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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
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My main problems with Nasu's works, especially his modern ones can be categorised into 4 topics: Retcons, story inconsistenties, flanderization of characters and plot induced stupidity.
These aren't actual criticisms. They're literally pop criticisms created by the internet cause media literacy is horrible.
Because its all about milking the franchise and less about plot coherency. Fate is just like another Marvel
Personally, I'm a huge fan of Nasu. I really enjoyed the Fate VN and went through all of it while getting the bad ends as well because even the bad ends are INTERESTING! Out of the lost belts, the british lost belt is my favorite and again Nasu was the writer for it.
I haven't read notes nor the other vns that came before stay night, so i feel like im not fully qualified to talk about this topic but i will still put in my two cents. While i have no complaints about Nasu writing personally, IF i was asked what i dislike about his writing it would probably be that i feel like he tends to hold my hand a lot while i read his works, that rather than being told a story it feels more like I'm having him guide me along the events.
Explain. I don't get what you mean when that sounds like you don't like first person narration or specifically when an MC has a view you don't agree with.
My problem with Nasu works is him pretending to be smarter than he really is. He give impression that he have magical system and rules for his works establish and readers are only shown glimpses of this with his stories but it is not true. There will be made retcon or excuse to break any rule he feels like it. Lots of fancy words to name and rank things but it in reality is pretending that there is some order to the things. Separately stories are interesting but trying to make them part of one continuity really brings it down. Change to the list of Dead Apostle Ancestors is for me final proof that he don't have things planned out but simply makes them as he go. Magic system of nasuverse is not convoluted. It is nonexistent and simple collection of half explained rules that gathered over the years.
I kinda could already tell that. I think hes just having fun with the story and does whatever pops up in a given moment.
Yeah, I love calling everything I don't understand pretentious too
Agreed 👍 Nasu really often times makes up rules and fancy names/ranks to sound deep, but actually amounts to nothing. The entire Dead Apostle hierarchy is a good example of this.
I personally like detailed writing even if it has complexities to it. Thats what kept me sticking around for this series since i watched Fate Stay Night in 2020.
One thing I dislike is the constant usage of the self sacrificing character who ended up betrayed by the people they were trying to save and aren't angry that they were betrayed.
Also, I dislike how Nasu will have other characters criticise shirou for putting other happiness above his own/risking his life for others and then he will have shirou self doubt. In the end no one stops him and he continues doing the same thing he was criticized for and he even gets rewarded for it. Fate route is especially notorious imo.
Also, maybe I missed something but ubw rubs me the wrong way because when an older version of a character goes back in time to chnage something then you know there's a problem. Archer knew how bad being a counter guardian was and the consequences thereof but after losing to shirou he's "reinspired" and shirou goes on the be a hero in the same self destructive way. Seriously, what was Archer raging about for most of the route if he was just going to accept his fate at the last minute? And yes I know people love to say ubw Rin will prevent shirou from being like archer but in all honesty why would she spent the rest of her life monitoring shirou? It's not her burden imo.
Lastly, I'm annoyed with how little screen time sakura got in the other two routes. Rin and artoria got good moments in all three but sakura only gets hf. It's even worse when you learn of her upbringing and it makes me wonder of her fate in the other routes. I guess this is an issue of visual novel's in general as heroines aren't important outside their routes and spoilers need to be avoided.
Lastly, nasu ought to tone down the trolley problems. It was impactful at first but now it's down right ridiculous. The mcs having a severe case of sunk cost syndrome doesn't help.
sorry but shirou is the only one nasu has written to be that way.
@@en-voguepugh3472 It's just that other fate works also include this type of character such as Amakusa, Jeanne, to an extent Artoria, and several others. I will agree that shirou is the most developed among them.
@@thirdplanet4471well, those aren't really such great examples, Jeanne is a literal Saint, Amakusa shows a decent bit of rage about how it went down (whilst also being somewhat a saint), and Artoria pretty much despises mordred, whilst showing immense regret over the end of her life/legend
@@en-voguepugh3472 Angra Maynu
@@thirdplanet4471 Most of the protagonists are as far from that as possible. Take Shiki or Aoko for example
It's difficult to appreciate the evolution of a Nasu who was making a doujin visual novel for comiket with his friends over two decades ago with the current man. I sure as hell wouldn't want my most nascent works judged as some eternal exemplar of my capabilities as an artists. It's also difficult to appreciate Nasu when you keep him a atemporal vacuum, he has his share of influences and at-the-time peers which do show in his work that the vast majority of those getting into Type-Moon stuff in 202X haven't even heard of. Sexual assault for instance was all over the place in dark fantasy, urban fantasy, and horror in the late 90's to early 00's -- doesn't mean it isn't a valid critique that he uses it so cavalierly but it was hardly a uniquely Nasu problem.
I think, ultimately, I would say the biggest issue I've had with Nasu personally is he can write some fantastically memorable scenes but then surrounds them with dross. This was really evident when I first read Tsukihime where you move from heart-pounding tension to beige disinterest too regularly, and the anime adaptation was basically watching 90% of that beige brought to life. Of course a rise & fall of action is a basic aspect of fiction, but when I get to him in LB6 you can really see how much better he is at handling the connective tissue between his story highlights. Even the smaller, less significant subplots like Da Vinci's ongoing relationship with Mike the bartender have some emotional payoff, just a overall more effective use of time.
No not really. It was about the same as back then in FSN just a fuck ton less internal dialogue from a single main character.
The fact you had different perspectives in general is the only real difference.
FSN is a majority first person perspective from Shirou and you only spent like an hour or so reading from Rin's perspective with interspersed fight scenes from like Artoria's perspective when she left Shirou to try and fight Medea only to fight Kojirou or EMIYA/Cu's perspective when they fight each other.
Meanwhile the MC, Mashu, the Fairy Knights, Beryl, Morgan, Aesc, Habetrot and Castoria and so on in FGO get individual showings of their events and their perspectives a lot more. Like a fuck ton more.
I think you legit just don't like single narrative perspective more then anything or more so when a narrative is exclusively shown from a single perspective. Otherwise your complaint doesn't make sense unless you come from the perspective the mundanity in LB6 was inherent because it's a fantasy world, instead of normal high school life interrupted by magical guerilla warfare.
Yeah I really love Nasu improvement and I think many people compare his old works to his new works not realizing the huge time difference and how much he has improved
@@chompy_oa4840
I mean people forget he wrote Hollow Ataraxia (or don't even know it exist) and Extra for Fate works, he randomly did Kanna, Tsukihime was before Fate, he was working on remake for years, had some stuff with his DnD buddies for that dragon anime thing, Kara no Kyoukai, Mahoyo and not sure if anything else.
Like legit the things I just said, no one would have read. Most watched KnK if at all, Mahoyo only just got translated officially, we have to remember most people don't know how to pirate, Extra is still stuck on the PSP with the remake nowhere in sight and CCC not even being fan translated properly till recently, forget about official releases of F/SN and Ataraxia and do people even know where Kanna started from? Or fucking know what DnD thing I am even talking about?
Most people don't read, and even if they did I don't blame them for not knowing any of this cause no official source till very recently because of the success of FGO. It's just people repeating talking points of things other people experienced without context.
That's it!
@@RavenCloak13 yeah it sucks much have the works haven’t been translated but I think you over estimate how many people haven’t read them, you look online and so many people talk about the VN and stuff I think most people have read it, at least those who care and those who haven’t are like the monkey brains that don’t read(no offense to them) but it also goes to show how much support Nasu has that fans will translate a novel longer than the Bible for no pay
@@chompy_oa4840
No they haven't.
I have seen multiple people on Twitter who just say it doesn't matter if you read the original work. Adaptations shouldn't need to including everything of an original work. Why don't I understand this? Why is this bad? No I won't listen to you even though your explaining the point that was actually brought up in the anime and I just don't want to say I fucked up and didn't remember.
Yeah you have people who read the original VN or the like but most haven't. That's facts.
Also it's not longer then the bible. It's longer then the abridged bible. Which is what your talking about. The actual bible is 5 times as big as the whole LotR's trilogy.
My main issue with Nasu’s writing is TIMELINES when I say that I mean if there is ANY inconsistency he uses timelines as an excuse, fate zero doesn’t match with what’s described in the vn - alternate timeline, hollow ataraxia - alternate timeline,how did waver summon iskandar in apocrypha if the 4th war didn’t happen- alternate timeline- Tsukihime remake -(alternate timeline), fate extella and extella link don’t match up with they’re predecessor - alternate timeline, how is archer in fate extra - alternate timeline,i can keep going but you get the idea
Personally, I like that idea. I LOVE multiverse stories and the different takes on Fate. It makes things more interesting.
With that said, I don't like the idea of Fate/Zero being an alternate timeline. I prefer that to be the proper prequel over what Kiniko has.
I see nothing wrong with multiverse, but it's strange that all stories are in separate universe.
Fate Zero not being canon to original fate is so stupid. What's the point of prequel?
@@user-vs5gb7pt3h EXACTLY i love multiverse stories but don’t use them to fix EVERY single inconsistency
Overcomplicating the most simple of explanations/concepts/characters. To the point that some of these explanations contradict each other.
