61264 B1 Locomotive hits the buffers at Norwich
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 เม.ย. 2021
- 'The Broadsman' excursion arriving at Norwich Thorpe Station and hitting the buffers after uncoupling from the train.
Featuring Locomotive LNER B1 61264.
Filmed 10th April 2004 (SD only).
#traincrashes #traincrash #steamtrains #railway #railways #buffers - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Hammond! You’ve crashed the B1 into the Buffers!
If Hammond had been driving it would have rolled through the station forecourt, then the car park and exploded in the river (after randomly crushing a line of parked Marinas).
@@CullenRick 🤣🤣
@@CullenRick and a caravan
@@P0RT3RS1GN4LM4N ah yes
Hammond you idiot you’ve crashed into the buffers!!!!!!!! James: hahaha Hammond: I didn’t mean to. Clarkson: you idiot
Might not seem like a major incident to some of you but the shear amount of metal involved in that impact is very substantial. The locomotive alone weighs over 70 ton alone, add the tender at 50 ton then consider all the coal and water aboard, then take into account its moving and you can see why even small accidents can result in pretty severe damage for both the locomotive and track equipment.
My grandfather prided himself in just "kissing" the buffers and never being so heavy on the regulator as to spin the wheels and cause railburn.
Onlookers taking photos:
"I can't see a thing"
"Look through the eyepiece"
😆
Or maybe take the lens cap off.
As a point of interest, I have a Sony Alpha DSLR that doesn't have "liveview", the screen is just for viewing pictures later, and to show at all the exposure and setup info when you're composing. I just bought an A35, which does use the screen, but as with plenty of these cameras (and phones), you can't see it in sunlight.
I'm sure the station manager was well impressed with all that soot
It was his plan to use the bounce for a speedy reverse with just a touch of wheelslip to put on a show
Yes, nice physics.
I’d have thought it was obvious. Clearly not to some🙄
That’s a smart move
Clearly the driver wanted to show off the people on the station
My dad told me the steam engines could spin the hell out of the wheels, I guess so!
“Granville, fetch a mop this footplate is swimming and it isn’t from the tender.”
LOL
This beautiful and unique example of a steam train is a credit to the great people who work to keep it in such a marvellous condition. I thank each and everyone of them because when I was working on the railway back in the 1960’s this lovely engine I’ve personally cleaned lots of time and later driven as well. Thanks for the memories! Ashley Cheatle, COLWICK SHEDS.
Okay so I think I've read every comment in this thread. Nobody has mentioned what happens INSIDE a boiler with a sudden 'stop'. The water surges forward [boilers don't have baffles in them]. This exposes the CROWN SHEET [flat steel plate above the firebox]. The crown sheet will have at least one, most likely two FUSIBLE PLUGS fitted in it. These are designed to melt very quickly if not kept cool by the [usual] water above them. Fusible plugs are designed to protect a boiler from irreparable damage caused by an overheated crown sheet. They do this by discharging steam downwards onto the fire. The whole process works well - but...
If the firebox door happens to be open at the time [highly likely in this incident as the fireman is trying to cool the fire down a bit after steaming into the station with a full load, but now just light engine for shunting] then this sudden steam discharge blows back into the cab, sometime including hot coals. NOT healthy for all those on board the footplate at the time. [This is why footplate crew attire is mandated as long sleeves, long legs, cotton, NOT polyester material - in most parts of the world, anyway. A.K.A. a boiler suit!]
The other reason I call bollocks on the whole premise that this was all planned, 'to use the energy imparted into the buffer springs to rebound the loco for a quicker reversing', is that any 'extra persons' standing in the middle of the footplate would be thrown onto the very hot backhead of the boiler by the sudden stop. More injuries!
So, no, not an acceptable practice in anybody's book, very dangerous, and I expect the UK's rail safety body would have had quite a bit to say to that driver :-(
My two cents worth, from a tourist railway steam driver on the other side of the planet ;-)
Because the time it takes for water to slosh back is much faster than is needed for the fuse plugs to melt. It may not have exposed the crown sheet at all.
Yeah very good, except you're missing some bits. If the loco has come in on a train that is vac or air braked, and stopped fine, but now the next move is light engine on the steam brake, how do we know that's still working ok, and not full of condensation or defective in some other way?
