Barely noticed but lm308 has more compression and that's important if you want crushing tone but I use a rat with mid overdrive so makes no fucks to me
LM308 sounds muddier and more compressed, giving it an unorthodox and gnarly feel to it, whereas the newer opamp is definitely tailored for modern tastes.
The '90s version sound a little less definition, the newer version it's a little more "clear" (and I don't know if it's a good thing for the drone metal sound). Overall, I'd rather prefer using the OP07 in combination with an overdrive, in order to have more control on the mid freq.
Fuzz Face Germanium and knowing how to effectively change loading from the guitar to change voicing. Parallel Humbucker vs Series humbucker and volume changes. Plus oscillation and full square waves possible. I RUIN A RAT WITH A FUZZ FACE. That said.. You can turn the volume on a guitar down with a rat pretty well in the same way
i bet that if we lived in an alternate timeline where the original had the op07 chip and the new version had the lm308 gear snobs would still preach about the superiority of the original on a side note i slightly prefer the op07 but honestly the difference is so small that it doesn't really matter
The biggest difference between the two is in a "feel" vs a sound. The LM308 feels sloppier, more loose, almost like there is a very slight "lag" in how it responds and blooms the note attack which gives it an interesting influence into how you play into it and thus how your playing influences the sound and vice versa. Having said that, I A/B'd an old 90s Rat (with the 308) against a reissue I loved. Dialing them as close to each other as I could, and using a looped chord progression, my friend who doesn't play music at all, nor has a trained ear, could pick out the 90s Rat every time. "Warmer" "Fuller" "more interesting" were her words. I was personally quite surprised how much more I liked the 90s Rat.
Honestly every time you switched the pedals my immediate thought was "this is better" and then I realized I was thinking the same thing about both pedals. There is a difference between them but I can't say one is better than the other, and I suspect that an EQ tweak here and there would make a much bigger difference to the tone than the specific op amp ever could.
Op amps make very little difference to tone because they usually aren't being used to create the distortion. They are simply used as clean gain stages in most circuits
@@Patrick-857 i agree , i did an experiment with a few different op amps that had the same pinout , the only difference i could hear was that some were a bit louder than the others but i guess that this is just due to different values needed to achieve the same gain like it is with transistors
In the Reality The difference in Sound in these two pedals is a lot, it is truly remarkable, but in your test you don't understand the minimum difference between one pedal and another !! this test has failed 100%
@@DoesItDoom Don't get me wrong, I love just a balls to the wall fuzz, typically in the fashion of BWAHHHHHHH like what most of Sunn O))) does. But even the Life Pedal has definition to it and that's literally a RAT and an octave fuzz lol.
I have the newer one, and after hearing this I'm not going to shell out $70 to get it modded with the lm308. Any differences is slight enough that it won't matter. Just because the guys from Sunn0))) use the old one doesn't mean I have to. The new one can drone and doom just fine on its own.
@@DoesItDoom I find the differences have more to do when using the lower levels of distortion (knob around 9/10 o'clock). Where the old ones I can use as a boost, the newer ones just don't do that side of the distortion knob very well, for me. In saying that though, I don't think the differences in higher distortion settings matter between old and new rats, demonstrated in the video. I think in this test they sound very similar to one another to even worry about the minutiae. Good videos, man!
You can always do what I did, I have the newer circuit in the older housing. I got it off reverb that way for like 50 bucks. Its always funny when people come up and ask about that rat or give it props. ;p
I have the current version of the Rat and love it. Currently I play in Drop C, but what this video shows me, I need to be in Drop A. Damn that sounded killer! Great work as always Steve!
The small difference between the two sounds more like tolerance variations than an op amp switch. I’m sure ProCo knew what they were doing when they switched op amps bc they sound basically identical.
I agree with you, opamps sonic variations are in general very subtle and you have to go back and forth switching between opamps in the same pedal to hear a difference. Sound difference is more likely to be due to capacitor drift in value within their tolerance.
I managed to pick up a used 90s rat with the lm308 for $70 CAD recently, and I'm so happy with it, I love the fuzzy hairy character it gets when the gain is maxed out
I don’t care either way. There’s no “mojo” in certain parts. It’s a secondhand dealer con (and too an Oldman guitar player midlife crisis con) which turns into a psychological con as one must justify the money paid. Edited to add a rant: The reason people started buying secondhand gear in the 70s, 80s and to a lesser extent the 90’s is because it was cheap, unwanted and a lot of it...not because it was perceived as better. Today, old secondhand guitars and amps demand absurd amounts of money for perceived superiority. It wasn’t always viewed like this. Gear from the 90’s isn’t vintage, folks. Haha “Look at that kid, he can’t even afford a new guitar so he has to use a guitar from the 50’s, what a looser” that kid is now a man and his cheap guitars are collectively worth around a million dollars. The kid who could only afford a “piece of shit jazzmaster” that sold for $250 in the 80’s now owns the epitome of jazzmasters worth many thousands of dollars as far as are concerned the hipsters and collectors. Mark my words, in ten-twenty years there’ll be new mojo in an old device that today with think is mediocre. It’s the only way dealers make big money.
IMO, thats what is happening with the boss fz 2. Got one for 40 bucks, years ago. That thing only works well on downtuned guitars, and to nail the "dopethrone sound". Overrated one trick pony.
After building a couple pedals I think there is mojo in certain parts, but op amps really aren't one of them, they're really similar from chip to chip when it comes to audio applications. Brian Wampler has a great video on it. Now NOS capacitors, transistors and different diodes? Those make a much more meaningful impact on tonal qualities. But again, it's really only something a snob would hear in a super isolated recording. Live or on a record the audience won't know the difference, especially if you suck at playing hahah.
