I'll try it here: @Shannon Q is there a place where I can get a transcript of what you said about consciousness and emergent properties?? You said it so well - you are so articulate. It's so much better than what I usually say: "When was the last time a rock spoke to you?" Love you Shannon - you have helped me so much. 💜
No wonder Matt loses his temper. He gives a well thought out , clear explanation of his position and the caller replies, " ummm, yeah. I wanted to ask a question " , and then proceeds to ask an unrelated question in a tone and with a connotation that makes it obvious that he wasn't listening at all. How rude.
2:48 - Dominic in Cali - Proof of existence of God due to objective morality. 26:30 - Tim in Cali - A belief in God is a mental disability. 36:48 - John in Sweden - Meaning of life. 57:08 - ACA AD 58:44 - Isaiah in Nevada - Spirituality. 1:10:52 - Anthony in Virginia - Naturalism vs Intelligent design. 1:17:48 - Patrick in Florida - Panprotopsychism could be God. 1:27:42 - Don in Ohio - When Matt and Shannon says “we” determine morality, who is the “we” we are talking about.
Tim. A delusion is a belief outside of the cultural or educational norms wide spread in a community. The DSM would agree. Believing a religion is about misinformation and societal reinforcement. Although, I would not hold SQ’s conviction, so emphatically. When one can’t resolve cognitive dissonance in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of a belief, I am not so sure. Say, the absence of evidence of the Exodus, when the history of Egypt is well-known. In this circumstance, there does seem to be a form of obsessional attachment. Cognitive acceptance of the credible in a society would seem rational. The Sun revolves around the Earth. The Earth revolves around the Sun. The Earth and Sun revolve around the barycentre of the mass of the Solar System. Depends on knowledge. But, if one knows the universe was too hot for photons in the very early universe: To continue to believe in Genesis seems irrational. There wasn’t light. Some form of cognitive defence mechanism, seems to be in operation, in the aforementioned case. Mental illness? Depends.
During his call, John (from Sweden) said something that very much resonated with me. He said that, "people don't love you for you... they love you for who they want you to be." I have felt that way in far too many relationships, where I've hidden how I felt and what I thought, in the hopes that I would be acceptable to someone. I truly hope that John is able to keep moving forward even with the way his parents reacted to his loss of beliefs.
I like alnost every host that has ever been on this show. But Shannon Q is the only one that is right up there with Matt. Her knowledge, debate skills and humor are awesome.
Yep, I can see Matt likes to host with her, the no bullshit brigade. She, like Matt, are the few who don’t allow time wasting preaching. Not to shame others, and every one has different methods, some choose the polite rout which I admire. But we’re watching an atheist call in show! 😂
She's more of a heavyweight atheist too I put Matt in the same category as Christopher Hitchens he's a very heavy attacking atheist for sure. I think it was Phil Ferguson was more of a lighter weight one. Aran Ra is another heavy weight also
Totally agree I love all the hosts but, if I see it's Shannon and Matt together I watch right away lol no waiting till later because they are must see separately but together they bring the show to God level...and j mike isn't to far behind them in the must watch scale!!
@@adrianmetzler2523 the crazy part about it is, when Shannon Q first started hosting atheist shows , she was so sweet and timet with these callers, and those callers used to bully her furiously .in addition when she started hosting shows with Matt, a little bit of him rubbed off on her. that was a good thing because, it made her a better debater and way more aggressive with these callers😄👍
To John from Sweden: My heart goes out to you. I hope your family come to their senses and prioritize people, including you, over dogma. In the meantime, you have your integrity. All the best to you!
John, WI Episode 21.26 JOHN: "I'm not going to lie, I'm probably not going to change my entire perspective, based on this one call in" MATT: "I wouldn't have expected that. Actually I would be very skeptical if I had a phone call with somebody, and they dramatically changed their position in the course of a 5,10,15 minute phone call." I'm more than convinced that the John in Sweden, on this show, has done exactly that in the course of two phone calls in two weeks. Listen to them both. It sounds very insincere and just doesn't add up. The first call was all over the place. I think he's a troll of some sort.
Religion: Ignorant men centuries ago with the total science knowledge of a preschooler “making shit up” failing to explain the natural world in order to control the masses w/o one shred of verifiable data or empirical, science-based evidence of any supernatural event or gods while ripping off billions of tax-free dollars from the gullible. Religion is bullshit designed to market an immoral, delusion. You know it and I know it!
My husband and I are gay, so we know exactly how subject the definition of what's a mental illness is. A generation or two earlier, we would have fit the definition, which has been changed in the DSM to now exclude us. Culture could easily change to re-classify us as mentally ill, and plenty of people think we are, but let's be clear that there is no objective definition of any term, and people can use any word to mean what they want. "Dumb" means both "unable to speak" and "stupid." "Gay" means both "happy" and "homosexual." "Christian" is a broad term that may include Mormons, JWs, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc., but if you ask a given Christian if all those are also "Christian," you are likely to be told that they are not. Regardless, it is demonstrably the case that "mentally ill" means, among other things, "significantly believing false or unfalsifiable claims" to some population. Semantics are always subjective, so it's pointless to insist on criteria, especially when the criteria for mental illness significantly included gay people in the not to distant past. The sources that claim the authority to dictate criteria, like the DSM, have a historically bigoted track record, so let's not try to argue from authority here. If authority decides semantics than the authorities who might declare homosexuality a mental illness would be correct.
I agree, it is a slippery slope to categorize people like that and I am glad we are slowly moving away from it. Were you and your husband persecuted that way?
Let’s all be thankful that with God’s objective morality, slavery is moral and you can beat your male and female slaves - no minimum age requirement either - to death as long as they linger for a day. And the best part: you don’t even need a reason or a justification to beat them!
The justification is employee disobedience, but of course that's not justified. Moral objectivety precludes any use of morality in the mythological afterlife because the required scale to define morality no longer applicably exists. You can't have good morality without bad or evil morality. No moral choice, so why have it now? To suggest a God is morally omnibelevilent, is to suggest this God is not the complete author of all reality because It has an oppositional nature to Itself. Religion completely misrepresents the use of morality and it's overall importance.
@@fredbmurphy Never heard of morality discussed re the christian afterlife. It's pretty much a blank slate as to how it's even supposed to work in the first place, beyond getting to kiss god's ass for all eternity. I suspect not having to die is all the motivation required to prefer the belief.
He’s also “pro abortion” as long as it’s the husbands choice. And his suspicion of his property cheating on him as more than enough for the court church place to decide. His property must then drink a “potion” or (poison). Then, if she miscarries she’s guilty. I think… can’t remember the whole verse but it starts out “the lord said to Moses” so I’m pretty sure it’s straight from his mouth.
Well we are made by god to “tend the garden” I don’t remember asking to be a gardener for his art… I guess we’re all technically gods slaves or property, and the flood would resemble beating us to a half inch of life, but we didn’t die so he’s innocent. 😂😂😂
I really don't get how people can still be confused about that. It's like they only understand one definition of "fit". Here's an example, two people are floating in the pacific. One is a sumo wrester, the other is a body builder. One of them is more fit and the other is more fit for survival in that environment.
After 40 seconds into Dominc's initial allotted time to build his case: I don't like your chances here. At all. He was totally in the dumpster after the lying to the Nazi's question. He was wrong and tried to wiggle out from having to admit he was wrong. He deliberately made no effort to understand what was explained to him here. Shannon's closing remarks on his call were excellent. And he STILL didn't want to admit he was wrong citing his "phone was cutting out" Nice try, Dominic. You got crushed -and you know it.
It's still rather baffling how many people talk about THE meaning of life when life demonstrably has as many meanings as you can assign it in a lifetime. It's also bizarre that religious people in particular desire that their meaning is assigned by someone else, when the would normally reject even being told whom to marry by a third party. There isn't a meaning of life--there are countless, and you get to enjoy inventing them for yourself just like to get to choose what TV shows to watch or what music you listen to. If you would reject letting a third party choose just one song you listen to over and over for your entire life, you should also reject the concept of a single god-assigned purpose.
Here is one of my favourite meanings of life - "We are a way for the universe to know itself." - Carl Sagan We are here and we get to decide what our purpose is. And we are a piece of the universe looking back at itself, wondering what it is. Some of us find that sooner, some later, but we decide why we are here.
I really can’t understand how a parent can kick their child out over their lack of belief. At the time my kids told me they didn’t believe in God, I was very much a theist. I remember being angry and sad at the news but it didn’t change my love for them. And being a Christian at the time, why would I choose to be unkind to my kids when the example I was supposed to be exemplifying is to treat others kindly?
I think it could be about obedience. To disobey is seen as alack of respect, and if they let one person get away with it, then others may try. Also it may start to cause them to question their own obedience.
Happens. I was living in my parents basement with my wife and 2 year old daughter, trying to get our feet under us financially. When my wife told my dad that Islam and Christianity have a shared history, we were out on our asses, 7 months pregnant. "Whatever you do to the least of these" indeed...
Here's a (rhetorical) question for Dominic: If morals don't apply to beings who can't understand them, how do you deal with humans of limited mental capacity, e.g., someone with Down Syndrome? If someone has an IQ of 60, they can understand many things and communicate, but they might not be able to discern a nuanced scenario where commiting a "wrong" serves the greater good. The fact is that understanding, especially of morality, occurs on a continuum -- it's not binary. The human mind matures over time, and morality is something that takes time to be able to discern. A 3-year-old doesn't think anything is wrong with smacking their sibling when their sibling takes their toy. This is to say nothing of the fact that there are countless examples of moral conundrums where ethics professors and students spend hours discussing the implications of ones choice. It isn't always cut and dried. So, Shannon is right. Morality _is_ subjective and arrived at by deliberation. If it were _objectively_ true, people wouldn't philosophize about it, and the world would be a very different place.
