Example of a Zettelkasten Structural Outline
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2024
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Keep this up. No one is showing the analog way like this ... I started recently and want to learn. Please continue to share!
Thanks, appreciate it. What specifically would you like to see next as far as a video? What questions do you have?
@@scottscheper For me, I would like to know where the numbers you use come from. I looked at the links from your getting started pdf, but I didn’t see any numbers attached to the topics. I’m just getting started and I don’t want to set something up that I will soon feel trapped by. Having a numbering guide could be helpful.
@@scottscheper Hi Scott, same here! Best would be if you would do a step-by-step for a child. I know its probably very frustrating to do once you know it, but I think this would really help me and possibly others to. Take an example of a kid who wants to learn all about lets say the Marvel universe or Dinosaurs or something. Do it step by step. And please limit camera movement. When you move the camera that makes it harder to follow your train of thought. Thank you!
@@kathleenspracklen6849 look how far you've come in such a short time Kathleen! Can't believe this comment was only from two months ago.
Thank you. I've been studying ZK for a while now and have found so much contradictory videos and articles that I was beginning to think that the whole thing was a fool's errand. But this video appeals to primary sources and makes so much more sense. Thanks.
This is pure gold
You made my mind blown away 🤯
Your video exposed a lot of gaps in my understanding
Thank you for pointing out this details
And please make more videos like this to make things more clearer and to help us uncover more gaps, and fill them.
Thanks man ✌👍
Yep of course. What type of video would you like to see next or what questions do you have?
Man, you are doing a incredible job!!!! Thanks soooo much! Finally someone teaching from self searching!!!
found your channel on a zettelkasten “research spree” after reading an article about it on medium. best vids on the topic so far. thanks for the help, and for citing primary sources as well! i will implement this soon :)
It helped me! I'm the one person!
Please do more! Best video example I’ve found.
Of course. Glad it helped. I’m happy to create more.
Wow. This is amazing. Just finish the whole video and taking notes. thanks for sharing.
That was brilliant mate, thanks very much. I 've just started to look into this as some kind of way to record my learning and reading. I read that 'How To Take Smart Notes' but ended up more baffled than when I'd started it. I've ended up stuck a bit between the Robert Greene/Ryan Holliday commonplace book system and trying something like this. As it is though, I am still currently stuck on my organisation. Videos like this are a massive help, so thanks again 👍.
This may help you out as well. It’s a quick and dirty guide to how I built my antinet: drive.google.com/file/d/1yK3zempcdW8Oc2zuBbmNk1yV71iREwhI/view?usp=sharing
@@scottscheper Superb! I'm going to get cracking on that today. Thanks again - you've been a massive help 👍
Nice video, thanks! I get how this is a thought-stream. Not yet convinced that this is the most efficient way for me to have thoughts. It still seems a bit performative: like it's easier to do once you've already HAD all the thoughts, but not necessarily the best way to work through them the first time. I enjoyed your discussion of the appeal to authority. And your argument about the imprinting that writing enables. Ahrens actually argues for the efficacy of writing when he's talking about "retrieval".
Yes, agreed on it being easier *after* you've had those thoughts. I think there's two types of workflows: one wherein you're thinking on paper, and then next wherein you have the outline for an idea and then seek to elaborate on each component of the outline. There's a time for each.
I got here with some bias in favor of a digital Zettelkasten. Now I realized I'm using my digital Zettelkasten just how you describe, down to unique ID's (I use timestamps that also get time based juxtaposing going) and taking my time. The only thing I don't do is branching thoughts, and I know it is because a digital document has "unlimited" space. Just a lovely way to look at it
Loved it. A proper overview of how you begin a note would be informative. Just this video seems to point more towards a top down approach, guided by a general idea.
Second this!
Will aim to put something together on this soon
Just posted a new video on How to Take Literature Notes. Hope you enjoy.
And That's the way I want to learn!!!!!! I need guidance!! Something!! So tired of these digital methods that I'm losing my mind over.