My bet here is the steam brake didn't function properly (for unknown reasons) but once the Driver realised it wasn't going to stop he attempted to halt the loco by going into back gear and opening the regulator to either reverse or at the very least slow it down.
Unfortunately that didn't work in time to prevent the collision, and the slip you see afterwards is the preventative action kicking in too late.
So rather than moaning about the Driver, maybe consider that he did his best to stop the collision with the bufferstops? Yes ultimately it didn't work, but at least he tried.
@@tombrophy8019 Exactly! It wouldn't be the first time a Driver had been 'caught out' by condensate in the steam brake!
No to mention the possibility of priming the boiler and it lurches to a sudden stop.
@sharkheadism - hitting the buffer stops that hard? Of COURSE the crown sheet was uncovered! That the fusible plugs didn't have time to melt is irrelevant; it was still LOUSY driving.
Driver: "I thought pressing those big buttons changed the points!"
Plenty of room between buffers and points no need to go any where near the buffers
Even on the 2nd attempt they went far further than necessary!
When Network Rail are probably finding excuses to take steam off the the UK rails this isn't exactly the best example to set 😳
This was 17 years ago. There's been a few other incidents with steam locomotives on the mainline since this happened. Not helped by spectators trespassing on the tracks nearly every time Flying Scotsman runs.
@@norfolkngauge plenty of incidents with modern traction as well!
@@royfearn4345 Yes, unfortunately there are
The greens want it ALL banned every steam train every traction engine every BBQ everything.
@@norfolkngauge plenty of West Coast Railways deciding their a law unto themselves and making their own rules, until their loss of licence for a while…
I would say that they had brake failure and the driver was trying to get it into reverse to stop it hitting the buffers. Sadly a bit too late. This would account for the reverse wheel slip after the collision. Also, it is highly likely that the abrupt stop would cause the boiler water to surge and be picked up throught the regulator valve. This would then flow into the superheaters and flash to steam with no control as it is being generated after the regulator valve.
That would explain why they keep going back and forth afterward and don't just hit the brakes. Was really confused why they went forward toward the buffers and then back toward the carriages again after hitting the first time.
Yup that makes sense
If you zoom in you can just about make out the valve gear being wound back whilst heading towards the buffers
Surely if the brakes had “failed” that was the time to shut everything off and investigate, not hitch back up to the carriages full of passengers for the return leg. I thing he was far too busy enjoying the glory of his job, shat himself and threw it into reverse without thinking.
Considering it’s use after apparent brake failure is unlikely. Driver could’ve equally underestimated his stopping distance and went too light and late to stop intime. The conditions are wet to some extent too which would additionally lead to less stopping from the reduced friction. In the offchance the brakes did fail I certainly wouldn’t have it out again until they’re checked and dealt with.
@@Jaidencharlotte When a steam engine is thrown into reverse when traveling forward with the throttle closed it pulls air in from the exhaust and compresses it against the throttle valve making operate the same way a a Jacobs Brake on diesel engine.
Bet his mates take the pess over it, naughty. Lol
Nice to know the buffers actually work anyway, probably the only time they get tested.
Yeah nothing worse than naughty pess taking
Nope. A few years ago, a driver hit the buffers as he was half asleep. Fortunately, it was low speed & an early train, so there were only a few commuters on the train. There were injuries caused, but nothing major. I think the worse injury was a broken or fractured wrist. At the time, my uncle was the signalman at Crown Point, so was directly involved in ensuring safety of other trains that were then obviously stuck in the wrong places outside the station. He also had to give evidence to the inquiry. It wasn't made known to the public, but my uncle heard from others involved in the aftermath, that the driver tested positive for being DUI. The driver was claiming it was the side effects of his prescription medication. Not that it made any difference, as he was instructed on the QT to resign, effective immediately, or be instantly dismissed after the inquiry, under the full scrutiny of the press & public. Personally, I believe that was done to minimise the inevitable negative publicity that Greater Anglia would have had otherwise.
