The tangs, you call a locating tabs, are NOT there to stop the bearings from spinning. They are there for assembly purposes. The outside diameter of the bearing is bigger than the big end of the rod. Then the cap is bolted down there is a slight crush to the bearing which is what holds the bearing in place once the engine is assembled. In fact there are many rods out there with no 'locating tabs' at all.
You are correct. It is a common misconception that the locator tabs keep journal bearings from spinning, even among pro mechanics. The tabs are there simply for installation ease. As a real world example, I built a Ford FE V8 and had to use main journal bearings from a Cleveland which have the tabs in the wrong location so I filed off the tabs. The result is a great running engine with no spun bearings. You will spin a bearing if you lose oil flow.
you only need 30 sec of warm up and just drive it normally until the oil temp reaches normal. Problem is ppl start their car and bonce the rev limiter...
Wow that was done with the front subframe still attached! I can't imagine someone doing something like this without a lift. And for those wondering, "warm up the car" simply means drive it easily under 3K-4K RPM until the oil gets up to operating temperature. It doesn't mean to start the car and let it sit there for 5 or 10 minutes or more. That's just wasteful and extends the time required to get the car up to temp. Just drive it easily and it will get up to temp much sooner.
Yeah you are right about the warm up procedure... Most people don't read the manual. I have read about a lot of people who think they are doing good by leaving it on in their garage for 10-15 minutes. Idle is not good for these engines.
@@00302998 Around 210 Fahrenheit should be around where the temp sits. I think they say 190-240 is okay, but I have never got my temps near 240 even with a stage 3 evolve tune and driving the doors off. These are just numbers from the top of my head they aren't exact.
@@Trajectory-n9w gotcha, my technique is to drive it slow until the REV limiter reduces to the optimal range (the orange and yellow thing on the RPM dial). I still drive slow until she's around 150 or so - i guess I should stretch it out a bit more and wait before going higher on the RPM's
This is really informative about the nature of the problem! However, no one seems to present the prevalence of engine failures from this issue-the actual number of cars affected-so we can understand the scope of the problem.
Why do you think that soooo many in the auto business -knowledgeable people-go out of their way to explain that you ***don’t*** need to warm up your engine? I always do. Just the N52 that I have in 2 cars, I let it idle for 5 minutes then drive it slowly in lower gears, keeping revs below 3,000, for 10 minutes. I hope that this will pay off.
no you don't need to let the car sit and idle for many minutes before driving. You DO need to drive the car fairly slowly and easily for the first few minutes, as that will get the engine up to operating temperature faster than just letting it sit there and idle. However if this problem still happens even just driving it easy for the first few minutes, then the OEM oil spec is too thick at cold startup.
@@330driver330 Actually I would say - Cold Start, Short Trips reving that glorious V8 and initial owners who were just not aware of the Rod Bearing Issue as it had not spread then is probably the greatest contributor.
Awesome. Love the time lapse and music. These are perfect for someone who is interested in how you do repairs but have no expertise, time or tools to do it ourselves. Thank You for posting
why now that you saw you will fix it alone in you house? come on men...bmw-audi should be in the court paying retarded money back to owners..when 40.000km m3 are in mechanic for 4.000 euro fixes...demand you pay you need to demand..they are getting away with very bad things because of brainwashed zombis...status freaks.....the non reliable cars should be the cheapest ones....what the fuck the shit cars to be expensive..but reliable ones the cheapest
@@EvolveAutomotive Why don t you use aftermarket rod bearings, those with "Designed to address and fix the rod bearing clearance issue" by adding an extra 0.0005? A lot of tuners sell kits that addresses both material quality and tolerances.They are from 500 to 800 Euros, so not a big difference.
@@commantrosexetlos4700 every car has it's issues, reliable cars are not blessed with great handling and speed, they don't use expensive lighter alloys. If you want a car to run errands and commute, don't buy a performance vehicle. I can drive my Ford Focus like a rally car, bumpy city roads don't bother it, used my BMW to commute for 4 months, the suspension and tires took a beating on the crappy roads. Since I love my BMW I accept that I have to pay to play, my solution is to have a second car that is more reliable to share the workload.
I just sold my e92 M3. BMW should have addressed this for their customers. This should not be considered maintenance, and its just par for the course for BMW. I love them but it seems every engine they build has some sort of achilles heel.
@@Mr.Hashira NO shit. Especially when you lease an 2017 M240i and the dealer charges $2,200 to replace the radiator due to a leak so small that you need a 20X ZOOM to see it. Sorry BMW, but i'll stay with my trusted 3.0TFSI audi.
The locating tabs do not wear, they locate the bearings laterally in their housings and protrude into a slot in the rod or big end cap so that is away from the crankshaft journal. Only if the bearing picks up on the crank journal and rotates can the tab be pushed back into the bearing. The bearings when fitted into the rod and the cap protrude slightly so that when the cap is torqued down the shell edges meet and amount of crush is created which firmly locates the shell bearings by friction within the big end housing. Aside from that detail this is an excellent video.
Great description! Tabless bearing shells have been around for years, the tab doesn't stop the shell rotating. Land Rover 2.7 TDCi engines have a bad rep for spinning bearings, people blame the tabless design but its more likely low oil level and poor tolerances that do it!
I have ground off the locating tabs(tangs) on the Honda bearings( reason being b16 bearings used on d16 engine) and they don't spin. I think BMW bearings spun because of the clearance ( tolerance is different) and the crank touching the bearings. Not because of the locating tabs. Locating means just that . Locating. Bearing crush ensures bearing is pressed against the rods. Again 'tolerance' is not correct word.
Very nice contribution thx! Must be said that the overall failure rate is below 1%, most at pre-2010 cars and the result of poor maintenace of hard driving in cold start modes.. happy to own a well maintained 2010 E90 myself!:)
In most Bmw M's you should always look for their weakness. I recently purchased an F80 M3 and I wasn't aware that the crank hubs spin in this cars at any given time... So there for I replaced it with a MAX PSI one so I can have a peace of mind when I want to add more power or go on long distance drives. I will be uploading a full review video of the entire process next week in my channel. Subscribe if you love M's or just cars period.
I don't understand all these comments of "it's a race motor, you need to warm it up first!" as if that's somehow different from the recommended procedure for every car ever made ever. Want your engine to last? Don't floor it when it's cold! All the time in parking lots I hear cars, mostly small to mid-size SUV's that sound like they're about to launch a rod through the block. Guarantee you the person has a lead foot even from the first cold startup every day. I daily drive a 94 Integra GSR with 367,000 miles on the original engine and gearbox, and have NEVER let it sit for more than 20-30 seconds on the coldest of winter mornings, and the thing still runs like a top, every single day. But I stay my ass out of VTEC at least until the coolant temp needle has been in the middle for about 5 minutes or so, to give the oil time to get good'n'hot also.
I agree with this sooo much, alot of srt's in my lot wit keeps, rams etc. I'll I hear at lunch or after work is motors that are being pushed with 0 time to warm up. I jus cringe everytime jus knowing it kills the life of a engine. Treat the motor like your body, itll do you better
Every car ( i have owned 16 last count ) iv'e always warmed up before driving. From my shitty daily driver to my 83 911. Now looking at a 2008 BMW M3 convertible.
The tabs do not prevent the bearing from spinning . Their only job is to “ locate” . The bearings “ crush fit” is what allows it to attach to the rod. The problem here is clearance . Not that the tabs break
I'm the second owner of my 2010 e90 M3. I considered this job as maintenance. The original bearings were moderately worn. I guess we all need to consider the bearings as a sacrificial layer that needs to be replaced in order to avert more significant engine damage.
Actually there is another video on youtube of an American shop that explains the connecting rod bearing tolerances are just too tight for the engine's design. Worth searching to find.
Hay Guys, I've watched the video. Alot of good information on this issue. I'm buying a 2013 E93 M3 with 48,000 miles on it. I will definitely let the engine oil warm up before I get on the revs.
Great video. Seeing how almost every single person I’ve ever seen driving an M series cranks it up from stone cold and proceeds to do 70mph in a parking lot, I’d say they all need rod bearings.
Too often I see people revving their engines while standing still. Not a good idea. I've see a couple of Ferrari F458 blowing some blue oil smoke and I've seen quite a few of those cars being run hard without waiting for the oil temp to get to a proper oil temp. I know, it can be difficult to stop that impulse when listening to that engine rev up a bit.
Thank you for keeping the E9X involved in your channel. Best vid out regarding the S65 rod bearings. Absolutely love your channel, much love from the US!
@@EvolveAutomotive Thanks for replying Imran. That would be awesome, I really miss your old shop car. Maybe an E90 M3 this time or maybe an S65 swapped chassis? Arent the Z4 Roadsters equipped with an S65 in Europe? That would be awesome as well. Question if you have time, what hp levels are the factory DCT clutches and trans good for on the E9X? Tried researching but never really found a solid answer. Also do you guys use the BE Bearings? Which connecting rod bolts do you recommend?