LM308 sounds thicker with a little more low end making it more drone like OP07 sounds tighter and has more sustain Both sound fantastic but I think I prefer the update
Missed the notification : (. Great video as always Steve! They both sound pretty great, I think the biggest difference are the tapers of the pots, and small component inconsistencies.
The op-7 sounds a bit tighter and brighter to me. I'd have to go with the newer version...save a couple bucks. And get another pedal with the money ;) As always....great demo!
There's an important middle step as well, where the rat was still made in USA and in a flat box but had the OP07 chip. I've played one a few times and that sounds exactly like the LM308 rats, much closer than the newer sloped enclosure ones.
I really think the filter " knob" on the Rat pedals are the key feature. I love this demo man. To me the older one had the balls and mojo here. New model sounded a little cleaner sounding. I still think Rat is one of the best bass pedals as well. Great video man!
Thanks, Josh! The reverse tone control / low pass filter is definitely key. They are very close, but I think I prefer the darker / open character of the LM308 version as well.
I’ve used a blackface “the rat” with an lm308, a rat 2 with a 308 and a rat 2 with the later chip. The difference between the -‘87 rat and the early rat 2 is bigger than the early rat 2 and the later rat 2. The early one sounds fuller, and reacts better at low gain, and becomes more saturated in high gain.
Thanks for this. Allegedly the 308 is better for bass because of the way it clips. That said I'm not sure I want the darker tone anyway. I put lights on my Charvel for a reason. The last used pedal I bought has a wicked hiss, it's useless and I'm stuck with it. Maybe I can get it fixed but it was freakin' expensive to begin with. I won't resell it because I'm not a douchebag. I say this to remind us, used gear is just that used and maybe used hard. This is my roundabout thought process leading to the conclusion that when I pull the trigger on a RAT, it will be a new one. Thanks to the previous commenters who heard what I heard, a negligible difference and that difference ain't worth 3 times the price of a new RAT. Also, thanks for calling me out, however indirectly. I was starting to think in snobbish terms about the LM308.
I did a blind test between the black secret and an 80s big box rat. they were identical. the rat was $120, the black secret was $40 and 1/4 of the size.
Huh. I think my preference honestly varies with which filter you were using. When the filters was set high, I preferred the OP07, but with it low to medium the LM308. I guess I'd have to sort out what filter setting I like best to really hone in on my favourite. Like others have said, I find the LM308 darker and dronier, while the OP07 is clearer with more sustain. The difference is subtle, though. Great vid!
I soldered and ic socket in my newer rat 2, and I dropped a lm308 in it. There’s a tiny noticeable difference. Just a tad bit warmer and the low end really comes through when the lpf is even at 3 o’clock.
Very cool that you've done a direct comparison on the same pedal! From this demo, to me the LM308 does indeed sound a bit darker and more open. Both sound great though.
The main thing I'm noticing (probably because I'm a bassist) is that the LM308 seems to have more and cleaner low end. I mean the stuff at the very bottom of the guitar frequency range - maybe the first overtones or even the fundamentals? Not worth paying more for in and of itself, but I do respect pedal collectors wanting such a pedal for historical reasons. I'm a pretty big believer that op-amps are not what makes or breaks the done of any dirt circuit. There are videos from the good folks at Visual sound and Wampler where they A/B loads of different op-amps with minimal effects on the overall sound. It's almost to the point of being inaudible with a solo guitar, let alone in a full band mix. Josh from JHS also points out that the stated tolerances on simpler parts like potentiometers and capacitors mean that, even with identical settings, pedals with the same components from the same production runs can sound different to each other. I think that's moreso where any "mojo" that old pedals have comes from (and may also be part of why the new rat is louder)
Man great video. I can hear a little more mids in the OP07 where the LM308 sounds a little more low end. The OP07 also sounded like it a had a little better sustain to it which made it a little more rich sounding where the LM308 had a touch more dirt. Both awsome pedals either one is a fanatic choice really. I personally am going to go with the OP07, i like the mids in it that I seem to hear.
Great video, thanks! The two are very close, I would say the differences are only due to the differences in the pot values. Remember: pots are the least accurate parts in any pedal, they can have up to 20% tolerance (but I have seen pots that measured even worse than that). This can very well be the reason for the slightly different behaviour of the two pedals. Having said that I like the newer version more, but again, I'm pretty sure the differences are only due to the very wide tolerance ranges of the pots. Anyhow, my Rat clone will definitely find its way back to my board (I used a Pharaoh clone lately)
I would imagine component tolerance does play a role for sure. Can't really say how much is coming from the chip vs other components. Thanks for the details on tolerance!
Steve mate another awesome video as ever. Strange question but I got to ask I wanna get your logo on Tony Iommi Tattooed would you be cool for that please? Dude that's so hard I'd go for LM300 at gunpoint, but it's so close. Also originals always better right.
Thanks so much, Rob. Man that would be so awesome! One of my oldest / best friends designed that logo and it means a lot to me. If you do get it tattooed, please send me some photos! As far as amps, pedals, and guitars go, better sounding or not, the originals always have the mojo ;)
@@DoesItDoom Wow that is so incredible, what an honor that your friend designed that. 100% for sure I'll get it Tattooed this year hopefully and send pictures. I'll have a ton of artists wanting to do that one for sure. Yeah that is true man, I do love a new toy from time to time. Thank you Steve.
The difference is so slight that you probably get just as much tone variance between different LM308 (and OP07) units just from pot, cap etc. tolerance. And the newer ones have a more standard power supply in, making them far easier to integrate in a board.
