Our Moral Objections To Hell
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2023
- This clip is from The Atheist Experience, Episode 27.27 for July 9, 2023 with Secular Rarity and Forrest Valkai!
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Christian: "Hell is actually a good thing because it teaches you a lesson"
Everyone else: "...It's eternal punishment, there's nothing to learn from going to hell because it'll never end, so there's no correctional benefit"
I would argue that it's even worse. It uses the suffering of others as a prop to force compliance through fear. They're dehumanizing people and turning them into _things_ that can only ever know unfathomable torment _forever_ and that can easily be you, so praise be our loving and just God *or fucking else.* What, you wanna be like the _others?_ You want to emulate the behavior of the faceless, nameless _outgroup?_ That sounds an awful lot like something someone destined to the pits of damnation would say!
Prostrate yourself before our sweet and caring Lord or He will sweetly and caringly subject you to untold agonies for all of eternity so that we might not be led astray for your heresy!
We wouldn't be there to _learn_ a lesson, we'd be their to serve as an object lesson for _others._ We wouldn't be people with thoughts and feelings, we'd be sacks of screaming pain-meat for the _real_ people who actually _matter_ to feel scorn for.
It's all weaponized fear to me.
Your conclusion is perfection, I am amazed by these cult members that they can see this.
And you can't even prove that a hell exists, let alone that people go there as punishment, so there is no good reason to take it as more than an empty threat.
@@capthavickind of makes him a horrible person.
@@capthavic extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
There's no hate like christian love.
Christian hate runs a close second 😉
Islamic love? lol
@forcedtohaveahandle I don't know 🤔 they seem to be less hypocritical than xtians. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I'VE never heard a Muslim say, "love the sinner, hate the sin."
hate is actually hate. Do atheists not have hate?
Simple answer to this complex question … if God made everybody go to heaven, wouldn’t that be what you guys think hell is? Big bad God forces you to be in a place you don’t want to go. You rejected God all your life and he forces you to go to heaven.
We have a word for people who try to force others to love them. It’s called stocker. The way you guys talk you think a stocker is loving…
Gods best on our quest for absolute truth
@@danpozzi3307 cool story, bro.🥱
I have said this many times and will keep saying it.
*Torture Teaches NOTHING!*
*Torture Changes NOTHING!*
*Torture Proves NOTHING!*
Love isn't supposed to hurt 🌹
I remember when GWB said that water boarding wasn't really "torture". At the time I said give me 30 minutes with GWB in my workshop with the door locked and I'll come out with signed confession that GWB himself brought down the twin towers.
@@undrwatropium3724 tell that to the children of atheist humanist being severely mutilated so there a humanist parents can pay homage to the satanic gender spirit.
@@HumanistAreDictators You are an idiot.
@@holgerlubotzki3469 Someone could make a post about apple pie recipes and A pot will just pop in with his bigotry. I wonder who hurt him.
Christian doesn't realise it but he has Stockholm Syndrome for a captor who isn't real.
It's like getting out of an abusive, manipulative, codependent relationship that you didn't realize how bad it was until. AFTER you get.
Oh and a dominant/submissive relationship since he commands us to be submissive to him.
That's very accurate.
Very original thought!! I like it -clever and witty yet true
So morally warped that eternal torture is acceptable in their minds. Truly a cult.
@kmurphy0620 it's not for any but three individuals and the fallen angels and those who have taken the Mark of the Beast in Revelation - for they have completely forsaken God and have worshipped Satan. That is just a lie you have been told.
@@wwlib5390 Hey, Garrett Strong is just a few comments below. Since you "forgot" about interacting with him before, here's another opportunity for you to interact with him again, and "forget" later.
@@wwlib5390Demonstrate that a god exists and that anything you said was true. Or once again run away and admit there’s no reason to say any one version of “god” exists or is even possible.
@@DontRespectTheUS The real question is why don't YOU know that God exists? What steps have YOU taken to seek Him with all your heart, mind, strength and soul as His Word requires? If you aren't willing to do that, then don't look to any person to do it for you.