The S65 V-8, just like a GT3 motor, are truely race derived motors with tight tolerances that need to be brought up to temperature. Warming them up before dropping the hammer is the price of admission for motors like these, and you have to do it.
Yeah but that's par for the course for any internal combustion engine. Get it up to temp before driving it hard, no matter what car or engine is in question. Doesn't really seem like the M3 is different than any other internal combustion engine vehicle in that respect.
Overhyping the s65... „truely race derived motors with tight tolerances“ bullshit. every engine needs pretty much the same warming up and the only reason the s65 breaks faster without proper warm up is because of its high rpm limit. Any car that revs that high will spin bearings when not warmed up properly. Nothing to do with the s65, and even less to do with being race derived. Let‘s be honest, by todays standards and already by 2008 standards the s65 was a pretty weak motor.. yikes
@@yll-6889 Funny why the Honda VTEC engines do not suffer from rod bearing failures and wear and some have over 9000rpm rev limit stock. I think the BMW issue is mostly because of too tight bearing clearance and the ultra thick 10w60 oil BMW recommends. This is what you get with that combo... PS: I dont own a Honda.
I’ve had my 2008 since 25k miles and a couple years old... 104k miles now and still have no issues, original clutch, routine oil changes, and I drive pretty spiritedly! I do plan to change the bearings as prevention in the near future as I would do that for any race engine as a solid refresh to ensure longevity...but it’s been a great engine with little trouble
I find it odd that planning to change the rod bearings on a Bmw is fine with you guys.You shouldn't have to change rod bearings like tires.Its not like its a performance icon it ISN'T.If the Vette,Camaro ss z28,1LE,mustang gt,gt350 or any American performance car had defects like BMWs you wouldn't buy them.You're the kind of guys that would pay 50 grand more for an m4 take it to the track and get smoked by a Vettes z28s Ss1les zl1 1les and still think your BMW is better than domestic cars.
Every year the respective top spec American or Japanese car has been faster than german crap boxes that inevitably self destructs. Its been this way since about 2011ish. Lexus > Crappy unreliable BMWs too.@@Arayig1982
My shop here advocates running the Mobil1 0W-40 in addition to bringing the engine up to proper operating temperature. The BMW specified lubricant (10W-60?) is just too viscous at lower temperatures, evidently. And Texas usually gets the oil hot very quickly.
For any car I've ever owned, keep the revs below 2k until car reaches operating temperature is standard practice. Then drive like I have sense. These newer cars are getting to be more money hungry as time goes on. Great video though 👍
Rod bearings were an issue on early s54b32 engines too. Basically I just do the rod bearings and main bearings with acl upgrade items and fit arp bolts while I’m there. Then I got peace of mind and you can enjoy the engine for the great thing it is
always said these cars are too highly strung to be sold to joe blogs the business man who didn't understand the dynamics of cold oil on that cold winters morning back in 2012 when he was late for work... Thick oil to manage the immense heat generated at high reciprocating speeds ....but this concept only works when there warmed up..il be changing mine soon ..cheaper than renewing bmw warranty great video Evolve
The big issue really is the first owner as you said, the one who used the car to commute and was always late, ragging it up the motorway slip road. Obviously they haven’t all been owned by this type of owner, but you just don’t know. With the popularity of lease cars nowadays I can’t see the issue going away with more modern cars either.
I never revved mine (or did more than 30% throttle) till it was fully warmed up (oil) and the rev-line marker moved to 8,400. Done 50k+ so far and right now I'm not really that nervous about this on my car (always used the appropriate oil and never had that car in climate was below 60F.
@@TeamAtterz awsome mate absolutely love it, the journey had to continue tried a bit of VW which wasn't engaging enough so went down the BMW road.. The cars are so driver focused.. The E92 is my best friend at the moment but a bit daft for a daily so iv Brought another saab 9-3 tid just to run to work in.. Hope your well mate
So you're saying every single M3 was sold to someone who didn't understand the dynamics of cold oil, while every Lexus ISF or AMG were sold to owners who understood the importance of a warm up? I find that hard to believe. BMW under engineered the product as usual. And now the cost of this maintenance passes on.
I am not driving an S65, it is an N52 on the E83. On a typical day in this season around only 3C in the early morning, this car takes about 8km of distance with mostly flat, some hills to get the coolant up to temp and 2 more for the oil(Reading via OBD). The best is also noted that I shouldn't run my AC at all else it goes another 2-4K depends on traffic. I do appreciate its heating seat so I don't get too chill and since I placed a bag of cat litter so that the interior isn't that dry.
Another great video Imran... thanks for getting this info out there. I have been limiting driving my E60 M5 due to these concerns... I only have 26,000 on it now. I’ve always let all my cars warm up for a good 5+ minutes (I guess I’m old school) so it’s reassuring that that’s still a good thing to do. I saw a press release a few years back from BMW stating that a change in recommended oil was advised. ...obviously an attempt to fix this issue with lower viscosity oil. It said to switch to a fully synthetic 5W40 for the S85, S65 and S54. I did it and completely stopped getting “low vanos pressure” fault codes. (The vanos high pressure lines were replaced through warranty at 1200 mi). I am now also running 5W40 in my S54 M3 as well. I’m using Amsoil European formula, changing every 6,000 mi (9,000km) What are you using and what do you suggest? ...Cheers
Definitely REAL! I just bought my first M3 (an 08 E90 with 40,000 miles) in October from a Carmax. Literally 38 days later I started hearing this intense knocking so I immediately took to into my local BMW dealership. They said they found metal shards in my oil filter and the entire engine is toast. The bill? $23,000 for a motor swap! Luckily I bought the warranty through Carmax - oh wait, warranty has decided not to cover it. “It’s YOUR fault they say.” Now I’m the sucker that is spending $70,000 total for a 10 year old M3 when I could’ve bought a pristine E30 M3 for that instead.
@@TheCarBro Would not surprise me. My last BMW dealer service, they called to tell me my serpentine belt was worn, and they could change it while they were replacing my rear wheel bearing I'd brought it in for...for $395. Insanity. The OEM belt is $30. I bought it, brought it with me when I picked the car up, went to the gas station down the street, cut the old belt, and had the new belt on before my gas was done pumping. Their labor rate is like $300/hr. Their quote might have been like $5-7k for the engine and then all the labor, add-on parts, suggested 'services', and tax...$23k doesn't seem far-fetched to me. My rear wheel bearing BTW, on a 1996 328is E36, was $700 at my favorite dealer. The other side recently went bad in early 2018, so I decided to buy the tools and do it myself, and I did, for less than $300 for BOTH sides, and it only took a day. Now I'm setup and experienced for the next time and it'll go even easier.
Is oil analysis a good idea? If copper is showing up in the results then that's a good indication it's time to change the bearings - and oil analysis is only £40 vs 1,500 for swapping shells
People still Like to say there is no issue and put the blinkers so they don’t have to spend £1500 to potentially save there engine it’s crazy. People make me laugh.i changed mine on a very low mile e92 just because..£1500 is better then £10,000. Great video!
Nope you are saying people open your eyes there is an issue.people are dumb to not listen,they do spin shells I know a few who have and the cost to repair is massive over just replacing them. No scaremongering just facts here 👍🏻
John Romaine - eisch, sorry man. Clearly a sore subject for you and you have a right to be a little upset - I’m sorry it cost you a motor but the issue is hyped-up with a tremendous amount of incorrect information, no-one can deny that but the point that most are missing is that the issue is completely nulled by preventative replacement and proper care. It’s not that big-bad or problem engine that people hype into a huge issue, it’s not like it breaks every 2 minutes or cracks in half if you look at it sideways. It’s a performance engine with corresponding stresses and maintenance requirements - do the correct maintenance at the right time and you won’t blow it up. It sucks that it cost you an engine, I get that and truthfully I’m crying a little because the bills for those replacements are going to hurt, both for my M3 & my M5, but not nearly as much as having to replace the whole engine. That’s all I meant - people go on and on about how it’s a problem engine and it’s a faulty design but it’s simply not true and it’s not that big a deal to prevent something bad from happening if you have the facts. Sorry about your motor man. But I bet it’s super now isn’t it?😁
John Romaine yeah man, again, seems like you got a raw deal and it’s clearly upset you. I’m sure I’d be upset as well. It just seems to me that the instances of “blown up” motors are more from lack of care and bad driver habits than outright failure - I’m not denying the wear, anything mechanical wears and I’ll even concede that perhaps it could have been better engineered, all I’m saying is that it’s been blown out of proportion in my own opinion - if that’s contrary to your opinion and your experience / research then so be it. As to your own car - if the unit was 2 years old and bmw didn’t replace it under motor plan I’d be interested in knowing why? (I don’t know how motorplan works in your country?)
I guess I'll get mine done for peace of mind too. I'm diligent about warm ups and warming down and always running clean fresh quality oil but who knows about 1 previous owner.
I have an e46 M3. The motor in these is essentially a race engins. 11.5 -1 compression, 10w60 oil. Don't use the variable tach red line to tell you when it's warm, it uses the water temp. Look at OIL temp to determine when its warm enough to rev the hell out of it!
