ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มี.ค. 2024
- In this video essay I talk about why King has been receiving so much hate online and why grabs in Tekken 8 are very problematic. If you guys enjoyed the video and want to see more stuff like this please consider subscribing or showing the video to a friend. It means the world :)
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What do you guys think about King and Grabs in general in Tekken 8? Does King deserve the hate or Is he just hated because of the New Grab systems in Tekken 8? Let me know! Also I accidently said grabs are guaranteed as punisher but I meant as punisher for power crush moves
Maybe add some recovery frames to his signature throws, now he is rarely punished by non tournament players
@Boogard In truth, The King in the current Tekken games is King II, The King in Tekken 1 and 2 is King I. Same goes for Armor King.
I think it's a combo of grabs being massively buffed along with his heat smash that makes him so damn irritating to play against (for me at least). His heat smash is just wild. Plus as hell on block and gives him a free mixup that loops into oki, deals an absurd amount of damage on hit, breaks floors, does his taxes, does the taxes for his orphanage, etc. Pressing into him is even more dangerous now that throws counterhit, too. He's got solid power crushes to top everything off, and while they nerfed his poke game he still feels fairly solid there too.
I picked up T7 near the end of its' lifespan with Bryan and Lee when Guilty Gear Strive's servers were shitting the bed for awhile, and while King was frustrating to deal with while learning the game he never felt anywhere near as frustrating as he is now. I've gotten okay at breaking throws, and he just still feels like a nightmare to deal with. He's by far not my worst matchup, but he does feel like he's one of the least fun matchups for me. I'd genuinely almost rather fight a Hwoarang over a King player, even though I'm more likely to beat the King at my level of matchup knowledge.
I enjoy a King match, especially when I play Feng. It's a lot of pressure and positioning
The tracking is the biggest problem imo, not just for king but for several characters, for some reason DRAG comes to mind! XD
This isn't just a Tekken problem. Casual players of almost any fightering game hate grapplers. Something about that archetype just annoys people regardless of they are top or low tier.
A lot of players hate grapplers, but with King it feels more brutal. His chain throws(and throws in general) are slower than, say Zangief’s from SF, and the fact you could’ve broken it but couldn’t is another mental factor. Add on the damage and you have a character that doesn’t make you feel good when fighting him.
I think is because it take control away from the player for a brief sec. Once you are stuck in grab it has to play out until the end where you gain control back. Whereas with non grapplers there are small windows to counter attack.
Simple tip for King is pressure, when you have a high pressure character it balances out, King doesn’t get a lot of + on block moves so he can get punished pretty hard. As a King main the key is to programme the opponent, for example a lot of people just duck in his heat smash fearing an RKO I’ll take the read and do the down grab pedigree. Then they’ll think twice to duck low leaving open for an RKO. High level Tekken is mind games and you cannot rely on Kings chain throws at a high level.
@j.i.nthenobody54 yeah even I got to admit that King is pretty good in Tekken 8 making the hate more wide spread.
I feel like it's because throw animations take your control away for a little bit longer than a hit stun and people get really frustrated when they lose agency in games(also most casual players aren't aware they don't have any agency in the middle of an opponent's combo and keep mashing hoping to break out or recover sooner while with throws everyone is aware you can't do anything until the animation is over)
Marduk in TEKKEN 8 will be a nightmare
😮😮😮😮
i can see Marduk's tackle being unbreakable while in heat :D
Armor King tho
@@HeimTarch BRUUUUUHHHHH don't even start 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
@@menmakazama1747 He would be nice
Marduk and Armor King would get the most hate lmao they better not bring my main Marduk back its going to be a nightmare for noobs 😂
Grabs beat sidesteps, armor atacks, parries, basically the best counterhit tools in the game (10f-12f), give no recoverable health, are true mix ups, over half of a full combo worth of damage or more, no recovery on wiff, extremely safe go to option, very hard to break even for high level players, and probably make your coffe and pays your bills as well.
Lol well said
Right about everything except true mixups, idk why people keep saying that, probably to make themselves feel better
"true mixup" is only partially true and also pretty much exclusive for king because of his giant swing and chain throw mixups
@@tefyrapela2714 Coz you cant break them by arm animation, exclusive king feature
@@tefyrapela2714 King has ambiguous throws where you cant tell by the arms, so it really is 100% a mix. even for other characters, breaking throws online is not easy at all with all the other mental load of the fight alongside, you really only see people doing it consistent at the highest level
Man, to be a Main King nowadays is to receive constant hate, but that doesn't matter when you remember that every victory and every butt we kick is for the happiness of the children.
Good you deserve it. Learn how to actually play the game and ppl might respect you again.
@@eventhoyouwerentaskingStrange way of saying you don't know how to break a grabs 🥱
@@Necalli-dk3zv strange way to say you’d do oral with a jaguar.
Damn❤ we king main❤
@@eventhoyouwerentasking Sounds like someone lost to King🤭
He just annoys me personally but yeah I agree with your point about it being an issue of grabs in general and less about the character himself
For chain grabs, you can hold down what break you think it is instead of spamming. Should help save ur fingers at least. Also, since the really long throws have King switching what the break is mid grab, holding a button, for the most part, should get u out
He's definitely annoying when you don't know the matchup
@@BlackJustice2637 if you know chain... but if not - wrong button and even if you change to right buttons there no time, you are feeling pain. And King in mid of chain has 1,2 and 1+2 breaks... So your chances 33%, it's even low than what ppl angry about Alisa saying that there a lot of moves of 50\50 (bs, every character got similar move set of 50\50).