Is Don not aware of secular laws that have been written over the centuries? There was nothing biblical about the majority of them. The ten commandments have been ignored for the most part for centuries as well. The laws from god have been dismissed for roughly about the same amount of time. If you read biblical law, one would conclude it was clearly written by goat herders that had no idea how a properly functioning civilization works.
Can I just say that Shannon's hair color, skin tone, lipstick, eyes, and spectacles are so on point and exquisitely in sync. Mesmerizing, flawless complexion. That hair just glows.
@@morbidmanmusic No you won’t, silly goose. It’s HOW you say it that will get ANYONE yelled at. Though, a lot of the time it’s not yelling…people correct you and you feel attacked.
Caller around 50 minutes. If your parents kicked you out and called you stupid for being a non-believer, consider that you may be better off without such mean people in your life.
True, but it's easier said than done. These are his parents. It's normal to want to maintain the relationship. Just saying, "You are better off without them" is not all that helpful, even if it is true. Cutting those ties takes a process and time. The key is to help him deal with that process and work things out. He'll get there. Either they'll come around, or he'll move on. But in the meantime, the guy could use all the support we can give. Good luck to you, John. I know this sucks.
@@flowingafterglow629 I agree it's easier said than done. "...the guy could use all the support we can give." I agree, which is part of why I suggested he deserves better than people who are mean to him and call him stupid.
I'm sure it wasn't intentionally but the last caller was hilarious, backed into a corner so bad that they had to duck and run from the super-complex question of 'Is it possible to determine good and bad moves if you've set a goal?'
@@Fufiloofa Kinda hard to 'dominate' a debate that you had to run from but whatever he/they have to tell themselves to avoid having to face that his ego prevented him from admitting that he was wrong I guess.
@@Fufiloofa Ah, graduates from the 'knock over the chess pieces, crap on the board and declare yourself the winner' school of debate, how both sad and hilarious.
00:00 Intro 02:47 Dominic-CA | Karma In An Ordered Universe Proves God 26:30 Tim-CA | Is Religious Belief A Psychological Disorder? 36:51 John-(SE) | Meaning Of Life Without God: Why Care About The Future? 58:46 Isaiah-NV | Wooden Desks Give Off 10/10 Positive Vibrations 1:10:54 Anthony-VA | How Did You Determine That God Is The Best Explanation? 1:17:44 Patrick-FL | Pan-Proto-Psychism Offers Evidence For God 1:27:40 Don-OH | Secular Morality Makes Morality Personal 1:37:37 Outro
Dominic, who in many other respects seems quite nice, is a great example of how difficult it can be to effectively communicate with people who are not trained to think...who appear to be incapable of following even the simplest chain of logic....and who are unschooled or unaccustomed to listening with the intent to understand as opposed to merely waiting for their turn to speak. Interacting with such people gives me the internal mental experience of a record needle scratching across the vinyl: Things are going along fine then......."ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiip"!!! Dominic - Lying is ALWAYS wrong. Matt - What about lying to the Nazis to conceal Anne Frank....would that be wrong? Dominic - No Matt - So lying in some situations is not wrong correct? Dominic - Correct Matt - So your list of things that are ALWAYS wrong is wrong correct? Dominic - No ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiip!!!!!!
I agree in principle but I would say that some of the „logic gaps/indecisiveness“ some callers show is also due to the nature of a call-in show, e.g. needing to give quick answers, brake down complex „philosophical“ models in a few sentences and being (rightly) interrupted mid thought for clarification. I believe that his „ALWAYS“ statement was a generalization and therefore impresice/the communication problem, as he stated during the call, that his list of rules was aiming to reduce harm and in consequence would allow breaking the rules for a the „greater good“. If he had replaced the last No with a „Yes, but…“ (you misunderstood my position), Matt’s reaction wouldn’t have been great ether. I don’t say that it was a good argument but that it was internally likely more consistent than you give credit for.
@@ChrischenL I think this is a fair defense of some callers. The format is challenging to say the least. But how it goes and what is likely to happen is readily discoverable by anyone who bothers to watch even a single clip....so it's a bit like saying well gosh, not everyone is prepared to discover there's water in the pool after they jumped in. I might add that Dominique seemed to be operating under the misapprehension that morality is a feature that distinguishes humans from the rest of the animal kingdom and therefore only applies to human beings. He seems to be unaware of the numerous studies that have identified what we would describe as moral inclinations in a variety of animal species. Or put another way, they can behave on the basis of morally laden emotions or what we would describe in ourselves as "moral motivations" e.g. generosity, reciprocity, empathy, fairness, compassion, toleration....along with their negative counterparts such as jealousy, envy, malice, etc. This in itself does not disprove god, but it's strong indicator that our moral senses are more likely a product of nature and the kind of animals we are.
23:18 "I'm having a hard time understanding because my phone is starting to cut out." In other words, you're making excuses rather than just admitting that you lost the argument.
1:12:29 If you riffle shuffle cards perfectly, it will cause the cards to move through the deck in a pattern. From a deck in "new deck" order: - One "out" shuffle will sort cards into red cards and black cards. - Two "out" shuffles will sort cards into suits. - Eight "out" shuffles will return the deck to original order. This type of shuffling could be done accidentally at a higher likelihood then pure chance, but maybe less likely than cheating.
What infuriates me is that they have call-screeners, and lots (or at least several) people on hold, and they go to the complete waste of time and space that is Isaiah the bong-hitter, and actually give him more than 60 seconds. And if that doesn't make me loose faith in humanity enough, the thought that he isn't unique, and that all (or most) Isaiah's of the world are eligible to vote, does. EDIT: And along comes Patrick - FL. Wth are these guys actually feeding themselves?
Ron Williamson: the sad part about it is, sometime I feel sorry for these people because, I used to be where they are until I started thinking for myself .they have been brainwashed into believing this religious nonsense to the point where they don't know how to function without it ,and their religion basically tells them not to think just obey 😡🙏the ideal of a God not existing or their religion being false scares the💩 out of them🥵 and I think for them ,it's a survival mechanism to lash out at people that don't believe in their nonsense. it's a sad existence😔
Religion may not be a psychological disorder, however I believe there are people whose obsession with religion becomes psychologically ‘unhealthy’. For example if you believe you can pray your way to prosperity, that is unhealthy and ludicrously misinformed.
Exactly! When someone is sheltered in authoritarian echo-chamber, where people are told they’re superior to everyone else as long as the obey, they can’t even fathom thinking someone might threaten that feeling of superiority. Guys like Anthony know they don’t have any evidence, just entitlement, so they try desperately to find ways to just gaslight the whole of a field. That way their dogma will be true by default, because you can’t prove something someone says ISN’T true, and that ignorance is used instead of knowledge. Which is why Anthony was so desperate to not really talk about what he believed and why. Just the position he wanted the opposing view to follow to get to a place of “well you can’t prove that everything I say isn’t true!” It’s a circular loop that relies on obedience to said loop on its own authority to the exclusion of anything/everything else. If an outside thought gets in the mix everything is comprised.
This is for John (the guy that got kicked out of the house for coming out as an atheist). What you have to be awared of is that your parents are just tyring to understand you. They just don't get why is it that their son is doing "such a horrible thing." In their minds you are wrong, even though you're not. Now, when it comes to you, you know your're not wrong, so you wish your family could understand that what you're doing has no ill intentions. It's just that they can't see life the way you do right now, and you yourself can no longer see life the way they do. What this is is just a a huge, huge, huge, case of misunderstandings because of miscommunication. And when miscommunication is the problem, communication is the solution. The thing is that your parents are not ready to have that honest conversation about God yet, even if you are. So, here is the best thing you can do right now. Somehow you need to communicate with them and let them know that your intentions are not bad, that you don't want to hurt anybody and that the only thing you want to do is to be honest. Tell them you don't want to lie to them anymore and that you're ready to have an honest conversation about it when they are ready to have that honest conversation too. Now, that will absolutetly not fix things for you or for them right there and there, but what it will do is that every time they think about "how crazy you are" and how they are "obviously right" they will remember that you are being honest about it and that they are avoiding that honest conversation. Every time they think about it, they will know it's now on them to have that honest conversation and not on you, which in turn makes them be a bit more open about it. Now, when you do have that conversation with either one of your partents, BE RESPECFUL, BE LOVING. The trick is in making them understand that they are not stupid or crazy to believe in what they believe in, but that they may be wrong even though you understand they have good intentions. Make them understand that other people with good intentions also believe in other gods they themselves don't believe in and that people with good intentions can be wrong about what god is real or what god is fake. Be honest during that conversation, be kind, and when you feel like they are under too much pressure, give them a break. Tell them they should think about it since it's a complex topic and then move to a different topic. If you do that, over time they will know for certain that you are the most honest person they know when it comes to that topic. They may even reach out to you to ask you what you're take is on things they've always wondered about. All the athiests I know of, including myself, have had a very, very tough time right after we came out to our families, but in pretty much every case things get much and much better over time regardless of the initial reactions. So, I know it's tough right now, John, but don't you give up on it, your parents need your help even though they don't even know that right now. One last thing, thank you! Thank you for being part of a change that little by little will allow future generations be more honest about this topic without having to split from the people they love. Thanks, John!