How has BMW not recalled these cars boggles the mind, it is my understanding there is a law suit but have not heard the outcome yet. Quite an expensive repair job on top of the asking price of these cars. Not worth the headache or the extra expense in my opinion.
Because bmw has nothing to do with it. A performance car that revs as high as the m3 e92 WILL receive lots, lots of damage if not properly cared for. And then its a bmw. Lots of bmw driver will drive an e92 m3 like an asshole and do cold start burnouts and shit like that
@@yll-6889 I agree with the driving like assholes, but the fact is the tolerances on the connecting rod bearings is way tight and obviously it is a problem that could be fixed by BMW. With todays tech, BMW should be embarrassed by this. I really like the car but spending thousands above the price of the car is unacceptable to me. Just saying....
1970PMD yes I also agree a major car maker such as bmw should be embarrassed by this. It almost seems as they didn‘t really thoroughly test the car for road uses. But then again, people should know higher performance cars such as Ms and AMGs really do require proper warming up, and cooling down after hot rides (and of course proper maintenance). The s65 being a high revving bmw engine does not add any good to the already above mentioned lol. Search in youtube m3 e92 donuts, there‘s a german kid doing donuts on a parking lot. That‘s how around 90% of m3 get treated. The 10% left are the ones who got loved by their owners and the ones people complain about being up for sale for a ridiculous price (at least where i‘m from). I mean another comment said something about the s2k being more reliable but I‘ve never seen anyone torture an s2k in real life and in real life i‘ve already seen countless Ms and AMGs being irresponsibly raped by „cool“ guys
@@yll-6889 agreed. also going back to the e46, the connecting points for the rear subframe cracking like a cookie just kills it. that's another matter that BMW should correct. unacceptable.
hello I just want to ask what is the red stuff you are putting on the bearings before installing them? and also, does the direction of the bearing matter and are all the new bearings exactly the same or is it specified to each piston? Hope you will answer my question. Thanks.
Great video. I need to see you guys in the new year for an oil service, and possibly a spark plug change. Highams aren't cutting it... I've had my E92 since 37k on the clock, and have just reached 70k. I've always been careful with warming up my car before any revving beyond 4K revs. I am the 2nd, or 3rd owner. Do you think a rod bearing service is still necessary?
Look forward to seeing you Luke! Sadly the truth is you just don’t know, you have no idea how it was driven in that 37k miles before you owned it. And whilst you may not have put any considerable wear on them since then, they could still well be very worn, especially if it’s the bearings with copper in. Feel free to give us a call if you want to discuss it more, but our advice would be to get them changed, as it is the lesser of two evils. Plus the oil gets changed at the same time, so you’d save yourself a little there if you’re already having that done.
If you do not know the complete operational history and service history, or if it has been done by a competent shop, you absolutely must budget this service for any used BMW with the S65 or S85. Preventative maintenance may not be inexpensive, but it is compared to risking an engine rebuild.
@@dalehennessey6265 It's not mile oriented mate, firstly depends which gen you have, pre lci or lci. If lci then depends how the car is driven, if you are first owner and always warmed engine, changed oil max 5k miles.. you would never need to do the rod bearings. If you don't know how the car has been driven before, then you will never know for certain. If you have the pre lci and 40k and above.. do them. So it all depends on situation. My BMW M5 F10 40k miles 2 previous owners and full BMW history, 2 rod bearings went and caused engine damage.
Fascinating video. My M3 looked like the one in the video. I loved driving the car, but not the maintenance. I now have an American car with a warranty and love it.
Thank's for the informative video. I've heard of many guys changing the oil from the factory specified 10W 60 to a 5w50 and seem to be not having any problems.
That is fine in summer or hotter climates, I guess; but yes, that’s very thick when up to temperature. Mabye 5w40 would be a better alternative? BMW recommend 0-30 for My M140i.
A lower weight wouldn't have prevented this. Lower weights have weaker film strengths, and they also decrease oil pressure. The system is designed for that weight of oil, and the additives in the oil ensure protection and keep the oil moving well. Aside from that, a "five or zero" only refers to winter temp viscosity... it means nothing once the engine is warm, regardless if summer or winter.
@@jmayor88 Well part of the problem is the 10W60 oil being too thick when cold, and not becoming thin fast enough to fill the bearing clearances and protect against wear. Hence most of the wear would occur when driving with a cold engine. Once warmed up, yes, a little film strength would be lost, but I think that's a trade-off many have tried and is working, especially during winter. Unless you track the car hard during winter, there's no reason why a 5W40 or 5W50 wouldn't be a decent trade-off.
Slightly different issue. It's my understanding that on some of the earlier cars the rod journals weren't absolutely round so the round bearings that were put in the shells didnt fit well and lead to bearing wear. Rather than fixing all the rods ( massive and expensive job) BMW just made a bunch of custom bearings that could be put into earlier e46M3's (under warranty) thus in most cases solving the problem. Rear subframe issues was a much bigger problem in these cars :( Still love them though. Just fix them and let that in line 6 rip all the way to 8000 rpm :O)
change it bro its not that expensive and there probally down to the wire by now and even if there not at least its peace of mind any s65 engine making to those kind of milage deserve a checking
Great video and very informative. Is it safe to say that 2011-onwards vehicles are likely to be a "safer" prospect? I was wondering if you might also be able to comment on the issue of throttle actuators, as well as servicing of the dual clutch transmission.
that's what I take from the video, although of course it can always happen I have some 40k km on mine, never revving it cold, driving slowly util the oil gets up to temperature and even then, very rarely go over 8,000 rpm anyhow, it's too fast to go with that RPM on public roads anyhow
So when replacing the bearing on 2010 and newer what bearing should be used I hear so many ppl using different ones from stock and stock bolts to aftermarket and arp bolts design for that motor what do you suggest? And at what mileage?
Dear gentlemen at EVOLVE :-) Please supply with exactly the specifics as I go to order them not to be fooled again. Thanks in advance. Your humble servant and I soo enjoy being a part of all thos Imran. Roland D.
Wow! I had never even heard of this issue! I am considering putting my wife in one of these next year and really appreciate the heads up. Thanks mate 👍
@@Kealen69 Lol what? Its a car. Its job is to be a car. I wonder why Lexus never got that memo. This is back to shit design and a fail from BMW. They could've done a better job. They just didn't. The only special occasion the car has is when its being raced in an event. Besides that it starts, runs and drives as it should for the last 130k miles without an issue. BMW should probably stop under engineering their motors.
Can this be fixed through re designing the connecting rod and then the rod bearing? Are there companies out there that have remade the rod bearing to help with this problem? The only thing I have heard about are the ARP bolts and BE bearings.
My Toyota 4.7 V8 just rolled over 320K miles. Still runs like a sewing machine. No excuse for worn bearings at 65K miles, I don't care what it is. BTW I've owned 7 Bimmers, e9, two e24's, two e36's, e46 and e39. BMW hasn't made anything worth owning in the last 12 years.
ha ha ha ha ha comparing an SUV engine to a supercar V10. You know a dragster engine last from 1-7 races, so it gets only 1/4 mile to 1.5 miles. No excuse for that
Performance oriented chevy small blocks can easily last over 200k. There are tons of 300K Corvettes on them with normal oil analyses still going strong. This is a flaw in BMW; poor design actually.
The technologies, power, rpm, and materials vary greatly from engine to engine. While BMW clearly changed the makeup of the rod bearings, you can't at all denounce one engine because of experience from an entirely different one with different specifications and engineering goals.
Great video - very informative! I’ve got a 2013 supercharged E92 M3. Could you briefly advise as to how best to properly carry out the warm-up procedure..?
Jack L I’d say drive it. Don’t let it sit at idle to warm up like some people say. If it’s an auto, wait around 3 minutes then drive it carefully until up to temp.
or don't drive it during winter too :D But rod bearings is just a thing you should do if you buy a e92 m3 2nd hand with mileage nearing 100k, cheaper than buying a new engine ;D
Yes. I've seen a couple of different views about this. One person thinks BMW is specifying too heavy of an oil spec. Check out this web page: 540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
Agreed. I love the folks saying this is a high strung motor and some kind of pseudo supercar that needs all this care. The best is the claim that owners who bought this car didn't know. But apparently every ISF or AMG owner takes the time to warm their car up always. 130k miles on my ISF without a single issue besides normal maintenance.
@@d1sturb3d119 Yup.. Eurocar fans always have an excuse. Similarly, the excuse for Mercedes' and BMW's poor overall reliability is because they are sophisticated and complicated luxury cars.. And yet, again, Lexus cars are also extremely sophisticated and complex, and still manage to maintain excellent reliability.
@@bliglum Sadly Mercedes was indeed bulletproof while being complicated back in the 90's. I'd still purchase a late 80's early 90's Mercedes without a hint of hesitation. We owned an 1988 E320 back in the day. Little low on power but great handling. Not one issue. Just bullet proof. Even the SEC from that era was fantastic. Then Chrysler bought them over and screwed the whole company. My hope is they get back to being reliable but let see.