Finally someone that uses a looper in order to make a proper comparisson, taking out the human factor and the change of dynamics while playing even the same progression. Great comparisson video. The circuits are basically the same, with a couple of capacitors being different due to the use of the different op-amp. Either will sound great in the hands of a good player. Tone is in the fingers imho. Bonamassa uses a couple of pedals.
Not for this one. I think I was playing something similar to Troubled Air by Sunn O))) if I recall correctly. All of my TABS can be found here: www.patreon.com/posts/33335261
There’s a slight difference but personally I have the newer version and it dooms more than all the other ‘boutique’ fuzzes I have. But depends on amp/speakers/guitar etc
My whole thing is, if anything has to be debated to such an extent theres probably not much there. When you listen to different muffs it's easy to hear a difference. These rats, not so much
Thanks for doing this (and for the channel - it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for)! The nuances heard with good headphones are interesting. I’ve got a newer RAT and have been considering getting it modded to swap in an LM308, plus lower the noise floor. There were some settings you did that made the differences seem really minor, but others showed a side of the older version that just scratches a particular itch the other one couldn’t reach... I heard some overtones (or upper harmonics? which term do you use?) that reminded me of something the op-amp Big Muff hits like nothing else does.
I’d check out the Fuzzlord Effects Drone Master and Dunwich Amps Volt Thrower. Also the Blackhawk Amplification Valkyrie Drive V4 - It’s not exactly a Rat but it does have some shared elements and similar tonality.
Great video! They are very, very close. I hear a more pronounced mid frequency in the newer that I don’t like as much, but it’s so close that it’s negligible.
I've actually built a RAT clone and done this comparison myself, along with a few other opamps, and come to the conclusion that no matter what chip you put in it, a RAT is still a RAT. The differences are there, but they're slight, and I can guarantee that no one is going to be able to tell the difference onstage with a band. The OP07 is a bit brighter and tighter than the LM308, which is a bit "woolier"and also tends to fall on it's face with faster playing- it doesn't handle transients very well. However, I thought it sounded a bit "congested" compared to my favorite opamps, the CA3130EZ and the LM301. The 3130EZ was the most aggressive of the bunch, but it tended to cut out on long sustained notes when the output fell below a certain threshold, so I ended up going with the LM301 which seemed to my ears to be the most balanced of the bunch.
It would be interesting to see how much variance is due to the pots. Perhaps measuring them on each end of range and accounting for the delta when during the sound comparison?
The OP7 sounds pokey, tighter and brighter than the LM308, warmer and cleaner, which is not necessary a minus in downtuning, the newer Rat adds tightness and punch to lower strings!
Both pedals sound great. It's very subtle but I think the new pedal is more excited and maybe a little squashed. The older pedal sounds like it has more dynamic nuance, natural breathing. When I do blind test I can barely hear the difference. The distortion profile sounds pretty much the same
Thank you for this great comparrison! I like the OP07 more, sounds meaner. Can't understand why the LM308 are sold for over 100 bucks used, when this awesome reissue is about 70 bucks brand new. When I look up the used market there're also way more LM 308 versions for sale than the reissue...seems odd, hm?! Cheers from Germany, keep it up!
I noticed on certain settings - ONLY CERTAIN SETTINGS - the NEW OP07 sounded a tad fizzier (aka Fuzz-like) than the LM308 which sounded smoother in comparison. But this is incredibly discrete and I run a recording studio and mix for a living. I will say one thing, in context NO WAY would you be able to differentiate.
I've had both and never keep them. I find myself liking the new enhanced versions of this circuit. Whether you're #KVLT or not about the pedal it's still a great pedal to put with other tone generators. Thanks Steve.
i got one i was placeboed into thinking it was the original for the longest time. been first on my board for 20 years now. it was late 90s but had the old knobs and old enclosure and feet. whats not apparent from above is how the ProCo label on the bottom front is sized different. i swore i had the old one for the longest. i could pick out how it was better than the new one i believed. other guitarists with the new one said it was better too. we were all fools. it was the OP amp the whole time. now i cant pick out a significant difference. even with the big box models. i think some amps can do a better job highlighting the very tiny difference in the chip but ultimately, you can get the same sounds from both. you just gotta set the knobs the littlest bit different. if you want a more significant diffetence, JHS makes a mod that has a different character about it. alot more headroom and alot more bass. possibly alot more doom. theres also pedals that put their own little spin on the base rat like the 1981. ive seen a Catlinbread one that looked interesting too, which use tone bender circuits with the rats. its called a Katzenkonig. theres also the other rats to try. theres the turbo rat, the fat rat, the Dirty Rat (mix of old timey germanium with normal rat stuff) and theres something called the Brat from Proco that i cant at this moment recall what it was that made it different. so yea, you can definetly get your own flavor of Rat, but the Rat 2 is for the most part so much the same youd be hard pressed to really make it matter if you got the old chip or not
i think the lm308's output has a little more bass/low end. the difference might be negligible depending on what your pedal chain looks like. if you want more low end w the op07 then a cheap eq pedal before or after might do the trick?
I'd agree that the LM308 seems to have more bass or less high end. It's a bit more open to me as well. Either could be EQ'd to sound about the same I think as well.
I prefer the LM308 version but the difference is slight enough that I'd be happy with either one. I have a feeling just changing the amp settings a bit would be enough to negate most of the difference.
I think OP07 sounds better. Richer in harmonics and maybe a little longer sustain. But it's hard to judge. I've got Turbo Rat with op07 and don't use it. Maybe i should start to.