I didn't read your whole post, just making comment that kicking your kids out because they don't believe in the same things is NO excusethere is NO excuse. It actually demonstrates the immorality of the belief system they have instilled into their children. And they are too blinded by the bullshit to see it.
He thought about Ethics for like 67 seconds and assumed he had an entire branch of philosophy that's been debated for thousands of years all figured out.
I genuinely struggle to imagine reaching adulthood without realising there are situations where lying is by far the more moral choice than telling the truth, how dangerous would such a person be? Of course Dominic isn’t actually one of them because he conceded that it’s situational, just showed up to the show never having given it enough thought to realise his own views negated the claims he was about to make.
@@gavsmith1980 Unfortunately most people are so unaware of other ways of thinking they feel personally attacked when it’s mentioned. If you say “in some circumstances it may be better to lie, to save a life” most people will say “so you’re saying it’s okay to lie for a convicted serial rapist so he’s not incarcerated/executed?”. It’s always extremes anymore. If one person does something, then everyone else gets to do it, otherwise it’s biased against them. There’s no context. In fact we’ve got many people who are already cool with lying. If a politician, actor, or other elite someone likes is caught lying, even if it’s to them, they’ll just ignore it because “you don’t think everyone else lies?!”
Yep, I walk through jungles ignoring the millions of insects and animals violently killing each other like all life forms have to do in nature, in order to continue to be life forms, as well as ignoring the violent tsunami ripping the trees apart and heading towards me. It’s just so peaceful for me.
Anthony falls flat on his face with his opening question - "If it could be demonstrated that it is extremely unlikely that the unaided forces of nature could have produced life and its diversification..." That is something that creationists cannot demonstrate and have never demonstrated. Game over.
Also "extremely unlikely" does not mean impossible. Also, those odds grow in relation to the size of the pool. If I ask you once to guess what card I'm holding up, your odds at getting it right are low, however, if I ask you 52 times your chances are 100% So, in a universe with trillions of stars and many times that planets orbiting those stars, the odds of the elements necessary for the evolution of life increases. And yes, you are correct, 1) even if evolution was wrong, it doesn't resolve into an automatic "therefore god". The god preposition would have to be proven first. 2) All evidence does point to evolution, and there isn't any that points to a god.
@@xelasomar4614 The possibility that you worked yourself into a pretzel constructing to save stupid evolution’s worthless hide ... is the same kind of possibility that you resolutely, if stupidly, fight tooth and nail to deny theists and deists ... especially the luckiest of those, Christians. There .... now work yourself into another pretzel trying to decouple yourself from the idea that you often fight. 🙂 And now, as Oscar would say to those he likes most ... have a rotten day ! ✨Jesus is Lord.🌟
@@gherieg.1091 The fact that what is plain and easy logic seems so convoluted to you as to be "pretzel" like, speaks volumes about how religious belief has impaired yours. There is nothing to deny theist as there is nothing that they have offered as evidence for their beliefs. Now if you want to put up your evidence, I'll be happy to discuss it. Cheers.
@@gherieg.1091 ohhhhh your funny! Just to be clear, your ignorance doesn't conclude that your god exists. But if it makes you happy to believe in her without any tangible evidence, then so be it. But maybe you should refrain from arrogantly displaying your ignorance to the world until you can cough up the proof.
Patrick, I believe that there's a proto consciousness in that bong bowl you hit from before calling this show. It's like, totally real dude, wow, how do those colors taste? Can hear the light too?
While not all religious belief is connected to mental illness, some is. One can, because of mental illness, behave religiously. Mental illness and religiosity are not co-equal, but neither are they mutually exclusive.
23:10- "Ok...., I'm starting to have a hard time to understand you, my phone's starting to cut out." Translation: "I have no idea what I'm talking about and you two made me look like a fool."
Matt likes to say that he didn't get any smarter when he stopped believing in gods, which is sad, because I got much smarter and kept getting smarter. The number of thoughts I was able to think used to be so small, and I had no idea how to think logically or even question authority, which was taboo. When I ceased to believe there was a man who could read my mind and would someday punish me for how my brain worked, I found myself able to think critically and reason in ways that were never possible before. I was learning like I'd never learned and making decisions more productive than any I'd previously made in my entire life. I'm not remotely embarrassed to admit how stupid religion and belief in a god made me. I could not be proud of my growth if I couldn't admit that I was demonstrably less intelligent in the past.
In my understanding of intelligence, you didn't get smarter. That does not preclude intellectual growth or development. I view intelligence as the "upper bound" of what my brain is capable of. Not enough sleep can lead to meeting that. Incorrect beliefs can as well. If I learn something new, the incorrect belief no longer gets in my way. Same with a good night's sleep. So I can learn something new, and move forward. My point is, I think Matt may simply be defining "smarter" differently than you. Because even when I don't think I have gotten any smarter, I can identify ways that my knowledge, depth, and nuance have grown.
As was shown in this spisode, it's not even a meaningful concept. Absolute morality? Matt's example of acceptable lying means you have a hard time finding absolutes. Unless, of course, your absolutes are so specific to each situation that they have no guidance at all. We have absolute morality, but the morality of each action has to be evaluated individually based on the situation? If that is absolute morality, the concept is meaningless.
I want to ask Matt a question. "Says stuff Shannon is best equipped to answer"... Thank you Matt and your crew.. I'm so sorry that you're not getting the attention you deserve Shannon
Anthony-VA ID/ creationism is simple special pleading: i.e. A simple mechanism that can produce complexity cannot possibly exist without something to plan it, but an extremely complex mechanism can just exist without something to plan it. Creationism/ ID is just kicking the improbability can down the road to an exponentially greater improbability.
The thing about the coordinates of the Great Pyramids aligning with the speed of light was adressed in one of Vsauce's old videos ("Spooky Coincidences?", i think). It boils down to you getting to pick where the decimal point of the coordinates are and also that if you want to make them align you get to a level of precision that's basically meaningless (on the order of inches, if I remember correctly). Also, keep in mind that the way we defined latitude and longitude was arbitrary as we set a full turn as 360°. So if you start from the Equator, the North Pole is at 90°. We could've picked any number other than 360, and the "amazing coincidence" would not work. Also also remember that the reference to longitude (Greenwich) is very very arbitrary and not especial at all! Sorry for the long comment xb Edit - the thing about Greenwich isn't relevant because latitude is where the coincidence is, but I'll leave it anyway
Did Patrick really say that “they” just discovered something that demonstrates consciousness exists after death? Does he think he could’ve possibly been the first one to tell them about that, even though it’s “cutting-edge science that’s hard to keep up with”? Why didn’t he start with that?! What was all that preamble nonsense, trying to throw every pseudo-philosophical/scientific thing together to obfuscate? It was funny though when they asked what it was that demonstrated consciousness after death, and he said “cutting edge science that I can’t understand” even though he claimed definitively that “they found out that consciousness exists after death”. Meaning of course that he can’t understand what he’s saying, but it is a fact that he makes his whole foundation with.
Shannon's opinion about religious beliefs not rising to the level of a mental illness is not supported by fact. The symptoms match a delusional disorder to a T. It's simply that it's an accepted condition in most cultures, being the norm. And as always, the distinction between an annoyance and an illness is a matter of degree. Once delusional religious beliefs start influencing every aspect of life, it's safe to conclude there's a disorder affecting the individual.
Don gets steered into corner after corner, First by Matt, then by Shannon. Will do everything he can to not let on what the hosts are saying is right. Don's credo " I Shall Not Be Corrected!
If john cares about what happens to his son while John is alive, why would John need a god or an after life to, right now, care about what happens to his son when John is no longer around?
Shanon this is the DSM V definition of a delusion: “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence”. How is religion not a delusion?
Yeah, I was really surprised by how passionate she got about this. I mean, Richard Dawkins's book is named The God Delusion. It helped an awful lot of people see their way out, through the paradigm of delusion, and continues to do so many
Elroy Foster I'm trying to decide whether to message them or not. As a Disability Advocate as a part of my job for years I feel I have to say something, but don't want to get banned. The fact that they said you can't call a religious person mentally ill because having a belief doesn't mean they are "defective" is beyond horrifying for the Mental Health Community. These people claim great knowledge, and then they say something like that. I really don't know what to do, but they should be called out. People with mental illness are NOT "defective" and to ever use that word is unforgivable. You are also correct. Matt made the comment that he "was not mentally ill when he believed and then suddenly was cured" is also hugely problematic. If he had a delusion, and then did not, he is in actuality "cured" of that delusion. The fact that religious people get a pass due to numbers is also inexcusable. And Shannon's comment that it was "human and natural" is beyond belief. YOU are correct. Their stance is entirely hypocritical.
@@littlebitofhope1489 I hope you do message them. I hope a good faith message from a professional wouldn't lead to getting banned. If it did, that would be a sad thing.
@@VesnaVK I'm having a hard time understand this. They are using the same type of argument theists use, and they are so passionate about it. That makes it so much worse. This kind of language does so much damage, and they owe that community a public apology, and they should recognize their error themselves. If they don't, then it really wasn't just a single episode of bad judgement.
@@littlebitofhope1489 agreed. I've seen them go off like this on other topics, as well. But this is really the signature, foundational issue of the movement, arguably.
I was wondering if something like emotional abuse was a part of assault. It's not legally... and if it's not in his mind, I'd say that's missing from the list.