@@d1sturb3d119 Yeah, I remember the good Mercedes, I'd say more 80's and before, mid to late 90's is when they started going to crap. My dad sold MB's in the 70's and early 80's. Family car was the W123 300TD. Solid as a tank, vault like doors, and that distinctive sound and interior smell.. Ahh memories... But from what I remember, when we had that in the 90's as a kid, it was pretty solid and reliable. More reliable than the newer Taurus we got to replace it anyways. Newer ones though... Money pits to own... Very nice lease vehicles for those with heaps of disposable income though!
@@bliglum I search for older mercs in the line up where issues are well documented. If I had more money to throw it would be a fun project. But for now I'll have to stick to cars that can't be killed. My SC400 with a 1uz is kinda frustrating sometimes. It drifts when its cold, when its hot, when its overheating, just whatever lol. Good car with 280k on the clock.
The problem isn't the rod bearings, the problem is the main bearings closest to the chain. The chain puts too much tension on the crankshaft making the main bearings closest to the chain work way harder. If you are thinking all you need to do is replace rod bearings to extend the life of your S65/S85 THINK AGAIN. You know how all these shops pull out the rod bearings and look at them on a piece of paper and say "oh yea its great we caught this in time" it's a bunch of bull. Have them take apart the engine completely down to the crankshaft and have them look at the main bearings closest to the chain, THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM! If you actually want your engine to last have them replace both your rod bearings AND your main bearings. Unfortunately you can't just drop the oil pan to replace your main bearings, you need the entire engine taken out and disassembled. BMW Quality!
Great video! I have a late production 2010 M5. Do you think an Oil Analysis across 2 years indicating virtually no wear (Lead or Copper) is sufficient to delay replacing the bearings?
I would be hesitant to ever say an oil analysis was enough info to decide that on, but in theory at least it is better than an analysis that is bad! Honestly we consider this a service schedule item rather than a problem to be fixed at this point.
I bought my 08 e92 m3 with 86k miles. Lead content on first oil change was over 30. Next oil change was in the 20s, next was in the teens, now its around 12 at 116,000 miles. Idk how to explain that, but since i've owned it, I always warm it up, never ever go past 3k RPM when the engine is not at operating temp. When I cold start the car, I let the cold start cycle go, then I drive off. Usually only a minute. I take it to redline a few times each week, and do oil changes every 6k miles.
At that mileage we’d really recommend getting your rod bearings changed! 😬 Sounds like you’re doing all the right things for to look after them but that mileage is high!
Is this as common on the N55 . I've heard they are a weak point but not sure if it's something to be majorly co concerned about . 2016 m135i nearly Full history standard 70k
Can the M5's subframe be dropped the same was as that without having to undo all the suspension linkages and steering linkages? That looked really easy!
What about the S54? Would one replacement of bearings and make sure the engine is filling warmed up before operation last the bearings 100k miles? What about thinner oil?
Wow that’s a big job and certainly informative. Thank you. I was originally going for an E92 M3 DCT to replace my E82 135i, but F87 DCT M2 is the target now.
Evolve Automotive enjoyed both, but preferred the M2 as a daily. M3 lovely emotional engine though. My 135i has full Birds conversion inc the Quaife LSD. If it’d been a DCT I would have kept. You video helps though re E92 M3s. I test drove a 13 plate at Barons BMW.
What have you guys heard about BE Bearings? From what I know they worked with the OEM supplier for the original S65/S85 bearings to create a new design with industry standard tolerances to completely rectify this issue.
Great video! Are the rod bearing issue bigger on manual cars than DCT cars? Because the cars with DCT has a 6k redline when cold and the 6MT only has an “suggested” lower redline right?
This video is what I've been looking for! Is this rod bearing issue common to S63(F10 M5) engine as well?? I have one of those and had exactly same rod bearing problem... resulted in engine replacement...
Not what we’d call common, yet. But we have heard of the S63 having bearing failure also. Whether that’s due to a similar reason as this or not is yet to be established.
The tangs, you call a locating tabs, are NOT there to stop the bearings from spinning. They are there for assembly purposes. The outside diameter of the bearing is bigger than the big end of the rod. Then the cap is bolted down there is a slight crush to the bearing which is what holds the bearing in place once the engine is assembled. In fact there are many rods out there with no 'locating tabs' at all.
Voted it up, because this is the truth.
Yepper. Dats wot I fought two.
You are correct. It is a common misconception that the locator tabs keep journal bearings from spinning, even among pro mechanics. The tabs are there simply for installation ease.
As a real world example, I built a Ford FE V8 and had to use main journal bearings from a Cleveland which have the tabs in the wrong location so I filed off the tabs. The result is a great running engine with no spun bearings.
You will spin a bearing if you lose oil flow.
I warm up my Honda what makes you think you don’t have to warm up a high revving v8.
Every engine needs this but most people who get these types of cars new lease them and don't care.
@@EvolveAutomotive exactly. They lease them, get a new one in two or three years and if anything breaks the warranty covers it...
Its crazy because every engine feels like its struggling and unhappy when you don't warm it up.
you only need 30 sec of warm up and just drive it normally until the oil temp reaches normal. Problem is ppl start their car and bonce the rev limiter...
Happy Cupcake i would warm it up longer then that. i let my tsx warm up for 1-2 min then drive it below 2k
Props for the solid camera angle on that bottom-end elapsed shot.
Thanks! 🙌
Wow that was done with the front subframe still attached! I can't imagine someone doing something like this without a lift.
And for those wondering, "warm up the car" simply means drive it easily under 3K-4K RPM until the oil gets up to operating temperature. It doesn't mean to start the car and let it sit there for 5 or 10 minutes or more. That's just wasteful and extends the time required to get the car up to temp. Just drive it easily and it will get up to temp much sooner.
Yeah you are right about the warm up procedure... Most people don't read the manual. I have read about a lot of people who think they are doing good by leaving it on in their garage for 10-15 minutes. Idle is not good for these engines.
@@Trajectory-n9w what's the operating temperature for these cars?
@@00302998 Around 210 Fahrenheit should be around where the temp sits. I think they say 190-240 is okay, but I have never got my temps near 240 even with a stage 3 evolve tune and driving the doors off. These are just numbers from the top of my head they aren't exact.
@@Trajectory-n9w gotcha, my technique is to drive it slow until the REV limiter reduces to the optimal range (the orange and yellow thing on the RPM dial). I still drive slow until she's around 150 or so - i guess I should stretch it out a bit more and wait before going higher on the RPM's
@@00302998 I think 190-210°F is the ideal oil temperature for most vehicles.
This is really informative about the nature of the problem! However, no one seems to present the prevalence of engine failures from this issue-the actual number of cars affected-so we can understand the scope of the problem.
I think they did mention someone that'll help. If the car is properly warmed up then the actual problem is reduced. (:
Moral of the story is: warm up your damn car 😁
Always regardless of the engine
Why do you think that soooo many in the auto business -knowledgeable people-go out of their way to explain that you ***don’t*** need to warm up your engine? I always do. Just the N52 that I have in 2 cars, I let it idle for 5 minutes then drive it slowly in lower gears, keeping revs below 3,000, for 10 minutes. I hope that this will pay off.
@@Bmwguy2011 It's so simple.
@@EvolveAutomotive that's right 👍
no you don't need to let the car sit and idle for many minutes before driving. You DO need to drive the car fairly slowly and easily for the first few minutes, as that will get the engine up to operating temperature faster than just letting it sit there and idle. However if this problem still happens even just driving it easy for the first few minutes, then the OEM oil spec is too thick at cold startup.
The big clue is that BMW fit an oil temp gauge to the M cars.
they also fit indicators....
@@pokiou underrated comment of the year right here
Chris, I'm worried about your intellect my guy....
The fact BMW have updated the shells proves that they are the issue, the damage is done every time you turn the key.
@@330driver330 Actually I would say - Cold Start, Short Trips reving that glorious V8 and initial owners who were just not aware of the Rod Bearing Issue as it had not spread then is probably the greatest contributor.
Wow you guys replace the bearings without pulling the engine. Impressive!
well why should you remove engine when you can just remove the sump ? its normal thinking nothing impressive...
Chostera lol some people are easily impressed
Yeah you can change the rod bearings without pulling the motor but it’s difficult
@@Silas_cv1 It's not
That's how in frame rebuilds are done on heavy diesel engines btw
Awesome. Love the time lapse and music. These are perfect for someone who is interested in how you do repairs but have no expertise, time or tools to do it ourselves. Thank You for posting
Cheers. We do like a time lapse video 😁
why now that you saw you will fix it alone in you house? come on men...bmw-audi should be in the court paying retarded money back to owners..when 40.000km m3 are in mechanic for 4.000 euro fixes...demand you pay you need to demand..they are getting away with very bad things because of brainwashed zombis...status freaks.....the non reliable cars should be the cheapest ones....what the fuck the shit cars to be expensive..but reliable ones the cheapest
@@EvolveAutomotive Why don t you use aftermarket rod bearings, those with "Designed to address and fix the rod bearing clearance issue" by adding an extra 0.0005? A lot of tuners sell kits that addresses both material quality and tolerances.They are from 500 to 800 Euros, so not a big difference.
