NOTE: I totally spaced and forgot that the hit rating conversion is different for spells than it is for melee attacks. My example of "poison cap for Rogues" is still illustrative of the point I was trying to make, but the exact numbers are different from what it shows in the video. My bad! EDIT: Another clarification for Titan's Grip specifically - even though you're using two 2h weapons, it still counts as dual-wielding, BUT if you have Heroic Strike perma-queued you don't have to worry about the dual wield penalty (same as it's been since Vanilla - Titan's Grip hasn't changed that)
This is amazing content and we need more like this Worth noting that surv hunters also have Masters Tactician tactician for 10% extra crit Snipers training for 15% extra kill shot crit Explosive shot glyph 4% extra crit (which they shouldnt need to use) So while in some case they will be far from the cap they are hitting significant DR on crit already
Thank you very much for this video. I’ve been wanting to know this info forever. WoWhead had str and haste gems since naxx and I was very confused until now
It's been a while since anything other than the actual BiS lists were updated on the Feral section of wowhead. There's still stuff about bearweaving in there
@@tableslama comprehensive and consolidated rotation guide that includes all the current theory crafting, particularly regarding omen of clarity and delaying spells for it would be tremendously helpful at this point in time. As of my last deep dive, some of it was covered in pins in the druid discord, but most of it is spread out among the log reviews for feral. As a recent respec to feral it makes the experience much more frustrating than it should be, and makes it hard to shake the feeling that some of the info could be incorrect, or unsupported. Even before the omen change, the wowhead rotation guide(s) seemed a bit lacking in info to me. Just as with a lot of classes, 2 target cleave scenarios aren't covered at all, even though it seems like one should exist (eg, dropping shred glyph for rip and rip both targets, or I've heard mention of using OoC for swipe) Likewise, a break down of the current parse meta / theory crafting would be helpful as, again, most of the info seems to be spread around the various parts of the druid discord.
Great video and feral content, thanks for the effort. It appears I'm over the crit soft cap by roughly 5% with dark matter and idol but I'm still seeing agi > str on the sims by a hair. (2.43/2.38). And crit >haste by a bit (1.88/1.62). Not sure if these values are correct, but if so, crit still has better value for a few percent over the soft cap. I've seen a similar thing with arp as it actually has a higher weight than agi on the sim until about 10 rating over. I know this varies highly on proc uptimes but for now it appears I'm better off being ~5% over crit cap then regemming.
Yeah it's not really worth it to gear around the Dark Matter softcap. It's such a giant proc that you can basically treat it as a booster towards your Yellow cap instead of your White cap. You'd end up losing out on too much damage outside the proc if you gear around the DM softcap. I basically ignore the DM softcap when I gear my character (I'm running Runestone/DM)
thanks for explaining the theorycraft. I remember living on this shit in retail wotlk. These days people be living on the tc version of bro science and it's annoying.
What's funny is a lot of the TC today is directly based off of retrieved/recovered EJ TC from back in original Wrath lmao. OG Wrath had theorycrafters that would sit on dummies for hours upon hours to test, Wrath classic theorycrafters sit on sims for hours upon hours to test lol
@@tableslam yeah for real. But nowadays so few people even know this stuff exists. They just regurgitate what's on wowhead or some joardee video without taking time to understand it which is usually just fine, for casuals and even semi-serious, but some people preach it like religion and even fight over it when they don't even know how the hit table works. Drives me nuts! Anyway, thanks for taking the time to make the vid. +10
Im a Frost DK. This had been a great help understanding more about the game. So theres more to hit then the usual get your 8% and ur done. Is there an easy way to know what hit you need at 60% crit, 70% crit and so on.
Theres a spreadsheet linked in the description of the video, if you make an editable copy of it you can plug in your spec and your current hit & expertise and it will tell you your individual crit cap. If your crit is higher than that number, just subtract the cap from that number and that's how much more hit you need to get back above the crit cap. Keep in mind though thats just for white damage, and a lot more of frost damage is non-white crittable damage, so it may not be an increase in average damage to juggle that cap depending on how far from it you are. Your chance to be dodged also plays into it, so if you aren't dodge capped yet that's another potential avenue to pursue to raise your crit cap. I could probably add another table to the calculator tab that will show the minimum amount of hit rating you'll need to keep your crit cap at specific thresholds, but again it may not sim as a damage increase to adhere to those thresholds
Great overview! Learnt a lot. Only thing I'm a little dubious on is worrying over softcap for double trinkets which have such drastically different uptimes and ICDs (eg. DBW + DC for Feral). Although bearing these calcs in mind, it might warrant putting one of the two on CD before the fight.
