Coordination of Registers (Male and Female Soprano) - Old School vs. Modern Contralto/(Male) Soprano
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- The contralto/male soprano is one of the most misunderstood voices in opera today. Here, I show what the older technique sounded like, compared to the modern "gurgle-y" sound of Marilyn Horne, Franco Fagioli, Cecilia Bartoli, etc.
My best examples of good female Contralto singing are Clara Butt are Sigrid Onegin. I also use, as examples of good lower-mid register singing, the soprani: Emma Calvé, Rosa Ponselle, Adelina Patti, Luisa Tetrazzini, Kirsten Flagstad. Of male soprano singing, my examples are a boy soprano voice (from the Regensburger Domspatzen), Jon Vickers (ahah!), Alessandro Moreschi, and the two "pop" singers Jeff Buckley and Klaus Nomi.
What is amazing is how much Moreschi (a real male soprano) sounds like older female soprani, especially Adelina Patti (lyric soprano)! And the coordination of chest/head voice is essentially the same in all of my "good" examples.
Also, a note about castrati - castrati were a (deplorable) "short cut" to achieving a male soprano. A male soprano does occur naturally (i.e. without mutilation!) , but very rarely - like any "extreme" voice, high or low. Obviously, castration for purposes of singing is a completely disgusting practise, but Moreschi (who supposedly was not castrated for the purposes of singing, but for medical reasons) still provides a good technical example of a real male soprano. Klaus Nomi is a good example of someone with a natural male soprano - he also can sing in a normal male register (quite low, more like a baritone than a tenor).
So it isn't as if one has to be castrated to sing like Moreschi - it occurs naturally, too. The male soprani who are bad examples could be taught to sing like him, just like a female soprano can be taught to sing like Moreschi - simply by using the same technique.
It is also interesting to note that Moreschi and Emma Calvé (excellent soprano) also shared the same teacher, the male soprano and director of the Sistine Chapel Choir, Domenico Mustafà.
As imperfect as Moreschi's singing is on his recordings, his voice is of an amazing quality - the more you listen, the more you are under spell - to me it seems like, it's the most genuine human sound (paradoxically), imagine that voice in a big cathedral... it has no sharp edges, it's rounded, but not foggy or veiled. When I start listening to him, it's hard to stop 🙂
Those cracked and out-of-tune low notes spoil it for me. I wish Edison had got him on cylinder 10 years earlier!
I so wish (soprano) singers in the future go back to developing their voices like Tetrazzini, Destinn or Patti did.
I agree
So do I.
All singers actually - Females with a developed middle register and everyone with an open sound and low larynx.
Flagstad’s clear tone and I almost fell off my chair...
One of the most beautiful voices ever!
people even apply this "we don't know how they really sounded" nonsense to composers like Puccini. newsflash: we literally have recordings of the original singer selected to play Turandot (Rosa Raisa), as well as the composer's first pick (Eva Turner). we know EXACTLY what it was supposed to sound like
But to be honest: We just do not know what 18th century singers sounded like. We don't. In order to get to know a unique Baroque sound, you would have to travel in time.
There was nothing old-school about Eva Turner's singing
Very well described and well illustrated with examples. One point - your picture of the glorious Luisa Tetrazzini is actually Dame Nellie Melba.
There seemed to be a period where dark chest was frowned upon and Maria Callas was used as a case in point, that her use of the chest had encouraged the beat in her upper register that appeared in the later part of her career. Horne is on record as having decried the dangerous use of the chest voice, which is a bit rich when actually she always sounded like a soprano who butched up her low notes.
Very few students these days are encourage to sing with a truly open sound and a low larynx as illustrated by Mario del Monaco. The castrati were taught to practice in front of a mirror. Partly so they they could sing without screwing their faces up. BUT actually, screwing one's face up is indicative of tension in either the tongue or the neck, preventing singing on a fully open throat with a low larynx.
I remember auditioning for LIU and the Professor commenting on how unique my timbre sounded (she said it was very deep for my age - I was 16/17 at the time). She wondered for a second if I was a contralto but then decided maybe Mezzo Soprano (had only sung Pieta Signore and Amarillo, Mia Bella. Also I was nervous from the music theory part so I kinda messed up both songs). I was like, “Oh, like Cecelia Bartoli” upon the mezzo soprano part and her response was a slight grimace and, “Uh, no.”
