DEBATE: Should you learn Classical or Ecclesiastical Latin?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- Should you learn Ecclesiastical or Classical Latin? This is a question I am often asked, and it's worth exploring in detail. Related questions include: Is Classical Latin superior to Ecclesiastical Latin? Is Ecclesiastical the same as Mediaeval Latin? Where did the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation come from? Is Ecclesiastical Pronunciation the same as Vulgar Latin? This and more will be answered in this heated debate from the streets of Rome! 🏛️
Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" :
storylearning.com/PolymathyLuke ⬅️
SEE SOURCES BELOW
Note: the "accents" I am using here in English are merely exaggerated caricatures of a British-type accent and a New York-type accent, but are not attempts at authentic representations of either, and I used for comic purposes only.
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
/ lukeranieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus"
learn.storylearning.com/lu-pr...
🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon:
/ 54058196
☕️ Support my work with PayPal:
paypal.me/lukeranieri
Consider joining this channel:
/ @polymathy_luke
🏛 Latin by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/co...
🏺Ancient Greek by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/co...
🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons:
• Ancient Greek in Actio...
👨🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons:
• Greetings in Latin · L...
🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel for content in Latin, Ancient Greek, & Ancient Egyptian)
/ scorpiomartianus
🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio:
lukeranieri.com/audio
🌍 polýMATHY website:
lukeranieri.com/polymathy/
🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram:
/ lukeranieri
🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast:
/ legioxiii
👕 Merch:
teespring.com/stores/scorpiom...
🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com
🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com
📖 My book Ranieri Reverse Recall on Amazon:
amzn.to/2nVUfqd
Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart
#latin #linguistics #debate
SOURCES
Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3WdPxSY
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant
amzn.to/3W4nt45
Institutiones Stili Latini, by Aemilius Sprighetti
www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...
The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3TRGZ2w
An Anthology of Informal Latin, 200 BC-AD 900: Fifty Texts with Translations and Linguistic Commentary, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3gSPOdM
Social Variation and the Latin Language, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3TQ4tVF
Early and Late Latin: Continuity or Change?, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3WcqzDn
Late Latin and Early Romance in Spain and Carolingian France (Arca Classical and Medieval Texts, Papers and Monographs, by Roger Wright
amzn.to/3gVkgE0
Breve grammatica storica dell’italiano, by Paolo D’Achille
amzn.to/3fcfv8V
De recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronuntiatione dialogus, by Erasmus (1528)
www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Ch...
Ecclesiastical Latin Versus Classical Latin, by Raphael Turrigiano:
ancientlanguage.com/ecclesias...
History in 3D channel: • ROME IN 3D - the detai...
A.Z. Foreman's channel: • "Hath Not a Jew Eyes" ...
TIMESTAMPS - see notes and further commentary in the pinned comment.
0:00 Intro to the Debate
0:58 Is Ecclesiastical Latin just Mediaeval Latin?
3:35 My course on StoryLearning: Latin Uncovered
5:32 Which sounds sillier: Classical or Ecclesiastical Pronunciation?
6:55 Is Ecclesiastical Pronunciation descended from the Roman Empire's pronunciation?
8:16 How do we know what Classical Latin sounded like?
11:55 The true origin of Ecclesiastical Pronunciation
18:30 How old is Ecclesiastical Pronunciation?
19:50 Phonemic vowel length is part of Ecclesiastical Pronunciation too!
22:35 So which should you learn?!
24:03 Outtakes!
24:59 What are you laughin' at?!
Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" : learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873
Available exclusively on the StoryLearning platform, I’ve written an original Latin novella about a daring archaeologist, a genius physicist, and a tremulous philologist who are 21st century explorers and fluent Latin speakers, on a quest for a lost relic from the Roman Empire.
This novella forms the core of my course on StoryLearning: Latin Uncovered "Vir Petasātus" - an exciting adventure that immerses you in the idiom of modern-day Latin speakers, and with a mystery that’ll keep you guessing right up to the end.
There are a lot of ways to learn Latin out there, and you know I espouse many of them, so whom is this course for, and what makes it different?
Well, one can learn with a teacher in a classroom, but others work better as autodidacts and prefer to study solo. My StoryLearning course gives the best of both worlds: you get hours of video instruction from me, where I teach you the grammar, vocabulary, how to conjugate verbs, how to decline nouns, as well as the most detailed pronunciation guide I’ve ever put together, along with lots of helpful hints on Latin syntax and idiom - all the things you might get in a classroom, but you go at your own pace, since you don’t have to schedule with any instructors or other students. Thus you get the excitement and personal adventure of learning the language on your own, with all the video lessons you need to master the basics.
As for the novella, it’s not a graded reader, and it’s like that by design, because I wanted to challenge you with a real adventure story from the very first sentence. Nevertheless, each chapter has detailed explanations of all the new vocabulary, how all the grammar works, and a full English translation, so you’ll never get lost.
And naturally, the audio of the story is in both Classical and Ecclesiastical Pronunciation, and I teach you how to do both, so whichever you prefer is the one you’ll be able to learn.
