markers in game. I watched a battle report of imperialis and it seemed rather dull.
I did love the blast markers.
Aeronautica Imperialis is a fun game, you should give it a try, very simple rules, it's a bit board-gamey but you might like that aspect. Though, they've discontinued the aliens and are now only selling Marines and Imperials, which gets rid of the asymmetric combat aspect that was fun (e.g. Orks and Eldar were short ranged specialists, while Imperials were medium ranged specialists, so each player is trying to achieve something different... now everything that remains is basically a medium ranged specialist).
Hmmm - you haven't really sold it to me then. 🤣
@@EsotericOrderGamers Haha, I'm still bitter about them discontinuing the xenos factions. It's the game I'm actively playing the most because there's enough tactical depth to keep people interested after many games, the hex map lets you play games fast (about an hour for a small dogfight), and a new player can pick up the rules quickly. So for games in the evening after work, it's perfect, we can knock out 2 or 3 games on a week night.... losing the Eldar/Orks/Tau is annoying, but if you're picking up a few planes for Legions Imperialis anyway, give it a go!
Great work as usual Peter
Cheers mate!
How big are those counters? I have loads of spare base to they fit on to a certain size? if they do, ill glue them down and laminate or varnish the top
They're almost 18mm in diameter.
I have two major problems with Legions Imperialis. Firstly, I don't understand the decision to set it in HH, and thus excluding so many interesting factions. Secondly, I think they should have based it on Epic Armageddon, which IMO is their best epic rules system, instead of basically making a reprint of 2nd edition.
The box art, though, is very nice. You are wrong there, Esoteric.
Friendly suggestion - when you express your opinion about artwork don't tell people with a differing opinion that they are 'wrong'.
Incredibly interesting review which hits all the right notes. I've wanted to torture all the GW Hierarchy since the demise of Epic, which I loved. I will buy into this game ....... Why they've gone to Horus heresy is totally beyond me. BRING BACK JERVIS JOHNSON to stuff some common sense into the aforesaid GW Hierarchy, because they haven't got a clue.
Thankyou so much for saying that - but for the rest, I done not condone torture (or dragging back game designers from retirement who have no doubt earned a nice long rest) in any way, shape, or form! 🤣
Buddy, let's see how it all pans out - I so much want this to be a sucsess @@EsotericOrderGamers
Thanks for the review.
You're most welcome - painted minis and play reviews coming in the future!
I'll play if we get other races. Until then I'll follow its progress.
I'll be surprised if they introduce them now we're in 30K land, but here's hoping!
I think some old guys need to do a deep dive on the various editions of rules. This does not yet seem to have the bloat you see in Space Marine2/Net Epic Gold style rules but you can see more that the issue is no rules if no models as every single AT model and weapon option is there and different. The titan rules while supporting all those weapons seem to even lack the critical hits let alone any damage charts or such. The weapon list is huge and unit specific so you have to print the data sheets. Epic Armeggadon is a great game but is likely to abstract for standard gw players since many things they expect (like bolters being shot in ranged combat as opposed to only firefights in assaults will seem odd).
If there's one thing every GW will have, it's a long list of special abilities!
@@EsotericOrderGamers Would have loved a d10 system here. Makes it easier to have differences in units without all the special rules.
@@bradp6452 GW do love their D6s!
@@EsotericOrderGamers Yes, but they know other shapes exist. They even made d16s for blood bowl and Blackstone fortress has an array of shapes but not breaking them of d6s.
@@bradp6452 True, but will they make anything else other than a D6 the basis of one of the big tabletop minis games? Well, never say never, but probably not.
I played the original Space Marine when I was in high school. This is just a modern take on it but still very close to the original. I’m really stoked to be getting back into this game. I prefer the more ‘realistic’ grim dark take to be honest. What’s really different this time is the beautiful terrain they’re selling and the fact that now I’m a mature adult with a good job, I can afford to buy it all!
It requires a good income, certainly!
@@EsotericOrderGamers lol
Space Marines vs Slightly Less Boring Space Marines! .... snorefest.
Having been a buyer of the OG Titanicus and Space Marine (and I don't plan to buy L.Imperialis), I think you have a slightly rose-tinted view of the old boxes with some nostalgia-flavoured garnish. I don't think the cartoony look of the artwork of the 80s & 90s would appeal to many modern buyers who didn't go in GW stores back then. A multi-multi million pound company is necessarily going to have a more corporate look now. But....., I am very pleased you still have some of those inviting old box lids to display for us because mine are long gone.
