The last church is such a great story, it feels a lot deeper and more personal than many of the 40k novels out there. The foreshadowing to the emperor's fate and the priests warning turning out to be true is the chefs kiss on this story.
@hereticalsock1542 Only because the Emperor was essentially removed from leading the Imperium. Without religion crippling the Imperiums technology, and without the fall of Lorgar and Horus, humanities knowledge and power would have exceeded that which it held during the golden age after 10,000 years of research led by the Emperor. All of the current enemies of mankind would be mere annoyances instead of grave threats. The Eldar might have become allies, as well as the Tau. The Orks would be no more of a threat than they were to the Eldar during their 60 million year rule of the Galaxy. Chaos might no longer even exist. Tyranid hive fleets could be eradicated with easy by even a small Imperium fleet. And the Necrons would have woken up facing a restored Eldar and incredibly advanced and powerful human empire. According to Malcador, the Emperor was forced to put his plans in motion before he was ready. This is what led him to be so rushed and caused so many problems.
It's terrible actually. Literal cringe reddit tier atheism and theism. It's not even good enough for a freshman "Philosophy of Religion" course at a community college.
@@Kwisatz-Chaderach How exactly? I feel like it makes sense to some extent. The Emperor's arguing on the side that knows he's technically wrong but can't give it up because it's necessary in his eyes, right? After all he's trying to remove the possibility for the Chaos Gods to gain more power iirc
Honestly, this is the 1 project I can see why and agree with. Listening to this pretty much means you don't have a reason to buy the book or audiobook so it's kind of taking money out of GW's pockets.
also neat foreshadowing with the priest telling big E to be sure people don't start worshipping him as god *cough* *cough* word bearers *cough* *cough* all of humanity in 40k
@@seddybear heck the priest himself is proof that humanity is already likely to worship him. Big E was SO farsighted that he tended to miss what was in front of him.
That last shot of the clock ticking midnight is so significant, he became what he sought to destroy because he was as filled with self righteousness as the zealots he hunted
The lighting stone is based on an real location. The "Old man of Storr" is a rock formation on the Isle of Skye off the west coast of Scotland. As far as I know this was confirmed by the author Graham McNeil.
@@ryanhampson673 Have you checked out oculus imperia? His history of the the Unification Wars has a lot of background to the remnants of the nations of terra during "old night. Merica, Atlan(tic) wastes,Old Alba(Britain) etc.
@@phalanxwarden4124 Be wary of the guesswork, mistakes and errors on a lot of fan sites and wiki's out there about that time. McNeil did confirm the Skye connection at least.
I like how much you seem to genuinely appreciate the effort put into Warhammer, and not just write it off as "that nerdy table top game with plastic toys".
The Irony here being that the Emperor has literally been face to face with the Chaos gods and knows that the supernatural is as much as reality as everyday reality, and the Empire he goes on to creates is the most extreme example of every criticism he has of religion. The whole Emperor vs faith idea is very interesting and quite nuanced
It's from way back in the old Rouge trader days of games workshop. Specifically, the book book " the lost and the damned" where they layed down the beginnings of the lore.
I see it as the blind faith in religion helps feed chaos. Big E knew that the biggest threat to humanity was chaos and so he tried to keep humanity “in the dark” about the super natural so as to not further power the chaos gods.
this animation never fails to make me emotional, Its so personal and human. both sides of the conversation have merit and both are so respectful to eachother. man this is good writing
The worst irony is that it's faith what holds together the Imperium and it's with faith in their hearths that people fought throught the worst the universe can throw them, people claim that the Imperium is bad, but still produces heroes and paragons that represent the best in humanity and even the lowest of the farmers or the most coward from the soldiers can do amazing things with the faith that the Emperor is protecting them. The worst thing, is that the worst aspects of the Imperium usually represent the kind of people that uses faith on their own benefit
faith wasnt what the emp had a problem with. he wanted for humanity to have faith in its self. not some outside force. if they belive a god will save them then they wont fight as hard. but if they only have themselves to depend on. then humanity will push itself to over come
I think you missed something about the imperium. That it's faith that's causing the imperiums problems. It justifies the most horrendous acts possible, fuels chaos, and causes war.
No the worse thing is that the Emperor wants to extinguish human culture, the ability for people to come together with trust and love, and exchange and express our ideas freely and change the our world without fear or violence.
@@DavidWalter-gz8ue Looks to see the Emperor preserving and exalting art, science, unity and foregetting about mysticism which in this universe is truly dangerous.... Yeah I don't see what you're talking about
@@EleassarNumel you can't have art without the nuance of human experience, culture. True Art can't be maintained by authoritarianism or orthodoxy, which is what the Golden Emperor really represents. Why do you think in oppressive regimes it is the writers and artists that go to jail or are Assisinated first. Read Ai Wei Wei you disagree with me
This has always been a common observation by the community (partly out of fun, mostly by irony, and the rest by frustration) but the Emperor seems to be legitimately unaware that appearing before people as a 13-feet tall golden being radiating light might mislead said people to mistake him for a god. Then he gets annoyed at people for worshipping him, usually do something involving psychic powers, and cause further misunderstandings. I know Logar gets a lot of hate, but you can't deny that Big E was sending a lot of mixed signals.
@@arionofotherworld I'm new to the deep, dark lore of 40K, but I believe there is a theory that the Emperor WAS doing it deliberately. The scattering of the Primarchs, the Horus Heresy, and the Emperor's living entombment upon the Golden Throne are all part of his longer plan to become a god. If the Eldar can orgy a god like Slaanesh into being, why not him?
They stayed until the first rays of sunlight crested the mountains and the rain finally extinguished the last of the flames. The ruins of the last church on Terra smoldered in the chill morning air as the Emperor turned away and said: "Come, we have a galaxy to conquer." As the Emperor and his warriors marched down the hillside, the only sound to be heard was the soft chiming of an old and broken clock. The final lines of the short story: "The Last Church" by Graham McNiel
the insignia on Revelation's ring is an eagle head in profile with a lightning bolt behind it..... often called in that time "the banner of Unity", AKA the Emperor's personal heraldic device.
16:23 Nah he's an immortal human being who's lived for thousands of years, so you can imagine how much knowledge he's accumulated over the thousands of years that he's been around. He was born sometime around 8000 BCE if I remember his lore correctly. Somewhere in modern day Turkey; He's been around since the beginning of the first civilizations.
