Remember to put in the link for Adams one day build using these visors. :) th-cam.com/video/8Td-YSEEKEM/w-d-xo.html&t also you mention that video at 22:03 in this video. you could add popup link there.
Happy new year Bill and Britt, and thanks for sharing all that you do! I think I might know why vacuum-forming the acrylic didn't exactly go according to plan. It's possible you looked up TAP Plastic's datasheet for Acrylite FF extruded acrylic (which does say 290° to 320°F) but ended up using the Acrylite GP cell-cast acrylic (requiring 340° to 380°F) instead. Extruded and cast acrylic are the first two categories listed on TAP's website under "Plastic Sheets" and even use identical images in their links: www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/plastic_sheets_rolls The temperature ranges for both can be found under Thermoforming Conditions on Page 4 of this PDF: www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Tech%20Data-Thermo.pdf Such a mixup could also explain other problems you faced, as cast acrylic suffers shrinkage to a greater degree and absorbs moisture more readily than does extruded acrylic. Hope that helps!
Man, what an adventure!! So awesome to see how many different types of making goes into this one project. 3D printing, woodworking, metal working, power tools, hand tools, tinting, etc. They turned out great!
Every guy I know that has a joint account with their significant other was caught sending inappropriate messages to other ladies. You must have really messed up for her to want to make TH-cam videos together.
I’ve been working in a plastic shop for a few years now. I’ve been the main vacuum former for all of our products. A few things I’d do for single parts like this to make it a bit easier. While the baby powder seemed to work pretty well, another longer term solution is to put a compressed air system inline with your vacuum channels, when you switch your vac off, let the plastic harden (not too much depending on the plastic you are working with to prevent cracking, ex. Polystyrene) then engage the air system which works to release the plastic from the mould using the same channels the vacuum uses. Obviously just don’t use them both at the same time. Also, a big component of vacuum forming is managing the heat distribution across the surface of the plastic. So for such a deep negative ideally you would want different parts of the plastic sheet to be heated at different temperatures. (Usually far less in the middle to prevent thinning of the final product). It’s a little tricky because you have such a relatively small heating solution, but a common solution is to have the different elements on their own thermostat and control system, so you can set each element to its own temp. Heating the plastic sheet proportionately to keep the best result as far as thickness. But the main thing is thermoforming isn’t an exact science by any means. It’s all about dialing it in through practice.
You know you've become a master of your craft when you take on a challenging project with very little specific experience, and it turns out beautifully. Well done.
I swear listening to you building props is just like listening to Mr. Rogers. I don't know if it's the voice or your cadence, but it's just so soothing
Great job guys. Fascinating video as usual. Remember, “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.” - Thomas A. Edison. Or as Adam, himself, likes to say; "Failure is always an option!" Oh, obviously you're joking about the "slave driver" bit with your colleagues/staff; but I've worked for people who wouldn't think twice about treating employees like that. Not every employer is a decent human like you.
I really enjoy vids like this when you show failures and explain why they fail! It helps others from making the same mistakes. I do have a suggestion that might save some time. Instead of using a hot plate on the galvanized basin, use a Sous Vide immersion cooker! You could set the temperature and walk away and when it gets to temp it will alarm and it will maintain the exact temperature you need indefinitely AND it will be circulating the water/dye mix which may help with the coating process.
I really do love your style bill you can tell a true maker by the fact that if you don’t have something you make it or find away around it also never lose you wit and humour
The videos are awesome. So, not that it's a bad thing, but with the music, the tone of voice, and yes the beard I definitely got a "This Old House" vibe at the end of the video! Took me back aways.
This is just what I needed. To find out how to make a screen. PETG whatever it is worked well. Watch that water on camera so close to the electrics. We saw that. I wonder too if you could have the holes in the vacuum opening sides first and then bottom using a solenoid valve so the sides get pulled first then the bottom to be sure of equal thickness.
@@punishedprops Any chance of asking something else though. I really really want to know how to make hard plastic which is harder than nylon even but flexible and heat resistant. Can resin do this or is it injection moulding only to achieve this?
I ran a plastic forming company in the 80's. Used to use impact modified acrylics and polycarbonates. The poly was real bad with mosture, had to dry them overnite in ovens. When you go to demold put just a bit of air pressure to it and it helps it pop out of a stubborn to release from mold. Nice job.
When fighting with moisture in pmma/acrylics at what temperature should bake it? If matters I would like to bake a 2.5mm acrylic sheet and vac-u-form it. Thank you in advance.
@@icebmwpower It varies with thickness and chemical makeup of the plastics best to ask the manufacturer for actual info but keep it under the temp the plastic becomes flexible at and my guess would be under 130deg F. for standard plastics. Most acrylics are not overly hygroscopic and do not need drying where as polycarbonates do
@@TheGreatBizarro Thank you for your input. I’ve found in the info I was looking for. Now I would like to share it here in case someone will need it... *1) Drying the pmma/acrylics to avoid bibles is 80’C for 24 hours.* *2) The forming range for acrylic sheet is 290-320’F (142-160’C).* edit: Usually I have success on 120’C.
Whoah! Attempting an inverted form and acrylic - you are braver than I am, Bill & Brit Doran! I love the way you built the inverted form - I have always wound up with something much heavier and with poor vacuum. I love watching you guys and learning new stuff!
i used to work with acrylic plastic for security mirrors. If you need a half sphere or dome try blowing air from underneath like blowing soap bubbles. You can use a thicker plastic and won't get tiny bubbles in it.
I didn't even know what PETG was before this video. Sounds like a very useful material! Not only is it easier to work with than PMMA, but from browsing some online stores it appears to be cheaper, too (at least, where I live). I think I'm going to start using PETG for projects now instead of PMMA. Thanks for the tip :)
Great build on the visors guys - learned significantly more about vacuum forming than I did before[#which was nothing at all]. Think Adam will enjoy and like them visors for his suit. That tinting job - three thumbs up!
