Yeah the level of how out of touch with the majority of the player base is astounding. I actually think Max thinks "pugging" with people that follow his streams is in any way comparable to an actual pug just baffled me. Also like that the consensus was that affixes were fine because it basically doesn't impact them (combination of being very good players and grouping with like the top 1% of players only). Maybe not the majority opinion, but for me removal of affixes would be the optimal solution for M+.
@@Hans_Unique_Handle Yeah i remember watching Max doing 27, 28 keys, wich has been my absolute max limit. And he just chills through it not even knowing mechanics. Clearly boosted by real pros. Nah thats not "pugging" :D
Well it’s his experience and playing in a coordinated group be it friends or guild mates turning m+ from hell to enjoyable isn’t new. Find a guild or network or be fine doing 10s for your vault and don’t engage with m+ beyond that. Those are the options if you don’t wanna end in misery.
I’m confused, hasn’t he always had a group? Or atleast players of notable skill level/multi-title players? I wouldn’t compare that to pugging if that’s the case. LFG pugging is a different type of hell.
@@Sly_404 so how about the fact that the majority of the playerbase can't exactly lineup their schedules to be in a coordinated group or guild. I am in a guild but these guys are only on 1 day a week because of work and family. Stop thinking like the niche few that play this game for 100's of hours a week and put yourself in the shoes of the working class.
Meg’s statement at 1:28:57 is exactly my sentiment and something I can relate to. I love wow, but the time commitment for this game, and to be able to reach near the top, let’s say top 25% or higher, is to high for anyone who doesn’t play this game as their full time job. I want to reach 3k each season, but I’m not doing that this season because my work schedule only allows me the privilege of playing twice a week and I’m constantly playing catchup with the minor chores and other things I want to do in game along with raiding to be able to push M+ at an even reasonable level. I don’t think I’m alone also. I think I’m part of the “Everyman”.
I don’t really get this. I feel like as everything in life if you want to achive something you need to invest into it. is the game less fun to play not having a 3k rating?
@Ascarthor you’re correct in that, anything one desires in life takes dedication and sacrifice. This wasn’t a critique on the game on my part yet I think it was on her part, and she’s a career streamer. It was more of a statement that, it does require a sacrifice to achieve, one in which the majority of players can’t sustain. I’m not a top mythic raider, but I’d venture to say that those who are in the CE category aren’t playing at a casual pace. M+ in particular should have a linear sort of progression in terms of continual improvement over time lets say after 8-12 weeks one of a casual pace “should” be able to progress past 12s with time, practice and patience. But currently there is a sort of brick wall that one hits at the 12 range that many, including myself can’t sustain due to a multitude of factors and I think that’s what she was referring too. I may be wrong. I’m not advocating for, “welfare handouts”, but that feeling of being able to continually progress is a good feeling. The brick wall isn’t. At its current iteration, it feels like, to many, in order to progress you have to play as if it’s your job and that takes the fun out of it for a lot of people and for a lot of people that’s most of the more casual players, which are the bread and butter of this game. I think that’s what she was advocating for in that statement. I believe it’s the same issue pvpr’s are facing now. In the past 2400 was the defacto standard or median point that anyone with casual play, time, practice and patience could reach. Today, 2400 is just now being reached by Picabo which is one of the best players period. Another career streamer. The issue is, the rewards are tied to 2400 which at its current iteration is unachievable by nearly the entire pvp community. That’s not good or fun.
This comment is so cooked, crazy how many people liked this. 3k rating is top 1% in the game. Do you believe you are a top 1% player? Do you believe you should be able to achieve the top 1% level "casually"? What kind of disneyland world do you think this is? "I want to casually become a professional athlete". Your work schedule doesn't even matter. People play this game all day every day and still won't achieve that.
Not all of us...but yea, by the very definition, vievers of a world first guild GM will be MUCH better than avg pug, and definitly 924912u934248712821317246532 times better than vievers of casual channels like T&E (ok, meby bad example of casual channel, cuz everyone and their mother watches weekly reset at the very least, it's just fun content, even if they say stiupid shit some of the time, but you get my point)
@@SparkyDiesAlot the thing was, T&E was fine. They had a goofy ass channel and segments but then T decided to go batshit crazy and get all personal about other creators. Made me think of them differently. If he wouldn't have had that crazy period, the general sentiment would be more positive around them
I'm refusing to do that even on my main. I got to 616 on main, 1st alt all above 605-616, 2nd alt, 3rd alt and just move on another alt. The games just kinda like corruption in BFA, the runed/guilded farm for alts is punishing and so I play less wow and pug less HC raid as tank/M+ as a Tank.
To this day I do not even understand WHY they changed that upgrade system to begin with. The Crest system is so much worse than the Valor system we had before, instead of ONE currency, we now have FIVE currencies we need to upgrade depending on the itemlevel. This is so ridiculous. Just have bring back Valor or something comparable and make any item that drops upgradable to max ilvl, who gives a damn if Casual McCasualface gets a full set of 636 by only grinding low keys or open world content until their face falls off.
That is actually one of the biggest problems nobody talks about how useless rewards are for the time you spend not that much the difficulty. Like i can do 10s weekly on like 5 alts, but most of my chars are like 611 to 618 at most as i cba spamming 60 8s or 7s to upgrade my stuff its beyond stupid. And then you get a single myth track item not only doing 10s is pain in the ass, but you still get a shitty single item in vault. Considering that killing 4 bosses gives you like 2x on average 1 from vault on top of 2x vault choices, which takes like 3 times less than pugging 4x 10s even. Even if you see that discount that you may never see like 25% as you need full myth track or w/e it was is nothing considering the time you need to spend even on your main you pretty much need to get like 75% on everything you have upgraded on your main to make sense to ever have alts unless you are playing 10h a day. I'm a healer so my que times are instant or at most like 5-10 mins on sub 615 chars, but i can't imagine a dps waiting for 1h-2h for that type of rewards on top going through the process of having max hero track to even get invited to anything. In df crests system made some sense as hero track was a bit longer and you could push your hero track items to fairly decent ilvl relative to myth track considering blizzard mindset is making gear aspirational reward, but now it just makes no sense as max hero track is complete garbage in comparison to max myth track as its whole 13 ilvls im not even bothering upgrading my hero track as i never step into 7s just waiting for my weekly vault to even get any progression. Whole crests system is just arbitary waste of time now like what artifact power was back in legion.
The alt catch up is the best it ever was... untill you get to Myth track. I dont know how to fix that, but its insane I can lvl up an alt, and gear IT up to ~615 on the same day (I LITTERALY did something like that, twice this season, and with very minor help of guildies), but then when you need to catch up on Myth items its INSANE slog, and Hero track is compleatly useless at high end beacuse of the 13ilvl gap
M plus this Season is so Great when you Are in a good group of Friends on Discord Spamming keys. Pugs on the other Hand Are just miserable. Especilly on the beginning of the Season they were so hard to pug i cant Imagine how many people just stopped playing m plus After week 1 or 2
I am one of those and I know a few that did the same. And I am a Healer / Tank main, playing Resto Druid/Shaman/PresEvoker as well as ProtPala, so I arguably have it a lot easier than the common pug guy to find groups and when people inevitably behave like idiots, its not that much of a loss to leave and go again. But after a while, the combination of m+ being meh this season with the "pugs being pugs" was so unbearable that I just stopped playing altogether.
@ Yes i feel you. Every Single Complain everyone has with m plus would be waaaaay less if the Dungeons were tuned in the beginning Like they Are now. But oh well its a small Indie Company.
@@_Augie i am on a german mobile phone and it does it automatically because it cant comprehend english. I am to lazy to Change any Setting or do it Right so it will stay Like this forever
Biggest problem with m+ pugging is actually getting into groups - wiping in raid, you can just go again for hours, you at least get to play the game and feel like your time commitment had some meaning. Wiping in m+ and depleting or everyone leaves, I'm back to queuing for 15-30 minutes. If I want to spend my time playing games, I should be able to actually play the game.
really though i maybe spend 10 hours a week this season jsut running keys that ge halfway done and somone leaves and that tiems is fully wasted, no gear no learning or prog no crests nothing, at that point its already nearly an hour loss sence geoups rarly fill fast even with a great team these days. becomes too time wasty
Yeah, and when you're a dps and people just quit mid key it's very demoralizing because you probably spent half an hour to get into it, now you wasted 15 more minutes and still haven't got any rewards.
Shouldn't be any depletion for keys imo. Manually lowering it is perfectly fine, but having a 10 deplete because of a leaver/dc feels bad. I like that 10s and portals require either great personal responsibility, or a good group. In season 4 of DF, we had a friend come back to the game since season one. We had 2 people carry him in one day to get all his portals with 2 other pugs and it was a pushover
The single MOST IMPORTANT problem for m+ is this: healing and tanking is not fun and too toxic and not enough people playing it. If they could fix this and 10x/20x the healing/tank population literally 90% of the issues would resolve itself. I dont understand how no one at Blizzard sees it.
Pvper and m+er here, in pvp especially solo shuffle you get extra currency for playing which I think is cool idea, also think having healer / tank specific awards or achievements would be cool, like if you tank all 8s and then 12s you get a title or a tabard or an illusion or something
I'm a tank and I personally don't tank M+ anymore. I don't have a dedicated group and pugging is pure stress, nothing fun about it. Feels like a job where everyone hates you.
3 of the tanks have a brez... then you have warrior, dh, and monk. DH is by design usually at least in a healthy spot. Monks and warriors could use some love as they are just boom or bust
To extend on this, for party buffs, warrior has a flat what? 3% damage boost? Pali has a flat 3% damage reduction. Druid a 3% vers boost, so 3% more damage dealt, 1.5% less damage taken. DH/monk 5% magic/physical damage buff respectively. DK has grips and AMZ (DK is also kinda screwed with how situational their tools are and they don't actually have a party buff) Good party buffs: pali and druid Alright: warrior Super situational: monk, dh, dk
@@RRckr910 Growl is actually part of another podcast and has an exclusivity contract between the two. Also they hate each other. Fuck The Bench. (the bench episode is next in my watch queue)
Its hilarious every single time max tries to relate to an average player. I dont think its possible to be more out of touch with the game than being max
@@evananthony4506 Was going to say this, I used to be a big growl fan but he's moved further and further away from being relevant to how I experience the game, despite even playing the same class. Hope they find their way back, they're good blokes.
Tanking when you can die as easy as you can right now is just pure stress. Imagine you have not a lot of xp doing the dungeons, you have to worry about what to pull, if you die everyone dies and the key is bricked, you have to know what all the mobs do, you do like 60% of a dps in damage. Add it all up and youre just trying not to fuck up for 30 minutes and if you do its instantly over. you dont feel good you are just avoiding feeling bad
This week a few guild members asked me if i could tank a dungeon for them (2500-2700io) because no tank was online in the guild. I'm a 2475io ret pally main that has never tanked a key this expansion. 3chested an 8 Ara-Kara and then went into Grim Batol 10... I got my butt blasted so hard i don't want to tank again.. It feels awful to wipe the group.
a tank death being a wipe and a brock is a great argment for why the 15sec death effix is ass. im sorry a tank making enough of a mistake to die once should not be enough to kill a key. no bodys gonna want to tank with that risk there even if they know deep downtheyd be good on it
That's how I feel about healing. Especially in pugs where people don't interrupt or stun hard hitting spells. On top of worrying about all the regular mechanics of the fights, I've gotta make sure everybody is healed and prioritize who to heal first AND contribute to dmg, all for the same rewards as the dps lol It would feel more rewarding if you were actually rewarded for the amount of effort you put in.
1:25:26 I disagree with max. Ive came late to this season and ive been running 8 and 10 pugs to catch back up. Nearly everyone slams out their aoe stops in the first 5 seconds of the pull in nearly every dungeon. Overlapping interrupts is what is causing problems, not the lack of using them.
1:04:30 it's because of the timer. If you have a class 5% better that makes beating the m+ timer more likely, you take it. You don't have that level of pressure in raid. Sure you have enrage timers, but you have 19 other people that may dilute how average you are.
I feel that completely. I've been lucky to have 1-3 players I have almost always done keys with since I started M+ and tanking in BFA so I always have communication and synergy in my keys. But trying to gear alts now that that my friends are basically raid logging mythic has felt awful. The synergy is bad and highly variable. The #1 thing I would recommend is if you want to have more success next season, assuming nothing with this current problem changes, is to pug and find a healer to push with that has a similar schedule. Having a consistent healer that you can comm with is really valuable and will smooth out a lot of pugs, and then you two can try and find a dps in your pugs as you play together. I think finding a guild with players around your skill level would be a good option especially if you can join the guild of a healer you find to play with in pugs. And if you're wondering how to invite the healers to play just send the a whisper about your intentions and interest to play more with them and send a friend request. Best of luck.