I love how someone called in to Talk Heathen to scream about how “the world is perfect for us, therefor god is a terrible straw man argument that no theist has ever made! That’s bullshit!” And then the first caller literally made that argument. 😂
"Matt Dilahunty , what is your legacy? What have you left to the world?" "I have a t- shirt saying YOU'RE DONE!..... Oh and I also helped lots of people leave toxic ideas and taught logic and reason to the masses.... but man, that t shirt!" At least that's how I imagine the conversation would go😁
I believe there is more than enough evidence that "human nature" includes the very strong desire to seek out and trust a "higher authority", at least until maturity. It's part of parent bonding.
I noticed that too. As if it weren’t frustrating enough to have people like that and what they say, we’ve also got a host who occasionally responds to what they didn’t say anyway.
I'd really like Matt to request examples and details from the people who disagree with him so that it can be clearly explored and shown where the differences lie rather than hanging up or otherwise shutting the person down. For instance on the final call the Matt could have asked the caller to give him an example of where you cannot identify if an action is helpful or not in respect to a goal for morality. Then they could have discussed it and highlighted where the guy was going wrong or where they were talking past each other.
Hug to John.. your brave i hope your parents will see their folly. We as a species are cable of so much compassion for the ones we have relationships with.
I don't think religious beliefs are a mental disorder in itself. But, I have found in my first hand experience over 40 years is every person I have met with religious beliefs also have psychological or mental disorders.
I have found a lot of "off" people have strong beliefs in a lot of things, conspiracy theories, religion, etc. I do think that less intelligent people tend to be more religious as they lack good critical thinking skills. Doesn't mean smart people can't be religious, just less of them are.
Highly improbable does not mean impossible. It is highly improbable that if I pick up a phones receiver (an antiquated piece of equipment) to call someone, that person is already on the line calling me. It is improbable, but it is not impossible, and it has happened. It is highly improbable that as I open the door to exit a building, someone else is on the other side, opening the door to enter the building. It has and does happen. However improbable something may be, that does not make it impossible.
I once saw a poker hand where someone had quad A's (very rare) and another player had a Royal Flush (even more rare). The chances of each hand showing up at a table with 8 players is very improbable but to get both of them in the same hand is very very very improbable. But it happened. The problem with these people is that you can never know if they have gone far enough to try and find the thing you are looking for, in order to conclude that it could not have happened any other way. They have no base to judge probability.
wait...wait...wait...what are you talking about at 1:28:00? I thought that the Earth was flat and the sun (and the moon) swung around the Earth on a pendulum??
John said he knows what survival of the fittest means, then turned right around and proved he didn't have any idea what it means. He seems to think it means the strongest or something.
Ahhh yes. Another hour and 40 mins of ignorant, dishonest, incredulous, patronising, deluded theists and Matt and Shannon making sound logical arguments.
Belief in God is similar to belief in other basic truths, such as belief in other minds or perception,seeing a tree, or memory, belief in the past, In all these instances, you trust your cognitive faculties, although you cannot prove the truth of the belief in question. Similarly, people take certain propositions,e.g., the existence of the world, as a basic and others as derivative from these basic propositions. Believers, it is argued, take the existence of God as a basic proposition.
Regarding John, the second caller.... I keep on getting revolted over and over again by parents, who kick out their children, who just became atheists.... Such control, disrespect and cruelty from SO CALLED loving parents!!!!! Well... good luck John, in your new life of reason and decency... the freedom you just acquired is invaluable..... try to remember that.....
There is no hate like Christian love. If I had children that became religious I could not abandon them or disown them. Christopher Hitchens was right when he says religion makes good people do monstrously evil things.
@@fishjj76 I can't really think of anything that my kids could do that would make me kick them out. Even if they stole from me to feed a drug habit I'd still love and take care of them.
I still fail to understand Matt's argument about chess. I mean, yes, if we arbitrarily determine the rules of chess, then we can objectively determine what are good or bad moves. That doesn't explain why should we agree on chess rules in the first place. They are arbitrary. Similarly, if we agree on goal of well-being, then we can objectively determine what is good and bad, regarding that goal. Sure. That doesn't explain why we should agree on goal of well-being. I agree everyone cares for his own well-being, but Matt is arguing that we should agree on goal of well-being for all, without explaining why we should care for others. Specifically, why should we agree to make the world a better place for everyone, if the situation is such that we have opportunity to increase our well-being at the expense of others? For example, slave owner makes the world worse for slaves, but his well-being is increased by slavery, so why should he agree on arbitrary goal of well-being for everyone?
@@goranmilic442 If the goal is to make world better place to everyone, not just some people, then we should care wellbeing of everyone. And ain't wellbeing of everyone then be better goal than make just slave owners wellbeing priority because then we don't even need slave owners and that individual can achieve wellbeing without being slave owner in this model also!
@@almightybunny3320 Your first sentence is just a tautology. If we wish to make a world better place for everyone, then we should care for everyone's well-being. You completely avoided to answer my question - why should we want to make the world better place for everyone, not just for ourself? If slave owner has huge wealth because of the slaves he owns, why should he stop being slave owner? (Please, don't get me wrong, I think slavery is wrong, I just fear Matt is not explaining it well with chess analogy.)
@@goranmilic442 My point was that making world better place to everyone we make it better ourselfs also and we all benefit that! Making it better just one group doesn't make it better nor necessary more beneficial to anyone because what if slave owner become slave or you don't belong that "better group" anymore? Risks are more bigger that kind of world than world which we try to make things better to us all!
Thanks for watching!
You and Matt are the dream team.
@@Mauricio_Magus agreed.
Thanks for hosting!
I'll try it here:
@Shannon Q is there a place where I can get a transcript of what you said about consciousness and emergent properties?? You said it so well - you are so articulate.
It's so much better than what I usually say: "When was the last time a rock spoke to you?"
Love you Shannon - you have helped me so much. 💜
My favourite combo of two awesome humans!!!
No wonder Matt loses his temper. He gives a well thought out , clear explanation of his position and the caller replies, " ummm, yeah. I wanted to ask a question " , and then proceeds to ask an unrelated question in a tone and with a connotation that makes it obvious that he wasn't listening at all. How rude.
This is like 80% plus of theist callers lol. Well maybe not that high but when it happens it’s so cringe and frustrating.
"People don't love you for you, they love you for what they want you to be." - Wow, that is a really insightful thought. Thank You John.
Yes. They said it so eloquently.
That's why dogs are a man's best friend.
Unconditional love is conditional. The real thing doesn't exist
@@holgerlubotzki3469 If dogs were slightly smarter, they probably wouldn't want anything to do with a lot of us. 😁
2:48 - Dominic in Cali - Proof of existence of God due to objective morality.
26:30 - Tim in Cali - A belief in God is a mental disability.
36:48 - John in Sweden - Meaning of life.
57:08 - ACA AD
58:44 - Isaiah in Nevada - Spirituality.
1:10:52 - Anthony in Virginia - Naturalism vs Intelligent design.
1:17:48 - Patrick in Florida - Panprotopsychism could be God.
1:27:42 - Don in Ohio - When Matt and Shannon says “we” determine morality, who is the “we” we are talking about.
Thank you LN!
@@kayb9979 thank you sir! very much appreciated.
Tim. A delusion is a belief outside of the cultural or educational norms wide spread in a community. The DSM would agree. Believing a religion is about misinformation and societal reinforcement. Although, I would not hold SQ’s conviction, so emphatically. When one can’t resolve cognitive dissonance in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of a belief, I am not so sure. Say, the absence of evidence of the Exodus, when the history of Egypt is well-known. In this circumstance, there does seem to be a form of obsessional attachment.
Cognitive acceptance of the credible in a society would seem rational. The Sun revolves around the Earth. The Earth revolves around the Sun. The Earth and Sun revolve around the barycentre of the mass of the Solar System. Depends on knowledge. But, if one knows the universe was too hot for photons in the very early universe: To continue to believe in Genesis seems irrational. There wasn’t light. Some form of cognitive defence mechanism, seems to be in operation, in the aforementioned case. Mental illness? Depends.
Isiaah - I was thinking about the bong when Matt said it.
Mwahahahahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for the timestamps!
Dominic: “Let’s not call it a god”. He was the one claiming he could prove a god.
During his call, John (from Sweden) said something that very much resonated with me. He said that, "people don't love you for you... they love you for who they want you to be." I have felt that way in far too many relationships, where I've hidden how I felt and what I thought, in the hopes that I would be acceptable to someone.
I truly hope that John is able to keep moving forward even with the way his parents reacted to his loss of beliefs.
I have subjectively decided that this combination of hosts is the ultimate standard.
Agreed
Agreed 👍
Indeed.
I this because of the heavy influx of Muslims and it being Ramadan Ahmud is a great co-host with Matt.
It is objectively true that Matt is best host.
I like alnost every host that has ever been on this show. But Shannon Q is the only one that is right up there with Matt. Her knowledge, debate skills and humor are awesome.
yup, agreed. shannon and matt are the starting squad
Yep, I can see Matt likes to host with her, the no bullshit brigade. She, like Matt, are the few who don’t allow time wasting preaching. Not to shame others, and every one has different methods, some choose the polite rout which I admire. But we’re watching an atheist call in show! 😂
She's more of a heavyweight atheist too I put Matt in the same category as Christopher Hitchens he's a very heavy attacking atheist for sure. I think it was Phil Ferguson was more of a lighter weight one. Aran Ra is another heavy weight also
Totally agree I love all the hosts but, if I see it's Shannon and Matt together I watch right away lol no waiting till later because they are must see separately but together they bring the show to God level...and j mike isn't to far behind them in the must watch scale!!