Also, introducing the plague of genderbending in Fate.
Some gender bends I’m fine with like “totally francis drake” and da Vinci but some of these are getting wayyyy to out of hand
@@aidenharris5296I'm not entirely recalcitrant but the fact that it serves more to make waifus than plot twists like for Artoria tends to annoy me and I'm still annoyed that we still don't have the male versions that we know exist like Kama (which literally has an official chara design) or Miyamoto.
That said, the same type of criticism can be made with pseudo-servants who serve fan service to the detriment of originality.
For now my big disappointments for both tropes are Van Gogh and Rasputin (I like Clytie and Kirei but I wanted the depressive painter and the charismatic bearded man, damn it).
@@cameraredeye3115
She isn't.
Her husband is the dragon and she's using his name to be summoned.
Hell, people don't even know Jing Ke is a genderbent.
Gender bending isn’t really a big deal tbh
@@cameraredeye3115 Spoiler, that's not Dobrynya. That's his wife.
...I think the work that includes Servant not because of the cool powers, but because of the characters. They tend to be character-driven stories and Servants, by nature, are very cool and interesting characters. And for someone who supposedly can't stand the idea of not getting his point across, Nasu can be vague as hell. See Medea's dragon for example. Is she or is she not able to summon it? Is it just she can't control it or is that she can't summon it at all? His writing tends to be verbose sure, but that doesn't make the exposition he provide necessarily clear. That's why it comes as bloated, you sometimes need to read between the lines.
And sometimes, he really talk a lot to say nothing. There is a reason THIS FUCKING CHAIR!!! is a meme in the Tsukihime fandom
This is gonna be a really hot take, It’s not his writing but his insistence on making shirou weak , this is mainly because the fans pressure him but I hate how he keeps undermining shirou/emiya every interview, every material he keeps making them weaker that the other writers have to fix it, the reason shirou beat Gil is perfectly valid but because the fans didn’t really like it he starts saying that shirou just got lucky if that shirou would lose to Freaking Bazett and him saying shirou/emiya can’t do things he literally did in the vn
This chair this chair this chair 🪑
actually goated scene
Its absurd people still reading and talking about the early VN like they came out yesterday. Nasu was an edgy kid that wrote some edgy stuff. And that stuff happend to have some real good meat in it. Even if the meat is just family issues with some magic tech verbose layer on top.
Not necessarily Nasu specific but a big issue I have with the writing is the nihilism baked into the worldbuilding. I think it's gotten toned down with some of the later stuff but having a core element of the worldbuilding be that old things are always better/new things are worse and that magic is diminishing because scientific advancements erase the wonder and mystery of the world really grates on me. Just because things are different doesn't mean they're worse and legends still matter even if the people in them are fictional or far removed from what they were probably like. It feels like a disservice to humanity's sense of imagination and and sets a negative tone around collective understanding of things.
This also ties into some weird religious stuff the worldbuilding has going on. Science and faith aren't incompatible and plenty of people are still superstitious about stuff. We also have neopagan faiths. I get that christianity is widespread but using that as a reason to make it the last vestige of divine power has a certain ick to it when there are a number of other religions still practiced by a lot of people. It doesn't really feel like commentary about what was done to make christianity so widespread so much as baking cultural and religious erasure into the setting. This is especially an issue since it ends up favouring heroic spirits tied to christianity with a built in reason for them to be more powerful relative to other heroic spirits of the same time period.
Aside from the general worldbuilding, the age thing also limits the potential of some of the heroic spirits with the built in limits on what they'd be capable of doing just from what time period they lived in. Casters from the age of gods automatically have better magic as living people, while younger heroic spirits have to get most of their stuff from legends rather than actually being capable of those things in life. Britain gets to be a weird exception because Saber is a protagonist but too bad for any other legends elsewhere in the world past that time period.
Also related to the age thing, I don't like the way Gilgamesh being the oldest heroic spirit gets handled. I don't think the gate of Babylon should give him everything that exists ever or prototypes that are just better because they're prototypes. It feels like a lazy way to make him better than everyone else. Babylon is supposed to be a place that had a lot going on with it, so he can still be quite formidable even if you limit him to things he theoretically had when he was alive.
To add to the sexual abuse problems mentioned in the video, there's also that a lot of the sex scenes in the VNs are some variation of the 'fuck or die' trope, which undermines consent. So on top of all the casual use abuse within the story, you don't even get properly consensual intimacy for the main pairings. Another big thing is that because the main excuse for getting characters to have sex is that it's the main method of transferring mana, that raises questions about sexual abuse among magi as a result of this. We even have Sakura's situation as en explicit example
My other big writing issue is that while the series does interesting things with concepts and legends, it can feel needlessly convoluted at times. A big example of this is that the terms demon and daemon both exist, but demon refers to too many things to be useful to define things and daemons are confusing too. If a big thing about daemons is that they get imagined into existence due to how heavily imagination plays a role with the imaginary element, then how do you distinguish them from other entities also imagined into existence but tied to Gaia? Is Nursery Rhyme a daemon? Is the baby ghost version of Jack the Ripper a daemon? Goetia clearly is, so Angra Mainyu just got unlucky getting stuck in the grail. Why couldn't demon be a term that actually means something? For all the exposition and info the nasuverse gives out, it's still really difficult to make sense of some of the things it brings up and makes relevant to the setting.
There's also some stuff like Mash clearly being a homunculus but insisting on treating her as different by calling her a designer baby. Homunculi can be made a number of different ways but we canonically have 2 that were conceived and born the regular way and the main way to make them seems to be by growing them in a test tube like sci-fi clones. The distinction is completely unnecessary. You could make the worldbuilding a lot easier to understand and explain to people just by cutting down on things like that and streamlining terms and definitions. It's not all like that but I think this is some of what could be called bloated about the writing. There's a difference between making your world complex by exploring a lot of details in it and making things convoluted because you wanted to make everything complicated and full of new terms. It's like the purple prose of worldbuilding.
My dude when nasu wrote Gilgamesh his legends was not very well researched as it is today. That's why it's Gate of Babylon in the first place. He was not even from there.
Good thing OG version of FSN are no longer canon. They also changed lore behind "mana transfer through sex".
@@RR-dy6lg Except heroic spririts explicitly draw power from being known. That's why they're more powerful in places where their legend is more known. Not being known is supposed to make them weaker because the perpetuation of their legend is what makes them heroic spirits and enables their summoning in the first place. The only advantage obscurity brings them is that their opponents have a harder time figuring out their abilities and weaknesses.
Plenty of things are still amazing even after we figure out how it works. For things involving technical skill, knowing more helps deepen appreciation for the work it takes to do it. More widespread knowledge helps inspire people to innovate and improves quality of life. Stuff we know to be fictional still holds a lot of importance too, since ideas matter and people like preserving their culture and history. A system where everything new is inherently worse than its predecessors doesn't really give proper credit to that.
I find SMT, particularly Persona, does a better job exploring the idea of beliefs shaping the world in supernatural ways. The usual mythical figures show up but so do urban legends, literary figures, etc. The focus isn't on how old they are but in what they represent and how strongly people believe in the ideas they connect to. Believing in things isn't just about what's real but what people support ideologically, what they want and what they think they're capable of achieving. Handling belief this way is a lot less limiting, especially when telling a story involving magic and conceptual stuff in a modern setting.
The nasuverse paints a world full of corrupt magi who hoard knowledge and lament how nothing can ever be as good as before, has Gilgamesh lament the state of humanity in a similar way and then doesn't actually refute that. They're apparently right about the state of the world and humanity even if their actions are disagreeable. When you address nihilism in a story, it works best as something to be deconstructed.
I always thought that the whole science and magic stuff makes sense since they’re the complete opposite: magic gets stronger the more ancient it gets, while technology gets more powerful the more modern and new it becomes. Sure modern magecraft is ass compared to Age of Gods magic, but we’ve got technology to compensate for that. One of the themes of the Nasuverse is letting humanity have its own future free from the influence of the gods after all.
@@elontusk9167 Magic and science aren't really opposed. That's just a false dichotomy that crops up in fiction to explain things like modern settings where magic is a secret underground thing or the tendency to use medieval inspired settings when magic is commonplace.
Alchemy involves a lot of mysticism and sometimes gets treated like a type of magic but it's also the predecessor of chemistry. Stuff like the humours were now outdated theories about why things happened before we had the means to prove/disprove them. Cooking is a science. Understanding the world around us is a constant work in progress and treating the things we built up on to reach our current understanding as a separate entity does a disservice to our past and the process of getting where we are now.
While you can make stories about the transition from traditional magic to a more tech based setting as a positive thing, the way the nasuverse goes about it feels very nihilistic. The main setting is magic based, so you're constantly immersed in how much worse things are than they used to be instead of how things can improve. The techier stuff tends to be set at a point where the planet is actively dying/dead. It's only later on that they started really amending that by pointing out that magi are functionally scientists and retconning that people haven't been able to become heroic spirits in centuries.