Random fun fact: Three people have artifacts from Big E's wargear. Guilliman has E's sword. The Lion has a shield that may or may not be the tilt shield. And the biggest chad in the Imperium leader of the glorious bananas, Trajann Valoris has the belt buckle. Valoris doesn't need anything but (I deserve any and all hate for using this term) drip.
Thank you so much for covering this so soon! i didn't think it would be that quick when you responded to my suggestion. So in the original short story he call's himself Revelation, instead of Apocalypsis. Which makes the priest comments make more sense. i'm not sure why they changed it but i imagine it was for copywrite reasons. when he says faith is the causation and justification for so much evil.... and then you think of the current imperium.... a lot of this converstation is interesting from that viewpoint! anywho thanks again. you are awesome!
@@Lazrael32 like you said, maybe copyright reasons. Still, the use of the name Apocalypsis makes perfect sense as Knight Heaven suggested since it means the exact same thing.
@@knightheaven8992It is also synonymous with the end times. The time of Revelation, but colloquially used as the time of ending. It is somewhat fitting that he takes the name of the ending and revelation. Afterall, he came to reveal something and end something else.
I've become addicted to your reactions, and I think that's in part because you're such an enthusiastic yet mellow student of the lore and games in general. It's like I have other TH-camrs I go to in order to learn something new on my own, but then someone like you who is still new is a great way to capture that initial rush of learning and to make sure I really understand what has happened to this point.
Oh man. This story hits so hard. Been a while since I watched it but, most profound thing I remember is how the priest called out his fate in that humanity would look at him as a God.
Got a recommendation for you - it's called 'Guardsman' and is a little live action film by Richard Boylan who made Helsreach. It's only about 4 minutes or so, so will slot in nicely into another vid. Also, the YTer Arbitor Ian has just dropped a video giving an good overview of the current state of the galaxy, seeing as the new edition of the tabletop is sort of now-ish.
I found 40k as a boy in the 90's Raised in a religion less household.... Everything I've ever seen in the world since that time and the stories I internalized as a child made me a True Believer
people will always find a cult of views and morality to make themselves feel good, part of a collective, and justifty anything awful they do. If you point at an enemy and blame them for all of life's problems then anything you do to people who follow that enemy becomes justified.
@@Lazrael32 As someone who lives in the US, the religious factions in our country are embedded in our govt and preventing progress at every turn while literally trying to push for a coup. While non theocratic groups can certainly cause grief, right now in the US an embarrassing amount of our issues are being made significantly worse by the religious aligned fossils in power supported overwhelmingly by our religious populations. When the ultimate authority is god, and god is up to personal interpretation, and they have no fear of death due to the promise of eternal bliss, extremism will rise. It wasnt the atheists who stormed the capital, who rolled back wade vs roe, etc. And to remind you, the US is the most militaristic nation on the planet with the largest stock pile of nuclear weapons. I think its pretty fair to call attention to the religious zealots who literally tried to take leadership by force when an election didnt go their way. No ones saying throw them in camps or restrict their freedoms like they want to do to us, but its really not in our interest to elect these people and give them power, nor should we allow them to take it by force and trivialize it when they attempt to do so.
@@nullakjg767 hey you found your enemy and are blaming them for all your problems! congrats! nothing you said refutes anything i said. I'm not defending religion (I'm an atheist myself) I'm just pointing out that people are awful either way. if they didn't have a "god" to justify their actions they will simply find something else. this is the last time I'm talking about it because it's just gonna be very redundant after this.
@@markfoley3402 As in we have the most destructive capability. The point is if someone with bad intent gains control of this nation, the world is finished. Most religious texts encourage an apocalypse, speciically chrsitanity says thats when jesus will return. Someone might launch nuclear ICBMs because they think thats how you meet jesus. Its just a level of delusion that is really dangerous to allow power. Btw some places ARE trying to round up and imprison people, just look at whats happening in flordia. They are passing legislation that will make that legal based on their personal religious beliefs.
listening to this and leutin's video on the topic months ago made me appreciate just how badly the emperor has his foot in his mouth in the current timeline. the storytelling here is pure excellence.
When you consider that Lorgar is his genetic son. And each son has an aspect of the Emperor. It means the Emperor has within him the human desire for faith and belief no matter how much stake he places on his reason.
The first clue you get at to who the man is is what you hear outside the church. It sounds like heavy machinery and many people approaching, yet only one enters. The name Apocalypsis is another hint and it was sealed for me when he began to question the use of religion. Big E is in the house. I’m fairly new to the 40K universe but I do like how the Emperor wants to convince Uriah to join him rather than immediately require his submission. He’s curious about why people cling to these ideals and wants to experience it first hand for the last time. 40K is such a great tragedy. The emperor being struck down by his favorite son laid the foundation for the creation of the most zealous, violent and fanatical religion mankind has even known. If the emperor ever returns I’m pretty sure his first words will be “WHAT…THE…FUCK?!”
The thing I loved most about this is that it leaves room for the explanation that he really did see God. When he saw the emperor he didn’t see the same being he saw the first time. And when he regains his senses he is able to tell the difference. Which is why he maintains his belief in God after the emperor shows him another way. And he would rather die for God Than live in the darkness he knows is coming. And then as the emperor walks away. The clock chimes, signaling the last great calamity. The coming of the emperor. The beginning of the end of mankind.
"Will only make them desire it more" Maybe this was the plan all along. Becoming a God, powered by 10k years of worship by (at the low end) quadrillions of fanatic devotees.
Hi there, everybody in the warhammer community is always happy to see somebody loving the lore and the universe. But after seeing your reactions then i think we all would like to see what you want to learn more. Its not what we want you to react to, its what you are most curious about that we love so much :). So if you are curious about something, ask and we will find the best thing for you :D
One of the best Literature Pieces that have ever been written. I would show my children this piece and watch them as they struggle to understand it's meaning. It would take years before they would understand, but I have FAITH, that they will.