Hmmm. A few questions come up: like If you wanted the clear visor more rigid, could you have piled two sheets into the frame, so they melt together as well as vacuform down? Did you use the refuse petg to test out your tint before dunking your first piece? And could you have let that sheet of petg sag much lower or is there a limit to the sagging?
From my experience the two sheet method unfortunately doesn’t join like you mentioned you’d just end up with two layers that wouldn’t hold together. And there is a limit to the sag! Get it too hot and your PETG will actually burn causing it to blister and change colour and risk getting too thin and tearing before even vac forming! :) Hope this helped!
I don't think the plastic gets hot enough to laminate together, but I've never tried it. We've done lots of PETG tinting, so we didn't need to test for this one. We could have probably let it sag lower. There is probably a point of diminishing returns though. There's a real knack to vacuum forming and I don't quite have it yet.
Thicker pet g may be a better solution. Even if two sheets would laminate together my guess is you’d end up with a lot of air-pockets between the two sheets.
Using a vacuform to laminate doesn't get enough pull to accurately mould the second layer to the first. Better just using thicker material. But could be a very cool experiment none the less!
im done.. you got me.. it was.. the last time ive watch a cosplay tutorial.. from now, ill make them and not only watch your video !! you got me XD im sold.. you made +1 cosplayer !!step 1 : tools !! btw your technique are insane ! what a genious,basicly an engeneer!!
I had a thought while watching the video regarding the tinting bath. Have you checked into a sous vide immersion circulator used in cooking? You can dial in the exact temperature you were looking for and maintain that temperature as long as needed. For less than 100.00 US, it might be worth giving a try.
@IQzminus A way around any issues with high/low PH would be to have a secondarey container inside the main container. Outer container would house the heater and the inner would house the die bath. This would keep the heater coil from contacting the die yet allow heat through to the inner container. If needed, both containers can be plastic with the temp only needing to be at 140° or so for the die bath.
We actually had considered it, but we already had our $10 electric burner and it works great, so we ran with that. I would be interested to see someone try an immersion circulator, but I don't think we're gonna try it.
@IQzminus most likely the pH will not have an effect the device. I would be more concerned with dye pigments collecting on the heating element, although that may not be an issue either if properly cared for. Remember, a lot of high/low pH products are stored in plastic. It's the concentrations that you need to worry about, not the actually pH... think Coca-Cola, it has pH of 3.They also make stainless versions, but still the heating element is where the issues would lie.
Working in a plastic packaging manufacturing factory, this was both fun and a bit painful. Temperature are tricky because they are dependent on the width of your plastic. The temperature of the core is more critical than the surface temperature,that's why even though the surface temperature is correct, you have problems forming. PET is the easiest to form and is mostly at least partly recycled plastic. If it becomes opaque and brittle, it's because it's too hot so lower the temperature or heat for a shorter time and you'll be golden. Some variations of temperature can be because of different additives in the plastic so some leeway is best PVC is a pain to form, Polystyrene and acrylic are finnicky as well. Smooth moulds will generally be harder to take the formed piece out of because the two surfaces will stick together, so try blowing air through the same hole where the vacuum is. hollow moulds are easier to form because when the plastic cools it detaches itself off of the mould so if possible keep to hollow moulds. Consider turning on the vacuum before or at the same time that you put the sheet of heated plastic, depending on the mould it could help with forming and decrease the likelihood of wrinkles. The science behind heat forming plastic, and how it behaves can seem simple but can get really complex depending on what you want out of your final product. Any way good job with the semi-improvised setup and if any want to try please take the proper precautions because it can be very dangerous and hazardous ( gases emitted, burns, etc)
Good ol’ petg! Fascinating process here. Thanks as always for showing what didn’t go right as well as the good stuff! So rad you were a part of this project the suit looks amazing!
Hi, great work, from the little experiance i've had with vacuforming - If you had a big radius around the edge of the form the material would flow better into it and reduce the thinning. Making the unwanted areas of the form smooth would help to as the material will get 'hung-up' on the rough sections. Another option is to add a bit of vacuum to the heater box to help pre-stretch before the move to the form.
That's an interesting proposition. I think that could have helped a little bit, but in my experience the plastic doesn't "flow" as well as one might assume it would. I think some kind of form that helps push the excess material into the mold would have had a more pronounced impact. Unfortunately we didn't have much wiggle room in the schedule to experiment.
Very nice, I did some visors for xwing helmets a few years ago that were somewhat similar. It was one of those items that the results turned out better than expected. Always a bonus.
Check out "plug assist thermoforming" if you have to do something like this again. Common technique in commercial systems and could allow you to tune the thicknesses - making the plug wouldn't take very long.
Thanks for sharing this build. It raises a lot of "but? what if " questions as in "what if they did C instead of B". But that is how my mind works. Nice job.
Hey Bill - crazy to see you got a big shop and 4 people in it.. i remember when i heard you on the morning stream alot of years ago and you had a little basement shop.. gj and cool to see this channel and the great craftmenship on it...
Awesome job guys! Was watching Adam's video, and was wondering how the visors were made, then he said you guys made them, and Boom, this video shows up! Glad you were a big part of this collaboration!
PET-G is an amazing plastic, never did manage to get the tint working though. Always got little spots or marks on it! Great video though! Very informative! Looking forward to building my own vacuum former now!
I found it interesting how the final prep utilized a glass polish typically used to restore old "fogged" vehicle headlights. A process used in scale models involves using Future Floor polish. This is an acrylic that can easily be stayed on with an airbrush or even dipped. The floor polish maintains a great surface tension that results in an even layer of coating. The outcome makes the covered material look almost identical to actual glass. I would the acrylic coating would not only protect the surface but provide a higher luster.