@@Boogard annoying even if you know the matchup. Cause even without grabs he is a very powerful foe.
@@Boogard everyone is annoying if you dont know the matchup. Lee, Jack, Paul and drag will two tap you if you dont know their jank.
My girlfriend is a King main. I regularly played against her in Tekken 7. I did not have a problem with King and actually didn't mind fighting him. I actually had decent Throw breaking in Tekken 7.
In Tekken 8 there's no character I despise more. I'm not even sure about the specifics, but the matchup just feels so much harder.
I'm so incredibly tired of seeing him and fighting him is so much more exhausting than every other character in the game. Especially if you're trying to learn a new game and a new character and despite previous Tekken experience are still working on fundamentals.
I don't know how to balance King. I don't know enough about the game. I'm just tired of fighting him.
King is my main. He is the only character I play.
My advice, change girl friend, That way you won't have play against him (King) all the time lol.
Get good king is amazing
Well they made law’s dss grab break a 1+2 break with a proper 1+2 animation. Now it’s easy to break whereas it used to be a special 2 grab.
@@majorlazor5058he’s the only character I’ve ever even selected
Idc what nobody says. Whorerang is 3 times worse then king
King is worse
Depends on the rank
There was a time where I would agree with you a 100%.But somehow t8 managed to change my mind. I still love king the character but the way he plays in this game is so ridiculous. And i depise hwo and ling
Lol we really hate hwoarang
@@NintendoNoctis-ub8fo learn to break throws
its a shame because king as a character is so cool, his design is iconic. but grabs should not track to both sides and not be guaranteed on Counter hit. I wouldn't even mind them toning down the damage on his throws aswell. like does giant swing really have to do 70 dmg?? lol, Even if it did 60 dmg that would still be a lot. Also the fact that some of the throw animations lie to you and look like a 1+2 throw when they actually are a 1 throw is crazy.
That is the mixup. Otherwise where would King be?
No he needs the animation gimmick to be viable at high level play
The only thing that should be reworked is homing throws. I get why they made it that way but we should be able to sidewalk it. Like, come on. I'm okay with it catching sidesteps but we should be able to sidewalk
@@mehmetvursavas5922yeah true actually
@@hardiksharma9 exactly. He doesnt have 10 second block strings or funky mixups or faints like most of the cast and the only thing he does have (throw-mid guess) people are furious about. Scrubs.
The problem with King isn't that he's a grappler. It's how the grapple system is implemented for him specifically and more so how it doesn't scale properly when doing the grapple combos. You can do combos in this game that do 80 damage, but that damage isn't taking 80 percent of your health. Maybe half if you get hit with an 80 damage combo, but not 80%. King on the other hand can do grapples that can essentially almost insta-kill you in a match. If you're doing King's grapple combos it should scale, but they don't. Because it's a grapple, you get no recoverable on top of it. It basically ends up becoming an unfair match-up. If they want to buff King, that's fine. However, they need to make his grapples scalable as if they were combos. Because that is ultimately what they are. It's either that, or they need to make the combo grapples extremely difficult to do like in other games. Because as is, even the scrubbiest of players can do the grapple combos for easy wins. I think that's what is turning players off on King more than anything.
Grapple combos? You mean chaingrabs? If he crouchdashes just hold 1+2, boom he loses access to RDC and Kings bridge. If he did a jaguar step, guess between 1 and 2. Those are not combos, you can break them in every step, theyre not comparable in any way, shape or form to getting launched.
@@ulurius Technically there's both, but yes that is what I'm talking about. Chaingrabs are when he goes from one grab to the next. Grapple combo would be going from a combo into a grapple. Example would be like when they have you in a juggle state and then perform a grapple while you're in the air. I know I'm probably using the wrong terminology, but you get the idea. Either way they should scale if it's something that's continuous. Unfortunately, King doesn't scale and will just drain your health. Sure you can hold 1+2, but with the amount of matches I've played, especially against wifi warriors, I am rarely able to get out of any grabs due to terrible connections.
My biggest issue is that playing vs King feels like watching unskippable cutscenes
His dickjab on ch has an animation
Half his moves have followup animations
His grabs last forever
The amount of time spent vs King just watching with no control over your character is higher than vs any other matchup. It contributes a lot to why it's so frustrating.
thats not a dick jab(d1 or d2) thats underhanded (ffn2) its kinda reactable at 18f(plus input animation)but most of the cast cant launch it as it is -12 on block which is basically nothing(of course there is always kazuya and his twin pistons)
Precisely
If I lose to ANY other character I can learn during the rematch. If I'm getting grabbed on loop, I feel like the only way to learn is going into the replay to learn the input.
I'd love a system where after rounds or even full matches the game pops up a small tool tip telling you what the grab-break input is for any grabs you got hit by during the match. Because once I know what the break is, getting the timing right and eventually breaking grabs is actively fun and satisfying.