@@wwlib5390 Why is god so passive-aggressive that he can't just show himself? He needs the finite being, who has been scouring the universe to try to understand it, to "seek" him? He couldn't just reveal himself?
This is the kind of people who centuries ago would have lighted the fire to burn heretics and witches. They send a chill down my spine and I always try to steer clear of them irl.
"witches" being women who were caught reading and learning
Yep, he's that kind of person. 'I see no problem with Hell because i'm convinced i'm not going there'
That's what I'm saying, since I have been 4-5 years old to be honest.
The more people think they are "doing as God wishes" the more dangerous they are, and this not my opinion, this is the goddamn HISTORY and even most inhuman situations just today, religion is antihuman
These people still exist in less progressive countries across the world.
The free will argument is like allowing your 1 kid to punch your other kid, when you could've stopped them (because allowing your kids to do whatever they want is super important), and then later taking the first kid to your basement and lighting them on fire for doing that.
Also, the free will argument against knowledge of god's existence is a canard because of Lucifer and the fallen angels.
You would also light the second kid on fire if he objects.
To align your argument with the Bible, the kid would know that punching his kid would get him into the basement and being lit on fire so he probably wouldn’t do that.
@@Starvant To align the argument with real life, the kid would have heard that punching the other kid might displease their absent since birth grandfather who is rumored to be super powerful to the point of doing whatever he wants, but whom they have never seen or had any contact with, and only know because their parents have told the kid to fear him.
@@yvainestelmack7196
finally! the reality i’m familiar with lol
I don’t usually comment much on these videos but listening to this caller makes me genuinely fear for the people he interacts with in real life. Listening to him so confidently and easily defend eternal punishment and not even be able to see the problem with torturing his family makes it clear that this individual is not in his right mind. His words are just glaringly psychopathic.
A perfect victim of religion...now a tinderbox waiting to randomly ignite in society due to his insane beliefs.
i’m frightened by people like this
This is why epistemology is super important.
What makes a person a sociopath?
Overview. Antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called sociopathy, is a mental health condition in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others.
@@Lightslinger42 epistemology:
the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion.
"he grappled with metaphysics and epistemology in his writings and sermons"
"God loves you so much that he created hell in case you don't love him back." - Christopher Hitchens
.
LOL
This is a very intelligent man who is so indoctrinated, his synapses cannot connect to see the glaring flaws in his reasoning. It's fascinating and sad.
That was me, except for the man part. I honestly think I would have deconstructed much sooner if someone has asked me these particular questions though. I think it would have clicked for me.
@@someonerandom256I usually ask first, "did Jesus pray to himself?" They usually say well yeah in a way
Actually, Jesus prayed to the father. Making the trinity obsolete
It's almost mind-blowing that people who severely mutilate their children because their Colt tells them without a shred of physical evidence that they have a brain of a different gender in their body these are the people calling Christians indoctrinated LOL.
It's unfortunate that you don't even realize you wouldn't be an atheist today had it not been for the talmud. Which requires its followers to push you trick you or force you into atheism.
And it does this because it teaches its followers that they themselves are human beings but the rest of the world 99.9 percent of the population of people are not people but animals put on Earth in human form with no other purpose but to serve the followers of the Talmud.
The people who mock Christians for believing in faith that Jesus walked on water. These are the same atheist that believe their own offspring mankind and thousands and thousands of years from now because of environmental reasons like weather diet and natural selection can evolve into a cockroach an apple tree and a lizard that can walk on water.
That's right you're an animal put on Earth in human form. Just like the talmud teaches
There's no idiot like a useful idiot.
If by 'very intelligent', you mean dumber than a broken toaster, then yes he is.
I dont think he is intelligent, he just learned to keep calm under scrutiny.
It's insane how this guy sees nothing wrong with Hell. That's not love: eternal punishment is immoral.
