Driver Fitting for Negative Angle of Attack
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txg.ca - See how to optimize your driver for distance and accuracy when your swing delivery has a negative angle of attack.
Filmed at: Tour Experience Golf
Custom Golf Club Fitting Studio - Toronto, Canada
Featuring: Ian Fraser & Matt Blois
/ theofficialtxg
Getting a true fitting centered around my swing without feeling like I am at a used car lot is difficult. Wished y'all were here in N. Texas. Great video.
This has always been me. I have a top end of the bag fitting locally here Saturday, I hope my fitter can find something like this for me. I will be remembering what you did here Ian and suggest some of this if my fitter can't figure me out.
Great video guys, love this topic. Matt seemed considerably more accurate hitting down compared to his normal swing when he is hitting up. Comes down to what the golfer is looking for, chasing distance might potentially lower your accuracy but chasing accuracy might potentially lower your total distance.
Ian and Matt are the best. they have videos for all of my questions.
Fascinating for someone who has a negative angle of attack even though slowly improving and working on that. My experience just testing different heads and shafts on an open range was much the same - your lightbulb anecdote- as I found the M3 and the cobra f8 much better than others (like the ping g400 or roque) and also with different shafts. Of those I tried I found that the cobra f8 (did not try the f8+) and an evenflow blue shaft gave me (at that time with an even higher negative angle of attack) better distance, and less dispersion and better launch angle and control ability. Did not dial it in further and have never tried the GD shafts but have tried also with reasonable effect the oban shafts. Keen to see what TPT would do to the same viz greater stability.
What's so amazing to me as a higher handicap senior is Matt's ability to manipulate the club. I don't know my angle of attack but I do know I hit slightly up. If I do hit the occasional one down, it's not because I "think" to do that. I usually hit the middle to a draw but have to really make a commitment to hit the ball to the right (say a dogleg right); and that doesn't happen all the time at will. Again, Matt is just amazingly talented!
Would love if you guys would do this fitting again
You guys would be a game changer for me. I hit slightly down a degree or so normally and have been struggling to find a good driver fit. Very frustrating. Noone around my area is close to fitting like you guys. We may have to end up having a long distance relationship if I can't get any help where I live.
Really enjoy your Channel guys. Haven’t commented in a while but still watching. Definitely a lightbulb here on this one. Of course, wouldn’t be the first time watching you guys.
Reminds me of the old taylormade ‘ weight forward, loft up’ campaign... great job guys .. thank you 😉🏌️⛳️🍻
You guys never cease to amaze me. Great video.
really wish there was somewhere in Scotland that could offer this sort of fitting experience. Been to several places and always feel the fitter is pushing one type of make of shaft onto me. Last iron fitting it was KBS shafts only being pushed , mentioned aerotech and UST Mamiyma shafts as was told they aren't as good as steel!
Nice to see Adam Scott making a run.
moved into a m 2 2017 12 deg with black tie 60 x flex made a big difference to disbursement and flight also spin links played as home course stay over it and don't sit back when in to wind good combination 5 handicap pro v1 hope this may help best site guys
Finally some cobra love!!
Great video I've just learnt I hit 1 or 2 down and the odd 0 attack on the ball but still getting 280 290 carry driver is a 9.5 taylormade r9 supertri with adila rip 7.0 2.5 tip shaft launch is 12 to 15 degs
Great stuff as usual guys. I am a hit up on it fella. If i want to hit it lower I tend to tee it lower, put it back in the stance and try for a draw.....
Really love your channel guys, I am looking for a new driver myself and don't really have a fitting place like you guys have so i am have been taking notes about optimal lofts, angles and speeds to help me pick a club myself, i have actually tried the subzero and Ping g400 sft and really like both, was more consistent with the ping and longer with the subzero. keep the great content coming, wish you guys were in the states haha.
How come you didn’t try one of those shafts in the g400 lst? Or is the ping g400 not a good head for someone with a negative angle of attack??
Well for a mid handicapper like me that spends way too much time on launch monitors at the range ,I really should look at angle of attack ,never really asked about it ,always more concerned about speed and spin . Thats it now now ,going to have to test this ,i use the Titliiest 917 d2 9.5 head with Diamana B series 60 x playing at 44.5 in length ,I get good height with around 2500 spin .Only negative thing is we use Srixon black band range balls ,there not too bad ,but not quite as long as proper golf balls .I,m hoping I hit up on the ball slightly ,Very interesting video once again guys .
Damn interesting video. I myself hit down on the ball and this really opening my eyes to understanding why I get the limited carry that I do. Thanks guys!
No problem Stephen. Hope this helps guide you towards some solutions.
