Carbon Monoxide Detectors-When Zero Doesn't Mean Zero
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ม.ค. 2020
- Watch 3 carbon monoxide (CO) detectors react to increasing levels of CO. All 3 detectors do a great job, but the professional grade detector is the most sensitive (because it costs more/and therefore should be more sensitive). Always read the owner's manual that comes with the CO detector so you know its operating characteristics. I suggest that you always take a CO detector with you when you travel. And if you are a scientist like myself, carry a professional grade detector with you at all times (perhaps 2 CO detectors--am I over-cautious?). 400 people die in the U.S. every year by accidental CO poisoning (and I don't know the world-wide death rate???). Of course you know CO is odorless and colorless and binds to hemoglobin with an affinity 200X that of oxygen. Hence it is called the "silent killer".
They are actually intended for completely different purposes. The home detectors are intentionally time/concentration oriented per a UL requirement. This is done to prevent 911 calls for transient conditions. The one on the left is of the type you desire for spot checking. One thing to note is that the alarms, while loud, are at a high frequency that many elderly people may not be able to hear.
The Kidde unit I have states in the manual that it doesn't start displaying a reading until it reaches 40ppm, and that is basically what your video shows. A consumer grade product is never going to be as accurate or precise as a certified commercial grade product, which I would hope everyone knows, and they tend to also have a longer lag time between reading changes. One factor they take into account is the risk of false positives at very low levels whereby the homeowner starts to believe the device is defective and throws it away. At any particular time you may find very low levels of CO if your home burns any kind of fuel (natural gas, propane, wood, etc.), and having a device warn you every time a transitory low reading is encountered would once again confuse the typical homeowner. It's a similar problem to an overly sensitive smoke and fire detector; when they false alarm too often the homeowner just turns them off. So I have no problem with how the Kidde device is designed. If I wanted to check for very low levels in my home, I would obtain a laboratory meter just like anyone else with a science background would. I believe a detector that only costs $20 to $40 and alarms before levels reach dangerous levels is a good compromise for the average consumer. BTW, I don't remember hearing any of the devices actually sound an alarm. Did you have the alarms disabled?
I totally agree with your statement above. I hope any visitors to this video read your comments. The background noise overshadowed the alarms. If you listen carefully, the left detector is beeping at the higher levels.
@@rodallrich8801 The TLDR summary: You won't die when there's a little bit of CO in the air but you may freak out if the meter says there is any. That's why it doesn't show a number until you get to 35-50PPM - The End
@@bdi3798 That said, people have suffered from long-term low-level carbon monoxide poisoning whereby they've experienced constant headaches/ migraines, serious brain fog or nausea due to a very small leak from their boiler, something that would be hard to diagnose without anything to tell you there's a small amount of CO in the air continually. I think consumer-grade units are fine when acting as a last line of defence against potential death, but I'm coming around to the idea of placing one of those on the landing area of the house, and a faster-acting one in the kitchen. I came across a company that offers consumer-looking models which activate at around 25ppm (albeit at more than double the price), and frankly I'd rather know early-on that there may be a problem with our boiler. PS. the point of having a landing alarm would be just in-case there's a sudden, larger leak of CO, and the kitchen alarm can't be heard from the bedroom i.e. the former would activate much later, but by then it's absolutely critical that you wake-up and do something about it.
@@soots-stayingoutofthespotl5495 There's a reason companies publish a users guide (AKA the manual). It says it will show you lower levels of CO but not raise the alarm (in other parts of the manual per UL standards). So it's there, just designed not to freak everyone out:
"Peak Level Memory
When the Peak Level button is pressed and held, the display shows the
highest CO reading taken by the CO alarm since its last reset or power
up. The Peak Level display feature will display levels between 11-999
PPM. Although the Peak Level feature will display levels below 30 PPM,
these levels will not result in an alarm no matter how long the device is
exposed to these levels. The Peak Level feature is helpful in identifying if
you have had a CO reading since resetting the alarm.