This is why I still believe The Emperor has a plan. He denied he was a God (while doing god-like things) as a head game to make humanity believe he was one. Only by doing that could he become a god himself and take on the Chaos Gods. He had to be cold, he had to be calculating and when Uriah says, "Denying humanity something will only make them want it more", I think The Emperor took that to heart. Faith has very real effects in the world of 40k and while the Emperor was against religion and superstition, I simply can't believe he didn't realize that he needed the faith of humanity to defeat Chaos. When he faces Horus he specifically tells Horus that "no mortal can ever hope to be more than a puppet to the Chaos Gods", and yet The Emperor consistently maintained he was a mortal. It's a genius head game that has taken 10,000 years to make manifest. I mean, he literally runs such a head game on Uriah himself. Why not the whole of humanity?
It's a genius plan by The Emperor for humanity can't argue that. Yet The Emperor fails to predict the Word bearers and the Horus Heresy? The priest reminds him of human nature, but The Emperor is blindsided. That still confuses me to this day 🤔
Remember atheism is also a "fate" Imagen a galaxy of humans who is fully convinced that the chaos gods do not exist. That thought/felling will echo and amplified in the warp, and annihilate the chaos gods.
@@kirgan1000ironic that the only person that match your description is crazy mad scientist Fabius Bile. Demons feels pain whenever they get close him because he denied their existance
Greetings, one of the recent surge to follow you I imagine but regardless enjoyable videos I look forward to seeing more. Warhammer As for a recommendation that would be Warhammer related, I would like to suggest Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer: ADEPTUS CUSTODES - The Bodyguards of the Emperor of Mankind in Warhammer 40000. Baldermort is quite talented in his story telling, certainly informative and it's a great feel of how rich n powerful the Custodes are written to be. All the best
The sheer hypocrisy of the Emperor to criticize religious extremism while his own Astartes burn planet after planet with the atheist equivalent of religious zealotry, killing anyone who does not agree with the Imperium's edict smh. Stalin approves
Big E’s hubris knows no bounds. His goal was to detach humanity from the chaos Gods. But he was too smart and too far seeing to see right in front of his own feet. He is a literal supernatural being, an actual deity (yes, in the lore collective faith is elevating him to a God of Order). As a pragmatist he knew their faith had to be in the Imperium. This is a great story, but Big E does slightly come of as a petulant redditor. When the priest says “we will turn on each other” after Big E’s aspirations are met he’s absolutely right.
McNeill's and Portoghese works are both phenomenal!! Watched this many times and for IRl, the Emperor speaks bare facts. 1:03:10 - No more games! Chill's every time, as if I was Uriah himself! In a different version of the story the Emperor introduces himself as Revelation instead of Apocalypsis; IDKY the change, not that it makes nay difference, virtually mean one and the same thing! Despite denying his offer and returning in to the Church, I always think that whilst Uriah would burn and or be crushed by the church's collapse, that the Emperor would use his psychic powers to have made it a painless death, as he genuinely respected* (and cared for him, as all of humanity). * He could easily have made him do his bidding should he so have wished! I often wonder, in universe, what and where the Big E is presently is and is doing in 2023; Hya for the answer, just search: Statue God Emperor Trump After all -I- I mean he, can take whatever form he chooses! >XD
I think the general story and forshadowing of The Last Church is brilliant. However it comes across a flaw that is very common. That being that Graham McNeill is an author and not a super genius on philosophy while the Emperor supposedly should be. So the Emperors arguements end up sounding more like those of a reddit atheist than those of someone who did actually study philosophy and argues against religion.
aww you missed the end credits sequence! it's nothing much but it leads to a preview of an event that takes place in the very first horus heresy novel.
what if uriah planted a seed of doubt in the emperor, and thus him on the golden throne is his own personal atonement to the sin of his hubris and, when he ascends to godhood i believe uriah will be his chief cardinal that spreads a new imperial truth born from the ashes of science vs faith and creating a fusion of the two.
This is why probably why the Emperor decided the Thunder Warriors had to go. The way the massacred people trying to surrender. Some of the arguments, well. Lets just say that religion makes it easier to find justification. However, by itself, it is not inherently bad. It is not only about the confort of the dying, it is about purpose. It makes it easier to accept our higher purpose. If only there was a way to curb the stiffling of progress, and harness that purpose into something productove
No he killed them because he made them as a ram shackled way they were great killers but the emperor needed soldiers and the thunder warriors had a bad case of tumors, mental degradation and psychopathic tendencies. They made the world eaters look tame.
This show is an excellent example of how debate is done. I believe that both oversimplfy their cases for thier argumets, because they both miss the point about the history of religion, in that it is a type of thought process that evoles overtime and is a litmus for the development for culture, Art and Science even politics, but they are both right that humanity has paths that they have a choice to make in the interests of 'human progress'
"the difference Uriah, is that i know i'm right" his plans are probably in the hundreds of thousands of years maybe millions whats 10 thousand years of humanity grinding itself to its marrow? i sincerely see the emperor being THAT pragmatic
Uriah's arguments appear weak at first glance, but they are actually true. I always think back to the movie V for Vendetta, when V tortures Evie, what Uriah is saying 8s exactly what V said "Your father said artists use lies to tell the truth. Yes, I created a lie, but because you believed it, you realised something true about yourself." Religion brought out the best in Uriah. I would not call religion a lie, but a metaphysical entity that fosters the true spirit of a person. By creating a central moral authority around a God (or idea of god) nothing mattered beyond following it, which is both powerful and dangerous. You dont need an afterlife or a god to foster your spirit. At its heart, faith is putting trust is things you believe are true, and trust them to see you through the worst. It comes down to a single question. How do you feel like you need to live in order to say you are satisfied before you die?
If you consider the thoughs to religion even though this is but a story. You have to consider this. The Author had to have these thoughts to be able to put them into a story. I do not think that he is the only one. I myself have never read anything to point to these all these things just,. World History. When you think about all of this worlds history combined you should come to the same conclusion. I myself came to this conclusion. Starting back before I was 12 I started seeing this and as I got older I learned more of this worlds history and saw more of the world. By the time I was 24 I had the same conviction As the Imperator In this story. I still hold it as well. I'm 58 now. What happens after death,. no one really knows. Those who make claims that, they do are misleading. I think at death the last thought should be,."Let's see what happens now.".
Fun note, at 1:03:59 the Emperor heals Uriah's injury. Watch the mark over his left eye, likely healed him after the battle years ago as well. Also, at the end, I believe those are two Custodes with the Emperor and not Thunder Warriors.
