#12 Tesla's Cathode Production Process // Breaking the Price Floor
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- What is Tesla's goal for their Cathode Production Process? Breaking the price floor for cathode materials. Mass produced products eventually asymptote at the materials cost. The point of the cathode factory is to lower the floor on that materials cost. This is part twelve of the Lithium Mine to Battery Line Series to break down and understand what was unveiled at Tesla Battery Day.
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Timeline
00:00 Introduction
00:57 Process Cost Savings
03:45 Mine to Nickel Sulfate
05:26 Metal Powder
07:23 Mine to Metal Powder
09:14 Tesla Nickel Mining?
10:39 CSTR
13:26 DPMG
13:56 Nano One's Process
16:14 Recap
17:07 Supply Chain
18:00 Summary
#BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Note: There seems to be a lot of confusion around Sulfide and Sulfate...
Nickel Sulfide is NiS
Nickel Sulfate is NiSO₄(H₂O)₆
Despite having sulfur in common, they are two different things.
Not really. The difference is Oxygen. Although you're showing a hydrated sulphate...
Regarding Tesla getting deeper into the supply chain what are your thoughts on this?
www.bbc.com/news/business-56288781
True but Jordan is really saying that as attractive as lightweight hydrogen may seem to electron heavy oxygen covalent attached oxygen and nickel dime types like sulfur when unbathed, smelly and somewhat expensive at a nickel per noble unit reacting where potentially weak forces prevail while Ion the other hand attach to all parts of the group with generous sharing of energetic bonds when possible if I fit in saving mater as a group with a true magic if periodic clinging. Called stable but energetic temperature can disrupt our sometimes ordered group. For the most part we conduct our magical power when electric voltage is currently asking for a room at the inn.
Really appreciating you using subscript numbers for chemical formulas.
This channel is a treasure
I think you are the first person on TH-cam to make me consider Patreon support.
Glad to hear it! It's what makes the channel possible. The TH-cam ad revenue is much lower for niche topics.
Silentsam7532 I really enjoy supporting this incredible analyst on Patreon.
Same
You’re battery chemistry, structure knowledge package is impressive.
*Your
I could not agree more.
You're right. He is battery chemistry.
@@SuperDraupnir your*
Jorden, I am a huge fan of your channel! Being a chemist myself, I admire the quality of your analyses of materials and process chemistry without losing sight on the bigger picture! The amount of research and work to put together these videos are immensely impressive and truly benefit anyone interested in these topics! Keep up the great work!
Thanks Mah! 👍
Northvolt already has an integrated cathode production and precursor production at their site in northern Sweden. Which will go online in the next 3-4 months. First such setup in the world with integrated precursor-cathode-cell factory. Complete with a circular water flow and hydro energy. And there is a smelter processing nickel and copper just 10 km from their site.
Northvolt was set up by former Tesla employees.......
Northvolt is also partly owned by VW, who is another Nano One partner.
Also happens to be just down the road from Talga 🤔
Like your post.
It is a pleasure to support yourself and people like you. Nice presentation with Rob Maurer.
Nice one Jordan. I wouldn't bet against Nanoone. Straight from the mine!
From what you are saying Western Australia which has vast nickel (and iron) reserves and in infinite supply of sun, could set up one of the cleanest nickel production processes - solar - hydrogen - ammonia (known process) - output nickel. Similar process could also be used to produce clean iron! Plus all metals required to produce batteries exist in WA.
Always an effortless thumbs up for Giesege. Takes a bit of focus to internalize, but worth it.
Nice to be reminded how "Battery Day" makes "Power Day" look like a child's school project...
That's pretty harsh. Because it's true.
Fantastic content couldn't give enough praise.
i would say the "materials" price floor also S-curve decreases over time as recycling takes over...then the cost of recycling materials becomes the price floor.
Exactly
Thank you for your annunciation. Your focus and time shine through.
We wait patiently for new content from you,always top quality!
