Woke Pope
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
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Here Gavin Ashenden talks with Larry Chapp about the Papacy, the upcoming Synod and the liturgy wars going on in the Church today,
Pope Francis often signals left and turns right, causing ambiguity which leaves the faithful in a state of confusion.
#jesuschrist #catholicchurch #catholicmass #liturgy #theism #christian #popefrancis #tradition
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Catholic Unscripted is a light in the darkness. I am so grateful for these three courageous Catholics and this comment is from an Orthodox Catholic.
Woke is NOT of Jesus
No, it is cultural marxism, arguably the roots lay in the Kabbalah which is from you know where. Dr. Deep State the tube channel is good on this.
No...he hated making people feel good about themselves!
You have got it so, so wrong.
@@marygunning5121 Utter drivel.
@@paddymeboy I am not the only one who thinks what I say. perhaps what you think is drivel.
@@paddymeboy Who hated people feeling good about themselves.? Marx. His roots are very interesting. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
Gavin you are so spot on I wonder why you didn't make the leap to Catholicism years ago. Deo Gratias.
Ideally he should (and may) make the leap to the Holy Orthodox Church.
Oe better yet, the leap away from T-pronouncing
@@marcokiteGavin is a Papal Protestant. He’s far from Orthodox imo. Unless he gets his head round the fact that the Filioque clause is a travesty and needs to go the Orthodox Church will always be alien to him.
Yes. Spread the word about Catholic Unscripted! Not to be missed!
So illuminating. Yes, secularism is far more damaging than we realize.
I'm not sure how much more damage secularism could do than what the current pope has already done.
‘ Real ecumenism is bringing people home to our Catholic Church ‘ amen..
Orthodox here. What good awaits us in the Novus Ordo Church? None.
The more Larry Chapp the better
Very interesting conversation. I was dipping into the Ratzinger Report (1984) recently and was struck by the phrase "interpretation of the Council". This is what marks the last council and separates it from the others, its lack of clarity. Previous councils majored in making a half decent effort to be accurate and clear in the documents it published. It is worth noting that at least one peritus at the last council admitted that ambiguous phrases had been included in the various documents deliberately in order to facilitate or allow for more liberal interpretation. During the Council Cardinal Heenan ventured to say that he hoped that the documents issued by the Council would not end up being interpreted by their authors, the periti. That is of course exactly what happened!
I returned to the church precisely because Catholicism asks a lot from me. Converts and returnees ask only that Catholicism be Catholic. There are over 40,000 Christian denominations to meet the needs of the others.
Two of my favorite-knowledgeable communicators. Please do this again!! You have so much to convey.
Love this! My first listen. I think that the Church has much more of the living out of the Passion to go yet, even after Francis, to the point of the death, the tomb and the the catacombs which will be relived until She rises again in such holiness. with her Christ after her purgation.
Bravo! The only manner of improving the discussion would be to include Mark and Katherine! ❤
CS Lewis.....Screwtape Letters is invaluable !
Great host. Great guest!
Dale Ahlquist, founder of the Chesterton Academies here in the US also says Lewis would’ve become a Catholic.
I remember reading that, but I don’t remember what was holding him back because I know he was good friends with JRR Tolkien
Of course Lewis would be Catholic.
Sinclair Lewis? Why does that matter?
Very educational and powerful talk. It’s great to see Catholicism discussed at a level which allows even me to both understand and debate the subject. How exciting that the truth hasn’t changed one iota, only that we understand more and more of the depth and beauty being given to us by the Holy Spirit.
Much love to you both.
One of your more enjoyable, important, and thoughtful discussions. Thanks to both of you!
I think we need to ask what kind of Holy Mass God prefers. I doubt it’s the NO.
Do not think we can judge God's mind in this way.
I too, remember the 80's being only 20 or 25 years ago, surely...... oh my!
Just brilliant 😮
Thank you!
Brilliant. Intelligent. Honest. Informative. Simplifying. Clarifying. Thank you.
"Ecumenism should be about making other people Catholic." Well said.
Who will save God from the traditionalists?
Makes one think of Jesus' contending with the "scribes," Pharisees, and Sadducees.🙂
A tour de force ! Thank you both.
exactly!! i have no idea what parishes believe anymore. the TLM does exactly that. gives the focus for holiness. and common belief which everyone in the community believes is true, beautiful and genuine.