It's disturbing how this guy says what he says in such a calm tone. Like he thinks it's rational and perfectly normal with a person's eternal torture. Eerie.
In the end when he gave us 'I don't know what to tell you' was a serious take back to when I asked a family member why Covid erased believers being no different from him; and it's still a trend today. The copouts are definitely crazy to hear.
@@Dan-ys8nkIt’s empowerment. That’s all it is. He gets to say that he’s not going to hell and decides that “nanananana” is the appropriate reaction to someone SUFFERING FOREVER.
These guys were absolutely kind and measured. I’d have said, “hey Christian, what if I were god and decided to burn your family forever because they DIDN’T question their beliefs”? It probably wouldn’t make him realize his incongruity because again, POWER. It’s all power. All of it.
@@CronoXponoDon't forget control. If they can't dictate anything around them, they flipped out. Look at the US politics.
@@Benny-ut1yv I meant Christian the name, not the denomination of the religion
Hell is eternal! If my children did bad in their life and then later on turned around and said they need help doing good - I would always give them that opportunity. Eternal condemnation is not a loving proposition.
“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
"It's describing mental anguish."
I've struggled with bipolar 2, borderline personality disorder, ADHD, and PTSD for most of my life - I LIVE in mental anguish daily.
Imagine you have two kids fighting and you allowed the bigger one to kill the smaller one because you did not want to violate their free will.
That's evil.
When someone says "I'm a Christian" my immediate reaction is "Oh, I'm sorry. Is it fatal?"
I’m allergic to Christians.
@@ajclements4627 I use christian repellent which works really well. None of them come around here any more. 😇
Pull out the hand sanitizer and start spraying them. 🤣
@@someonerandom256spray the Lysol behind them 😂
Hahahaha
It's not free will if God already planned everything in your life like knowing how many hairs are on your head.
Ain't that a doozie? I believed that crap when I was young. I was always nervous and a lot of times afraid because I sky ghoul was seeing everything that I was and did. Child abuse.
I've often wondered why God killed/eliminated all humans TWICE but never tried to kill/eliminate Satan even once
@@user-sx9rx5of1coh my gosh!!
That was my biggest relief after I became an atheist. That there was no God, Satan, demons, jinn, ghosts or aliens WATCHING me. I have mental health problems anyway but I always, since I was a little kid felt like I was being watched by an invisible being because that's what I learned in Sunday school. Huge RELIEF to know nobody is watching me in the shower, during sex, smoking a joint. 😔
@@undrwatropium3724 Nothing about Satan makes any sense to me. God created Hell and imprisoned Satan there for eternity, with no way to escape. And yet, Satan is also sort of seen as the ruler of Hell, as if it's his domain and he runs it as he desires. And also, Satan can also tempt us into sin -- us, human beings, living on Earth -- all the way from his "prison" of Hell? In fact, Satan is often portrayed as if he's God's arch nemesis, almost equal in power, and the two of them are in a constant struggle over the destiny of human kind, and God just can't do anything to stop him..???
And when we die, we don't go to a _different_ Hell. We go to Satan's Hell, where he can toy with us. WHY!?? Why reward Satan with a constant stream of playthings???
Imagine in World War 2, if we captured Hitler and put him in jail. But for some reason, his cell has a telephone in it, which he uses to constantly phone random people and convert them into nazis. And the US government is just like "Huh. Well, I dunno what to do, this guy sure is crafty. We've tried asking him not to use the phone, but he just keeps doing it anyway."
I think it's a bit silly to sit around and argue about the various absurtities in holy books with their adherants when it's quite clear we have not one shred of proof that anything supernatural exists
Leave it to a worshiper of the most evil god ever invented to confuse "eternal torture" with "justice".
He already confuses "gullibility" with "virtue".
It's really hard to listen to callers like this because they have the same "he beats me because he loves me" mentality of a battered housewife.