Nano One has a Great video on youtube explaining their M2CAM process
I'd love to see a video on how silicone and solid state batteries may effect anode production in the future and the likelihood that artificial/natural graphite use will be phased out
Super informative! I will be watching this numerous times over the next few months to ensure I grasp it all. Excellent presentation! THANK YOU!
🙌🏼🤠
I‘m always confused when TH-cam sends me a „new“ video, that I already watched.
But I’ll show them and watch it again. 😏
This video came out today, so I doubt you've watched it before.
@@LarsPallesen Patreon's get early access. You can get it too, just 3$ a month.
@@21nickik Oh nooooh, now you spoiled it.
Lars and I could have started a fight about it and called us names and stuff. 😅
Thanks, Jordan! Excellent explanation as always!
Very informative, concise and well researched, thanks. 👍
Thanks for your deective work which explains many things not understood by other commentators.
Go Jordan! 🚀
Fantastic stuff Jordan. Brilliant sleuthing in fact. You make me feel like extreme bullishness on Tesla is justified. The fact that they care about environmental issues in their manufacturing processes also inspires confidence toward a cleaner and more efficient future.
Great job Jordan!
If you're like me and have been following the development of battery technology as far back as the 2001 *_Eestor Corporation_* debacle, than you already know how critically important this channel is.
You mentioned the notion of Tesla moving away from Nickel cathodes entirely, in the next ~10 years. I have two questions: 1.) Are you assuming LFP and/or Manganese would take over the whole fleet? Or is there something new that would join the fray? 2.) Do you think it's possible that they will continue with Nickel in some capacity, sourced from recycling retired packs? As Elon mentioned, "long term, new batteries will come from old batteries."
All-in-all, great channel, happy to be a Patreon supporter!
Proably >10 years. I'm just talking about replacing the Nickel with something like Sulfur or LiCl+C, not eliminating LFP. Nickel will continue. Too far into the future to go deep on at this point!
Outstanding and inspiring presentation. Thank you!
This is the most underrated channel. The animations are amazing! And there is lots of info.
Another great video well explained awsum
Insightful video, thank you Jordan.
I know much of this is said already, but these are fantastic videos with great research and put together in a clear presentation format.
I always appreciate it and it helps the algorithm!
So much interesting information.
Great info, thank you for doing this!
I was hoping you would share how big of space you thought this equipment might need, for instance at Austin battery building going in?
Note sure! Good question though
@@thelimitingfactor Perhaps some of the "extra acreage" at Austin facility will eventually hold more processing facilities to provide feedstock into the main battery factory. Look at ongoing construction at Giga Shanghai. The factory was "finished" last year and they've since built a whole 'nother factory and are still building more. I expect new buildings to be going up in Texas until at least 2024.
Enjoyed your chat with Rob @ Tesla Daily.
Subscribed.
Thanks man! Rob's great.
Awesome video really appreaciate the work. The clear and easy-to-follow flow makes it very easy to share to others too.
Tesla news possibly will be going quite for a while with all the work needed to be done.
Drew "Sand"baglino
Thanks for being the Sandy Munro of materials engineering! Would love to have a recommended reading list to better understand all of these processes.
I haven't found anything with reading, so I decided to create it. I read all the papers and boil it down. Everything I've seen on batteries is written for the general public or due people with a phd. Nothing in between.
If Tesla's batteries were as energy dense as your videos are information dense, we would all be flying around in personal VTOLs. Watching again. Thanks for the awesome content.
LOL
We will be flying around with hydrogen or biofuel Vtols....
Phenomenal content as usual, thank you Jordan!
Oh man! You’re so amazing at delivering this information. It calms my soul lol!
Lol! Glad to hear it.
If only the rest of the YT was so dedicated to anything except lipstick and cheap drama - we would be a different civilization
So what your saying is Jordan should start making videos on lipstick manufacturing and supply chain...
NB: the a in 'acqui-hire' (acquisition) is like the a in apple. Aqueous is also most typically said with a long a.