Concentrations of CO between 1 and 30 PPM can often occur in nor-
mal, everyday conditions. Concentrations of CO below 30 PPM may be
an indication of a transient condition that may appear today and never
reappear. Some CO conditions may start out as low level leaks but could
develop into CO concentrations that may become harmful."
@@bdi3798 I appreciate that the manufacturers of these things don't want people to panic, but the problem with citing a particular manual is that not all units have a digital display, so there's no way of knowing about low background levels of CO. I accept that such units would sound an alarm if the levels were to reach, say, 50ppm (in the case of the model that I currently own), however the WHO's recommended limits for indoor levels are 9-10 ppm for no more than 8 hours and 25-35 ppm for no more than 1 hour, the ASHRAE safety limit is similar at 9ppm, and the NIOSH REL is 35ppm over 8 hours. Basically, in a household like ours with a gas boiler only (so no gas stove/ oven, nor any gas fires, and no woodburner), I'd rather know early-on about background levels in the 25-50 range, which would surely indicate a likely boiler fault and could lead to the low-level poisoning symptoms I mentioned above. Why don't manufacturers of these devices just give the customer switchable options, even if they default to the usual 'we'll only bother you if you're in danger of dying' settings?
The catch with these detectors is that they have a long lag time before they give alarms about 10-50 mins depending on the level of Carbon Monoxide.
...And here is the problem with these types of detectors... 10-50 minutes, and then the levels drop a few points, and the alarm re-sets itself, and starts the 10-50 minutes all over again, and if that keeps happening, then a person could be exposed to a low amount of ppm CO for days, weeks or even months at a time, until they die, and most of the time, it is disregarded as the flu, and that happens a lot. These types of monitors is not at all reliable for safety. You need a legitimate digital low-level CO meter, so that you will always know the concentration of CO no mater how small the amount, or and also a meter for CO2 is very much needed as well.
I didn’t hear you address the lack of alarm with these. Did I miss you mentioning that? I thought I paid close attention throughout the demonstration. I am certain though that these things never alarmed. If I had a heating system malfunction in the middle of the night while asleep, none of these 3 units would wake anyone up and my family would slowly get poisoned by the CO. What good is that?
How hazardous carbon monoxide exposure is, is a function of both concentration and time. Exposure to carbon monoxide at 50ppm is only hazardous after 10 hours, by which the alarm will sound. In comparison, exposure at 400ppm is hazardous after 8 minutes.
Cheers! And happy holidays!
This is from my users manual:
70 ppm = 60-240 min
150 ppm = 10-50 min
400 ppm = 4-15 min
Lol! got 2 of the ones on the left!, (older house) Wheres the alarm!!... If it isn't showing low reads, it should at least set off an alarm when it does sense something ASAP! At least on the one i want for myself! Thanks alot for testing
For the one on the left (the SensorCon) can you leave it on 24/7 for around the house use, and if so how long does the battery last if it runs constantly? Can you use it lets say right next to your bed on the nightstand and leave it on for months/years at a time?
Visit their website for complete info. Some monitors say "2 year battery life". That would be 24/7. Be aware it is very sensitive and in a home you should have one CO detector on each level of the house. Get the digital readout kind from Walmart of similar type as the middle detector.
And with the Sensorcon, you could take it to friends houses and help them see if CO is a problem. The Sensorcon is very sensitive, so be aware of that. So the best advice is to consult with your HVAC people.....
I bought a kiddle carbon monoxide detector and I put it near my bed on my nightstand. My bed is near another side of the furnace (the wall of the furnace) with the furnace opening located on the other side of the wall - in another room. The furnace is closed but my monitor sometimes reads 10-12 ppm and then goes back to 0.. then reads 10-12 ppm again sometimes. Maybe there's a leak somewhere but the 10-12 ppm of CO doesn't seem to be constant. I don't know if I should worry or not. I don't have the money to fix the furnace. I keep the top of the furnace opened so the air flows out to the chimney not just leaks into my bedroom. But still, seeing 10-12 ppm every now and then worries me. My mom thinks it's a non-existing problem so I can't call anyone over to look at it. I'm scared to sleep sometimes.