NOTES & FURTHER COMMENTARY
The line "have you got your lions crossed" at 7:38 is a reference to Nathan Lane's portrayal of the character Timon in "The Lion King," who has an accent similar to the one I am imitating here. This is also a reference to Erasmus's dialogue "De recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronuntiatione" where the Bear educates the Lion on the correct ancient pronunciation of Latin and Greek. This is referred to more explicitly at 18:20.
The line "if raisins/reasons were as plentiful as blackberries" at 11:40 is a reference to this: internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/literature/language/pronunciation.html The comment about "what" is referring to the fact that I started pronouncing a voiceless-w for "wh" in English once I began practicing Shakespearean Pronunciation.
The Arnold Schwarzenegger impression is borrowed lovingly from comedian Jim Gaffigan.
Foreigners in Italy who ask "How old are you?" often mispronounce "Quanti anni hai?" as "Quanti ani hai?" meaning "How many anuses do you have?" This underlines the non-negotiable importance of geminated consonants in Italian and Latin, as well as phonemic vowel length in the latter.
Please make a video about romanian, I am wating for ages!!
lol in portuguese "anos" and "ânus" are pronounced the same, so we are always asking each other how many anuses we have
The Latin Uncovered course, how much grammar does it cover? The same amount as Familia Romana?
Qq
Qqq
When you're so good in your field that you can only debate with yourself
Haha, I wouldn’t say that. I just tried to encapsulate both the fallacies and facts I’ve heard from others over the years.
Luke’s acting is extremely impressive
Very kind. I’m just having fun with the stereotypical accents
I agree!
Have you seen him in Decimus Helvidius Rufus and Dr. Theophilus Vornelker?
@@johnrubensaragi4125 yes ofc, it was awesome
You do a mean Joe Pesci, Luke
As a regular TLM attendee, I certainly appreciate Ecclesiastical due to the frequency of exposure and its general beauty, especially when sung. However, something about Restored Classical has a sense of power and imperium behind it.
Salve fratre Another TLM attendee here, I studied Latin in high school and Spanish as well. I learned basic classical pronunciation first and then ecclesiastical- I love both, and both are imo equally authentic, but I agree with “gravitas” of classical pronunciation is unmatched 😊 pax Cristi
Indeed. “Both” is always going to be the best answer, and “depends why you want to learn Latin” is second.
If you want to learn it to celebrate the TLM, sing (the music corpus, both secular and religious, almost exclusively was written assuming Ecclesiastical or maybe another Medieval or Renaissance local venacular-inspired dialect) or study medieval or renaissance texts (again, whether secular or religious, they would’ve assumed ecclesiastical pronunciation or a local dialect), then Ecclesiastical will be the more authentic, intended experience, while for studying the classics or a general historical interest in ancient Rome, Classical is more authentic. Context is key for any language.
@@IONATVS Context, exactly! For that reason, it makes no sense to read a late author like Rutilius Namatian with the pronunciation of Julius Caesar. Unfortunately, this is what is done in the US.
I have seen the tridentine mass, and to quote lord byron that latin was a "soft bastard" that "melts like kisses". He has to be meaning ecclesiastical latin. because ecclesiastical latin reduced the the differentiation in vowels (7 to 5) and many speakers (erroneously) eliminated vowel lengths. it definitely softens up classical latin with the strong Us and the specific stresses and lengths. thus in conclusion: classical latin is "stronger", more "pronounced", and "stricter", while church latin is "softer", more "fluid", and "easier". this is all just conjecture and depends on the feeling of speech, but you can tell me if you disagree.
I mostly attend Ordinary Form ("Novus Ordo") masses (though I do love the Extraordinary Form ["Vetus Ordo"/"TLM"]), but I'm trying to pray in Latin more often when I say my prayers in private, and I also prefer Classical Latin over Ecclesiastical.
I sometimes jokingly grumble about wanting "to speak _Latin,_ not _Proto-Italian",_ and that really, truly is a _joke,_ but I feel like there's a tiny grain of honesty in there that I just can't articulate. I'm no Latin snob; I know Classical and Ecclesiastical are mostly just distinguished by pronunciation, and Ecclesiastical Latin _certainly_ isn't _ugly,_ but... y'know?
fun fact: the distance between Luke 1 and Luke 2 in this video is approximately 3km in straight line, yet they are able to have a conversation
edit: and even have a fight
😂😂underrated
I love how the ecclesiastical pronunciation character has the Basilica as his background while the classical pronunciation guy has the Anfiteatro Flavio.
I’m glad you appreciated that
I prefer the classical pronunciation since this is not only the original, but also gives Latin its independence and identity compared to other Romance languages, and is not influenced by Italian
That’s an interesting perspective I’d not considered
I think it's just better to learn Latin with classical pronunciation. It's absolutely still applicable to Latin of all periods.
This is so impressive and entertaining. You and Farya Faraji are my two favorite content creators on TH-cam.
Farya happens to be mine as well. Many thanks.
Ha ha. As a little Roman Catholic in the 1950s and 60s I learnt both. Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation on Sundays and classical Latin pronunciation in Latin lessons during the week. Then after a few years 'they' changed how we pronounced 'w'. Cant recall now which way round the change went.