As a King player I would love this. We get grabbed a lot because of the...uhhh...unsubstantiated rumors about our ability to tech throws. The Waifu characters especially do a lot of flowery animations in their throws. It isn't always obvious what throw is a generic break, a 1 break, a 2 break, or a 1+2 break.
Bro this system is already in Tekken 8, you can watch your replays and it will tell you the throw breaks and best punishes for the character you played against
Just gotta lab it. Tekken you actually have to learn move data and not just go "me hit button and all ok". Sorry to say but you gotta learn kings throws to know how to break them. And the chain throws are easy to break if you know the secret
I feel like he just doesn't give up anything in exchange for his grabs. Most grapplers in other fighting games trade mobility in exchange for their command grabs, so they struggle a lot to get in. King on the other hand has more mobility options than half the cast (i.e. crouch dash), fast moves, good counter hit tools and a myriad of command grabs (some of them being true mix-ups), which starting with Tekken 8 now track and are unbreakable on counter hit or block punish. And that's not even counting Heat. It gives jaguar sprint armor (and he has an unbreakable throw during this stance), it allows recovering heat by just applying his gameplan, and has the most damaging heat smash in the game.
I think there are major balancing issues with the character, and since it's very unlikely they would just roll back the throw system changes, they should probably just tone down his damage in exchange for all the new opportunities for grabs there are now.
King might be overtuned but mobility wise he has the worst backdash in the game. I agree throws should never have been homing but making them hard to break on counter hit is actually okay, especially since that was a roster-wide change.
If you get countered by a throw you were dancing around in the negatives or used a big button up close. And you can still mash out of it. I think anything counterhit should not be nerfed in this game where raw aggression is already so strong. It's not like you can't use your big buttons, you just need to mind your turn and your spacing.
Every grab you duck is an easy while standing punish for 70-90 dmg depending on your character. Just saying...
All of the complainers are non-grappler players, it shows because you don't even know how truly hard and complex it is to condition your opponents to be grabbed. Even the video here showed you can just mash on him and it will be difficult. You all talk like that's not a viable solution and only scrubs do it. THAT'S THE MIND GAME of the grappler. Try using King and tell me how easy it is to grab anyone
@@123nicanor If scrubs can do it at the lower levels, it's not that hard to begin with. I've played plenty of grappler players and none of them can do what King can do in T8. Grappling is their primary gameplay like King, but their tools or movement isn't that great. Hence why their grapples do so much damage. King has everything at his disposal. If you're going to give a grappler everything at their disposal, the most you can do is nerf or make the damage scalable. Because the pros shouldn't outweigh the cons of using them.
Most?...You couldn't be further from the truth. The KOF series is well known for having grapplers that have mobility. Even Street Fighter has more mobile grapplers now than they do traditional grapplers. Same with DOA.
Honestly the problem isn't his grabs, its his sheer amount of armour moves that force you to stay still and eat strings.
I find Dragunovs throws much more obnoxious
Man, I've been doing a lot of research trying to figure out king, but part of the problem is that he has multiple identical throws with different breaks. So, not only do you need to know the break, but also pray that the reason you missed it last time was due to bad reactions and not a bad guess. I just duck and eat the launcher a lot now.
He only has identical throws out of crouch dash, none of his regular throws are identical to each other. Giant swing looks similar to a 1+2 break, and very similar to shining wizard, but there is a clear difference, that being he leans forward and slides his arms down, it is really hard to break, but it isn't a true mixup.
I don’t care about the King situation. But I do agree that the grab system here is a bit much and should be re-worked
Love the video essays keep it up
Glad you like them!
Grabs, powercrush, heat smash. That's all you need to win 90% of the players. It's not a king problem but t8 as a whole
Powercrush and Heat smash can be punished and countered... And grabs not.
@@zeronim1965ever heard of ducking?
@@sachinmajotra9665 and king got a crouch grab... After the grab get your ass up.
@@zeronim1965 and paul got a death fist , lilli got Matterhorn, drag got running 2 and so on. If you'll duck at the wrong time obviously you will get your ass blasted.
@@sachinmajotra9665 Hopknee exists. Crouch grab exists.
Yo ur videos are getting better rapidly. Keep it up
By far the worst part about king is the counter hits, ch throws, shove, df2,1 being able to hit confirm on ch and ffn2 make him such a pain to play against
Definitely ok with you doing a throw break guide. Its not just kings. Dragunov has a crazy throw game as well.
Online I have had throws which I pressed correct inputs for but still I eat it with 4 bar connection. Especially those 1+2 throws are hard to break online.
So I am new to takken and it really does feel like grabs in general are the problem in low ranks everyone grabs permanently since it’s free damage since nobody knows how to break them. So naturally king is hated as the best grappler in the game.
Honestly, as a new player in red ranks. I just duck Kings throws until I start getting clobbered by mids. A lot of times I don’t get punished for crouching by king players.
The tell for which throw to break being a slight twist of the torso for a split second is just obtuse and dense game design and I will die on this hill.
It has been discovered recently that in Tekken 8 you can break King's chain throws by just holding 1, 2, or 1+2 through the throw cutscene, leaving only regular throws a hard thing
Well there's still the issue with unbreakable grabs and and how strong throws in general are as counters, but every little bit helps.