Those were Thunder Warriors at the end. Custodes would have had way more detailed armor. Plus, at least one of them would have been holding a guardian spear or one of their other specific weapons.
@@galethsaldor8293 the Custodes were way before that. Their first appearance was the beginning of the Unification war. They were certainly there at the end when they ensured the Thunder Warriors were put down at the end of Battle of Mount Ararat (last battle of the Unification war)
@@ShadowGhost0117 I think you're right, their calmness at the end and the fact Custodes are known to always escort the Emperor made me think they were different. The difference in weapon just felt thematic for the story more than anything else as the Custodes I am sure could use just about any weapon known to humanity.
As I have said before, the Emperor insist he is no god, yet take the form of a ten foot tall giant with glowing eyes, echoing voice, and golden armor while casually using super powers. Message a little mixed there, buddy. And while I am no religious man myself, his argument with the priest is hypocritical and constantly trying to strong-arm the argument to his way. His response when asked "What make you different from others?" is literally "Because I know I am right." Like bruh. Yes, he is correct in that in his universe faith indeed empower the supernatural and could lead to horrific beings slaughtering the innocents, yet he refuses to explain and help others solve this problem with rationality like he intent his empire to be. The Emperor condemn priests to be stubborn and unwilling to change, and he is exactly the same on certain issues, believing he know best and can make no mistake.
Emperor is right on almost everything he says, but he misses something important. Knowledge is limited, you cant know everything. Even the most well known fact has a very small chance of being wrong. Like the phrase "sun will rise tomorrow" sun will de eventually, and that sentence will be wrong. All facts are like that, only thing that doesn't change in this universe is the change itself. And belief is the lack of knowledge, it fills the space when we don't know. It makes us accept stuff that we dont know, and helps us against the despair of uncertainty. It helps us to decide, when we dont have enough information to decide. So you cant simply destroy belief, something else will fill that hole eventually. And that is exactly what happened when Emperor got wounded. Yes, religion is bad and we can do without, but it is not that simple to get rid of.
The Last Church is the worst and most disappointing stories in the whole of the Horus heresy. Evidently the writer has never conversed with a Priest of any faith in all his life and this fiction only serves to exercise his unreal world bias. Genuine disappointment after how much it was hyped.
@@sunvandijk9490 Contradictory to what you seem to think, you are not a very observant individual, are you? Considering your main comment which would your kind surely connect with "touching nerve/getting triggered" the irony flew right over your head, didn't it? Or is it at this point simply projecting? Mr "theological discussion" using the famous internet-simpleton "got triggered" tactic. If you want to be so pretentious at least do it better.. Come now master of priests. Enlighten me and prove me your superiority and enormous knowledge of all things theological. Touch all my nerves if you must! Ill try to endure.
They used the stupid name for the emperor in this for some reason. In the books he is called revelation not apocalypsis and i think we can all agree revelation is a better, and less corny, name
The last church is such a great story, it feels a lot deeper and more personal than many of the 40k novels out there. The foreshadowing to the emperor's fate and the priests warning turning out to be true is the chefs kiss on this story.
It's typical for one conman to see another of his sort for what he is.
@hereticalsock1542 Only because the Emperor was essentially removed from leading the Imperium. Without religion crippling the Imperiums technology, and without the fall of Lorgar and Horus, humanities knowledge and power would have exceeded that which it held during the golden age after 10,000 years of research led by the Emperor. All of the current enemies of mankind would be mere annoyances instead of grave threats. The Eldar might have become allies, as well as the Tau. The Orks would be no more of a threat than they were to the Eldar during their 60 million year rule of the Galaxy. Chaos might no longer even exist. Tyranid hive fleets could be eradicated with easy by even a small Imperium fleet. And the Necrons would have woken up facing a restored Eldar and incredibly advanced and powerful human empire. According to Malcador, the Emperor was forced to put his plans in motion before he was ready. This is what led him to be so rushed and caused so many problems.
It's terrible actually. Literal cringe reddit tier atheism and theism. It's not even good enough for a freshman "Philosophy of Religion" course at a community college.
@@Kwisatz-Chaderach How exactly? I feel like it makes sense to some extent. The Emperor's arguing on the side that knows he's technically wrong but can't give it up because it's necessary in his eyes, right? After all he's trying to remove the possibility for the Chaos Gods to gain more power iirc
Of all the mistakes the emperor made, it was his inability to empathize with "powerlessness" and "desperation" that made apparent his Achilles heel.
This was one of the best fan made projects and GW struck it down for a time. I’m glad you get to see it.
Honestly, this is the 1 project I can see why and agree with. Listening to this pretty much means you don't have a reason to buy the book or audiobook so it's kind of taking money out of GW's pockets.
They used the audio book for this, no?
Big E basically walked into this mans church and said god is cringe come join the cool kids bro
also neat foreshadowing with the priest telling big E to be sure people don't start worshipping him as god *cough* *cough* word bearers *cough* *cough* all of humanity in 40k
@@seddybear heck the priest himself is proof that humanity is already likely to worship him. Big E was SO farsighted that he tended to miss what was in front of him.
And the man said back to Big E, "Nah man, tyranny is cringe. I'm goin' out in style." *burns in prayer*
And the old priest’s “no u” echoed through eternity…
he wasn't entirely wrong in universe. he just didn't need to be such a dick about it.
That last shot of the clock ticking midnight is so significant, he became what he sought to destroy because he was as filled with self righteousness as the zealots he hunted
The lighting stone is based on an real location. The "Old man of Storr" is a rock formation on the Isle of Skye off the west coast of Scotland. As far as I know this was confirmed by the author Graham McNeil.
Also a lot of the settings are in Europe, the “Frank” faction was probably referencing France, which was the Frankish tribes back in the day.
@@ryanhampson673
Have you checked out oculus imperia? His history of the the Unification Wars has a lot of background to the remnants of the nations of terra during "old night.
Merica, Atlan(tic) wastes,Old Alba(Britain) etc.
@@phalanxwarden4124 Be wary of the guesswork, mistakes and errors on a lot of fan sites and wiki's out there about that time. McNeil did confirm the Skye connection at least.