Another obstacle in this is the unintentionally anti-environmental elements of setting humanity apart from the planet and eventually killing it while also celebrating their progress in doing the things contributing to this conflict.
It's important to keep in mind that in this setting, gods are just extentions of nature and the conflict is with the planet due to humanity separating itself from nature and becoming a threat to the planet's continued survival. Fighting the world for trying to defend itself isn't exactly worth cheering for. FF7 is an example of a plot that touched on similar issues in a way that better emphasized that humanity needs to learn to coexist with the world rather than subjugate it for their own benefit.
The way magic is presented in the nasuverse is that it's being degraded due to being incompatible with advancing humanity's collective understanding of the world. This positions magic as something that benefits from keeping people ignorant about how things work in addition to linking it to people's sense of wonder in the world. This in turn means that collective understanding and scientific advancement is set in opposition to people's ability to believe in the fantastical. That's why there couldn't be any more heroic spirits pre retcon. Better understanding of how the world works somehow meant that people couldn't still care about and believe in legends in a way that could enable people to become heroic spirits through modern achievements.
Belief in things and advancing humanity's understanding shouldn't be treated as mutually exclusive. Magic and science shouldn't be separate systems that conflict with eachother.
The exposition dumps absolutely kill me, though that kinda feeds into the pacing issue for me. Nasu's writing for me is one of the worst when it comes to me checking out mid scene because the exposition is going on for too long. Bloat or intense detail, that doesn't change.
My bigger issues though, are that it always feels like a few characters get underused or not used to their full potential in his stories, which if I had to guess is just due to there being so much in the first place. I also don't like his plot contrivances that make sense, but not really...but kinda? Though I think even he's aware of that.
That said, I love the man's writing to death and am really shocked people couldn't tell the difference between his writing and Urobuchi's.
My biggest problem is the amount of retconning. Like you can’t just say one thing and then immediately do the opposite it just does not make sense
That's not retconning. If it's that immediate then you can't call it a retcon. Hell, you don't even know what Cu did TILL LATER. In the VN, Cu just uses it. He doesn't explain what Gae Bolg does, you learn what it does later by reading the stats from Shirou's Master data section on Servants after they survived Herc.
Cu you also learn he could have just used it the fuck again in the same stats screen because of how efficient mana wise it is. Hell you see him ready tio do it again after Artoria is struggling and he's smiling like a fucking savage. And Artoria doesn't get off scott free. She is handicapped for a good chunk of the VN even more then she already was being Shirou's Servant.
What actually saves her is when you find out Kirei ordered Cu to bail after scooping the scene.
The fact it's luck is also what actually pisses people off. If it said magic resistance because Cu uses magic to get that effect people, well no they would have a problem but it sound less dumb to people.
@@RavenCloak13 I meant going against the established narrative. Also I don’t count the visual novel as that was one of his earlier works
@@jsansdream6860
Then you have no point.
The literal establishing thing for all of Type Moon works is NOTES. That's the power scaling we are dealing with and because it's literally called NOTES, as in rough drafts to a concept, things can change.
Like if you don't mean things like that then what do you mean by retcon. Because things are kept pretty consistent and the only major retcons are things like Tsukihime remake. Which is literally a remake. It's something people wanted. Then you have the facts majority of content in the series are from spin-off works not even written by Nasu. Like people actually have a problem with Nasu stating Fate/Zero isn't actually a prequel to Fate/Stay Night because of how different Artoria was written so Urobuchi could write the way he does. Which even that was used as context for Richards thoughts on King Arthur when he's shown the Banquet of Kings.
I does make sense when you understand that there are exceptions to the rule. Even science have few of it.
Some people tend to hate the idea of Tezcatlipoca being the Grand Assassin because Divine spirits can't be a grand and there is noone who can qualify the seat for Grand Assassin aside from Gramps. This are some of the rules atleast on "normal" circumstances that's why Tezcatlipoca "cheated" his way in. To begin with, Tezcatlipoca is not a ordinary divine spirit and to be able to cheat the system really shows how powerful and smart he is. Some servants can cheat the system like Merlin and Gilgamesh too.
My point is, if someone can break the rules then that only proved that they are extraordinary.
Nasu meat riders will never actually "hear" what youre saying
Some of the Rin exposition which leads to a bigger problem that i don't really know solution to. so basically i was a bit irritated at the fact that Rin would explain some shit for 20 mins and then either later in the same route or in the next route we find out that a lot of the stuff she said in that specific exposition scene was tuned out to be false.
the bigger problem or more like weirdness i mentioned is that the Fate story takes place in a grail war that is already different from THE NORMAL grail war which is very weird considering we have not even seen what the normal one is supposed to look like and we are already getting into the "special"/"wacky" version of the war? it just leads to some of the Rin exposition feeling entirely useless to the situation because apparently we aren't even in the normal grail wair and aren't following normal rules and Rin doesn't know.
Rin knows the 4th war was abnormal and because of it the 5th is happening only 10 years after, but Kirei and Kiritsugu are the only ones to know why. And Kirei is straight up lying to everyone saying the reason shit happened that way was because of Kiritsugu's wish and that he stoped it and that's why the Grail os full again in record time.
Narators being unreliable (specially when the narration comes from the one character foreshadowed to be sus as fuck from his first scene) isnt a retcon or useless. It's a chekov's gun being cocked to fire once the time comes.
Noone would understand what was happening and why it's bad if you dont know what it's suposed to do normally.
Weird issue, and halfway thru the video so far but Natsu explains so much that's its actually jarring when certain questions don't get a definite yes or no. Take shirou for example his origin is sword we say that was because avalon was inside of him but isn't that mainly just accepted fanon cause that could actually just be his actual origin activated by avalon Especially with a throw away line that he's a distant relative of masumune. It's always minor but it's like if your gonna talk my head off anyways just answer it
Regarding Nasu's writing, a notable flaw in UBW route, it was the seemingly lack of concern of Shirou for Saber's predicament, when she was being tortured and humilliated by Caster in the church, as Shirou only showed a little of surprise for see the situation of Saber, than be notably shocked and worried for her well being.
Adding that in other meetings in the church, Shirou and Rin were like ignoring Saber, as if apparently they weren't so concerned by her suffering, or the prospect that she ends succumbing to the Caster's Command spell eventually, as they only acknownledges the existence of Saber when Caster was defeated and she was free from her control.
Showing that the Nasu's writing in UBW was rushed, regarding the predicament of Saber, as they made that Shirou didn't show any notable reaction, than properly developed his inner concerns and worries about Saber, shows some notable rage and grudge toward Caster for be torturing Saber, adding an urgency sense for plan a strategy to defeat Caster soon, not only to prevent that Saber was fully enslaved, but also to not still bearing to see her being subjected to the tortures of Caster. Making apparent that the torture of Saber was insignificant.
At least as personal opinion.
I disagree I think there are many scenes of shirou showing excessive concern for aaber
that last part was difficult to read but i disagree in general. It was a tense moment. Shirou and Rin simply couldn't afford to stay worried for someone who is essentially "already dead", while trying to fend off a mage from the age of gods. What would you have them do? stare in shock in the presence of a an enemy servant? They are naturally worried for saber but that takes a back burner in comparison to fighting and surviving against a servant. Which in turn would free saber once they actually beat caster.
This isn't dragon ball z where each character needs 10 episodes to prepare an attack. In fate, each action and reaction fits with each character. Notice how Rin is the most emotionally volatile, but when it comes down to it, she can force it down in favour of accomplishing a goal?
Shirou himself worries about everyone except for himself. Always rushing to save anyone in need without worry over his own mortality.
Ultimately, it's not that shirou wasnt worried for saber. it was just as the saying goes... "There's a time and a place".
@@arrexu01 I understand that they shouldn't be too overwhelmed by the shock for see Saber being tortured. But i think that the producers should made that Shirou show more emotion and grief for the predicament of Saber, even if it was only for one moment, as i think that Shirou was too calmed by the situation of Saber, like if his behavior toward this was that Saber was simply kidnapped, than be aware of the brutal suffering, humilliation and possible implications of sexual assault that Caster inflicted in her. Even, i would likes to mention some examples of kidnapping situations and the reactions of the characters in other different series.
Like Rising of the Shield hero Season 2, when Filo was kidnapped and abused by a cruel circus man, caused that Naofumi showed a notable reaction of rage against this man for harmed his companion. Adding that Naofumi was so concerned, that he was impatient for rescue Filo soon.
And as other example from a more family friendly series; Pokemon, when Pikachu is kidnapped by Team Rocket in several occasions, Ash always show a notable concern for Pikachu, even despite to be simply kidnapped, than be tortured.
Making me think that in comparison, Shirou's reaction for Saber's predicament, it was too calmed, like if he overlooked the tortures of Caster.
@@josecuestas7246 please dont compare fate with rising of the shield hero and Pokemon first of all.
Second of all, i just think ur really sensitive and expect people to react a certain way to certain things.
That’s not how it works…. There are policemen who see gruesome things and exclaim a Little Shock before continuing with protocol.