I bomb my 8° rogue subzero in the “easy “ weights setting sky high and no spin about 230 m carry whit my new upwards swing .
Whit my old downward swing I hit low it and hard spinning carry 210 m whit a 10,5°xr16 driver so the swing does matter a lot thanks guys for opening my eyes
Scheduled a driver fitting for Tuesday - they have a gc quad and everything!
:)
My own experience is with a negative angle of attack I have much higher spin rate, compared to when when having a positive angle of attack. This is something I have been working on with my pro. My spin numbers have been dropping when the angle of attack has changed from negative to positive.
Would love to see an updated test of this! I went to a fitting at cool clubs recently and when hitting driver on trackman I was between 0 and -1.5 AOA.
Mav SZ and Sim max both seemed to be best for me. My club path and face angle with MAV SZ on avg was -.7 and -.2. While with Sim max is was .4 and -.3 on avg. Also hit the g410 but those numbers seemed to deviate more.
I have a terrible forward shaft lean at address causing a negative angle of attack and high strikes off the face with a tendency to sky it. I use a Cobra F8 with Evenflow blue stiff and only hit it 240-260 while I carry my 7 iron 175. The best I’ve ever hit a driver is my old Cobra SZ400 with a Saber Tour Vector 75....wish I could get back to that swing and a similar shaft.
I struggle with a hook miss to the left. I currently play with a 9.5 degree and open face by 1 degree with a Xstiff Rouge shaft. I have slight neg angle of attack as well. Would a good starting place for me be a higher degree head and less stiff shaft. Will schedule a fitting next time I travel to Buffalo. Thanks for all the info
I am 65 and have a 4.0 index. I can still carry it about 235 with about a 3-4 degree negative attack angle. A close friend of mine who's 70 tilts like crazy and can hit up on it. He can hit it farther than me, but when he can't get turned he hits these disastrous shots way right with both his driver and his irons.
Whenever I try to hit up on it, I am wildly inconsistent. I can sometimes get it to +1.0 on Track Man, but, incredibly, whenever I hit driver in the center, it does way right. I guess I just cannot get turned properly when I am tilted more or if I move the driver way up in my stance.
I have this issue. 125mph swing speed but negative attack angle. Very hard trying to match things up to get the ball in the air. I usually just tee off with 3 wood or 2H.
Recently had a try with the g425 10.5 regular shaft I'm an 18 handicapper my numbers were the following, swing speed average 85 to 90 mph, 3.5down ,spin 1500 average ,carry averages200 , to 210 , would you recommend lofting up to increase carry distance and increase ball spin ,or should I take lessons to improve my driver delivery ,thanks
Can you do a video on how much more accurate zeroing out the club path is with a driver compared to being +4 or even -4.
Hi guys prob the best fitting video ive ever seen for the driver bar none as huge amount of amateurs have these swing characteristics inclyding myself. I have a couple if questions for Ian if you have the time to answer that would be great. Did you have the f8+ lofted up to the 11° draw setting and the cg at the front ?
I currently play an 2017 M2 With hzrds red shaft im wondering what settings if any on it would be the closest to the way you have f8 set up.
Also for links golf in ireland should I be looking for a slightly lower launch angle of 9 or 10 degrees snd whars the best way to achieve this
Loveyour channel btw the level of knowledge is insane
Sorry for the long message 🙄
Perfect test to see if the Left Dash Pro V1xwould help even more with these combos or have similar results from the shaft and head changes. 👍 I'm a slightly downward striker excited to see the Left Dash results. Love Pro V1x but spins just a little too much with driver and around greens.
Was fitted today at a Cobra fitting day ,I've got the F7 but the F8 was miles better and i hit slightly down on it .
I just experienced this in a fitting. I need 13* loft and a low launch/stiff shaft. It is such a strange combo, but I gained 20 yards over my poor combo I started with in the LTD going to the F9 with the right shafts.
I really want to fix the AoA swing flaw, as playing a ladies style head is a real blow to the ego.
Any advise for someone using a Titleist 917 D2 with those swing characteristics
Awesome content as always. Keep up the good work.
whats weird about lead deflection and loft is when you see slow motion on golf channel you see the shaft almost at a crescent moon type shape or a C type shape where the head is almost where the hands are at delivery not just the shaft bending at the tip forward or backward...interesting for sure. would be cool to do some slow motion swing analysis with you guys and see what Ian says about it since hes so knowledgeable.
We're planning to rent a proper high speed camera in the future that eliminates that distortion and would show how the shaft is actually bending. That combined with the Gears system we have coming will let us show some pretty cool stuff!
Impressed with performance and outcome - also in relation to your professional skills and experience.
Guess it will be awesome with the swing robot arrives as you can design various types of swing speeds and issues. Iron Byron is doing a great job stepping outside his normal path.