@@ryanhampson673 *Franc is the 40k setting of the time, but otherwise exactly right.
@@shawkorrorFranc is also the ancient term for the empire that once united France, Germany and much of Northern Italy.
I like how much you seem to genuinely appreciate the effort put into Warhammer, and not just write it off as "that nerdy table top game with plastic toys".
The Irony here being that the Emperor has literally been face to face with the Chaos gods and knows that the supernatural is as much as reality as everyday reality, and the Empire he goes on to creates is the most extreme example of every criticism he has of religion. The whole Emperor vs faith idea is very interesting and quite nuanced
He understood that giving any kind of worship to beings in the warp for any kind of boon or enlightenment was detrimental to the collective human race
It's from way back in the old Rouge trader days of games workshop. Specifically, the book book " the lost and the damned" where they layed down the beginnings of the lore.
I see it as the blind faith in religion helps feed chaos. Big E knew that the biggest threat to humanity was chaos and so he tried to keep humanity “in the dark” about the super natural so as to not further power the chaos gods.
It is precisely because he knew of chaos that he wanted to erase religion, as belief in the supernatural feeds the ruinous powers.
"Beware your subjects do not begin to see you as a god"
In the business we call this foreshadowing
Shit this was better than most big budget films I've seen in years
this animation never fails to make me emotional, Its so personal and human. both sides of the conversation have merit and both are so respectful to eachother. man this is good writing
The worst irony is that it's faith what holds together the Imperium and it's with faith in their hearths that people fought throught the worst the universe can throw them, people claim that the Imperium is bad, but still produces heroes and paragons that represent the best in humanity and even the lowest of the farmers or the most coward from the soldiers can do amazing things with the faith that the Emperor is protecting them.
The worst thing, is that the worst aspects of the Imperium usually represent the kind of people that uses faith on their own benefit
faith wasnt what the emp had a problem with. he wanted for humanity to have faith in its self. not some outside force. if they belive a god will save them then they wont fight as hard. but if they only have themselves to depend on. then humanity will push itself to over come
I think you missed something about the imperium. That it's faith that's causing the imperiums problems.
It justifies the most horrendous acts possible, fuels chaos, and causes war.
No the worse thing is that the Emperor wants to extinguish human culture, the ability for people to come together with trust and love, and exchange and express our ideas freely and change the our world without fear or violence.
@@DavidWalter-gz8ue Looks to see the Emperor preserving and exalting art, science, unity and foregetting about mysticism which in this universe is truly dangerous....
Yeah I don't see what you're talking about
@@EleassarNumel you can't have art without the nuance of human experience, culture. True Art can't be maintained by authoritarianism or orthodoxy, which is what the Golden Emperor really represents. Why do you think in oppressive regimes it is the writers and artists that go to jail or are Assisinated first. Read Ai Wei Wei you disagree with me
This has always been a common observation by the community (partly out of fun, mostly by irony, and the rest by frustration) but the Emperor seems to be legitimately unaware that appearing before people as a 13-feet tall golden being radiating light might mislead said people to mistake him for a god. Then he gets annoyed at people for worshipping him, usually do something involving psychic powers, and cause further misunderstandings.
I know Logar gets a lot of hate, but you can't deny that Big E was sending a lot of mixed signals.
Yeah kind of felt the Emperor was almost doing it deliberately.
@@arionofotherworld I'm new to the deep, dark lore of 40K, but I believe there is a theory that the Emperor WAS doing it deliberately. The scattering of the Primarchs, the Horus Heresy, and the Emperor's living entombment upon the Golden Throne are all part of his longer plan to become a god. If the Eldar can orgy a god like Slaanesh into being, why not him?
No es tan ilógico, la mente del Emperador funciona LITERALMENTE diferente q la humana debido a que carece de muchas de las emociones de los humanos
Don't forget that the Emperor's Great Crusade killed more people than the religious wars of Old Earth ever did.
Lorgar did nothing wrong
it’s refreshing to see a reaction channel take genuine interest in what they’re watching, keep up the great work💪
Thank you so much!🤍🤍🤍
They stayed until the first rays of sunlight crested the mountains and the rain finally extinguished the last of the flames. The ruins of the last church on Terra smoldered in the chill morning air as the Emperor turned away and said:
"Come, we have a galaxy to conquer."
As the Emperor and his warriors marched down the hillside, the only sound to be heard was the soft chiming of an old and broken clock.
The final lines of the short story:
"The Last Church"
by Graham McNiel
This is one of my favourite warhammer stories
the insignia on Revelation's ring is an eagle head in profile with a lightning bolt behind it..... often called in that time "the banner of Unity", AKA the Emperor's personal heraldic device.
16:23 Nah he's an immortal human being who's lived for thousands of years, so you can imagine how much knowledge he's accumulated over the thousands of years that he's been around. He was born sometime around 8000 BCE if I remember his lore correctly. Somewhere in modern day Turkey; He's been around since the beginning of the first civilizations.
Random fun fact: Three people have artifacts from Big E's wargear. Guilliman has E's sword. The Lion has a shield that may or may not be the tilt shield. And the biggest chad in the Imperium leader of the glorious bananas, Trajann Valoris has the belt buckle. Valoris doesn't need anything but (I deserve any and all hate for using this term) drip.
The Emperor belt buckle? I bet it gives maximum protection against jean stealers.
Wait where did BigE spear went?
@@benedeknagy8497 Lol that's a hell of a joke
Thank you so much for covering this so soon! i didn't think it would be that quick when you responded to my suggestion. So in the original short story he call's himself Revelation, instead of Apocalypsis. Which makes the priest comments make more sense. i'm not sure why they changed it but i imagine it was for copywrite reasons. when he says faith is the causation and justification for so much evil.... and then you think of the current imperium.... a lot of this converstation is interesting from that viewpoint! anywho thanks again. you are awesome!
Well Apocalypsis means revelation, or uncovering in Latin, (apokálupsis in ancient Greek), so it makes perfect sense anyway
@@knightheaven8992 yes but if it means the same thing either way why change it? just an odd change from the original.
@@Lazrael32 like you said, maybe copyright reasons. Still, the use of the name Apocalypsis makes perfect sense as Knight Heaven suggested since it means the exact same thing.