I think having scrolls and drums back to BFA levels would alleviate problems with comps. Blizz always said that taking those away would make classes more unique but all is does is pigeon hole you into having to bring certain specs.
Health needs to scale faster than damage with key level. The timer should always become a problem before survivability. Maximizing your classes tools to output the most damage or move as quickly as possible and chain pull packs together is fun. Desperately trying to survive every single pull in a high key by requiring a strong defensive or external to not get oneshot or spending half of your mental load trying to kick all 25 casts going off in a caster pack just isnt enjoyable gameplay to a lot of people. Make the timer matter before incoming damage matters and M+ becomes a significantly more fun experience overnight.
I was a main shadow priest for the whole expansion, I queued up for 12+ keys for more than 1000 times, 1 inv and we failled that one, than I decided to switch disc, now I get almost instant invite, and I went from 2750 to 3000 in 3 days.
Its basically making the divide between raiders and M+ players even larger. And the time committment to mythic raid AND push high keys is getting insane. It's almost impossible to do both on the same character, unless you get stupidly lucky and your raider spec happens to be meta in M+. If you are a healer who raids as anything other than Resto Shaman or Disc Priest atm, you need to gear and maintain a 2nd character for M+.
I think an under talked about issue with low keys (8s, etc) is that the players aren't entirely clueless, so they watch content - and then attempt to mirror those pulls, well above their skill level and honestly WELL above what is needed to even time that key. It makes the 8 feel much harder then it actually is for a lower end player.
The sad truth of this season: Even before the "nerf" to Challenger's Peril, if you just single pulled every pack the entire dungeon, you would likely time the dungeon. But people are so monkeybrain big number that they felt the need to do the big pulls anyways.
But what could be done to combat that? Not have streamers show their routes? We already have a very "press W" kind of way in dungeons at the moment, probably more so than ever before at some point it becomes the player responsibility to not try and be the next Gobbo, Quazzi, Dorki or whoever they're watching We can't even say "oh streamers need to put out a video that shows why you do this skip, or why not to pull this mob" as we have the extremely detailed videos from Quazzi that go through basically what each mob does in each M+ dungeon down to a pull by pull basis at some points
For many players(myself included), they would not care if they timed a key if it meant having to pull 1 pack at the time :) especially as a tank player, that is boring af
There is a pretty nasty overlap with the current affix that spawns the extra add. If you are doing the pull with one of the damage reduction beetles in Ara Kara. The affix mob also gets that 50% damage reduction. So you are in a scenario where you either let the affix mob stack up its damage reduction on the mobs, while you are killing the beetle, or you kill the affix add while its taking half damage.
You are missing obvious point that ile affixes never happend during Boss fights. It xalatath affixes also happend only during trash they would be soo much more accepted by players. Also you all discuss +10 and higher from mythic raider perspective so 630+ people. Find someone WHO does +9 pugs in like 619 itlv and then they will tell you all the horrors of current season
ok of the non-seasonsls, the ones that didn't affect bosses (unless you pulled trash onto them): Sanguine, Raging, Teeming, Bursting, Spiteful, Inspiring, Bolstering ones that did: Grievous, Quaking, Entangling, Afflicted, Incorporeal, Overflowing (lol), Storming, Necrotic, Explosive, Volcanic, Skittish (admittedly the last few on this list tended to only be problems on boss fights with adds)
> Main character of wow > Literally included in every patch note > CEO has a personal pager that let's them know when mage is not the main character > Mages still complain. Reroll you dork. You don't deserve mage. Edit: to be slightly less cynical, Mages are absolutely overflowing with utlity and unique effects. I don't care if you're also not top damage on top of that. The vast majority of Mages aren't even tapping into the endless power and potential a mage has because it's actually a difficult class. If you can't handle it reroll.
@@doubleshine I think it would be interesting if they were % based, kinda like prideful. Maybe every 10-15% they spawn? So it’s controllable, to a degree. That can also make for interesting routing. Could also lead to degenerate routing lol. Could also maybe have them tied to certain mob packs? Idk, I feel like there are several ways they could do it that would avoid the atrocious overlaps on boss fights.
It isn't fun to battle against the environment (Affixes) when compared to real enemies/bosses. It's the absolute opposite of fun game design. Megg summed it up well.
well the idea is that in high keys every cast etc. is scary. so adding affixes on top becomes a lot to deal with. while in lower keys nothing really matters all that much so theres more room to deal with it.
@@OMFGcataFAN1 You are right, but isn't this the reason for doing high keys? What is the deal for doing high keys and then saying: "Oh its so hard, we don'T want to have affixes to make it easier". In my opinion it doesn't matter if there is affixes on high keys, because it is the same for everybody. Means if you add the affixes and it gets harder then the doable keylevel goes down. Means people might push 15s instead of 18s and 19s. But they will still be the best of the best, only the number of the stone is lower. Whats the deal about this? Additionally I like the idea of saying: "I am a +15 pusher and love it do not have affixes, but yes they are great and I love that people that are struggling to do a 7 get punished by affixes do make it even harder to time it". I totaly can rlete to that.
@@OMFGcataFAN1 Yeah but the mobs already have mechanics. There doesn't need to be extra mechanics. It's just a failed design and blizzards ego is too big to admit the affixes suck. The problem with affixes is they aren't designed for the dungeons, so all that happens is they create random BS situations. No reason for them to exist.
@@Xerus35 blizzard said they want affixes or inconsistencies(which rotating affixes provide) in your average m+ experience, so that the random guy that runs +5s with his friends or w/e always has new challenges etc. i think the same reason is why a keystone exists(force them to run different dungeons), so your average joe doesnt burn out, which is def important for a game's health
"overdesigning" feels like the core issue with all things wow at the moment. There's just such a complex web of abilities at this point, it becomes very difficult to properly balance it all and still make everything rewarding. I do think that simplifying can be a bit better.
Maybe the time penalty per death should scale progressively?! So the first 5 deaths cost you 5s/death, then 6-10 cost 10s/death, and so on. This would make it less punishing to start pulls aggressively and fail once or twice, but still prevent constant corpse-running, by incentivising you to pull smaller if you overextend . Also, you could have routes with planned deaths, but those would make subsequent unplanned deaths more costly, balancing it out a bit.
I think that the challenge of it is fine for me personally with a group of friends. unless you’re looking to do some lax pug keys where you just wanna chill which is what I think the majority wants back.
I think that the best way to fix the problem of only the best "specs" get brought. beside Blizz being better and tuning specs is Get rid of key depletion or make it so that a key needs to be failed 3 times to deplete. Or get rid of key depletion below 10 or 12 or some level. M+ players will always riot if you suggest getting rid of the timer so keep it but tweak depletion. That way overall the community as a whole will be less worried to take an "off meta" spec because at worse you don't time but you still get most of what you need you just don't move up. Also this fixes lower keys for the more casual players and more folks play M+ Then for the folks that really love high keys they can make their uber meta comps and push as needed.
One of the best healers in the game - Meg - says @ 44:15 "I don't necessarily like healing .. " 1. She doesn't PUG !! 2. She plays with her groups and some of the other best players in the game If she doesn't really like healing .. whats that say about PUG healers with PUG groups ? Very telling. There are fundamental basic problems with the game design of M+ ...... Dorki - Making Tanks and Healers way more powerful - good for the masses - bad for the 'elite' - would be good for more people - would get more subs - but the try hards would complain - would it make the game more fun ? Hell fkin yea it would .. make wow make me go WOW !!
What I'd like to see in m+ would be 1) Either just had all buffs applied to us at the start of a key like old challenge mode OR the scrolls from MoP Remix where it was possible to gain ALL raid buffs with them. 2) Kicks work something like dispels where if they fail then they go on cd for ~3 secs instead of completely wasted.
I think Dorki's on the right track about feedback from failing mechanics - people don't like doing less damage, but even that's a thing that people without damage meters or who don't have eyes on their debuff bars can easily miss. The real strong feedback is effects that limit your ability to play in some way: stuns, silences, roots, slower move/cast speed, etc. These are more impactful on higher keys, where you're more likely to get killed by other mechanics and the lost damage means more on tighter timers, but they're noticeable at any level. Even something not too punishing like a 1-second daze gets players' attention in a way that raw damage often doesn't. They also have the advantage of not being as much of a big "you are bad damage" badge in the way that got people raging at Megasett's suggestion of damage down debuffs.
Drops the crest upgrade, just use stones to upgrade the gear. The higher ilvl the gear the more valid stones needed and the higher the key the more stones you get. This allows the sweaty people to gear very quickly to push high keys but also lets everyone continue to work towards upgrades regardless of the skill / key lvl they can complete. Means as the season goes on you can slowly increase your key level, a lot of us get ksm / ksh near the end of the season because of help from ilvl. Now we’re stuck around 610-619 and get bored.
For how much shit people gave Brackenhide, it had some of the best design aspects I've seen in a dungeon. I remember those Warmonger Gnolls had bladestorm channel which was an enrage, so as a hunter I could negate that mechanic. However if it went off it also had the counterplay of melee just having to move out of range. Similarly you had the assasins which you could reveal with flare, but if you didn't the tank could also just deal with the initial boosted hit by using a defensive. There was also a mob that would shadowstep behind you and cast a very quick poison. As a hunter you could feign death it to cancel the cast, but also if it hit you someone else could dispel the poison. Having mechanics like this that have mutliple solutions need to be in every dungeon. Wayyyy to many mechanics in the TWW dungeons have only 1 answer which is what is upsetting people and cementing certain specs in the meta no matter their tuning. Things like the curse healing absorb need to be dispelled when the player uses a defensive for example. Or atleast the value of the absorb should get halved. This way you still have a way around it even if you don't have a curse dispel. I could go on forever about how to give every mechanic an extra way to solve it.
I AM a lore person, and it IS possible to give everyone Lust and a rez. Warrior: "Fervor" "As a warrior you dig deep in your soul and find the power to roar, and inspire your Party/Raid members to attack faster for XX amount of time." Warrior: "Eleventh-hour." "In dire times you dig deep and roar, Threatening the Kyrian to not take this soul just yet." *Battle Rez* Warrior: "Med-Kit." A good warrior knows how to fight, and when to heal. Using your Medicine Kit, you are able to remove *insert debufs here* *Dispel* Paladin: "Righteousness" "You call upon the light to channel through you, and through your Zeal and Righteousness you inspire your party/Raid members to to attack faster for XX amount of time." *Lust/hero* Monk: "Shadow Pan's Might." "You like the guardians of the wall know that at certain times you must give your all and then some to fight on. Your cry Inspires your Party/Raid Members to attack faster for XX Amount of time." *Lust/hero* Priest: "Power Word: Bless" "As an avatar of the Light you call upon its Grace, and bless your Party/Raid Members to attack faster for XX Amount of time." *Lust/hero* Priest: "Shadow Word: Censure" "You lash out at your target with a shadow word freezing their throat interrupting their ability to cast a spell, locking them out of that spell for XX amount of time." *Interrupt* Priest: "Resurgence" "Favored by the light, you pass its blessing on to a fallen Party/Raid member returning them to life." *Battle Rez.* It really isn't hard to dig even lightly through WoW's lore. Dungeons and Dragons, and any other Fantasy game to fine examples for these things. Making them fit into lore? Just as easy as I displayed here. Systems is a bad word sometimes, but they could do this and call it Tactics. Tactics is a system through which classes can unlock class specific small group/party abilities allowing them greater flexibility in Party sized content. This way it only works in Dungeons, and in Delves. Doesn't affect PvP, and it doesn't affect Raids. leaving Pvp, and raids as they are now, while opening up comp variety in Delves, and Mplus environments.
@@blalhoihreuf All Tactics would be meant to do is open up comp diversity in MPlus and Delves. Problem with god comps in Mplus, is one is always going to exist as long as niches need to be filled, and tuning is over tuned. Tactics won't fix tuning, but it would take "niches" off that table for MPlus. So you need a lust and no one is signing up? Tactics could handle that. Need an interrupt on everyone, but your healer is a priest? tactics could handle that.
Imo the ever scaling environment should be the only addition in M+. You do the dungeons in order to reach as high as you can and find your limits, not to play with the carnival minigames games that off-set not only abilities, but plans as well. Affixes so far are generally 95% only feel bad moments, annoyances.
It's crazy how good megasetts takes were from the healer perspective. I personally really dislike m+ this season and now im convinced its cuz I choose to be a healer. The overlaps of mechanics with the affix is the worst thing ever, the baseline level of kicks and dispels being so radically different across classes is insane (the whole 10 globals vs 1 discussion), the over-designed dungeons....and the comp restrictions due to baseline class kits all resonate with me.