Hello maker! I like to do some making myself too, many times using materials that are new to me, and the one thing that I find important is how to handle all the waste that is created in the process of making. I would love to see in the end or during these videos how you separate the different waste materials for recycling or to the right kind of waste processing. A little introduction of the materials, like if they are toxic or not and what can be thrown in a sewer or garbage bin or recycling of metals and so on. This could promote more responsible use of materials and hopefully keep the environment more healthy.
An idea about the center getting thin: As the material sags the lowest area is closest to the heating element. Thus it should be hotter than the edges and will always deform faster in the vacuum form than the rest. Try using some angle aluminium to create a diffuser across the heating elements to evenly disperse the heat while protecting the piece from direct radiation. Ideally, some airflow would help distribute heat via convection. You can see this evidenced in high end electric grills.
Really enjoyed this - I arrived via Adam, having watched his video using the visors. I knew the outcome in advance, so when I got here there was no jeopardy!! Still thoroughly enjoyed it though and have subbed! Looking forward to watching your back catalogue!! Cheers!
Great video. Mixing the smooth dye (forgot what it's called) with a 2k clear and spraying it through an HVLP it gets the same effect of tinting without having to go through the heating water process. took it out of Volpin Props playbook.
Great job guys! Looks fantastic! I've got a Halo EVA Helmet visor on the printer and this will be a Goldmine for the final version!!! Great work as always!
This is great, you guys remind me so much of my shop and my team of goofball makers. I'm 3D printing some helmets to vacuform and was debating on a negative pull and after your video I'm convinced. I've done blow molds to keep my plastic optical clear but its always a challenge to keep your bucks smooth and clean when running Plex, I'm going to try PETG.
hi bill! great work! next time however, try using water clay instead of foam to splay the part out, it'll make demold so much easier, also, that is fibreglass tissue that you're using, that is mainly used to finish off as a final layer to make it nice and smooth. next time, try using some glass matting, 3 layers then that tissue to finish it off, will make your moulds so much stronger! :D
Just a thought, could you do the forming in multiple steps using progressive molds to eliminate the thinning of the plastic? Or make a preform to push down instead of fingers. Nice job on the visors and the video
Add emery cloth to your frame & it should grip the plastic sheet better when you clamp it. If you use a shaped heat shield suspended inside your heater, you'll be able to control the melt of your plastic sheet & prevent thinning of the material during the vac mold.
I wonder if you put a rounded rectangle metal reflector in the middle of the box, would it heat the edges at a closer rate to the middle? That might help with the thinning in the middle, no?
The problem with your heater box is that the top of the plastic is cold, needs heating from both sides for 1/8 3mm acrylic. Also positive buck moulds work better for deep items as you stretch the plastic over them and they come out a more even thickness.
same. All the HALO visors I do are pos bucks . I print the buck . then glass the inside to reenforce it . then Exp foam and dunnage. . On the print I use ABS and acetone smooth . Pull PETG and its not too bad! .
Hi mate, just watched this, if you used a thicker sheet of PETG, the vacuum needs to be stronger, have you ever thought of putting a high pressure box on top, sealed only has to be shallow, as you vacuum pump in high pressure air in the top one. Might help with not having to use your hands. You could use a balloon type bladder to form a buck inside.
I used to run a huge vac forming machine putting vinyl on plastic seat backs. It was cool for the first few hours than 6 years went by and now anything vacuum form related I want to go crawl into my dark hole, six feet below the ground. Good video though. Lol
Hmmm.... Well, first of all, thank you so much for showing us the whole process, that was great! I was a bit concerned with the middle part of each visor getting so thin... Would removing the frame while the vaccuum is pulling the plastic down make any (positive) difference?
From my experience+research trying to make a custom running lamp/marker light for a chopper using glass, it is -possible-. BUT! it is rediculously hard to pull off & requires building some serious equpment setup & luck (I was not lucky). Glass is as forgiving as an irrate honey badger. It ended up being much easier (and would have saved me a @#$& ton of $$ + time) to just commision a glass blower/sculptor.
so ive never done anything like this so of course i have some suggestions.. // the hot plastic was already sagging when you put it over the mold but then it got hung up on the sides so you pushed it into the mold.. could you not have the vacuum suction on already even if it were turned down a bit to aid its loading into the mold.. that would suck more of the plastic into the mold and when the frame was put down into place you could have amped up the vacuum suction.. also could you not put a board or lid over the plastic in your heater to keep the heat around the plastic when you're softening it ps love watching this kind of video.. i watched the vacuum box build and the heater box build good vids
Damn, I wish I could work in a job like this. to get up every morning. and not hate your every breath, cos its just gonna keep you alive for working at a job you hate. but to work and be creative, and love it. oh, my dream.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW LONG I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS EXACT VIDEO FOR MY COSPLAY NEEDS. And now I can ask all my devious questions. Question 1: Would you use the negative of a buck to make a positive for always or was it just for this instance Q2: Can we just use the 3D print buck as the main frame (after putting in some sand and shine to fill in the gaps) and fill in the bottom with expanding foam or other durable adhesions? Q3: What is a way to make sure wrinkles don't happen in making the sphere shape that has included in the buck some dents or indents? Do you include more holes to accommodate the new shapes?
1. Most visors would be formed over a positive buck. This was a special case. 2. Most 3D Prints will melt or under the heat and pressure of a vacuum former unless they're thick enough and/or printed solid. 3. To minimize the webbing there are a variety of techniques. I'm still learning how to better accomplish super clean pulls.
I have some questions to add here as I'm looking at the same thing, 4/ What thickness of PETG did you use? 5/ In your opinion, what is the easiest way to make a positive buck (plaster or resin) of a 3D print that is already a positive of the visor? I imagine a silicone negative mould to put the resin/plaster in to would be too expensive? As for another answer to question 3, I have friends who said using a heat gun to blow up in to the sheet to make it bubble up instead of sag down while lowering it over the mould would help, but they have a much larger pneumatically driven industrial machine. I imagine you'd just need two people for a small unit like this though. I'm going to give it a go.