@@adrianmetzler2523 the crazy part about it is, when Shannon Q first started hosting atheist shows , she was so sweet and timet with these callers, and those callers used to bully her furiously .in addition when she started hosting shows with Matt, a little bit of him rubbed off on her. that was a good thing because, it made her a better debater and way more aggressive with these callers😄👍
To John from Sweden:
My heart goes out to you. I hope your family come to their senses and prioritize people, including you, over dogma. In the meantime, you have your integrity. All the best to you!
At least they just kicked him out they were supposed to kill him for being an apostate
and if can't accept you for who you are F' em
John, WI Episode 21.26
JOHN: "I'm not going to lie, I'm probably not going to change my entire perspective, based on this one call in"
MATT: "I wouldn't have expected that. Actually I would be very skeptical if I had a phone call with somebody, and they dramatically changed their position in the course of a 5,10,15 minute phone call."
I'm more than convinced that the John in Sweden, on this show, has done exactly that in the course of two phone calls in two weeks. Listen to them both. It sounds very insincere and just doesn't add up. The first call was all over the place. I think he's a troll of some sort.
Always a good show, especially with Matt & Shannon, even with the clock you still get "time wasters" but well handled you two.
Religion: Ignorant men centuries ago with the total science knowledge of a preschooler “making shit up” failing to explain the natural world in order to control the masses w/o one shred of verifiable data or empirical, science-based evidence of any supernatural event or gods while ripping off billions of tax-free dollars from the gullible.
Religion is bullshit designed to market an immoral, delusion. You know it and I know it!
Xxx x cc cc cc y
My husband and I are gay, so we know exactly how subject the definition of what's a mental illness is. A generation or two earlier, we would have fit the definition, which has been changed in the DSM to now exclude us. Culture could easily change to re-classify us as mentally ill, and plenty of people think we are, but let's be clear that there is no objective definition of any term, and people can use any word to mean what they want. "Dumb" means both "unable to speak" and "stupid." "Gay" means both "happy" and "homosexual." "Christian" is a broad term that may include Mormons, JWs, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc., but if you ask a given Christian if all those are also "Christian," you are likely to be told that they are not. Regardless, it is demonstrably the case that "mentally ill" means, among other things, "significantly believing false or unfalsifiable claims" to some population. Semantics are always subjective, so it's pointless to insist on criteria, especially when the criteria for mental illness significantly included gay people in the not to distant past. The sources that claim the authority to dictate criteria, like the DSM, have a historically bigoted track record, so let's not try to argue from authority here. If authority decides semantics than the authorities who might declare homosexuality a mental illness would be correct.
I agree, it is a slippery slope to categorize people like that and I am glad we are slowly moving away from it. Were you and your husband persecuted that way?
I laughed so hard at some of those callers. I came for the philosophy but stayed for the comedy.
Let’s all be thankful that with God’s objective morality, slavery is moral and you can beat your male and female slaves - no minimum age requirement either - to death as long as they linger for a day. And the best part: you don’t even need a reason or a justification to beat them!
After all. They're your property so it's no different from choosing to throw money in the trash! Ahhh objective morals
The justification is employee disobedience, but of course that's not justified.
Moral objectivety precludes any use of morality in the mythological afterlife because the required scale to define morality no longer applicably exists. You can't have good morality without bad or evil morality.
No moral choice, so why have it now?
To suggest a God is morally omnibelevilent, is to suggest this God is not the complete author of all reality because It has an oppositional nature to Itself.
Religion completely misrepresents the use of morality and it's overall importance.
@@fredbmurphy Never heard of morality discussed re the christian afterlife. It's pretty much a blank slate as to how it's even supposed to work in the first place, beyond getting to kiss god's ass for all eternity. I suspect not having to die is all the motivation required to prefer the belief.
He’s also “pro abortion” as long as it’s the husbands choice. And his suspicion of his property cheating on him as more than enough for the court church place to decide. His property must then drink a “potion” or (poison). Then, if she miscarries she’s guilty. I think… can’t remember the whole verse but it starts out “the lord said to Moses” so I’m pretty sure it’s straight from his mouth.
Well we are made by god to “tend the garden” I don’t remember asking to be a gardener for his art… I guess we’re all technically gods slaves or property, and the flood would resemble beating us to a half inch of life, but we didn’t die so he’s innocent. 😂😂😂
Exactly Shannon, survival of the fittest is not about "might makes right", it's about the most adapted (fitting) to the environment
It's almost as if they don't even want to know what it means
I really don't get how people can still be confused about that. It's like they only understand one definition of "fit".
Here's an example, two people are floating in the pacific. One is a sumo wrester, the other is a body builder. One of them is more fit and the other is more fit for survival in that environment.
@@Triobian What a lousy metaphor. Who do you think is fit in either sense, because without being rescued in they are both dead in a few days.
More like "survival of the good enough" - just good enough to survive and pass on your genes.
Another great show by Shannon and Matt. Doing it weekly is remarkable.
Lost and confused
Congrats Isaiah, you get this week’s “Lame-brain, non-sequitur” award!
He gets the toilet seat award of the week!
I could use some of his... herbs :D
It sounded like he was advocating for being homeless.
After 40 seconds into Dominc's initial allotted time to build his case:
I don't like your chances here. At all.
He was totally in the dumpster after the lying to the Nazi's question. He was wrong and tried to wiggle out from having to admit he was wrong.
He deliberately made no effort to understand what was explained to him here.
Shannon's closing remarks on his call were excellent. And he STILL didn't want to admit he was wrong citing his "phone was cutting out"
Nice try, Dominic. You got crushed -and you know it.
It's still rather baffling how many people talk about THE meaning of life when life demonstrably has as many meanings as you can assign it in a lifetime. It's also bizarre that religious people in particular desire that their meaning is assigned by someone else, when the would normally reject even being told whom to marry by a third party. There isn't a meaning of life--there are countless, and you get to enjoy inventing them for yourself just like to get to choose what TV shows to watch or what music you listen to. If you would reject letting a third party choose just one song you listen to over and over for your entire life, you should also reject the concept of a single god-assigned purpose.
Here is one of my favourite meanings of life - "We are a way for the universe to know itself." - Carl Sagan
We are here and we get to decide what our purpose is. And we are a piece of the universe looking back at itself, wondering what it is. Some of us find that sooner, some later, but we decide why we are here.
I really can’t understand how a parent can kick their child out over their lack of belief. At the time my kids told me they didn’t believe in God, I was very much a theist. I remember being angry and sad at the news but it didn’t change my love for them. And being a Christian at the time, why would I choose to be unkind to my kids when the example I was supposed to be exemplifying is to treat others kindly?
That's obviously because there's so many tolerant religious people. 😉
I think it could be about obedience. To disobey is seen as alack of respect, and if they let one person get away with it, then others may try. Also it may start to cause them to question their own obedience.
Happens. I was living in my parents basement with my wife and 2 year old daughter, trying to get our feet under us financially. When my wife told my dad that Islam and Christianity have a shared history, we were out on our asses, 7 months pregnant.
"Whatever you do to the least of these" indeed...
They can kick their kids out because they’re i d I o t s
Here's a (rhetorical) question for Dominic: If morals don't apply to beings who can't understand them, how do you deal with humans of limited mental capacity, e.g., someone with Down Syndrome? If someone has an IQ of 60, they can understand many things and communicate, but they might not be able to discern a nuanced scenario where commiting a "wrong" serves the greater good.
The fact is that understanding, especially of morality, occurs on a continuum -- it's not binary. The human mind matures over time, and morality is something that takes time to be able to discern. A 3-year-old doesn't think anything is wrong with smacking their sibling when their sibling takes their toy.
This is to say nothing of the fact that there are countless examples of moral conundrums where ethics professors and students spend hours discussing the implications of ones choice. It isn't always cut and dried.
So, Shannon is right. Morality _is_ subjective and arrived at by deliberation. If it were _objectively_ true, people wouldn't philosophize about it, and the world would be a very different place.
Hahaha! Don running away at the end was hilarious. 😂
BYE!!!
Scaredy Don can't handle Matt and Shannon!
Is Don not aware of secular laws that have been written over the centuries? There was nothing biblical about the majority of them.
The ten commandments have been ignored for the most part for centuries as well. The laws from god have been dismissed for roughly about the same amount of time.
If you read biblical law, one would conclude it was clearly written by goat herders that had no idea how a properly functioning civilization works.
Can I just say that Shannon's hair color, skin tone, lipstick, eyes, and spectacles are so on point and exquisitely in sync. Mesmerizing, flawless complexion. That hair just glows.
I thought the same! She's so autumnal, really suits her.
Yes you can say that,.. because your not a man. We'd get yelled at today....
Simp if you must.
@@morbidmanmusic No you won’t, silly goose. It’s HOW you say it that will get ANYONE yelled at. Though, a lot of the time it’s not yelling…people correct you and you feel attacked.
Well you ain't seen her body Shape curvature. Stature,.... Before you make any flattery views...
Caller around 50 minutes. If your parents kicked you out and called you stupid for being a non-believer, consider that you may be better off without such mean people in your life.
@@angryatheist or both.
True, but it's easier said than done. These are his parents. It's normal to want to maintain the relationship.
Just saying, "You are better off without them" is not all that helpful, even if it is true. Cutting those ties takes a process and time. The key is to help him deal with that process and work things out.
He'll get there. Either they'll come around, or he'll move on. But in the meantime, the guy could use all the support we can give.
Good luck to you, John. I know this sucks.
@@flowingafterglow629 I agree it's easier said than done. "...the guy could use all the support we can give." I agree, which is part of why I suggested he deserves better than people who are mean to him and call him stupid.