Interesting tesla just signed up to be "technical and industrial partnership" with the new Caledonia mine
Excellent
This content is great. I suggest going slower on some of the more technical slides so it becomes easier to follow.
Who's here because of Jordon's interview on Tesla Daily?
No, but it was cool to see him there! Hope it gets him more notice!
Me, but I'm subscribed to Jordan's channel too
Fascinating 🖖🏼
Hi Jordan, great video as always. Can we please request an updated Nano One video?
Thanks!
I wish I had time. There's really room for another two to three channels that do what I do.
I am proud to patreon this content. If you are not a supporter get right on it! Where are you going to get this quality of content!
Same here 😎👍👍
Bear in mind that ammonia, while harmful in large amounts, it is _harmless_ in small amounts. Our bodies (and all mammals I believe) have mechanisms to rid ourselves of ammonia relatively quickly. Also we have enormous sensitivity to the smell of ammonia and even have a specific waking reflex to it. Ammonia is safer than it sounds.
Seems like NNO should be included in the title given the extensive compare/contrast done vs Tesla
I think the compound NaCl is much easier to transport than pure Na 😉
Thanks for the great content. Do you think the rolling process for Tesla Cells could result in tiny compression cracks in the dry material? I found the bank note analogy at VW Power day vs the bottling plant at Tesla Battery day interesting, did you pick up on that?
NAh, DBE is much more durable than wet slurry
Hi Jordan. Awesome video as usual.
Off topic. Most of us are focused on new battery tech. But before Tesla purchased Maxwell I recall one of their specialty was in supercapitors. Haven’t heard much since.
I always thought a good use for them could be as a limited launch or turbo boost.
WithTesla new battery chemistry and sizes does that make supercapacitors redundant now or is this something worth a deep dive episode down the road.??
Keep up the great work!
Yup! In my view supercaps are redundant for vehicles
Tesla has partnered on the New Caledonia mine, so maybe they will use this mine as a way to get their toes into Ni mining already
How about researching silver in Tesla's products. Alot of silver bugs keep claiming that silver is used a lot in electric cars but I wonder how much.
Hey Jordan, loving the content and analysis - as usual.
Any chance you could look into a particular process for our better understanding. There is a company (Altech Chemicals Limited) that is piloting a high purity alumina (HPA) coating for lithium batteries. I haven't seen it picked up by anyone on the youtubes yet.. wondering if you could shed some light on the process and if it's something the might be interesting looking to the future?
Thanks in advance!
Alumina coatings aren't new and they were tested in Dahn's lab, along with with Titanium coatings. Its usefulness depends on the chemistry of the rest of the battery, due to things like chemical 'cross-talk'.
Not worth looking into from my perspectivel. I'm sure it's probably interesting, but there are bigger fish to fry.
@@thelimitingfactor Roger that - thanks for the reply. Looking forward to the next fish!
In CSTR, I read from some sources that NaOH and NH3 are used? Not Na2CO3? Can you give the link to CSTR picture source?
I got it from a Novonix document, but I forget which one. There are at least a couple ways to do CSTR for high nickel cathodes, so the cocktail will vary.
Great video, as always. Also learn a lot from the people in the comments. Question, have you been following the progress of Magnis Technologies and their quick charge battery? They seem to have put together a smart team but ability to execute is a big ?.
Every company is claiming fast charge. It's 'easy' and will slowly roll out to all vehicles.
A great example of how being "green" doesn't have to cost more. Often, it can cost less through reduction of waste and recycling.
You do have a very impressive understanding of battery tech. If I could ask you two questions it would be why is Tesla still using nickel based batteries in stationary storage, instead of using longer lasting iron in stationary and higher density nickel in mobile.
The second would be similar. Should Tesla be looking into nonbattery storage solutions for grid scale storage in order to maintain material for automotive and truck batteries. Example, if boring company could perfect a machine that dug vertical shafts instead of horizontal they could build gravity electric storage systems, thereby leaving more battery material for transportation.