What if you took two of them, used a clear epoxy, & laminated them together to get a thicker shield. Maybe drill holes at the same place in one shield & vacuum form the second one into it. Maybe combination of this?
When we did vacu-forming in art school, our teacher who was a self-taught guy with decades of experience (in various fields) taught us a few tricks he'd accumulated in his career as an artist. One, never over-exert. The proportion between wastage and good part (in the same piece) should be heavily skewed towards what's usable. It means more complicated molds, but it does end up in a better product. Two,which pertains to this particular pickle, either use thicker material that you absolutely have to bake, i remember that one of our projects required vacu-forming a 8 mm thick piece of perspex, it sat in the make-shift electric oven for almost a week, which we moved in the guard's room so he can look over at night. OR, you make your own sheet of acrylic with more mass in the center. This is beyond conventional, we've done it maybe 9 times with decent success in our attempt to "replicate" the amazing rabbits of Yamada Sobi, in acrylic. Yes, nuts. You cast the acrylic in a plaster mold which can be made by rotating the mold as you form it, thus creating a gentle slope, and thus give you more mass in the center of the acrylic finite piece. These were all done in the 2000s, so our technology and materials were far more rudimentary and crude than what you get today. Certainly, cast acrylic quality has improved immensely.
YOU (aserta) could title as a tutorial, this was more an "Experiment", although it was successful. It irritates me when watching experiments by "experts" that should be teaching not guessing.
You could probably do that if you knew wanted it really dark. I wanted to pinpoint a more specific shade so I did 5-minute stints so I didn't accidentally over do it!
I wonder if you could vac-form a thickness twice what was used? The visors *look* really good, but seem a little thin compared to what I expect the real ones are like
Visit our website to check out the all of the materials and links mentioned here! punishedprops.com/2018/10/11/adam-savage-visor/
Push the petg in with compressed air?
another material option is polycarbonate, also sold as makrolon
That fake laugh. D:
Remember to put in the link for Adams one day build using these visors. :) th-cam.com/video/8Td-YSEEKEM/w-d-xo.html&t
also you mention that video at 22:03 in this video. you could add popup link there.
Happy new year Bill and Britt, and thanks for sharing all that you do!
I think I might know why vacuum-forming the acrylic didn't exactly go according to plan.
It's possible you looked up TAP Plastic's datasheet for Acrylite FF extruded acrylic (which does say 290° to 320°F) but ended up using the Acrylite GP cell-cast acrylic (requiring 340° to 380°F) instead.
Extruded and cast acrylic are the first two categories listed on TAP's website under "Plastic Sheets" and even use identical images in their links: www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/plastic_sheets_rolls
The temperature ranges for both can be found under Thermoforming Conditions on Page 4 of this PDF:
www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Tech%20Data-Thermo.pdf
Such a mixup could also explain other problems you faced, as cast acrylic suffers shrinkage to a greater degree and absorbs moisture more readily than does extruded acrylic.
Hope that helps!
Man, what an adventure!! So awesome to see how many different types of making goes into this one project. 3D printing, woodworking, metal working, power tools, hand tools, tinting, etc. They turned out great!
Thanks you guys!
Every guy I know that has a joint account with their significant other was caught sending inappropriate messages to other ladies. You must have really messed up for her to want to make TH-cam videos together.
True!
I’ve been working in a plastic shop for a few years now. I’ve been the main vacuum former for all of our products. A few things I’d do for single parts like this to make it a bit easier.
While the baby powder seemed to work pretty well, another longer term solution is to put a compressed air system inline with your vacuum channels, when you switch your vac off, let the plastic harden (not too much depending on the plastic you are working with to prevent cracking, ex. Polystyrene) then engage the air system which works to release the plastic from the mould using the same channels the vacuum uses. Obviously just don’t use them both at the same time.
Also, a big component of vacuum forming is managing the heat distribution across the surface of the plastic.
So for such a deep negative ideally you would want different parts of the plastic sheet to be heated at different temperatures. (Usually far less in the middle to prevent thinning of the final product).
It’s a little tricky because you have such a relatively small heating solution, but a common solution is to have the different elements on their own thermostat and control system, so you can set each element to its own temp. Heating the plastic sheet proportionately to keep the best result as far as thickness.
But the main thing is thermoforming isn’t an exact science by any means. It’s all about dialing it in through practice.
Man, y'all go all-out! I appreciate the work you put into your projects AND your videos.
Thanks so much CrafsMan!
WOW didn't expect to see you here
Yes, We never had any luck trying to vac-u-form acrylic plastic. It always bubbled. After watching you video now I know why. Thanks Bill.
You got it Ted! =)
"We're happy with that, and hopefully so is our favorite Mythbuster."
*Jamie will remember that*
Just watched Adam's vid with it before this. The final product looks really good guys 🙂
Thanks so much!
Me too. It was a trip to see the project crossing from one of my subscribed channels to another. This looks SICK.
You know you've become a master of your craft when you take on a challenging project with very little specific experience, and it turns out beautifully. Well done.
Thanks so much! This project definitely pushed what we're capable of.
Wow lots of ingenious trial and error to finally get it all to work for a positive outcome. Bravo to you and collaborators.
Thanks so much!
I swear listening to you building props is just like listening to Mr. Rogers. I don't know if it's the voice or your cadence, but it's just so soothing
Won't you be my prop-neighbor? =D
Great job guys. Fascinating video as usual. Remember, “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.” - Thomas A. Edison. Or as Adam, himself, likes to say; "Failure is always an option!"
Oh, obviously you're joking about the "slave driver" bit with your colleagues/staff; but I've worked for people who wouldn't think twice about treating employees like that. Not every employer is a decent human like you.