@@commantrosexetlos4700 every car has it's issues, reliable cars are not blessed with great handling and speed, they don't use expensive lighter alloys. If you want a car to run errands and commute, don't buy a performance vehicle. I can drive my Ford Focus like a rally car, bumpy city roads don't bother it, used my BMW to commute for 4 months, the suspension and tires took a beating on the crappy roads. Since I love my BMW I accept that I have to pay to play, my solution is to have a second car that is more reliable to share the workload.
I just sold my e92 M3. BMW should have addressed this for their customers. This should not be considered maintenance, and its just par for the course for BMW. I love them but it seems every engine they build has some sort of achilles heel.
Very true
Same here. I sold mine at 32K miles. Bought an RS3 instead.
@@TheRavsingh damn I was thinking of getting a mustang gt, g37, m3 or a 335i but everyone keeps crying about the. Maintenance
@@Mr.Hashira NO shit. Especially when you lease an 2017 M240i and the dealer charges $2,200 to replace the radiator due to a leak so small that you need a 20X ZOOM to see it. Sorry BMW, but i'll stay with my trusted 3.0TFSI audi.
@@BoghyFL hows the 3.0 tfsi holding up for you?
The locating tabs do not wear, they locate the bearings laterally in their housings and protrude into a slot in the rod or big end cap so that is away from the crankshaft journal. Only if the bearing picks up on the crank journal and rotates can the tab be pushed back into the bearing. The bearings when fitted into the rod and the cap protrude slightly so that when the cap is torqued down the shell edges meet and amount of crush is created which firmly locates the shell bearings by friction within the big end housing.
Aside from that detail this is an excellent video.
Thanks for the extra input. Appreciate it
Great description! Tabless bearing shells have been around for years, the tab doesn't stop the shell rotating. Land Rover 2.7 TDCi engines have a bad rep for spinning bearings, people blame the tabless design but its more likely low oil level and poor tolerances that do it!
I have ground off the locating tabs(tangs) on the Honda bearings( reason being b16 bearings used on d16 engine) and they don't spin. I think BMW bearings spun because of the clearance ( tolerance is different) and the crank touching the bearings. Not because of the locating tabs. Locating means just that . Locating. Bearing crush ensures bearing is pressed against the rods. Again 'tolerance' is not correct word.
Very nice contribution thx! Must be said that the overall failure rate is below 1%, most at pre-2010 cars and the result of poor maintenace of hard driving in cold start modes.. happy to own a well maintained 2010 E90 myself!:)
100% True, I agree with you, the rod bearings its mith
All I could see as they worked was £££££ adding up fast 🤮
*I'm not even a BMW fan and I found this informative and truly enjoyed it.* Great video with great camera work.
Thanks for watching 😁
In most Bmw M's you should always look for their weakness. I recently purchased an F80 M3 and I wasn't aware that the crank hubs spin in this cars at any given time... So there for I replaced it with a MAX PSI one so I can have a peace of mind when I want to add more power or go on long distance drives. I will be uploading a full review video of the entire process next week in my channel. Subscribe if you love M's or just cars period.
I haven't been looking at the F80 chassis. Maybe now I'll take a look and see what is common to fail on those. (:
I don't understand all these comments of "it's a race motor, you need to warm it up first!" as if that's somehow different from the recommended procedure for every car ever made ever. Want your engine to last? Don't floor it when it's cold! All the time in parking lots I hear cars, mostly small to mid-size SUV's that sound like they're about to launch a rod through the block. Guarantee you the person has a lead foot even from the first cold startup every day. I daily drive a 94 Integra GSR with 367,000 miles on the original engine and gearbox, and have NEVER let it sit for more than 20-30 seconds on the coldest of winter mornings, and the thing still runs like a top, every single day. But I stay my ass out of VTEC at least until the coolant temp needle has been in the middle for about 5 minutes or so, to give the oil time to get good'n'hot also.
The truth is BMW fucked up. But fanboys won't admit it.
Rod bearings aren't regular maintenance.
I agree with this sooo much, alot of srt's in my lot wit keeps, rams etc. I'll I hear at lunch or after work is motors that are being pushed with 0 time to warm up. I jus cringe everytime jus knowing it kills the life of a engine. Treat the motor like your body, itll do you better
Every car ( i have owned 16 last count ) iv'e always warmed up before driving. From my shitty daily driver to my 83 911. Now looking at a 2008 BMW M3 convertible.
@@TheRonin508 Exactly! Regular maintenance my ass.
REDACTED new bearings should be of a higher quality and last the life of the engine. Also only some cars have the bearing issue
The tabs do not prevent the bearing from spinning . Their only job is to “ locate” . The bearings “ crush fit” is what allows it to attach to the rod. The problem here is clearance . Not that the tabs break
I'm the second owner of my 2010 e90 M3. I considered this job as maintenance. The original bearings were moderately worn. I guess we all need to consider the bearings as a sacrificial layer that needs to be replaced in order to avert more significant engine damage.
Exactly
Easily the best video explaining the issue and what’s involved. Thanks Imran.
Thanks Ian ✌️
Actually there is another video on youtube of an American shop that explains the connecting rod bearing tolerances are just too tight for the engine's design. Worth searching to find.
Hay Guys, I've watched the video. Alot of good information on this issue. I'm buying a 2013 E93 M3 with 48,000 miles on it. I will definitely let the engine oil warm up before I get on the revs.
Great video. Seeing how almost every single person I’ve ever seen driving an M series cranks it up from stone cold and proceeds to do 70mph in a parking lot, I’d say they all need rod bearings.
Too often I see people revving their engines while standing still. Not a good idea. I've see a couple of Ferrari F458 blowing some blue oil smoke and I've seen quite a few of those cars being run hard without waiting for the oil temp to get to a proper oil temp. I know, it can be difficult to stop that impulse when listening to that engine rev up a bit.
@@Rhaspun People who rev in neutral should all be shoved in woodchippers. A motor spinning under no load only sounds good to idiots anyway.
Thank you for keeping the E9X involved in your channel. Best vid out regarding the S65 rod bearings. Absolutely love your channel, much love from the US!
Thanks! Appreciate the comments. We love the E9x. Maybe time to buy another one.
@@EvolveAutomotive Thanks for replying Imran. That would be awesome, I really miss your old shop car. Maybe an E90 M3 this time or maybe an S65 swapped chassis? Arent the Z4 Roadsters equipped with an S65 in Europe? That would be awesome as well.
Question if you have time, what hp levels are the factory DCT clutches and trans good for on the E9X? Tried researching but never really found a solid answer.
Also do you guys use the BE Bearings? Which connecting rod bolts do you recommend?
The S65 V-8, just like a GT3 motor, are truely race derived motors with tight tolerances that need to be brought up to temperature. Warming them up before dropping the hammer is the price of admission for motors like these, and you have to do it.
couldn't agree with you more mate
Yeah but that's par for the course for any internal combustion engine. Get it up to temp before driving it hard, no matter what car or engine is in question. Doesn't really seem like the M3 is different than any other internal combustion engine vehicle in that respect.
@@Patrick94GSR its different because others may not bite you in the ass so hard.
Overhyping the s65... „truely race derived motors with tight tolerances“ bullshit. every engine needs pretty much the same warming up and the only reason the s65 breaks faster without proper warm up is because of its high rpm limit. Any car that revs that high will spin bearings when not warmed up properly. Nothing to do with the s65, and even less to do with being race derived. Let‘s be honest, by todays standards and already by 2008 standards the s65 was a pretty weak motor.. yikes
@@yll-6889 Funny why the Honda VTEC engines do not suffer from rod bearing failures and wear and some have over 9000rpm rev limit stock. I think the BMW issue is mostly because of too tight bearing clearance and the ultra thick 10w60 oil BMW recommends. This is what you get with that combo... PS: I dont own a Honda.
As a person who wants to own an e92 in the future, this is useful information.
Don’t let it put you off, they are fantastic cars 🙌🏻
I’ve had my 2008 since 25k miles and a couple years old...
104k miles now and still have no issues, original clutch, routine oil changes, and I drive pretty spiritedly! I do plan to change the bearings as prevention in the near future as I would do that for any race engine as a solid refresh to ensure longevity...but it’s been a great engine with little trouble
I find it odd that planning to change the rod bearings on a Bmw is fine with you guys.You shouldn't have to change rod bearings like tires.Its not like its a performance icon it ISN'T.If the Vette,Camaro ss z28,1LE,mustang gt,gt350 or any American performance car had defects like BMWs you wouldn't buy them.You're the kind of guys that would pay 50 grand more for an m4 take it to the track and get smoked by a Vettes z28s Ss1les zl1 1les and still think your BMW is better than domestic cars.
@@realisrealite5554they are, actually.