Yep of course. What specifically are you struggling with or what other type of video would you like to see?
Great video Scott! Thank you for making me discover Johannes F.K. Schmidt's work & the numeric archive of Luhman's notes. Having the primary source is always way better
:)
Yep exactly! Thanks for watching, Alexandre.
Thank you so much for posting these videos--they have been so helpful. It helps to see someone who has been doing it for years instead of the last month! I found your instructions on twitter so helpful when I took the plunge. The only thing that was too 'out there' for me was the Zotero tool. Maybe a video about that?
Yeah I’ll add zotero to the backlog of video ideas to teach. Thanks!
Thank you for the video, it actually answers some of my confusion caused by reading Ahrens' book.
Of course. Hope it helps. Let me know if you’d like to see me cover any other topic.
"Spend more time reading and less time with the drama on the forums" AMEN!
An appeal to authority is entirely valid in any case. It's only fallacious when the authority is, in fact, not an authority.
Well, Scott - you helped this one person! I haven’t been watching your videos in order so coming to this earlier one answered some of my questions. But more importantly this video really helped me understand why an analog version is so powerful. Truthfully, as much as I love taking notes (for the past 60 years) thinking of this starting system makes me very tired. But I see the enormous value of frequently revisiting notes - I see the value of hand writing notes because it DOES imprint ideas better than typing. What has always been missing for me is a way to index and link my notes. I never knew how to do that. And I don’t know how to do it yet, but I’m willing and eager to learn. A question I have is - when you pull notes/cards out for a project, how do you keep track of were they are so you can correctly code new notes? Thank you for making these videos. I have listened to several of them multiple times because it helps me understand in layers. I loved your letter where you told me to take 5 cards, then 26 cards. It’s easy to assume that people understand what you’re talking about but beginners don’t know. I am a newborn beginner. I hang on every word. More please!
Glad to have you! Welcome aboard! The Index is the way to find and navigate your notes. It points you to a card and then opens up a whole branch of related cards.
Reading Smart Notes now, would love a further breakdown on the inaccuracies or issues with it as a video :) hope that idea isnt horse shit
It's about 50% horseshit. Still, it's the most accessible guide to Luhmann right now. The other avenues are quite dense. Johanne Schmidt's research paper on Luhmann's system took me about 2 months to get through and it's maybe 15 pages.
@@scottscheper that's insane. I'll have to check it out!
You. Are. The. Bomb.
This is awesome.. thanks for sharing
Hi Scott, I am now troubled by coding the cards. Could you kindly illuminate me on this issue?
As you show in 10:43, you have A/1, A/2, and A/3 following the logical sequence of themes tightly. But most of the time, we do not develop ideas within Zettelkasten in such a logically chronological sequence. Say, if what came to you first is A/3, then A/2, then A/3.2, then A/1.3, etc., how would you suggest we code them in fixed numbers without seeming so arbitrary? At any point of idea development, we probably do not even have a general picture of A1 to A3 until later.
I appreciate any pieces of advice you have.
So the example I showed is a logical, linear sequence. You’re right in that sometimes (if not most of the time) our mind doesn’t work linearly. In fact we may not even need to elaborate on the card ‘A/1’ or ‘A/2’ at all. That’s totally fine. You don’t need to. All that matters is that you link the one you elaborated heavily on. The example I showed is more orderly than an antinet usually is. You want ordered chaos, bot ordered order. The only thing that really matters is properly linking whatever idea you deem worth elaborating on. It’s location doesn’t matter. It can either be “down stem” (like in thag example, like ‘A/3’) or it can be a link to a card on a remote branch somewhere (e.g. ‘5424/4/2A/1’). Doesn’t matter as long as you hard link it.
