Good point. I think most comics fail to realize that just cause society changes doesn’t mean you can’t make those jokes anymore. It just means you have to work harder, and not to have lazy punchlines. Then again most comics are scared of the hard work.
I can't argue with work harder. But sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you try a joke can't be saved because society has changed. Rare is the comedian whose whole act is this kind of stuff. Usually we're talking about a couple jokes or a bit. Is it really worth all the trouble of trying to make it acceptable when you've got plenty of other stuff that targets things that need lampooning?
it still goes. What you can say to a Proud Boys meeting differs significantly from what you can say to Gay Pride organizers or Black Lives Matter. You can do whatever you want but if you want a mainstream career you have to adhere to mainstream standards. And that means not only meeting those standards but understanding where they're going because they do change.
My thoughts: I think the "key" here is all about INTENTION. In the case of the Amos and Andy show, it was pretty clear they were promoting some hate there, and trying to get away with saying it was for the sake of "satire," rather than what it actually was. I think we can all make jokes about differences in races, genders, sexual orientation, I don't feel in comedy there is even any real set of rules, except the basic rules of humanity, and being a generally decent person. If the joke or bit is genuinely funny to most people, and the intention is pure satire, and the comic makes it obvious as could be that there is ZERO malicious intent behind it, then I feel it is in most cases ok. I, myself personally try to toe the line a bit, but try and make it clear to everyone that there is no ill will behind my words, ever. Not sure how you feel about this, but am VERY curious for your feedback here. Thanks again for another great vid Jimmy, looking forward to the next! :)
I don't' know if I'd call Amos and Andy hate based. It was more a case of tropes once considered acceptable being seen as racist. It was very minstrel show when it started but was moderated over time because of opposition. I have about 400 episodes and I've listened to them all. To me they poke gentle fun at a cast of characters trying to make their way in the big city. Fibber McGee and Molly is a decent equivalent. But McGee and Molly were white, we knew that's not how white folks behave. But Amos and Andy reinforced negative stereotypes. The intent in both instances may have been fun but when you're trying to gain acceptance in society it doesn't help when you're continually portrayed as ignorant and shiftless. As I've been working through these comments I keep coming back to "Why". Why do we keep trying to defend these jokes? Are they that important? Is there no humour without them? I'd argue no. Most comedians have plenty of great stuff but then get stung when one or two jokes are called out as insensitive. Why did they even go there? Understand, there will always be those who object to things for personal reasons. I had a couple jokes about polio that I took out of my act even though I personally had it when I was two which I think gives me license to say something. No one ever objected but I decided it wasn't worth having to explain when I had plenty of good stuff that didn't require a footnote. Lot more I could say but I've got to end sometime. Really recommend the book Outrageous to you. It will blow your mind.
There isn't one. It's global. And the same things do not necessarily spark outrage. Gay jokes are coming under greater scrutiny in Canada and the U.S. but in some countries it's perfectly okay - or perhaps it's more proper to say not enough of the population has taken the position to object or have been stopped by the risk of government punishments. If conservatives bear the brunt of accusations about woke it's because they've embraced the idea as a way to manipulate public sentiment. To be clear, it's not a phenomena limited to the States, it's all over the place and some are worse than; others. By the way, I'm under no illusions that given the opportunity liberals might be just as guilty. If the concept didn't get such a knee jerk reaction and appeal to their base you wouldn't hear boo about woke.
In watching this video you lose me when you say you think that sometimes censorship is worthwhile. Censorship is not the answer to any of these issues, especially when it comes to comedy. Censorship is only for people that don't want their feelings hurt. What we are missing is a sense of decency that has regressed from generation to generation, especially in the world of comedy. One more thing, I thought you make some valid very points, however, if one were to re-watch this video and replace the word "woke" with "racist" and "right" with "left" , you can see the argument from the other prospective. Both sides of the political isle use polarizing words in a attempt to disarm their opponent and all its does is create more divisiveness. Good thought provoking video.