I know it's an old argument, but I feel like the solution to a lot of the m+ problems is just to increase player healthpools massively, even with no other changes.
I've been saying what Megasett was saying, about allowing bufffs for m+ only, since BfA! Like they have the Font of Power, there could be a drop down of what buffs you want (up to 5, one for each party member) as well as who you want to have a bres(s) and lust. It would allow you to build your comps and buffs suitable for what you and your friends want to play. Also (and Im gonna keep saying this until they change it), REMOVE KEY STONES! Use the delve/torghast system!! You complete a 3 and +3 it, you can now do up to 6 for that dungeon. Would get rid of some of the toxicity of people leaving and bricking your key and also allowing you to try people who might be lower geared but had good io last season and might be a good player, but you arent inviting them cause they havent done much in the current season. If they suck or mess up a mechanic, can just zone out and go again. They NEED to do this, imo. EDIT: Also, max with the interrupts giving you a buff is something I miss (as a warrior). I remember I learned to interrupt because it used to give Fury a damage buff for a short duration after interrupting. I wanted to interrupt everything. I now am really good at kicking because of that carrot on the end of the stick making me/teaching me to want to interrupt. I like that idea for defensives too.
Im an avid solo m+ grinder. Every season since legion, I've geared multiple healers to "ksm level". I think adding damage/haste downs to missed defensives and getting hit by avoidable damge would be fantastic to the future health of the game. There is a massive difference between players doing 4 keys and farming 10 keys. So many lower key players dont push there non damage abilities because they dont need to. They also arent taught that they should. The lower players just think and see through their character. If there health goes down thats the healers job. They are dps and there to do damage.
Is there a reason that the appearance changing item cant also change your racial? You just actually become a panda for an hour? Make the scroll only do appearance but make a potion or something to change racials as well?
I posted on forum a few years ago that tanks should be split into lust/rez, warriors, vengence BrM get lust and Bears, Bdk, pally gets rezzez This would help so much with comp restrictions, in theory 50% of the time, your tank brings a mandatory utility and then you can fill the other half with the 4 spots.
1:21:34 I think Dorki and Max fundamentally misunderstand why 'weak' healers are more fun than strong healers. It's not that we and a challenge, it's that we want breathing room to make decisions and have some stratification in potential damage profiles. If healers are strong and can top players quickly, then the only way to threaten players is to do 80% of your health bar with every hit, which means players have to be kept at 100% all the time or they'll die. It's not fun to have people's health bars act like a yo-yo. It's not fun to be 'strong' as a healer because it reduces the amount of nuance and decision making available to you. When healers are weak and can't push up bars in a single global, you also don't need to kill people in a single global.
Exactly, if you have more output then you just go to higher keys that match the increased output. And if in higher keys the dps have to reduce the damage that they take, then that sounds like the most natural problem to have - if you want to beat harder challenges, you have to play better.
i preferred the old currency for upgrading, being able to help out with low keys in exchange for getting the valor i needed for upgrades was nice instead of only being able to do 8 and 9 over and over to slowly get the crests i need
the thing that I think gets missed in the "how to engineer the 15 second death penalty" convo is this: the actual time penalty of /wipes/ (or any non-brezzed death) varies by like a factor of 5 because of how inconsistent graveyards are, so like. if we're talking about making a few seconds tweak here or there they can't actually engineer a goal of "1.5 wipes" without fixing the absolutely huge variance
There needs to be some system where if a tank dies, it’s not basically an immediate wipe. It drastically increases the stress on tank where one mess up just full wipes the group. Either some immunity to melee swings after a tank death, or every tank has a unhealable purgatory that is only removed by a BR. Or just always have a cheat death trinket in the loot pool.
52:45 I Think a good example of This was first boss court og stars and Mass dispell, you didnt need Mass dispell at all, many classes Can remove it by themselves or simply just jump. But if you had a priest it was like “oh thats kinda cool i get to save a global or 2 now” by no means was Mass dispell needed there, but it felt kinda good to have a priest on that boss
Its not healing absorb, but its not that simple spam healing 2-3 people with 50% shield when there is priory damage going on, if you play with full pugs zero dispel comp you will see what misery it is. There are some healers like disc that can overheal shit tons but not everything is like than and there no way im sending cds just for an affix unless it align with stuff you already need cds for every damage event. On top of that its even worse playing on a boss with prio dispels and that affix like sob.
@@t.g7545 Idk, have personally never had any issues with it, there is no stress to get it off super quick, so healers can take 2-3 dispells and every class with a dispell has the time to dispell themselves and another person.
@@Kechavx As i said the point is how bad it feels in worst case not best or average, if you have like bear and another dispeller or shaman its piss easy unless they are not clicking their buttons. But i have been in like prot,havoc,rogue,dk group and its complete misery. Often a lot of dps are stupid and they don't even handle two but just dispel themselves and that is without counting the millions other dispel that you have to deal with at same time with the affix. Dispel affixes are just trash unless blizzard make it healable in 2 globals and 1 if you dispel it not like 5.
@@t.g7545 This must be a low key thing, i have never seen the affix go off and i always do atleast 16 10's every week. I literally don't even know what the punishment of it going off is, that is how easy the affix is, compare that to literally any old affix, explosive, teeming, skittish, bolstering, sanguine, all of those were like 10-20 times worse to deal with. But i guess wow players always have to complain about something.
I think a great example of getting rewarded for using a defensive is something like Touch of Karma, hitting it at the right time and not seeing your health bar move and then putting a DoT on the target for an amount of the damage absorbed is super satisfying. Seeing that spread across other classes either in just raw damage or into a resource like with AMS would be great.
Im 617ilvl unh, takes around 100 signups until i get invited into a +8 even tho ive timed 3 8's and rest on 7. I blast the dung on my unh, do cc, know mechanics but still not getting any inv after 1h i just log off and play another game. Ppl are so gatekeeping, and i absolutely destroy anyone on dps so far, sometimes those 625-630 ppl doing way below my dmg while they are 10+ ilvl higher. This system is just bad and the ppl with 2.3-3k rio are even worse cause they think they are mdi players and only want insane ilvl for the content they doing and most of them fotm groups dont even play decent, they get carried by the tank and healer. System=bad. M+ community=bad.
You’re 100% right. I think best solution to this is to add a solo queue and remove key downgrades. It’s a fricken game… all content should have a solo queue. Mythic Raids should ONLY drop unique cosmetics. This is how I would remove gatekeeping on ilvl.
Im at 2.9k on main and 2.7k on my tank alts, the main reason i dont invite low Rio is because of key depletion, but im starting not giving a fuck cause even 3k Rio players are dumb most of the keys, they just focus on dps, no kicks, no utility usage. Terribile experience si far, luckily ive an healer friend to queue with or id have quit already
I don't think it's gatekeeping. Sometimes it might be but put up your own key and watch how many DPS sign up. DPS players are a dime a dozen. How do you choose who to invite? Naturally you invite the higher io people, possibly get a lust. You have to choose somehow. Why would they invite you when 20 people who have done 10s signed up? It's also not like unholy is bad, they play it in mdi and it's a really good spec for m+. The problem always comes down to healer and tank shortage. There are not enough of them to support these hundreds of pug DPS players floating around. They need to make tanking and healing better and more enjoyable.
@@Famedawg how do you determine the matchmaking for solo queue? Do you have to get a certain io to be able to do certain key levels?Do I have to time every dungeon as +3 before I can queue for +4s for example or does each dungeon have its own seperate ladder for progress since some are easier than others? Do you lose io for constantly bricking keys? Would you feel good about losing io? What about when a bad player gets carried to say +10s by their friend and then tries to solo queue and they constantly brick keys for everyone, do they get punished because they are ruining keys for 4 others that deserve to be there. Would you be happy getting stuck in a 30 min dungeon with that player by chance? At least now you can sort of vet people if you want. Do you seperate solo queue from 5 man party io? And then one of the ladders will naturally be less prestigious, like the difference between solo queue and flex in league of legends for example and gatekeeping will just take a different form. Then there is also the tank and healer shortage. You are still going to wait 30+ mins for a queue as a DPS because they are a dime a dozen. As long as there isn't enough tanks and healers that will always be an issue.As you can see there are lots of new problems that can arise from a queue system. It has just as much potential to be bad as it does to be good.
Here's a half baked thought on the ~1:27:00 convo; an M+ only mechanic where DPS get a ramping damage buff, capped at lets say 5 stacks for 3% damage each. This buff needs to be protected or else it resets. Defensives on the big hit will protect it, staying out of avoidable damage will protect it. Ramps with in combat time a player stays safe, and can be ramped quicker with use of certain utility like dispels and kicks.
Problem with this podcast is TheY Put 4 High End PLAYERS to talk about M+ LOL? Put Some Of 90% ppl that cant time +12 and see what They gona tell you For sure it wont be what Dorki says
You’re just running into the same issue but at the opposite end of the spectrum. Players who try and can’t time 12s at this point in the season have no valuable insight into why that is the case. “Make it easier” is not a compelling argument.
@JimSmith-g2d Those were the reasons we got target caps in the first place. They don't want us just pulling everything and killing it in a few seconds.
@@shokura Why though? Mass pulling is fun if you can handle it. Having to be methodical in every single pull is beyond boring. There is a reason dungeons like motherload were fan favorites. Pulling big and hitting big is simply fun.
So the most hard-core I will go is Heroic Raid and maybe get the KSH. That being said I after hearing this I thought why not add M+ Tallents like the PVP specific ones. This way you can buff the M+ community without changing the class right away. You can add for instance a talent that on a successful interrupt the target takes 10% more dmg for 8 seconds or you can have warriors heroic throw also interrupt a cast this way they can interrupt at range too. To me it seems that this could help a lot. It's extra abilities to help in a smaller group to either buff yourself or your party like the pvp talents work in BGs or Arena.
In my old guild we would help guild members stomp out some low keys, like 2-15 range, until they felt a bit overwhelmed, and that was fine, it was fun. Having so many levels meant everyone could get in on the content and get some loot. Some of the better players would get portals in later expansions and again everyone felt great. This new system is just an unmitigated disaster that puts 95% of the community into the same 6 keys levels which is awful. Not to mention they killed all loot progress which means there is less reason to do leys which means you are burnt out faster. Its so bad that I almost feel they are trying to get rid of m+. My sub ran out today and im done for the expansion unless serious are changes are made. Oh and thats not even getting into things like the stop changes with AOE interupts, target caps, terrible class balance and them deciding to do class reworks 5 weeks in, costing people hundreds of thousands of gold to recraft. Just a complete clown show.
y, same for me. canceled 2weeks ago and will probably not coming back if they don´t make hard changes to gearing. I can tank a 10 with ilvl 606, but it´s only fun once. And it still sucks if you know you can press the buttons better than most but it will accomplish nothing if you don´t have infinite time to grind gear as a non myth-raider. and you also can´t help your friends much this saison. all in all just way too much punishment for about no reward.
I’m not sure why I’ve not heard anyone say this on any podcast but I think if they got rid of the guile affix at 12 be replaced with the 15 sec death timer. This doesn’t punish pug lower keys and makes the dungeons harder for those pushing higher levels and checks the needed skill appropriately. I think this would do tons to fix the frustration.
Most healers should have some kind of acid rain like effect in their tree so they can do damage while healing, for the people that just like healing. Not as good as a proper damage rotation. There was a game called RIFT and for a time there were 4 healer specs. There was the damage to heals like atonement. There was a damage 'beacon' where healing the target did splash damage around them. There was a HoT healer who had a hot that had a proc to add X damage on the target's next attack. There was a shield healer that did damage on a shield being removed by damage. Since every healer could do damage you never felt forced to have the damage to heal healer in your groups.
Dorki is so out of touch that he thinks M+ is amazing. Worst season ever made if you’re a pug and the difficultly jumps are horrible for most players in general.
I've enjoyed m+ and 75% of my experience is in pugs. Ya group finder has been miserable. I get while some don't like it I've enjoyed it on the other hand.
Seems like pug players already forgot about the key level squish and Bolstering, Bursting, Sanguine, Quaking, Grievous, Teeming, Necrotic, Explosive, Raging, Spiteful, Incorporeal, Afflicted, Storming, Volcanic... Sure, the 15 seconds from Peril feels bad, but nothing compared to a bolstering or bursting Everbloom. Or Raging anything. Or Sanguine with archers. Or half the old affixes alone in any dungeon really, and you had 2 of them to deal with at a time. Or any boss with a totem on Tyr week. I've been doing keys since Legion and actual high keys since last season of SL, went up to +24 in DF S3, +16 after the squish in S4, and I think now is the best it's ever been.