You know you command respect when you make anything for Adam Savage. Awesome...
I really enjoy vids like this when you show failures and explain why they fail! It helps others from making the same mistakes. I do have a suggestion that might save some time. Instead of using a hot plate on the galvanized basin, use a Sous Vide immersion cooker! You could set the temperature and walk away and when it gets to temp it will alarm and it will maintain the exact temperature you need indefinitely AND it will be circulating the water/dye mix which may help with the coating process.
The way you plug your Patreon is great. Having it in the middle lets you get into the action faster than most channels that stick it up front
Thanks! We've tried to put a lot of thought into how to plug Patreon without being a nuisance.
PLA softens at a fairly low temperature and 2-part urethane foam gets pretty hot. i'm impressed that the masters didn't distort.
This is so siiiiiick! It's so easy to forget how much time and hard work goes into something like this. The visor turned out perfect guys!
Thank you so much Grace! =D
Love watching a pro do his thing. You’ll forget more than I could ever learn. Your videos are mesmerizing,
Aww thanks so much for watching!
I really do love your style bill you can tell a true maker by the fact that if you don’t have something you make it or find away around it also never lose you wit and humour
Awe, thank you so much! =)
Very true. this is the life I need
The videos are awesome. So, not that it's a bad thing, but with the music, the tone of voice, and yes the beard I definitely got a "This Old House" vibe at the end of the video! Took me back aways.
Ha! That's fantastic. =)
This is just what I needed. To find out how to make a screen. PETG whatever it is worked well. Watch that water on camera so close to the electrics. We saw that. I wonder too if you could have the holes in the vacuum opening sides first and then bottom using a solenoid valve so the sides get pulled first then the bottom to be sure of equal thickness.
So glad we could help!
@@punishedprops Any chance of asking something else though. I really really want to know how to make hard plastic which is harder than nylon even but flexible and heat resistant. Can resin do this or is it injection moulding only to achieve this?
I love it when you collaborate with Adam! You two are my favorite makers! :D
Thanks! =)
I ran a plastic forming company in the 80's. Used to use impact modified acrylics and polycarbonates. The poly was real bad with mosture, had to dry them overnite in ovens. When you go to demold put just a bit of air pressure to it and it helps it pop out of a stubborn to release from mold. Nice job.
When fighting with moisture in pmma/acrylics at what temperature should bake it? If matters I would like to bake a 2.5mm acrylic sheet and vac-u-form it. Thank you in advance.
@@icebmwpower It varies with thickness and chemical makeup of the plastics best to ask the manufacturer for actual info but keep it under the temp the plastic becomes flexible at and my guess would be under 130deg F. for standard plastics. Most acrylics are not overly hygroscopic and do not need drying where as polycarbonates do
@@TheGreatBizarro Thank you for your input.
I’ve found in the info I was looking for. Now I would like to share it here in case someone will need it...
*1) Drying the pmma/acrylics to avoid bibles is 80’C for 24 hours.*
*2) The forming range for acrylic sheet is 290-320’F (142-160’C).* edit: Usually I have success on 120’C.
Whoah! Attempting an inverted form and acrylic - you are braver than I am, Bill & Brit Doran!
I love the way you built the inverted form - I have always wound up with something much heavier and with poor vacuum. I love watching you guys and learning new stuff!
Naivety often resembles bravery. =)
This is one of the most fascinating videos I've seen in a while. Great job Bill & Brit!
Thank you!
this should be a series on mass media. i totally enjoy watching all you guys make cool stuff. thanks.
You're welcome!
i used to work with acrylic plastic for security mirrors. If you need a half sphere or dome try blowing air from underneath like blowing soap bubbles. You can use a thicker plastic and won't get tiny bubbles in it.
I got to put the helmet on at NYCC! It was SUPER cool! Very good job on those visors!!!!!
I JUST saw the photo! SO COOL. Thanks Gordon! =D
know it gunna be a good day when Bill and Britt upload
I didn't even know what PETG was before this video. Sounds like a very useful material! Not only is it easier to work with than PMMA, but from browsing some online stores it appears to be cheaper, too (at least, where I live). I think I'm going to start using PETG for projects now instead of PMMA. Thanks for the tip :)
This is the most informative comments section I have ever seen !
Great build on the visors guys - learned significantly more about vacuum forming than I did before[#which was nothing at all]. Think Adam will enjoy and like them visors for his suit. That tinting job - three thumbs up!
Hmmm. A few questions come up: like
If you wanted the clear visor more rigid, could you have piled two sheets into the frame, so they melt together as well as vacuform down?
Did you use the refuse petg to test out your tint before dunking your first piece?
And could you have let that sheet of petg sag much lower or is there a limit to the sagging?
From my experience the two sheet method unfortunately doesn’t join like you mentioned you’d just end up with two layers that wouldn’t hold together.
And there is a limit to the sag! Get it too hot and your PETG will actually burn causing it to blister and change colour and risk getting too thin and tearing before even vac forming! :)
Hope this helped!
I don't think the plastic gets hot enough to laminate together, but I've never tried it. We've done lots of PETG tinting, so we didn't need to test for this one. We could have probably let it sag lower. There is probably a point of diminishing returns though. There's a real knack to vacuum forming and I don't quite have it yet.
Thicker pet g may be a better solution. Even if two sheets would laminate together my guess is you’d end up with a lot of air-pockets between the two sheets.
Thank you everyone for your replies. I was asking in pure curiosity
Using a vacuform to laminate doesn't get enough pull to accurately mould the second layer to the first. Better just using thicker material. But could be a very cool experiment none the less!
this great, thank for the guidance/ video. we will try to do something thx again
Thanks for watching!
im done.. you got me.. it was.. the last time ive watch a cosplay tutorial.. from now, ill make them and not only watch your video !! you got me XD im sold.. you made +1 cosplayer !!step 1 : tools !! btw your technique are insane ! what a genious,basicly an engeneer!!