@@tomboychick
Human error and human frailties. Happens in airlines and shipping as well as roads and railways. We do tend to steer clear of people who have these tendencies to flout safety but nobody can be hundred percent. It's why companies cannot be prosecuted for employing such people unless you can prove negligence. The rules on employment agencies stipulate that references must be strictly checked and adhered to, as an example.
Aside from all the comments about what happened, why it happened and what the driver should and shouldn't have done, I just wanted to say something about the locomotive itself.
61264 was the only LNER locomotive to be sent to Barry Scrapyard. Thankfully (as is quite obvious here) it was saved along with many others that were sent there. Hopefully if it returns to the mainline one day it will never be treated like this again.
Ah if A1/A3s were sent to Barry. Alas, no.
Good to see that people are on the safe side of the platform
As Harry Enfield would say ‘you didn’t want to do that’
There was absolutely no need for that to happen - Brian Coat
Finally, the camera doesn't face the ground!
It was supposed to go on to Lowestoft and back to London on the East Suffolk.
It eventually turned up behind a 67, much to everybody's disgust!
The engine wasn't allowed to go home in view of the mishap, but a few days later it was permitted to go to Dereham at reduced speed under its own steam and was transferred to a lorry there.
Bet that was a nasty jolt for the footplate crew and hope it didnt do any damage to the engine.
Hi, I can't find too much information online but I remember that unfortunately there was damage to the locomotive and it remained at Norwich for a while for repairs.
If i remember correctly, it suffered leaking stays, and had to undergo examination for running on the network again.
On another trip to Norwich, she suffered a hotbox and was failed on arrival. She was allowed to travel at slow speed to East Dereham on the MNR so she could access a lowloader (crown point being landlocked). I remember there was many negative comments about the MNR at the time, as they charged the loco's owner quite a large sum to access and use their line.
@@norfolkngauge After that?? It was like 1 mile an hour. The bigger the machine, the more destructive for sure.
@@TheBrickGuy7939 The locomotive weighs 72t plus tender over 50t. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Thompson_Class_B1
@@James_Rivett They’re entitled to charge whatever they like. The owner must have been happy with it otherwise it wouldn’t have happened. It was likely covered by insurance anyway as part of the recovery from an incident (assuming they had decent insurance).
there's no such thing as a 'small' mishap on the railway. I should imagine the Inspectorate will have something to say about this.
I recall the three car DMU from Cromer failing to stop at Norwich Thorpe in 1971 and several passengers, including me, were injured. Grease on the track was cited as the reason at the time.
It looked like Captain Smith of the Titanic was at the controls.
I thought it was the milkman!
Oh wow, I was here and saw a skid and lots of smoke, but didn't see what happened. Thanks for that.
Don’t worry about the brakes I’ll just chuck it in reverse…which lever is reverse!
Man wearing a tie on the footplate. Nicely designed loco with comfort for the crew.
I remember this incident. If my memory recalls there was an enquire held by Network Rail over a small bump!
I know that man. He don't seem to be getting any older!
great video!
Wow, love the earnest reverse
At my work, you get stood down & drug tested for even thinking about a stunt like that O_O
Saw a 47 do that in Eastbourne once makes a hell of a bang
“No brakes! No brakes!”
(coasting)
“This is not stopping!”
(still coasting)
“Please stop!”
Saw the headline but didn't expect it to actually hit the buffers but it did !!!
Best bit is the look of casual confidence on the driver at 01:22 as he sails happily towards a blatantly visible dead end.
Except for the fact that was not the driver, the driver sits on the other side of the cab on the left hand side.
Amazing keep up the great work I’ve subbed
Beautiful beast
Reverse was stuck so they gave it a big shove and it worked 🤣🤣🤣👍🏻
"Buffers don't like to be eaten."
You weren’t concentrating, Thomas. Lucky for you if the buffers were there.
Trouble ahead trouble behind and you know that notion just crossed my mind
The thing that struck me about this is that after the bounce back the crew did n't seem to be in control for a few seconds with an engine moving back towards carriages possibly with people still in them or alighting which could've caused injury to those passengers. This was something quite different to the engine just 'kissing' the buffers which I know must've happened regularly in the past and where everyone just carried on. I find it strange that professional railwaymen seem to miss this point and argue about 'boil in the bag ' drivers. As I'm not a professional railwayman maybe I'm missing something here and so I'd be the first to admit that.