I don't think the difference between the 2 is enough to warrant the cost of an LM308 rat. Especially in a band situation/bar show.feels like a case of "vintage" hype verses reality. Great demo as always man, keep doing the Lord(iommi's) work. 🤘🙌👍
@@DoesItDoom I feel like both of them have situations where they'd outshine the other. Either way it's a win/win if you're after the rat sound, just get a rat 🐭
I'm fine with the sound of my OP07 RAT but it needs more output. Headroom is limited. My Mooer Black Secret has more headroom and volume in the "Turbo" mode. Never played a Turbo Rat but I assume they are louder?
Could you hear a difference? Which version of the pedal sounded best to you and why?
Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls seems to be the case!
Barely noticed but lm308 has more compression and that's important if you want crushing tone but I use a rat with mid overdrive so makes no fucks to me
LM308 sounds muddier and more compressed, giving it an unorthodox and gnarly feel to it, whereas the newer opamp is definitely tailored for modern tastes.
The '90s version sound a little less definition, the newer version it's a little more "clear" (and I don't know if it's a good thing for the drone metal sound).
Overall, I'd rather prefer using the OP07 in combination with an overdrive, in order to have more control on the mid freq.
Both sound good. Splitting hairs
Rat: only pedal which can be featured in distortion, fuzz and overdrive videos and still hold its own.
thom dushane one of the very best. 🐀🐀🐀
I put one on my board in 1990 and never looked back! Pair it with a tube screamer and you have everything you will ever need.
Boss hm2 wym
Fuzz Face Germanium and knowing how to effectively change loading from the guitar to change voicing.
Parallel Humbucker vs Series humbucker and volume changes. Plus oscillation and full square waves possible. I RUIN A RAT WITH A FUZZ FACE.
That said.. You can turn the volume on a guitar down with a rat pretty well in the same way
Big muff
i bet that if we lived in an alternate timeline where the original had the op07 chip and the new version had the lm308 gear snobs would still preach about the superiority of the original
on a side note i slightly prefer the op07 but honestly the difference is so small that it doesn't really matter
you will never hear the difference outside a straight direct clean uninterrupted comparison like here
Yeah videos like these negate so many things I’ve heard about the 0P07, and really just make a fool out of pedal snobs in general
Yeah, depends also on the guitar and amp you're using. One might work better for one rig and less well for another.
The differences are the knob settings/pot tolerances… compare two 308s and discover one is more magic than the other.
The biggest difference between the two is in a "feel" vs a sound. The LM308 feels sloppier, more loose, almost like there is a very slight "lag" in how it responds and blooms the note attack which gives it an interesting influence into how you play into it and thus how your playing influences the sound and vice versa. Having said that, I A/B'd an old 90s Rat (with the 308) against a reissue I loved. Dialing them as close to each other as I could, and using a looped chord progression, my friend who doesn't play music at all, nor has a trained ear, could pick out the 90s Rat every time. "Warmer" "Fuller" "more interesting" were her words. I was personally quite surprised how much more I liked the 90s Rat.
Honestly every time you switched the pedals my immediate thought was "this is better" and then I realized I was thinking the same thing about both pedals. There is a difference between them but I can't say one is better than the other, and I suspect that an EQ tweak here and there would make a much bigger difference to the tone than the specific op amp ever could.
That’s awesome! The difference is pretty subtle for sure, and I think it would be easy to EQ one to sound like the other.
Op amps make very little difference to tone because they usually aren't being used to create the distortion. They are simply used as clean gain stages in most circuits
@@Patrick-857 i agree , i did an experiment with a few different op amps that had the same pinout , the only difference i could hear was that some were a bit louder than the others but i guess that this is just due to different values needed to achieve the same gain like it is with transistors
In the Reality The difference in Sound in these two pedals is a lot, it is truly remarkable, but in your test you don't understand the minimum difference between one pedal and another !! this test has failed 100%
@@key_session ...is this sarcasm or?
The newer one seems to have a lot more note articulation to it. I personally prefer that. I like being able to hear my notes ringing out.
I can hear what you’re saying for sure.
@@DoesItDoom Don't get me wrong, I love just a balls to the wall fuzz, typically in the fashion of BWAHHHHHHH like what most of Sunn O))) does. But even the Life Pedal has definition to it and that's literally a RAT and an octave fuzz lol.
I was thinking the same. The difference is very slight, but definitely noticeable. I actually preferred it
I have the newer one, and after hearing this I'm not going to shell out $70 to get it modded with the lm308. Any differences is slight enough that it won't matter. Just because the guys from Sunn0))) use the old one doesn't mean I have to. The new one can drone and doom just fine on its own.
Audible but very slight indeed. Glad the video helped you decide!
@@DoesItDoom I find the differences have more to do when using the lower levels of distortion (knob around 9/10 o'clock). Where the old ones I can use as a boost, the newer ones just don't do that side of the distortion knob very well, for me.
In saying that though, I don't think the differences in higher distortion settings matter between old and new rats, demonstrated in the video. I think in this test they sound very similar to one another to even worry about the minutiae. Good videos, man!
billy clinton interesting. Will have to compare them that way!
You can always do what I did, I have the newer circuit in the older housing. I got it off reverb that way for like 50 bucks. Its always funny when people come up and ask about that rat or give it props. ;p
Wayne Alderman haha!! That’s awesome man. As we can all hear, not as much difference as many would suggest.
I have the current version of the Rat and love it. Currently I play in Drop C, but what this video shows me, I need to be in Drop A. Damn that sounded killer! Great work as always Steve!