It means there are more important things to do than worry and panic and essentially do nothing. Everyone reacts differently and in this case, rin and shirou reacted in a way that lets them be efficient against someone like caster
@@arrexu01 I just want to made the comparison to show one of flaws of Nasu's writing in comparison with other producers, regarding to narrates some aspects of the plots. Sorry for used other franchises out of Type MOON as examples.
Adding that even if maybe Shirou and Rin won't be so overwhelmed by Saber's torture, one general of Nasu's writing is that they treats some nasty situations like a minor problems, specifically sexual assaults, like Sakura Matou, who was sexually abused by Shingi and even he raped her several times, yet, the plot makes that Shirou and Sakura be still treating Shingi like a normal, yet a simple bullying, than a monster that deserved be put it down, even after admit his crimes openly.
And regarding Saber's predicament, Nasu's writing applies the same flaw, to takes her extreme torture, that includes some brief sexual assault, like if she wasn't suffering harshly, and the protagonists behaves like if Saber was simply imprisoned, than be brutally tormented, even despite to see clearly her predicament, to be forced in an awkard posture, forced to wear a revealing wedding dress and be clearly agonizing by Caster's Command spell, as if weakpoint of Nasu's writing was narrates some natural reactions from the characters in some nasty situations.
When I Nasu writes the characters I'm invested as hell.
When he starts writing the damn rules, which can change whenever he or other write wants for the "cool" moments I roll my eyes and start skipping the text. (Which to me learning about Type-moon shit is not something I'm invested in, and feel rather that I'm in a class room then investing in a story.) Either give me reliable info that is consistent and doesn't have "convinient" exceptions to said "rule".
That is my stance. I love it when he is writing character moments, progression, but when he starts bombing you with a long ass expositions, which could have been written a lot shorter, yeah.
I must say that Artoria's name sounds almost similar to another name "Victoria".
Artoria = Victoria
It was probably just a discussion on how to change arthur to be more feminine while staying true to the nomenclature of the times, hence artoria
I like Nasu's stories.....but I feel like him complicating the power system does the stories more harm than good.
Like OG lancers gale bog (forgive my misspelling) is basically a very powerful projectile attack. That's how it functions. However Nasu adds on that the attack cannot be dodged and will always hit the target's heart.
This creates problems that he has to write around like altira and Emiya both being able to block and survive said attack.
It causes an ehn? Moment for me. In truth if it was just a powerful spear throw.....both scenarios wouldn't have raised any eyebrows.
Well no actually. If it was just a strong spear throw would have out right killed Artoria and the plot convenience of Kirei ordering Cu just to test stuff wouldn't have mattered.
Hell, even the never misses part doesn't matter cause again, he could have just done it again cause as explained in the VN itself with the stats screen you get, he could just spam that shit. The actual supplementary section that was needed was a of why his shit isn't more broken. He has to thrust it to get the causality rewrite (which is explained in the VN) and it's only around the area of the spear thrust forward or back which is the max range of it being able to rewrite causality. Otherwise if it was that broken then he could just snipe people from across the world with how it would work if there was no range limit.
Artoria just got saved by Kirei in that instance.
EMIYA was straight forward. He just kept Cu from using it. That's it. Rho Aias can't deflect or save him from the reverse causality but it can save him from the thrown effect. Protection From Arrows keeps Cu safe from any thing EMIYA could yeet his way from long range so Cu just fucking Disengaged then readied up.
That's why the NP's show range and target distance as well. Because that's important in this instance.
@@RavenCloak13 I do appreciate what you're saying and yes there are nuances to the situations where the move is used.
But generally speaking this is what fundamentally happens.
Lancer used strong attack, Arturia managed to survive it.....he could have used it again but was told to hold off by the boss.
And Emiya's Rho Aias barely defended against the move.
I just feel that some moves simply being powerful attacks without the weird hacks reduces the need to write around said moves.
@@rotimigbadebo9609
Except your literally just explaining why one character would either just straight up die and your still going to need to write around it or your just dismissing someone being smart and not wanting the guy with a special power to fucking use the special power.
That's not a criticism that makes sense.
An actually version of this that does is FGO. We have how many fucking Servants whose abilities we get told and explained and we... never really use them because if we did, there would be no story. We would solve all the problems. So they don't even try to write around characters and whole sale just remove them from the plot. As well as the Holy Grails we collected. Who cares if they can't be used as magic wish granters? It's still a fuck ton of energy that be nice to just throw around when needed.
Another F/SN example. Curse Arm. First use of his Delusional Heart Beat to try and kill Kirei. It fails cause he has no heart. But he does end up killing Kojirou. If his attack was just explode a dude, Kirei just dies. The story just ends cause Illya died.
@@RavenCloak13 I'm only saying that in certain cases, a simple explanation for an ability might be better than the complex one.
I mean in the first lancer vs saber fight....it's explained that Gale bog with it's never miss hax didn't stab through her heart was.....because she had A+ in her luck stat.
Ok?
Wouldn't it still work if we removed the never "miss hax" from the Gale bog attack?
Instead of wondering why the fick she isn't stabbed in the heart, we go oh, she got hit but luckily it was in the shoulder so she could heal.
That's all I'm saying.
@@rotimigbadebo9609
No.
She dies. She just dies from your suggestion.
Your suggestion is she just gets blown away.
Your suggestion also would mean her arm is useless which is bad for using a sword. Like it is actually better she got stabbed near the heart then her shoulder which would make her arm useless to fight. Even worse your forgetting the other part of Gae Bolg being the curse that keeps you from healing.
It's not even explained. Shirou is just thinking it won't miss and only later when you read the stats shows the reason it happens.
Nothing your saying makes sense. She just dies with your suggestions if we remove everything about overcomplication.
Kirei's order, gone. Cu just using the strongest attack he has instead of reverse causality, gone. Forget he can spam that shit, gone. Forget either way, taking that much damage would get her killed in a fight. This also forgets Shirou would be caught up in the explosion.
THINK! JUST THINK!
Don't just say a bunch of stuff just cause you don't like something but come up with things that are even easier to find faults with the logic.
Like Tsiah said. You just want a generic fight you would call shit.
I don't have much problem with the over explainations, at worst it comes off as wanting to showing your research. However one of the biggest problems I have with the writing with FGO is that it has some of the worst "Talk no Jutsu" I've seen with antagonists going from "ride or die" to switching side on a dime after 1 or 2 bref conversions with the mc. There are some characters that it makes sense for them to switch sides but alot of them feel very forced and I just don't buy it. There are also parts of the story where the mc and Mash ignore logical choices and basically get their way knowing it's not a good idea but it still somehow works out because
The plot says so even though there was no way that should have worked.
FGO Babylonia. Ugh it was annoying.
My main problem with nasu, and fate in general are the rules, or rather how often they're broken. It honestly feels like dor some things we get more examples of tge exceptions rather than seeing the actual rules in action.
Ok for me its saber I just don't like Artoria or more accurately how she survives certain things, it just makes me go ugggggg. Survives off of instincts and luck against Cu with literally an attack that reverses causality and Sasaki whos swordsmanship was able to reach beyond true magic the tsubami gaishi. If she had Avalon I would have accepted it but this was done with a weaker master and without Avalon. A good example of survival for me was Cu and Gil, with Cu's use of battle continuation, disengage, and protection from arrows. With all of those skills plus Gil's tendency to not go all out because he feels he doesn't have to with most opponents I can see how he lasted so long. For Artoria it just makes me think how.
(Fate Zero Stan here)
I never knew Natsu didn't write Zero... unfortunately that means I have only liked Camelot in FGO.
That is so sad because the Fate-verse is so dripping with characters and stories and then Natsu comes around and we have all these people complaing about various factors of his writing.
Now I gotta be honest Fate Zero is a 10/10 perfect anime, would watch again, would recommend (and I do both).
But unfortunately Zero seems to exist in a vacuum, because it manages to curtail all of these problems your community is bringing up.
One thing I notice though is I think you are conflating exposition and story.
A story exists around an event(s) and it laces characters together.
Exposition is simply the reveal of certain elements in the story.
People can still like Natsu's stories (or the ideas they revolve around) and reject exposition dumps.
And exposition is not necessary to the story. In the case if Fate Zero I had no idea what was going on during the grail scene. I knew nothing of angry mayo and I couldn't have cared less.
I was in love with the story and characters, so regardless of the history or lore of the Holy Grail, I didn't care. The grail didn't keep me at the edge of my seat watching the show. It was the characters, their interactions and the goal they were all fighting for.
Honestly the grail in Zero could be replaced with a nuclear warhead and the story is still a 10/10. AND all the same stuff after happens the same, except instead of mud it's radiation.
But I can't speak much on natsu since I don't read the FGO singularities because they are... long winded 😮💨
The reason why Zero feels like a vacuum as you put it is because unironically it's probably the most removed series from any continuity, first up it's not even a proper prequel because few details do not add up with original FSN which is why Nasu has to say that FZ is an alternate take on the fourth war later on. Second of all because the details are skewed most of character kind of get mistreated here, people especially take issue on how Urobuchi write Saber but also they had issue with Tokiomi, Kirei and even to some extent Kiritsugu, notice how most of those characters are Nasu creation? althought their ends result does end up the same the details are all wrong. Third most of the storyline in Zero unfortunately aged horribly in the greater scope of Nasuverse, and ironically Urobuchi seems to be try to debunk most of the theme of Zero in his future fate works, LB 3 for example debunking Kiritsugu entire view when he argue with Saber, his FZxFGO collaboration works was in line with the greater Nasuverse and he generally seems to not doing his own thing (which why FZ feels strange compare to other works).