Extra props for the Sonic Mania background music!!🥳
It’s not just the throw breaks. This frustrates me in the dialogue about King as many people think it’s a noob issue.
His b3 is a fantastic power crush. And it has a counter hit follow up. It’s an excellent keep out tool and the pushback plus King’s huge frame makes it hard to punish or interrupt with characters who don’t have advancing lows.
He has a hit confirmable mid launcher at 12f. Good Kings just won’t follow up with the duckable high if it’s blocked.
His four way jaguar sprint mix up in heat is very oppressive to play around due to its power crush properties. RKO is unbreakable so you have to duck on reaction. If you duck automatically JAG 1 is a mid that launches in heat.
His heatsmash is up there with the best in the game. Can’t be stepped beyond first hit. Can’t be jab interrupted due to negative frames and armor. Put you straight into four way mixup with JAG.
And this is all on top of the throws.
that damn" jaguar sprint"😆
Is not just the grabs, armor moves and the low punch damage in counter is insane 😂😂😂
I've gotten pretty decent at throw breaking over the last few months but at first is was absolutely awful to have to deal with. I'm at flame ruler right now and I'm fairly certain that if I wanted to I could just play patiently, wait for a grab opportunity and win most of my games by employing that strategy alone. Almost nobody in this game unless you're a legacy player is breaking throws with any sort of consistency.
I'd like to add, you mention the reaction speed necessary to break throws, that really isn't the issue as a new player, 20f is plenty of time to react to a generic throw. Command throws though... I first have to go through an entire thought process to break the throw i.e. pick the right throw break button combination. Then you've got king and since he disobeys some of the throw rules you just have to guess.
This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but throws in general need to change, make them slightly easier to tech. When 95% of your player base can't break throws without labbing 100 hours (and I genuinely think you probably need that much time to get very consistent) then you've got a big issue. Also, making them easier to break wouldn't even really effect pro play because almost nobody is getting thrown at that level.
Breaking throws is legit the hardest thing to learn in Tekken, it isn't KBD it isn't electrics or wavedashing. It's throws. THROWS. OF ALL THINGS, THROWS?!??
one thing that annoys me is that on top of the throws and grabs King also hits FAST AND HARD, he doesn't even need a fancy combo to take out a huge chunk of your health even without the grabs, sure that's less bad than the throws and easier to learn how to deal with but it feels a bit overtuned.
all those things combine are still not as bad as dealing with Dragunov or Azucena though
while grapplers in most games tend to be hated by the nature of their design, I think combined with the system changes in tekken 8 makes it unbearable in an online environment. As someone with experience in previous fighting games but new to Tekken, after hitting Garyu one of the things Ive had to put at this point, weeks, of time into is learning how to throw break since its so different from any other fighting game and im still not particularly good at it due to how hard it is to do. It doesn't help that even after you learn how to throw break, kings throws are mostly 50/50s so even if you do try to throw break, you still might just guess wrong.
I really dont understand why they made throws homing, theres an argument that with power crush being stronger making counter hit throws and throws on power crush unbreakable makes sense, but not being able to side step throws anymore? doesn't really track with how they designed the game this time around, tekken is much more aggressive now, with the improved movement system why wouldnt they allow throws to be side stepped to encourage using that movement and punishing throws after conditioning your opponent with power crushes? you can also throw heat burst so that makes even more sense.
Hopefully they remove tracking throws in a future patch soon, it really seems like the only sensible option between keeping new system changes and balancing how generally strong throws are now.
Edit: I also forgot that King also has 2 grabs that are heat engager's one has to be ducked and the other hits low, so if he has recoverable health, he can recover it, enter heat, with his best in class heat smash and heat recovery when he throws and keep going.
It's not just his grabs.What makes him broken? It's because he has a lot more than just being a grappler. He has the best counter Hit tools in the game Some great panic tools. He got big damage with oki after even combo at the same time one of the best heat mode and the best at throwing. He just broken
Great panic tools, like a shitty hopkick. Oh wait, he also has a dickjab and two reversals which are incredibly specific, unrewarding, and launch punishable.
So King is definitely annoying But there seems to be a fairly simple thing that people may not have known. I saw a video the other day that says if you just hold down either 1, 2, or 1+2 during a chain throw combo it always breaks it. Mind you IDK if this is a bug or not but it is consistent. So that is a way to better counter king.
Here is the video link for anyone wanting to know
"A New and EASIER Way to Break CHAINTHROWS" by Brawlpro
th-cam.com/video/oDpBpFsZ8rE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=IMGcGo2ie9Zx5zPY
My main is Azucena. Most times when i got a match against King, im always fighting while ducked😂 the leg sweep never fails. King mostly grabs while standing
no one else has access to throws? am i buggin or does drag, jack-8, nina, paul and above average throw games? theres others im missing im sure.
no one has as many grabs but i think a lot more characters have a 1+2 break plus the normal throws
@@braindent6464 so? Jack has like 8 command throws lol and one you can combo. King has a full combo throw. Nina has chain throws. Drag has at least 5-6. And let's be honest. Most king users only use about 3-4 of them anyway
Being very low rank, I usually rely on my opponent not knowing many grabs and will mash 1 or 2 to figure out which one works vs the king I’m playing. That and trying to duck more often. It’s not perfect but it helps me not get perfected by him atleast
if they keep doing one grab over and over again try to break with either 1, 2, or 1+2
@@fartman.mp3 for sure 👍🏾
As someone who mains King at an intermediate level you don’t wanna fall for things, an example I like to give is his heat smash running RKO, most players will duck but if you do it a lot it’s predictable you’ll duck is just down throw the pedigree instead and the same way the other way around. Key to beating king is high pressure.