@@vasilishatzikos44 sorry i didn't mean to come off as dismissive to the notion. It's not super important. Just an oddity of the adaptation.
@@knightheaven8992It is also synonymous with the end times. The time of Revelation, but colloquially used as the time of ending.
It is somewhat fitting that he takes the name of the ending and revelation. Afterall, he came to reveal something and end something else.
Ok...ok.. imma watch this one at work monday, cant wait. I love the longer videos..they help work go by fast. Cant wait
Oh mr apocolipsis your own imperium became the very thing you sought to stamp out.
I've become addicted to your reactions, and I think that's in part because you're such an enthusiastic yet mellow student of the lore and games in general. It's like I have other TH-camrs I go to in order to learn something new on my own, but then someone like you who is still new is a great way to capture that initial rush of learning and to make sure I really understand what has happened to this point.
Thank you so much for such a kind comment!🤍 I'm truly happy that you enjoy my videos.🤍
your reaction and understanding of the references earned my subscription.
Oh hell yeah. I love some Terra Unification Wars content seeing as Valdor: Birth of the Imperium was my first 40k novel.
Seems like the perfect book to start with honestly.
Mine was the _Word Bearers_ omnibus.
The Last Church is the most important philosophical point/discussion within the entirety of Warhammer 40k.
IMO it could well be used as an introduction to the study of religion, ethics, and philosophy.
loved this story. Iv been around for 40 years and not once have i had a debate like this.
Oh man. This story hits so hard. Been a while since I watched it but, most profound thing I remember is how the priest called out his fate in that humanity would look at him as a God.
And of course it has a light hearted sequel with the TTS podcast episode.
Chaos corrupted priest -"and you know why, because I know I am right"
Many forget big E is too far beyond humanity to truly understand it to its core.
Bro walked into his own church and told him he'd like to stop being worshipped
Got a recommendation for you - it's called 'Guardsman' and is a little live action film by Richard Boylan who made Helsreach. It's only about 4 minutes or so, so will slot in nicely into another vid. Also, the YTer Arbitor Ian has just dropped a video giving an good overview of the current state of the galaxy, seeing as the new edition of the tabletop is sort of now-ish.
She did Guardsman during the last twitch stream so might be coming to TH-cam soon
One of the best short stories. Am still hoping you do Amber King Perturabo some day.
I found 40k as a boy in the 90's
Raised in a religion less household.... Everything I've ever seen in the world since that time and the stories I internalized as a child made me a True Believer
"I will not rest until the last stone ,of the last church, is cast down upon the last priest." Big e
Civilization will not attain perfection, until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest.
-Émile Zola 1901
people will always find a cult of views and morality to make themselves feel good, part of a collective, and justifty anything awful they do. If you point at an enemy and blame them for all of life's problems then anything you do to people who follow that enemy becomes justified.
cringe
@@Lazrael32 As someone who lives in the US, the religious factions in our country are embedded in our govt and preventing progress at every turn while literally trying to push for a coup. While non theocratic groups can certainly cause grief, right now in the US an embarrassing amount of our issues are being made significantly worse by the religious aligned fossils in power supported overwhelmingly by our religious populations. When the ultimate authority is god, and god is up to personal interpretation, and they have no fear of death due to the promise of eternal bliss, extremism will rise. It wasnt the atheists who stormed the capital, who rolled back wade vs roe, etc. And to remind you, the US is the most militaristic nation on the planet with the largest stock pile of nuclear weapons. I think its pretty fair to call attention to the religious zealots who literally tried to take leadership by force when an election didnt go their way. No ones saying throw them in camps or restrict their freedoms like they want to do to us, but its really not in our interest to elect these people and give them power, nor should we allow them to take it by force and trivialize it when they attempt to do so.
@@nullakjg767 hey you found your enemy and are blaming them for all your problems! congrats! nothing you said refutes anything i said. I'm not defending religion (I'm an atheist myself) I'm just pointing out that people are awful either way. if they didn't have a "god" to justify their actions they will simply find something else. this is the last time I'm talking about it because it's just gonna be very redundant after this.
@@markfoley3402 As in we have the most destructive capability. The point is if someone with bad intent gains control of this nation, the world is finished. Most religious texts encourage an apocalypse, speciically chrsitanity says thats when jesus will return. Someone might launch nuclear ICBMs because they think thats how you meet jesus. Its just a level of delusion that is really dangerous to allow power. Btw some places ARE trying to round up and imprison people, just look at whats happening in flordia. They are passing legislation that will make that legal based on their personal religious beliefs.
listening to this and leutin's video on the topic months ago made me appreciate just how badly the emperor has his foot in his mouth in the current timeline. the storytelling here is pure excellence.
Word Bearers, yes. But so does practically every citizen of the Imperium.
When you consider that Lorgar is his genetic son. And each son has an aspect of the Emperor. It means the Emperor has within him the human desire for faith and belief no matter how much stake he places on his reason.
It shall be sound in the last part: and the Emperor say "come we have a galaxy to conquer" to his guards.
The first clue you get at to who the man is is what you hear outside the church. It sounds like heavy machinery and many people approaching, yet only one enters. The name Apocalypsis is another hint and it was sealed for me when he began to question the use of religion. Big E is in the house. I’m fairly new to the 40K universe but I do like how the Emperor wants to convince Uriah to join him rather than immediately require his submission. He’s curious about why people cling to these ideals and wants to experience it first hand for the last time. 40K is such a great tragedy. The emperor being struck down by his favorite son laid the foundation for the creation of the most zealous, violent and fanatical religion mankind has even known. If the emperor ever returns I’m pretty sure his first words will be “WHAT…THE…FUCK?!”
the last part doesnt have sounds because it was copyrighted xD
Ohhhh😂😂😂
The thing I loved most about this is that it leaves room for the explanation that he really did see God. When he saw the emperor he didn’t see the same being he saw the first time. And when he regains his senses he is able to tell the difference. Which is why he maintains his belief in God after the emperor shows him another way. And he would rather die for God Than live in the darkness he knows is coming. And then as the emperor walks away. The clock chimes, signaling the last great calamity. The coming of the emperor. The beginning of the end of mankind.
He denied Him and the Big E felt it.
this would make a great rated R drama movie
Well the Emperor underesteminated the mortal mans need for a form of afterlife.