Heck yeah! Make awesome stuff!
I had a thought while watching the video regarding the tinting bath. Have you checked into a sous vide immersion circulator used in cooking? You can dial in the exact temperature you were looking for and maintain that temperature as long as needed. For less than 100.00 US, it might be worth giving a try.
@IQzminus A way around any issues with high/low PH would be to have a secondarey container inside the main container. Outer container would house the heater and the inner would house the die bath. This would keep the heater coil from contacting the die yet allow heat through to the inner container. If needed, both containers can be plastic with the temp only needing to be at 140° or so for the die bath.
We actually had considered it, but we already had our $10 electric burner and it works great, so we ran with that. I would be interested to see someone try an immersion circulator, but I don't think we're gonna try it.
@@punishedprops Totally understandable. :)
@IQzminus most likely the pH will not have an effect the device. I would be more concerned with dye pigments collecting on the heating element, although that may not be an issue either if properly cared for. Remember, a lot of high/low pH products are stored in plastic. It's the concentrations that you need to worry about, not the actually pH... think Coca-Cola, it has pH of 3.They also make stainless versions, but still the heating element is where the issues would lie.
you guys have the best gadgets. and make the coolest stuff..
Working in a plastic packaging manufacturing factory, this was both fun and a bit painful.
Temperature are tricky because they are dependent on the width of your plastic.
The temperature of the core is more critical than the surface temperature,that's why even though the surface temperature is correct, you have problems forming.
PET is the easiest to form and is mostly at least partly recycled plastic. If it becomes opaque and brittle, it's because it's too hot so lower the temperature or heat for a shorter time and you'll be golden. Some variations of temperature can be because of different additives in the plastic so some leeway is best
PVC is a pain to form, Polystyrene and acrylic are finnicky as well.
Smooth moulds will generally be harder to take the formed piece out of because the two surfaces will stick together, so try blowing air through the same hole where the vacuum is. hollow moulds are easier to form because when the plastic cools it detaches itself off of the mould so if possible keep to hollow moulds.
Consider turning on the vacuum before or at the same time that you put the sheet of heated plastic, depending on the mould it could help with forming and decrease the likelihood of wrinkles.
The science behind heat forming plastic, and how it behaves can seem simple but can get really complex depending on what you want out of your final product.
Any way good job with the semi-improvised setup and if any want to try please take the proper precautions because it can be very dangerous and hazardous ( gases emitted, burns, etc)
...vacuum forming looks like a variation of the specialized lehr sag bending which is sometimes used for curved automotive glass. Very interesting!!!
Hi Bill, You can vacuum form over Silicone or into silicone , believe it or not , it doesn't distort the Silicone . Give it a try. Great Video BTW
That's great! Thanks for sharing Franco. Miss you buddy! =D
Good ol’ petg! Fascinating process here. Thanks as always for showing what didn’t go right as well as the good stuff! So rad you were a part of this project the suit looks amazing!
We wanted to be a part of Team Helmet, like you! =)
Punished Props Academy Woohooo!
Hi, great work, from the little experiance i've had with vacuforming - If you had a big radius around the edge of the form the material would flow better into it and reduce the thinning. Making the unwanted areas of the form smooth would help to as the material will get 'hung-up' on the rough sections. Another option is to add a bit of vacuum to the heater box to help pre-stretch before the move to the form.
That's an interesting proposition. I think that could have helped a little bit, but in my experience the plastic doesn't "flow" as well as one might assume it would. I think some kind of form that helps push the excess material into the mold would have had a more pronounced impact. Unfortunately we didn't have much wiggle room in the schedule to experiment.
Wow, what an incredible amount of work. Great job!
Thank you so much!
Very nice, I did some visors for xwing helmets a few years ago that were somewhat similar. It was one of those items that the results turned out better than expected. Always a bonus.
Super cool!
Check out "plug assist thermoforming" if you have to do something like this again. Common technique in commercial systems and could allow you to tune the thicknesses - making the plug wouldn't take very long.
Great problem solving Bill. They came out looking really great!
Thanks so much Hugo! =D
Thanks for sharing this build. It raises a lot of "but? what if " questions as in "what if they did C instead of B". But that is how my mind works. Nice job.
Nice job!! I enjoyed watching you tint the visors, it was satisfying after each dip.
Isn't it cool?
@@punishedprops it is really cool!! I have been binge watching your videos. So glad I found your channel!
These came out looking so great! And you used so many different processes to get there! Fantastic!
Why thank you!
Hey Bill - crazy to see you got a big shop and 4 people in it.. i remember when i heard you on the morning stream alot of years ago and you had a little basement shop.. gj and cool to see this channel and the great craftmenship on it...
Pretty incredible, right?! =D
@@punishedprops Yeah man. Thats so awesome. I am taking a leap myself right now. Trying to start my own metal machine shop. It's pretty scary haha
Great build! I wonder if you could do it with an Apollo bubble helmet.
What do you think, Bill?
This just sparked something inside of me. Like I want to make props now.
Thanks for sharing!
That's wonderful! Here's a great place to start: punishedprops.com/new-maker/
Thanks, I shall digest this!
Awesome job guys! Was watching Adam's video, and was wondering how the visors were made, then he said you guys made them, and Boom, this video shows up! Glad you were a big part of this collaboration!
Woohoo!
Awesome. Great to see all the steps it takes to make something really custom. Can't imagine what the $ cost would be to hire someone to do that.
PET-G is an amazing plastic, never did manage to get the tint working though. Always got little spots or marks on it! Great video though! Very informative! Looking forward to building my own vacuum former now!