It's probably one of the best written series overall but clearly it's has flaws, one that Urobuchi seems to working on to fix even beyond Fate.
So the "excess" info is too much yet that material fills in the gap of many questions. Most writers stick to one lane and one perspective...Nasu gives you information from many different perspectives.
THANK YOU, i like nasus writing, but if there's one thing that i hate is when someone's fame make it's merits unquestionable...
That's the Fate fandom for you. They worship him too much to actually critique some flaws. I do like Nasu's work and I do like the Visual Novel, but it's far from perfect.
I feel like people conflate type moon and Nasu like he's writing everything or even most things anymore. Hes not. Like Type Moon is a collective with tons of writers.
Hi tsiah,i was wondering if you could amybe do a video on the similarities between shirou and Hercules and if shirou would be a compatible master towards him considering both of their powers origins and lives
Edit:by origins i mean how their their early lives/legends hold some similarities and not the soul
He overcomplicates everything for no reason imo sometimes for story sake and sometimes for adding a new anime chick , the interdiction of grand order gave us for example a lot of great stories and expanded on already existing lore but then he went too far wiith it to the point where it just way too much to even keep the verse understandable
But other than that , the man is brilliant, Gardens of sinners and the og fate time line fate extra some of grand order ...etc are an example of that
Lb 6 and Tsukihime remake are my favs written by him.LET THIS MAN COOK
I don't have criticisms
Based
Based
The very last point is it for me - the only time I have ever had a problem with Nassu's work was A) first and foremost the unnecessary sexual violence 💔 and B) the over repeating of things. I literally began to HATE Shirou's flashbacks by the end of the third FSN route. I fully grasp that it is the very impetus of his character, it is unfathomably scarring for him and it directly created the character we are reading the thoughts of... But OMG it was like the EXACT same pictures, music and dialogue every single time he flashes back to the Fuyuki burning. Over and over and over! It got to the point that I honestly had to put the story down for a few weeks 🤷♂️
I watched both most of the anime adaptations of Nasu's works and many videos about novels and light noves, plus played FGO about 3 years and I'm awere of the most recent content released on JP server, thus I think most of this criticism is valid. In the original stay night game the main heroines lay with Shiro because of plot conveniense with the exception of Sakura that just lusted for him, but even that is partially ruined because of dildo worms and the awfull writting of Shinji as a villan that only serves to make the other antagonists to look more threatening. I could make a whole article just pointing out the many poor writting intanses in the original Fate, let allone his other works, but in the end we can guess from the enormous fanbase that the overall story and world building he made far suprass most of this issues.
I'd say that shinji is perfectly written, he's made to be hated, pure and simple
@@tiagobelo4965 one thing is being made to be hated, the other is ending up being pathetic. Shinji is a text book scumbag with no redeeming qualities, and unlike Zouken who at least is threatening and mysterious he's straight up shallow and weak, not even being able to deal with Shiro before being able to use projection without Rider.
My biggest criticism about Nasu's writing is that there isn't more of it.
mmmm, I haven't though of it that much. My criticism is mostly related to its works, rather than his/her writing. I think my criticism is that it does draw a lot things longer than it should. Fate/Stay Night is longer than the bible. That is both Nasu's biggest weakness and strenght. Lostbelt six is the greatest example of it.
You arrive, spend a lot of time doing things at a painfully slow pace, but in those small lapses you catch glimpses of "something" being fridge logic, nightmare fuel or other things dark stuff draws your attention. Nasu's style is a slow climbing to the peak of a mountain, the climax of a story. And what climax it is, no innuendo intended. But you have to be patient.
Like they say, you gotta let him/her cook, but believe me, you're going to wait long. There's a reason why most of the singularities, lostbelts that were writted by Nasu are considered the best.
That and the concepts that he/she uses it can complicated. Like, bruh, your channel is one of the best of Type moon content because it helps us understand the nasuverse better. The fact that there has to be channel, pages, forums guiding you how this things works are self-explanitory of how tricky Nasu can be.
Well no, that's more just a difference of what person likes over another.
And no, people just don't understand concepts because they are literally pulling from history. I'm supposed to believe everyone knows everything in history?
Religion, names, mythology, actual historical events, pop culture, niche otaku knowledge, esoteric logic? Of course your not going to know everything and what some explanation if you just didn't get it. Hell, something like this makes easy to make content for people to engage in discussion of a given work. It gives people free content to talk about stuff,make videos, make supplementary stuff, jokes, comics, porn, songs, figures, clothing and so on.
It really just comes down to the person and if they want to read or not. That's it.
It's a criticism, but not really of the writer as a writer but what the person likes or not. If they said it could be shortened and give an example which keeps the context and the investment of learning who people are then it's reasonable criticism if a new writer. If it's just too long and I got bored kind of deal then it's unreasonable to say it's the writers fault if you don't actually explain why. Which people do, and it's usually "not enough action" and "fuck this slice of life crap" which just says your trying to get into the wrong series.
Depending on the story and how much you like it, long extra winding dialogue can seem really nice.
When I started the novel, at the very start, Rin just starts talking about the mage universe, the grail and the servant war. All in one. Relaly long and bloated. I do think there was a better way to make all this information more digestable. Sometimes, the problem is the way you present it too! Its hard though. For example, wait to get your reader a bit more into it before all of that.
I mostly consider it a issue that Nasu wanted to start with Rin's before Shirou mostly as a kind of twist since Shirou is like a whatever npc to Rin in part and then it leaves on the Rin going die maybe cliff hanger. Then it is like and that supporting character looking mofo is actually important.
If Shirou's part was first while it would delay and spoil the fighy with lancer and archer and other suspenses it would make the world building more natural as Shirou's part is a bit more....chill about exposition.
But since Nasu wanted that build up and wanted to show servants kicking ass and making a cliff hanger he had to basically establish Rin super duper fast
Definitely could have been done better.
Maybe start with Shirou till gets stabbed then go to Rin then back to Shirou after the Saber about to slice up Rin clff hanger and show how Saber is summoned and the lancer bs saber fight.
This allows us to build the lore abd workings of mages a bit in Shirou's part so Rin's part can dunp less exposition
Sometimes nasu doesnt really know how to take antagonists out in believable ways. Like personally i couldnt believe shirou beating gil. Obviously its because gil was arrogant but still. Then theres the case of how morgan went out....
There's nothing worse for me as a writer than when I'm sitting in front of the laptop and those lines on the screen seem... off. The wording doesn't appear to be correct, and I rake my brain for a solution but none can be found in that moment, and it kills the writing mood. Then I go back through chat rooms and similar, looking for some meme I never saved, and happen upon words I have long since forgotten. I read those paragraphs and am awestruck that I could achieve such eloquence.
Oh, and lethologica. That's a real bitch for any writer to deal with.
Issues with Nasu and his writing:
1. Pacing and elongated exposition dumps
2. Sexual abuse/rape for shock value
3. Lore and worldbuilding for the sake of it without ever interacting with it (Dead Apostles being the best example)
4. Contradictions between his statements and his written works. Also inconsistencies and retcons.
5. Overuse of the worf effect
6. Unwillingness to hire an editor
7. Nowadays way too much focus on "epicness" and "rule of cool"
I would say friendship or using talk no jitsu on enemies making the enemy become good especially when its convenient to the plot this is more of a fgo problem where as its kind of nonexistent in other fate works i would also say overcomplicating things because its so many diffrent timelines its confusing at time to understand did the 4th grail war not happen another thing can we stop bring cu to take a L bro stays getting bodied its almost a meme bros so hyped up to lose
Another amazing video! And for Nasu writing, it took me quite a long while to understand the whole story (I read at a slower pace), but I fully enjoy the experience in reading all of that. I like how he goes in full depth in many of hist stories (fate, tsukihime, kara no kyoukai, etc).
Btw I'm interested in what you think in the overall story of fate samurai remnant. I love to see your thoughts on that!
4:00 Okay, let's just bring this up. There isn't a manual for new Fate fans, and no one actually knows from where they should start so you could be starting with Lost Encore or even Carnival Phantasm, wouldn't understand a thing. So this basic explanations isn't actually unnecessary.
Not enough mama EMIYA, or a genderbent EMIYA (no, Kuro doesn't count)
Soooooo.... Gudako?
@@tiagobelo4965 Gudako is more Shirou-chan than mama EMIYA tbh
As someone who has gotten into the visual novel rabbit hole of how s*x is written in a metaphorical level. It's clear that it's not what Natsu dose for his writing for the fate series. I say this cause normally in other VNs dark tops of s*x in these VN's serve as commentary for something, but for Natsu I get in some cases it's for world building reasons. Like with the whole Mana exchange stuff, but at this point in the fandom it's just a joke. That was written to grab the audience to his work way back in they day, since we know by this point fate was suppose to be prototype, and a good chuck of that has been lost through time.