@@VDHmain The fact that they brought in the extra 90 seconds for each dungeon, to ease the pain of 15 seconds for a death, shows that they know they made a mistake but instead of taking it back to 5 seconds, they did a band aid fix and it's not enough for the average pugger
@@kickthunt4239 Sure, but the reason people can't do 12s isn't Peril, it's Guile plus the loss of the buff from the +2 affixes. Depending on the week, you lose 20% crit, haste, vers, or mastery every 90 seconds, which is basically two thirds of a bloodlust. The jump from 11 to 12 is more like 11 to 14, which is more than most can handle without a ton of prog. Peril feels bad but it just lowers the level of key where a death means a brick.
First, we need to fix all the salty leaver. Leaving a key, or being off-line for more than 5 minutes after a key has started, while the timer is still going, should give you an account wide deserter debuff, that prevents you from joining any other keys in the next 24 hours. This should only apply to the first leaver / person going offline, so it can not be used to troll other peoples keys by leaving immediately after it starts to keep the other 4 hostages until the timer runs out.
get rid of key depletion: common arguments for key depletion: 1) you can just grind the dungeon a 100 times, and then eventually get lucky! No, this is called learning. 2) it will cause people to kick easily a) this is already a problem when choosing party members, if people are unknowns or low tier they have to wait forever. without key depletion you can give other classes/specs and lower rated players a chance b) if you kick someone, you will fail the key and have to start over. this is a huge time sink. people aren't going to be willy nilly kicking people, and if you do, the other play can /ignore you so you won't party with them again, and many people won't do this, they'll try the key.
1:27:00 I think maybe utilizing silence and disarm could be a way to go. Make it not apply to defensive spells, and basically cause you to not be albe to cast offensive damage spells for 1,5-2 seconds. Sure it might be very controversial, but it's a start.
The most fun ever what when mistweaver could gear haste and blanket heal the entire raid with enveloping mist. You didn’t need to care about the mechanics that much, all you had to do was do your rotation and keep renewing the hots fast enough. Was amazing to be able to keep increase your throughput as the fight progress and the longer you could keep going, the more you healed it was so much fun and that playstyle has never returned again and it makes me sad, second most fun was when you could glimmer the entire raid as an Hpal and just burst everyones HP constantly as long as you could keep crusader strike
Hey guys, I love the points you brought up. I just have 1 thing I don't agree with: playing a healer is way more fun and satisfactory "for me" than any DPS. There is no feeling like when the party drops to 1 HP, then you pop your cooldowns and heal the shit out of everyone. Also, the adrenaline that comes with the whole fate of the party being on your shoulder is just unmatched for me.
I personally cant understand why they dont bring something like m+ soloq. when i come from work and wanna push solo pugging, i waste 80-90% of my freetime after work in queue. every season you see the huge decline past the puggable since nobody can ivnest the time to play up keys and throw it depleto to the public pug.. its long overdue they implement a system that saves time. i can not push keys to 0.1% at all in my circumstance, its just so time consuming, it'd be madness far beyond comprehension. i tried the push multiple times, but i simply cant hang 12-16h per day in queue anymore.. and thats most of the playerbase
The biggest problem with the M+ queue idea is why would healers or tanks bother with it? When I pug as a healer, I tend to be picky with what groups I even apply to and when I do find a group I like I get into it more often than not. Absolutely no reason to bother with a queue where I don't get to pick anything.
@@sinnis4993 The reality is that 80%+ people decline over the first couple of weeks every season. its a pure time waste grinding in 0,1% range without a team, and even for people of lower rating, the time invest is simply not worth it. why would tank and healer bother? same reason as now. shorter queue time. fun at playing the role? i mean nothing really changes beides the fact you radnomize your teammates.
Consider the option of a dungeon completion bonus, AND an extra time bonus (completion awards crests, and based on time there is crest bonus for time that is not just a binary timed or not timed amount). The extension of this is a leader board for time (like MDI for the masses), and another for completion (same as now): this way speed running becomes a sport on lower keys for all skill levels. In addition I think the barrier to top level gear is too high. The tuning should make top level gear attainable by the average player, because the player power is not even until we are all wearing BIS gear at the top ilvl.
As Dorki said, let us please play the game. There is too much shit happening in the dungeons. I have time to do 1 dungeon after work, maybe two. if Im waiting half a fucking hour to get into a group that makes me just play something else. there were already not enough tanks doing 10s-15s in shadowlands S4, what on earth makes them think making tanking harder is a good idea is beyond me.
agreed. I'm at a level where I can reasonably do this content, but it stopped being about fun and started being about everything being a challenge. Challenges can be fun, but it needs to be more than that-- and to me, the dungeons do not feel like there's much that makes them actually fun due to the difficulty overload (not even numerically, just how the dungeons are designed nowadays with the cc changes, tons of casts every single pack with a bunch of trash mechanics, etc.) It's made me quit almost entirely tbh, haven't done M+ in a month and finally was able to get a replacement for my raid slot this week after wanting to quit for the past 3 weeks. I'm happy for everyone having fun with this level of challenge but the difficulty combined with the lengthy gearing process which creates months of all but mandatory chores, plus the time commitment to play this game at a decent level in general is just too much. At least the sweaty gods at the game are enjoying themselves. Hell, casual players seem to be enjoying themselves for the most part too because they gave up on getting gear and don't even want to raid mythic most of the time. For anyone in between this season has seemed pretty grating.
Dude, none of these hosts can comprehend there are people who love this game that cannot dedicate 12 hours of day to it... unfortunately, the devs are delusional as well, and keep trying to get us hooked so hard that we have no other choice than to leave... In SL dungeons were enjoyable, yet these dudes step all over SL because they couldn't change covenants 5 times a day because they can't understand that it is a game and that you're not supposed to play 20 keys a day or clear raid 3 times a day...
My take for how to fix (or at least improve) grp diversity in m+: in either 10+ or 12+ keys and up lust should be a zone ability when the key starts, and all raid buffs should be active (including monk and DH). I could elaborate but I won't at this time.
As someone who loves the Detroit Lions and PoddyC my worlds collided in the best possible way with Dorki's thumbnail this episode. Also make Megasett a more regular guest. She's the only cool healer main.
As a DPS the new affixes are super fun. As a healer, I have to play with one hand because the other one is used to have phone in hand for a speed dial for my therapist. You have bullet hell mechanics where everyone is taking like 80% of their hp as damage even when people avoid mechanics and then Xal'atath shows up to tell ''Yo, 50% of your HP bar must now be healed, and its going to be your problem'' while still having to execute the same mechanics.
I love the idea of rewarding doing mechanics correctly. Instead of damage downs I would instead do damage +% for correctly doing mechanics (and maybe also +healing for healers). Combined with a very clear visual/audio effect so that we know when we fail/pass mechanics would be a great way to help the general player base learn! Sorry guys last comment I swear!
What they really need to do is just prune about 50% of the defensives and 50% of the stops. I'm not going to say 8's are harder than 12's, but I'm going to go strictly to why guild groups are so much better than pugs. In a guild group, you have thunderstorm, kick, stun, knock, AoE fear, sigils ect all pretty much routinely going off. You have people who are getting hit by those one or two things popping defensives. Go into a PUG +8? You have 10 different events go off in the span of 5 seconds, you have people being double and triple tapped. Even in linear progression, there's a point where you just die. If it's stopped it does nothing, but if you don't stop it in a +13 or +14 it kills you 2 times over. What Meg is missing on the "the healer could have just healed through this", that's a common response because people are trained that they can get hit by things and the healer can heal through that one thing, but the game is not great at communicating the healer didn't heal through THIS thing because 3 other things happened and it's why you died. If they nerfed all the ways to stop mobs, nerf all the defensives and made the healers more reliably able to handle things in the dungeons it would both be more fun, and more consistent. The healers really need to be yelling at the top of their lungs how healing is a cosmetic role 60% of the time in decent groups, 90% of the time in great groups, and is the most miserable experience in the world in bad groups. Most people don't see Blizzard "fixing" the root cause of the problem, they just keep giving people more and more. Everyone is expecting them to fix Holy/Disc Priests not having a kick by them moving Silence to the general tree, when what they need to do is remove kicks from all healers and lower the amount of kicks needed in the dungeons to compensate for it.
I like having defensives, damage rotations are easy to master and so having a defensive rotation is a fun addition. The game is just worse for 4/5 members of the party if they have to rely on a healer to live.
I would argue the game is significantly better. At least if you're dying in that scenario it's intuitive the healer did something wrong. Right now you can do a +10 of the same keystone 6 different times, survive the shadow bolt 5 times and dead the 6th run because the mage who's not you missed a kick/defensive and had to get a burst heal 2 seconds ago. That is not intuitive or good design that you died because someone else made a mistake, and that caused the resource to be used else where.
What about Mythic+ moving to the Delve system? To be able to run a +6 you have to at least time a +5. You don't need a key, you just set your level and run in. +1 +2 etc gives more crests. Every day, 4 of the dungeons are 'Bountiful' which just increases the crest reward from that dungeon for that day.
I love listening to these but my God it's like listening to super rich people trying to figure out why people are poor or middle class.
😂😂😂😂😂
Yeah the level of how out of touch with the majority of the player base is astounding. I actually think Max thinks "pugging" with people that follow his streams is in any way comparable to an actual pug just baffled me. Also like that the consensus was that affixes were fine because it basically doesn't impact them (combination of being very good players and grouping with like the top 1% of players only). Maybe not the majority opinion, but for me removal of affixes would be the optimal solution for M+.
@@Hans_Unique_Handle Yeah i remember watching Max doing 27, 28 keys, wich has been my absolute max limit. And he just chills through it not even knowing mechanics. Clearly boosted by real pros. Nah thats not "pugging" :D
Dorki Loves M+ right now, because he has a grp to play with and is not in the cesspool of pugging
Well it’s his experience and playing in a coordinated group be it friends or guild mates turning m+ from hell to enjoyable isn’t new. Find a guild or network or be fine doing 10s for your vault and don’t engage with m+ beyond that. Those are the options if you don’t wanna end in misery.
@@andersjensen1475 get a group urself
Literally make one friend and it’s infinitely more fun. It’s an mmo bruh
I’m confused, hasn’t he always had a group? Or atleast players of notable skill level/multi-title players? I wouldn’t compare that to pugging if that’s the case. LFG pugging is a different type of hell.
@@Sly_404 so how about the fact that the majority of the playerbase can't exactly lineup their schedules to be in a coordinated group or guild. I am in a guild but these guys are only on 1 day a week because of work and family. Stop thinking like the niche few that play this game for 100's of hours a week and put yourself in the shoes of the working class.
Meg is my favorite PoddyC host who’s name start starts with M.
Hahahaha nice. Max loves these digs.
What about Mratnos
there has only ever been 1 host i can think of whos name starts with M.
cause the usual is just Limit Max, Dratnos, and Dorki(n'it)
Woah @@gamerunknown9472
Mrowl in shambles
Meg’s statement at 1:28:57 is exactly my sentiment and something I can relate to. I love wow, but the time commitment for this game, and to be able to reach near the top, let’s say top 25% or higher, is to high for anyone who doesn’t play this game as their full time job. I want to reach 3k each season, but I’m not doing that this season because my work schedule only allows me the privilege of playing twice a week and I’m constantly playing catchup with the minor chores and other things I want to do in game along with raiding to be able to push M+ at an even reasonable level. I don’t think I’m alone also. I think I’m part of the “Everyman”.
I don’t really get this. I feel like as everything in life if you want to achive something you need to invest into it. is the game less fun to play not having a 3k rating?
@Ascarthor you’re correct in that, anything one desires in life takes dedication and sacrifice. This wasn’t a critique on the game on my part yet I think it was on her part, and she’s a career streamer. It was more of a statement that, it does require a sacrifice to achieve, one in which the majority of players can’t sustain. I’m not a top mythic raider, but I’d venture to say that those who are in the CE category aren’t playing at a casual pace. M+ in particular should have a linear sort of progression in terms of continual improvement over time lets say after 8-12 weeks one of a casual pace “should” be able to progress past 12s with time, practice and patience. But currently there is a sort of brick wall that one hits at the 12 range that many, including myself can’t sustain due to a multitude of factors and I think that’s what she was referring too. I may be wrong. I’m not advocating for, “welfare handouts”, but that feeling of being able to continually progress is a good feeling. The brick wall isn’t. At its current iteration, it feels like, to many, in order to progress you have to play as if it’s your job and that takes the fun out of it for a lot of people and for a lot of people that’s most of the more casual players, which are the bread and butter of this game. I think that’s what she was advocating for in that statement. I believe it’s the same issue pvpr’s are facing now. In the past 2400 was the defacto standard or median point that anyone with casual play, time, practice and patience could reach. Today, 2400 is just now being reached by Picabo which is one of the best players period. Another career streamer. The issue is, the rewards are tied to 2400 which at its current iteration is unachievable by nearly the entire pvp community. That’s not good or fun.