You sound fun
@@jonelson1983 She does!
It did look odd loco spinning in reverse. Was a hard kiss lol but something was not right there. Odd
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited The driver or fireman probably panicked. I'm guessing one of them was a bit slow to react and threw the regulator open too quickly. I don't know a lot about the mechanics of steam locomotives.
@@gregkiteos1936 Here's my guess. There are two mechanisms that control power, the regulator and the reverser, and the reverser has a middle position where the valve gear doesn't move, and no steam enters the cylinders. So perhaps what happened is they put the reverser in center, forgot about it, and kept trying to open the regulator more and more wondering why the locomotive wasn't reversing. They then realized what was wrong and pulled the reverser open to full reverse, and all of the built pressure in the steam chest from having the regulator open was then dumped abruptly through the cylinders, causing that severe wheelslip.
After seeing that driving I wouldn't want to go back on that train 😂
Nobody did, I remember that the railtour was cancelled after this happened
@@norfolkngauge so it should of the driver should get a bit more practice before going back in the mainline again
@@clarky2356 *should have
Driver needed to piss in a cup, I'd imagine. Collision with buffer during shunt. If he had slid it would be more excusable. Simple inattention.
My grandfather was manager of LNER. I've travelled on many a steam train as a nipper. Grandad said they did this as either laziness (don't want to wait for the change from forward to reverse) or what i think this guy did was to impress the cameras. Either one may fit.
As to the comments he misjudged, this bloke has done this a zillion times and you can see him watching the buffers and only moved at the last moment. Pushing the water forward jams open the regulator, called 'priming' and this gives more power, but can lead to slip if the regulator is opened to soon.
That happend years ago in germany too. Express Engine Class 01 1066 bumped backwards with the tender in sight into the buffers at the Norddeich Mole Station. But nothing was damaged and nobody was hurt.
Here another video with buffer tests th-cam.com/video/vGKDRe90VpE/w-d-xo.html
I think the driver was remiss in not only having hitting the buffers hard but in immediately reversing hell for leather before verifying that nothing was broken, including the track.
Seriously, are you on crack? You don’t know why the driver had done that? Honestly?
It is that sort of poor operational performance that does nothing to enhance the case for heritage units being permitted to operate mainline.
Made the onlookers jump a little 🤣
1:40 is EPIC with all that steam! Slick driving 😂
Just imagine it stated in reverse and they couldn't get it to stop 😱😱😱 wouldn't bare thinking about
A lot has changed since then. Much more stringent standards. Remember the Wooton Basset Jn incident which made everyone take note
I have seen quite a few photos of old steam locos with bent buffer beams from an over-enthusiastic shunt. If it was a goods loco that was in a minor shunt and everything still worked they just carried on as though nothing had happened.
I've seen a delightful video of a Hudswell Clarke loco shunting at a steelworks, no-body giving the slightest acknowledgment to the sharp bend in the running plate from an evident altercation with other stock!
We've all been there, hit something and stuck ur foot down hoping no one saw you
In this case a station full of people watching you
Driver " taken off" straight away, I would expect. That was serious miss handling of a locomotive. If he is unable to stop a Light engine at the correct place, he certainly should not be entrusted with a train. What he would do with a heavy " Loose coupled" freight?
It was planned, Notice how as soon as it bounced they set it into reverse and it gained speed
@@DR28089 even worse. absolute disregard for just about everything we was taught. Our Traction inspectors would have anyone miss handling a locomotive like that "off track" immediately. Unlikely to drive again.
That behaviour only impresses those that have never passed to driver BR main line.
I mean, loose coupled freights have been banned from the network for ages now, so that's kinda irrelevant.
@@DR28089 Most likely the super-heaters got a gut full of wet steam and had to expel it somewhere. Super-heater tubes are POST regulator so shutting that doesn't help. Quick thinking with a power reverser into mid gear will, but I suspect this loco doesn't have a power reverser. A manual reverser is too heavy to move if the steam chest is 'supercharged'.
I'll comment about exposed crown sheet elsewhere in this thread!
@@asteamyaffair9993 definitely no power reverser - none of our working steam locos in the UK have them.