By the time we have access to DBW it'll be impossible to stay below the white crit softcap as a Feral anyway. Like I showed in the video I'm not even close to full phase 3 BiS right now in my current gear and I'm already over every single double trinket softcap. So it's pointless for Ferals to worry about any of the listed double trinket softcaps because we're either already above them, or we will be above them by the time we have access to the items, with no possible way to stay below them
@@biggriz2690 It's the opposite, actually. Trinkets are always more powerful, and will always yield higher DPS, when they are procced together. When you're already past the white crit cap passively, there isn't really much of a point in preventing your trinkets from proccing together, unless you will somehow exceed the Yellow cap by a significant margin - which will only be possible with Dark Matter equipped (and by that time we'll have access to 3 or 4 better trinkets than that). With two agi/crit related trinkets, the extra crit will further boost Shred, which is the highest percentage of our overall damage. Also, if you get a Rip on the target before the trinkets drop, it will snapshot your crit at the time of casting and that Rip will maintain that level of crit for its full duration, even after the trinket buffs fade
Great video my dude. Already had a solid grasp on this concept but this was a really straightforward and fantastic resource. Ended up watching the whole thing. Cheers!
All it really does is give Bite and Rip different crit caps than the rest of our Yellows. Rip softcap with T9 4pc is literally just (Yellow softcap - 5), and Bite softcap with T9 4pc is (Yellow softcap - 30) because we already get +25% crit to Bite on bleeding targets from the Rend and Tear talent, so the 4pc brings it up to +30%. The Bite softcap isn't something to gear around, though. Bite is a small enough portion of our damage that it doesn't really make sense to essentially nerf Shred's crit just to keep from overcapping on Bite. The Rip softcap isn't a number we'll be able to reach while we're still wearing T9 so it doesn't really affect much. All in all the T9 4pc doesn't (or at least shouldn't) affect the way we gear at all
@@tableslam my character right now has a 70% chance to crit when fully raid bufed (no trinket or idol procs). i have the t9 set bonus which should make ferocious bite a 100% chance to crit (i always make sure the target is bleeding before i use it). but i see alot of non crit hits from it. do you know why it might not crit every time i use it?
@@rdmqwerty probably either the 1.8% crit suppression from level difference, or you may have some dodge chance remaining if you're not at or above 6.5% expertise (or both)
I'm not sure about casters, the first thing to find out would be if spells are on a 1-roll system or a multi-roll system. If it's on a 1-roll system then it's the same as physical Yellow hits
Spell casters are very simple. Base spell hit chance is 17% reduced by 3% with a boomy/spriest in the raid and further reduced by any hit obtained from talents/draenei racial. There's no wonky stuff like glancing blows for spells. If the spell hits successfully, it'll just do damage within its determined damage range regardless of any extra hit. There's also no real crit cap or anything to take into consideration since trinket procs give spellpower which doesn't increase crit chance. You also won't be able to reach the hard-cap with standard gear either. The only caster that has a soft-cap on crit is boomkin who at around 45% crit iirc loses value on crit due to a multitude of talents + Lunar Eclipse causing Starfire to have 100% crit chance. At the same time, they also lose value on haste at 585 haste rating due to Wrath hitting the GCD cap so it's kind of whatever.
when you showed that hunter log with explosive shot, it says "blocked critical hit". what does that mean in regards to the attack table? how can it roll a block and also a crit at the same time? cant it only roll either a block or a crit?
When a player is attacking a mob, an attack can be a crit and blocked hit simultaneously, but a mob cannot roll that result on a player. It's sorta like how mobs can dodge players' attacks from behind, but players cannot dodge any attacks from behind. Some rules are applied differently to mobs and players
question on feral crit cap with specific trinkets & agi vs strength: for example, dark matter gives roughly ~15% or so crit for 10seconds with a 45sec internal cooldown. it makes sense why you wouldn't want any crit over that during that 10sec but what about the remaining ~35-40sec when dark matter isnt up? would the small crit (and attckpower) from agility over strength and be slightly over the "soft" cap actually be useful for non-trinket procced shreds, rips, etc? trying to decide if i should go ahead and regem strength soon since im a few % over softcrit because i have dark matter. thanks in advance!
Dark Matter is not worth gearing around because of how huge the proc is and how low its uptime is. Something like Idol of Mutilation, however, IS worth gearing around because it's only ~2.8% crit and has effectively 100% uptime. I also have Dark Matter, and as you saw in the video I have not stopped pursuing crit. I pointed out that I'm already above the Dark Matter softcap, but that was really more to illustrate how achievable some of these numbers are in even early P3 gear. It's all about averages. Switching out "extra" crit for more AP might result in higher damage during the Dark Matter proc than if you didn't make that switch, but that extra damage during the proc would not make up for the damage loss outside the proc from losing that "extra" crit, resulting in lower overall average damage. I personally view Dark Matter as a boost to my Yellow crit rather than something to gear around with my White crit. I now instead play around my trinket procs. When I see that Runestone and Dark Matter are about to come off cooldown, I'll pool Energy so that when they proc I can pump out as many Shreds as possible, and those Shreds will be ignoring extra armor because of Runestone as well as having a ~15% higher chance to crit because of Dark Matter.
Hello, why didn't you make a tab for fury warriors in the table? From the video it turns out that for them the essence is the same. Thank you for the video!
Yeah, the essence is the same, but the reason I didn't include Warriors (or DKs or Paladins) is because they all end up with the same softcaps because the only procs that will affect their softcap are Crit Rating procs, whereas the classes I covered in the video have different softcaps due to varying Agility modifiers and Agility-to-crit conversion ratios. I can definitely add a tab for the Strength users though, because you're right, they do also have crit softcaps
Just added a tab for DK/Pally/Warrior combined! There's only 3 trinkets on it right now (Dark Matter & both versions of Deathbringer's Will) but still lol
@@tableslam It looks like now the table does not take into account the 8% hit for fury warriors, but it doesn't matter because the white attack cap is useless and the yellow attack cap is not achievable in this phase - as I understand it.