Have you tried building your own antinet yet? I wrote a Getting Started Guide. You can find it pinned in my Twitter profile. @scottscheper
If you want to make a video and share I’m happy to provide feedback
6:36 now finally the structure of a zettelkasten is coming together in my head. Much more informative compared to hairballs in obsidian/logseq.
keep it up, great work
Great job! Ive used Obsidian, Notion and my physical zettelkasten, and as you said, I remember more those notes that were handwritten. Where did you buy those nice black boxes? Greetings from Chile.
Try searching “vault notecard box storage 4x6” on Amazon. Should find it there.
Would you suggest this practice to someone who reads broadly for themselves or is this more of a project oriented approach. Love analog and wonder if this approach would help me better remember what I have read!!! Great videos.
Yes it’s more geared for output oriented people. Luhmann started his second one explicitly to help with his 30 year long project to provide a theoretical framework for how society works. It definitely will make you recall what you read better.
Oh great now I will never unsee the upside down binding. What am I supposed to do with this book now
I've done a quick research here..
There is 2 types of (boxes) that Niklas Luhmann used
The first box is (Literature Notes box)
The second box is (Permanent Notes box)
Based on what I've understand...
- The 1st box (LNs box) is for writing notes about (his ideas about other people ideas)
Example: ideas from book, web articles ...etc
And I believe your video is about notes that came from LNs box, so that's why we saw that 1 note containing more than 1 idea
- The 2nd box (PNs box) is for writing notes (his ideas in atomic fashion)
So basically 1 note containing only 1 idea HERE
Now... Sonke in his book said all notes in LNs and PNs are atomic (meaning 1 card containing 1 idea) but as I see in your video... that's not the case, we can see that clearly
Also Niklas used (copy - paste) to many quotes as you said
---
I've got some questions...
1. Can you tell me if the notes you showed on the video are coming from LNs or PNs box?
2. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of the points mentioned
Thank you
Literature notes are the most problematic part, especially coming from the book of Ahrens. I haven't thoroughly understood how to properly make LNs. I would appreciate it if Scott can show us how he makes LNs.
Those notes are his Permanent Notes.
His Literature notes can be found in the new video I just posted yesterday.
He had a main antinet Zettelkasten and a bibliography. What you’ve seen in this video are notes from his main antinet Zettelkasten. In his bibliography box, On the back of each bibliography card (with the author name and book title) he had literature notes written briefly on the backside vertically.
I have a general question. How long do you think one can get by on a stack of 3x5 cards and a shoebox? I’m looking at the price of the 4x6 file drawers you use. Very nice, but very pricey. If, say, I put in 2 serious hours a day, how long would it take before I’d actually feel constrained by the lack of larger cards and/or a better filing cabinet? And if you have a link to a video where you discuss using different size cards, I’d live to have that link. Thanks much.
I think I talk about that here: Three Types of Notes in an Antinet Zettelkasten (It’s Not What You Think)
th-cam.com/video/z6OQcvIbmMk/w-d-xo.html
I really like 3x5 cards and still use them in a lot of cases. 3x5” cards really focus one on being concise with their ideas which is a good thing. I didn’t start using 4x6” until a year ago after discovering that’s what Luhmann used. I find 4x6” cards to be best for Reflection notes; not for Reformulations and Excerpts.
@@scottscheper Thanks! That's very helpful.
is it a 3x5 or 4x6 notecard?
4x6
What's the difference between the index on top-left and top-right of your cards? Are both necessary?
Luhmann used the top left. I only included that as an example. My real card addresses are in the top right.
Is there a reason why the "a" after 17,11e is not in capital letters? And what a coincidence! I got the same monitor and macbook pro and setting it up just like yours!
I can’t recall why he did the non-capital a. Schmidt outlines this I believe in his paper. I don’t think there’s major significance just style preference.
@@scottscheper I am abit confused by what are the rules of using / or a letter after a number?