It won’t ever show it it’s under 10, so it could be at 8 or 9 some of the other times
Is the unit on the left appropriate for home use? If so, do you mount it? Leave it on a counter? Or is this unit strictly for commercial use? We are looking for something for home use - since I babysit our grandchildren often. We had a near tragedy in our family last year (relatives in another state) and it heightened our awareness of CO exposure. We have one ten year combo Smoke/CO detector but would like to upgrade. Thank you.
Wonderful question. Please be aware that my following answer reflects my risk-averse nature and teaching environmental physiology for over 20 years. And a recent influence--the seven people in Moorhead, MN (my hometown) that died of CO poisoning on Dec. 18th (2021). Answer---Have a CO detector in each bedroom and one in the living room. The detectors should have a digital readout and a "peak button". The left detector in this video is meant to wear on your shirt (or always be close to you). So its alarm is not loud (and it vibrates). But I would have one around since it is very sensitive and has a fast response time. And the one on the left is very portable. I take it in my car, take it to class, and send it with my wife when she travels and uses hotel rooms. Just Google---CO deaths hotels. My suggestions may sound excessive, but only total to about $250-300 for a 3 bedroom home (and the detectors last for years). Get the detectors that plug into a wall socket and have a battery backup within (I don't like the combo detectors, smoke/CO). The density of CO is very close to that of air, so the wall socket type work great to view the digital readout. CO binds to your hemoglobin 200X stronger than O2. That is what makes it so dangerous. That's my story and I am sticking to it........
@@rodallrich8801 I work in the ER and each week in the winter we get one CO exposure. I have one for my truck and a couple for my home.
It is and it isn't... CO levels under 35PPM isn't necessarily dangerous so home CO detectors show zero because if they showed even a 1, then people would be freaking the F out all the time and calling 911 even when they shouldn't.
So if you know you're safe in the 1-35PPM range when there aren't any beeps maybe it's OK... But also the professional meters (not detectors) don't have the 85dB loud alarm that could wake you up at 4 in the morning...
Just go buy a home one - that's what they're for!
They should in fact show readings, I've tried purposefully choking the fire and opening the hatch, so it would smoke indoors and the alarm still read 0, how am I supposed to know it even works, and for the price, I'd call it a rip off, you want to know if you are doing things right and keeping the levels low, not just have the shitter beep at you before you die.
@@bdi3798Low levels, even under 35 ppm, build up in your body, if you're constantly in that building, I just went through 2 months of tiredness, headaches, light headed, foggy thinking, bloodshot eyes, wanting to sleep constantly, and did on 3 different days, slept all day, and it turns out my heat exchanger is leaking on a 4 year old Carrier furnace, I have 4 CO detectors, and 1 with a read out, and non detected anything, it's been a week, and it took me 48 hours before I started feeling normal again.
Do you have a link for the black one , most accurate one or make model etc. I have the one in the middle , but would like the black one for my travels.
sensorcon-sensing-products-by-molex.myshopify.com/pages/co-collection?variant=4193480964
www.rodallrich.com/Sensor.JPG
@@rodallrich8801 Thank-you Sir
What bothers me is, there doesn’t seem to be a direct correlation with the read outs amongst the three units.
The two white units have a much longer response time as compared to the black unit. So the white units are always lagging behind in their response. In addition, the chamber never reached a steady-state. During the recording, CO levels were increasing (starting at about 0 ppm) for the most part. So to get a correlation that you seek, you would have 3 identical detectors (say 3 black units), and let them sit in a chamber with constant CO levels. Over time, the 3 black units should have similar CO values. If you let the current 3 different detectors reach a steady (which I didn't), I would predict they still wouldn't have a good correlation because of the differences in the sensitivity of the detectors. Another thing that I didn't control for; air movement around each detector. If I made another video, I would put each detector on a pedestal, and separate them from each other.....Many thanks for your comment....
Seems like the one on the right isn't getting a lot of airflow I could be wrong
What are the names and model numbers of the detectors?