Hello, i saw few of your streams and really like it! I have few questions about rotation, could u answer pls. 1) FB - when u use berserk - it is the worst way to use FB because of energy om? Its better to use shred always? 2) Trinkets - do u play from your trinket proc? When you see that mjolnir or second trink proc u try to use more shred this moment or TF? 3) When i should use rake? I saw a lot of log and players really dont like use rake often ,instead of 1 more shred - and even when u have 2 t9 pieces. 4) What bis list u use? i found that bis tooltip from wowhead isnt so good - because of sim shows that 4 t4 + gloves or pants from yog is better. Thanks a lot!
Hi, glad you've been enjoying it! I'll do my best - 1) Yeah pretty much. The main reason is the part of Bite where it converts extra energy into bonus damage. That conversion is not very good and ends up making it a pretty energy-inefficient move if you spend too much extra energy on it, especially during Berserk where Bite's base cost is halved on top of it being likely to fully drain your energy when you use it. You can sort of get away with it if you follow it up with a Faerie Fire, but a lot of people don't think it's worth it to even bother. That's why you see some people continue Shredding even at 5 points during Berserk. 2) I personally do play around my trinket procs, but not everyone takes that approach. It's not a huge difference in damage to play around procs, but it makes it more fun and engaging for me to do it, which is why I choose to do it. I have weakauras that track the internal cooldowns of my trinkets, so I can see ahead of time when they will come off cooldown and be able to proc again. This allows me to prepare ahead of time by pooling energy and getting a Savage Roar refresh before the trinkets proc so that when they proc the only thing I need to spend Energy on is direct damage. 3) With 2p T9 Rake is even more energy efficient than it was before - its damage is increased by 33% because it does 4 ticks instead of 3. I just ran a sim in P3 BiS and looked at the "Results" tab to check Rake's damage. Its average damage per cast is higher than Shred (12580 average Rake vs 11220 average Shred), so it's definitely still worth it to use Rake from a damage-per-cast standpoint. Keep in mind that because of the increased duration of Rake from the 2pc, by default you will see players use it 33% less often simply because a longer duration means you don't NEED to cast it as often. So this could be making it look like it has fallen out of favor when it hasn't. All of the top logs I've looked at have very high uptime on the Rake debuff. I personally still use Rake and try to keep as high uptime on it as I can. 4) The wowhead list ended up being the same as the one I came up with - note that there are slight differences between the Horde and Alliance BiS. I'm Horde, so 4pc + Yogg legs are in my set Hope this helps! Thanks!
@tableslam maybe it will be perfect idea for you to make video when you watch some 'bad playing feral" pull and try to find mistakes and help to fix it!
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I’m not sure why simonizes spreadsheet is giving much different results than what you’re saying. I have dark matter and I’m nowhere near white hit cap, I believe I’m like 380 hit rating and my mainhand crit cap is 65%.
It might not be factoring in Totem of Wrath/Heart of the Crusader/Master Poisoner since that's a debuff applied to the target and not extra crit granted to you. If you remove that debuff from consideration, the number in the White column next to Dark Matter (cell D5) would be 65.75%. "Mainhand crit cap" could just apply to specials, which would explain that as 8% hit is all you need for specials.
I notcied on this spread sheet, the current crit cap does not match what's being posted. I feel like I am missing something here, is there a reason this sheet is showing 59.89% with idol/DM and the values we have are different? As far as I am aware currently with idol/DM it should be 70.67% (raid buffed) or 62.87% self buffed. The difference here is about 3%. Is this sheet wrong or is the information being provided via the feral discord wrong?
The Druid discord does not include the 3% from Totem of Wrath / Heart of the Crusader / Master Poisoner. On the "Crit Cap Calc" tab on the left side, uncheck the red box that says "ToW/HotC/MP" and the numbers will match. The further 0.02% discrepancy is from rounding. I use the exact figures and round at the end after all calculations have been made, they always round to the hundredths place. Also this sheet doesn't tell you what your crit will be, it just tells you your crit softcaps based on your hit, expertise, and which idols/trinkets you have. The purpose of the sheet is to be an additional tool to help with simming, it's not supposed to replace the sim. It's just another tool to use to help you build the strongest set you can
Is there any evidence for the crit suppression? Saw some old EJ Forum posts say it was a misunderstanding because of how recount worked Back then. Would be nice where you got your information from because everywhere else I saw the crit Cap explained that for each lvl 1% was suppressed and bosses give an additional 1.8%, both end Up with the same number but would be nice to see If there was some testing done to confirm which theory is true and If crit Cap is even real and not just a myth from back in the day
Yeah, the figures I'm using were pulled from Vulajin's spreadsheet from original wrath. The changelog of his sheet has the crit suppression figures listed there (the sheet is still downloadable after all these years lmao). I had seen the same thing as you - the 1% per level and 1.8% for bosses - so I dug for hours trying to find confirmation either way, which is when I found Vulajin's sheet
Eh, no survival hunter is running 3/3 Hunting Party, a lot that don't need replenishment likely aren't running it all and going for those 6 talents in BM
I just went by the recommended talent build on wowhead. Should be easy enough to add a toggle to the sheet for Hunting Party on/off to show more accurate agility & crit gains based on whether or not you have the talent
For fury warriors, queuing heroic strike and managing swing timers enables us to only need 5% hit. Heroic strike is a yellow hit and the off hand will always hit when heroic strike is in que. does this mechanic affect crit cap?