There are a number of possible reasons: LFP is a new up and comer, they can't just flick a switch. There are patents that surround LFP, some of which are coming up soon. Their partner is Pana, which isn't big into LFP.
No, they shouldn't be. The battery opportunity is the biggest segment of the market. They are short on engineers for batteries, so why spread them out over completely different technologies. There are more reasons than that, but the other explanations would take more time.
The year is 2059... Jordan puts out part 14467 of the Battery day followup videos... now its a longer running series than Young and the Restless :)
lmfao
My Mother made Cool-aid using the same CSTR method.
🤣
@@thelimitingfactor Great show Brother! Thank you for all your tireless work! And it was great to see you team up with Tesla Daily! Go Morgan!
Nano One + Tesla would be a real chocolate peanut butter moment for my portfolio :)
😂
If I had money I would be a patreon supporter.
What do you think about the deal on the New Caledonia deal?
So far it appears to be just advice. That's some dirty Nickel. It will take some effort to make it work.
Nano one- nnomf cheap down here
Jordan, if Tesla were using Nano One's process wouldn't they get out of it a single crystal cathode? And we know they aren't using single crystal, right?
If we assume that Tesla's image is an image of what they intend to use in their batteries: Correct!
It's also worth noting that although Nano One calls their product single crystal, it often looks like a conglomerate of single crystals...like a weird hybrid of single and poly. I need to do a proper interview with Dan Blondal.
Not on this topic but hope you can answer this question, is there a limit of ingredients in the world for LFP batteries??
The limit is how quickly we can permit mines
What companies are expected to fill Tesla's graphite needs?
Is Tesla expected to use graphite suppliers close to their battery plants? For example, maybe Nouveau Monde Graphite for America and Talga for Europe?
Thank you
No clue! I hope Nouveau and Talga. I like both companies, but I'm still relatively new to mining stocks and we are in an unpredented era.
You forget to mention that lithium is not just used for battery production so those companies are producing lithium solutions for very different applications.
Not forgotten, I just have to draw the boundaries somewhere. I could do a 20 part series on lithium alone
Hi Jordan, I've just recently found your channel, have been devouring the content you produced and this is the first video I've got a question on - do you really believe Tesla would go into mining materials themselves with companies in the likes of Redwood Materials and American Battery Metals achieving such high yields from recycling the existing batteries? I would consider it far more likely for Tesla to either partner with such companies or start doing it themselves than start mining materials. I'm curious about your thought process on this one, thanks!
Yes, I do. It will be a 10 years before recycled materials come back in significant volume. 20 years before it becomes close to being a self-sustaining loop. This is because electric vehicles last 10-20 years. Tesla will need recyling for scrap that comes off the 4680 line, they may as well get into recycling too because they'll have robotaxis and lease vehicles coming back. It will be a closed loop and very large scale. Why outsource the margins? That's the best I can do in the comments section. This is a 1 hour topic.
@@thelimitingfactor Appreciate the reply! Wouldn't the vast amount of already existing electronic devices suffice, at least to some degree, for recycling to prove significant enough even today? Or are these just not feasible to be recycled for materials that would be usable for car batteries? I don't want to argue it as a point, as I haven't done proper research on this topic, and sure enough, your reasoning seems sound, just wanted to follow up as the question just came to mind. I hope you manage to explore the topic in the future video then!
Fascinating as always. Tesla China is localising supplies so no surprise USA would do the same. No need to mention it, it's common sense.
The Solvent Separation techniques work for complex chemicals, could Liquid Metal Battery Molten Salt charge and discharge cycles be applied to Refineries of these Elements? Ie ask Prof Donald Sadoway's team at Ambri.
Industrial Electricity costs are everything, so Onsite Generation is critical.
Interesting question!
wow
Your graph @time 2:35 is misleading in that it implies manufacturing costs approach material costs. While I agree that manufacturing costs tend to decrease over time, there is a fixed component that is much greater than material costs. So the "asymptote line" should be much higher than the material cost line that you show.