Dominus vobiscum. ❤
Et cvm spiritv tvo
Interesting. Thank you for sharing
I've found learning the classical pronunciation incredibly helpful, even though I'd never claim to speak it. I'm a folklorist by trade, and learn the WAY things were meant to be heard is just as vital for understanding them as learning what they say. The meter and rhythm of Latin matters immensely to the intended experience of, say, poetry and speeches.
That’s a great reason
As an extremely devout Catholic and passionate Latinist, my opinion, before even playing the video, is that Classical Latin is most proper for academical study, whereas Ecclesiastical Latin has an eternal place in liturgy and worship.
Your comments are always welcome, sir
I thought the Catholic Church has been (slowly) phasing out Latin since the 60s?
I agree with you. I think Classical should be used for secular study and Ecclesiastical fornchurch
Ah, yes, the Roman cult of pederasty, misogyny and homophobia. Has your archdiocese declared bankruptcy yet due to all the sexual abuse lawsuits? #pitiable
I am greatly enthused by this rather novel charactah!
I'm 5 minutes into this and loving it! Excellent voices and characters!!
Thanks, my man!
Luke you are the man. I took a few years of Latin in school; I loved it at the time and had a teacher who was also really into it and surely gave me far more info than I could wrap my (already much too small) high school brain around. However I wasn’t the best student and struggled with things like, school attendance lol.
In my twenties I started to get insanely interested in history-especially Ancient Rome and the Middle Ages in Europe, and it also led me to become really interested in languages again, Latin being at the top of the list by far. I started relearning some of the grammar and whatnot, and it’s been going well, but discovering your channel has really made me believe that this IS possible to do without going to school (which was a frustrating roadblock that kept popping up the further I went with it). I think I’m going to pull the trigger and check out your course; it really looks like the way to go. Thanks again for all the work you do and info you put out there on the great language of Latin. It is so appreciated!
Thanks so much! You can definitely learn Latin on your own, and it’s worth it. Let me know how you progress.
My Latin is extremely basic, I was only able to read the story of Pandora’s box using very simple Latin and that was years ago. I kind of gave up learning more, but this video has encouraged me to jump back in. The course looks really fun and engaging, I was studying books solo so it got kind of boring and I didn’t have much guidance, so this looks really cool and what I’ve been looking for, especially since I mainly want to be able to read Latin texts when I encounter them.
I’m glad! There are many ways to learn Latin, so if you learn it that’ll be awesome
It's also an iterative process and not quite linear, you will get better as you just learn more grammar and more vocab.
I definitely need to check out this class of yours. I want to learn Ecclesiastical Latin as I attend a Latin Catholic Mass. I can understand most of everything but would love to be able to speak it.
This makes so much sense and answers a lot of questions. Amazing research, thank you!
Thanks!
This debate is so hilarious! I use normal Classical Latin idioms in a fairly conservative Late Latin pronunciation.
Wow, it must have been tough doing a silly voice while trying to put on the appropriate accent for the language lol
It was extremely difficult 😂
I was literally just looking for a method of learning Latin without having to schedule it, so I'm pretty stoked that you made something specifically for me 😃
Heh awesome
I'm intrigued by your novella!!! Sounds awesome!
You have been very helpful in my Latin learning journey. Thank you!
Not exactly the video I expected, but like hell did I stay to the end! Bravo again
Now, I know that Luke can be a 20th-century professor!! And he can be more American than himself in his previous videos!
"Hoighty-Toighty Wax-Whiskers" just killed me!
I’m glad you liked that one
As somebody who has completed much of the StoryLearning course, I can say you should give it a try if you are interested in learning Latin!
Lūcī! Mihi valdē placet haec pellicula optima!
Grātiās innumerās tibi agō, cāre Thōmā!
So great and so fun! I learned a lot ! Thank you very much for sharing with all of us your latin adventure !🤗🤗🤗🤗🥇🥇🥇🥇😘🎉
Awesome format and acting! I’m a lowly Novus Ordo attending Catholic with little knowledge on Latin but this video kept me watching! Subscribed. Hope to learn more.
Thanks so much! I really enjoyed making it. I might have to resurrect these characters in the future. Best of luck to you in your studies and mission
That mustache of yours, fits so well, grow it and cultivate it as good as you can mate! 👍👍
I shall endeavor to do so
@@polyMATHY_LukeExcellent! 🖖
In a non Montgomery Burns way!😁
9:09 glad to see you finally pronouncing "Italian" correctly
aiteljen
Italian said like that sounds weird to me.
I've taken up learning Latin as a hobby these last few years, and your videos have been helpful. Especially the summary point: there are histories and merits supporting both conventions, so have it!--But Nail Those Long Vowels haha
As I've gotten deeper into study, my highschool Spanish muscle memory has semi-revived, having seen a lot of root words and ancestors. I began wondering, how would the Iberian Latin have sounded back in the day, and boom, here you reminded me you list a lot of sources over later latin in different regions. Thanks!
Could you PLEASE do this with Greek? I love your pursuit of historical precision while allowing for subjective preference. For instance, in Braille the rough breathing is identical to the English “H,” so I always tend to pronounce it as such. Your videos have helped me sort that out
Sure! What subjects would be debated with respect to Greek?