Nice video! 6:47 - Crit suppression (lvl difference) & 8:40 - Boss crit suppression want to check this also work for spell crit or just for melee/ranged attack crit?
Wouldn't you still care about yellow cap, especially as a feral, because you want your specials to crit not only for damage but for double combo points for more bites? Even classes who don't have extra benefit from crits shouldn't care much about going over white crit cap. I'm sure there's a point where stacking crit past white cap in favor of stats that increase DPS becomes a losing proposition, but I don't think it's right at Crit cap, and especially not if you're relying on procs to get past white cap. If you're under crit cap unless you get a proc, then that's what 66% of the time you're under crit cap? And even when you get the proc you're nowhere near yellow cap? I would think especial for feral that gets double combat points from yellow crits, that you should keep stacking crit until procs get you to yellow cap, or something much closer to it.
That's just going off my feelings based on some fairly high level math intuition,though. It would definitely be worth simming, or busting out some diff eqs.
@@briansanner The white cap is a breakpoint of sorts. It's sort of like how Expertise has separate caps for dodge and parry, and once a tank gets to the dodge cap the value of Expertise drops a bit because now it's only affecting parry instead of affecting both dodge and parry. It's a similar deal with crit - after the white crit cap, the only extra benefit you're getting from crit is to your yellow hits, which causes crit's value to drop a little bit. For some classes, it drops enough that its value ends up being lower than other stats. The white cap is primarily a concern for dual wielders, because their white cap is affected by their white hit. Ferals and Ret Paladins are the only non-dual wield melee (until Shadowmourne causes Unholy DKs to start using 2h instead of dual wielding), so I put a much heavier focus on dual wielders for this video. It's definitely not as big of a deal for Ferals as it is for dual wield melee. We're in a bit of a unique position because we're the only non-dual wield melee that uses Agility as its primary stat, so our crit is naturally going to be a lot higher because we don't have to pursue so much hit gear (but we go for Armor Pen instead). You're right that Ferals generally don't mind our crit being higher than the white crit cap, but it depends on how close our gear actually is to the white crit cap. In ICC levels of gear, it's virtually impossible to stay under the white crit cap, so we kinda stop caring about trying to stay under it. The highest simming ICC set I've found is at 1398 Armor Pen, and 78.67% crit fully raid buffed (81.81% with IoCM fully stacked, 91.8% with IoCM + Agi proc from H DBW), and that's with 3 JC ArP gems, 6 regular ArP gems, 2 strength gems, and 9 (!!!) gems with hit on them, whether they're str/hit, exp/hit, or pure hit. I'm not gemmed for any agility or crit at all and I'm STILL 0.87% over the white crit cap with raid buffs (4.01% over with IoCM fully stacked). I simmed sets with even higher crit than that, but they all simmed lower than the set I described because they all sacrificed Armor Pen for crit. TL;DR: Armor Pen is king and the Oscar-winning lead, crit is the Oscar nominee for best supporting actor
@@tableslamloved the breakdown of the video then the breakdown of the comment too great video man thanks already had a basic for it as a feral but this def pieces it together
@@Elias-kd3qn The highest-simming option I've found so far is Whispering Fanged Skull from Lady Deathwhisper (10H) but it's not a giant upgrade over Death's Choice (only ~25 DPS). If you get super unlucky and never see one it's not gonna be too painful to keep running Death's Choice until Sharpened Twilight Scale
Love this deep dive explaining the fundamentals and testing of game mechanics work.
Definitely hope this gets more views for players in general.
NOTE: I totally spaced and forgot that the hit rating conversion is different for spells than it is for melee attacks. My example of "poison cap for Rogues" is still illustrative of the point I was trying to make, but the exact numbers are different from what it shows in the video. My bad!
EDIT: Another clarification for Titan's Grip specifically - even though you're using two 2h weapons, it still counts as dual-wielding, BUT if you have Heroic Strike perma-queued you don't have to worry about the dual wield penalty (same as it's been since Vanilla - Titan's Grip hasn't changed that)
This is amazing content and we need more like this
Worth noting
that surv hunters also have Masters Tactician tactician for 10% extra crit
Snipers training for 15% extra kill shot crit
Explosive shot glyph 4% extra crit (which they shouldnt need to use)
So while in some case they will be far from the cap they are hitting significant DR on crit already
The extra crit to Kill Shot would be the only thing that needs to be accounted for in a softcap situation, I can certainly add that to the sheet
on my ICC geared survival Hunt I had to stop using agility gems because my crit was almost 100% >:D
great vid, glad youtube recommended this
Another One! Great vid Bud! Love your theory content
Thank you very much for this video. I’ve been wanting to know this info forever. WoWhead had str and haste gems since naxx and I was very confused until now
It's been a while since anything other than the actual BiS lists were updated on the Feral section of wowhead. There's still stuff about bearweaving in there
@@tableslama comprehensive and consolidated rotation guide that includes all the current theory crafting, particularly regarding omen of clarity and delaying spells for it would be tremendously helpful at this point in time. As of my last deep dive, some of it was covered in pins in the druid discord, but most of it is spread out among the log reviews for feral.