I love how this has generated such thoughtful response. I thought I made clear I was ambivalent on the subject of censorship. It's one of those things that's easy to take defend in theory. Are there never any limits? Can you swear on Sesame Street? Make jokes about abortion at a family show? If no, then you're enacting selective censorship. Doesn't matter if they're great jokes they're outside the acceptable standards in those two situations. And there's the rub. Where cesnsorship fails is when those who wield it are enforcing a standard that's changed. For instance, the dumb idea that couples had to sleep in twin beds back in the fifties and sixties when the general public thought it was ridiculous. Or how groundbreaking the movie Psycho was because for the first time we saw flushing toiilet. Ridiculous but true. As for decency, it changes with every generation. You can go back to the 1890's and people were aghast about the Flora Dora girls. Unbelievably tame now but that's how change works. One generations horror is another generations meh. I don't like the way f-bombs proliferate but that's too bad for me because one day my objection will be looked back on as naive. And let's face it, why is one word for the same act acceptable while another isn't? I'm going to look like such a dork to future generations. Finally, left, right, up, down politics is a disaster. Yes all sides practice deceit but because the right has dominated the last few years their sins get exposed. The point is you don't hear a lot of discussion when there's disagreement, just a lot of finger pointing followed by name calling. If you want to make changes you've got to take the heat.. Personally, anybody who associates with ANY political party is suspect in my book. Thanks for your comment.
So, nothing funny here at all. Bring back the old jokes. Sometimes just stating the obvious can be funny. Usually though it's a matter of 'Going there'. Woke people suck, quite frankly, and they are destroying comedy. We DON'T need the Thought Police to tell us what is funny and what isn't. You do you and I'll just enjoy myself. 😁😁
The point is whether you realize it or not, the comedy you see and hear today has been shaped by the same forces everyone's complaining about. The old jokes are not coming back. When was the last time you used the n-word on stage (assuming you're not black)? Used to be okay. Or called a Mexican a wetback (forgive me Mexicans but I'm making a point)? You couldn't say that on TV today but Bob Hope told a joke that used that word back in the early 50's. I'm not saying you can't say anything, I'm saying we're in a period of transition and things are changing. The old times aren't gone they've just evolved. You should do you, but it's a good idea to be socially aware so you don't find yourself in twenty years time going, maybe I should have been somebody else. By the bye, this is not a blanket kiss-up to those who complain about comedy because frankly, a lot of them are ill-informed jerks. But there's some who make a good argument too.
There is a huge difference between comedy and bullying. The Jester was allowed to ridicule the Kings. You can ridicule up...when you ridicule down. you are a bully.
No question. But what if you don't know you're punching down because the standards have changed? Back in the fifties it was still okay to make fun of the Japanese. The thing is it didn't just switch over one day from making fun of them to no longer being appropriate. There was a long period of transition. Those who didn't change in a timely fashion got left behind. See, The Simpsons, Season 9, Episode 15, The Last Temptation of Krusty. Essentially, that's what happened.
We don't decide down, society does. It's not an on/off switch, it's a gradual shift in attitude. For some causes we're currently in the transitional phase. Some will wither away but others will have legs and reach critical mass when that's just the way it is now. Didn't used to be that way but this is the new now. @@rmoz2729
@@jimordowich3838 hmm, not really. There has always been a societal hierarchy, as pointed out that there are kings and jesters. However, to suggest that comedy, which is incredibly inclusive, somehow operates as pursuing victims is odd. Yes, there is cruelty but that comes with tyranny. If the king hits the jester then we have tyranny. The most recent example was an actor hitting a comedian at an awards ceremony for a joke. That is punching down and that is what the term means. A comedian is the local fool, finding humour in things to reduce tension.
![ตีสิบเดย์ [FULL] | เปิดใจ "อาจารย์ เบียร์ ฅนตื่นธรรม" นักสนทนาธรรมสายดุดัน!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqaBI_mnoDk/mqdefault.jpg)
Jimmy, so glad to see you on TH-cam good sir! These videos are all awesome. Appreciate you taking the time to put these out into the world!
I had no idea Amos and Andy were white, you WOKE me up
When it made the transition to TV the cast was black but by then the backlash was so strong it didn't last.