"Will only make them desire it more"
Maybe this was the plan all along. Becoming a God, powered by 10k years of worship by (at the low end) quadrillions of fanatic devotees.
"Word-Bearers."
Religious people can understand the debate, true fans know the hypocrisy to come. Thank you so much!
Emperor try to remove problem, but that problem element is part of humanity
and it surely fightback
Here we go!
Hi there, everybody in the warhammer community is always happy to see somebody loving the lore and the universe. But after seeing your reactions then i think we all would like to see what you want to learn more. Its not what we want you to react to, its what you are most curious about that we love so much :). So if you are curious about something, ask and we will find the best thing for you :D
One of the best Literature Pieces that have ever been written.
I would show my children this piece and watch them as they struggle to understand it's meaning.
It would take years before they would understand, but I have FAITH, that they will.
This is why I still believe The Emperor has a plan. He denied he was a God (while doing god-like things) as a head game to make humanity believe he was one. Only by doing that could he become a god himself and take on the Chaos Gods. He had to be cold, he had to be calculating and when Uriah says, "Denying humanity something will only make them want it more", I think The Emperor took that to heart. Faith has very real effects in the world of 40k and while the Emperor was against religion and superstition, I simply can't believe he didn't realize that he needed the faith of humanity to defeat Chaos. When he faces Horus he specifically tells Horus that "no mortal can ever hope to be more than a puppet to the Chaos Gods", and yet The Emperor consistently maintained he was a mortal. It's a genius head game that has taken 10,000 years to make manifest. I mean, he literally runs such a head game on Uriah himself. Why not the whole of humanity?
It's a genius plan by The Emperor for humanity can't argue that. Yet The Emperor fails to predict
the Word bearers and the Horus Heresy?
The priest reminds him of human nature, but The Emperor is blindsided.
That still confuses me to this day 🤔
"Only the true messiah denies his divinity!"
I'm pretty sure he wanted to elevate humanity to be Psykers on his level, and then move to the webway, to starve chaos out.
Remember atheism is also a "fate" Imagen a galaxy of humans who is fully convinced that the chaos gods do not exist. That thought/felling will echo and amplified in the warp, and annihilate the chaos gods.
@@kirgan1000ironic that the only person that match your description is crazy mad scientist Fabius Bile. Demons feels pain whenever they get close him because he denied their existance
Greetings, one of the recent surge to follow you I imagine but regardless enjoyable videos I look forward to seeing more. Warhammer
As for a recommendation that would be Warhammer related, I would like to suggest Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer: ADEPTUS CUSTODES - The Bodyguards of the Emperor of Mankind in Warhammer 40000. Baldermort is quite talented in his story telling, certainly informative and it's a great feel of how rich n powerful the Custodes are written to be.
All the best
Oh man, wasn't expecting this. Nice
The sheer hypocrisy of the Emperor to criticize religious extremism while his own Astartes burn planet after planet with the atheist equivalent of religious zealotry, killing anyone who does not agree with the Imperium's edict smh.
Stalin approves
Big E’s hubris knows no bounds. His goal was to detach humanity from the chaos Gods. But he was too smart and too far seeing to see right in front of his own feet. He is a literal supernatural being, an actual deity (yes, in the lore collective faith is elevating him to a God of Order). As a pragmatist he knew their faith had to be in the Imperium. This is a great story, but Big E does slightly come of as a petulant redditor.
When the priest says “we will turn on each other” after Big E’s aspirations are met he’s absolutely right.
Yes!!!!! I love this story and love the reaction!
It is very moving IMHO. Also deeply profound.
McNeill's and Portoghese works are both phenomenal!!
Watched this many times and for IRl, the Emperor speaks bare facts. 1:03:10 - No more games! Chill's every time, as if I was Uriah himself!
In a different version of the story the Emperor introduces himself as Revelation instead of Apocalypsis; IDKY the change, not that it makes nay difference, virtually mean one and the same thing!
Despite denying his offer and returning in to the Church, I always think that whilst Uriah would burn and or be crushed by the church's collapse, that the Emperor would use his psychic powers to have made it a painless death, as he genuinely respected* (and cared for him, as all of humanity).
* He could easily have made him do his bidding should he so have wished!
I often wonder, in universe, what and where the Big E is presently is and is doing in 2023; Hya for the answer, just search:
Statue God Emperor Trump
After all -I- I mean he, can take whatever form he chooses! >XD
My recommendation is from Warhammer Fantasy. The Book of Choyer, The Doom of Kavzar is one of my favorite short stories.
I think the general story and forshadowing of The Last Church is brilliant.
However it comes across a flaw that is very common. That being that Graham McNeill is an author and not a super genius on philosophy while the Emperor supposedly should be. So the Emperors arguements end up sounding more like those of a reddit atheist than those of someone who did actually study philosophy and argues against religion.
Space marine armor is great and all but it has gaps like all armor.
Is a modern AK can wound the space marine. You just have to find the gaps.
aww you missed the end credits sequence! it's nothing much but it leads to a preview of an event that takes place in the very first horus heresy novel.
My suggestion, thanks! , this is also good : The Galaxy's BIGGEST Troll? Trazyn EXPLAINED! Warhammer 40K Necrons Lore
Thank you so much for the suggestion🤍🤍🤍🤍
looks like you have got another great sugestion:P
The emperor talking BS and being wrong for another hour proving that power and wisdom do not come in a package. They must be achieved seperatly.
might be the last church but probably the first believer, and man to pray to the god of mankind. XD
what if uriah planted a seed of doubt in the emperor, and thus him on the golden throne is his own personal atonement to the sin of his hubris and, when he ascends to godhood i believe uriah will be his chief cardinal that spreads a new imperial truth born from the ashes of science vs faith and creating a fusion of the two.
IMO Uriah absolutely won that debate hands down
There is a little bit audio cut out you’re missing the “come we have a galaxy to conquer” line
When you realize the emperor is just a reddiot with a fedora to tip.
ugh I've already watched this small movie 4-6 times lol... Oh well, one more xD
11:37 yeh Emps, and think of all the weapons used in those atrocities (and the ones that did not have faith based reasons) all a product of science,
This is why probably why the Emperor decided the Thunder Warriors had to go. The way the massacred people trying to surrender.