A woman once told me " Do you really think papal encyclicals are written for women in the third world?"
Actually such women usually know and live their faith better than the current leaders of all the churches.
Yes there was a time when encyclicals were written in technical language for a theologically educated few. However there is a vast difference between Orthodox theology and Catholic theology on basic concepts of living a holy life, like divinization and the end things. There are vast differences between various Protestant ideas and Catholic theology on issues like Our Lady, wealth obtained through prayer, faith and works etc.
We simply cannot meet on the same playing field because we are playing different games.
Synodality simply means that lobby groups with the loudest voices get a seat, and real Catholics both rich and poor get ignored and silenced. If anyone is getting dumbed down it is the ordinary Catholic believer.
i find this papacy is self absorbed and egotism of me myself and I.
In the Lord's Prayer we say "Hallowed be thy name", which means that we ought to recognise God's holiness and approach Him in awe and reverence and respect and love, and approach in the same way "what is his" like the Church, the liturgy, the Sacraments, the sacred books, spaces, vestments, etc etc
yes!! a better pope!! tired of the reducing truth to oblivion.
Synodality is superfluous in the way it is presented. In the Catholic Church there are the councils of the (local) Bishops, and there are the Ecumenical Councils too (with Bishops from all over the world). These are the provisions that steered the Boat of Peter until now, and there is no reason to devalue or underestimate their efficacy now
.
I worry we may get more of the same or worse for the next pope. One that may welcome the beast as savior.
I pray that is not the case but God’s will be done. Maranatha!
Anyone setting out to produce a long document will expect and perhaps hope that it will be poorly understood.
ask prottys if they care that the Catholic Church survives. 🤔🤔🤔curious cradle Catholic. honest answer only.
Larry Chapp hit upon something. I noticed when the Ordinariate was forming, i.e. when it was the "Anglican Use," that it drew Latin Traditionalists. The Anglicans had used a liturgy in English for four hundred years. Why the affinity of Latin appreciators? I concluded it was the ritual of the Anglican Mass, especially Solemn High Mass.
The Ordinariate Use - there is no Anglican Mass - is essentially the Novus Ordo with added Cranmer. The heretic Cranmer certainly had an impressive command of the English language. Chapp has often argued that the Ordinariate Use is closer to what the Council Fathers envisaged than the average Novus Ordo celebration.
@@edwardbell9795 I understand the Ordinariate Mass, other than the Novus Ordo, which may be used, is an adaptation of the Latin Sarum Mass, and, yes, with some unoffensive prayers of Cranmer in addition. In regard to Cranmer, one ought to be careful. His subordination to Henry VIII certainly may be questioned. His work on the liturgy, with Catholic reformers in England at the time, should be scrutinized carefully. When Cranmer was burned at the stake by Mary I, he was ambivalent. Was what he said protest against Mary I or the Catholic faith?
A simple comparative reading of the modern Roman Missal and the Divine Worship Missal will show you that the latter is an adaptation of the former. It may well contain elements drawn from Sarum through the lens of the Prayer Book, but overwhelmingly it remains an adaptation of the modern Roman Rite. This isn't a criticism. It is a beautiful adaptation. But it is, after all, designated the Ordinariate Use rather than a separate or new rite. @user-go5ii4wk5b
@@edwardbell9795 Appreciate the correction. My comment shows the last time I attended an Ordinariate Mass. I am regular Roman rite, Novus Ordo, favoring guitar, etc. There was a Book of Divine Worship in use in 1984 that was a compilation of the 1928 and 1929 BCPs, Roman Missal, and Sarum Rite. In 2015 "The Vatican--guided bu the interdicasterial Anglicanae Traditiones Commission--reviewed and winnowed centuries of Anglican texts dating back to 1549, then assembled the best of them together, in accordance with the Roman Rite." (I frequent a non-Ordinariate parish where an Ordinariate priest is assistant pastor but, of course, uses the Novus Ordo. Ordinariate priests have been given the faculties to serve in non-Ordinariate parishes as well.)🙂
Interesting but I still don't know what synodality is. When I was a kid were told that Catholic means universal. And as far as I can tell synodality is something like the opposite of universal.
Mentioning the "language in the Vatican" I would take it further and say that it becomes very clear, for any theologian to have a good knowledge of Greek and Latin is a necessity, not an option, so neologisms like "synodality" will not become a catch word to "murk the waters" so to speak.