Good point. I think most comics fail to realize that just cause society changes doesn’t mean you can’t make those jokes anymore. It just means you have to work harder, and not to have lazy punchlines. Then again most comics are scared of the hard work.
I can't argue with work harder. But sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you try a joke can't be saved because society has changed. Rare is the comedian whose whole act is this kind of stuff. Usually we're talking about a couple jokes or a bit. Is it really worth all the trouble of trying to make it acceptable when you've got plenty of other stuff that targets things that need lampooning?
Whatever happened to different strokes for different folx?
it still goes. What you can say to a Proud Boys meeting differs significantly from what you can say to Gay Pride organizers or Black Lives Matter. You can do whatever you want but if you want a mainstream career you have to adhere to mainstream standards. And that means not only meeting those standards but understanding where they're going because they do change.
My thoughts:
I think the "key" here is all about INTENTION. In the case of the Amos and Andy show, it was pretty clear they were promoting some hate there, and trying to get away with saying it was for the sake of "satire," rather than what it actually was. I think we can all make jokes about differences in races, genders, sexual orientation, I don't feel in comedy there is even any real set of rules, except the basic rules of humanity, and being a generally decent person. If the joke or bit is genuinely funny to most people, and the intention is pure satire, and the comic makes it obvious as could be that there is ZERO malicious intent behind it, then I feel it is in most cases ok.
I, myself personally try to toe the line a bit, but try and make it clear to everyone that there is no ill will behind my words, ever. Not sure how you feel about this, but am VERY curious for your feedback here. Thanks again for another great vid Jimmy, looking forward to the next! :)
I don't' know if I'd call Amos and Andy hate based. It was more a case of tropes once considered acceptable being seen as racist. It was very minstrel show when it started but was moderated over time because of opposition. I have about 400 episodes and I've listened to them all. To me they poke gentle fun at a cast of characters trying to make their way in the big city. Fibber McGee and Molly is a decent equivalent. But McGee and Molly were white, we knew that's not how white folks behave. But Amos and Andy reinforced negative stereotypes. The intent in both instances may have been fun but when you're trying to gain acceptance in society it doesn't help when you're continually portrayed as ignorant and shiftless. As I've been working through these comments I keep coming back to "Why". Why do we keep trying to defend these jokes? Are they that important? Is there no humour without them? I'd argue no. Most comedians have plenty of great stuff but then get stung when one or two jokes are called out as insensitive. Why did they even go there? Understand, there will always be those who object to things for personal reasons. I had a couple jokes about polio that I took out of my act even though I personally had it when I was two which I think gives me license to say something. No one ever objected but I decided it wasn't worth having to explain when I had plenty of good stuff that didn't require a footnote. Lot more I could say but I've got to end sometime. Really recommend the book Outrageous to you. It will blow your mind.
How do you feel about the border? Is woke only something conservatives suffer from?.?
There isn't one. It's global. And the same things do not necessarily spark outrage. Gay jokes are coming under greater scrutiny in Canada and the U.S. but in some countries it's perfectly okay - or perhaps it's more proper to say not enough of the population has taken the position to object or have been stopped by the risk of government punishments. If conservatives bear the brunt of accusations about woke it's because they've embraced the idea as a way to manipulate public sentiment. To be clear, it's not a phenomena limited to the States, it's all over the place and some are worse than; others. By the way, I'm under no illusions that given the opportunity liberals might be just as guilty. If the concept didn't get such a knee jerk reaction and appeal to their base you wouldn't hear boo about woke.
In watching this video you lose me when you say you think that sometimes censorship is worthwhile. Censorship is not the answer to any of these issues, especially when it comes to comedy. Censorship is only for people that don't want their feelings hurt. What we are missing is a sense of decency that has regressed from generation to generation, especially in the world of comedy.
One more thing, I thought you make some valid very points, however, if one were to re-watch this video and replace the word "woke" with "racist" and "right" with "left" , you can see the argument from the other prospective. Both sides of the political isle use polarizing words in a attempt to disarm their opponent and all its does is create more divisiveness. Good thought provoking video.