Don: "Nope. Bye!"
Hilarious! There should be more like him :D
I'm sure it wasn't intentionally but the last caller was hilarious, backed into a corner so bad that they had to duck and run from the super-complex question of 'Is it possible to determine good and bad moves if you've set a goal?'
In his mind and many of the theist/troll commenters here he thinks he "dominated" and won that debate...
@@Fufiloofa Kinda hard to 'dominate' a debate that you had to run from but whatever he/they have to tell themselves to avoid having to face that his ego prevented him from admitting that he was wrong I guess.
@@philiplynx6991 you haven't seen the channels resident trolls who post and then delete their answers? One of them claims to "dominate".
@@Fufiloofa Ah, graduates from the 'knock over the chess pieces, crap on the board and declare yourself the winner' school of debate, how both sad and hilarious.
I've said it before and I've said it again. Matt and Shannon are the BEST team on atheist experience!
They're good, They work well together.
Don from Ohio is today’s winner of the Dishonest Caller of the Day Award. Congrats Don, you’ve earned it.
Hi Matt and Shanon. Just wanted to say I love your work very very much, both of you! You inspire me, and make me happy. :)
1:16:00 Anthony, brah, that sounds hella specific! The Troglodyte Council recommends balancing your state of proto-consciousness!
00:00 Intro
02:47 Dominic-CA | Karma In An Ordered Universe Proves God
26:30 Tim-CA | Is Religious Belief A Psychological Disorder?
36:51 John-(SE) | Meaning Of Life Without God: Why Care About The Future?
58:46 Isaiah-NV | Wooden Desks Give Off 10/10 Positive Vibrations
1:10:54 Anthony-VA | How Did You Determine That God Is The Best Explanation?
1:17:44 Patrick-FL | Pan-Proto-Psychism Offers Evidence For God
1:27:40 Don-OH | Secular Morality Makes Morality Personal
1:37:37 Outro
Proud of you John in Sweden. I'm sorry you're experiencing what you are. Stay strong brother! 🤟
That breathy “ooww” by Shannon at 1:15:54 was extremely clear and prominent in my AirPods…thank you God! 😉😂❤️❤️
Dominic, who in many other respects seems quite nice, is a great example of how difficult it can be to effectively communicate with people who are not trained to think...who appear to be incapable of following even the simplest chain of logic....and who are unschooled or unaccustomed to listening with the intent to understand as opposed to merely waiting for their turn to speak. Interacting with such people gives me the internal mental experience of a record needle scratching across the vinyl: Things are going along fine then......."ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiip"!!!
Dominic - Lying is ALWAYS wrong.
Matt - What about lying to the Nazis to conceal Anne Frank....would that be wrong?
Dominic - No
Matt - So lying in some situations is not wrong correct?
Dominic - Correct
Matt - So your list of things that are ALWAYS wrong is wrong correct?
Dominic - No
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiip!!!!!!
I agree in principle but I would say that some of the „logic gaps/indecisiveness“ some callers show is also due to the nature of a call-in show, e.g. needing to give quick answers, brake down complex „philosophical“ models in a few sentences and being (rightly) interrupted mid thought for clarification.
I believe that his „ALWAYS“ statement was a generalization and therefore impresice/the communication problem, as he stated during the call, that his list of rules was aiming to reduce harm and in consequence would allow breaking the rules for a the „greater good“.
If he had replaced the last No with a „Yes, but…“ (you misunderstood my position), Matt’s reaction wouldn’t have been great ether.
I don’t say that it was a good argument but that it was internally likely more consistent than you give credit for.
@@ChrischenL I think this is a fair defense of some callers. The format is challenging to say the least. But how it goes and what is likely to happen is readily discoverable by anyone who bothers to watch even a single clip....so it's a bit like saying well gosh, not everyone is prepared to discover there's water in the pool after they jumped in. I might add that Dominique seemed to be operating under the misapprehension that morality is a feature that distinguishes humans from the rest of the animal kingdom and therefore only applies to human beings. He seems to be unaware of the numerous studies that have identified what we would describe as moral inclinations in a variety of animal species. Or put another way, they can behave on the basis of morally laden emotions or what we would describe in ourselves as "moral motivations" e.g. generosity, reciprocity, empathy, fairness, compassion, toleration....along with their negative counterparts such as jealousy, envy, malice, etc. This in itself does not disprove god, but it's strong indicator that our moral senses are more likely a product of nature and the kind of animals we are.
I've been fortunate to hear some very intelligent people speak, and I think that Shannon might be the smartest person I've ever listened to.
She has the smarts, the knowledge and the style--and not to mention some pretty dang good looks too!
23:18 "I'm having a hard time understanding because my phone is starting to cut out." In other words, you're making excuses rather than just admitting that you lost the argument.
1:12:29 If you riffle shuffle cards perfectly, it will cause the cards to move through the deck in a pattern.
From a deck in "new deck" order:
- One "out" shuffle will sort cards into red cards and black cards.
- Two "out" shuffles will sort cards into suits.
- Eight "out" shuffles will return the deck to original order.
This type of shuffling could be done accidentally at a higher likelihood then pure chance, but maybe less likely than cheating.
Shannon was killing it in this episode
listening to Shannon is like listening to a good song
always nice to hear some sanity after a few of these callers
It’s scary that are so many people like Isaiah walking amongst us.
His thinking is so irrational he’s hard to take seriously.
@@dennisconstantine624
Agreed. XD
What infuriates me is that they have call-screeners, and lots (or at least several) people on hold, and they go to the complete waste of time and space that is Isaiah the bong-hitter, and actually give him more than 60 seconds. And if that doesn't make me loose faith in humanity enough, the thought that he isn't unique, and that all (or most) Isaiah's of the world are eligible to vote, does.
EDIT: And along comes Patrick - FL. Wth are these guys actually feeding themselves?
@@ArKritz84 I disagree, that guy was hilarious.
Ron Williamson: the sad part about it is, sometime I feel sorry for these people because, I used to be where they are until I started thinking for myself .they have been brainwashed into believing this religious nonsense to the point where they don't know how to function without it ,and their religion basically tells them not to think just obey 😡🙏the ideal of a God not existing or their religion being false scares the💩 out of them🥵 and I think for them ,it's a survival mechanism to lash out at people that don't believe in their nonsense. it's a sad existence😔
Religion may not be a psychological disorder, however I believe there are people whose obsession with religion becomes psychologically ‘unhealthy’. For example if you believe you can pray your way to prosperity, that is unhealthy and ludicrously misinformed.
I agree with that. Almost any belief can become unhealthy if it becomes extreme enough.
Anthony: I don’t want to back my beliefs, I want to know why you don’t believe my beliefs
Exactly! When someone is sheltered in authoritarian echo-chamber, where people are told they’re superior to everyone else as long as the obey, they can’t even fathom thinking someone might threaten that feeling of superiority.
Guys like Anthony know they don’t have any evidence, just entitlement, so they try desperately to find ways to just gaslight the whole of a field. That way their dogma will be true by default, because you can’t prove something someone says ISN’T true, and that ignorance is used instead of knowledge. Which is why Anthony was so desperate to not really talk about what he believed and why. Just the position he wanted the opposing view to follow to get to a place of “well you can’t prove that everything I say isn’t true!”
It’s a circular loop that relies on obedience to said loop on its own authority to the exclusion of anything/everything else. If an outside thought gets in the mix everything is comprised.
This is for John (the guy that got kicked out of the house for coming out as an atheist).
What you have to be awared of is that your parents are just tyring to understand you. They just don't get why is it that their son is doing "such a horrible thing." In their minds you are wrong, even though you're not.
Now, when it comes to you, you know your're not wrong, so you wish your family could understand that what you're doing has no ill intentions. It's just that they can't see life the way you do right now, and you yourself can no longer see life the way they do.
What this is is just a a huge, huge, huge, case of misunderstandings because of miscommunication.
And when miscommunication is the problem, communication is the solution. The thing is that your parents are not ready to have that honest conversation about God yet, even if you are. So, here is the best thing you can do right now. Somehow you need to communicate with them and let them know that your intentions are not bad, that you don't want to hurt anybody and that the only thing you want to do is to be honest. Tell them you don't want to lie to them anymore and that you're ready to have an honest conversation about it when they are ready to have that honest conversation too.
Now, that will absolutetly not fix things for you or for them right there and there, but what it will do is that every time they think about "how crazy you are" and how they are "obviously right" they will remember that you are being honest about it and that they are avoiding that honest conversation.
Every time they think about it, they will know it's now on them to have that honest conversation and not on you, which in turn makes them be a bit more open about it.
Now, when you do have that conversation with either one of your partents, BE RESPECFUL, BE LOVING.
The trick is in making them understand that they are not stupid or crazy to believe in what they believe in, but that they may be wrong even though you understand they have good intentions. Make them understand that other people with good intentions also believe in other gods they themselves don't believe in and that people with good intentions can be wrong about what god is real or what god is fake.
Be honest during that conversation, be kind, and when you feel like they are under too much pressure, give them a break. Tell them they should think about it since it's a complex topic and then move to a different topic.
If you do that, over time they will know for certain that you are the most honest person they know when it comes to that topic. They may even reach out to you to ask you what you're take is on things they've always wondered about.
All the athiests I know of, including myself, have had a very, very tough time right after we came out to our families, but in pretty much every case things get much and much better over time regardless of the initial reactions. So, I know it's tough right now, John, but don't you give up on it, your parents need your help even though they don't even know that right now.