Every year the respective top spec American or Japanese car has been faster than german crap boxes that inevitably self destructs. Its been this way since about 2011ish. Lexus > Crappy unreliable BMWs too.@@Arayig1982
My shop here advocates running the Mobil1 0W-40 in addition to bringing the engine up to proper operating temperature. The BMW specified lubricant (10W-60?) is just too viscous at lower temperatures, evidently. And Texas usually gets the oil hot very quickly.
Great vid!....when i get my car back to the uk, it will be coming to you for rod bearings, good price as well!
See you soon 😎
For any car I've ever owned, keep the revs below 2k until car reaches operating temperature is standard practice. Then drive like I have sense. These newer cars are getting to be more money hungry as time goes on. Great video though 👍
Great clip! Love the e92 M3 - very informative. For anyone in Europe the cost is 1500 - 1600 euro 💪👍
Awesome video. First channel that has addressed this common issue in such detail. Could you guys do one on the throttle actuators??
Rod bearings were an issue on early s54b32 engines too. Basically I just do the rod bearings and main bearings with acl upgrade items and fit arp bolts while I’m there. Then I got peace of mind and you can enjoy the engine for the great thing it is
Here from Ricky's channel, very well done video guys! Love the timelapses and nice shots.
Thanks Ian! Glad you enjoyed it
Great video mate, could you do a similar take on the s55 crank pulley
We will do at some point
@@EvolveAutomotive any news on this?
always said these cars are too highly strung to be sold to joe blogs the business man who didn't understand the dynamics of cold oil on that cold winters morning back in 2012 when he was late for work... Thick oil to manage the immense heat generated at high reciprocating speeds ....but this concept only works when there warmed up..il be changing mine soon ..cheaper than renewing bmw warranty
great video Evolve
The big issue really is the first owner as you said, the one who used the car to commute and was always late, ragging it up the motorway slip road. Obviously they haven’t all been owned by this type of owner, but you just don’t know.
With the popularity of lease cars nowadays I can’t see the issue going away with more modern cars either.
I never revved mine (or did more than 30% throttle) till it was fully warmed up (oil) and the rev-line marker moved to 8,400. Done 50k+ so far and right now I'm not really that nervous about this on my car (always used the appropriate oil and never had that car in climate was below 60F.
Shame you got rid of the Saab Daniel! How is your M3?
@@TeamAtterz awsome mate absolutely love it, the journey had to continue tried a bit of VW which wasn't engaging enough so went down the BMW road.. The cars are so driver focused.. The E92 is my best friend at the moment but a bit daft for a daily so iv Brought another saab 9-3 tid just to run to work in.. Hope your well mate
So you're saying every single M3 was sold to someone who didn't understand the dynamics of cold oil, while every Lexus ISF or AMG were sold to owners who understood the importance of a warm up? I find that hard to believe. BMW under engineered the product as usual. And now the cost of this maintenance passes on.
Nicely put together and very informative for people like me looking at buying the E92 V8!
Cheers
There’s a shop in Australia, that recommends using 5w-30 for the s65 engine, as it prevents wear on the motor.
Done this job myself! What a joy it was 😂
Definitely not for the faint of heart!
@@EvolveAutomotive Agreed! Was £100 just for the con rod bearing bolts from BMW & Shell's were like £200? But still cheaper than a new engine 100%
@@ashleyburton8605 Prob way cheaper than sending it to a shop, but skill and courage is needed, haha..
Yeah it's not for the faint hearted
I'm in Ontario Canada, need to find a shop that does rod bearings.
I'd think bmw dealers will hammer me hard!!
2011 m3
I am not driving an S65, it is an N52 on the E83. On a typical day in this season around only 3C in the early morning, this car takes about 8km of distance with mostly flat, some hills to get the coolant up to temp and 2 more for the oil(Reading via OBD). The best is also noted that I shouldn't run my AC at all else it goes another 2-4K depends on traffic. I do appreciate its heating seat so I don't get too chill and since I placed a bag of cat litter so that the interior isn't that dry.
Awesome video. It was very relaxing and enjoyable to watch. Thanks Imran and Aston.
😁
awesome time lapse. good job doing this without fully removing the engine. didn't realize how big that front sub was.
Exceptionally helpful, unequivocal advice. Thanks v much, I know what I’m going to do!
Thanks!
Another great video Imran... thanks for getting this info out there. I have been limiting driving my E60 M5 due to these concerns... I only have 26,000 on it now. I’ve always let all my cars warm up for a good 5+ minutes (I guess I’m old school) so it’s reassuring that that’s still a good thing to do. I saw a press release a few years back from BMW stating that a change in recommended oil was advised. ...obviously an attempt to fix this issue with lower viscosity oil. It said to switch to a fully synthetic 5W40 for the S85, S65 and S54. I did it and completely stopped getting “low vanos pressure” fault codes. (The vanos high pressure lines were replaced through warranty at 1200 mi). I am now also running 5W40 in my S54 M3 as well. I’m using Amsoil European formula, changing every 6,000 mi (9,000km) What are you using and what do you suggest? ...Cheers
Definitely REAL! I just bought my first M3 (an 08 E90 with 40,000 miles) in October from a Carmax. Literally 38 days later I started hearing this intense knocking so I immediately took to into my local BMW dealership. They said they found metal shards in my oil filter and the entire engine is toast. The bill? $23,000 for a motor swap! Luckily I bought the warranty through Carmax - oh wait, warranty has decided not to cover it. “It’s YOUR fault they say.”
Now I’m the sucker that is spending $70,000 total for a 10 year old M3 when I could’ve bought a pristine E30 M3 for that instead.
I would be so so so enlightened so see the paper they showed you that says it will be $23k lol.
yikes, im surprised carmax didn't honor the warranty. What was their justification?
@@TheCarBro Would not surprise me. My last BMW dealer service, they called to tell me my serpentine belt was worn, and they could change it while they were replacing my rear wheel bearing I'd brought it in for...for $395.
Insanity. The OEM belt is $30. I bought it, brought it with me when I picked the car up, went to the gas station down the street, cut the old belt, and had the new belt on before my gas was done pumping. Their labor rate is like $300/hr.
Their quote might have been like $5-7k for the engine and then all the labor, add-on parts, suggested 'services', and tax...$23k doesn't seem far-fetched to me.
My rear wheel bearing BTW, on a 1996 328is E36, was $700 at my favorite dealer. The other side recently went bad in early 2018, so I decided to buy the tools and do it myself, and I did, for less than $300 for BOTH sides, and it only took a day. Now I'm setup and experienced for the next time and it'll go even easier.
John Porter wow first time i read that carmax refuses to pay,did you sue them?
@@TheCarBro He cant because he has a e90 328i just look at his page...complete BS
Is oil analysis a good idea? If copper is showing up in the results then that's a good indication it's time to change the bearings - and oil analysis is only £40 vs 1,500 for swapping shells
People still Like to say there is no issue and put the blinkers so they don’t have to spend £1500 to potentially save there engine it’s crazy. People make me laugh.i changed mine on a very low mile e92 just because..£1500 is better then £10,000.
Great video!
I know. People also say we are scaremongering 😅
Nope you are saying people open your eyes there is an issue.people are dumb to not listen,they do spin shells I know a few who have and the cost to repair is massive over just replacing them.
No scaremongering just facts here 👍🏻
What about the thrust bearings and main bearings? If there’s wear on the big end bearings then surely there will be wear on them as well.
Great video, just the facts. So much overhype on these, really appreciate the clear information.
Glad you enjoyed it.
John Romaine - eisch, sorry man. Clearly a sore subject for you and you have a right to be a little upset - I’m sorry it cost you a motor but the issue is hyped-up with a tremendous amount of incorrect information, no-one can deny that but the point that most are missing is that the issue is completely nulled by preventative replacement and proper care. It’s not that big-bad or problem engine that people hype into a huge issue, it’s not like it breaks every 2 minutes or cracks in half if you look at it sideways. It’s a performance engine with corresponding stresses and maintenance requirements - do the correct maintenance at the right time and you won’t blow it up. It sucks that it cost you an engine, I get that and truthfully I’m crying a little because the bills for those replacements are going to hurt, both for my M3 & my M5, but not nearly as much as having to replace the whole engine. That’s all I meant - people go on and on about how it’s a problem engine and it’s a faulty design but it’s simply not true and it’s not that big a deal to prevent something bad from happening if you have the facts. Sorry about your motor man. But I bet it’s super now isn’t it?😁
John Romaine yeah man, again, seems like you got a raw deal and it’s clearly upset you. I’m sure I’d be upset as well. It just seems to me that the instances of “blown up” motors are more from lack of care and bad driver habits than outright failure - I’m not denying the wear, anything mechanical wears and I’ll even concede that perhaps it could have been better engineered, all I’m saying is that it’s been blown out of proportion in my own opinion - if that’s contrary to your opinion and your experience / research then so be it. As to your own car - if the unit was 2 years old and bmw didn’t replace it under motor plan I’d be interested in knowing why? (I don’t know how motorplan works in your country?)