@@polyMATHY_Luke that I am not sure of. It would be interesting to hear a breakdown of Herasmian pronunciation. Basically, I want to hear more Greek #linguisticmasochist
@@polyMATHY_Luke If i could suggest something, maybe Attic Greek vs Homeric?
Fantástico! Gracias a ambos!
I think that Luke had TOO MUCH FUN in the production of this video! 😂
I did!
Watching your channel I came to appreciate both ecclesiastical and classical latin. Gratiās maximās, magister. 🎉
I’m really glad! They both have a place and worth of their own.
Have you played "pentiment" video game? If you love latin and late medieval history you'll just love it. Latin knowledge is not mandatory, but it will give you some hints. A real art work in my opinion.
Great channel, thank you for your beautiful work
Thanks for watching!
I enjoy your videos a lot! Keep up the good work, Luke! Saludos desde España :)
Gracias!
Thankyou for the entertaining and public answer to my question, Luke, and for the learning advice! I want to start doing this; I spend a lot of time discussing biblical Hebrew metre with my colleagues at the Society for Biblical Literature, whereas I could instead make more of a living for myself if I put my knowledge in a public and digestable form like this; and then I could send TH-cam videos to my colleagues instead of long e-mails that took 3 hours to write!
I’m glad you find it useful! I’m sure there are similar debates around Hebrew
@@polyMATHY_Luke There are, I for one am majoring Hebrew at uni and I'm sort of a "taliban" of the reconstructed pronunciation. The difference between Reconstructed and Israeli is larger than Classical and Ecclesiastical, since Israeli completely lost long/short vowel distinction. I noticed that when you recite the psalms taking vowel lenghth into consideration, they sound much more poetical and musical.
@@gabriellawrence6598 See the channel of yours truly for something very relevant to what you're talking about.
@@gabriellawrence6598 And yes! I'm arguing with and working with Hebrew linguists and Masoretic scholars to reform how stress and syllable-length is understood with respect to Accent and Punctuation. The current textbooks have it wrong and haven't incorporated the latest recitation ethnomusicology. Fortunately, Professor Khan's work on early pronunciation has been accurate; but I'm working with Dr. Sophia Pitcher and Prof. Miranda Crowdus to link a Linguistic understanding of Biblical Hebrew Prosody with a comparative analysis of the Diaspora's Hebrew Cantillation traditions. My friend Isaac Treuherz is also touring the world to survey Hebrew Psalm-recitaton and hence demystify it.
😆 I have heard that laughter and fun helps us learn. Thanks for this entertaining as informative video.
Ciao Luke! I've got an idea for a potential video that could be interesting, it seems (according to some of the best studies) that Sardinian is the most conservative romance language. So why not do an experiment in Sardegna (isola davvero meravigliosa) as you did in Rome to see if people understand latin! It could be great to see as there would be only 8% of evolution or differences between the two! Keep on doing what you do, your channel is a beautiful bet !
It makes sense to me to choose Latin pronunciation for Latin over German or Italian pronunciation. I am done with people ignoring the vowel length, misplacing the stress and adding extra word-final swa.
I understand how you feel
Both!!! btw your Ecclesiastical English pronunciation cracks me tf up, man 😂 Brilliant!!
Haha I’m glad you liked it!
@@polyMATHY_LukeMy late uncle spoke exactly after that fashion. ❤
Really? I’m delighted and amazed if that’s so haha. My “British” accent is terribly inconsistent in this character, and I get a few things consistently wrong. If it sounds like a real person, I’m very glad
This is awesome. I watched the video first before reading the comments. I laughed out loud at the Lion King line and "Quanti ani hai?" (Thanks to your 'Life of Brian' breakdown!)
It's also a good lesson in debating. That's something that has been lost in the UK school system. That lesson makes it even more funny with the line "I am subjectively right and you're subjectively wrong."
Thanks, Rhydian! I’ve never written a dialogue or a debate like this before, but it was enjoyable supporting both sides, showcasing what I believe to be fallacies as well as important facts often overlooked or unknown.
This is so entertaining, I love ❤it !
Thanks for watching, Jason!
Great video!
¿Por qué no los dos? [Sorry, wrong language!] I learned classical in middle school and was lucky enough to have an awesome teacher who taught us in an engaging and conversational way. But I also remember, when there were still Latin masses being done around here, being able to understand those as well, once you figure out the pronunciation and other differences.
My grandpa's best friend was a Catholic priest, I feel silly not to have talked to him more about it back in the day, though!
Very enjoyable. Thank you.
As I become increasingly enamoured with your channel, here is an interesting observation:
My love for Latin stems from my time at school here in Austria where I had six years of Latin *and* my Latin teacher was hands down the best teacher I've ever had - a combination of very demanding, but also capable of really conveying her passion for the subject to the students.
The pronunciation we learnt, was, for want of a better word, the "German flavour of ecclesiastical pronunciation". Like this (highlighting the differences to both classical and ecclesiastical):
Aurea prima sata'st *ä* tas, ku *ä* (or even: k *vä* ) vindi *ts* e nullo
Sponte sua sine le *g* e (the g pronounced as in German, not as in Italian) fidem rectum *kv* e (or *ku* e) colebat.