This comment is so cooked, crazy how many people liked this. 3k rating is top 1% in the game. Do you believe you are a top 1% player? Do you believe you should be able to achieve the top 1% level "casually"? What kind of disneyland world do you think this is? "I want to casually become a professional athlete". Your work schedule doesn't even matter. People play this game all day every day and still won't achieve that.
Max: “basically pugging with stream viewers” *maxes viewers are CE raiders and probably high M+ / title pushers*
Hi, it's me a max stream viewer that is literally two mechagnomes in a trenchcoat
Not all of us...but yea, by the very definition, vievers of a world first guild GM will be MUCH better than avg pug, and definitly 924912u934248712821317246532 times better than vievers of casual channels like T&E (ok, meby bad example of casual channel, cuz everyone and their mother watches weekly reset at the very least, it's just fun content, even if they say stiupid shit some of the time, but you get my point)
@@xsardes336 id rather gouge my eyes out than watch T&E
@@SparkyDiesAlot the thing was, T&E was fine. They had a goofy ass channel and segments but then T decided to go batshit crazy and get all personal about other creators. Made me think of them differently. If he wouldn't have had that crazy period, the general sentiment would be more positive around them
@@Sargaxiist2022 yeah he now seems liek the kinda guy whos super fake on camera and is probably a piece of shit IRL
Having to farm 1200+ runed/gilded crests to have a viable alt is huge hassle.
Dont worry blizz gave us gildes crest catch up, once you equip 639 in each slot... genius
I'm refusing to do that even on my main. I got to 616 on main, 1st alt all above 605-616, 2nd alt, 3rd alt and just move on another alt. The games just kinda like corruption in BFA, the runed/guilded farm for alts is punishing and so I play less wow and pug less HC raid as tank/M+ as a Tank.
To this day I do not even understand WHY they changed that upgrade system to begin with. The Crest system is so much worse than the Valor system we had before, instead of ONE currency, we now have FIVE currencies we need to upgrade depending on the itemlevel. This is so ridiculous.
Just have bring back Valor or something comparable and make any item that drops upgradable to max ilvl, who gives a damn if Casual McCasualface gets a full set of 636 by only grinding low keys or open world content until their face falls off.
That is actually one of the biggest problems nobody talks about how useless rewards are for the time you spend not that much the difficulty. Like i can do 10s weekly on like 5 alts, but most of my chars are like 611 to 618 at most as i cba spamming 60 8s or 7s to upgrade my stuff its beyond stupid. And then you get a single myth track item not only doing 10s is pain in the ass, but you still get a shitty single item in vault. Considering that killing 4 bosses gives you like 2x on average 1 from vault on top of 2x vault choices, which takes like 3 times less than pugging 4x 10s even.
Even if you see that discount that you may never see like 25% as you need full myth track or w/e it was is nothing considering the time you need to spend even on your main you pretty much need to get like 75% on everything you have upgraded on your main to make sense to ever have alts unless you are playing 10h a day.
I'm a healer so my que times are instant or at most like 5-10 mins on sub 615 chars, but i can't imagine a dps waiting for 1h-2h for that type of rewards on top going through the process of having max hero track to even get invited to anything. In df crests system made some sense as hero track was a bit longer and you could push your hero track items to fairly decent ilvl relative to myth track considering blizzard mindset is making gear aspirational reward, but now it just makes no sense as max hero track is complete garbage in comparison to max myth track as its whole 13 ilvls im not even bothering upgrading my hero track as i never step into 7s just waiting for my weekly vault to even get any progression. Whole crests system is just arbitary waste of time now like what artifact power was back in legion.
The alt catch up is the best it ever was... untill you get to Myth track. I dont know how to fix that, but its insane I can lvl up an alt, and gear IT up to ~615 on the same day (I LITTERALY did something like that, twice this season, and with very minor help of guildies), but then when you need to catch up on Myth items its INSANE slog, and Hero track is compleatly useless at high end beacuse of the 13ilvl gap
M plus this Season is so Great when you Are in a good group of Friends on Discord Spamming keys. Pugs on the other Hand Are just miserable. Especilly on the beginning of the Season they were so hard to pug i cant Imagine how many people just stopped playing m plus After week 1 or 2
I am one of those and I know a few that did the same. And I am a Healer / Tank main, playing Resto Druid/Shaman/PresEvoker as well as ProtPala, so I arguably have it a lot easier than the common pug guy to find groups and when people inevitably behave like idiots, its not that much of a loss to leave and go again.
But after a while, the combination of m+ being meh this season with the "pugs being pugs" was so unbearable that I just stopped playing altogether.
@ Yes i feel you. Every Single Complain everyone has with m plus would be waaaaay less if the Dungeons were tuned in the beginning Like they Are now. But oh well its a small Indie Company.
Why do you capitalize letters like that wtf is going on lol
@@_AugieHe is Just Completely insane. don't Question it.
@@_Augie i am on a german mobile phone and it does it automatically because it cant comprehend english. I am to lazy to Change any Setting or do it Right so it will stay Like this forever
Biggest problem with m+ pugging is actually getting into groups - wiping in raid, you can just go again for hours, you at least get to play the game and feel like your time commitment had some meaning. Wiping in m+ and depleting or everyone leaves, I'm back to queuing for 15-30 minutes. If I want to spend my time playing games, I should be able to actually play the game.
really though i maybe spend 10 hours a week this season jsut running keys that ge halfway done and somone leaves and that tiems is fully wasted, no gear no learning or prog no crests nothing, at that point its already nearly an hour loss sence geoups rarly fill fast even with a great team these days. becomes too time wasty
Yeah, and when you're a dps and people just quit mid key it's very demoralizing because you probably spent half an hour to get into it, now you wasted 15 more minutes and still haven't got any rewards.
Shouldn't be any depletion for keys imo. Manually lowering it is perfectly fine, but having a 10 deplete because of a leaver/dc feels bad. I like that 10s and portals require either great personal responsibility, or a good group. In season 4 of DF, we had a friend come back to the game since season one. We had 2 people carry him in one day to get all his portals with 2 other pugs and it was a pushover
RuneScape on 2nd monitor goes hard to pass queue time
The single MOST IMPORTANT problem for m+ is this: healing and tanking is not fun and too toxic and not enough people playing it. If they could fix this and 10x/20x the healing/tank population literally 90% of the issues would resolve itself. I dont understand how no one at Blizzard sees it.
Pvper and m+er here, in pvp especially solo shuffle you get extra currency for playing which I think is cool idea, also think having healer / tank specific awards or achievements would be cool, like if you tank all 8s and then 12s you get a title or a tabard or an illusion or something
I'm a tank and I personally don't tank M+ anymore. I don't have a dedicated group and pugging is pure stress, nothing fun about it. Feels like a job where everyone hates you.
totally agree
ima a tank..3k io. its been pure frustration for at least 4 weeks now. ill probably just unsub.
Trash take.. Just remove Key depletion and instead randomize it to a different key without reducing it by 1. That would actually fix everything.
Warrior for sure should have blood lust. It perfectly fits the class fantasy and no tank has lust, so that would fix some problems for sure.
3 of the tanks have a brez... then you have warrior, dh, and monk. DH is by design usually at least in a healthy spot. Monks and warriors could use some love as they are just boom or bust
To extend on this, for party buffs, warrior has a flat what? 3% damage boost? Pali has a flat 3% damage reduction. Druid a 3% vers boost, so 3% more damage dealt, 1.5% less damage taken. DH/monk 5% magic/physical damage buff respectively. DK has grips and AMZ (DK is also kinda screwed with how situational their tools are and they don't actually have a party buff)
Good party buffs: pali and druid
Alright: warrior
Super situational: monk, dh, dk
Make Megasett permanent poddy member and nobody gets hurt
megasett and growl as permanent members would be fire content
@@RRckr910 just incase you genuinely dont know Growl has his own Podcast now called The Bench not quite as good as poddyc imo but still a chill vibe
@@RRckr910 Growl is actually part of another podcast and has an exclusivity contract between the two. Also they hate each other. Fuck The Bench. (the bench episode is next in my watch queue)
@@ThePolarpopCool opinion bro
Growl going to Poddy C would kill Bench though. Tettles and Squishei are cool, but Growl is easily the best part of it.
Tettles is rough on the overall vibe for sure.@@Frawt
Its hilarious every single time max tries to relate to an average player. I dont think its possible to be more out of touch with the game than being max
He admits it at least
Growl & Tettles give him a run for his money.
Ya he's in like the top 2-3% of the game "I've been playing M+ pretty casually" lmfao
Watch the bench, those guys take being out of touch to a professional level😂
@@evananthony4506 Was going to say this, I used to be a big growl fan but he's moved further and further away from being relevant to how I experience the game, despite even playing the same class. Hope they find their way back, they're good blokes.
Megasett is dope. Much love.
Tanking when you can die as easy as you can right now is just pure stress. Imagine you have not a lot of xp doing the dungeons, you have to worry about what to pull, if you die everyone dies and the key is bricked, you have to know what all the mobs do, you do like 60% of a dps in damage. Add it all up and youre just trying not to fuck up for 30 minutes and if you do its instantly over. you dont feel good you are just avoiding feeling bad
This week a few guild members asked me if i could tank a dungeon for them (2500-2700io) because no tank was online in the guild. I'm a 2475io ret pally main that has never tanked a key this expansion. 3chested an 8 Ara-Kara and then went into Grim Batol 10... I got my butt blasted so hard i don't want to tank again.. It feels awful to wipe the group.
a tank death being a wipe and a brock is a great argment for why the 15sec death effix is ass. im sorry a tank making enough of a mistake to die once should not be enough to kill a key. no bodys gonna want to tank with that risk there even if they know deep downtheyd be good on it
That's how I feel about healing. Especially in pugs where people don't interrupt or stun hard hitting spells. On top of worrying about all the regular mechanics of the fights, I've gotta make sure everybody is healed and prioritize who to heal first AND contribute to dmg, all for the same rewards as the dps lol
It would feel more rewarding if you were actually rewarded for the amount of effort you put in.
1:25:26 I disagree with max. Ive came late to this season and ive been running 8 and 10 pugs to catch back up. Nearly everyone slams out their aoe stops in the first 5 seconds of the pull in nearly every dungeon. Overlapping interrupts is what is causing problems, not the lack of using them.
Community: Remove fort and tyrann
Blizz: Have both at once and it will be like you don’t have them at all!
It's true!
this
1:04:30 it's because of the timer. If you have a class 5% better that makes beating the m+ timer more likely, you take it. You don't have that level of pressure in raid. Sure you have enrage timers, but you have 19 other people that may dilute how average you are.
Yeah but even if u invite the best specs they still are shit and leave after 5 deaths
I stopped tanking M+ because I don't have a dedicated group. Pugging is pure stress and anxiety, absolutely no joy or fun.
I feel that completely. I've been lucky to have 1-3 players I have almost always done keys with since I started M+ and tanking in BFA so I always have communication and synergy in my keys. But trying to gear alts now that that my friends are basically raid logging mythic has felt awful. The synergy is bad and highly variable. The #1 thing I would recommend is if you want to have more success next season, assuming nothing with this current problem changes, is to pug and find a healer to push with that has a similar schedule. Having a consistent healer that you can comm with is really valuable and will smooth out a lot of pugs, and then you two can try and find a dps in your pugs as you play together. I think finding a guild with players around your skill level would be a good option especially if you can join the guild of a healer you find to play with in pugs. And if you're wondering how to invite the healers to play just send the a whisper about your intentions and interest to play more with them and send a friend request. Best of luck.
Same same. DPS and healer not interrupting very well, then DPS got one shot few times in CoT, then just left right away. Wth?
I think having scrolls and drums back to BFA levels would alleviate problems with comps. Blizz always said that taking those away would make classes more unique but all is does is pigeon hole you into having to bring certain specs.
I swear the entire reason scrolls and drums were nerfed was because of one singular season MDI in BFA had 3 hunter comp.
Health needs to scale faster than damage with key level. The timer should always become a problem before survivability. Maximizing your classes tools to output the most damage or move as quickly as possible and chain pull packs together is fun. Desperately trying to survive every single pull in a high key by requiring a strong defensive or external to not get oneshot or spending half of your mental load trying to kick all 25 casts going off in a caster pack just isnt enjoyable gameplay to a lot of people. Make the timer matter before incoming damage matters and M+ becomes a significantly more fun experience overnight.