Ex: 1111/1E/11/1D
If it’s just branching out an idea or a thought, will alternating numbers and alphabets be suffice?
can i get the link of this academic paper
www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Niklas-Luhmann%E2%80%99s-Card-Index%3A-Thinking-Tool%2C-Machine-Schmidt/7755fed320c4bb1e3517a18abf0b7791e35375bb
“Yo Hanes” Schmidt 😂
Haha. Yeah I know. Yo hahnays is how it’s supposed to be pronounced or something. Whatever. I’m ‘merican.
@@scottscheper awesome videos and system though man! I’m impressed but alas mine is a bit more humble of a start. Any suggestions on how to use it for tech related things like programming and hacking?
I think you're conflating Luhmann's notes index with his "main" index when you say he didn't limit cards to one idea. He definitely did and even in the article you reference it states this was especially noticeable when he started producing his second collection of notes. "Particularly, these later notes were not simply excerpts. Rather, Luhmann jotted down only a few keywords in the course of his reading along with the respective page numbers [...]"
What you are displaying is one of his structured outlines (not a note). The structured outline would have come after the curation of notes. There's really two different things going on here. The filing system, which you're covering with the structural outline as the example, but before that is the curation of reference material, which you're not really covering.
I cover the literature notes in my most recent videos; however Luhmann did indeed write across multiple cards. Even in his second Zettelkasten and even excerpts of quotes. I’ll be publishing more on this in some articles I’ll be releasing and in my book.
Even within the structured outline, we have a case of Luhmann not sticking to one idea per card. When his thoughts would run out of room. In general he tried to ascribe to this notion but it was a guideline he broke often.
I don't think anyone is saying he never wrote multiple ideas on one card. I'll try to convey the point in a different way. The rule of one idea per card applies only to the permanent notes. These permanent notes had a very particular structure and quality and almost exclusively contained one idea per card. Even in the case where a single idea could be interpreted differently given a new context, the alternate context wasn't written on the same permanent note. It was recorded on a different note and he used a special type of reference to link these lateral ideas. The system isn't as useful without this feature.
Think about this. You have permanent note A containing a single idea and five links. You also have permanent note B containing 5 ideas and 10 links. It isn't apparent which note (which idea) has the most internal links. The usefulness breaks down pretty quick if each of those 10 links then connects to a note with multiple ideas.
Can you explain what you mean by the curation of reference material?
@encouraginglyauthentic43 The article from this video (linked below) talks a bit about it. Starting from the last paragraph on page 4 of the PDF.
To summarize: It's the process used to build out your permanent notes. The act of taking in information, distilling it down to a key idea, connecting it to other ideas, and filing it. This person, Scott, has a video where he shows his process. Scott's process is different from Luhmann's. I'm sure many people tailor their process to suit their needs and what the want to get out of their "second brain".
Take literature notes as an example. Luhmann's day was broken up where he would read and take literature notes in the morning and then in the evening he would format the ideas from those notes. Luhmann was typically reading from several sources throughout the day so this period at the end of a day allowed him to refine his ideas and thinking by linking to other ideas from other sources he was reading at the time or other related ideas that he may have already recorded. For Luhmann, this was the meat of the work.
Scott's process is different. He says in his literature note video he prefers to produce the final note right as he has the idea. I've tried both and think each has pros and cons. Today my process is closer to Scott's because I have a family now and I don't know that I'll have time each evening to format my ideas. I remember Scott made a statement to the effect of, "It's important to record the note when the idea is still fresh". If you don't take the time to format your short form recorded ideas, you might forget why it was important or how it connects to other ideas. So a pro is that you get closer to recording your real-time thinking. I think there are many benefits to Luhmann's method though: you don't have this start/stop feeling as you're reading, your ideas can sit in the back of your mind as you're going through the day, and I think writing your ideas out at the end of the day happens more fluidly. You just have to make sure you'll have the time at the end of the day.
pdfs.semanticscholar.org/88f8/fa9dfbc0c2b296758dd932b871917c5c775a.pdf
Haha, I agree that internet’s zettelkasten is not original, at all. It lose the whole methodology.
Seems fragile. Somebody breaks in, dumps your cards on the floor. You are toast.
🥸