@@edmundblackadder2741 that’s good to know. I’m not good at high pressure currently but I’ll work on that.
you have not mentioned the power crush and heat smash that makes him more annoying, you cant really mashing into him all of the time due to the power crush if it hits you u have to take a ridiculous 50/50 if you cant break them throws
Honestly what annoys me is his grabs are on top of an already really strong kit. His power crush leg drop for instance. Does that really need to do that much damage... Really??
I think that the most unfair part is that when you have a 50/50 and you guess correctly you are rewarded with a punish. For example, if I guess that Kazuya goes with a hellsweep and I block it, I can launch him. But with King you get nothing. Read his actions and broke one of the ten throws correctly? wonderful! Go back to neutral and guess again. Didnt guess? Here is your 70dmg combo. Plus he has rudiculous damage on... everything really and its not compensated by bad mobility or slow speed of attacks. Man that sucks
i think the throws can be tweaked but overall the its overblown. people want to mash cheesy strings without thinking at all. thats another can of worms.
Yo congrats bro, you about to blow tf up, lil majin just reacted to this video. So congrats man. That’s the dream. 😂😂😂
Thanks 💯
lol what? King is one of the MOST gimicky characters! PLUS the incredible throw game. He has INSANE neutrals, thousands of setups and gimmicks. He is perfect, id argue even more than Jin and Jin is incredibly overpowered also.
make throws not homing
counter hit throws got me feeling like tag 2 again
Another thing is that the chainthrows were made easier, so you see them MUUUUUUUUUUUUCH more
In addition to all the other buffs to throws you mentioned.
what i do vs king is i hard duck,like the whole time,jab duck,mid poke duck,low poke duck,on hit on block on whif,just duck,he is forced to hopkick me and kill me like that,i didnt see no grab animation,i dont rematch,ez to do,the kind feels bored and defeated even tho he won.
That's not even the biggest culprit, his stance in heat is just a plain guessing game, and if you combine that with his heat smash it just becomes very frustrating to deal with, also don't forget crouch throws are unbreakable for whatever reason which gives him free hit engagers, which in turn gives him more chances to mix the hell out of you, and his heat smash being like top 3 in the game, cause it's really plus on block, it has really good range and great damage and on top of that it puts him in stance which gives him a guaranteed mixup on block
King is hated because grabs are strong, and King is a huge grab-skill check
Bro I'm playing king rn and I'm rajin trying to not spam ff n 2 and grabs, his neutral is so fucking strong
Yeah for sure I'm hoping they nerf grabs soon
I hate throws. Even if you break a throw, you don't get any advantage. For example, when you block attacks or sidestep them, you most often have an advantage in frame,and with throws you are just in neutral with opp
The advantage is that you don't get thrown.
Once opponents see you can break throws, you don't have to deal with it anymore.
whats the outro song at the end of the video?
Kitsch (Tekken 4)
@PirataMundoTV I got it right after I posted this, it was in the description of one of his videos 😂
People love to see king in tournament but hate to fight him, just like Zangief. Also you missed the point, kings throw is pure guessing, no one can tell gs/sw/mb by hands reaching.
very true
Can you explain the abbreviations?
@@AZAZEL_TKGS giant swing, MB muscle buster, SW shining wizard
Yeah I don't think the 50 50 throws are a big deal for most players because most people aren't reacting to the hand to break throws anyway Lol. I feel like the 50 50 throw was made for competitive players first and foremost
Yes they can. In muscle buster he does not lean forward, in both ISW and GS he does. Between ISW and GS there's a smaller difference, but there still is a difference, that being that king slides down his hands when he does GS, and runs up when he does ISW, so not even that is a true mixup.
i feel like my grabs constantly get broken. They can't be that great if they are so easy to break.
On my life, I'm Tenryu and with almost 300 hours and I still can't break throws. Most of my throw breaks is pure guessing. I've spent hours practicing using PhiDX's video and I'm still struggling. There's just too little time to react.
I'm Battle Ruler and still even if i know how to get out of grab, it's not always works, like my break buttons lost in space :|
A friend of mine mains king, and i started this game by fighting him instead of ranked. After knowing the match up, whenever i face a king its the freest win ever.
IMO it’s because like you said most people who play tekken even for fun KNOW that grabs have always been the cheapest way to get over on your opponent cuz it’s so hard to see which arm veterans know this better then any player and they exploit it…we don’t hate king we hate the players who use him to just win by any means possible
Tbh kings in my rank(eliminator - garyu) barely spam throws, and do have solid fundamentals otherwise. Either that or they somehow gained respect to not only use throws ever round
I never get why people just don’t change their grab controls to counter grabs easily lol. I usually put mine to the bumper buttons L1 or R1 lol.
I have to use some Reina unbreakables on him all the time. Paul death fists and special comand grabs.