I bring this up cause the points of what he dose with the females in his work, and other things you point out shows, that he is not trying to say a commentary on anything with why these are happening to these girls/woman. As you but it best, It's just for shock value.
And I am of the huge boat of people that are glad he is writing this less and less.
As for why people believe natsu wrote Zero. I think it's a mix of these two things. One being that people believe Natsu can be a good writer for his fate series. A lot of people are playing the mobile game, and from what I have seen out of the fate anime they can look at rather then reading the VN they normally pick Zero. And because Zero is good then it's proof that the series is good as well. Not a lot of people think this way but I have noticed it.
Lastly being people not knowing in a lot of VN works, that different people do writing for the work. I know it's also something that applies to books, movies, and so on, but a lot of people do believe that one person writes for everything for a series if they are the creator of said series.
I do think Nasus's writhing is very bloated at times, he is still definitely not a bad writer, but I feel like he fundamentally can't "kill his darlings" or ever let ideas go to waste, which sometimes leads to great results, but other times (like in the Fate/Extra: Last Encore) can just brings the story down
I completely agree on his misuse and overreliance on topics pertaining sexual abuse. It's often excessive or unnecessary and comes across as "tryhard edgy" only for the shock factor. This also considering that many times the sexual abuse, whether from the perpetrator or the victim, is not even a fundamental part of their character. It's just "something nasty that happened/could happen".
Other than that, while I also agree with others that he over-complicates his settings (which leads to a LOT of exposition), what matters most to me is that I find his stories engaging and he's only improved over time.
First things first, I want to preface this comment by saying that I've read the Fate/Stay Night VN, watched Fate/Zero and Stay Night's adaptations, the KNK movies, as well as having played FGO for about a decade. I'm also more critical about Nasu's writing kind of recently and what I'm about to say is my personal opinion.
The biggest flaw I've identified with Nasu's writings, that Tsiah also pointed out, is redundant/wasted characters. The MCs who are copy-pasted versions of each other (no magical attributes, want to be a hero of justice, has a shy personality and sometimes shallow lines)
Then there's the comic relief who's entire purpose is to make you laugh and has no other traits; characters who get killed too early without having time to show their true colours and (the worst of all for me) female characters who relentlessly, collectively simp over the protagonist for no reason (especially when lolis).
Yes, I can't stand the harem trope if it's done in a very unengaging way, like I often see in Nasu's works.
I don't know if @Tsiah IV will see this but could we get a what if video similar to the Knights of the round table vs Heracles group but the combatants will be Gilgamesh facing Cu Chulainn and Achilles in a 1 vs 2 Handicap match
Day 4
Not really the point of the video but one of the best things i like about fate is that they don’t babysit you and go over the whole lore of a character because they expect you to know or at least do you research afterwards and you don’t really need to do research to understand a character because the character themselves tell you all you need to know without telling you too much that it sounds boring… sorry hope that means some sense
It feels like a doubled edged sword since knowing or not of any of the servant's history can either improve or ruin your first impression. For example, I remember I first played GudaGuda 3 event and wasn't impressed with any of the characters such as Ryouma & Izo. But, after researching the GudaGuda characters history as well as rewatching the cutscenes, I found new respect for characters like Ryouma, Izo, Hijikata, etc.
@@minatoarisato4742
That shouldn't matter.
You are literally getting told during the events their history.
Izou and Ryoma were friends in life, Izou is a fuck up child prodigy that got a reality check, Ryouma felt bad for leaving him behind but he had to IRL while in game during the events you see he was apologetic to Izou when Ryouma legit thought he was fading away.
Hijikata is barely in 3. He just provides context for Okita and talking about a dispute between his factions or region and anothers. Hell, the event CE you get talks about where he was from. The Wolves of Mibu with him and Okita on it.
I never got needing to know the history when they change shit to which should be a better point to bring up. Yeah you might not know the history but basic understanding of... Reading should give you and idea of who these characters are.
Similarly, the fact that Saber is a female version of King Arthur and the Fate flagship really helps basically yell into your face “These characters are not 1 to 1 with their historical counterparts, don’t use Fate as a source, do your own research.”
@@thetsubamehub2139
And then they don't. And half the time I think genuinely forget Artoria is supposed to be a genderbend when I have seen multiple people try to defend the change like it mattered to her character a lot when it was just a marketing reason Takeuchi suggested.
@@RavenCloak13well yeah mate, just check out prototype, there king Arthur was still male, and the story is pretty different to say the least
Biggest flaw there's way too many situations where the protagonist should've been killed but the antagonists decide to not kill them because of a stupid reason, or they fail because they talked too much
I mean, that's a lot of series in general.
Not to mention in F/SN's case, as a visual novel with multiple choices, Shirou dies a lot. There are more Bad Ends then Good Ends.
Like if we're being honest, if every story had hyper competent villains... Why is there a story? There is no story. Things just end in 20 minutes.
Why write anything at all when it doesn't make sense.
It's a legitimate criticism but it's also one that just doesn't have a good way to solve because logically if we just killed everyone then there is no continuing. The bad guy just wins and that's it. Then I guess we can go to the bad guys perspective and see what someone evil actually would do and not some shit like.the game Overlord or such where the "good guys" are worse then you, the guy playing the supposed evil demon lord.
@RavenCloak13 theres a good fix to it, have the protagonists be smart and not put themselves in said situation to begin with. Like in lb6 the cast just walks into morgans throne room with no real plan and asks for some shit. Like she couldve and realistically wouldve killed them there.
I don't really care for fate sht like that or like most of yalk do but that is not a fate exclusive. Have you ever heard of this lil show called One Piece? My boy the amount if times Luffy would have been dead in that series is crazy.
Its not a Fate exclusive
@@RavenCloak13 no, Monogatari series has competent villains but the story is long as shit, and we'll writen
@@blaneonthemoon2507
She can kill them from anywhere...
All of the things you say get countered by things that literally are told to you but you don't care.
Skadi literally tells Surtr/Sigurd where they were because of her snow sensing. Hell, the MC wants to not pursue along with Mashu but Holmes told them to pursue. These aren't the only examples. It's just a no choice problem.
Hell, the majority of the Bad Ends in Fate/Stay Night ARE Shirou trying to do the "logical" thing.
You say a lot of shit without knowing anything.
Morgan just doesn't care.that's it. Why the fuck would she? She wants to use Chaldea to take out the last Lostbelt before she tries but if they want to be difficult, she will play ball. She explains her reasoning, to our face.
You are actually incapable of remembering things if it doesn't fit your world view. That's it.
Fitst of all: Ima need a link to this whole “Mihoyo” stuff. Cause I can’t recall any mention of it ‘till now.
Edit: Nvm- never would’ve thought to shorten the name like that tho…
Idk if this applies to other stuff that Nasu wrote, but as an average Fate enjoyer with not much prior knowledge of Nasu's extended notes, I don't like how he handles the multiple Fate timelines thingy (FSN/Zero, Apoc, Strange Fake, FGO, etc). I get that since it's a franchise, you need to milk it as much as possible, but making "what ifs" for each new installment confuses me, like "Which one is canon?!" type of stuff. Though to be fair, one upside for this approach is that newcomers can watch any series without the need for prior knowledge.
What I also don't like are the token callback characters. You have characters that are already established In one series but made irrelevant in another since it's another timeline. Or just slap recognizable characters' faces and call them different characters.
Those are just my pet peeves.
Everything is canon, that's the fun of it
Hot take: I really don't care about Altria X Artoria, been on this fandom since the Deen anime still call her Artoria and will keep doing so but it's literally just a name, you can call fem.arthur for all I care.
...No that doesn't make sense.
Literally the name of a character is important. If you don't understand who someone is talking about (especially with all the different versions we have) you need to add specifics. This is literally the Miles Morales and Peter Parker thing. People get mad Miles can't just be Spider-Man to because if you say it in conversation but then have to clarify it defeats the point of it being a name.
It got worse though when in Shinjuku you literally get explained the antomology of King Arthur's name and thus Artoria from the Roman general that most likely inspired the legends of King Arthur's prototype (as during the time period King Arthur if he was real was a thing there would have been no British ruler given the people in the UK were ruled by the Romans) the explanation would have turned the name into Artoria from the root Artorius/Artos.
I think the primary issue still that Nasu's writing take a lot time get invest in and to get inversive into, in the current day of fast food stories its asking too much for majority of people. It also doesnt help that Nasu tended to write story with a thing or two that will challenge your logic and get on your nerve (look how much amount of ppl still dont like Shirou and Sakura. Then look how much ppl actually know about how Artoria/Altria is written by Nasu)
But we have to know every writers have their own pros and cons in the end
Well no. That has nothing to do with his writing and just people not liking them do to outside reasons cause never read the original VN or read in general.
They just think Shirou is a bland harem protag and Sakura is just waifu porn bait because they don't like her. That's it.
These same people will call Artoria boring because she isn't loud. That's it.
This literally has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with people wanting to jump onto the thing they think they can use for clout without having every read the thing they are talking about.