Left - IDK
Middle -Kidde KN-COPP-3
Right - First Alert CO710
HELP!! thank you for the education! I live in a 100 year old 4 plex.. recently found out my heater was illegally installed .. it had a major leak.. of course none of the alarms went off.. (i usually keep a window or door cracked open) landlords wont get the other heaters or vents inspected.. although i made them aware that at least 1 of the flues are partially blocked.. I am sure at least 1 neighbor has an illegally installed heater.. i got horrible headaches and very high TVOC readings when I went in to let her dog out. the neighbors say there isn't a problem.. my gas heater is gone .. yet i am still seeing a pattern when the other heaters come on.. i get ringing in my ears and brain fog really bad. I just got the defender detector. I wonder which one will be effective at reading picking up CO that is coming from neighboring unit with shared walls..or upstairs that is not venting correctly? I can't get the owners to do anything. how do I prove this is what is happening? my air monitor has a definite pattern of high TVOCs at specific times of day.. when i open doors and windows TVOC decrease drastically.. that air monitor and high TVOC levels was how I learned about the CO leak in my heater. thank you
It sounds like you have a problem for sure, and thank you for putting your story here. If I were in your situation (sorry but I am such an advocate for knowing CO and CO2), I would call my local fire department, and apprise them of your situation (but try not to sound hysterical about it LOL). I would think that they would also be very concerned about your story, and would send someone to you to do some serious testing for your peace of mind if nothing else, but if what you say is really happening (and I only say it like that because I have reviewed faked monitors, and getting ready to review a couple more), then I would hope that the fire department would make sure that the issues you are having are corrected, and not just for you, but for your other neighbors as well. By contacting the fire department, you could be saving more than just your own life...
If you can't get the fire department interested in checking things out for you on your word only, then try to find someone who has meters also, and see if they would be willing to come to your house and do some testing, so then there would be more than just you with data about your situation, and that may make it more plausible to the fire department to investigate further. You have to understand something also, there are allot of people that make frantic phone calls every year, that turn out to be nothing, so after a while, and unfortunately - a fire department starts to become numb to a call because of so many false positives, so please keep that in mind when you talk to someone, and let them know that you understand that there are allot of calls that turn out to be nothing, but that you are truly concerned for not only your safety, but the safety of all your neighbors as well, and just maybe your concern for others over yourself, just might be what it takes for the fire department to send someone out to you to help...
Hope this has helped in your cry for help, and will be praying that you get some answers. God bless
P.S - the symptoms that you are describing, are symptoms from CO poisoning. Believe me, I nearly died from CO and CO2 poisoning about 6 years ago, so I do believe that God allowed me to go through that for who knows - - maybe you and your neighbors...
Ok so one of our kidde nighthawk carbon monoxide-gas detectors had a false alarm recently, it displayed "gas" but there was nothing, is this a common malfunction? I figure you might know.
I do not know how often that may occur. I don't like monitors that detect more than one type of gas. If that type of monitor fails/malfunctions, now you are unable to detect 2 kinds of gas. CO is out there more than most people think. See this very excellent website that tracks CO poisonings: www.ncoaa.us/copy-of-victims
@@rodallrich8801 I can't say if it is malfunctioning that badly. I plan to test it when I get the proper test kits to see if maybe it just got some dust in it or something, I cleaned it after the false alarm, so I guess we'll have to see what happens then.
Is kidde worth buying RV?
Good video. But that is truly pathetic, that these things will not alert unless a person is being actively gassed out for a number of HOURS. At 15ppm. i'd want to know what the heck is going on.
I have to say an Amen to that - thanks, and now I feel as it is not just me that takes this stuff seriously LOL... 👍👍
I have one on basement digital screen when i clock peek leval said 12 that’s normal?
I would hit reset, so the peak then reads 0, right after reset. Then I would hit peak every other day for a while. If peak never goes higher than 12, all should be OK. If peak ever goes higher than 15, I would look for a CO source. Never have just one CO detector in a house.
I was waiting for you to be quiet LOL
I was laughing my ass off every time he said I’m going to stop talking now Bahahahaha! Great video
Same here! Obviously talking off-script. ;-)
I see all 3 detectors are registering different ppm
All 3 detectors have different response rates and different sensitivities..so you would not expect them to have similar readings at any given moment in time...as true CO concentrations are in an increasing mode...for most of the video...