Glad to know that was a good thing. I just tried singing from that “eee” register and it feels weird (didn’t know that people did that to make their voices sound deeper. Whenever I do it I sound like a baritone)
Eventually you become mezzo soprano??
Sigrid Onegin and Clara Butt are my go-to contraltos. I also recommend Gabriella Besanzoni, Elvira Casazza, Kerstin Thorborg, Res Fischer, Margarete Klose, Elisabeth Höngen, Ina Gerhein, Denise Scharley, Fedora Barbieri, Maria Amadini, Irene Companeez, Reinhild Runkel, and Jane Henschel.
Antoni Matteo Garcia excellent list!!! thank you :)
@@francisca1378 Always a pleasure.
Y…Kathleen Ferrier…para mi era espectacular ❤❤❤❤
Thank you 🙂
It's not Tetrazzini in the photo at 9:36, it's Dame Nelly Melba.
Interesting stuff. I've always preferred the older, pre-WWII, singers, with plenty of exceptions in both directions, but have always thought it was personality, acting ability, and intrinsic beauty of voice as much as technique. This has given me much food for thought. I still don't really hear a gargle-y sound in most of these examples (except for Horne, but then I've always hated her voice), but I can clearly see the facial tension and distortion. Butt and Onegin sound miraculously beautiful in comparison. I hope you are continuing to make these videos - I just discovered them today!
Rosa Ponselle is a magistral female voice, wathever she sings
I've always thought her voice had a strange, almost metallic timbre. She's still one of my favorite singers anyway: hypnotic artist.
I think the only recording where one gets a representation of the power of her voice is where she sings the star spangled banner in 1952.
The photo at 9:37 is Nellie Melba, not Tetrazzini.
The photo of Tetrazzini is in fact Melba, and Butt does not have an e on the end
I am in love with Nomi!
Im a mezzo, im older, i always had these food references, but i could never achieve the perfect "oo" sound... It is sad, but sometimes we just cant achive ur expectations 😶
Don't give up! Practice A (rounded of course) and strengthen your falsetto (with this A), but most importantly, it has to be "the right quality of voice" that you use (as Ponselle said), she practiced 'oo' , but also A; all past treatises on singing emphasize the A vowel for study. It worked for me! Another great singer for reference is Evgenia Zbruyeva, she has an amazing A and OO.
Good luck :)
@@susmateja the ah vowel is the most difficult to sing correctly... it sounds better when you mix it with oo and ay any way....in Italian..A...U....E
Luisa Tetrazzini in this video looks like Nellie Melba, for some reason )))
Because that's actually Melba and not Tetrazzini 😅
Amateurs of opera, you will get a new great soprano in next 3-4 years!
From what source?
You are right...Moresci wasn't the end of a great tradition...
What is your opinion on Bruno de Sá ?
This man's voice is very unique
I'm mostly impressed by Vickers. That was not a bad falsetto for a dramatic tenor! 😲
This is the first time i've understood what is meant when people like you talk about the oooo vowel and the ah vowel. at just before 5.00. Now that i know what this is i would say this is an extremely inarticulate and unhelpful way of alluding to the difference in the way classical soprano voices sing and tenors. Of course it was doing an exercise using ooo that helped me find the open throat operatic sound that i'd been looking for for so many years but until you've actually found the way to do it, the words that mean something to the person who has got there yet may not be the same words used by the teacher as in this case when you use ooo and aah to differentiate.
So i would ask you what is happening in the larynx when you sing with the ooo vowel as compared to the aah vowel. Please don't use the word covering because that is another vague word that someone who hasn't been taught that notion and how to do it, can't have any sense of what you mean.
8:36 - 8:37 I hear vibrato on the high note.
Because it’s a voice not a machine
Drawing a direct comparison between Bartoli and Moreschi - who was older when that recording was made - is probably not the best or most effective comparison that could be made. And he was not an opera singer.
They were belcantistas. Like the sound of Maria Callas and Juan Diego Flores
it is a CRIME to put the legendary CALLAS to this man together!!..
@@greenwoods798 lol. Pavarotti then
Listen to old recordings. Does it work? The Modern Contralto doesn't have the ability to tell where a sound is coming from. I have a good way to sing the same pronunciation as the Old School, if you need, I can tell you. Now no one in the entire human race knows my methods.
what is this trend of women singing with a sound reminiscent of gagging. I don’t even understand how they produce that sound without throwing up.
😮😢😂😂
Franco Fagioli has one of the most ridiculous voices ever.