My parents who are from Switzerland (both from protestant cantons) had learnt it this way in 1960s Switzerland:
Aurea prima sata'st *ä* tas, ku *ä* vindi *k* e nullo ... etc. (so the consonants: classical, the diphthongs: ecclesiastical)
My 10-year old daughter will start Latin at school in a bit more than three years, I'm already curious what she will be taught.
The language nerd and history buff in me really prefers classical pronunciation, but I have to admit: The few videos in which you interview people from the Vatican using ecclesiastical pronunciation are really easy to follow for me without subtitles or pausing the video (it may also help that I speak fluent Italian), but when you speak with classical pronunciation, I have to either pause the video all the time and re-process what you just said or use the subtitles.
So the argument I can see for ecclesiastical pronunciation is that it is much easier to understand for people like me who just happened to learn Latin at school because they are from a country in which Latin is still very much part of the curriculum in our equivalent of high school.
However, I personally find the classical pronunciation much richer and more beautiful.
Edit: Added spaces around the parts between asterisks to make it appear in bold print rather than display the asterisks themselves.
WOW! Such an acting game, impressive!
In Romania, most of us study Latin in school at some point. I was taken aback by the pronunciation of some words as it is different from what I learned in school.
I was curious if it had to do with some 'new wave' of spoken Latin or something like that? I don't think I was aware of it until I came across your videos.
E.g. I would pronounce 'facere' as 'fah-che-reh' instead of 'fah-ke-reh' and 'aquila' as 'ahk-vee-la' instead of 'ahk-wee-la'.
P.S. I love your Latin and your online content! It's an absolutely amazing idea to promote this beautiful language the way you're doing it.
Greetings from APVLVM, my hometown, which was the largest Roman castrum located in Romania and the seat of the XIII Gemina Legion.
Indeed! I hope my videos has been a sufficient introduction. Many thanks for supporting the channel by your viewership.
I learned Latin 40 years ago in school in Austria (I finished the "Latinum" quite well but I have to admit I forgot a lot over the 40 years in behalf of grammar + vocabulary which is another story)...our pronunciation which we got taught was neither classical nor ecclesiastical....we had to pronounce "C" before the vowels i + e + ae like "Z" (meaning the German way to say "Z" obviously and not the English buzz sounding one) and "C" before the other vowels like "K"..(but based on the Nominativ pronunciation of words meaning for instance "amicus" is pronounced like "amikus" so "amici" is also pronounced like "amiki" and not like "amizi" although there is now an "i", but maybe that´s just an "austrian habit" and Germans from Germany do it differently, I don´t know, but we Austrians do alot different than Germans when it comes to language, that why our "Standard German" is bit different than Germany´s "Standard German" as well).
And that´s "the German(Austrian) way of Latin" as you already mentioned that there is one ..which I just mention for those who might be curious how that sounds like, basically foremost like "Classical Latin" except that "C" ...even our catholic priests (who were all very old men by the way) during church service did it like that and not ecclesiastical but which you might expect at least from a Cleric but obviously not from a native German speaking Cleric.
By the way your "Arnie" is hilarious I even noticed a little bit of his Styrian accent which made me laugh because the Styrian accent + dialect is one of the funniest sounding one from our 9 different ones.
Apropos accent your "Ami classical Latin guy" sounded at some point a little bit like New York for me especially when you said the word "or"
Wow I had no clue Ecclesiastical Latin had such an interesting, if rather convoluted, origin story! I always assumed it evolved naturally and was just how Italians and in particular Romans(mainly "His Holiness") pronounced Latin texts from the early middle ages onwards ... but if I understood you correctly it largely came about as the result of a "proto-erasmian" effort to come up with a reconstructed or rather just a standardized pronunciation that everyone could use across borders and individual dialects!
Especially the amicae/amiche example reminded me of a few similar situations in Greek where for example the word for "men" is "andres" in both ancient and modern basically but due to orthographic conventions modern speakers will write that as "antres"(άντρες) and when they encounter the word ἄνδρες in an ancient text spelled with a delta they automatically assume that the ancient word must have been "anðres"(i.e. with delta being a voiced dental fricative like the "th" in the english definite article) and that the pronunciation of the modern word is therefore a "corruption"(when arguably the only thing that was corrupted in this particular case was the spelling) , simply because we've all been taught since first grade that delta is always a fricative and that the only way you can get the "stop" version is through a Nu+Tau combo ... and because only few of us have the differences between ancient vs modern(/ecclesiastical) phonology(/spelling) explained to us in any detail later on, you'll find many people saying "anðres" in their speech, thinking that this pronunciation must be more "archaic" when in reality it's rather just made up!😅
Bravissimo! Very impressive high RP - appropriately reminiscent of my Junior School Latin teacher in 1973!!!
That’s very flattering! Especially since I get a lot of things wrong with it in this video. Thanks
Congratulations from Brazil! I love latin and the romance languages. As a linguistic student is so enjoyable see all these diferences in the languages
I have to say a little bit of my language. Abraços do Brasil!
😂 Fortissimo Luke! Bravo ❤
Grazie mille, Ilaria!