Clearly it’s a great sounding pedal! Drop A definitely does the O))) thing. Thanks for watching buddy!
The small difference between the two sounds more like tolerance variations than an op amp switch. I’m sure ProCo knew what they were doing when they switched op amps bc they sound basically identical.
Sound close for sure. And certainly likely to be some tolerance variation going on as well.
I agree with you, opamps sonic variations are in general very subtle and you have to go back and forth switching between opamps in the same pedal to hear a difference. Sound difference is more likely to be due to capacitor drift in value within their tolerance.
I think the OP07 sounds colder, which makes it better suited to drone
I don't particularly buy into "mojo" and definitely not for 3x the price. For me the newer version would be the ticket.
Both versions sound great to me, and I would be hard pressed to consider one "better". Thanks for watching buddy!
I managed to pick up a used 90s rat with the lm308 for $70 CAD recently, and I'm so happy with it, I love the fuzzy hairy character it gets when the gain is maxed out
Great deal!!
Just put my rat back on my board. It was a mistake taking it off I soon realized!
I don’t care either way.
There’s no “mojo” in certain parts. It’s a secondhand dealer con (and too an Oldman guitar player midlife crisis con) which turns into a psychological con as one must justify the money paid.
Edited to add a rant:
The reason people started buying secondhand gear in the 70s, 80s and to a lesser extent the 90’s is because it was cheap, unwanted and a lot of it...not because it was perceived as better.
Today, old secondhand guitars and amps demand absurd amounts of money for perceived superiority. It wasn’t always viewed like this.
Gear from the 90’s isn’t vintage, folks. Haha
“Look at that kid, he can’t even afford a new guitar so he has to use a guitar from the 50’s, what a looser” that kid is now a man and his cheap guitars are collectively worth around a million dollars.
The kid who could only afford a “piece of shit jazzmaster” that sold for $250 in the 80’s now owns the epitome of jazzmasters worth many thousands of dollars as far as are concerned the hipsters and collectors.
Mark my words, in ten-twenty years there’ll be new mojo in an old device that today with think is mediocre. It’s the only way dealers make big money.
You make a lot of great points. 🧙🏻♂️👍🏻🐐
Hahahah imagine people in the 2040s talking about how "They don't make Kempers like they used to"
IMO, thats what is happening with the boss fz 2. Got one for 40 bucks, years ago. That thing only works well on downtuned guitars, and to nail the "dopethrone sound". Overrated one trick pony.
Thiago Chaia where did you get a boss Fz 2 for so cheap
After building a couple pedals I think there is mojo in certain parts, but op amps really aren't one of them, they're really similar from chip to chip when it comes to audio applications. Brian Wampler has a great video on it. Now NOS capacitors, transistors and different diodes? Those make a much more meaningful impact on tonal qualities. But again, it's really only something a snob would hear in a super isolated recording. Live or on a record the audience won't know the difference, especially if you suck at playing hahah.
I got a new Rat and its bad ass. cant complain. lol. great demo
LM308 sounds thicker with a little more low end making it more drone like
OP07 sounds tighter and has more sustain
Both sound fantastic but I think I prefer the update
That summarizes things well I think.
Yes, the update is a little bit better
Missed the notification : (. Great video as always Steve! They both sound pretty great, I think the biggest difference are the tapers of the pots, and small component inconsistencies.
Casey King thanks! Yeah, not all that different for sure.
The op-7 sounds a bit tighter and brighter to me. I'd have to go with the newer version...save a couple bucks. And get another pedal with the money ;)
As always....great demo!
Thanks for watching, Peter! I think that's pretty accurate on the OP07 sounding brighter and tighter. At $50 used it's a great buy for sure.
Get a second RAT! Graham Coxon approves of this idea.
There's an important middle step as well, where the rat was still made in USA and in a flat box but had the OP07 chip.
I've played one a few times and that sounds exactly like the LM308 rats, much closer than the newer sloped enclosure ones.
Interesting!
I really think the filter " knob" on the Rat pedals are the key feature. I love this demo man. To me the older one had the balls and mojo here. New model sounded a little cleaner sounding. I still think Rat is one of the best bass pedals as well. Great video man!
Thanks, Josh! The reverse tone control / low pass filter is definitely key. They are very close, but I think I prefer the darker / open character of the LM308 version as well.
*listens on phone speakers* "yeah there is a huge difference" 😂
They were more alike than I would have thought. Both sound pretty rad. Thanks for the vid! 🤘🐀
Closer than I expected as well. Thanks for watching!
You just blew apart the hype! They both doom! Awesome! Thanks, Steve. Always appreciate your work, man. 🤘🏻
Thanks for the inspiration to do this video man! I hope it clears up the difference for everyone.
I’ve used a blackface “the rat” with an lm308, a rat 2 with a 308 and a rat 2 with the later chip. The difference between the -‘87 rat and the early rat 2 is bigger than the early rat 2 and the later rat 2. The early one sounds fuller, and reacts better at low gain, and becomes more saturated in high gain.
They have a different part and resistor layout. The non led Black/White face have a more fuller tone and the 90’s Rat2 have more aggression
I have an ‘87 Rat, sounds great, but I’m liking the newer one here also!
I think the differences are subtle but definitely audible. Both sound great imo.
Thanks for this. Allegedly the 308 is better for bass because of the way it clips. That said I'm not sure I want the darker tone anyway. I put lights on my Charvel for a reason.
The last used pedal I bought has a wicked hiss, it's useless and I'm stuck with it. Maybe I can get it fixed but it was freakin' expensive to begin with. I won't resell it because I'm not a douchebag. I say this to remind us, used gear is just that used and maybe used hard.