As a recent respec to feral it makes the experience much more frustrating than it should be, and makes it hard to shake the feeling that some of the info could be incorrect, or unsupported.
Even before the omen change, the wowhead rotation guide(s) seemed a bit lacking in info to me. Just as with a lot of classes, 2 target cleave scenarios aren't covered at all, even though it seems like one should exist (eg, dropping shred glyph for rip and rip both targets, or I've heard mention of using OoC for swipe)
Likewise, a break down of the current parse meta / theory crafting would be helpful as, again, most of the info seems to be spread around the various parts of the druid discord.
Great video and feral content, thanks for the effort. It appears I'm over the crit soft cap by roughly 5% with dark matter and idol but I'm still seeing agi > str on the sims by a hair. (2.43/2.38). And crit >haste by a bit (1.88/1.62). Not sure if these values are correct, but if so, crit still has better value for a few percent over the soft cap. I've seen a similar thing with arp as it actually has a higher weight than agi on the sim until about 10 rating over. I know this varies highly on proc uptimes but for now it appears I'm better off being ~5% over crit cap then regemming.
Yeah it's not really worth it to gear around the Dark Matter softcap. It's such a giant proc that you can basically treat it as a booster towards your Yellow cap instead of your White cap. You'd end up losing out on too much damage outside the proc if you gear around the DM softcap. I basically ignore the DM softcap when I gear my character (I'm running Runestone/DM)
@@tableslam Makes good sense since it's only a 10sec proc. 5% over for 10sec but ~10% under for like 50sec. Thanks!
thanks for explaining the theorycraft. I remember living on this shit in retail wotlk. These days people be living on the tc version of bro science and it's annoying.
What's funny is a lot of the TC today is directly based off of retrieved/recovered EJ TC from back in original Wrath lmao. OG Wrath had theorycrafters that would sit on dummies for hours upon hours to test, Wrath classic theorycrafters sit on sims for hours upon hours to test lol
@@tableslam yeah for real. But nowadays so few people even know this stuff exists. They just regurgitate what's on wowhead or some joardee video without taking time to understand it which is usually just fine, for casuals and even semi-serious, but some people preach it like religion and even fight over it when they don't even know how the hit table works. Drives me nuts! Anyway, thanks for taking the time to make the vid. +10
This is suuuuper useful, thanks! :D
Im a Frost DK. This had been a great help understanding more about the game. So theres more to hit then the usual get your 8% and ur done. Is there an easy way to know what hit you need at 60% crit, 70% crit and so on.
Theres a spreadsheet linked in the description of the video, if you make an editable copy of it you can plug in your spec and your current hit & expertise and it will tell you your individual crit cap. If your crit is higher than that number, just subtract the cap from that number and that's how much more hit you need to get back above the crit cap. Keep in mind though thats just for white damage, and a lot more of frost damage is non-white crittable damage, so it may not be an increase in average damage to juggle that cap depending on how far from it you are. Your chance to be dodged also plays into it, so if you aren't dodge capped yet that's another potential avenue to pursue to raise your crit cap. I could probably add another table to the calculator tab that will show the minimum amount of hit rating you'll need to keep your crit cap at specific thresholds, but again it may not sim as a damage increase to adhere to those thresholds
Great overview! Learnt a lot. Only thing I'm a little dubious on is worrying over softcap for double trinkets which have such drastically different uptimes and ICDs (eg. DBW + DC for Feral).
Although bearing these calcs in mind, it might warrant putting one of the two on CD before the fight.
By the time we have access to DBW it'll be impossible to stay below the white crit softcap as a Feral anyway. Like I showed in the video I'm not even close to full phase 3 BiS right now in my current gear and I'm already over every single double trinket softcap. So it's pointless for Ferals to worry about any of the listed double trinket softcaps because we're either already above them, or we will be above them by the time we have access to the items, with no possible way to stay below them
@@tableslam doesn't that just reinforce that you should be putting one trinket on CD prepull (assuming double agi/crit related trinks)?
@@biggriz2690 It's the opposite, actually. Trinkets are always more powerful, and will always yield higher DPS, when they are procced together. When you're already past the white crit cap passively, there isn't really much of a point in preventing your trinkets from proccing together, unless you will somehow exceed the Yellow cap by a significant margin - which will only be possible with Dark Matter equipped (and by that time we'll have access to 3 or 4 better trinkets than that). With two agi/crit related trinkets, the extra crit will further boost Shred, which is the highest percentage of our overall damage. Also, if you get a Rip on the target before the trinkets drop, it will snapshot your crit at the time of casting and that Rip will maintain that level of crit for its full duration, even after the trinket buffs fade
Great video my dude. Already had a solid grasp on this concept but this was a really straightforward and fantastic resource. Ended up watching the whole thing. Cheers!