Really?
Did you heard russell oberlin? His voice is amazing
@@lulumello5804 Oberlin is amazing, but Fagioli sounds very woofy.
@@BaroneVitellioScarpia1 i love Russel oberlin
@@lulumello5804 Me too. I also like Domenico Mancini.
Собрали все золото.
Jeff Buckley... Wow, amazing... What he is singing?
Dido's lament :)
He also sang Britten's Corpus Christi carol. Beautiful.
With gender-affirming health care on the rise (especially for minors), I wonder how long it will be before we get to see a production of an 18th or 19th century opera with authentic castrati. It might mean less jobs for AFAB singers but it will certainly be authentic.
Trans girls wouldn't make for authentic castrati, since they take estrogen. They'd end up with a body type more or less indistinguishable from a cis girl, in terms of bone structure, fat distribution, musculature and larynx. Even for those who transition later, E has subtle effects on the vocal folds - not as dramatic as T, but enough to cause voice changes during menopause (for example.) The unique sound of castrati comes from them lacking either puberty.
Moresci wasn’t a top rate costrato that should be a disclaimer .... La Bartoli is no where as bad as Horne . I respected her, she did som amazing things, but that was one weird sound. Her very militant obsession with mask singing has done all at of harm.
he probably wasn't the "greatest" castrato but he definitely was a good singer, as evidenced by the position he held - however he was older in the recording so it probably doesn't show his voice at its best. That said, you can still hear the technique he uses is very different than modern singers.
I would also say Bartoli isn't has bad as Horne… but Horne is really, really bad so that isn't a high bar! ahah.
Bartoli is one of the smallest most constricted voices ever with a ”non-singing” technique just to be able to do fast coloratura...
@@draganvidic2039 really… and the "coloratura" she does sounds so sloppy and weird anyway, what is the point?
@@francisca1378
The speed and efficiency?
@@draganvidic2039 yea but it sounds so sloppy anyway, like you can't hear the words…
My only issue with this is that the really old recordings are such terrible quality that I don't think they do much to show us what they ACTUALLY sounded like. So I don't think it's fair to say that we know exactly how they sang because those recordings are only a fraction of their sound. I personally don't get much from them other than ok that's chest, that's head, and there's some vibrato there.
that's silly, the recordings for the most part are not that old and there is nothing wrong with the technology which would alter or distort the voice. You can clearly hear different vowel pronunciations and faster and slower vibrato, which is what we are analyzing here.
@@francisca1378 they just don't sound very good to me. They sound too distorted because they couldn't capture the higher frequencies very well. Not the ones from like the 40s and the 50s. I'm more so referring to the ones that are closer to the turn of the century. Also, I'm not saying that I don't agree that opera singing used to be better. We all know that lol. I just personally wish that we had better quality recordings to reference off of from the true golden age. That's all I'm saying.
@@JacquelineLanceTenor yea, they aren't as good as one would like but they are good enough to work to understand the technique.
That's also what I felt with recordings from Tito Schipa, Antonio Paoli, Enrico Caruso and other singers from that time. I just try getting accustomed to their sound
@@oliverdelica2289 exactly! They sound weird to a modern ear only because we are all used to hearing really bad modern singers...
Horne was a very great singer. You’ve excerpted her from late in her career, and not in the coloratura singing in which she was extraordinary. Not an honest lesson. Bartoli is fabulous in the Handel excerpt.
Fake
@@jaimereyespena690 Who is? what is? Horne? Bartoli? Me? :-) Never mind.
Both are horrible
They are both sadly very misguided. And have astronomically sized egos
Horne all the time sounds very nasal.
Callas must learned a lot from Calve.
Moreschi is hard to use as exemplary. He came at the end of the tradition of castrato singing, and represented a decadent style artificially preserved in the Sistine Choir. (While his portamento is not authentic, the extreme upward accaciature apparently are.)
It's about the quality of his voice, not the portamenti or the accaciature
The recording of Alessandro Moreschi is of immense importance being the only recorded voice of castrato. He was an excellent singer in his prime, he was known as "the angel of Rome" nevertheless the recording took an image of him in his decadence , surely not at his best furthermore the recording technique does not keep all the harmonics of his voice.