@John Romaine No BMW good will? What a shame. That would have been covered by warranty in USA.
If it was overhyped why did BMW change the bearing design?
This is one of the best videos I've found on this topic. Well put together and very informative! Great job.
Thanks!
Enjoyed that, interesting seeing the time lapse.
I guess I'll get mine done for peace of mind too. I'm diligent about warm ups and warming down and always running clean fresh quality oil but who knows about 1 previous owner.
Do you guys generally see less wear on the '11+ models when you inspect them, as compared to the '08-'10's?
I have an e46 M3. The motor in these is essentially a race engins. 11.5 -1 compression, 10w60 oil. Don't use the variable tach red line to tell you when it's warm, it uses the water temp. Look at OIL temp to determine when its warm enough to rev the hell out of it!
How has BMW not recalled these cars boggles the mind, it is my understanding there is a law suit but have not heard the outcome yet. Quite an expensive repair job on top of the asking price of these cars. Not worth the headache or the extra expense in my opinion.
Good. More for me.
Because bmw has nothing to do with it. A performance car that revs as high as the m3 e92 WILL receive lots, lots of damage if not properly cared for. And then its a bmw. Lots of bmw driver will drive an e92 m3 like an asshole and do cold start burnouts and shit like that
@@yll-6889 I agree with the driving like assholes, but the fact is the tolerances on the connecting rod bearings is way tight and obviously it is a problem that could be fixed by BMW. With todays tech, BMW should be embarrassed by this. I really like the car but spending thousands above the price of the car is unacceptable to me. Just saying....
1970PMD yes I also agree a major car maker such as bmw should be embarrassed by this. It almost seems as they didn‘t really thoroughly test the car for road uses. But then again, people should know higher performance cars such as Ms and AMGs really do require proper warming up, and cooling down after hot rides (and of course proper maintenance). The s65 being a high revving bmw engine does not add any good to the already above mentioned lol. Search in youtube m3 e92 donuts, there‘s a german kid doing donuts on a parking lot. That‘s how around 90% of m3 get treated. The 10% left are the ones who got loved by their owners and the ones people complain about being up for sale for a ridiculous price (at least where i‘m from). I mean another comment said something about the s2k being more reliable but I‘ve never seen anyone torture an s2k in real life and in real life i‘ve already seen countless Ms and AMGs being irresponsibly raped by „cool“ guys
@@yll-6889 agreed. also going back to the e46, the connecting points for the rear subframe cracking like a cookie just kills it. that's another matter that BMW should correct. unacceptable.
I own an e90 M3. I def wanna get this done in the future. It’s so stupid bmw doesn’t recall this.
It’s real. Mine gave out at 21k. I had to replace complete motor.
ouch.
That's freaking crazy man ! 21k miles! Unbelievable!
i bet you never warmed up you engine?
hello
I just want to ask what is the red stuff you are putting on the bearings before installing them? and also, does the direction of the bearing matter and are all the new bearings exactly the same or is it specified to each piston?
Hope you will answer my question.
Thanks.
Great video. I need to see you guys in the new year for an oil service, and possibly a spark plug change. Highams aren't cutting it...
I've had my E92 since 37k on the clock, and have just reached 70k. I've always been careful with warming up my car before any revving beyond 4K revs. I am the 2nd, or 3rd owner. Do you think a rod bearing service is still necessary?
Look forward to seeing you Luke!
Sadly the truth is you just don’t know, you have no idea how it was driven in that 37k miles before you owned it. And whilst you may not have put any considerable wear on them since then, they could still well be very worn, especially if it’s the bearings with copper in.
Feel free to give us a call if you want to discuss it more, but our advice would be to get them changed, as it is the lesser of two evils. Plus the oil gets changed at the same time, so you’d save yourself a little there if you’re already having that done.
If you do not know the complete operational history and service history, or if it has been done by a competent shop, you absolutely must budget this service for any used BMW with the S65 or S85. Preventative maintenance may not be inexpensive, but it is compared to risking an engine rebuild.
@@EvolveAutomotive what mileage do you recommend changing them and what bearing do you use?
@@dalehennessey6265 It's not mile oriented mate, firstly depends which gen you have, pre lci or lci. If lci then depends how the car is driven, if you are first owner and always warmed engine, changed oil max 5k miles.. you would never need to do the rod bearings. If you don't know how the car has been driven before, then you will never know for certain. If you have the pre lci and 40k and above.. do them. So it all depends on situation. My BMW M5 F10 40k miles 2 previous owners and full BMW history, 2 rod bearings went and caused engine damage.
Fascinating video. My M3 looked like the one in the video. I loved driving the car, but not the maintenance. I now have an American car with a warranty and love it.
Thank's for the informative video. I've heard of many guys changing the oil from the factory specified 10W 60 to a 5w50 and seem to be not having any problems.
Yes but the upper section will die. I stick with 10w 60, use manual mode when code up shift force shitft at every 1500 rpm
@@timcheou5649 very good point.
"not having any problems" YET. You forgot the YET :) They will all have problems eventually IMO. You just don't want to be the one holding the bunny.
Great video very well explained it appears if you replace the bearings and then warm the engine every time you drive the engine should be fine.
Never really understood why BMW recommended 10/60 weight oil for the S65. A five or zero might have prevented this.
That is fine in summer or hotter climates, I guess; but yes, that’s very thick when up to temperature. Mabye 5w40 would be a better alternative? BMW recommend 0-30 for My M140i.
@@roadreg1820 i would use 5w40 fully synthetic for the b48/b58 engine. Liqui Moly leichtlauf high tech 5w40 is the best oil for those engines
Agreed, or even the pretty rare Mobil 1 5W50 used by the Lexus LFA would be a good compromise.
A lower weight wouldn't have prevented this. Lower weights have weaker film strengths, and they also decrease oil pressure. The system is designed for that weight of oil, and the additives in the oil ensure protection and keep the oil moving well. Aside from that, a "five or zero" only refers to winter temp viscosity... it means nothing once the engine is warm, regardless if summer or winter.
@@jmayor88 Well part of the problem is the 10W60 oil being too thick when cold, and not becoming thin fast enough to fill the bearing clearances and protect against wear. Hence most of the wear would occur when driving with a cold engine. Once warmed up, yes, a little film strength would be lost, but I think that's a trade-off many have tried and is working, especially during winter. Unless you track the car hard during winter, there's no reason why a 5W40 or 5W50 wouldn't be a decent trade-off.
Great video. This isn't BMW's first issue with high strung engines. E46 suffered bearing issues too and reduced the max rpms there in.
Thanks and yes you are correct.
Slightly different issue. It's my understanding that on some of the earlier cars the rod journals weren't absolutely round so the round bearings that were put in the shells didnt fit well and lead to bearing wear. Rather than fixing all the rods ( massive and expensive job) BMW just made a bunch of custom bearings that could be put into earlier e46M3's (under warranty) thus in most cases solving the problem. Rear subframe issues was a much bigger problem in these cars :( Still love them though. Just fix them and let that in line 6 rip all the way to 8000 rpm :O)
I have 170k on oem bearings hope I don’t jinx myself
change it bro its not that expensive and there probally down to the wire by now and even if there not at least its peace of mind any s65 engine making to those kind of milage deserve a checking
Hell you've made it that far I doubt they're gonna fail soon.
Have you changed them since this post? I hope so cos if you havent then youre playing a dangerous game !
What type of rod bearing did you put on ?? And where can I get them ??
Great video and very informative. Is it safe to say that 2011-onwards vehicles are likely to be a "safer" prospect?
I was wondering if you might also be able to comment on the issue of throttle actuators, as well as servicing of the dual clutch transmission.
that's what I take from the video, although of course it can always happen
I have some 40k km on mine, never revving it cold, driving slowly util the oil gets up to temperature and even then, very rarely go over 8,000 rpm anyhow, it's too fast to go with that RPM on public roads anyhow
I don't understand why you had to take the air filter top of the engine off to do this job? Very great video thank you
You don’t have to, we were doing other maintenance to this car at the same time.
Thats a lot to take off wow, great job and explanation tho.
Can this engine be run on an oil with lower winter weight? 10W60 surely is quite a high winter rating for UK use?
Poor Aston, has to take the whole sub frame out
No small job.
So when replacing the bearing on 2010 and newer what bearing should be used I hear so many ppl using different ones from stock and stock bolts to aftermarket and arp bolts design for that motor what do you suggest? And at what mileage?
Great video guys, these are great engines a true M great.
Dear gentlemen at EVOLVE :-)
Please supply with exactly the specifics as I go to order them not to be fooled again.
Thanks in advance.
Your humble servant and I soo enjoy being a part of all thos Imran.
Roland D.
Great vid guy's.
So children what have we learnt today..
Thats right.
Don't buy a secpnd hand M power BMW unless you have deep pockets. .
If you cant afford 2, you can't afford 1.
dumb comment
Get rid of your BMW before the warranty expires. They aren't built to last, and that's intentional.
@@DivadNoodeldehm-lz2gm Good comment!