Are you watching where you're going or just using the force? 😂
Hits bumper block, then wheel slips it out of there lmao. The hell were they doing in there?
Don’t you mean buffers?
Regulator got stuck most likely. Either that or went fully reverse in attempt to slow her down.
Or both
@@trainlover658 sheesh, perfect time for that to happen lol
@@SaulsSodor lol, here in the USA, we call them bumper blocks (at the end of the track).
@@TEMPLE7D ….bruh I have so many American friends and I never heard any of them say bumper blocks they call them buffers
Would the bounce off the buffers have caused some priming to occur and that's why the wheel slip afterwards? Also some commenters here seem to be saying that drivers would bounce off the buffer stops on purpose in the old days. Why was that done? I used to work on the railway here in Canada when I was very young and I know sometimes the train crew would try a banned manoeuvre that used to be common "just to try it out". Could that be what happened here, or more likely just misjudgement of the locomotive's speed, braking force necessary and distance to go? I'm a pilot now and as you all know, not every landing is the prettiest.
Just sloppy working. Inattention. Driver hit the TOGA button after the bump
@@capnskiddies I know trains are powerful, but I don’t think they have the power to take off yet, never mind go around :P
It's counted as a 'Collision' nowadays Keith and is a serious offence, not in control of the engine (or train if a multiple unit). They used to test the big hydraulic buffers at London Waterloo by running a steam engine into them. My DI (Driving Instructor, I was a Salisbury Driver), said that jets of water would shoot in the air ut of valves where it was displaced.
what poor driving. hit the buffers then panic going back again
Very good
impressive
crazy to see a video from 2004.
Don`t PANIC. ...Sir, I`d like to be the one not to Panic, Mr. Mainwaring
I love how the people on the other platform get slightly startled when she hits the buffers. 1:38 Then they legit get concerned for their lives. 1:40
Perfect video! Nice images with Steam Locomotive 🚂 Thumbs Up & Subscribe 👍
Greetings from Romania
Andrew
Now I know why all my buffer stops on my model railway are spring loaded
Be careful recreating this on your model railway as your locomotive will be in danger of crashing through the buffers and flying off the layout
@@norfolkngauge lol. My 1960 buffer stops and slow speed running are OK. Thank you. I'd never ever wreck one of my engines. My 1938 Freight Set no 2 is still in its original Meccano box too.
@@michaelcampin1464 Sounds like a nice model!
One way to engage slip-eccentric reversers...
In the words of Sir Bruce Forsyth “Didn’t they do well?”
Nice to crash into you, to crash into you . . . . .
@@emjackson2289 Very nicely thought! 😂😂😂😂
No!
Any Damage?
Nice wheel spin to finish off the routine. Amateur hour... did the RAIB show an interest?
Not sure but the tour was cancelled after this stunt.
I think the driver forgot to slow the train down and that's why it hit the buffers
Great video and capture of an unusual incident. I guess driving by brail isn't in the handbook!
Is this the equivalent of doing a donut in a car and wheelie on a bike? Haha
Back in the day no one even raise an eye about this sort o thing
Agreed, nowadays the boil in the bag drivers with 6mths experience think its a reportable offence !
Fortunately these days (for a good few decades in UK) there's a much greater understanding of the need to properly investigate minor incidents, in order to prevent major ones - the underlying causal factors from minor are normally the same as those for major, with just the outcome being different (often down to nothing other than luck).
@Kent Rail Fan, yea I agree. I remember in the 70s working at Tees Yard, if an engine became derailed at low speed we used to rerail them ourselves and get the local ganger to repair the track. No one ever knew there had been an incident.
Nowadays the boil in a bag drivers will report anything before using common sense.
If a bit of modern traction did that there would be all sorts of consequences, investigations etc. And the way he reversed. What was that all about? Dangerous.
With that sudden stop, even at a few miles per hour, I wouldn't doubt that caused a lot of sloshing in the boiler and potentially it might have primed just a little. The fact that the engine was in reverse gear points to the driver probably wanting to use a bit of reverse steam to come to a halt and start on backwards.
(though I don't know if the points at a station can be switched quickly like in a yard)
Not exactly. Steam engines don’t work in the same way as cars.