The ART of SINGING is NO LONGER EVIDENT
Thank you! Great examples! Bartoli has destroyed so many generations of baroque singers. One of them is Fagioli. He is just a cheap imitation of her. They both think they can sing. Lol
I don't think she has anything to do with his bad singing, he had terrible technique from the start. Now he pushes his voice as high as he can and it all sounds so painful and ridiculous. He thinks Bartoli is some kind of baroque goddess, which is why he raves about her in every interview. His musical knowledge is limited. That's the trouble with countertenors, they're obsessed with imitating women. 😂😂😂
Fagioli is so obviously imitating Bartoli, the same ridiculous mannerisms and facial expressions. Same messy coloratura. What are people learning today at the conservatory? 😢
@@Martinlovesoperamuy bien dicho. Saludos cordiales ❤❤
If you work on your low notes singing in chest voice and then start trying to bring the chest up higher and higher without pushing the voice out of alignment and without collapsing the acoustic box (the lungs), you will eventually weave the chest all the way up thru your voice. But as Pavarotti showed on that video he did with Bonynge, Sutherland, and Horn, it takes about 10 years to coordinate this, and nobody wants to do that work anymore.
Even today’s boy choirs sound artificial
Reminds me of Mozart tenors. The records state that one of the tenors Mozart wrote many of his roles for was practically a baritenor (he would sing both Ottavio and Giovanni at different times in his career). This tenor was famous for his incredible "every valley" when he debuted in England. Never before heard of vocal power, standing ovation and encore during the yearly messiah.
Yes, we know that tenors would sing high notes with a sort of voix mixte, but Mozart was not baby's first tenor role nor meant to be sung without chest voice like today
I think modern singers try to sound too “precious” and are scared of letting the voice out with pure vowels.
The main problem with vocal training since the mid 20th century is the way that microphones aren't able to handle big voices. Students are encouraged to record themselves and listen back, which makes them want to sing in the best way for the recording equipment, and not the best way for the mechanics of the voice. For instance, Callas recorded roles in a completely different way to her live performances.
Your use of the term "gurgle-y" seems to be also describing some aspects of "belting."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belting_(music)
I'd be curious to know if you think some of the modern mis-training includes forcing registers out of their natural ranges, including techniques of belting.
very interesting performances.
We are friends of old singing
Greetings from Vienna
These are tortured comparisons in that the recording equipment is vastly different over the "ages". And, using a voice is exemplary of a type or technique is probably on shaky ground ( oops....should that be "unsupported vibrato" :) I have sort of sung for about 40 years and spend way too much time in any given day listening and evaluating singers and singing technique ( as best my ears can determine). Surely we're all at a disadvantage using video to determine much of anything in the realm of "why this singer sounds x and the other singer sounds y". However, I explained the following to a friend of mine two days ago....He is a devotee of opera since his college days in NYC where he save his scholarship allotment to catch standing room only on a Saturday matinee at the Met. In my early thirties I was taught about mask singing. Fair enough if that was a prelude, but such was the limit of instruction ( 4 different instructors including both coasts and two major cities). I had much to learn about music generally ( still do), but that was enough for me to stay self-entertained in practice. I was a tenor, so it was said, but no sub-classification accompanied it. Verdi and Puccini was the stuff I was given most often to practice. On a good day, well warmed up, no allergens about, I had a solid Bflat....or so I was told not being able to hear one's own voice. I began singing after a 7 year hiatus of close to not a note after bumping into something on the Internet known as "open-throat" singing. I couldn't believe the difference and because I couldn't believe it, I thought I was deluding myself. Fully expecting that to be the case, I sought a teacher. I was then 65. I now daily warm up to two octaves below middle C and E above tenorial "high C". I'm 72. Now, I could sound like a squirrel caught in a Cuisinart, but that's not the feedback I get ( though honestly I don't trust anyone's hearing and I'm told that one should not trust their own.) My point is: there is a "mask" singing technique and a slightly different tech which nonetheless vibrates in the mask, but does more an "up and over" like a shepherd's crook that produces much more roundness of sound and room in which that sound can shape. I'm not a fan of soprani generally, but Obratsova seemed to my ear to have best illustrated that openness. Another point: homogenizing singers as "should" isn't a good approach. I understand your point with Horne and Bartoli, but they live one with an indelible sense of their uniqueness. I always "know" that's Horne or Bartoli, as I always know "that's Pavarotti or Corelli". That is NOT a bad thing....as I like each unique sound.
You talk a lot and say almost nothing, just to end up justifying singers with terrible technique like Horne and Bartoli.
Opera is not about being unique, i'll never understand this kind of narcissistic need of being unique. I'd rather sounf great than unique, that's for sure.