This is my roundabout thought process leading to the conclusion that when I pull the trigger on a RAT, it will be a new one. Thanks to the previous commenters who heard what I heard, a negligible difference and that difference ain't worth 3 times the price of a new RAT. Also, thanks for calling me out, however indirectly. I was starting to think in snobbish terms about the LM308.
I like the older Lm308, in my opinion it had more of a powerful bass heavy tone
I'd say slightly darker for sure. Thanks for watching!
The lm308n sound more vintage thx for this video 👍🏻
Sure thing man!
Very similar sound, i did notice a little more high end sizzle with the newer model. Love them both tho, HEAVY!! Love the channel , keep it up.
Definitely a bit more high end in the newer model. Thanks for watching, brother!
Just recently picked up a new rat this past week. My only complaint is that i didnt pick one up sooner.
Understandable!
Maybe the OP07 has higher Mid in the EQ and that's what is delivering higher volume as well
I think I'd prefer the newer Rat honestly. Have you tried the Mooer Black Secret??
Me too
I did a blind test between the black secret and an 80s big box rat. they were identical. the rat was $120, the black secret was $40 and 1/4 of the size.
both sound awesome. its one of those legendary pedals. i like the LM308 one, in this demo it sounds fuller on my headphones
A fair assessment. I agree that there are some differences, but both sound awesome.
Huh. I think my preference honestly varies with which filter you were using. When the filters was set high, I preferred the OP07, but with it low to medium the LM308. I guess I'd have to sort out what filter setting I like best to really hone in on my favourite.
Like others have said, I find the LM308 darker and dronier, while the OP07 is clearer with more sustain. The difference is subtle, though. Great vid!
Interesting! Thanks for watching. Glad you liked the comparison.
Do you think you can match the tone of the earthquaker life pedal? I would love to see a video on that!
I soldered and ic socket in my newer rat 2, and I dropped a lm308 in it. There’s a tiny noticeable difference. Just a tad bit warmer and the low end really comes through when the lpf is even at 3 o’clock.
Very cool that you've done a direct comparison on the same pedal! From this demo, to me the LM308 does indeed sound a bit darker and more open. Both sound great though.
New for shows, old for recordings.
Right on.
I just got a Rat 2 and it's a great pedal. I'm currently layering it with a TC Electronic Cinders OD and the sound is devastating. Love it.
Awesome!
They both sound great. I've got a new Rat and it's awesome.
The 90's version has more low-end, it sounds slightly darker then the newer to me.
The main thing I'm noticing (probably because I'm a bassist) is that the LM308 seems to have more and cleaner low end. I mean the stuff at the very bottom of the guitar frequency range - maybe the first overtones or even the fundamentals? Not worth paying more for in and of itself, but I do respect pedal collectors wanting such a pedal for historical reasons.
I'm a pretty big believer that op-amps are not what makes or breaks the done of any dirt circuit. There are videos from the good folks at Visual sound and Wampler where they A/B loads of different op-amps with minimal effects on the overall sound. It's almost to the point of being inaudible with a solo guitar, let alone in a full band mix. Josh from JHS also points out that the stated tolerances on simpler parts like potentiometers and capacitors mean that, even with identical settings, pedals with the same components from the same production runs can sound different to each other. I think that's moreso where any "mojo" that old pedals have comes from (and may also be part of why the new rat is louder)
The difference between the two is audible for sure, but certainly not night and day. Thanks for watching!
Man great video. I can hear a little more mids in the OP07 where the LM308 sounds a little more low end. The OP07 also sounded like it a had a little better sustain to it which made it a little more rich sounding where the LM308 had a touch more dirt. Both awsome pedals either one is a fanatic choice really. I personally am going to go with the OP07, i like the mids in it that I seem to hear.
Thanks so much--I'm glad you liked it. To me the OP07 sounds a little brighter and is a bit tighter. Both are great for sure.
Best side-by-side comparison, as it takes the player out of the equation.
When he switched it, i didnt even notice a change at all.
They are slightly different, but both great.
Got any tabs for the riff?
Great video, thanks! The two are very close, I would say the differences are only due to the differences in the pot values. Remember: pots are the least accurate parts in any pedal, they can have up to 20% tolerance (but I have seen pots that measured even worse than that). This can very well be the reason for the slightly different behaviour of the two pedals. Having said that I like the newer version more, but again, I'm pretty sure the differences are only due to the very wide tolerance ranges of the pots. Anyhow, my Rat clone will definitely find its way back to my board (I used a Pharaoh clone lately)
I would imagine component tolerance does play a role for sure. Can't really say how much is coming from the chip vs other components. Thanks for the details on tolerance!
Steve mate another awesome video as ever. Strange question but I got to ask I wanna get your logo on Tony Iommi Tattooed would you be cool for that please? Dude that's so hard I'd go for LM300 at gunpoint, but it's so close. Also originals always better right.
Thanks so much, Rob. Man that would be so awesome! One of my oldest / best friends designed that logo and it means a lot to me. If you do get it tattooed, please send me some photos! As far as amps, pedals, and guitars go, better sounding or not, the originals always have the mojo ;)
@@DoesItDoom Wow that is so incredible, what an honor that your friend designed that. 100% for sure I'll get it Tattooed this year hopefully and send pictures. I'll have a ton of artists wanting to do that one for sure. Yeah that is true man, I do love a new toy from time to time. Thank you Steve.
The difference is so slight that you probably get just as much tone variance between different LM308 (and OP07) units just from pot, cap etc. tolerance. And the newer ones have a more standard power supply in, making them far easier to integrate in a board.