Muito interessante ver tantas pessoas interessadas no latim! Como católica eu sei algumas orações em latim como Ave Maria. Vídeos assim me encorajam a aprender mais.
Abraços do Brasil.
You capture perfectly the haughty, husky-voiced English scholar and the street-wise New York guy with the gift of the gab!
Thanks, man!
I'm team classical for ever ! 🎉
I love Latin. I want to be competent within a year. I'm going to check out story learning because when I start my masters there is a Latin requirement. I think this will help more than standard canvas work.
Well done bro!! I really love how you exalt both versions of Latin equally in terms of importance. Excellent content you're making.
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it
This is hilarious! OH MY GOD LOL! Well done!
Thanks, man!
Arnold actually uses an alveolar tap (or trill, not too sure about it in german) R, like many (but not all) southern German, Swiss and Austrian speakers, but that is slowly fading and more and more just becoming a rural phenomenon. When speaking German, Arnold has a rather rural pronounciation, which obviously carried over into his english pronounciation. Not sure if his non-rhotic pronounciation also carried over from there, since the system of pronouncing Rs in german works very similarly to non-rhotic varieties of english, or if it's because up until recently, vaguely british english varieties (certainly non-rhotic and british spellings like colour) were exclusively taught in most of Europe.
Very true! The accent you hear here is more like McBane from The Simpsons.
Doing family history research in Eastern Europe, I have found ecclesiastical Latin to be very beneficial to translate Roman Catholic. Records
Honestly, unless I was unimaginably lucky so far, apart from a couple hard-chargers in either camp, everyone's been pretty chill about pronunciation. I attended classes where all students used the one they liked the most (and there was something innately Polish about hearing 4 variants in a group of 6), and never had anyone blow their gasket about it.
My teacher put the reasons/etiquette really well:
1. Learn/use whichever you like, but learn it well and be consistent.
2. If you can, fit your pronunciation to your interlocutor's/listeners', especially if you're the more advanced speaker/writer.
3. If you can, use the pronunciation that fits the period the most, AKA don't pretend your *preference* is a one-size-fits-all solution for two and a half bloody millennia Latin had to evolve.
4. Just be happy you have someone to speak with instead of looking for trouble/divide.
Brilliant.
The only thing I disagree with is #3. Metrical texts of course require certain pronunciation, but for the most part any literature can be enjoyed using any pronunciation. There's absolutely no need to change pronunciation for every author or period.
@@Philoglossos There's no *need*, but it doesn't hurt to try. Kinda like 'Football Hooligan' or Brummie accent won't hurt your ability to appreciate Shakespeare, but it doesn't mean there's no merit in making an effort for more period-authentic sound.
@@dylutant I think in most cases it does hurt to try. The point of learning Latin is to have largely unimpeded access to 2,000+ years of literature, but the reality is that Latin pronunciation differed drastically throughout that time. It was in constant evolution based on time and place until the 9th century, and then after the carolingian reform it was brought back in line with the spelling, but was rapidly adapted to the spelling and phonology of every local vernacular language, which of course then continued to evolve. It would immensely hurt my reading of, say, Isidore, if I could only read him by reconstructing his 7th century southern Iberian pronunciation. And then if I want to read something written in 15th century England, should I first learn to pronounce 15th century English so that I can then accurately use the author's pronunciation when reading Latin? Of course not. If you have a particular interest in reconstructing 15th century anglo latin pronunciation I think that's wonderful, but it's of less than zero relevance to most readers. The whole point of Latin is that one size fits all - one grammar, one vocabulary, one pronunciation. If you learn that, you get to read everything, and the differences in style/vocab/grammar you can largely pick up along the way.
The case of Shakespeare is like the example I previously gave of Latin metrical texts - the sound is part of the composition of the literature, and so it's worthwhile to reconstruct a more period accurate pronunciation. But surely nobody would say that I can't read Tolkien unless I learn to copy his accent! An accent nerd may enjoy such an enterprise, but there's no point in recommending it to every American or Australian or Scot who wants to read the lord of the rings.
@@Philoglossos What about 'try to' is so ambiguous to you? Because, for whatever reason, you equate 'try to make an effort *if you can*' with whatever you're trying to exaggerate my words into. 'Cause I certainly didn't say you can't appreciate, or even read, X author of Y period from Z country if you can't do their accent/pronunciation, but you decided to read it another way altogether.
I don't appreciate hyperbole in place of argument. Read with comprehension and good will, or go argue with someone else. If you felt offended by my example, sorry, but it wouldn't change my point if I placed equally ill-fitting RP instead of Brummie.
I'm in Rome right now and good lord you got up early to get these shots 😅
It was evening actually
Would be great to have this on any school i attend. I love this data and polýMATHY is doing an epic job! Feels like the movie Bill and Ted :) // It would be great to change the current school system to knowledge we like to now. I really did not now this so if this where presented on a University or middle school that would not matter. What i think would be great that we can get good data that had a good dialog and trap frases (Plato) for a living based on the audience and dialogs that where taking place. Thanks for the share!
I really enjoyed this video, also some new informations, i didnt know that Alcuin is probably responsible for the ecclesiastical pronunciation. I learned Latin in this pronunciation and I like it very much, since it sounds so soft and very much like Italian, but the pronunciatus restitutus is very beautiful too and i learned to enjoy it too. Love this video!