Some of the arguments, well. Lets just say that religion makes it easier to find justification. However, by itself, it is not inherently bad. It is not only about the confort of the dying, it is about purpose. It makes it easier to accept our higher purpose. If only there was a way to curb the stiffling of progress, and harness that purpose into something productove
No he killed them because he made them as a ram shackled way they were great killers but the emperor needed soldiers and the thunder warriors had a bad case of tumors, mental degradation and psychopathic tendencies. They made the world eaters look tame.
This show is an excellent example of how debate is done.
I believe that both oversimplfy their cases for thier argumets, because they both miss the point about the history of religion, in that it is a type of thought process that evoles overtime and is a litmus for the development for culture, Art and Science even politics, but they are both right that humanity has paths that they have a choice to make in the interests of 'human progress'
Brave heat
17:05 this is a strawman, by Emps as it is just as applicable to his argument as the Priests
WAHGWAN Jah We back for the first time! #StopHammerTime
"the difference Uriah, is that i know i'm right"
his plans are probably in the hundreds of thousands of years maybe millions
whats 10 thousand years of humanity grinding itself to its marrow?
i sincerely see the emperor being THAT pragmatic
Uriah's arguments appear weak at first glance, but they are actually true. I always think back to the movie V for Vendetta, when V tortures Evie, what Uriah is saying 8s exactly what V said "Your father said artists use lies to tell the truth. Yes, I created a lie, but because you believed it, you realised something true about yourself."
Religion brought out the best in Uriah. I would not call religion a lie, but a metaphysical entity that fosters the true spirit of a person. By creating a central moral authority around a God (or idea of god) nothing mattered beyond following it, which is both powerful and dangerous. You dont need an afterlife or a god to foster your spirit. At its heart, faith is putting trust is things you believe are true, and trust them to see you through the worst.
It comes down to a single question. How do you feel like you need to live in order to say you are satisfied before you die?
I'm melting of your voice 😔
no. but the Emperor is old... VERY old. so had learned many thing geology being one of many
If you consider the thoughs to religion even though this is but a story. You have to consider this. The Author had to have these thoughts to be able to put them into a story. I do not think that he is the only one. I myself have never read anything to point to these all these things just,. World History. When you think about all of this worlds history combined you should come to the same conclusion. I myself came to this conclusion. Starting back before I was 12 I started seeing this and as I got older I learned more of this worlds history and saw more of the world. By the time I was 24 I had the same conviction As the Imperator In this story. I still hold it as well. I'm 58 now. What happens after death,. no one really knows. Those who make claims that, they do are misleading. I think at death the last thought should be,."Let's see what happens now.".
Fun note, at 1:03:59 the Emperor heals Uriah's injury. Watch the mark over his left eye, likely healed him after the battle years ago as well.
Also, at the end, I believe those are two Custodes with the Emperor and not Thunder Warriors.
Lol the Emps would heal a dude to full just before they they kill themselves with fire.
Those were Thunder Warriors at the end. Custodes would have had way more detailed armor. Plus, at least one of them would have been holding a guardian spear or one of their other specific weapons.
Custodes were created long after Emps United Terra..
@@galethsaldor8293 the Custodes were way before that. Their first appearance was the beginning of the Unification war. They were certainly there at the end when they ensured the Thunder Warriors were put down at the end of Battle of Mount Ararat (last battle of the Unification war)
@@ShadowGhost0117 I think you're right, their calmness at the end and the fact Custodes are known to always escort the Emperor made me think they were different. The difference in weapon just felt thematic for the story more than anything else as the Custodes I am sure could use just about any weapon known to humanity.
As I have said before, the Emperor insist he is no god, yet take the form of a ten foot tall giant with glowing eyes, echoing voice, and golden armor while casually using super powers. Message a little mixed there, buddy.
And while I am no religious man myself, his argument with the priest is hypocritical and constantly trying to strong-arm the argument to his way.
His response when asked "What make you different from others?" is literally "Because I know I am right." Like bruh. Yes, he is correct in that in his universe faith indeed empower the supernatural and could lead to horrific beings slaughtering the innocents, yet he refuses to explain and help others solve this problem with rationality like he intent his empire to be.
The Emperor condemn priests to be stubborn and unwilling to change, and he is exactly the same on certain issues, believing he know best and can make no mistake.
Emperor is right on almost everything he says, but he misses something important. Knowledge is limited, you cant know everything. Even the most well known fact has a very small chance of being wrong. Like the phrase "sun will rise tomorrow" sun will de eventually, and that sentence will be wrong. All facts are like that, only thing that doesn't change in this universe is the change itself. And belief is the lack of knowledge, it fills the space when we don't know. It makes us accept stuff that we dont know, and helps us against the despair of uncertainty. It helps us to decide, when we dont have enough information to decide. So you cant simply destroy belief, something else will fill that hole eventually. And that is exactly what happened when Emperor got wounded. Yes, religion is bad and we can do without, but it is not that simple to get rid of.
Compare his words to the reality of the 40k
Promo-SM
The Last Church is the worst and most disappointing stories in the whole of the Horus heresy. Evidently the writer has never conversed with a Priest of any faith in all his life and this fiction only serves to exercise his unreal world bias. Genuine disappointment after how much it was hyped.
I think you saw some different story by mistake man...
Or you have terrible taste.
@@galethsaldor8293 Don't blame me if you have simple tastes my dude. I expect some depth to my theological discussions
@@sunvandijk9490 I am sorry.
Feel free to be pretentious my dude..
@@galethsaldor8293 Not being easily amused is pretentious now is it? I must have touched a nerve with you, all too easy, that speaks volumes.
@@sunvandijk9490 Contradictory to what you seem to think, you are not a very observant individual, are you?
Considering your main comment which would your kind surely connect with "touching nerve/getting triggered" the irony flew right over your head, didn't it?
Or is it at this point simply projecting?
Mr "theological discussion" using the famous internet-simpleton "got triggered" tactic.
If you want to be so pretentious at least do it better..
Come now master of priests.
Enlighten me and prove me your superiority and enormous knowledge of all things theological.
Touch all my nerves if you must! Ill try to endure.
God Emperor
They used the stupid name for the emperor in this for some reason. In the books he is called revelation not apocalypsis and i think we can all agree revelation is a better, and less corny, name