One last thing, thank you! Thank you for being part of a change that little by little will allow future generations be more honest about this topic without having to split from the people they love. Thanks, John!
I didn't read your whole post, just making comment that kicking your kids out because they don't believe in the same things is NO excusethere is NO excuse. It actually demonstrates the immorality of the belief system they have instilled into their children. And they are too blinded by the bullshit to see it.
Patrick sounds like the people who teach no-contact martial arts. Or my favourite word for it, bullshido...😂😂😂
I’d love to live in Dominic’s world where everything is perfect and nothing bad happens.
He thought about Ethics for like 67 seconds and assumed he had an entire branch of philosophy that's been debated for thousands of years all figured out.
ignorance is bliss
I genuinely struggle to imagine reaching adulthood without realising there are situations where lying is by far the more moral choice than telling the truth, how dangerous would such a person be?
Of course Dominic isn’t actually one of them because he conceded that it’s situational, just showed up to the show never having given it enough thought to realise his own views negated the claims he was about to make.
@@gavsmith1980 Unfortunately most people are so unaware of other ways of thinking they feel personally attacked when it’s mentioned.
If you say “in some circumstances it may be better to lie, to save a life” most people will say “so you’re saying it’s okay to lie for a convicted serial rapist so he’s not incarcerated/executed?”. It’s always extremes anymore. If one person does something, then everyone else gets to do it, otherwise it’s biased against them. There’s no context.
In fact we’ve got many people who are already cool with lying. If a politician, actor, or other elite someone likes is caught lying, even if it’s to them, they’ll just ignore it because “you don’t think everyone else lies?!”
Yep, I walk through jungles ignoring the millions of insects and animals violently killing each other like all life forms have to do in nature, in order to continue to be life forms, as well as ignoring the violent tsunami ripping the trees apart and heading towards me. It’s just so peaceful for me.
Yet another magnificent show!
If only a show like this had been around when I got “saved”. Talk about time that you can’t get back that was just wasted.
If Isaiah thinks that nature gives us everything we need, he's never done survival training!
Shannon just keeps getting better
Anthony falls flat on his face with his opening question - "If it could be demonstrated that it is extremely unlikely that the unaided forces of nature could have produced life and its diversification..."
That is something that creationists cannot demonstrate and have never demonstrated. Game over.
Also "extremely unlikely" does not mean impossible. Also, those odds grow in relation to the size of the pool.
If I ask you once to guess what card I'm holding up, your odds at getting it right are low, however, if I ask you 52 times your chances are 100%
So, in a universe with trillions of stars and many times that planets orbiting those stars, the odds of the elements necessary for the evolution of life increases.
And yes, you are correct, 1) even if evolution was wrong, it doesn't resolve into an automatic "therefore god". The god preposition would have to be proven first. 2) All evidence does point to evolution, and there isn't any that points to a god.
@@xelasomar4614 The possibility that you worked yourself into a pretzel constructing to save stupid evolution’s worthless hide ... is the same kind of possibility that you resolutely, if stupidly, fight tooth and nail to deny theists and deists ... especially the luckiest of those, Christians.
There .... now work yourself into another pretzel trying to decouple yourself from the idea that you often fight. 🙂
And now, as Oscar would say to those he likes most ... have a rotten day !
✨Jesus is Lord.🌟
@@gherieg.1091 The fact that what is plain and easy logic seems so convoluted to you as to be "pretzel" like, speaks volumes about how religious belief has impaired yours.
There is nothing to deny theist as there is nothing that they have offered as evidence for their beliefs. Now if you want to put up your evidence, I'll be happy to discuss it.
Cheers.
@@gherieg.1091 ohhhhh your funny! Just to be clear, your ignorance doesn't conclude that your god exists. But if it makes you happy to believe in her without any tangible evidence, then so be it. But maybe you should refrain from arrogantly displaying your ignorance to the world until you can cough up the proof.
@@gherieg.1091 Hey GG! misterdeity has a new video out today titled "WOTMQ: He Is Risen! So what?" I think he must have made it just for you!
My favorite combo right here!
Mine too 🙋🏼♀️
Patrick, I believe that there's a proto consciousness in that bong bowl you hit from before calling this show. It's like, totally real dude, wow, how do those colors taste? Can hear the light too?
Don was one of the most dishonest callers ever.
Agreed. A Disengenious Jackass, no two ways about it. XD
He is a perfect specimen for religion. They deserve each other.
what karma? murderers and thieves get off all the time so where is their karma?
Isaiah sounded so high, it's hilarious. 😅
While not all religious belief is connected to mental illness, some is. One can, because of mental illness, behave religiously. Mental illness and religiosity are not co-equal, but neither are they mutually exclusive.
23:10- "Ok...., I'm starting to have a hard time to understand you, my phone's starting to cut out."
Translation: "I have no idea what I'm talking about and you two made me look like a fool."
Great show overall, one of the best in a while. The combination of Matt and Shannon is fan-freaking-tastic.
But still wrong ... and dangerous. Denying God is dangerous ! The MOST Dangerous thing anyone can do.
@@gherieg.1091
Let's see your evidence. Post a source.
Nothing? Yeah i thought so. Theists can only lie.
I kept waiting for them to ask Isaiah "How high are you right now?"
Matt likes to say that he didn't get any smarter when he stopped believing in gods, which is sad, because I got much smarter and kept getting smarter. The number of thoughts I was able to think used to be so small, and I had no idea how to think logically or even question authority, which was taboo. When I ceased to believe there was a man who could read my mind and would someday punish me for how my brain worked, I found myself able to think critically and reason in ways that were never possible before. I was learning like I'd never learned and making decisions more productive than any I'd previously made in my entire life. I'm not remotely embarrassed to admit how stupid religion and belief in a god made me. I could not be proud of my growth if I couldn't admit that I was demonstrably less intelligent in the past.
In my understanding of intelligence, you didn't get smarter. That does not preclude intellectual growth or development. I view intelligence as the "upper bound" of what my brain is capable of. Not enough sleep can lead to meeting that. Incorrect beliefs can as well. If I learn something new, the incorrect belief no longer gets in my way. Same with a good night's sleep. So I can learn something new, and move forward.
My point is, I think Matt may simply be defining "smarter" differently than you. Because even when I don't think I have gotten any smarter, I can identify ways that my knowledge, depth, and nuance have grown.
Shannon has the gift of discernment
Theists should really give up the "Absolute Morality" schtick. It is just ridiculous these days.....
Agreed. A total waste of time and braincells.)
As was shown in this spisode, it's not even a meaningful concept. Absolute morality? Matt's example of acceptable lying means you have a hard time finding absolutes. Unless, of course, your absolutes are so specific to each situation that they have no guidance at all.
We have absolute morality, but the morality of each action has to be evaluated individually based on the situation? If that is absolute morality, the concept is meaningless.
I want to ask Matt a question. "Says stuff Shannon is best equipped to answer"... Thank you Matt and your crew.. I'm so sorry that you're not getting the attention you deserve Shannon
I love it when Shannon uses her "mom voice" with a caller! It makes my day every time 😁
Anthony-VA ID/ creationism is simple special pleading: i.e. A simple mechanism that can produce complexity cannot possibly exist without something to plan it, but an extremely complex mechanism can just exist without something to plan it. Creationism/ ID is just kicking the improbability can down the road to an exponentially greater improbability.
The last caller was actually my fav one. I
Don, you made my belief stronger that there is no god thank you
The thing about the coordinates of the Great Pyramids aligning with the speed of light was adressed in one of Vsauce's old videos ("Spooky Coincidences?", i think). It boils down to you getting to pick where the decimal point of the coordinates are and also that if you want to make them align you get to a level of precision that's basically meaningless (on the order of inches, if I remember correctly). Also, keep in mind that the way we defined latitude and longitude was arbitrary as we set a full turn as 360°. So if you start from the Equator, the North Pole is at 90°. We could've picked any number other than 360, and the "amazing coincidence" would not work. Also also remember that the reference to longitude (Greenwich) is very very arbitrary and not especial at all!
Sorry for the long comment xb
Edit - the thing about Greenwich isn't relevant because latitude is where the coincidence is, but I'll leave it anyway
And also the meter and second don't mean anything in particular
Yes, “What do you believe in and why?” Make an argument and present evidence. Thank you.
i believe in nother,here it is...
Did Patrick really say that “they” just discovered something that demonstrates consciousness exists after death? Does he think he could’ve possibly been the first one to tell them about that, even though it’s “cutting-edge science that’s hard to keep up with”?
Why didn’t he start with that?! What was all that preamble nonsense, trying to throw every pseudo-philosophical/scientific thing together to obfuscate?
It was funny though when they asked what it was that demonstrated consciousness after death, and he said “cutting edge science that I can’t understand” even though he claimed definitively that “they found out that consciousness exists after death”. Meaning of course that he can’t understand what he’s saying, but it is a fact that he makes his whole foundation with.
Shannon's opinion about religious beliefs not rising to the level of a mental illness is not supported by fact. The symptoms match a delusional disorder to a T. It's simply that it's an accepted condition in most cultures, being the norm. And as always, the distinction between an annoyance and an illness is a matter of degree. Once delusional religious beliefs start influencing every aspect of life, it's safe to conclude there's a disorder affecting the individual.
Don gets steered into corner after corner, First by Matt, then by Shannon. Will do everything he can to not let on what the hosts are saying is right.
Don's credo " I Shall Not Be Corrected!
@Rev. Fester's Fly Swatter You already trapped yourself in the corner, Lying Troll.