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
@@polyMATHY_Luke all the best for your further work!
Btw. are aware of any Living Latin events in Europe, especially in Austria? I couldn't find anything...
That’s a fabulous question. Check Jornadas de Cultura Clásica as well as CAELVM in Spain; in Italy there is GrecoLatinoVivo, and there are often events in Germany.
@@polyMATHY_Luke thanks !
@@polyMATHY_Luke Just one more question, if you permit: you mentioned in this video, that in the 20th century the catholic church has adopted one pronunciation as it's own. Are you maybe aware which pope did it and trough which document? gratias tibi ago.
Ecclesiastical Latin always seemed like the one I should learn, as I want to read the scripts of Irish Saints(pre-schism), and perhaps write a bit of Latin using Insular Latin script, which I use to write Irish in the form of Cló Gaelach, as script descended of Insular Latin script.
This guy talks to himself a lot.
On another note, your accents are awesome. With 6 different voices, they really make your characters stand out.
Thanks! And yes I do talk a lot haha especially to myself
I like your post modern approach where your true American aviator personality is 'subjectly right' while Cleeze is 'subjectly wrong' @06:41 . I studied Latin from High School back in 1965+ and it was Classical Only ! Yet, as a Christian, I used the Vulgate to memorize vocabulary. That was a good example of 'wrong' Latin that you chose, but it was Jerome's slavish translation of the Greek New Testament that guided his translation which in turn was a slavish Aramaic use of 'quia' in that sentence. Anyway ! I read 99% Cleeze Latin daily and your explanation of it is 100%. I even prefer your Cleeze moustache over da udder guy! Thanks !
Thanks for the comment!
I would love to see you review the Latin in the Super Smash Bros Brawl theme song, Audi Famam Illius. The lyrics are onscreen in the end credits. It's such an unexpectedly poignant song for a game where Nintendo characters beat each other up.
Very good Conservative "Posh" Received Pronunciation. I've been using it lately instead of my American-based accent since I find it way easier to pronunce as a Romance language native speaker. American English with its many glottal stops and flapped consonants is way more difficult to master properly in my opinion and experience. What can you say about the tapped R in Conservative RP? You don't you use it non the video, but old-time actor did have a tapped R (e.g. Peter Cushing in all his roles and Ian McDiarmid's Darth Sidious). Was it a natural occurring pronunciation or something artificially learned? Thank you!
I never thought I'd hear a street punk complain that the church made a bible version with an uncouth subclause instead of a proper infinitive phrase.
Haha I also enjoyed that dichotomy
By the way, I'm curious how the diacritics evolved in the Romance languages, and why each language has different rules. Spanish and Portuguese mark all nonstandard stress, but treat final "-ia" the opposite, Italian marks only final stressed syllables. All three use different stress marks in different ways. French uses all three of these diacritics (acute, grave, circumflux), but uses them in completely different ways for non-stress purposes. Spanish has tilde-n and uses "ll", while Portuguese has tilde-a and tilde-o and uses "lh" and "nh". All these languages inherited the memory of Greek tone marks and Latin long-vowel apex, but they ended up in different places. How did that happen? Were there ever any movements to reduce the cross-language differences? I'd be eager to watch a video on this.
Thanks Luke!👍
Thanks for watching!
Wow great acting and voices with both characters.
Thanks, Jasper!
Do you have an origin story video about what drew you to learn Latin? I’ve been following this channel for too long not to know
Yea sir this is one of them th-cam.com/video/i4floN72cFY/w-d-xo.html
This is another th-cam.com/video/5oJctKy_r6s/w-d-xo.html
And this one th-cam.com/video/Cy3o4zWmCKg/w-d-xo.html
Aha, but what about a third option - a hybrid system with features of both (fricatives from ecclesiastical, vowel lengths / diphthongs / nasalizations from classical)?
Or perhaps a fourth - regional pronunciation?
Side note: this debate does not exist in Greek - Ecclesiastical Greek pronunciation is practically the same as in Modern Greek.
I'm going to subscribe to your course! That sounds awesome! Is there a link to where I can subscribe?
Yes! In the description
@@polyMATHY_Luke I found it later! Thanks for the reply. I subscribed. Looking forward to using the material!
Salve Lucius! Nomen mihi est Zadeus et ego sum craetanus et ego habito in Daco-Romania!
Bona Fortunam et die dulci fruimini! ❤💪
Excellent!
I swear, you're the best channel in TH-cam 😂 Love the videos man.
That’s too kind.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I'd say it's adequate
Ecclesiastical Latin is the Latin pronounciation used by Italian education, the Roman Catholic Church & is the national language of Vatican City. It is heavily influenced by modern Italian.
Classic Latin is the pronounciation system used by academia outside Italy and is the reconstruction of the Romans actually spoke.
Both have their uses.
Indeed. Let me know if I covered the topic sufficiently in this video.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
The video is good 👍
could you do a video about late latin literature, for example in the Renaissance and in the 19th Century. If you want I can point you to some documents, one I would love to see you look at is Issac Newton's Philosophiæ Naturalis.