Great video as usual, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for making this, really appreciate the feral vids man
Thank you for making this video. Very helpful and shared with my guildmates :)
I wished you elaborated on the 4 piece set bonus from tier 9 for druids. I am curious how the set bonus effects crit cap.
All it really does is give Bite and Rip different crit caps than the rest of our Yellows. Rip softcap with T9 4pc is literally just (Yellow softcap - 5), and Bite softcap with T9 4pc is (Yellow softcap - 30) because we already get +25% crit to Bite on bleeding targets from the Rend and Tear talent, so the 4pc brings it up to +30%.
The Bite softcap isn't something to gear around, though. Bite is a small enough portion of our damage that it doesn't really make sense to essentially nerf Shred's crit just to keep from overcapping on Bite.
The Rip softcap isn't a number we'll be able to reach while we're still wearing T9 so it doesn't really affect much.
All in all the T9 4pc doesn't (or at least shouldn't) affect the way we gear at all
@@tableslam my character right now has a 70% chance to crit when fully raid bufed (no trinket or idol procs). i have the t9 set bonus which should make ferocious bite a 100% chance to crit (i always make sure the target is bleeding before i use it). but i see alot of non crit hits from it. do you know why it might not crit every time i use it?
@@rdmqwerty probably either the 1.8% crit suppression from level difference, or you may have some dodge chance remaining if you're not at or above 6.5% expertise (or both)
Interesting, thanks
What about spell casters? Since we don’t have white attacks
I'm not sure about casters, the first thing to find out would be if spells are on a 1-roll system or a multi-roll system. If it's on a 1-roll system then it's the same as physical Yellow hits
@@tableslamI’ve been trying to figure it out thanks!
Spell casters are very simple. Base spell hit chance is 17% reduced by 3% with a boomy/spriest in the raid and further reduced by any hit obtained from talents/draenei racial. There's no wonky stuff like glancing blows for spells. If the spell hits successfully, it'll just do damage within its determined damage range regardless of any extra hit. There's also no real crit cap or anything to take into consideration since trinket procs give spellpower which doesn't increase crit chance. You also won't be able to reach the hard-cap with standard gear either.
The only caster that has a soft-cap on crit is boomkin who at around 45% crit iirc loses value on crit due to a multitude of talents + Lunar Eclipse causing Starfire to have 100% crit chance. At the same time, they also lose value on haste at 585 haste rating due to Wrath hitting the GCD cap so it's kind of whatever.
when you showed that hunter log with explosive shot, it says "blocked critical hit". what does that mean in regards to the attack table? how can it roll a block and also a crit at the same time? cant it only roll either a block or a crit?
When a player is attacking a mob, an attack can be a crit and blocked hit simultaneously, but a mob cannot roll that result on a player. It's sorta like how mobs can dodge players' attacks from behind, but players cannot dodge any attacks from behind. Some rules are applied differently to mobs and players
question on feral crit cap with specific trinkets & agi vs strength:
for example, dark matter gives roughly ~15% or so crit for 10seconds with a 45sec internal cooldown.
it makes sense why you wouldn't want any crit over that during that 10sec but what about the remaining ~35-40sec when dark matter isnt up? would the small crit (and attckpower) from agility over strength and be slightly over the "soft" cap actually be useful for non-trinket procced shreds, rips, etc? trying to decide if i should go ahead and regem strength soon since im a few % over softcrit because i have dark matter.
thanks in advance!
Dark Matter is not worth gearing around because of how huge the proc is and how low its uptime is. Something like Idol of Mutilation, however, IS worth gearing around because it's only ~2.8% crit and has effectively 100% uptime. I also have Dark Matter, and as you saw in the video I have not stopped pursuing crit. I pointed out that I'm already above the Dark Matter softcap, but that was really more to illustrate how achievable some of these numbers are in even early P3 gear. It's all about averages. Switching out "extra" crit for more AP might result in higher damage during the Dark Matter proc than if you didn't make that switch, but that extra damage during the proc would not make up for the damage loss outside the proc from losing that "extra" crit, resulting in lower overall average damage.
I personally view Dark Matter as a boost to my Yellow crit rather than something to gear around with my White crit. I now instead play around my trinket procs. When I see that Runestone and Dark Matter are about to come off cooldown, I'll pool Energy so that when they proc I can pump out as many Shreds as possible, and those Shreds will be ignoring extra armor because of Runestone as well as having a ~15% higher chance to crit because of Dark Matter.
Hello, why didn't you make a tab for fury warriors in the table? From the video it turns out that for them the essence is the same. Thank you for the video!
Yeah, the essence is the same, but the reason I didn't include Warriors (or DKs or Paladins) is because they all end up with the same softcaps because the only procs that will affect their softcap are Crit Rating procs, whereas the classes I covered in the video have different softcaps due to varying Agility modifiers and Agility-to-crit conversion ratios. I can definitely add a tab for the Strength users though, because you're right, they do also have crit softcaps
Just added a tab for DK/Pally/Warrior combined! There's only 3 trinkets on it right now (Dark Matter & both versions of Deathbringer's Will) but still lol
@@tableslam Thank you!