I had a different model with readout in my garage, it would read 30 while my golfcart with lead acid batteries was changing.
wow - thank you for that bit of information. I do these types of videos, and this will be great for a new video to do. I just used my handheld CO meter around my 12v battery for my back-up system, and it went to about 50ppm when I put the meter on top of the battery, so yes, charging a lead acid battery puts off CO (and I didn't even know that) - incredible to know. But also know this, I have had this setup in my studio for nearly 4 years now, and my CO never goes above 0, except for once in a while, it will jump to around 11-25 and back down again, so now I know why that is happening. The CO that is put off by charging the battery would take an incredible amount of time to saturate the air in your house because of normal (even small amounts) of ventilation, and would hopefully not pose a risk unless your house was hermetically sealed. So as long as you have adequate ventilation - but then again - just maybe that is not a healthy attitude right?, but now also I understand why it is said that you should never charge a lead acid battery in your house LOL. Wow, - isn't it weird how a little bit of extra information can make us feel so dumb, like right now, I feel so dumb for not knowing this - especially from all the research I have done on air quality. This is the first time I have ever come across any information about this, so thank you again for mentioning your situation, as it has led me to some very very interesting data - much appreciated, and will now have something else I can pass along to my viewers. You my friend, are a God send that is for sure... 👍👍👍
And thank God for this video as well, because that is what led me to read your comment, and that is why we should always speak our mind, because even when it seems to be insignificant, what we have to say - could change someones life for sure - - or - save it... I now, am going to have to re-think my back-up setup, and see if I can't move my batteries to a new location out of my studio, and again I have to give you another 👍 for this information.
Edit: Sorry, I just found out that charging a Lead acid battery puts off Hydrogen Sulfide gas, which is also a colorless and odorless gas that causes a CO monitor to activate and go nuts, and several institutions maintain that a battery does not put off CO gas, so I am still learning, but learning is one of the things I love to do the most. Just like Johnny 5 - I need more input....
How about pin a comment with the make/model of all three? I had to read down quite a way to find that.
Low levels, even under 30 ppm, build up in your body, if you're constantly in that building, I just went through 2 months of tiredness, headaches, light headed, foggy thinking, bloodshot eyes, wanting to sleep constantly, and did on 3 different days, slept all day, and it turns out my heat exchanger is leaking on a 4 year old Carrier furnace, I have 4 CO detectors, and 1 with a read out, and non detected anything, it's been a week, and it took me 48 hours before I started feeling normal again.
This is so idiotic. The normal concentration of CO2 in the air is 421 ppm. I don't know what these devices are measuring but it is not the CO2 concentration. Perhaps they are calibrate so 421 ppm is zero but if so that should be stated in the instructions. CO2 concentration in exhaled breath is from 30,000 to 50,000 ppm. Exhaled breath saves lives when doing CPR. It takes a lot of CO2 to kill someone. Definitely not 30 ppm. Plants need at least 100 ppm to live.
@@user-zp5vj2bl8o You're confusing Carbon Dioxide CO2, with Carbon Monoxide CO.
@@user-zp5vj2bl8o You are Correct!, you don't know what these devices are measuring, because it's Carbon Monoxide CO they measure, not Carbon Dioxide CO2.
And again you are correct!, that is so idiotic, to confuse the two gases.
Well then again kidde isn’t a very dependable brand, you’re better off with the first alert
I find it strange that the Kidde model mostly reads about twice the SensorCon model, despite the SensorCon supposedly being much more sensitive. They're right next to each other so given their proximity the SensorCon should be readying much higher. The proof is that the third one is also reading higher than the SensorCon. For the price of that "professional" model I'd probably go with the Kidde because that's what I can afford. Dependability goes out the window if the pro model can't accurately read ambient levels.
I thought the alarms would go off if got Togo off 300 were doom and the kiddie is dumb and it start 50were doom and how come you don’t put names on them
this is great.. 155 and no alarm
Laundry day?
Too bad there is no app with the kidde
That would be a great enhancement....!!!!!
Sounds like u gotta washer going