On a serious note i do think there are more works that need translating in 'ecclesiastical' Latin, but most people who are proficient in the Latin of Cicero are more than able to translate an Aquinas or Scotus and vice versa.
You meet a much livelier crowd with Ecclesiastical Latin.
I always find it interesting hearing different languages pronounce et cetera in their own way.
I like how you stress how important phonemic vowel length is when pronouncing any type of Latin. My regret is that the long vowels are not marked with a macron in a lot of Latin texts, so somehow I need to figure it on my own for every single word or consult a dictionary online, which is too time consuming.
Luke, I definitely like the American accent you are using in this video. Is that your native accent or is it something you have chosen on purpose to maximize the UK-vs-US comical effect? Also, love your casually wearing your pilot leather jacket.
Because, folks, let us never forget our man here is a trained military helicopter pilot with the rank of Lieutenant, an achievement so demanding and selective that in se is beyond the reach of most of us - ON TOP OF WHICH our man has added a deep knowledge of several languages, including freaking Japanese, Latin, and Ancient Greek, plus an array of other notions (polýmathy, the word says it all), the counting whereof would keep us busy a good full afternoon.
Please, Luke, apply for the Italian double citizenship asap, if you haven't done so yet, so we can add your brain to the national statistics and elevate the entire country's average IQ by at least 5 points.
Thanks! The Classical fellow’s accent is my impression of a highly stereotypical New York (region) accent, similar to Joe Pesci or Nathan Lane.
I was a captain actually in the Army, though that is the same as a lieutenant in the Navy.
Grātiās! Valē
Learned classical in HS, now 48 years again. Added Rosetta Stone plus reading. Is RS any good?
Something about this reminded me of Magnum P.I. with his butler, Higgins.
Hic habemus bonam discussionem de pronuntiationibus latinis antiquis. Bonum labor!
Bene
@@waltdoherty540 Gratus tibi Valtere Dahertie (vocative of Valterus Dahertius, possible latinization of your name).
@@LUCKYDUCKIES 😀😃🙂
I prefer the ecclesiastical pronunciation for one reason only, it sounds better (just my opinion)
Hey Magister Luke, I'm not sure if this would be a good idea for a video or not. But, what would it take to change a language from what it currently is, into an entirely new language? Languages seem to just be evolutions of a previous language.
Say you change each word in English, one by one. Keeping the grammar, phonetics etc. the same. At what point is it not English?
On the opposite side, say you keep all the words the same and change the grammar. All proper nouns don't have their first letter capital, whereas all other words do. Word order is reversed etc. It's all English words, but is it a subset of English? Is it English?
English is changing slightly over time even now. Compared to those who spoke in the 70s, it sounds like everyone spoke a different dialect. Go back even further and it seems to change even more dramatically.
Figured I'd get this off my mind real quick. Maybe I had too much vinum rubrum.
I recommend Colin Gorrie’s fabulous channel for that
Your I think New York accent makes me reconsider my entire life.😂
Haha yes it’s a mix of Joe Pesci and Nathan Lane
@@polyMATHY_Luke I can’t say that I who they are. On another note I have to say I’m happy that you’re trying to speed spoken Latin. I was always taught in my brief stint with Latin that “Latin isn’t a language we speak only a language we read and write.” I always found that concept strange because the words are written right there and we knew how to say them so why don’t we speak the language. So from a guy with many different interests one of which being languages. thank you Luke.
Both. I choose both. 💜
My take is that Church Latin is for all intents and purposes "living Latin" where for all its benefits reconstructed pronunciation is the study of a fossil.
Sort of not exactly. Living Latin is the Romance languages and the pre-Carolingian pronunciations of Late Latin.
This debate reminds me a lot about Standard Arabic pronunciation, but at least they all agree that one thing is pronouncing Standard Arabic with local accent vs. when Standard pronunciation (based on religious reading tradition, also known as Tajwīd).
The case of Hebrew is much more complicated; everyone pronounced as they wanted (based on their local native languages), implicating in the loss of long vowels, emphatic consonants, etc. Then, a Polish Jew (Eliezer ben Yehuda) standardized Israeli Hebrew pronunciation based on the Sephardic community accent (no emphatic consonants, no long vowels) because he liked it the most. However, since most of Israelies come from non-Romance speaking countries, now Israeli Hebrew is mixed with a strong German and Slavic accent (Uvular R, lost of /h/, etc.).
I guess both pronunciations could co-exist if Latin may be fully revived one day. Modern Greeks also have very different local accents and they understand each other easily. Cretans pronounce also ke/ki like in Italian, but not so in the continent; Cypriots preserve long consonants, while Greeks don't; etc.
Great job, my favourite Roman citizen who speaks a good English! :D
Mark McCummins
I am a traditional Latin mass Catholic.
I am a certified Latin teacher.
A little note to all. St. Augustine, a Father of the Church, knew the Latin of his time - classical Latin. If by the Will of God that I am ever hired to teach again, I will teach classical - and Latin IV will study Augustine.
I choose Classical Latin. Which did you pick?
My first take before even watching is that I don't think it matters that much. Just learn one and then learn the differences later.
Good man. Still, you may enjoy the video.