@@tableslam It looks like now the table does not take into account the 8% hit for fury warriors, but it doesn't matter because the white attack cap is useless and the yellow attack cap is not achievable in this phase - as I understand it.
@@Mitol01 All the class tabs assume 0% miss chance
Hello, i saw few of your streams and really like it! I have few questions about rotation, could u answer pls.
1) FB - when u use berserk - it is the worst way to use FB because of energy om? Its better to use shred always?
2) Trinkets - do u play from your trinket proc? When you see that mjolnir or second trink proc u try to use more shred this moment or TF?
3) When i should use rake? I saw a lot of log and players really dont like use rake often ,instead of 1 more shred - and even when u have 2 t9 pieces.
4) What bis list u use? i found that bis tooltip from wowhead isnt so good - because of sim shows that 4 t4 + gloves or pants from yog is better.
Thanks a lot!
Hi, glad you've been enjoying it! I'll do my best -
1) Yeah pretty much. The main reason is the part of Bite where it converts extra energy into bonus damage. That conversion is not very good and ends up making it a pretty energy-inefficient move if you spend too much extra energy on it, especially during Berserk where Bite's base cost is halved on top of it being likely to fully drain your energy when you use it. You can sort of get away with it if you follow it up with a Faerie Fire, but a lot of people don't think it's worth it to even bother. That's why you see some people continue Shredding even at 5 points during Berserk.
2) I personally do play around my trinket procs, but not everyone takes that approach. It's not a huge difference in damage to play around procs, but it makes it more fun and engaging for me to do it, which is why I choose to do it. I have weakauras that track the internal cooldowns of my trinkets, so I can see ahead of time when they will come off cooldown and be able to proc again. This allows me to prepare ahead of time by pooling energy and getting a Savage Roar refresh before the trinkets proc so that when they proc the only thing I need to spend Energy on is direct damage.
3) With 2p T9 Rake is even more energy efficient than it was before - its damage is increased by 33% because it does 4 ticks instead of 3. I just ran a sim in P3 BiS and looked at the "Results" tab to check Rake's damage. Its average damage per cast is higher than Shred (12580 average Rake vs 11220 average Shred), so it's definitely still worth it to use Rake from a damage-per-cast standpoint. Keep in mind that because of the increased duration of Rake from the 2pc, by default you will see players use it 33% less often simply because a longer duration means you don't NEED to cast it as often. So this could be making it look like it has fallen out of favor when it hasn't. All of the top logs I've looked at have very high uptime on the Rake debuff. I personally still use Rake and try to keep as high uptime on it as I can.
4) The wowhead list ended up being the same as the one I came up with - note that there are slight differences between the Horde and Alliance BiS. I'm Horde, so 4pc + Yogg legs are in my set
Hope this helps! Thanks!
@@tableslam Thanks a lot for your answers! Really appreciate it!Waiting for your BIS phase 3 list!good luck!
@tableslam maybe it will be perfect idea for you to make video when you watch some 'bad playing feral" pull and try to find mistakes and help to fix it!
Do Fmages have to worry about crit cap?
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I’m not sure why simonizes spreadsheet is giving much different results than what you’re saying. I have dark matter and I’m nowhere near white hit cap, I believe I’m like 380 hit rating and my mainhand crit cap is 65%.
It might not be factoring in Totem of Wrath/Heart of the Crusader/Master Poisoner since that's a debuff applied to the target and not extra crit granted to you. If you remove that debuff from consideration, the number in the White column next to Dark Matter (cell D5) would be 65.75%. "Mainhand crit cap" could just apply to specials, which would explain that as 8% hit is all you need for specials.
I notcied on this spread sheet, the current crit cap does not match what's being posted. I feel like I am missing something here, is there a reason this sheet is showing 59.89% with idol/DM and the values we have are different? As far as I am aware currently with idol/DM it should be 70.67% (raid buffed) or 62.87% self buffed. The difference here is about 3%. Is this sheet wrong or is the information being provided via the feral discord wrong?
The Druid discord does not include the 3% from Totem of Wrath / Heart of the Crusader / Master Poisoner. On the "Crit Cap Calc" tab on the left side, uncheck the red box that says "ToW/HotC/MP" and the numbers will match. The further 0.02% discrepancy is from rounding. I use the exact figures and round at the end after all calculations have been made, they always round to the hundredths place.
Also this sheet doesn't tell you what your crit will be, it just tells you your crit softcaps based on your hit, expertise, and which idols/trinkets you have. The purpose of the sheet is to be an additional tool to help with simming, it's not supposed to replace the sim. It's just another tool to use to help you build the strongest set you can
tha ks table
What about dual wielding 2H's?
Still counts as dual wielding, if you have 2 weapons equipped the dual wield miss penalty is active
Is there any evidence for the crit suppression? Saw some old EJ Forum posts say it was a misunderstanding because of how recount worked Back then.