@@RavenCloak13 true. Which is kinda annoying at times
@@danmakuusou9348
Not at times.
Literally all the time.
Especially the ones who say "you don't need to have consumed the source material to be a fan" and then in the same breath complain they don't understand. Usually because they aren't good at understanding concepts or just didn't pay attention.
Then you have the ones who complain about a made up thing or the ones who complain about the source material and why something is how it is when it was "never explained" then you literally explain it to them and they either deflect or say your lying even if you literally give them a screen cap.
@@RavenCloak13 Funny enough, thats literally the easiest yet spot-on synopsis to Nasuverse fandom in a nutshell if anything
I felt the investment thing. I originally had a hard time getting into the FSN vn because whole days were going by without anything happening but cooking and school. Even now I started Mahoyo not too long ago but I'm still on Ch. 1 because they like to take their time
I like Nasu's writing. I did have a bit of trouble getting into it way back when the Studio Deen Fate/Stay Night came out, but I was decades younger then. And, I don't think that's his fault. I don't usually like heavy exposition, but I do like how Nasu handles it. In the end, I think, like many things you should love it for what it is... or not. Criticism often doesn't take taste into consideration, and people who punch down on something don't really want to critique to begin with, they just want to complain to make themselves feel better.
I'm gonna say the ones I was surprised to not hear in this vid.
Rampant fanservice is just bad. The cases of FSN and Tsuki are a bit different, FGO and Extra are what I'm gonna reference here. Jack, Mordred, Tamamo, Quetz, Ishtar, Gorgon, Ushiwakamaru, and way more. Even Tiamat has massive jugs, why? And if you say "well ___ isn't fanserviced" check all of her Alters and stuff, I promise you there is at least one version of whoever youre thinking of in a tiny bikini whether it be a child, zombie, or whatever. The obvious contention is "If the Japanese losers don't buy the statues of the 95% naked 6 year old, how are they gonna make any money?" my answer is that if they can go through the money hoops and stuff to publish Type Redline then I'm pretty sure they're good on income with the 17 other video games and 8 other anime (that I could think of). And if you think its not that big of a deal, think to yourself how much time Nasu wastes on tits.
Next I'm gonna moan and groan about powerscaling, which its pretty understandable to not care about, but I believe the scaling does have to have some consistency to be a good aspect of writing, and Fate simply doesn't. How could Artoria possibly be this Universe exploding menace, she got absolutely curbstomped by Hercules, who is struggling to destroy city blocks. Another thing that sort of ties into this is how disconnected FGO feels from Fate. Imagine if Caneth summoned Odysseus or something in Fate Zero, and how out of place he would be. Same goes for Siegfried, who we saw with somewhat regular looking servants, and he looked stupidly out of place.
More FGO hate, how convenient is it that Taiga, Rin, Shirou, Sakura, and Luvia are all just special enough to be made the body for Gods to hold, awesome! But why? Merch sales probably, which is not the best plot device imo.
To end off with a gripe that matters the least, why does everything have to be in a separate universe, it feels like a copout to avoid narrative consistency.
FGO qualifies as its own vent, tbh. Turns out a lot of writing issues can happen as a byproduct of gacha games being what they are. Or phone games in general as main series titles.
Characters get shilled because they're main characters/popular and sell money. Less popular characters don't get this treatment and end up having their potential wasted. They have to keep introducing characters for the gacha, so there's never enough screen time to do justice to the cast. The game mechanics mean that some characters get their potential wasted from being given bad parameters or their abilities translating poorly into the game with none of the opportunities they'd have if they were designed for one of the light novels. FGO gave us so many new canon servants but at what cost?
I could go on but I'll stop there.
@@taiga738 saying there isn’t enough time for the side cast isn’t true, it’s that it is chosen not to in favor of making as much money as possible (far from as much as necessary to keep a 2d gacha game up).
To put a number to my point, 159 hour game (main story ONLY) with 9 singularities and 7 lost belts in completely original settings, which can bend to add more interesting characters, as seen with Ozymandias in Camelot, as well as the round table in Camelot which takes place during the crusades.
What sucks the most is that Nasu is not a bad writer. Especially not a bad character writer. Lancelot, Artoria/Rhongo, Gilgamesh, EMIYA, Solomon, Goetia, and Joan are some fantastically written characters.
To summarize a bit, Nasu is going to choose to write an empty shell of a character that has built in floaties over actually interesting and compelling characters such as the ones above, because money.
@@theshonenshow8813 Time is still an issue even without the favouritism. If say, you have 12 20 minute episodes to tell your story, a cast of 5 characters will have more time per character than a cast of 100. The constant influx of new characters demanded by the gacha is part of the "screentime" issue and would remain there even if they spread it out more evenly. They're at how many servants now? 400? How much time do you need to properly write that many characters? How many can you reasonably fit into a single storyline? That's not to say favouritism isn't part of it, just not the entire problem.
You're right about the money thing. With gacha in particular, the story is just an excuse for the gacha's existence and a way to advertise the gacha rolls. It's gambling first and the story is just a side effect. Capitalism makes most things about making money but at least with novels and other types of games, the writing is a more central part of what they're trying to sell, so you're more likely to get an actually good story out of it.
I think the powerscaling is the most unique part of it since it’s not the traditional powerscaling of “if x character can beat y character, then x character should be able to beat a, b, and c characters too” but instead it’s a rock-papers-scissors system.
You have to keep in mind that there are conceptual abilities/items/weapons that have to intermingle with each other. We can use Artoria, Sefar, and Heracles for this example: Artoria’s Excalibur was created for the sole purpose of dealing with unwanted alien threats so it easily blasts Sefar to pieces, Sefar could probably drain Heracles of his lives as it is a world-eating alien, and Heracles pummels Artoria because of his many lives and can easily brute force his way against her.
It’s all about spells and counter spells in this verse, and that’s what I love about it.
@@elontusk9167 I completely understand that, however when it’s as straightforward as someone displaying raw planet busting or universe busting feats and scaling like with artoria then yeah her losing horribly to the guy barely destroying city blocks is inconsistent. But it’s a pretty minor gripe
Sexual violence is the only problem i have just because it doesn't go full in depth why it's happening
Its very much there because of Fetish , sadly.
@mkgaming5823 I mean yeah, but I'm I'm talking about the nonconsensual sexual violence (ie Shinji and Sakura)
I hate how he has rules in the story and just immediately breaks it. Sometimes he doesn't show how the normal is supposed to be.
Also the unnecessary romance. I know it's an anime thing but I feel like a lot of females liking the same guy does nothing to the story.
The arturia name has been seen zero, and the oficial translate for the ps2 game vertion for that , but yes is dum fight for it,
All the abuse in type-moon is for show the inmorality of mage culture, the moral depravity of mages, in other works like KnK, it for the dark side of the world , can be unnecesary for narrative but in Tsukihime remake its well done for narrative point.
The Writing problem are coming for FGO when brake the canon, but is a game they need some of them for making work, Nasu has change his writing becouse he has developt more the line, the new Tsukihime Game is really good, but a miss the harem ending xD
Great Video i dont know this channel
I feel like most criticism tweeds Nasu’s writing is really a skill issue, like with the whole exposition thing, while at times it may be excessive it’s like the whole point of the series it’s the way he writes you can’t criticize something that was intended(at least not in this case) it’s like saying dragon ball is bad cause it’s only about the fights like yeah that’s the point. Also yeah the SA was a bit much but I think he was going for a dark romantic type vibe which is why it contains so much sexual abuse, and it’s why he has toned it down recently with his writing being more sweet. To conclude I love Nasu and I wouldn’t change anything flaws and all bro is my idol
You can definitely criticize something whether its intended or not.
@@blaneonthemoon2507 that’s why I meant in this context, like when it comes to writing when an author intends a certain idea and they execute it just how they invisioned it how could they be wrong, writing is about expressing yourself(art in general)
@@blaneonthemoon2507
No you can't.
If the criticism doesn't make sense or was actually explained and you just didn't understand it cause it's not something you know like people who try and say 1+1=3 is correct while 1+1=2 is wrong.
That's the kind of "criticism" your talking about.
People can just not know things because they just don't know or can't understand even if you try and explain it. Like how you can't explain what the color red is without showing someone multiple examples.
When it comes to SA in Japanese Media at the time
It was just common , Sadly .
I feel Nasu was just going with what was normal at the time
Not related to fate but its something the Author of SAO said on why SA is often in SAO
He basically said that he added it because he was just doing what the works he grew up did
I think Nasu was the same
Ok now lets get this straight
Adding SA to make your setting Dark, does not make it dark, It makes it edgy especially when its common as over time it loses its impact and often just turns into "Its here because fetish"
@@RavenCloak13 Reading all of your comments , I think you should just leave a single comment
" I dick suck Nasu"
I've seen people give legitimate criticisms yet you ignore it and claim everyone is wrong unless they agree with you.
I might give Garden of sinner a watch
My „critic“, that I mentioned some days ago is: „The lack of sexuell Action in the newer story’s“.