Funny little story: playing casually with some friends online when the game came out, one of my friends played nothing but king and spammed grabs. After I played king against him while he played a variety of other characters and he stubbornly kept telling me to play king and took like 12 matches to finally beat me (I hadn’t even read king’s move list, besides the 1 2 1 grab string my friend kept spamming), he never played king again after that.
King is top tier, easy to play, hits like a truck, is incredibly knowledge checky, and most kings online I see in red ranks are just spamming 2-3 moves and throws. I don’t struggle as much with king anymore and hate other characters more than him (drag, for example), but in his current state, king simply isn’t fun to fight, even when you know how to fight him. Especially when you know just how much harder you have to work just to fight someone who’s drooling on themself and spamming. Another thing is that throws are even harder to break online. Not just king players, but a lot of players of all sorts of characters are being carried by throw spam right now.
King is not top tier and imagine complaining about players who use their tools. Grabs are in the game and they are strong, of course people is going to use them.
@@davidepicchiotti9989King is top 3 with drag and Jun, he just said that is grabs are annoying which is correct
@@davidepicchiotti9989 most kings I play against are hella predictable after a couple rounds cause grabs, lows and powercrush are the only tools they use xD not sure how you missed that point. A good chunk of king players don't even try to learn the game or learn what other tools they have.
Playerbase and pro players alike generally agree king is top tier and grabs are overpowered right now. Look up virtually any recent tier list video and king will be in S tier alongside drag, dvj, feng, xiaoyu etc.
@@perriah3865 sorry, missed the latest news about tiers and all of that :)
you can break grabs? how?
Tracking grabs wasn't needful I agree on that. However to say no other character has access to CH tools as powerful isn't really accurate. There are characters with CH launchers with as little as 10 frames that give full combos and potential for wall enders.
King's throws are undoubtedly strong but throw breaks are a necessary skill to acquire even if it takes time. I'm not perfect at it but have become somewhat consistent with practice.
Except a launcher combo isn't taking half or more of your health every time it's done. Not to mention the higher the rank the harder it is to actually get the launcher combo. Even with throw break knowledge it is still challenging to deal with in an online environment.
being a person named King, i am absolutely upset because everyone hates me
Yo Boogard I think you missed something really important: in previous tekkens you actually had to be good at chaining inputs in order to execute his grabs. Nowadays in tekken 8, even the most untalented of players can perform full grab strings just by mashing 1 or 2 brainlessly. The devs should increase the execution of his grabs and I guarantee you that 70% of the people spamming King would just look for another main.
your are absolutly right, when I saw the commands for the chain grabs I kind got pissed, I had to memorise all of that shit and have execution on command in prior tekkens and now you can get burning hammer almost by mashing lol
there only his df throws which have that feature, the other stuff was made tremendously easier (and was a bit confusing for a long term king player) but it still requires memorization
That's false. In other tekken games you had shortcuts for every chaingrab by using a Ki charge input. Nothing has changed.
@@ulurius which always results in a 1 break and is easily broken
I'm personally more tilted by his new run stance into unbreakable rko or safe mids and his safer than average power crushes than any tracking or counter hit properties on his throws he's always had
His rage art does a whoping 64 damage too
I think throw breaks in Tekken are not only hard, but also a very uninteresting mechanism. Imagine you're playing a regular fighting game and Whack-a-mole at the same time, every time you get grabbed, you have to react correctly. It's a pretty isolated system as a game mechanic, and tracking sidesteps made it worse. It's a boring mini game that was suppose to die out, but the game made a character about throws and they can't get rid of it. People who grab doesn't get rewarded, people who gets grabbed gets punished when they fail to break it. It's a negative system where breaking throws is a correct way of playing the game, or you can't meet the game design's demands and fail, which is an incorrect way to play the game. It's a gatekeeping system for newbies, without adding actual engaging complexity to the game.
The new fighting game effect; Grapplers are considered overpowered Top Tiers until people get good
honestly as someone who has dealt with king for those 20+ years I can say the grabs are important for the tekken's identity but they need to ton down grabs abit make them easier to deal with and less problematic but still keep the ch throws since they help a lot with dealing with power crush abusers and punishing rage arts but maybe remove ch throw properties from characters who have them.
Anyone know the origin of the BGM used?
The issue with the “solution” is that it doesnt do anything for the average player.
Make grabs sidestepable? Most players dont side step.
Keeping the break window the same even after a counter hit? Most players dont even react to it.
If I were to take a jab at it. Probably make them harder to do. Make performing certain grabs stricter. That way you hit the average player without nerfing the competitive ones.
I'd say new players are much more likely to sidestep grabs then learn to break throws. Its alot easier
King is just King. On steroids in T8, yeah, too strong, but still - just a good ol' King.
Now characters that spark actual HATE cause they're total BS are ling and jun.
I've been playing since Tag 1 and I still struggle in breaking throws.
Yeah it's really tough for sure
It's always was like this, but new grab system is soo sht that it's made grapplers a hell.
Street fighter player here. Throws is also a pain in the ass because how quick they are
The frame window to break them is also terrible and you can easily get throw loop 5 times in a row until you guess right
Glad to see tekken have the same problem
I swear every king does that stupid fucking armor kick and then follows up with his run kick or grab.