Another great vid and proves the point of getting fit and the difference it can make :) .
good video guys, really enjoy the content. Always a new subject touched on. love it. I have to use a low loft driver or i spin way too much. too much positive angle???
Lots of factors possible: could be the head design of the driver you're using, or the amount of ball speed you're producing, contact point, etc. Unlikely that too positive an angle would cause excess spin, generally those that hit up on the driver are lower spin players.
Loved the video. What loft was the cobra set at ?
10.5º
Super interest edto take this concept out on the course, Have the 9.5 M3 with HZRDS Black 6.5 in the 8.75* setting weights all the way back and carry it about 260 right now(although don't know my angle of attack but my ball flight says I'm hit that SQUEEZY 5 yard fade) with a 110 mph club speed, will give a go with the 9.5 or 10.25 setting weights forward and see what the flight and carry distance is. Good Stuff guys.
110 swing speed = approx. 162 ball speed.
@ 17 Degrees launch and 2100rpm spin is 282 carry according to Flightscope's Online Launch monitor - flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/
To get your current 260 carry with that club head speed with a little fade, you are in the zone of ( 10 Degrees launch, 4400rpms spin)
Fancy :)
Just wish there was somewhere I could fart around on a Launch Monitor to "crunch" the numbers. I could go to golf galaxy, but I don't trust the big box stores
They will definitely give you some useful feedback and you should go and do it and see if the 10Degree launch and 4000spin is the zone you are hitting it - my guess is that it is as that is exactly what I use to do - I have an M2 with a Haz Black 6.5 cut to 44.5" driver. I hit the range for 5 days and worked very hard on trying to see if I could develop a new style driver swing (I have also been to TXG as they are local to me for a gapping session and a practice session to see what I was doing). It took me a few days on the range to figure out for me how to do this because it is very different. I tee the ball high, I had to really learn how to hit from in to out, keep my head back - and when you hit it like this it is extremely obvious on the range because for me my carry went from a trap fade like yours at 245-250 yard carry to a couple yard high knuckleball draw at 270-275 - just like in Matt & Ian's previous video. It took me 5 days to re-build my alignment setup so I knew where to ball would be starting and finishing, and I can still lose one right, but it definitely flies way further.
Yeah, when its a wide open fairway on a par 5 and I want to let one rip I tee it about a half a ball higher than normal(normal for be is about 1 ball high) AND hit the big high draw...This used to be my stock shot but as I've begun to play more tournament golf I've had to find a fairway finder shot and that's what I have now. When I hit the "Rory Mac" high Draw I carry it about 280 and most definitely rolls out better too.
Txg in ur opinion what is a good forgiving driving iron as I’m thinking about getting one since I don’t get on with hybrids to well
Look at Ping's offering for a forgiving driving iron: ping.com/clubs/crossovers/g400
Great vid lads! I’m not sure I think I’m on the opposite end...my drivers are much higher than most and little role. I’ve never been on a monitor to know what my numbers are
Would be worth checking out your numbers Alex, but sounds like you would benefit from either less loft or a driver with a more forward CG location.
Yes need to get round to doing that! Currently got a ping G25 10.5. It’s at its - setting but I’m not sure that makes much difference.
djjazzyjeff123 a few people have told me that, I’d just like to see to go lower and more penetrating. My 3W can go the same distance with a totally different flight! I just want the Driver to do the same. I think some time on a monitor required
what could you do setup wise if due to physical limitations you hit 5 down on a driver?
Can you repeat this with modern equipment? Its beem 5 years
I don't think AOA tells the whole story, I think dynamic loft has to be looked at as well. Cause two swings could both hit- say 2 degrees down on it- and if one has the shaft the leaning forward at impact it would need a much higher lofted driver / higher cg / higher spin to optimize results as compared to that same 2 degrees of negative AOA with having the shaft leaning away from the target at impact. Cause I think launch angle and spin can change drastically within the same AOA. Interesting stuff as always guys.
Yup for sure, shaft lean is a factor as well in determining dynamic loft
AOA isn't the whole story Judah it's the topic. There are way more variables being taken into account here than the title suggests. Our aim here though is to give a little help to the guys and gals that are a little steep. By showing them how to balance AOA, Dy Loft and impact location you can still maximize your output. Appreciate you thinking about he topic in such detail, it only helps others to understand the factors involved.
I know this is an old video and such but I struggle with a lower AOA at - 1.5 working on getting to 0 (sometimes) but I'm extremely spinny 3200 but when I do get those 2500 I carry close to 300 or more with 122 ch. Tried so much to get spin down....
this 🎥 was made for me!!!