In fsn and the lore was it sayed, that sexuall action has some use and meaning in the mage world (option to strength others, male fluid is valuable for mages and so one). And yet, did I never saw anything near that stuff, outside of the fsn game. And, the one scene from Wavers show, where Reines asked for fun, if he want to use the chance, when they sleeped in the same room.
Ok, the hentai stuff was only for sellings added in the game. But, it is simply a little weird, that it has not the smallest appereance now in fgo or other grail war manga (ok, fgo is a little clear, because it’s a gacha game).
I think its better this way
Getting rid of it improves the story
Especially when the reason for it was simply shoe-horned in for well fanservice
@@mk_gamíng0609I agree with u. Bring back the coitous.
For me it's a problem that stems from him trying to implement shonen battle manga writing, where he'll say over and over that something is impossible and then the protag does it anyway because XYZ. It's cool in the beginning, but when almost every Protag does it the novelty wears off. I never felt this problem with Zero due to Urobuchi being a tryhard edgelord, but almost everywhere else it happens in the Nasuverse.
Merry Christmas to everyone! 🥳
Merry xmas!
1.plot armor
2.talk no jutsu
3.lack of new h-scenes
Could you do a video about xuanzang and how strong she is
The remedy to this.
Just don't play it. Easy.
Another W
Bro I can’t stand people who get upset about the Altria and Artoria thing like bro it’s not a big deal I don’t even think about it all my brain just says Artoria why do people get so personal about it 😂
Because it's a name.
The literal identifier of a thing.
We also have multiple Artoria's. Who we have to give different names to.
Now the ACTUAL reason is Shinjuku tried to EXPLAIN how Moriarty figured out Artoria Alters identity which went into the literal entomology of Arthur as a name. The legend most likely using a Roman general as a basis for King Arthur's prototype as because the time period would have had the UK of that time period under Roman rule, no British king could exist like King Arthur. That Roman general most likely being named Artorius/Artos in spelling/pronunciation. Changing to the name Arthur. Artos specifically being proto-Gaelic/Roman do to the time period (and connection with the proto-Celtic bear Goddess Artio) meant bear which is brought up in Lancer Artoria's bond CE.
Basically Moriarty's explanation makes it more apparent that if anything her name should be Artio or Artius by the entomology they were using to try and explain her name. The fact it's Altria just because Nasu is Japanese and trying to explain it as correct just pisses people off more then anything like they are getting gaslit.
Then you have genuine complaints that matter. Fionn Mc Cumhail is... Somehow pronounced Fionn McCool.
Like you hear him say his name which doesn't match the name written. Then people bitched about Knocknerea's name being changed to that thing I can't spell on my Kindle which would make you say it wrong and people legit don't get the majority of people don't know how Gaelic is supposed to be pronounced. That isn't so much Japanese fault but The Churches fault for Christinizing names that just didn't translate from Middle English well when they were committing cultural genocide among other things.
This also happens for Chinese Servants because Japanese reading of Chinese names are completely different. Hell,the reason Jing Ke is female is just cause the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese characters would be Keika, a vaguely female sounding name.
@@RavenCloak13 see look tbh I ain’t reading all that it’s a name that was translated incorrectly why does it take up so much of your brain space let it go
@@chompy_oa4840
Same why someone changing their name from one thing to the other is hard to get used to.
Especially with trans people.
You know someone as one thing and now it's another.
So guess you would say the same thing to people fucking up with their loved ones name to huh.
@@RavenCloak13 nah it’s completely different making sure you call people by the correct names is a curtesy to them, you make sure to call trans people by their name because it is what is respectful and it’s how they identify, but when it comes to a fictional characters name Saber doesn’t tell us how she wants the translation of Artoria to be and yeah Nasu gives his opinion on it I think but like dude definelty doesn’t care enough to correct someone on it, so why should you worry yourself, it’s not even like the meaning has changed just the sound of it
@@chompy_oa4840
No it isn't.
Your basically saying people are assholes for being used to something.
That is what you said. You said nothing else but people are assholes for getting used to something and suddenly not being able to change it on a dime.
Attempt 80 of me asking you to do a video on white wolf's world of darkness
Where the hell does it begin
Lost it at the Bad H scenes comment, like serious im here for plot not "plot".
Is Altria really her official name now?? I thought was a meme or something.
you havent played any of the modern games where she appears right? her proffile in melty blood, fate grand order and even the extella games its all altria
they literally forced updated on melty blood and extella to change from artoria to altria.
@@MokonaModokiES Damn, your right! I got back to playing FGO 3 months ago, and I never noticed her name is Altria now. Considering how much I use her, I'm not sure how I missed that.
It is official, but no one seems to care.
I thought all fate were from Nasu. Like literally all of them so far. Guess I was wrong.
Hello um does anyone know Arthur story and how did it end
After all he loves Mordred and look in a good relationship
And Merlin looks like she has something to do with it not just giving the sword
Can you do a dont sleep on koyanskaya
Artoria's actually just better, but I almost always call her Saber so it really doesn't matter.
Nasuverse is weird. I'm not sure if lore exists or it's just bunch of fancy words together
Most of my criticism come from fate stay and it has more to do with the way he incorporates and justifies the fanservice
Yeah that is what I got.
Especially once we get ro Grand Order which in the end of the day needs to sell waifus. D husbandos
Those complaining about exposition, could be just like student who hate study boring subjects.
Your feelings of boredom because you having hard time trying to comprehend it is all true, if so then those knowledgeable people look down on common human or you particularly who hates to think is also true, both are true feelings no one is right or wrong, but is just... you brain dead just go play you Genshin or watch some Isekai alright.
Btw, I personally love Natsu's world setting more than its story or plot, thats why I love FGO too that it is talking about the concept and idea of Natsu's world but not the what happen who die or whatever, Fate/Zero is the No.1 for me it combines both world and plot so well that both have deep level of context to digest while remain interesting.
As far as I'm concerned everything outside of Tsukihime and the First FS/N VN is a non-canon.
Probably his fate route. Saber is my favorite heroine but it was the worst route objectively. He gets free for this because he originally wrote it as a light novel in high school.
That or his hands off additude in regards to Zero which butchered Saber’s character who (again) is my favorite heroine.
Third place is probably his tendency to retcon things in interviews because fans take his word as law even if it opposes his previous works.
His writing isn't the flaw... 1 the translations is what they're referring to, not necessarily his. 2nd it's their understanding and historical knowledge. Zashu
Will albion become archetype earth If he comes back to life
Funny thing about localizing names is how so many fans insist mash is masshu instead of matthew.
My brother in christ the Mathew thing was an error by the TL team in a CE of the original valentines event, which they fixed.
Mathew is a male name whilst Mash is clearly stated female
@tiagobelo4965 ...eh, Giving names its own gender gate kiiinda gets lost on a franchise when plenty of the males gets genderbent while retaining their 'male' names...
As someone who reads very fast, I fast-forward scenes that are too dialogue-focused in anime. I remember I skipped like 20 or so min in Kara no Kyokai (the movie part with the priest dude like Kirei) when he started info-dumping. I look at it from this perspective, I don't wait a week for an episode just to have it be mainly dialogue, I don't read manga weekly just to have 4 chapters back to back of dialogue; this is why I just decided to let episodes build up to binge, if a dialogue-focused episode is enough to make me dip out, I'd rather not start the anime and just binge it later. I don't find the dialogue boring, it's just long-winded for my tastes. recent example Frieren. Very slow series with some quality action here and there, though I guess it's also the characters don't attract me much....
I think it also just depends on the series, most people get into Fate because of all the characters, fight scenes etc so we just want to get to those and not sit through 5 lore episodes for 6th episode to be just a 5 min fight. Here's an example: The most replayed episodes by an audience are usually the action ones and/or ones that have high impact value, they don't rewatch the entire anime...
the fgo event with summer horror was terrible story wise
It’s hilarious combing through the comments here and seeing what all these “experts” have to say. Yet aren’t out there doing anything themselves besides consuming other people’s work and opining on them. 😂
This is a dumb point. You don't need to be an expert to criticize something and just because you criticize it doesnt mean you hate it. If anything it shows you really like it and wish it were just a bit different.
@@blaneonthemoon2507
Thank you for taking the time to tell me my opinion is dumb, inferring that YOURS must be the “correct” and acceptable viewpoint 😂 I never said anyone had to be an expert. But reading through quite a few of the comments, it’s clear that people are trying to make themselves seem as knowledgeable and “educated” as they can. I just find it funny. But that’s just MY opinions. YOU don’t have to like it. Cheers.
@@jamesknott5255 never said mine was correct, just said yours makes no sense
@jamesknott5255 your original comment just boiled down to "if you dont like everything about the story, go somewhere else" and i never really saw anyone calling themselves experts here so i could only assume you mean everyone who has a problem with the writing.
@@blaneonthemoon2507
Well. Sorry to disappoint you, but you assumed wrong. Either way, it’s a random comment from someone you don’t know, on a video. I never called anyone out specifically, unlike you came on to my comment telling me what I had to say was dumb. Regardless of how I meant it, or how you perceived it ultimately doesn’t matter. Have a great weekend, and merry Christmas.