Would be nice where you got your information from because everywhere else I saw the crit Cap explained that for each lvl 1% was suppressed and bosses give an additional 1.8%, both end Up with the same number but would be nice to see If there was some testing done to confirm which theory is true and If crit Cap is even real and not just a myth from back in the day
Yeah, the figures I'm using were pulled from Vulajin's spreadsheet from original wrath. The changelog of his sheet has the crit suppression figures listed there (the sheet is still downloadable after all these years lmao). I had seen the same thing as you - the 1% per level and 1.8% for bosses - so I dug for hours trying to find confirmation either way, which is when I found Vulajin's sheet
Eh, no survival hunter is running 3/3 Hunting Party, a lot that don't need replenishment likely aren't running it all and going for those 6 talents in BM
I just went by the recommended talent build on wowhead. Should be easy enough to add a toggle to the sheet for Hunting Party on/off to show more accurate agility & crit gains based on whether or not you have the talent
For fury warriors, queuing heroic strike and managing swing timers enables us to only need 5% hit. Heroic strike is a yellow hit and the off hand will always hit when heroic strike is in que. does this mechanic affect crit cap?
5% hit is because of hit talents in the fury tree
@@shoebucket9589 Yeah, Fury Warriors can effectively ignore the White column entirely if you have Heroic Strike perma-queued
hunters can be blocked and resisted bis class
Nice video!
6:47 - Crit suppression (lvl difference) & 8:40 - Boss crit suppression
want to check this also work for spell crit or just for melee/ranged attack crit?
Ranged blocks exist solely for the pvp aspect of the attack table. Otherwise hunters would roll warriors
Did they change this in wotlk? Cause that's definitely false for classic and tbc
@@riccardosarti6108 Nope you can shield block a hunters attack as a warrior in vanilla and tbc
@@evo5543 my point is that you can get blocked in PvE aswell lol
critcap for warri? :D
it's all in the sheet, i made a bunch of huge changes to the sheet to include just about everything, link is in the description
Thanks for the video! This helped out a lot!
Wouldn't you still care about yellow cap, especially as a feral, because you want your specials to crit not only for damage but for double combo points for more bites?
Even classes who don't have extra benefit from crits shouldn't care much about going over white crit cap. I'm sure there's a point where stacking crit past white cap in favor of stats that increase DPS becomes a losing proposition, but I don't think it's right at Crit cap, and especially not if you're relying on procs to get past white cap.
If you're under crit cap unless you get a proc, then that's what 66% of the time you're under crit cap? And even when you get the proc you're nowhere near yellow cap?
I would think especial for feral that gets double combat points from yellow crits, that you should keep stacking crit until procs get you to yellow cap, or something much closer to it.
That's just going off my feelings based on some fairly high level math intuition,though. It would definitely be worth simming, or busting out some diff eqs.
@@briansanner The white cap is a breakpoint of sorts. It's sort of like how Expertise has separate caps for dodge and parry, and once a tank gets to the dodge cap the value of Expertise drops a bit because now it's only affecting parry instead of affecting both dodge and parry. It's a similar deal with crit - after the white crit cap, the only extra benefit you're getting from crit is to your yellow hits, which causes crit's value to drop a little bit. For some classes, it drops enough that its value ends up being lower than other stats.
The white cap is primarily a concern for dual wielders, because their white cap is affected by their white hit. Ferals and Ret Paladins are the only non-dual wield melee (until Shadowmourne causes Unholy DKs to start using 2h instead of dual wielding), so I put a much heavier focus on dual wielders for this video. It's definitely not as big of a deal for Ferals as it is for dual wield melee. We're in a bit of a unique position because we're the only non-dual wield melee that uses Agility as its primary stat, so our crit is naturally going to be a lot higher because we don't have to pursue so much hit gear (but we go for Armor Pen instead).
You're right that Ferals generally don't mind our crit being higher than the white crit cap, but it depends on how close our gear actually is to the white crit cap. In ICC levels of gear, it's virtually impossible to stay under the white crit cap, so we kinda stop caring about trying to stay under it. The highest simming ICC set I've found is at 1398 Armor Pen, and 78.67% crit fully raid buffed (81.81% with IoCM fully stacked, 91.8% with IoCM + Agi proc from H DBW), and that's with 3 JC ArP gems, 6 regular ArP gems, 2 strength gems, and 9 (!!!) gems with hit on them, whether they're str/hit, exp/hit, or pure hit. I'm not gemmed for any agility or crit at all and I'm STILL 0.87% over the white crit cap with raid buffs (4.01% over with IoCM fully stacked).
I simmed sets with even higher crit than that, but they all simmed lower than the set I described because they all sacrificed Armor Pen for crit.
TL;DR: Armor Pen is king and the Oscar-winning lead, crit is the Oscar nominee for best supporting actor
@@tableslamloved the breakdown of the video then the breakdown of the comment too great video man thanks already had a basic for it as a feral but this def pieces it together
Any idea on what the better secondary trinket would be to run instead of running dbw and deaths choice during p4 before ruby sanctum drops ?
@@Elias-kd3qn The highest-simming option I've found so far is Whispering Fanged Skull from Lady Deathwhisper (10H) but it's not a giant upgrade over Death's Choice (only ~25 DPS). If you get super unlucky and never see one it's not gonna be too painful to keep running Death's Choice until Sharpened Twilight Scale
Horn of Winter from DK's
HoW/SoE is not a proc, softcaps are for procs
Dual Wield hit cap attainable already through gear. What u smoking
Solid explanation and good video otherwise