I was a main shadow priest for the whole expansion, I queued up for 12+ keys for more than 1000 times, 1 inv and we failled that one, than I decided to switch disc, now I get almost instant invite, and I went from 2750 to 3000 in 3 days.
Its basically making the divide between raiders and M+ players even larger. And the time committment to mythic raid AND push high keys is getting insane.
It's almost impossible to do both on the same character, unless you get stupidly lucky and your raider spec happens to be meta in M+.
If you are a healer who raids as anything other than Resto Shaman or Disc Priest atm, you need to gear and maintain a 2nd character for M+.
@@DanH465tbf there are resto druids and mw monks in title range atm. but yes you're better off on a disc or rsham
Fellowship! Played that alpha for like 30 hours, was an absolute blast. Looking forward to the next one for sure.
What did you like about it?
@@BigBombaclot Unlike most mmos and very much like wow the combat felt really responsive for tab targetting especially.
I think an under talked about issue with low keys (8s, etc) is that the players aren't entirely clueless, so they watch content - and then attempt to mirror those pulls, well above their skill level and honestly WELL above what is needed to even time that key. It makes the 8 feel much harder then it actually is for a lower end player.
The sad truth of this season: Even before the "nerf" to Challenger's Peril, if you just single pulled every pack the entire dungeon, you would likely time the dungeon. But people are so monkeybrain big number that they felt the need to do the big pulls anyways.
@@jacobtafoya2462 100 percent, I actually think that was the catalyst for a lot of the interrupt changes: it prevented huge pulls.
But what could be done to combat that? Not have streamers show their routes? We already have a very "press W" kind of way in dungeons at the moment, probably more so than ever before at some point it becomes the player responsibility to not try and be the next Gobbo, Quazzi, Dorki or whoever they're watching
We can't even say "oh streamers need to put out a video that shows why you do this skip, or why not to pull this mob" as we have the extremely detailed videos from Quazzi that go through basically what each mob does in each M+ dungeon down to a pull by pull basis at some points
For many players(myself included), they would not care if they timed a key if it meant having to pull 1 pack at the time :) especially as a tank player, that is boring af
@@kvorg Because you're big dumb
Great convo. Dorki really learning into the game-made-for-the-0.1% vibes on this one 😅
There is a pretty nasty overlap with the current affix that spawns the extra add. If you are doing the pull with one of the damage reduction beetles in Ara Kara. The affix mob also gets that 50% damage reduction. So you are in a scenario where you either let the affix mob stack up its damage reduction on the mobs, while you are killing the beetle, or you kill the affix add while its taking half damage.
Had a Stonevault where orbs spawned during the big cube pull on the 3d boss. It was a wipe.
Take megasetts talk on healer power, then imagine being a resto druid watching your rejuvs tick for 200k on that 10M HP tank
They really need to make some catchup system for crests
You are missing obvious point that ile affixes never happend during Boss fights. It xalatath affixes also happend only during trash they would be soo much more accepted by players.
Also you all discuss +10 and higher from mythic raider perspective so 630+ people. Find someone WHO does +9 pugs in like 619 itlv and then they will tell you all the horrors of current season
*old not ile
@@kamuimac old affixes did happen during boss fights tho lol
ok of the non-seasonsls, the ones that didn't affect bosses (unless you pulled trash onto them): Sanguine, Raging, Teeming, Bursting, Spiteful, Inspiring, Bolstering
ones that did: Grievous, Quaking, Entangling, Afflicted, Incorporeal, Overflowing (lol), Storming, Necrotic, Explosive, Volcanic, Skittish (admittedly the last few on this list tended to only be problems on boss fights with adds)
THEY FIX INVISIBLE PUDDLES 20MIN AFTER PODCAST DROP ????? CRAZY
BUFF MAGE TELL EM
I can’t believe a 5 year old bug got fixed after the upload
Insane timing tbh
I agree, buff Mages! and can we get some warrior nerfs too? thx. why? just because.
@@D2Mephisto mage got nerfed 3 times in a row and people still bitchin, crazy
> Main character of wow
> Literally included in every patch note
> CEO has a personal pager that let's them know when mage is not the main character
> Mages still complain.
Reroll you dork. You don't deserve mage.
Edit: to be slightly less cynical, Mages are absolutely overflowing with utlity and unique effects. I don't care if you're also not top damage on top of that. The vast majority of Mages aren't even tapping into the endless power and potential a mage has because it's actually a difficult class. If you can't handle it reroll.
@SmugHomura haha tilted kiddo spotted
95% of the problems with affixes is when they spawn during bosses
@@doubleshine I think it would be interesting if they were % based, kinda like prideful. Maybe every 10-15% they spawn? So it’s controllable, to a degree. That can also make for interesting routing. Could also lead to degenerate routing lol. Could also maybe have them tied to certain mob packs? Idk, I feel like there are several ways they could do it that would avoid the atrocious overlaps on boss fights.
It isn't fun to battle against the environment (Affixes) when compared to real enemies/bosses. It's the absolute opposite of fun game design. Megg summed it up well.
I do agree.
Thanks!
Why do these guys think that lower key players want affixes when higher key players don't want them. Affixes suck for everyone!
well the idea is that in high keys every cast etc. is scary. so adding affixes on top becomes a lot to deal with. while in lower keys nothing really matters all that much so theres more room to deal with it.
@@OMFGcataFAN1 You are right, but isn't this the reason for doing high keys? What is the deal for doing high keys and then saying: "Oh its so hard, we don'T want to have affixes to make it easier".
In my opinion it doesn't matter if there is affixes on high keys, because it is the same for everybody. Means if you add the affixes and it gets harder then the doable keylevel goes down. Means people might push 15s instead of 18s and 19s. But they will still be the best of the best, only the number of the stone is lower. Whats the deal about this?
Additionally I like the idea of saying: "I am a +15 pusher and love it do not have affixes, but yes they are great and I love that people that are struggling to do a 7 get punished by affixes do make it even harder to time it". I totaly can rlete to that.
@@OMFGcataFAN1 Yeah but the mobs already have mechanics. There doesn't need to be extra mechanics. It's just a failed design and blizzards ego is too big to admit the affixes suck.
The problem with affixes is they aren't designed for the dungeons, so all that happens is they create random BS situations. No reason for them to exist.
@@Xerus35agreed would love to see them go and be able to focus 100% on mechs alone
@@Xerus35 blizzard said they want affixes or inconsistencies(which rotating affixes provide) in your average m+ experience, so that the random guy that runs +5s with his friends or w/e always has new challenges etc.
i think the same reason is why a keystone exists(force them to run different dungeons), so your average joe doesnt burn out, which is def important for a game's health
"overdesigning" feels like the core issue with all things wow at the moment. There's just such a complex web of abilities at this point, it becomes very difficult to properly balance it all and still make everything rewarding. I do think that simplifying can be a bit better.
Maybe the time penalty per death should scale progressively?! So the first 5 deaths cost you 5s/death, then 6-10 cost 10s/death, and so on.
This would make it less punishing to start pulls aggressively and fail once or twice, but still prevent constant corpse-running, by incentivising you to pull smaller if you overextend . Also, you could have routes with planned deaths, but those would make subsequent unplanned deaths more costly, balancing it out a bit.
I think that the challenge of it is fine for me personally with a group of friends. unless you’re looking to do some lax pug keys where you just wanna chill which is what I think the majority wants back.
I think that the best way to fix the problem of only the best "specs" get brought. beside Blizz being better and tuning specs is Get rid of key depletion or make it so that a key needs to be failed 3 times to deplete. Or get rid of key depletion below 10 or 12 or some level. M+ players will always riot if you suggest getting rid of the timer so keep it but tweak depletion.
That way overall the community as a whole will be less worried to take an "off meta" spec because at worse you don't time but you still get most of what you need you just don't move up. Also this fixes lower keys for the more casual players and more folks play M+
Then for the folks that really love high keys they can make their uber meta comps and push as needed.
One of the best healers in the game - Meg - says @ 44:15 "I don't necessarily like healing .. "
1. She doesn't PUG !!
2. She plays with her groups and some of the other best players in the game
If she doesn't really like healing .. whats that say about PUG healers with PUG groups ?
Very telling. There are fundamental basic problems with the game design of M+ ......
Dorki - Making Tanks and Healers way more powerful - good for the masses - bad for the 'elite' - would be good for more people - would get more subs - but the try hards would complain - would it make the game more fun ? Hell fkin yea it would .. make wow make me go WOW !!
What I'd like to see in m+ would be
1) Either just had all buffs applied to us at the start of a key like old challenge mode OR the scrolls from MoP Remix where it was possible to gain ALL raid buffs with them.
2) Kicks work something like dispels where if they fail then they go on cd for ~3 secs instead of completely wasted.
I think Dorki's on the right track about feedback from failing mechanics - people don't like doing less damage, but even that's a thing that people without damage meters or who don't have eyes on their debuff bars can easily miss. The real strong feedback is effects that limit your ability to play in some way: stuns, silences, roots, slower move/cast speed, etc. These are more impactful on higher keys, where you're more likely to get killed by other mechanics and the lost damage means more on tighter timers, but they're noticeable at any level. Even something not too punishing like a 1-second daze gets players' attention in a way that raw damage often doesn't. They also have the advantage of not being as much of a big "you are bad damage" badge in the way that got people raging at Megasett's suggestion of damage down debuffs.
Drops the crest upgrade, just use stones to upgrade the gear. The higher ilvl the gear the more valid stones needed and the higher the key the more stones you get. This allows the sweaty people to gear very quickly to push high keys but also lets everyone continue to work towards upgrades regardless of the skill / key lvl they can complete. Means as the season goes on you can slowly increase your key level, a lot of us get ksm / ksh near the end of the season because of help from ilvl. Now we’re stuck around 610-619 and get bored.
For how much shit people gave Brackenhide, it had some of the best design aspects I've seen in a dungeon. I remember those Warmonger Gnolls had bladestorm channel which was an enrage, so as a hunter I could negate that mechanic. However if it went off it also had the counterplay of melee just having to move out of range. Similarly you had the assasins which you could reveal with flare, but if you didn't the tank could also just deal with the initial boosted hit by using a defensive. There was also a mob that would shadowstep behind you and cast a very quick poison. As a hunter you could feign death it to cancel the cast, but also if it hit you someone else could dispel the poison. Having mechanics like this that have mutliple solutions need to be in every dungeon.
Wayyyy to many mechanics in the TWW dungeons have only 1 answer which is what is upsetting people and cementing certain specs in the meta no matter their tuning. Things like the curse healing absorb need to be dispelled when the player uses a defensive for example. Or atleast the value of the absorb should get halved. This way you still have a way around it even if you don't have a curse dispel. I could go on forever about how to give every mechanic an extra way to solve it.
I AM a lore person, and it IS possible to give everyone Lust and a rez.
Warrior: "Fervor" "As a warrior you dig deep in your soul and find the power to roar, and inspire your Party/Raid members to attack faster for XX amount of time."
Warrior: "Eleventh-hour." "In dire times you dig deep and roar, Threatening the Kyrian to not take this soul just yet." *Battle Rez*
Warrior: "Med-Kit." A good warrior knows how to fight, and when to heal. Using your Medicine Kit, you are able to remove *insert debufs here* *Dispel*
Paladin: "Righteousness" "You call upon the light to channel through you, and through your Zeal and Righteousness you inspire your party/Raid members to to attack faster for XX amount of time." *Lust/hero*
Monk: "Shadow Pan's Might." "You like the guardians of the wall know that at certain times you must give your all and then some to fight on. Your cry Inspires your Party/Raid Members to attack faster for XX Amount of time." *Lust/hero*
Priest: "Power Word: Bless" "As an avatar of the Light you call upon its Grace, and bless your Party/Raid Members to attack faster for XX Amount of time." *Lust/hero*
Priest: "Shadow Word: Censure" "You lash out at your target with a shadow word freezing their throat interrupting their ability to cast a spell, locking them out of that spell for XX amount of time." *Interrupt*
Priest: "Resurgence" "Favored by the light, you pass its blessing on to a fallen Party/Raid member returning them to life." *Battle Rez.*
It really isn't hard to dig even lightly through WoW's lore. Dungeons and Dragons, and any other Fantasy game to fine examples for these things. Making them fit into lore? Just as easy as I displayed here.
Systems is a bad word sometimes, but they could do this and call it Tactics. Tactics is a system through which classes can unlock class specific small group/party abilities allowing them greater flexibility in Party sized content. This way it only works in Dungeons, and in Delves. Doesn't affect PvP, and it doesn't affect Raids. leaving Pvp, and raids as they are now, while opening up comp variety in Delves, and Mplus environments.