@Rev. Fester's Fly Swatter if that was you calling you sounded just as I imagined
@Rev. Fester's Fly Swatter I bet you are Billy from Texas
@Rev. Fester's Fly Swatter Corner you? I don't have to. You're already there.
@Rev. Fester's Fly Swatter you are so easy to Corner that it's not even a challenge🤣
I got here from miss Parker and I just absolutely love
Miss q, miss q, miss q.
If john cares about what happens to his son while John is alive, why would John need a god or an after life to, right now, care about what happens to his son when John is no longer around?
"I can be friendly, and I can be a prick" coming on a t shirt soon 🤣
Shanon this is the DSM V definition of a delusion: “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence”.
How is religion not a delusion?
Yeah, I was really surprised by how passionate she got about this. I mean, Richard Dawkins's book is named The God Delusion. It helped an awful lot of people see their way out, through the paradigm of delusion, and continues to do so many
Elroy Foster I'm trying to decide whether to message them or not. As a Disability Advocate as a part of my job for years I feel I have to say something, but don't want to get banned. The fact that they said you can't call a religious person mentally ill because having a belief doesn't mean they are "defective" is beyond horrifying for the Mental Health Community. These people claim great knowledge, and then they say something like that. I really don't know what to do, but they should be called out. People with mental illness are NOT "defective" and to ever use that word is unforgivable. You are also correct. Matt made the comment that he "was not mentally ill when he believed and then suddenly was cured" is also hugely problematic. If he had a delusion, and then did not, he is in actuality "cured" of that delusion. The fact that religious people get a pass due to numbers is also inexcusable. And Shannon's comment that it was "human and natural" is beyond belief. YOU are correct. Their stance is entirely hypocritical.
@@littlebitofhope1489 I hope you do message them. I hope a good faith message from a professional wouldn't lead to getting banned. If it did, that would be a sad thing.
@@VesnaVK I'm having a hard time understand this. They are using the same type of argument theists use, and they are so passionate about it. That makes it so much worse. This kind of language does so much damage, and they owe that community a public apology, and they should recognize their error themselves. If they don't, then it really wasn't just a single episode of bad judgement.
@@littlebitofhope1489 agreed. I've seen them go off like this on other topics, as well. But this is really the signature, foundational issue of the movement, arguably.
I love how trespass is wrong but blackmail is ok lmao. 🤣🤣🤣
I was wondering if something like emotional abuse was a part of assault. It's not legally... and if it's not in his mind, I'd say that's missing from the list.
I love how someone called in to Talk Heathen to scream about how “the world is perfect for us, therefor god is a terrible straw man argument that no theist has ever made! That’s bullshit!”
And then the first caller literally made that argument. 😂
That was Subjectively Dan using a fake voice.
Sounds like they didn’t read the thou shalt not lie part.
"Matt Dilahunty , what is your legacy? What have you left to the world?"
"I have a t- shirt saying YOU'RE DONE!..... Oh and I also helped lots of people leave toxic ideas and taught logic and reason to the masses.... but man, that t shirt!"
At least that's how I imagine the conversation would go😁
Some of these calls remind me of talking to npcs in video games. They can only respond with the same scripted dialogue.
All I have to say is that there better be a new band forming with the name "Troglodyte Council". lol
Poor Patrick was obviously reading a written text containing to him new and strange intricate words, thus the stumbling whilst he was talking.
I would have told Patrick to call in after he was dead to prove his claims.
Believing in a God is not “ human nature” it’s taught behavior.
I believe there is more than enough evidence that "human nature" includes the very strong desire to seek out and trust a "higher authority", at least until maturity. It's part of parent bonding.
It’s a shame that Matt misheard Dominic, because he basically argued that it’s immoral to save someone’s life if it involves stealing something.
I noticed that too.
As if it weren’t frustrating enough to have people like that and what they say, we’ve also got a host who occasionally responds to what they didn’t say anyway.
I'd really like Matt to request examples and details from the people who disagree with him so that it can be clearly explored and shown where the differences lie rather than hanging up or otherwise shutting the person down. For instance on the final call the Matt could have asked the caller to give him an example of where you cannot identify if an action is helpful or not in respect to a goal for morality. Then they could have discussed it and highlighted where the guy was going wrong or where they were talking past each other.
Matt and Shannon - it just doesn't get any better.
And I say they are both at their best when they are together.
Hug to John.. your brave i hope your parents will see their folly.
We as a species are cable of so much compassion for the ones we have relationships with.
I don't think religious beliefs are a mental disorder in itself. But, I have found in my first hand experience over 40 years is every person I have met with religious beliefs also have psychological or mental disorders.
I have found a lot of "off" people have strong beliefs in a lot of things, conspiracy theories, religion, etc. I do think that less intelligent people tend to be more religious as they lack good critical thinking skills. Doesn't mean smart people can't be religious, just less of them are.
@@joecoolioness6399
Agreed.
“The most productive and agreeable sooociieeettiiiehhh” I lost it
1:33:35
Highly improbable does not mean impossible. It is highly improbable that if I pick up a phones receiver (an antiquated piece of equipment) to call someone, that person is already on the line calling me. It is improbable, but it is not impossible, and it has happened. It is highly improbable that as I open the door to exit a building, someone else is on the other side, opening the door to enter the building. It has and does happen. However improbable something may be, that does not make it impossible.
I once saw a poker hand where someone had quad A's (very rare) and another player had a Royal Flush (even more rare). The chances of each hand showing up at a table with 8 players is very improbable but to get both of them in the same hand is very very very improbable. But it happened. The problem with these people is that you can never know if they have gone far enough to try and find the thing you are looking for, in order to conclude that it could not have happened any other way. They have no base to judge probability.
Half the callers were as high as a kite in full flight today!
wait...wait...wait...what are you talking about at 1:28:00? I thought that the Earth was flat and the sun (and the moon) swung around the Earth on a pendulum??
John said he knows what survival of the fittest means, then turned right around and proved he didn't have any idea what it means. He seems to think it means the strongest or something.
Ahhh yes. Another hour and 40 mins of ignorant, dishonest, incredulous, patronising, deluded theists and Matt and Shannon making sound logical arguments.
It’s like Christmas to my ears lol
Dishonest?
I call it The Low Hanging Fruit Show
Belief in God is similar to belief in other basic truths, such as belief in other minds or perception,seeing a tree, or memory, belief in the past, In all these instances, you trust your cognitive faculties, although you cannot prove the truth of the belief in question. Similarly, people take certain propositions,e.g., the existence of the world, as a basic and others as derivative from these basic propositions. Believers, it is argued, take the existence of God as a basic proposition.
God is not like a tree... that is problem no 1
Wonderful show!
Regarding John, the second caller.... I keep on getting revolted over and over again by parents, who kick out their children, who just became atheists.... Such control, disrespect and cruelty from SO CALLED loving parents!!!!! Well... good luck John, in your new life of reason and decency... the freedom you just acquired is invaluable..... try to remember that.....
There is no hate like Christian love.
If I had children that became religious I could not abandon them or disown them. Christopher Hitchens was right when he says religion makes good people do monstrously evil things.
@@jacketrussell
You're right.... Sorry for the mistake.....
@@fishjj76 Or Muslim love (John's family is Muslim, IIRC).
@@fishjj76 I can't really think of anything that my kids could do that would make me kick them out. Even if they stole from me to feed a drug habit I'd still love and take care of them.
@@fishjj76 I hate to say this but as bad as Christianity is, Islam faith is way worse. that's why we need to get rid of all religion.
That lead-in into the 'recently on the shows' clip was brilliant. 😆
It sounds like Dominic made up his entire "moral system" on the spot during this call.
1:08:40. Wading, eye hole deep, through the bong water.
Congrats, Don! You are the proud recipient of the “Obstinate douchebag” award.
🥳
I still fail to understand Matt's argument about chess. I mean, yes, if we arbitrarily determine the rules of chess, then we can objectively determine what are good or bad moves. That doesn't explain why should we agree on chess rules in the first place. They are arbitrary. Similarly, if we agree on goal of well-being, then we can objectively determine what is good and bad, regarding that goal. Sure. That doesn't explain why we should agree on goal of well-being. I agree everyone cares for his own well-being, but Matt is arguing that we should agree on goal of well-being for all, without explaining why we should care for others. Specifically, why should we agree to make the world a better place for everyone, if the situation is such that we have opportunity to increase our well-being at the expense of others? For example, slave owner makes the world worse for slaves, but his well-being is increased by slavery, so why should he agree on arbitrary goal of well-being for everyone?
@@goranmilic442
If the goal is to make world better place to everyone, not just some people, then we should care wellbeing of everyone.
And ain't wellbeing of everyone then be better goal than make just slave owners wellbeing priority because then we don't even need slave owners and that individual can achieve wellbeing without being slave owner in this model also!
@@almightybunny3320 Your first sentence is just a tautology. If we wish to make a world better place for everyone, then we should care for everyone's well-being. You completely avoided to answer my question - why should we want to make the world better place for everyone, not just for ourself? If slave owner has huge wealth because of the slaves he owns, why should he stop being slave owner? (Please, don't get me wrong, I think slavery is wrong, I just fear Matt is not explaining it well with chess analogy.)
@@goranmilic442
My point was that making world better place to everyone we make it better ourselfs also and we all benefit that! Making it better just one group doesn't make it better nor necessary more beneficial to anyone because what if slave owner become slave or you don't belong that "better group" anymore?
Risks are more bigger that kind of world than world which we try to make things better to us all!
Let's consider clinging to a belief in the presence of clear evidence to the contrary. Can this be consistent with a healthy thinking process?