He used to be my main, so I respect him. I only get beaten by actual skilled kings I feel like anyways
what's funny is Tekken has the only throw system that is reaction based as opposed to guessing or guaranteed
A throw window of 20 frames in a 60 frames per second game equals to 333 milliseconds. The average human reaction time to visual ques is 273 milliseconds. Now add to that delayed frames, ping, and the need to react correct and it makes it very insignificant. (unless you are a God-tier pro with very low reaction time)
@@davidgabay9398 273 plus time from button to server. And here you have 300-500ms, and as I see all my matches in 60-150ms latency, i think you got an idea on problem of new grab system and netcode issues... So in reality you got not more than 7-10 frames to react.
@@davidgabay9398 Thats not the really the point of my response. The thing im pointing out is that if this character was in any other fighting game you'd either not be able to break his command throws or you'd have to legitimately guess evey time.
If you're arguing that throws in general on Tekken are an issue for the typical player then that should apply to most of the cast seeing how almost every character has at least one 1+2 break accompanying their regular throws. If King's throws are cheap why aren't ppl complaining about Jack-8's throws? He has quite a few and one that tosses you in the air for a chunky combo that can do more than King's Giant Swing when hitting the wall.
As for his multi-throws, they all have at least a 30f start up. If someone is abusing those then you are not attacking/challenging their offense enough.
I do agree he is fairly strong in beginner and intermediate level play, but it's not because he's actually "broken" levels of strong. It's because it requires the player to actual take time to practice sharpening their skills in the game. Just like anything else in life, if you want to be successful, one must put in work.
@@davidgabay9398 You have more time than that due to the animation, which adds another 10-15 frames, depending on the throw (so 30-35 frames total). i23 is about the threshold where moves are generally considered reactable in Tekken. You don't have to be God tier, most upper ranks in Tekken can break with 90%+ consistency. It seems difficult for lower level players, but it is absolutely something that most experienced Tekken players can do.
@@davidgabay9398again that's a larger window than most fighting games like KoF
as a king main, just make the grabs linear again and maybe nerf some of his mids slightly like jaguar run 1 (which is so strong for a safe, uninterruptable mid btw). honestly tekken 8 has a problem of just 90 percent of the cast being mix up monsters and heat engagers being either safe mids you can throw out randomly or whiff or block punish tools which kinda sucks in my opinion. I would actually appreciate it if some heat engagers were gone or replaced with other moves. King's shoulder for instance is so unnecessary. Crouch throw and RKO are throws so they make sense. Power crush is also ok i guess. And f2,1 is there to give king a heat dash in combos. But shoulder is just a free mid you can throw out to mix people which is dumb.
I will never say I hate King. I think his design and legacy are nothing short of inspired. I think the idea of the reduce the overall efficacy of grabs is the best course of action. ANY character with good command grabs is eating good right now. It makes sense that a character built around them is feasting.
So I started t7 in i think 2021. Personally throw break are definitely hard and the throw buffs in t8 just makes king a menace already. But personally I feel like that's his identity. tracking throws should go yes. but outside that throws are about fine.
My issue is that if king is a grappler why does he have so fucking strong poke and neutral tools as well. Some of the best CHs. Some of the most gimmicky strings, some actually REAALLY good strings etc etc etc. like he has EVERYTHING.
Like Chs were nerfed but for some reason king still got to keep his i13 safe on block ch string that can be delayed by so much that after pressing df2 (i13 elbow) you have enough time to go make lunch AND EAT IT before you have to commit to the follow up. This also gives a combo on depending on the character or at least follow ups into king oki. Essentially 0 risk because again safe elbow that tracks quite a bit and you don't HAVE to commit to the high follow up. AND the high follow up is just on normal hit launch/knockdown into oki so you cant really even challenge king after the first hit or you risk dying to the second.
for good strings you could look at even his 10 hit starter. or 2,1...
f2 follow ups can be gimmicky and again twitch confirmable to some extent....
and ofcource throws have so huge coverage that using them as a CH tool is quite common. and with king having stuff like jab +1 into i10 throw is stupid. essentially putting you into a mix up immediately after blocking a 1 jab from king.
Yes his movement is a bit weak BUT he has the jaguar step to just essentially again have the best backdash in the game with again safe mid heat engagers afterwards. on normal hit as well. the risk he takes is a bit bigger since he can THEORETICALLY be floated out of it, but to do that you would need range and then getting the pick up is usually not possible.
0 on block mid shove that on ch gives him +18 to do what ever he likes with some pushback. meaning again heat engage/wall splat incoming have fun.
Good combo damage. Even with relatively simple combos. like just do hopkick into b3 into wr2+4. You cant get more simple than that and that is already like 60 damage.
i could keep going for ever but the last thing i want to mention is his heat smash which does STUPID damage. like i mean why does it do over 1,5 times the damage from some others? with insane range? yes it can kind of be stepped, but doing that is very hard and on block it gives a true mix up still.
ofcource some of these do lose value the higher you go, but you still see some of the best kings use f2,d1 just trying to catch them ducking.
I don't really get pissed by king like that, cuz I cannot deal with grabs in fights to save my life
The heat smash is real annoying too
Like you said,king has always been hated by new players,but in tekken 8 yeah king’s a problem because throws have tracking now. You used to be able to give him the Drag treatment and side step his samey looking grabs. THE REAL PROBLEM WITH KING THOUGH ARE HIS COUNTER HITS
I've seen ppl online who clearly don't hve fundamentals but break every throw mixup in a match on reaction ...