Bare minimum, every healer spec should have an interrupt and battle res.
I would argue blanket dispels also, but that's different.
@@blalhoihreuf All Tactics would be meant to do is open up comp diversity in MPlus and Delves. Problem with god comps in Mplus, is one is always going to exist as long as niches need to be filled, and tuning is over tuned.
Tactics won't fix tuning, but it would take "niches" off that table for MPlus. So you need a lust and no one is signing up?
Tactics could handle that.
Need an interrupt on everyone, but your healer is a priest? tactics could handle that.
Imo the ever scaling environment should be the only addition in M+. You do the dungeons in order to reach as high as you can and find your limits, not to play with the carnival minigames games that off-set not only abilities, but plans as well.
Affixes so far are generally 95% only feel bad moments, annoyances.
the solution is obviously solo queue.
if you can actually play the game with any spec you want, then all the other problems are secondary.
It's crazy how good megasetts takes were from the healer perspective. I personally really dislike m+ this season and now im convinced its cuz I choose to be a healer. The overlaps of mechanics with the affix is the worst thing ever, the baseline level of kicks and dispels being so radically different across classes is insane (the whole 10 globals vs 1 discussion), the over-designed dungeons....and the comp restrictions due to baseline class kits all resonate with me.
Well there is a different this season, between choosing to be a healer, and choosing to be a Resto Shaman
@@DanH465 True, also highlighting poor game design
We all love megasett :D
I know it's an old argument, but I feel like the solution to a lot of the m+ problems is just to increase player healthpools massively, even with no other changes.
I've been saying what Megasett was saying, about allowing bufffs for m+ only, since BfA! Like they have the Font of Power, there could be a drop down of what buffs you want (up to 5, one for each party member) as well as who you want to have a bres(s) and lust. It would allow you to build your comps and buffs suitable for what you and your friends want to play. Also (and Im gonna keep saying this until they change it), REMOVE KEY STONES! Use the delve/torghast system!! You complete a 3 and +3 it, you can now do up to 6 for that dungeon. Would get rid of some of the toxicity of people leaving and bricking your key and also allowing you to try people who might be lower geared but had good io last season and might be a good player, but you arent inviting them cause they havent done much in the current season. If they suck or mess up a mechanic, can just zone out and go again. They NEED to do this, imo.
EDIT: Also, max with the interrupts giving you a buff is something I miss (as a warrior). I remember I learned to interrupt because it used to give Fury a damage buff for a short duration after interrupting. I wanted to interrupt everything. I now am really good at kicking because of that carrot on the end of the stick making me/teaching me to want to interrupt. I like that idea for defensives too.
"These affixs add flavor - I'm glad i don't run keys low enough to deal with them" - People who only do 12+'s
It's not even an absorb 21:02 it's just removed by asm amount of healing but doesn't actually absorb that im aware
Im an avid solo m+ grinder. Every season since legion, I've geared multiple healers to "ksm level".
I think adding damage/haste downs to missed defensives and getting hit by avoidable damge would be fantastic to the future health of the game.
There is a massive difference between players doing 4 keys and farming 10 keys. So many lower key players dont push there non damage abilities because they dont need to. They also arent taught that they should. The lower players just think and see through their character. If there health goes down thats the healers job. They are dps and there to do damage.
Is there a reason that the appearance changing item cant also change your racial? You just actually become a panda for an hour? Make the scroll only do appearance but make a potion or something to change racials as well?
I posted on forum a few years ago that tanks should be split into lust/rez, warriors, vengence BrM get lust and Bears, Bdk, pally gets rezzez
This would help so much with comp restrictions, in theory 50% of the time, your tank brings a mandatory utility and then you can fill the other half with the 4 spots.
You almost got there. All tanks get lust and all healers get brez.
1:21:34 I think Dorki and Max fundamentally misunderstand why 'weak' healers are more fun than strong healers. It's not that we and a challenge, it's that we want breathing room to make decisions and have some stratification in potential damage profiles. If healers are strong and can top players quickly, then the only way to threaten players is to do 80% of your health bar with every hit, which means players have to be kept at 100% all the time or they'll die. It's not fun to have people's health bars act like a yo-yo. It's not fun to be 'strong' as a healer because it reduces the amount of nuance and decision making available to you. When healers are weak and can't push up bars in a single global, you also don't need to kill people in a single global.
Exactly, if you have more output then you just go to higher keys that match the increased output. And if in higher keys the dps have to reduce the damage that they take, then that sounds like the most natural problem to have - if you want to beat harder challenges, you have to play better.
Favourite streamer back on the show, hell yeah
Ah yes another episode from the better podcast, also yay meg
Nice one guys and girls. Great talk, keep up the good work. 💜
i preferred the old currency for upgrading, being able to help out with low keys in exchange for getting the valor i needed for upgrades was nice instead of only being able to do 8 and 9 over and over to slowly get the crests i need
the thing that I think gets missed in the "how to engineer the 15 second death penalty" convo is this: the actual time penalty of /wipes/ (or any non-brezzed death) varies by like a factor of 5 because of how inconsistent graveyards are, so like. if we're talking about making a few seconds tweak here or there they can't actually engineer a goal of "1.5 wipes" without fixing the absolutely huge variance
There needs to be some system where if a tank dies, it’s not basically an immediate wipe. It drastically increases the stress on tank where one mess up just full wipes the group. Either some immunity to melee swings after a tank death, or every tank has a unhealable purgatory that is only removed by a BR. Or just always have a cheat death trinket in the loot pool.
52:45
I Think a good example of This was first boss court og stars and Mass dispell, you didnt need Mass dispell at all, many classes Can remove it by themselves or simply just jump. But if you had a priest it was like “oh thats kinda cool i get to save a global or 2 now” by no means was Mass dispell needed there, but it felt kinda good to have a priest on that boss
20:00 i might be wrong, but the heal absorb dosn't actually absorb healing, you can just decide to overheal a target to remove the debuff.
Its not healing absorb, but its not that simple spam healing 2-3 people with 50% shield when there is priory damage going on, if you play with full pugs zero dispel comp you will see what misery it is. There are some healers like disc that can overheal shit tons but not everything is like than and there no way im sending cds just for an affix unless it align with stuff you already need cds for every damage event. On top of that its even worse playing on a boss with prio dispels and that affix like sob.
@@t.g7545 Idk, have personally never had any issues with it, there is no stress to get it off super quick, so healers can take 2-3 dispells and every class with a dispell has the time to dispell themselves and another person.
@@Kechavx As i said the point is how bad it feels in worst case not best or average, if you have like bear and another dispeller or shaman its piss easy unless they are not clicking their buttons.
But i have been in like prot,havoc,rogue,dk group and its complete misery. Often a lot of dps are stupid and they don't even handle two but just dispel themselves and that is without counting the millions other dispel that you have to deal with at same time with the affix. Dispel affixes are just trash unless blizzard make it healable in 2 globals and 1 if you dispel it not like 5.
@@t.g7545 This must be a low key thing, i have never seen the affix go off and i always do atleast 16 10's every week. I literally don't even know what the punishment of it going off is, that is how easy the affix is, compare that to literally any old affix, explosive, teeming, skittish, bolstering, sanguine, all of those were like 10-20 times worse to deal with.
But i guess wow players always have to complain about something.
I think a great example of getting rewarded for using a defensive is something like Touch of Karma, hitting it at the right time and not seeing your health bar move and then putting a DoT on the target for an amount of the damage absorbed is super satisfying. Seeing that spread across other classes either in just raw damage or into a resource like with AMS would be great.
Im 617ilvl unh, takes around 100 signups until i get invited into a +8 even tho ive timed 3 8's and rest on 7. I blast the dung on my unh, do cc, know mechanics but still not getting any inv after 1h i just log off and play another game. Ppl are so gatekeeping, and i absolutely destroy anyone on dps so far, sometimes those 625-630 ppl doing way below my dmg while they are 10+ ilvl higher. This system is just bad and the ppl with 2.3-3k rio are even worse cause they think they are mdi players and only want insane ilvl for the content they doing and most of them fotm groups dont even play decent, they get carried by the tank and healer. System=bad. M+ community=bad.
How i feel as a 616 windwalker :(
You’re 100% right. I think best solution to this is to add a solo queue and remove key downgrades. It’s a fricken game… all content should have a solo queue. Mythic Raids should ONLY drop unique cosmetics. This is how I would remove gatekeeping on ilvl.
Im at 2.9k on main and 2.7k on my tank alts, the main reason i dont invite low Rio is because of key depletion, but im starting not giving a fuck cause even 3k Rio players are dumb most of the keys, they just focus on dps, no kicks, no utility usage. Terribile experience si far, luckily ive an healer friend to queue with or id have quit already
I don't think it's gatekeeping. Sometimes it might be but put up your own key and watch how many DPS sign up. DPS players are a dime a dozen. How do you choose who to invite? Naturally you invite the higher io people, possibly get a lust. You have to choose somehow. Why would they invite you when 20 people who have done 10s signed up? It's also not like unholy is bad, they play it in mdi and it's a really good spec for m+.
The problem always comes down to healer and tank shortage. There are not enough of them to support these hundreds of pug DPS players floating around. They need to make tanking and healing better and more enjoyable.
@@Famedawg how do you determine the matchmaking for solo queue? Do you have to get a certain io to be able to do certain key levels?Do I have to time every dungeon as +3 before I can queue for +4s for example or does each dungeon have its own seperate ladder for progress since some are easier than others? Do you lose io for constantly bricking keys? Would you feel good about losing io? What about when a bad player gets carried to say +10s by their friend and then tries to solo queue and they constantly brick keys for everyone, do they get punished because they are ruining keys for 4 others that deserve to be there. Would you be happy getting stuck in a 30 min dungeon with that player by chance? At least now you can sort of vet people if you want.
Do you seperate solo queue from 5 man party io? And then one of the ladders will naturally be less prestigious, like the difference between solo queue and flex in league of legends for example and gatekeeping will just take a different form.
Then there is also the tank and healer shortage. You are still going to wait 30+ mins for a queue as a DPS because they are a dime a dozen. As long as there isn't enough tanks and healers that will always be an issue.As you can see there are lots of new problems that can arise from a queue system. It has just as much potential to be bad as it does to be good.
Here's a half baked thought on the ~1:27:00 convo; an M+ only mechanic where DPS get a ramping damage buff, capped at lets say 5 stacks for 3% damage each. This buff needs to be protected or else it resets. Defensives on the big hit will protect it, staying out of avoidable damage will protect it. Ramps with in combat time a player stays safe, and can be ramped quicker with use of certain utility like dispels and kicks.
24 seconds ago is crazy
The evolution of "first" just as cringe :)
@@JCurry1123 first
+12 keys have been much more fun than 2~11, purely because it has no active affixes.
Problem with this podcast is TheY Put 4 High End PLAYERS to talk about M+ LOL? Put Some Of 90% ppl that cant time +12 and see what They gona tell you For sure it wont be what Dorki says
Facts 💯
You’re just running into the same issue but at the opposite end of the spectrum. Players who try and can’t time 12s at this point in the season have no valuable insight into why that is the case. “Make it easier” is not a compelling argument.
Mega nailed it. If healers had Aug type abilities. And they deleted augs entirely. Then wow would wow again
See, the problem with making every pull 20 plus mobs would mean certain classes are just absolutely SoL due to target caps.
Remove target caps. Go back to legion bfa m+
@JimSmith-g2d Those were the reasons we got target caps in the first place. They don't want us just pulling everything and killing it in a few seconds.
@@shokura Why though? Mass pulling is fun if you can handle it. Having to be methodical in every single pull is beyond boring. There is a reason dungeons like motherload were fan favorites. Pulling big and hitting big is simply fun.
@@Rafalga84 Because some classes without uncapped AoE will basically get left behind. We know they won't uncap everyone.
@@shokura I know, they hate fun and need to punish players at all cost.
So the most hard-core I will go is Heroic Raid and maybe get the KSH. That being said I after hearing this I thought why not add M+ Tallents like the PVP specific ones.
This way you can buff the M+ community without changing the class right away. You can add for instance a talent that on a successful interrupt the target takes 10% more dmg for 8 seconds or you can have warriors heroic throw also interrupt a cast this way they can interrupt at range too.
To me it seems that this could help a lot. It's extra abilities to help in a smaller group to either buff yourself or your party like the pvp talents work in BGs or Arena.
In my old guild we would help guild members stomp out some low keys, like 2-15 range, until they felt a bit overwhelmed, and that was fine, it was fun. Having so many levels meant everyone could get in on the content and get some loot. Some of the better players would get portals in later expansions and again everyone felt great. This new system is just an unmitigated disaster that puts 95% of the community into the same 6 keys levels which is awful. Not to mention they killed all loot progress which means there is less reason to do leys which means you are burnt out faster. Its so bad that I almost feel they are trying to get rid of m+. My sub ran out today and im done for the expansion unless serious are changes are made.