I love vintage gear. But, ihave too go w/ the OPo7. The difference is subtle but, clear. Glad I already own one💪🐁
Subtle but clear for sure. Thanks for watching!
Finally someone that uses a looper in order to make a proper comparisson, taking out the human factor and the change of dynamics while playing even the same progression. Great comparisson video. The circuits are basically the same, with a couple of capacitors being different due to the use of the different op-amp. Either will sound great in the hands of a good player. Tone is in the fingers imho. Bonamassa uses a couple of pedals.
Thanks man. I like the idea of keeping the input signal fixed / repeatable.
90’s version just sounds a little bit darker in tone, I absolutely wouldn’t call the OP07 inferior just a bit brighter
Agree for sure!
This video made me realize I had not yet subscribed to your awesome channel. Whooops....
Thanks for the sub! 🙏🏻🐐🔮
I am on the fence with this one !
I LIKE BOTH ;)
Maybe my board needs both !
Do you have the tabs for what you played?
Not for this one. I think I was playing something similar to Troubled Air by Sunn O))) if I recall correctly. All of my TABS can be found here: www.patreon.com/posts/33335261
@@DoesItDoom thank you!
Sure thing!
Both sound very nice, but I find myself leaning towards the LM308 opamp loaded Rat...seems darker and thicker to my ear
The difference is barely perceptible... Once again a beautiful illustration of the snobbery related to guitar equipment...
I like the sound of the 0P07 better.... more defined. Less muddy than the 90's version.
I think you’ll find that the mids are where the newer Rat shines the low end is pretty much the same
There’s a slight difference but personally I have the newer version and it dooms more than all the other ‘boutique’ fuzzes I have. But depends on amp/speakers/guitar etc
Hard to be a Rat!
I enjoyed the op7
Sounds great I thought!
My whole thing is, if anything has to be debated to such an extent theres probably not much there. When you listen to different muffs it's easy to hear a difference. These rats, not so much
Definitely more of a difference in Muffs in my experience as well.
And with Muffs it’s only due to the inconsistency in production, not actual planning. lol
Very useful video. Thank you very much !!
Sure thing. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for doing this (and for the channel - it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for)! The nuances heard with good headphones are interesting.
I’ve got a newer RAT and have been considering getting it modded to swap in an LM308, plus lower the noise floor. There were some settings you did that made the differences seem really minor, but others showed a side of the older version that just scratches a particular itch the other one couldn’t reach... I heard some overtones (or upper harmonics? which term do you use?) that reminded me of something the op-amp Big Muff hits like nothing else does.
mimbo81 Some great observations. They are close, but definitely not identical.
You can do it yourself.
You can probably also build one from scratch.
I feel like the new one had better sustain and was brighter. I like the new one better. Great demo!!
Would you recommend the mooer dark secret as a budget option of the rat?
Absolutely.
@@DoesItDoom thanks!! I'm really looking forward to getting it
It seems like any RAT I can get my hands on is a must have pedal. Any boutique copies worth getting over a newer RAT?
I’d check out the Fuzzlord Effects Drone Master and Dunwich Amps Volt Thrower. Also the Blackhawk Amplification Valkyrie Drive V4 - It’s not exactly a Rat but it does have some shared elements and similar tonality.
Nobosound r.attack is a 3-in-1 on Amazon for about 50$. Worth it for having all the flavors in 1 spot
gelatindischarge nice! Gonna read up on it for sure.
I like them both alot...very badass breakup in the distortion/fuzz
was this played on a Orange Crush 20 combo?
It was.
Thanks for this! Glad I asked.
Seems like the new one is a slight bit sharper but aggressive, but the old one seems more like a brick house all around. Wish I could have both!
Both great for sure!!
Why not stack theme? 🤷🏻♂️
Have one dialed in for upper frequencies and one for lower bass frequencies.
Good call.
What do you mean he played a whole doom metal song.I mean yeah it only lasted 6 mins so kind of a short song but still
love the channel
Thanks so much!
I miss mine. It had the ProCo logo on the front but was stolen with the rest of my gear. :(
I hate to hear that!
Me too. 1976 black Gibson SG with DiMarzio Power Plus in the bridge and a Super Distortion in the neck, along with a really nice Mesa-B 2x10 combo.
@@aiden_macleod terrible.
hey Steve, do you remember the amp settings in this video?
I have a '95Rat is very similar to your '90Rat and I use it on bass with the tuning of B Standard... Love these Pedals 🖤 & thanks for this demo 🤘
Sure thing! Gotta love a 🐀🐀🐀
How do you know which version you have? Found mine used..
Great video! They are very, very close. I hear a more pronounced mid frequency in the newer that I don’t like as much, but it’s so close that it’s negligible.
Thanks, Matt! Very close indeed.
I've been perfectly happy with my newer rat. Seems more aggressive to me which I always like
Great pedal 👍🏻
I've actually built a RAT clone and done this comparison myself, along with a few other opamps, and come to the conclusion that no matter what chip you put in it, a RAT is still a RAT. The differences are there, but they're slight, and I can guarantee that no one is going to be able to tell the difference onstage with a band. The OP07 is a bit brighter and tighter than the LM308, which is a bit "woolier"and also tends to fall on it's face with faster playing- it doesn't handle transients very well. However, I thought it sounded a bit "congested" compared to my favorite opamps, the CA3130EZ and the LM301. The 3130EZ was the most aggressive of the bunch, but it tended to cut out on long sustained notes when the output fell below a certain threshold, so I ended up going with the LM301 which seemed to my ears to be the most balanced of the bunch.