Stupid question if I changed the rod bearings I don’t change it again after how many miles?
Wow! I had never even heard of this issue! I am considering putting my wife in one of these next year and really appreciate the heads up. Thanks mate 👍
Once you do this it's all good.
This isn't a commuting car or a first car, heavy on gas and extremely expensive to repair, this is a weekend car.
@@Kealen69 Absolutely. Gave my wife one (E93, 2010) and it's only used for special occasions.
@@Kealen69 Lol what? Its a car. Its job is to be a car. I wonder why Lexus never got that memo. This is back to shit design and a fail from BMW. They could've done a better job. They just didn't. The only special occasion the car has is when its being raced in an event. Besides that it starts, runs and drives as it should for the last 130k miles without an issue. BMW should probably stop under engineering their motors.
@@d1sturb3d119 I wanted a Lexus but BMW has better handling
This video is all I need to know about the rod bearings in the m3s. Great vid. Loved the timelapse of the work done.
The cars should’ve had a rev limiter from the factory that changes as the engine warms up... that would’ve eliminated this stupid issue
It does already
how about some protection on the fenders while you're working?
All cars shold be warmed up before driving.
Not a rental car
@@p1fly Rental car and society car are made to be destroy !
Can this be fixed through re designing the connecting rod and then the rod bearing? Are there companies out there that have remade the rod bearing to help with this problem? The only thing I have heard about are the ARP bolts and BE bearings.
My Toyota 4.7 V8 just rolled over 320K miles. Still runs like a sewing machine. No excuse for worn bearings at 65K miles, I don't care what it is. BTW I've owned 7 Bimmers, e9, two e24's, two e36's, e46 and e39. BMW hasn't made anything worth owning in the last 12 years.
ha ha ha ha ha comparing an SUV engine to a supercar V10. You know a dragster engine last from 1-7 races, so it gets only 1/4 mile to 1.5 miles. No excuse for that
Performance oriented chevy small blocks can easily last over 200k. There are tons of 300K Corvettes on them with normal oil analyses still going strong. This is a flaw in BMW; poor design actually.
The technologies, power, rpm, and materials vary greatly from engine to engine. While BMW clearly changed the makeup of the rod bearings, you can't at all denounce one engine because of experience from an entirely different one with different specifications and engineering goals.
They've gone soft and heavy. Why not just remake the E30 with modern tech?
That’s great except your sewing machine doesn’t rev to 8400rpm producing over 100bhp/litre 😬
Great video - very informative! I’ve got a 2013 supercharged E92 M3.
Could you briefly advise as to how best to properly carry out the warm-up procedure..?
Jack L
I’d say drive it. Don’t let it sit at idle to warm up like some people say. If it’s an auto, wait around 3 minutes then drive it carefully until up to temp.
Or use 0w40 instead of 10w60 during winter. You're welcome.
or don't drive it during winter too :D
But rod bearings is just a thing you should do if you buy a e92 m3 2nd hand with mileage nearing 100k, cheaper than buying a new engine ;D
U can use 0-40 any season in s65. Mobil 1 0-40 is great for this engine.
@@boji4apa852 0/40 is a sweet spec
Yes. I've seen a couple of different views about this. One person thinks BMW is specifying too heavy of an oil spec. Check out this web page:
540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
How about Rotella T6 5w40?
What he's trying to say is just buy the lexus isf
Agreed. I love the folks saying this is a high strung motor and some kind of pseudo supercar that needs all this care. The best is the claim that owners who bought this car didn't know. But apparently every ISF or AMG owner takes the time to warm their car up always. 130k miles on my ISF without a single issue besides normal maintenance.
@@d1sturb3d119 Yup.. Eurocar fans always have an excuse. Similarly, the excuse for Mercedes' and BMW's poor overall reliability is because they are sophisticated and complicated luxury cars.. And yet, again, Lexus cars are also extremely sophisticated and complex, and still manage to maintain excellent reliability.
@@bliglum Sadly Mercedes was indeed bulletproof while being complicated back in the 90's. I'd still purchase a late 80's early 90's Mercedes without a hint of hesitation. We owned an 1988 E320 back in the day. Little low on power but great handling. Not one issue. Just bullet proof. Even the SEC from that era was fantastic. Then Chrysler bought them over and screwed the whole company. My hope is they get back to being reliable but let see.
@@d1sturb3d119 Yeah, I remember the good Mercedes, I'd say more 80's and before, mid to late 90's is when they started going to crap. My dad sold MB's in the 70's and early 80's. Family car was the W123 300TD. Solid as a tank, vault like doors, and that distinctive sound and interior smell.. Ahh memories... But from what I remember, when we had that in the 90's as a kid, it was pretty solid and reliable. More reliable than the newer Taurus we got to replace it anyways.
Newer ones though... Money pits to own... Very nice lease vehicles for those with heaps of disposable income though!
@@bliglum I search for older mercs in the line up where issues are well documented. If I had more money to throw it would be a fun project. But for now I'll have to stick to cars that can't be killed. My SC400 with a 1uz is kinda frustrating sometimes. It drifts when its cold, when its hot, when its overheating, just whatever lol. Good car with 280k on the clock.
No adjusting involved? Would have been nice to be able to feel that there is no play or stiffness, but that may never be an issue?
The problem isn't the rod bearings, the problem is the main bearings closest to the chain. The chain puts too much tension on the crankshaft making the main bearings closest to the chain work way harder. If you are thinking all you need to do is replace rod bearings to extend the life of your S65/S85 THINK AGAIN. You know how all these shops pull out the rod bearings and look at them on a piece of paper and say "oh yea its great we caught this in time" it's a bunch of bull. Have them take apart the engine completely down to the crankshaft and have them look at the main bearings closest to the chain, THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM! If you actually want your engine to last have them replace both your rod bearings AND your main bearings. Unfortunately you can't just drop the oil pan to replace your main bearings, you need the entire engine taken out and disassembled. BMW Quality!
Great video! I have a late production 2010 M5. Do you think an Oil Analysis across 2 years indicating virtually no wear (Lead or Copper) is sufficient to delay replacing the bearings?
I would be hesitant to ever say an oil analysis was enough info to decide that on, but in theory at least it is better than an analysis that is bad!
Honestly we consider this a service schedule item rather than a problem to be fixed at this point.
Could you please explain the bearing knock on the e46 m3 on what causes them and how to prevent them.
I bought my 08 e92 m3 with 86k miles. Lead content on first oil change was over 30. Next oil change was in the 20s, next was in the teens, now its around 12 at 116,000 miles. Idk how to explain that, but since i've owned it, I always warm it up, never ever go past 3k RPM when the engine is not at operating temp. When I cold start the car, I let the cold start cycle go, then I drive off. Usually only a minute. I take it to redline a few times each week, and do oil changes every 6k miles.
At that mileage we’d really recommend getting your rod bearings changed! 😬 Sounds like you’re doing all the right things for to look after them but that mileage is high!
Is this as common on the N55 . I've heard they are a weak point but not sure if it's something to be majorly co concerned about . 2016 m135i nearly Full history standard 70k
Did you measure the conrod bolt stretch during the tightening process?
I have a question, How are you cleaning the con rod surface before you put the bearing in?
Can the M5's subframe be dropped the same was as that without having to undo all the suspension linkages and steering linkages? That looked really easy!
What about the S54? Would one replacement of bearings and make sure the engine is filling warmed up before operation last the bearings 100k miles? What about thinner oil?
Wow that’s a big job and certainly informative. Thank you. I was originally going for an E92 M3 DCT to replace my E82 135i, but F87 DCT M2 is the target now.
M2 will certainly feel more similar to your 135i with both having Turbo i6’s. Neither are a bad choice!
Evolve Automotive enjoyed both, but preferred the M2 as a daily. M3 lovely emotional engine though.
My 135i has full Birds conversion inc the Quaife LSD. If it’d been a DCT I would have kept.
You video helps though re E92 M3s. I test drove a 13 plate at Barons BMW.
it might sound stupid but will different weight oil help? like switch to 5w60 or 0w60 if there is any?
I know this is really late but would using a lighter weighted oil help no have them go out?
What have you guys heard about BE Bearings? From what I know they worked with the OEM supplier for the original S65/S85 bearings to create a new design with industry standard tolerances to completely rectify this issue.
We choose to use OEM bearings.
Great video!
Are the rod bearing issue bigger on manual cars than DCT cars?
Because the cars with DCT has a 6k redline when cold and the 6MT only has an “suggested” lower redline right?
We haven’t seen any difference between 6MT and DCT, the 6k redline when cold is still way too high to an RPM for when the engine is cold.
Thanks for the answer. It makes sense. Always nice to hear it from someone with real experience.
This video is what I've been looking for! Is this rod bearing issue common to S63(F10 M5) engine as well?? I have one of those and had exactly same rod bearing problem... resulted in engine replacement...
Not what we’d call common, yet. But we have heard of the S63 having bearing failure also. Whether that’s due to a similar reason as this or not is yet to be established.