I found it interesting how the final prep utilized a glass polish typically used to restore old "fogged" vehicle headlights. A process used in scale models involves using Future Floor polish. This is an acrylic that can easily be stayed on with an airbrush or even dipped. The floor polish maintains a great surface tension that results in an even layer of coating. The outcome makes the covered material look almost identical to actual glass. I would the acrylic coating would not only protect the surface but provide a higher luster.
What brand would you use?
And it wasn't glass polish they used, it was plastic polish.
PPG-K-38 primer works well for filling printer imperfections, a light black guide coat and then sanding yields great results. 😊👍🏻
Thanks for the tip!
Hello maker! I like to do some making myself too, many times using materials that are new to me, and the one thing that I find important is how to handle all the waste that is created in the process of making. I would love to see in the end or during these videos how you separate the different waste materials for recycling or to the right kind of waste processing. A little introduction of the materials, like if they are toxic or not and what can be thrown in a sewer or garbage bin or recycling of metals and so on. This could promote more responsible use of materials and hopefully keep the environment more healthy.
An idea about the center getting thin:
As the material sags the lowest area is closest to the heating element. Thus it should be hotter than the edges and will always deform faster in the vacuum form than the rest. Try using some angle aluminium to create a diffuser across the heating elements to evenly disperse the heat while protecting the piece from direct radiation. Ideally, some airflow would help distribute heat via convection.
You can see this evidenced in high end electric grills.
Hot damn! I never would've guessed it was you two who'd made the visors for Adam's pumpkin suit! That's freakin' awesome! :D
Thanks!
Really awesome work! I love that you bring us along on your journey of discovery with showing what works and what doesn't. Thank you!
You're welcome!
Bananas! tinting with fabric dye. What a fantastic idea.
I tried dying a plastic visor as well but it didn't work out, so I used mod podge with a bit of food coloring and that worked as a tint as well!
Oh very cool!
Dying the resin on each layer of fiberglass is a great idea, I'll have to use that next time
Really enjoyed this - I arrived via Adam, having watched his video using the visors. I knew the outcome in advance, so when I got here there was no jeopardy!! Still thoroughly enjoyed it though and have subbed! Looking forward to watching your back catalogue!! Cheers!
Thanks so much for your support!
great build and video. first time I saw the tinting. really cool
Thank you!
Great video. Mixing the smooth dye (forgot what it's called) with a 2k clear and spraying it through an HVLP it gets the same effect of tinting without having to go through the heating water process. took it out of Volpin Props playbook.
Ooh yeah that's a great solution! We don't have a good HVLP sprayer/booth set up yet.
Great job guys! Looks fantastic! I've got a Halo EVA Helmet visor on the printer and this will be a Goldmine for the final version!!! Great work as always!
That's fantastic!
Has this ever been done? It feels pretty revolutionary
Suggest you might do better with a positive pattern and a ring and push mould the PETG or Acrylic. (lots of vacc form experience as a teacher).
This is great, you guys remind me so much of my shop and my team of goofball makers.
I'm 3D printing some helmets to vacuform and was debating on a negative pull and after your video I'm convinced. I've done blow molds to keep my plastic optical clear but its always a challenge to keep your bucks smooth and clean when running Plex, I'm going to try PETG.
Heck yeah!
hi bill! great work! next time however, try using water clay instead of foam to splay the part out, it'll make demold so much easier, also, that is fibreglass tissue that you're using, that is mainly used to finish off as a final layer to make it nice and smooth. next time, try using some glass matting, 3 layers then that tissue to finish it off, will make your moulds so much stronger! :D
Great tips, thanks for sharing!
Just a thought, could you do the forming in multiple steps using progressive molds to eliminate the thinning of the plastic? Or make a preform to push down instead of fingers. Nice job on the visors and the video
Lol Britt enforcing her will with that giant axe is great, hilarious lol 😆
This chanel! Are you kidding me! AWESOME! In love! Thanks a ton for sharing all your knowledge!
You're so very welcome! Thank YOU for supporting us!
How did you cut a straight line by eye? That's impressive. Or did you cut out the long sanding down procedure?
Add emery cloth to your frame & it should grip the plastic sheet better when you clamp it. If you use a shaped heat shield suspended inside your heater, you'll be able to control the melt of your plastic sheet & prevent thinning of the material during the vac mold.
I had a friend who was an optometrist and they used to use RIT dye to tint plastic lenses for sunglasses etc.
I wonder if you put a rounded rectangle metal reflector in the middle of the box, would it heat the edges at a closer rate to the middle? That might help with the thinning in the middle, no?
The problem with your heater box is that the top of the plastic is cold, needs heating from both sides for 1/8 3mm acrylic. Also positive buck moulds work better for deep items as you stretch the plastic over them and they come out a more even thickness.
Great feedback, thanks!
same. All the HALO visors I do are pos bucks
. I print the buck . then glass the inside to reenforce it . then Exp foam and dunnage. .
On the print I use ABS and acetone smooth . Pull PETG and its not too bad! .
Hi mate, just watched this, if you used a thicker sheet of PETG, the vacuum needs to be stronger, have you ever thought of putting a high pressure box on top, sealed only has to be shallow, as you vacuum pump in high pressure air in the top one. Might help with not having to use your hands. You could use a balloon type bladder to form a buck inside.
We definitely want to upgrade the suction on our vacuum.
If you put a foot switch inline with your shop vac, you can just stomp on the pedal to get vacuum when you need it.
I used to run a huge vac forming machine putting vinyl on plastic seat backs. It was cool for the first few hours than 6 years went by and now anything vacuum form related I want to go crawl into my dark hole, six feet below the ground. Good video though. Lol
Having only done a small amount of vacuum forming, I can totally understand how one can feel that way.
What type of material was the vinyl? I do upholstery and would love to learn about upholstery vacuum forming
Hmmm....
Well, first of all, thank you so much for showing us the whole process, that was great!