Great channel, instructive and inspiring.
I see what you are getting at. But the French have a lot of tension in their lips and throat in their normal speaking voice. Especially in the north. In the south there seems a much more relaxed way of pronouncing the vowels. So something else must be going on as well.
what's that jeff buckley song called? Sounds kinda like one of his live covers
it is Dido's aria "when I am laid to rest" from Purcell's opera Dido and Aeneas :)
@@francisca1378 thank you
10:25 from where is this please?
“Dido and Aeneas”by Purcell
Dido’s air
why didnt put louis kirbky lunn emmy destinn helen traubel 🙃 and also elvira de hidalgo
they are all great too but I only have so much time! ahah. cant use all the good examples or the video would be 45 minutes
lol I just think why didnt take the best example for every fach. you know what I meant.
Lina Bruna Rasa, Maria Cebotari, Claudia Muzio...
@@chairulazmi3830Whoops ! Dame Clara Butt supremacy 💯💯
Very informative. Thank you.
11:08 can you tell me name of boy or video.
unfortunately, they didn't list his name in the recording I found, but some people on youtube in the comments on the video said it was Lother Zagrosek (a german conductor who sang in the choir as a boy). Here is the full recording.
th-cam.com/video/FlwsWNuDGsg/w-d-xo.html
He is such… a great soprano, with beautiful vibrato!
@@francisca1378 Thanks! Yes he has chest in head voice, this adds beauty in voice, its not only pure ""angelic"" he has power and dark color to.
@@georgekappa3313 exactly! none of that wimpy white singing - we want good vibrato and a core in the voice ! :)
@@francisca1378 Thank you again. Btw if you have a mail or something like that I can send you my voice recording, I recorded exactly the same passage of your video 11:08 of boy soprano today, if you are interested I can send you :D
@@georgekappa3313 I dont usually give out my email, but you should post them on your channel! just tag me and I'll see them if you'd like :)
marilyn horne sang better in non operating singing
Because she was a bad operasinger 😂
@@draganvidic2039 ::
Go & find a mezzo-soprano who can sing Rossini's _Arsace_ better than Horne !
I'll wait ...
@@cliffgaither
Why should I help you when you already have made up your mind?
@@cliffgaither
Btw it’s explained in this clip why she isn’t good, maybe you cannot hear it?
@@draganvidic2039 ::
People who answer a question w / a question, have no answer.
The experts in Italy give Horne a Rossini Medal.
Who knows better than the Italians ?!
Are the Italians deaf to their great legacy ?
Yeah, Francisca, although I agree in principle with what you are saying, the main issue to me is that our modern opera singers are more concerned with BRANDING than good singing. Jackie was a good example of this. It didn't matter so much that she sounded like a mezzo or like an opera singer but that she sounded like MARILYN HORNE. For better or worse.
4:10 What do you mean by 'the lower notes should be covered'?
Covered means using "Ah" vowel (chest voice) instead of "Oo" vowel (head voice). You can't sing very low notes with the head voice - this is why men sing everything covered (with the exception of doing a "falsetto" for a specific effect).
@@francisca1378 Okaaay... But I don't understand why you use the term 'covered' chest voice. In vocal pedagogy, term 'cover' is used in reference to singing in the higher range, not the lower/chest. Perhaps you have you own personal meaning behind that term?
@@JosephDoody1 yea… people can use the term cover just to mean that the note has proper squillo. So in that sense, a low note is only covered if it is sung with "chest" voice (i.e. ah vowel not oo vowel). Covered is the broader term.
@@francisca1378 I'm quite unaware of that usage. Any examples from treatises or renowned singers?
@@JosephDoody1 Callas used the word covered when talking about the low notes of a soprano. But I think she was talking about the darkness of the voice, not the squillo.
What do you think of Mado Robin? 🤔🤔
good! (although I hardly ever listen to her tbh)
She had a caprino and very little depth of tone in her small constricted voice.
@@draganvidic2039 interesting, I don't know her very well - tbqh I hardly ever listen to the airas she is "famous," for so that is good to know.
My overall thoughts about her is this:
I love her huge range. But her voice comes out as small. And yes the vibrato is quite fast. Guess that's what nasality does. It gives you a huge range with the compromise of projection. At least that's what I understand
@@francisca1378 this is my first exposure to Robin
th-cam.com/video/32hdZaQi4-I/w-d-xo.html