Is there a video showing different flex in iron shafts and how that can affect ball flight and turf interaction such as a reg v. x stiff with Matt?
Not yet but something we can do in the future
Spin loft and delivered loft are the most influential in any driver. As Matt is so instinctively good he can hit down and control his spin contrary to strike, most players that get steep generally spin it allot more and increasing loft with the idea to increase launch can do more harm in increasing there spin loft. Brooks is negative -3.7 according to trackman published number and if you seen him and Scotty play in the final of the pga round scotty was out driving him as well. Scotty looks positive onto the ball or close and he is definitely longer than Rosie.
He's not longer than Rose. I have both of there TM numbers, like I said Adam is slightly more neg on his AOA than Rosey. Delivered loft is part of spin loft, they are not separate entities. Spin Loft, Impact Location and CG are the primary factors at play here.
I understand that delivered loft is part of spin loft, my point is Matt can control what loft he desires through ability. Allot of club golfers that produce a negative AoA are more to the extreme -4/-5 and they can not instinctively alter this. A video that best illustrates this is one of your own on hitting up on the driver. Change the AoA to a reasonable compromise and a fitted driver will produce even more gains.
Nice, now Matt can prepare for The Open 2019 with that fitted F8+ 😆 About gears, do you have an ETA ?
Hoping to get our installation of Gears booked for the next few months, we want to have the creator of the system visit us for the installation and film some videos with him so that may push our scheduling back a bit.
Would -1 degree attack angle on trackman still be negative attack angle on gc quad. I remember you saying there was a discrepancy on some club data between the 2.
-1 on trackman would be pretty close to level on GC Quad
Crazy how far technology has come. I always was told that if you hit down that was the kiss of death so I went through the painstaking process of changing my delivery. All is well that ends well but sheesh this would have been much simpler. Also, what loft driver heads was Matt using?
9º in the Ping, and 10.5º in the others
I would’ve liked to see you slide the weights all the way forward on the TM3
Cobra going to be wiring money to TXG - great video
😆
It is really neat to see this exact type of result. It sort of allows 'everyone' who doesn't want to change their 3wood teed up swing (2 degrees negative angle of attack / trap draw type approach) to still benefit. I wish I would have know this because after I watched your last video, I went out and spent 5 days at the range figuring out my New Modern Hit 5 Degrees up on the Ball Driver Swing (and I did gain at least 20 yards carry so thank you). It would have been far easier to throw money at the TXG Old Man Cobra Illegal Driver Swing and just walked out like a champ with 20 extra yards.
Vote for golf cheating video of the year award.
Great vid 👍👍👍
But can you carry it 300yards with 161 ball speed?
Possibly if you had very high launch and very low spin
Could you please explain the ball flight differences(launch/spin) between a driver head with a forward CG and one with a rear CG. I guess it would be like moving the two weights in an M3 from the full front position to the two rear positions or comparing the new Cobras(forward CG) to the Ping G400s rear CG with the weight screw at the back. What is the science behind the differences? Of course this might take a whole new video to explain, ha-ha.
I ask(and not the only reason) because Tiger apparently just increased his driver loft by 1* and moved the M3 weights all the way to the front position, someone mentioned it's to increase the spin and to get more launch to hit more fairways.
Rear CG would launch and spin more than forward CG. Tiger is likely increasing the loft and moving the weights forward to get more launch angle via the loft, while keeping the spin low via the weights, probably with the goal of hitting it a bit farther.
Thanks for your reply. So all things being equal, a 10* rear CG is not equal to a 10* forward CG head for launch or spin. So in that case would a 11* forward CG be equal to the 10* rear CG in as far as launch is concerned, as well as having close to the same spin?
Yes to the first part. For the second, you would use that 11º head to raise the launch angle with loft, but the forward CG would ideally keep the spin down as low even potentially lower than the 10º rear CG head. All theory of course, more in this video as well in case you missed it: th-cam.com/video/NIfTAA8D_eY/w-d-xo.html
Thanks I'll have a watch of the video.
Matt > Robot tester
Doesn't Koepka swing downwards with driver (-3,7 according to blog.trackmangolf.com/brooks-koepka-winner-us-open-2017/) Seems to be with Nike driver..
Matt just found his stinger shot.....
Koepka hits miles down on it and rips it out there
isnt he hitting -0.5 degree?
I just need to get that driver fitting. I hit my driver to the moon. Not like it spins up too high, just launches high and climbs to somewhere around 32,000 ft
HAHAHA!!!! Air Titleist cruising at an altitude of 32,000ft!!
Ian Fraser It might not be the most efficient ball flight but it sure does impress the old folks on the course when they see a ball fly above head height 😂
How are the weights set in the M3?