Ouch
Very elegant.
“Lucky the buffers were there to stop you, Thomas!”
dude as soon as i saw him going for the buffers i started yelling “BRO APPLY THE F_______ BRAKES UR GOIN TOO FAST TO STOP PERFECTLY AT THE BUFFERS-“
I wsh he went faster
Well, at least we now know that the buffer stop works properly
Oh! It's like watching a swimmer's turn.
Just after he hits the buffers, was there a reason that he opened the engine revved up or was it just out of surprise?
He shat himself. Not a technical description, but accurate I'm sure
funny wheelslip
It is interesting that locomotives can still run round at Norwich.
They can't anymore, the points are long since lifted or plain lined.
This was filmed in 2004
@@norfolkngauge I thought the platform 4 loop was still there? (Been a while since I was looking for it!)
@@CullenRick crossover from Platform 2/3 and/or run round via crossover from Platform 4 to Middle Road all still there/possible.
I do hope she didn't sustain any damage, and I hope both driver and fireman are alright as a result, that was a fair clang, and it's a damn good thing the buffers are there realistically, otherwise, it could have been a lot worse
Thanks for watching. I don't remember any injuries being reported at the time. It took 3 weeks to perform checks & repairs before it was able to leave Norwich.
Locomotive steam brake not warmed up enough leading to condensation?
just a sloppy driver
Ooh that bounce back
Who put those buffers in the way, haha 😄 😆
Is that a steam engines version of a j-turn?
It's how it used to be done apparently the recoil saves time. 😂
Haha true
Provided the crossover changes in time!
Aren't you supposed to wait for the points to set and the ground signal to come off?
And the massive wheel slip?
Nonsense
61264 after hitting the buffers: *Screaming*
What was the creaking noise?
Did he forget to brake? Bizarre incident. I bet someone got a warning for this!
The buffers sure did give it a bouncy impact.
But why all the sudden wheelslip? Surely slamming on the brakes would be more efficient
Regulator stuck open
What if there was a problem with the loco brakes? Next step is to try and apply steam in reverse gear to stop it, but it's a race to get the reverser into back gear and open the regulator again before hitting the stops. I'm guessing that's what he tried but it was too late, so the sudden burst of reverse acceleration happened after the bounce, rather than preventing it.
Quick back shuttle … make it look like we intended to bounce off the buffers haha …
Seen this a lot - at many stations. Good job by the designers!
"Kiss the buffers", bloody hell, is that Uncle Albert tweaking the dials?
Well that was f* careless! Could’ve sustained some serious damage!
I wish they'd do this at Norwich with the entire fleet of the Class 745s. Should be mandatory in the Rule Book!
I'm guessing you're not a fan of the 745s 🤣
they need Sybil to come sort them out lol
Slamming it reverse back towards a set of points without permission, and not knowing which way they are set! A big No, No!
How do you know he didn't have permission or wasn't sure how the points were set?
@@modelsteamers671 He hit the bufferstops, that is a collision. So the driver is not allowed to move as that could destroy evidence, when carrying out the investigation into what happened. Who told the driver to set back towards the points? The Driver should have stopped once he was clear of the points, then when he got permission set back over them, he didn't stop so didn't get permission to travel over them, so they could have been in any position.
@@royfairbrass3541 I'm asking how you know how he didn't have permission to set back or knowledge of how the points were set? You haven't answered that.
@@modelsteamers671 Once the Driver had the collision with the bufferstops, that takes precedence over what permission he had been given earlier. He shouldn't have moved, the signaller (if informed) shouldn't have given him permission, who ever was in charge of the move shouldn't have given him permission, it was a collision, a safety of the line incident, nothing should move. I do take your point regarding the position of the points though, but whatever position they where in, as soon as the loco hit the bufferstops, the Driver should have stopped and report it to the Signaller, he didn't stop, but went immediately in reverse, without permission.
@@royfairbrass3541 I'd hardly call a minor bump into the stops a collision. It's not the best driving I've ever seen but minor bumps like that happen daily and nothing comes of it.
The driver has had a minor error of judgement and provided he's got authority to set back I can't see what the problem is.
That's a funny way to put her in reverse!