How ...
Mashing. That's the only way it is happening.
As someone who plays King, on one hand I am glad that King can actually play more as a grappler in T8 when compared to T7 where he just played more like a poke and CH character. Again I have played decent amount of KoF and compared to it, grabs in tekken just didnt seem as viable.
On other hand, i feel T8 changes to be a bit weird. Grabs are meant to open up turtle or people who block a lot in fighting game but in T8 they give grabs CH and tracking property so now grab actually counter offense and movement which is like, why? Notmally offensive play and movement is supposed to counter grabs in most fighting games i played
I don’t have an issue with his power, if someone pick you up and drop you on your head. It will hurt more then someone punching you that’s how I think of it.
Not sure why everyone keeps saying punish grabs are unbreakable. They are breakable with a normal throw break window. And even pros will duck vs king it doesn’t matter how good you are vs breaking if they use giant swing lol
I meant to say unbreakable to punish power crush
@@Boogard ah yea that’s true for sure. Just wanted to clear that up because I’ve actually heard a few people say that weirdly. Enjoy the videos tho man keep it up I hope I didn’t sound like a hater lol
King and mostly any grappler can easily get in your head, as a grappler main that is the idea. to get inside the other player head. It's obviously more effective with inexperienced players and Tekken being a different beasts in terms of grab breaks, well you can see why a lot of people hate him.
Me personally I loved King since I played T3 back in the 90s and still love him today as my main.
EDIT: Lil Majin's reaction brought me here
Indeed looks like reducing the the volume of grabs is the right idea..
On my opinion, grabs should not be an oming move neither the counter property
I get that breaking grabs is hard. Tell people this simple guide thats not perfect but works for me. If your facing a king and he's spamming throws try spamming 1 during the first round to break. If that doesnt work during the second round spam 2 every time you see him grab. Most bad king players who use the throws to win only know how to do the easier throws not the command ones so 1 or 2 will break. Also most players like that will use the same grab over and over even when you have learned if it was a 1 or 2 break. Shining wizard is hard (the running knee grab) but its a 1+2 btw. And just for the record im a king main and its true we absolutely love what they have done for him
They should reduce his heat smash damage by 50% at least
Love the character, hate what his gameplan has become. Even though he's annoying asf tho, I'd rather play against 100000000 Kings than a single Hwoarang, Xiaoyu, Raven, Zafina, Victor, Nina, Feng and Alisa
I doubt it
Agreed tbh
Lili Drag and Bryan
What is it about raven?! Yesterday i fought like 3 ravens in a row and they All killed me with Some Bull shit strings an low high shit and like i dont know the matchup😅
@@joydutoy864 New Shaheen.
Nah. Alisa, Victor or Leo is a real nightmare...
Victor and Alisa: Yes I agree
Leo on the other hand: No
You gotta play evasive against Leo. Their attacks are fairly easy to punish. One wrong move and you are eating 85 damage and maybe more at the wall.
I have nothing against King. Sure, throws are a bit overtuned in this game and he gets to do alot of damage with a bit too cheap price to pay at least in low ranks. But for me there's some opponents that are much more annoying than King, for example Alisa or Jun. For King, I just adjusted my playstyle for either staying further away from him or not giving him room to breathe. Grappling him instead works wonders in low rank as well. I even have more problems with Jin compared to King but that's a me problem. - Vanquisher
Can't forget on top of grabs being guaranteed on certain punishes and needing reaction, you have to figure out which button to mash for teching grabs on. 1, 2, or 1+2, other fighting games, you just press the same grab input. Its easier there and people still hate grapplers, so this is Super Saiyan levels of ewwwwww in Tekken.
King is my main since Tekken 4 and I am Kishin in T8. In the other installments if your grips were broken King had trouble defeating the broken characters. He is now a fair character, his Giant Swing and Tijuana require difficult input at low levels, it is normal for him to do a lot of damage. For the first time he is Tier S, don't change him
I hate king because his heat smash has 0 counterplay and everyone online plays the exact same shit way with B 3 at start of round twice in a row. And the fact that you fight like 20 kings in a row. Grabs are whatever, jaguar stance has to fucking go, he shouldnt get that ON BLOCK, on hit that would be fine, but its on fucking block. If bandai added a crouch grab to Jaguar i would drop this game
You know the jaguar sprint mix-up is fake, right? The throw comes out in 23 frames, you can just duck it on reaction.
@@thefabledenglishman6000 I cant react that, but i can react Jins D2 and devil jin db2, too flashy for me personally to see. But i should be able to interupt that on block not have to tank it. its terrible design
@@10du16 If you could interrupt it, it would be useless. Most characters in the game get a 50/50 after heat smash on block anyway.
The throw is not difficult to react to. It has a flash and an easily readable animation.
As a king main we are EATING!
And you can grab with every player. If you can't break King's grabs, you can't break anyways grabs. Paul's 2+4 and back is one of my favorite tools and it's 1+2 break that most of the people I play online struggle with. Every character has these types of throws, King 👑 just has more overall throws.