I was a bit concerned with the middle part of each visor getting so thin... Would removing the frame while the vaccuum is pulling the plastic down make any (positive) difference?
I'm not sure we could do that quickly enough and I have a hunch it wouldn't create a strong enough air seal, but who knows?
Crazy question. Could window glass be formed like this? (Assuming everything was adjusted to handle higher temps of course)
I have no idea! I don't think glass forms well in a sheet and would likely require a very different setup.
From my experience+research trying to make a custom running lamp/marker light for a chopper using glass, it is -possible-. BUT! it is rediculously hard to pull off & requires building some serious equpment setup & luck (I was not lucky). Glass is as forgiving as an irrate honey badger. It ended up being much easier (and would have saved me a @#$& ton of $$ + time) to just commision a glass blower/sculptor.
Rad, I didn't know you could tint plastic like that! thanks for sharing! PETG it is.
You're very welcome! =D
All I can say is....DORK!!!!
and yes I'mma try and make these, not exactly but similar.
Also why can't I use car window tint?
We haven't had luck with window tint sheets on curved surfaces. Also, the headlight spray tint is hard to see through.
Very informative. Watching to learn how to make aircraft canopies. We would like to create 0.080" (2mm) but use acrylic, so still searching.
I'm curious as to what you do with all the off cuts. Do you reuse? Recycle? Bin? I'm always keeping an eye out for things to do with my scrappies.
There's not much you can do with the cutoffs, unfortunately. Ours went straight into the recycling bin.
Hope you guys get that oven ya always wanted.
The infomercial style "my frame is just too small for this form!" was phenominal.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed that. =)
THIS CHANNEL ROCKS!!! - Junk Drawer Ideas
Thanks very much!
so ive never done anything like this so of course i have some suggestions.. // the hot plastic was already sagging when you put it over the mold but then it got hung up on the sides so you pushed it into the mold.. could you not have the vacuum suction on already even if it were turned down a bit to aid its loading into the mold.. that would suck more of the plastic into the mold and when the frame was put down into place you could have amped up the vacuum suction.. also could you not put a board or lid over the plastic in your heater to keep the heat around the plastic when you're softening it ps love watching this kind of video.. i watched the vacuum box build and the heater box build good vids
Damn, I wish I could work in a job like this. to get up every morning. and not hate your every breath, cos its just gonna keep you alive for working at a job you hate. but to work and be creative, and love it. oh, my dream.
Here's how I got started: punishedprops.com/business-talk/
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW LONG I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS EXACT VIDEO FOR MY COSPLAY NEEDS. And now I can ask all my devious questions.
Question 1: Would you use the negative of a buck to make a positive for always or was it just for this instance
Q2: Can we just use the 3D print buck as the main frame (after putting in some sand and shine to fill in the gaps) and fill in the bottom with expanding foam or other durable adhesions?
Q3: What is a way to make sure wrinkles don't happen in making the sphere shape that has included in the buck some dents or indents? Do you include more holes to accommodate the new shapes?
1. Most visors would be formed over a positive buck. This was a special case.
2. Most 3D Prints will melt or under the heat and pressure of a vacuum former unless they're thick enough and/or printed solid.
3. To minimize the webbing there are a variety of techniques. I'm still learning how to better accomplish super clean pulls.
I have some questions to add here as I'm looking at the same thing,
4/ What thickness of PETG did you use?
5/ In your opinion, what is the easiest way to make a positive buck (plaster or resin) of a 3D print that is already a positive of the visor? I imagine a silicone negative mould to put the resin/plaster in to would be too expensive?
As for another answer to question 3, I have friends who said using a heat gun to blow up in to the sheet to make it bubble up instead of sag down while lowering it over the mould would help, but they have a much larger pneumatically driven industrial machine. I imagine you'd just need two people for a small unit like this though. I'm going to give it a go.
What if you took two of them, used a clear epoxy, & laminated them together to get a thicker shield. Maybe drill holes at the same place in one shield & vacuum form the second one into it. Maybe combination of this?
I am not familiar with prop making but I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot in the process!!
When we did vacu-forming in art school, our teacher who was a self-taught guy with decades of experience (in various fields) taught us a few tricks he'd accumulated in his career as an artist.
One, never over-exert. The proportion between wastage and good part (in the same piece) should be heavily skewed towards what's usable. It means more complicated molds, but it does end up in a better product.
Two,which pertains to this particular pickle, either use thicker material that you absolutely have to bake, i remember that one of our projects required vacu-forming a 8 mm thick piece of perspex, it sat in the make-shift electric oven for almost a week, which we moved in the guard's room so he can look over at night.
OR, you make your own sheet of acrylic with more mass in the center. This is beyond conventional, we've done it maybe 9 times with decent success in our attempt to "replicate" the amazing rabbits of Yamada Sobi, in acrylic. Yes, nuts. You cast the acrylic in a plaster mold which can be made by rotating the mold as you form it, thus creating a gentle slope, and thus give you more mass in the center of the acrylic finite piece.
These were all done in the 2000s, so our technology and materials were far more rudimentary and crude than what you get today. Certainly, cast acrylic quality has improved immensely.
Thanks for sharing all the info!
YOU (aserta) could title as a tutorial, this was more an "Experiment", although it was successful. It irritates me when watching experiments by "experts" that should be teaching not guessing.
@@billl7551 Life is an experiment!
So, what happens if you leave it in for 15 minutes? Will the tint come out darker if you do, or do you have to keep cooling it every 5 minutes?
You could probably do that if you knew wanted it really dark. I wanted to pinpoint a more specific shade so I did 5-minute stints so I didn't accidentally over do it!
I wonder if you could vac-form a thickness twice what was used? The visors *look* really good, but seem a little thin compared to what I expect the real ones are like
Splendid work !!!!!!
Thanks so much!