Oh and thats not even getting into things like the stop changes with AOE interupts, target caps, terrible class balance and them deciding to do class reworks 5 weeks in, costing people hundreds of thousands of gold to recraft. Just a complete clown show.
y, same for me. canceled 2weeks ago and will probably not coming back if they don´t make hard changes to gearing. I can tank a 10 with ilvl 606, but it´s only fun once. And it still sucks if you know you can press the buttons better than most but it will accomplish nothing if you don´t have infinite time to grind gear as a non myth-raider. and you also can´t help your friends much this saison. all in all just way too much punishment for about no reward.
3rd boss of halls is goated, most fun boss to heal I’ve done in any game! More of that please!
Thank god you had megasette for this episode her takes were so good. So down to earth.
I’m not sure why I’ve not heard anyone say this on any podcast but I think if they got rid of the guile affix at 12 be replaced with the 15 sec death timer. This doesn’t punish pug lower keys and makes the dungeons harder for those pushing higher levels and checks the needed skill appropriately. I think this would do tons to fix the frustration.
Most healers should have some kind of acid rain like effect in their tree so they can do damage while healing, for the people that just like healing. Not as good as a proper damage rotation. There was a game called RIFT and for a time there were 4 healer specs. There was the damage to heals like atonement. There was a damage 'beacon' where healing the target did splash damage around them. There was a HoT healer who had a hot that had a proc to add X damage on the target's next attack. There was a shield healer that did damage on a shield being removed by damage. Since every healer could do damage you never felt forced to have the damage to heal healer in your groups.
BEST GUEST RETURNS LETS GOOOOO
Dorki is so out of touch that he thinks M+ is amazing. Worst season ever made if you’re a pug and the difficultly jumps are horrible for most players in general.
Well he is an MDI tank and TGP pusher, its only natural for him to have a difrent take. He is playing completely difrent game then the rest of us.
I've enjoyed m+ and 75% of my experience is in pugs. Ya group finder has been miserable. I get while some don't like it I've enjoyed it on the other hand.
Seems like pug players already forgot about the key level squish and Bolstering, Bursting, Sanguine, Quaking, Grievous, Teeming, Necrotic, Explosive, Raging, Spiteful, Incorporeal, Afflicted, Storming, Volcanic... Sure, the 15 seconds from Peril feels bad, but nothing compared to a bolstering or bursting Everbloom. Or Raging anything. Or Sanguine with archers. Or half the old affixes alone in any dungeon really, and you had 2 of them to deal with at a time. Or any boss with a totem on Tyr week.
I've been doing keys since Legion and actual high keys since last season of SL, went up to +24 in DF S3, +16 after the squish in S4, and I think now is the best it's ever been.
@@VDHmain The fact that they brought in the extra 90 seconds for each dungeon, to ease the pain of 15 seconds for a death, shows that they know they made a mistake but instead of taking it back to 5 seconds, they did a band aid fix and it's not enough for the average pugger
@@kickthunt4239 Sure, but the reason people can't do 12s isn't Peril, it's Guile plus the loss of the buff from the +2 affixes. Depending on the week, you lose 20% crit, haste, vers, or mastery every 90 seconds, which is basically two thirds of a bloodlust.
The jump from 11 to 12 is more like 11 to 14, which is more than most can handle without a ton of prog. Peril feels bad but it just lowers the level of key where a death means a brick.
First, we need to fix all the salty leaver.
Leaving a key, or being off-line for more than 5 minutes after a key has started, while the timer is still going, should give you an account wide deserter debuff, that prevents you from joining any other keys in the next 24 hours.
This should only apply to the first leaver / person going offline, so it can not be used to troll other peoples keys by leaving immediately after it starts to keep the other 4 hostages until the timer runs out.
get rid of key depletion:
common arguments for key depletion:
1) you can just grind the dungeon a 100 times, and then eventually get lucky!
No, this is called learning.
2) it will cause people to kick easily
a) this is already a problem when choosing party members, if people are unknowns or low tier they have to wait forever. without key depletion you can give other classes/specs and lower rated players a chance
b) if you kick someone, you will fail the key and have to start over. this is a huge time sink. people aren't going to be willy nilly kicking people, and if you do, the other play can /ignore you so you won't party with them again, and many people won't do this, they'll try the key.
3). No
1:27:00 I think maybe utilizing silence and disarm could be a way to go. Make it not apply to defensive spells, and basically cause you to not be albe to cast offensive damage spells for 1,5-2 seconds.
Sure it might be very controversial, but it's a start.
yay meg
The most fun ever what when mistweaver could gear haste and blanket heal the entire raid with enveloping mist. You didn’t need to care about the mechanics that much, all you had to do was do your rotation and keep renewing the hots fast enough. Was amazing to be able to keep increase your throughput as the fight progress and the longer you could keep going, the more you healed it was so much fun and that playstyle has never returned again and it makes me sad, second most fun was when you could glimmer the entire raid as an Hpal and just burst everyones HP constantly as long as you could keep crusader strike
Meg is by far my favourite poddy C host that knows what ancient teachings is.
Hey guys, I love the points you brought up. I just have 1 thing I don't agree with: playing a healer is way more fun and satisfactory "for me" than any DPS. There is no feeling like when the party drops to 1 HP, then you pop your cooldowns and heal the shit out of everyone. Also, the adrenaline that comes with the whole fate of the party being on your shoulder is just unmatched for me.
I personally cant understand why they dont bring something like m+ soloq.
when i come from work and wanna push solo pugging, i waste 80-90% of my freetime after work in queue.
every season you see the huge decline past the puggable since nobody can ivnest the time to play up keys and throw it depleto to the public pug..
its long overdue they implement a system that saves time. i can not push keys to 0.1% at all in my circumstance, its just so time consuming, it'd be madness far beyond comprehension. i tried the push multiple times, but i simply cant hang 12-16h per day in queue anymore.. and thats most of the playerbase
World of waiting
The biggest problem with the M+ queue idea is why would healers or tanks bother with it? When I pug as a healer, I tend to be picky with what groups I even apply to and when I do find a group I like I get into it more often than not. Absolutely no reason to bother with a queue where I don't get to pick anything.
@@EmberHext nobody is ready for that discussion. let them have their silly dream of m+ soloq.
@@sinnis4993 The reality is that 80%+ people decline over the first couple of weeks every season. its a pure time waste grinding in 0,1% range without a team, and even for people of lower rating, the time invest is simply not worth it.
why would tank and healer bother? same reason as now.
shorter queue time. fun at playing the role? i mean nothing really changes beides the fact you radnomize your teammates.
@@EmberHextnon meta tanks don’t get invited to good keys either only reason non meta gets invited is desperation
great and important chat this week. love hearing from megasett bc she's lowkey a free thinker pog
GO LOINS!
Consider the option of a dungeon completion bonus, AND an extra time bonus (completion awards crests, and based on time there is crest bonus for time that is not just a binary timed or not timed amount). The extension of this is a leader board for time (like MDI for the masses), and another for completion (same as now): this way speed running becomes a sport on lower keys for all skill levels. In addition I think the barrier to top level gear is too high. The tuning should make top level gear attainable by the average player, because the player power is not even until we are all wearing BIS gear at the top ilvl.
As Dorki said, let us please play the game. There is too much shit happening in the dungeons. I have time to do 1 dungeon after work, maybe two. if Im waiting half a fucking hour to get into a group that makes me just play something else. there were already not enough tanks doing 10s-15s in shadowlands S4, what on earth makes them think making tanking harder is a good idea is beyond me.
agreed. I'm at a level where I can reasonably do this content, but it stopped being about fun and started being about everything being a challenge. Challenges can be fun, but it needs to be more than that-- and to me, the dungeons do not feel like there's much that makes them actually fun due to the difficulty overload (not even numerically, just how the dungeons are designed nowadays with the cc changes, tons of casts every single pack with a bunch of trash mechanics, etc.)
It's made me quit almost entirely tbh, haven't done M+ in a month and finally was able to get a replacement for my raid slot this week after wanting to quit for the past 3 weeks.
I'm happy for everyone having fun with this level of challenge but the difficulty combined with the lengthy gearing process which creates months of all but mandatory chores, plus the time commitment to play this game at a decent level in general is just too much. At least the sweaty gods at the game are enjoying themselves. Hell, casual players seem to be enjoying themselves for the most part too because they gave up on getting gear and don't even want to raid mythic most of the time. For anyone in between this season has seemed pretty grating.
Dude, none of these hosts can comprehend there are people who love this game that cannot dedicate 12 hours of day to it... unfortunately, the devs are delusional as well, and keep trying to get us hooked so hard that we have no other choice than to leave...
In SL dungeons were enjoyable, yet these dudes step all over SL because they couldn't change covenants 5 times a day because they can't understand that it is a game and that you're not supposed to play 20 keys a day or clear raid 3 times a day...
there is literally a timestamp in the video talking about the time commitment being too high
My take for how to fix (or at least improve) grp diversity in m+: in either 10+ or 12+ keys and up lust should be a zone ability when the key starts, and all raid buffs should be active (including monk and DH). I could elaborate but I won't at this time.
As someone who loves the Detroit Lions and PoddyC my worlds collided in the best possible way with Dorki's thumbnail this episode. Also make Megasett a more regular guest. She's the only cool healer main.
As a DPS the new affixes are super fun.
As a healer, I have to play with one hand because the other one is used to have phone in hand for a speed dial for my therapist. You have bullet hell mechanics where everyone is taking like 80% of their hp as damage even when people avoid mechanics and then Xal'atath shows up to tell ''Yo, 50% of your HP bar must now be healed, and its going to be your problem'' while still having to execute the same mechanics.
Just watched the whole video at 6000x speed so I could leave this comment. Podios!
good work, hope you enjoyed :thumbsup:
I love the idea of rewarding doing mechanics correctly. Instead of damage downs I would instead do damage +% for correctly doing mechanics (and maybe also +healing for healers). Combined with a very clear visual/audio effect so that we know when we fail/pass mechanics would be a great way to help the general player base learn!
Sorry guys last comment I swear!
What they really need to do is just prune about 50% of the defensives and 50% of the stops.
I'm not going to say 8's are harder than 12's, but I'm going to go strictly to why guild groups are so much better than pugs. In a guild group, you have thunderstorm, kick, stun, knock, AoE fear, sigils ect all pretty much routinely going off. You have people who are getting hit by those one or two things popping defensives.
Go into a PUG +8? You have 10 different events go off in the span of 5 seconds, you have people being double and triple tapped. Even in linear progression, there's a point where you just die. If it's stopped it does nothing, but if you don't stop it in a +13 or +14 it kills you 2 times over.
What Meg is missing on the "the healer could have just healed through this", that's a common response because people are trained that they can get hit by things and the healer can heal through that one thing, but the game is not great at communicating the healer didn't heal through THIS thing because 3 other things happened and it's why you died.
If they nerfed all the ways to stop mobs, nerf all the defensives and made the healers more reliably able to handle things in the dungeons it would both be more fun, and more consistent. The healers really need to be yelling at the top of their lungs how healing is a cosmetic role 60% of the time in decent groups, 90% of the time in great groups, and is the most miserable experience in the world in bad groups. Most people don't see Blizzard "fixing" the root cause of the problem, they just keep giving people more and more. Everyone is expecting them to fix Holy/Disc Priests not having a kick by them moving Silence to the general tree, when what they need to do is remove kicks from all healers and lower the amount of kicks needed in the dungeons to compensate for it.
I like having defensives, damage rotations are easy to master and so having a defensive rotation is a fun addition. The game is just worse for 4/5 members of the party if they have to rely on a healer to live.
I would argue the game is significantly better.
At least if you're dying in that scenario it's intuitive the healer did something wrong. Right now you can do a +10 of the same keystone 6 different times, survive the shadow bolt 5 times and dead the 6th run because the mage who's not you missed a kick/defensive and had to get a burst heal 2 seconds ago. That is not intuitive or good design that you died because someone else made a mistake, and that caused the resource to be used else where.
What about Mythic+ moving to the Delve system?
To be able to run a +6 you have to at least time a +5. You don't need a key, you just set your level and run in.
+1 +2 etc gives more crests.
Every day, 4 of the dungeons are 'Bountiful' which just increases the crest reward from that dungeon for that day.
we could get rid of dungeon difficulties with the delve system
So many ideas here were absolute trash, i hope blizzard doesnt listen.
Would love to see a +3 crest incentive for no deaths