For me, this is just another very expensive game - and I have lotsa them. No terrain in the box and £30 for boxes of tiny tanks. I have to let it pass me by and live vicariously on YT.
Oh I'm not saying I'm super keen about the cartoony art, that's definitely of its time. But I do think a bit of fun and humour is an essential ingredient. I think the cover of the new edition says it all. It's in deadly earnest, which I personally find a bit dull.
BTW Just found out it's NZ$360 here, which - I can't believe I'm saying this - isn't too bad in comparison with other big box releases. Still crazy money, but not super-freakin'-crazy. 🤪
@@EsotericOrderGamersDull, corporate and expensive (if you want terrain and a decent-sized game), but they still can't proof-read a manual! For me, the camel's back is broken - and I have enough GWS stuff. I don't sense much humour from Nottingham or in their stores anymore. I will watch your upcoming content though.
Yeah, don't disappear!
you had the book. what was in the book??????
Let's just move on, who cares!
Love the cover...😅
Such is the rich tapestry of life, there's always something who has exactly the opposite opinion! 😆
Just to cover all our bases: I think the box cover is perfectly OK! :)
These things are subjective (well, to a point) ..!
Kinda sursprised that no one's labeled this an "Epic fail" 😁😈
That's a bit harsh Andy!
@@EsotericOrderGamers yeah, it really is, isn't it? :D I don't actually have any horses in this race, having never played the original, but I definitely share in a lot of the confusion out there about why gw removed all the xenos races in favour of the HH setting. Given the mass interest for an Epic remake (especially one that could have tied into existing Aeronautical models) I don't really understand the choice to situate the game where they have - maybe because they don't intend to support this long term with all the releases multi-factions would require? What are your thoughts on their decisions, Peter?
I think all their decisions are economic ones, and releasing multiple xenon factions would probably too much of a commitment to a game which is always going to have a tiny fraction of the number of players that W40K does. So they kept it very manageable.
I love the artwork on the box it looks very realistic
First edition epic was a better game than Rogue Trader, I played it more as well.
I’m personally more fond of the modern graphics.
I don’t think stores have the shelf space for all the modern 40k range redone in 8mm.
But they'd only need tiny shelves! 🤣
Teeny tiny horus heresy, yawn, not interested until I can recreate Waaagh Ghazgull and the war on Armaggedon
Modern GW art is extremely uninspiring.
It makes me sound like a bit of an old fogey, but compared to the pre-2000 stuff, I tend to agree with you.
Some of the newer art is very nice. The 9th edition 40k codex art for Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus are gorgeous. It's clear the artist who did those was given far more creative leeway than usual.
@@kglguy That's good to hear.
The funny thing is they have got some amazing new artwork in the 40k and Sigmar releases. But for whatever reason they have just chosen to make the Heresy stuff as dull as possible! :D
definitely far to expensive. Especially I compare it to an awaken realms game or a cmon game. Heck it’s TI4 cost!
It's a GW game. They're always very expensive, and getting more minis to stage decent battles will cost lots more.
You seem to need two sets to even really play the game. Without 2 sets of marine infantry you cannot legally play both types of tanks (or having to buy kratos tanks). Not even sure if 2 sets gets you to enough points to legally play the warhounds.
Yeah, I guess they added up the cost of 2 legal armies in one starter set and it came to, I dunno, 1200 dollars or something. 🤣
There is a core set intro formation that allows you to use what is in the box.
@@HandofBlake Yeah. That is a joke response to making a bad starter box contents.
@@EsotericOrderGamers The 3000 point standard game I think is unreasonable. I think that number was chosen such that all the different titans can be used. I think that is like a 4 to 5 hour game. 1250 seems to be a reasonable starting point for a real game. 300 for a demo. 750 for quick game.
@@bradp6452 You're right, they're giving a number for a decent sized battle with titans there, for sure.
Epic 30000 is the best version
Again, a completely subjective thing - but it's my favourite too. We'll see how this one plays!
I absolutely prefer the newer box, my 2 shekels.
I'm a child of my time, obviously!
No you're not, you obviously just have a level of appreciation for aesthetics 😂