The claims of the Orthodox to leadership within Orthodoxy can be schematically laid out as follows: Constantinople is the New Rome, therefore must be the "first"; Moscow is the Third Rome, so they must be the "first". So, their reference remains THE SEE OF ROME.
There is rivalry but co-operation is scant...
the sad component of calling young people who recognize genuine sacredness in the latin form of mass, psychotic, is the same thing as calling a liberalist who reduces truth to anything will do as an acceptable behaviour. both are trying to find and make the sacred again.. the lost soul is the one who strives toward the sacred, the genuine truth, the God who is Trinity.
Gavin, I think your comparison of the Orthodox with blackmailers is out of order!
YES they HAVE adopted the woke language and they ARE linguistically ambidextrous. That's the very game they play.
man crouched to set, thence slithered to perdition. I dare not look.
I'm evidently a non-sophisticate! I didn't understand the Irish joke. Could someone please explain?
The idea that in asking for directions you would be given the advice not to start from here suggests two things. Firstly the place that you were in is not one that is going to easily allow you to travel to where you want to go -in other words you’re starting from the wrong place, or in conversation from the wrong presupposition; but secondly, in practice there isn’t any way you can’t start from where you are so that is not helpful. But it may suggest that the journey can’t even be made.
the goal of pope francis remains to be seen.
I do think calling norvus ordo only kindergarten level is unfair ! Latin Mass should also be honored !
Let’s call it watered down, man focused then.
I sense Dr Ashenden's thinking on liturgy is still evolving. It certainly isn't identical with Dr Chapp's thinking.
@revelation1215 So St JPII and Benedict XVI gave us baby food? I must remember when I'm serving at a Requiem Mass tomorrow that it's inferior.
without music and a serman.. is true that it is thevest.
Ah more elderly men afraid they’ll loose their cushy spots in the church so they have to fight every pastoral effort.
You refer Fr. Rob Esdale no doubt.
FSSPX
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi.That is the reason "they" use the Novus Ordo and wish to destroy the Roman Catholic Mass. Viva Christo Rey!!!!
exactly!! a very cunning manipulative way to sway ordinary faithful people into a false sense of charity hence the document FS by the DDF to affirm homosexual blessings in a manipulative way of words to explain differences but affirm sameness.
Horrendous waiting music.
Orthodox here. You wanted a all powerful Pontifical monarchy. Why do you complain?
Kyrie eleison.
Hence why there is no unity in the Orthodox Church.
The alternative would seem to be synodality, or something the same, and the fuss is in great part over the Pontifical monarch wishing to effectively abdicate. A more nuanced criticism might go farther.
Another Vatican 11 Pope, are you two really serious?????????? Sancta Maria Ora Pro Nobis.
Every time I hear the words journey and accompaniment I feel like getting nauseous. They just seem like the modern-day buzzwords
Christ in his journey to the cross was accompanied by his mother, Mary.
@@oliverclark5604 touche
Much better to desert and abandon!
we need a better liturgy than the guitar reviles and the silly dance and the absolute clown sermons
If you do not like a folk Mass with guitar, don't attend it. I don't like Masses with pompous organs and cantors who do all of the singing instead of the congregation!
So many drama queen commentators looking inward rather than going out and spreading the good news.
You refer to Jorge and his henchmen I assume.
Yes, yet how do we then, get to Dublin?
They do love their own voices.
Joke pope
So Gavin has his own kind of 'derangement syndrome', he gets triggered (I guess) by an objective, logical, historical objection to the heresy of papal infallibility.
Time for Orthodoxy Gavin!!
☦
Which orthodox church? 😂
It seems Gavin gave an apt explanation for doctrine or dogma, which would include papal infallibility. The environment, time, it was given, appeared, should be considered. Heresy?
'Gaudiam et spes' - neither of them things that you people believe in, clearly.
Jorge and his crusade against the Traditional Catholic Liturgy is enough to make a Saint lose joy and hope!!!
Francis is not a Pope!
Are you a Catholic? If so, your statement makes you schismatic.
the sad component of calling young people who recognize genuine sacredness in the latin form of mass, psychotic, is the same thing as calling a liberalist who reduces truth to anything will do as an acceptable behaviour. both are trying to find and make the sacred again.. the lost soul is the one who strives toward the sacred, the genuine truth, the God who is Trinity.
And what were you doing when you downplayed the use of guitar in an earlier post?