I wouldn't say 'much' higher, but probably higher. As per the comments below the title - it was meant to be illustrative. The key point is the concept, not the actual data. Regardless, as a result of number of improvements not listed in this video I do expect us to hit the $30/kwh at the pack level shown in the image.
I watch this as i walk through the cathode building being built 😂
🤣💕
Straight forward question. In the next 10 years will silicon replace graphite in most cation/anion batteries both in and out of the EV industry? Been reading about its attributes and they appear to be inevitable. Your thoughts.
I know you've discussed this in prior videos, but I can't seem to locate those videos. Thx.
It's covered in the 'disrupting silicon anodes' video
@@thelimitingfactor Thx.
10 yrs is a long time and battery technology is changing rapidly. My prediction is that Li-metal of anode-free technologies will dominate. These are already emerging and offer much higher energy density than silicon.
I’m chasing the Nanoone One-pot process. It uses a gas injection to grow single crystals, does anyone know what the gas is?
@@xlargetophat no, but I’m thinking it’s oxygen
what about New Caledonia nickel mine that Tesla will be involved in?
Too early stage to say. In its current state, it's dirty an uneconomical. It would require some serious inputs to make it work.
deeeep dive 👏🏻
👌
You really need to drop a mic or something at the end of your videos. ;)
do you know how feasible it would be to recycle the batteries for their minerals so we don’t have to rely on mining as much?
Not so much right now, but that should change in the next 5 years. It will be 10 years before it makes an actual impact though and another 10-20 years after that before the bulk of materials are recycled.
@@thelimitingfactor cool. Also, do you know if the recycling process would create much greenhouse gas emissions? (less emissions than the from scratch process obviously)
I suspect this is one reason that Tesla got involved with the nickel mine in New Caledonia: not just to secure nickel, but to have their say in how the mine ships the product to them. This way they can streamline the supply end and tailor it for their battery production.
Uhm wrong, the Nickel from new caledonia is shaped to China for further processing and/or to france since they are still not independent from them..... the Nickel production still causes alot of pollution and they mostly run on coal/diesel since the renewable can't match it.
@@alanmay7929 Perhaps Tesla is trying to help improve that somehow?
Smoking game. Take a hit every time this guy says "process" 16:20 I blew out a lung
LOL, yeah
@@thelimitingfactor love the vid bro!
Does anyone know the voltage and capacity of a single 4680 (volts/ mAh) battery cell yet?
I didn't hear a "in the next video...". Did I miss it? Tesla Acid-Free Lithium Extraction Process?
Yeah, that's next. Forgot to add it!
@@thelimitingfactor Stellar!
@@thelimitingfactor I was reading an article about this from September and as they discussed a heavy sodium process, I started to think about spinning sodium with clay and if they can get the lithium to bind to the sodium, but then how to separate. But then I remembered that sodium has a lower melting point than lithium, so maybe that's it. So excited for this video and to hear what you've learned about this crazy thing nobody thought was possible or at least not plausible.
[Eyes narrow]
I am sorry but this is very condensed information .watching it again ..
lol, yeah, I take the firehose approach
@@thelimitingfactor Jordan, I do think you could experiment with adding pauses for each new slide with text. It’s impossible to read and listen at the same time. I always end up rewinding like some kind of eighties hip-hop DJ.
Thanks for your great work.
LFP?
what is tesla battery top elements by weight, lithium, nickel, and carbon (graphite)? or is cobalt in top 3?
Nickel, Graphite, Lithium
@@thelimitingfactor thank you
Even when I don't understand what he's talking about I still like what Jordan is doing here. No one else goes this much in depth with Tesla's next gen battery technology. No one can accuse Jordan of talking down to his audience :-)
Please guys, let's all support Jordans work! Visit Patreon 😎👍👍💪
Huh, it seems that these "Tesla" guys are pretty clever
Set brain to "???????"
Now if only the hat came in other than Black.
Mined and processed with fossil fuels
The busy colt dewailly hum because judo extraorally snore beside a unkempt goal. warm, serious kenya