I love how this has generated such thoughtful response. I thought I made clear I was ambivalent on the subject of censorship. It's one of those things that's easy to take defend in theory. Are there never any limits? Can you swear on Sesame Street? Make jokes about abortion at a family show? If no, then you're enacting selective censorship. Doesn't matter if they're great jokes they're outside the acceptable standards in those two situations. And there's the rub. Where cesnsorship fails is when those who wield it are enforcing a standard that's changed. For instance, the dumb idea that couples had to sleep in twin beds back in the fifties and sixties when the general public thought it was ridiculous. Or how groundbreaking the movie Psycho was because for the first time we saw flushing toiilet. Ridiculous but true.
As for decency, it changes with every generation. You can go back to the 1890's and people were aghast about the Flora Dora girls. Unbelievably tame now but that's how change works. One generations horror is another generations meh. I don't like the way f-bombs proliferate but that's too bad for me because one day my objection will be looked back on as naive. And let's face it, why is one word for the same act acceptable while another isn't? I'm going to look like such a dork to future generations.
Finally, left, right, up, down politics is a disaster. Yes all sides practice deceit but because the right has dominated the last few years their sins get exposed. The point is you don't hear a lot of discussion when there's disagreement, just a lot of finger pointing followed by name calling. If you want to make changes you've got to take the heat.. Personally, anybody who associates with ANY political party is suspect in my book.
Thanks for your comment.
So, nothing funny here at all. Bring back the old jokes.
Sometimes just stating the obvious can be funny. Usually though it's a matter of 'Going there'.
Woke people suck, quite frankly, and they are destroying comedy. We DON'T need the Thought Police to tell us what is funny and what isn't. You do you and I'll just enjoy myself. 😁😁
The point is whether you realize it or not, the comedy you see and hear today has been shaped by the same forces everyone's complaining about. The old jokes are not coming back. When was the last time you used the n-word on stage (assuming you're not black)? Used to be okay. Or called a Mexican a wetback (forgive me Mexicans but I'm making a point)? You couldn't say that on TV today but Bob Hope told a joke that used that word back in the early 50's. I'm not saying you can't say anything, I'm saying we're in a period of transition and things are changing. The old times aren't gone they've just evolved. You should do you, but it's a good idea to be socially aware so you don't find yourself in twenty years time going, maybe I should have been somebody else. By the bye, this is not a blanket kiss-up to those who complain about comedy because frankly, a lot of them are ill-informed jerks. But there's some who make a good argument too.
Not sure your explanation of woke was quite right, interesting video though, thank you
There is a huge difference between comedy and bullying. The Jester was allowed to ridicule the Kings. You can ridicule up...when you ridicule down. you are a bully.
No question. But what if you don't know you're punching down because the standards have changed? Back in the fifties it was still okay to make fun of the Japanese. The thing is it didn't just switch over one day from making fun of them to no longer being appropriate. There was a long period of transition. Those who didn't change in a timely fashion got left behind. See, The Simpsons, Season 9, Episode 15, The Last Temptation of Krusty. Essentially, that's what happened.
So define ‘down’. There are people lesser than you? That’s a bit arrogant.
We don't decide down, society does. It's not an on/off switch, it's a gradual shift in attitude. For some causes we're currently in the transitional phase. Some will wither away but others will have legs and reach critical mass when that's just the way it is now. Didn't used to be that way but this is the new now. @@rmoz2729
@@jimordowich3838 hmm, not really. There has always been a societal hierarchy, as pointed out that there are kings and jesters. However, to suggest that comedy, which is incredibly inclusive, somehow operates as pursuing victims is odd. Yes, there is cruelty but that comes with tyranny. If the king hits the jester then we have tyranny. The most recent example was an actor hitting a comedian at an awards ceremony for a joke. That is punching down and that is what the term means. A comedian is the local fool, finding humour in things to reduce tension.
Interesting and deeper than the scope of what to do about woke. @@rmoz2729
It’s okay to make fun of people. It’s not okay to degrade them.
True. But in some instances that's not how it'll be perceived because the subject is so toxic.
Lol, horseshit
Glad you enjoyed it. That’s what I was going for.