Thanks for the insight Matthew. Very cool.
Honestly prefer the newer one. Great comparison!
Good demo! I'm happy with my proco rat2 0P07. With the does it doom aghargha or the eqd acapulco gold!?
I hope this question isn't off-topic. What pickups are in your Epiphone?
Stock pickups.
@@DoesItDoom Wow. Cool!
It would be interesting to see how much variance is due to the pots. Perhaps measuring them on each end of range and accounting for the delta when during the sound comparison?
The OP7 sounds pokey, tighter and brighter than the LM308, warmer and cleaner, which is not necessary a minus in downtuning, the newer Rat adds tightness and punch to lower strings!
Spot on description I think. Thanks!
@@DoesItDoom thanks to you for the video comparison!
Vincenzo Erriquenz sure thing.
Slight difference, but both sound great. I’m over here using a $25 Chinese and it’s actually pretty damn close, so use what you got!
Both pedals sound great. It's very subtle but I think the new pedal is more excited and maybe a little squashed. The older pedal sounds like it has more dynamic nuance, natural breathing. When I do blind test I can barely hear the difference. The distortion profile sounds pretty much the same
Sounds like a win win, unless you're a pedal collector, go for the cheaper used RAT
Either way my Joyo splinter will have to do! Getting super good tips!
Thank you for this great comparrison!
I like the OP07 more, sounds meaner. Can't understand why the LM308 are sold for over 100 bucks used, when this awesome reissue is about 70 bucks brand new.
When I look up the used market there're also way more LM 308 versions for sale than the reissue...seems odd, hm?!
Cheers from Germany, keep it up!
Thanks for watching, Dennis! At $50 or so on the used market the reissue is a great pedal.
I noticed on certain settings - ONLY CERTAIN SETTINGS - the NEW OP07 sounded a tad fizzier (aka Fuzz-like) than the LM308 which sounded smoother in comparison. But this is incredibly discrete and I run a recording studio and mix for a living. I will say one thing, in context NO WAY would you be able to differentiate.
Wow. great tone
Glad you liked it. 🤘🏻🐀
I've had both and never keep them. I find myself liking the new enhanced versions of this circuit.
Whether you're #KVLT or not about the pedal it's still a great pedal to put with other tone generators.
Thanks Steve.
Definitely great, and I agree there are plenty of "enhanced" versions to choose from as well!
i got one i was placeboed into thinking it was the original for the longest time. been first on my board for 20 years now. it was late 90s but had the old knobs and old enclosure and feet. whats not apparent from above is how the ProCo label on the bottom front is sized different. i swore i had the old one for the longest. i could pick out how it was better than the new one i believed. other guitarists with the new one said it was better too. we were all fools. it was the OP amp the whole time. now i cant pick out a significant difference. even with the big box models. i think some amps can do a better job highlighting the very tiny difference in the chip but ultimately, you can get the same sounds from both. you just gotta set the knobs the littlest bit different. if you want a more significant diffetence, JHS makes a mod that has a different character about it. alot more headroom and alot more bass. possibly alot more doom. theres also pedals that put their own little spin on the base rat like the 1981. ive seen a Catlinbread one that looked interesting too, which use tone bender circuits with the rats. its called a Katzenkonig. theres also the other rats to try. theres the turbo rat, the fat rat, the Dirty Rat (mix of old timey germanium with normal rat stuff) and theres something called the Brat from Proco that i cant at this moment recall what it was that made it different. so yea, you can definetly get your own flavor of Rat, but the Rat 2 is for the most part so much the same youd be hard pressed to really make it matter if you got the old chip or not
The newer one seems to sound better to me, personally.
Sounds great for sure!
i think the lm308's output has a little more bass/low end. the difference might be negligible depending on what your pedal chain looks like. if you want more low end w the op07 then a cheap eq pedal before or after might do the trick?
I'd agree that the LM308 seems to have more bass or less high end. It's a bit more open to me as well. Either could be EQ'd to sound about the same I think as well.
I prefer the LM308 version but the difference is slight enough that I'd be happy with either one. I have a feeling just changing the amp settings a bit would be enough to negate most of the difference.
I think that's probably true! The difference is slight for sure.
I think OP07 sounds better. Richer in harmonics and maybe a little longer sustain. But it's hard to judge. I've got Turbo Rat with op07 and don't use it. Maybe i should start to.
What amp did you use? My Rat seems to be too distorted even on 9 o'clock.
Clean channel of an Orange Crush 20.
@@DoesItDoom crush 20 with the 8" speaker has this big low end?
@@vitorugovitorasso4062 the headphone line-out on the amp has built-in CabSim (PPC412) designed for direct recording. The demo was recorded direct.
Is the FAT RAT any good? I just learned about it yesterday but there aren't many videos on it. Does it doom?
I don't think the difference between the 2 is enough to warrant the cost of an LM308 rat. Especially in a band situation/bar show.feels like a case of "vintage" hype verses reality. Great demo as always man, keep doing the Lord(iommi's) work. 🤘🙌👍
Thanks, Richard. There are audible differences, but I think they are pretty close, and it would be hard to really classify one as "better".
@@DoesItDoom I feel like both of them have situations where they'd outshine the other. Either way it's a win/win if you're after the rat sound, just get a rat 🐭
Lm308 sounds more bit crushed, i prefer the new one
I'm fine with the sound of my OP07 RAT but it needs more output. Headroom is limited.
My Mooer Black Secret has more headroom and volume in the "Turbo" mode. Never played a Turbo Rat but I assume they are louder?
Yes. Turbo Rat is louder.
@@DoesItDoom Kewl. Thx bro