@capthavic Did you ever consider for one minute that MAYBE you didn't read the Scriptures correctly and just listened to what others told you what words to heed and what to dismiss? Hope you will let go of the lies and then maybe you will begin to realize God's love and promise to you is given in the invitation in John 3 16.
@@wwlib5390 Or maybe you should consider not defending a book of fairytale that permits immoral things like slavery and r***. Thanks but I'm not going to love someone who threatens me with torture if I don't. Sorry for being more moral than your god. Have a lovely day.
@@wwlib5390God's word shouldn't require tons of effort to understand it. It's contradictory and mind numbingly dumb to sit through.
How about you actually try to challenge your own faith instead of making terrible excuses for your evil God?
@@wwlib5390
Is your home life ok? You keep pulling out John 3 16 and ignoring all the immorality.
There are places to go and people to speak to if you need it
@@ZeusAssassin Anything/anyone worth knowing is worth a good deal of effort on your part - God instructs us to seek with all our hearts, minds, strength and soul (as tho our lives depend on finding Him - with THAT intensity). As you come to know God through His Word, you will see there are no contradictions in what He teaches us. My faith has been challenged often - but through all the worst challenges, I cannot deny what God has done in my life that is extraordinary - He forgave my sins and redeemed my soul unto Him. Lastly, no one needs to make excuses for God, who is Perfect - they need to recognize how their behavior, words, actions, and thoughts bring anger, resentment, confusion, violence, self-indulgence, lack of love and respect and concern for others, etc, affects those around them and repent and turn to God for forgiveness and walk in the Ways He directs - which Jesus simplified for our complicated lives and minds - Love God and love others.
I spoke to a religious family member about hell.
I said that humans put people in prison to remove them from society for safety reasons and for rehabilitation.
Hell does neither of these things.
But of course she was never specific about the version of hell she believes in and also thinks her god will forgive most people, so it's not a big deal that some people will be in hell since it won't be us.
If there’s fire in hell, there’s oxygen.
If there’s oxygen, there’s trees.
If there’s trees, there’s water.
If there’s water, I’ll put the fire out.
It depends on the type of fire. There can be other oxidizing agents besides oxygen.
@@quecee Ah, darn it! i thought I had a fool-proof plan : )
@@goodday512 I think that the fool-proof plan is that there is no such thing as hell and it was really just a metaphor, even in the New Testament. The Old Testament doesn't even directly mention hell.
So I think we all are safe.
OK that was kinda funny! I realize it was a joke but, something we call kidding on the square. I presume you were making a joke, but, that the joke was based on a point.
Christianity proclaims that the ‘fire’ of Hell is real, but it’s not a material fire. The fire is the light of God.
‘Condemnation shall come because some preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.’
The claim is that we will all spend eternity in the presence of God. Those who have been redeemed will recognize that light for what it is; love, purity, forgiveness, and restoration. Eternal bliss if you will. Those who have not will see that light as eternal torment for they know not God. They will hide from that light as did ‘Adam & Eve”
I fully realize you don’t believe any of that, but, you don’t have to believe to know the proclamation. I did like the joke!
Peace to ya!
Could also be a grease fire. Made of human oils.
This is the type of caller that makes me both sad and scared of christians. The caller sounds rational and reasonable and yet at every objection he had absolutely no issues with how horrible of a monster his god is. He has rationalized it so well that if at any point he gets a hint of "God told me to kill people" he wouldn't bat an eye. Its one thing to be nuts, its another to be sane and actually agree with evil.
5:35 "We're in overtime, so we're trying to get as much out of this conversation as we possibly can."
_Continues on another 34 minutes._
I think the key point that Christian misses regarding hell is that any punishment which is eternal by definition causes infinite suffering without recourse. It doesn't matter if the punishment is as minor as having a splinter under your nail or as severe s being flayed and burned.
Not even in my most sincere moment as a Christian, did I ever once think that Hell was okay as a concept, I just never considered it from the viewpoint that GOD created it. If someone had ever pointed that out to me, and I had actually thought about it and realized the implications, and been asked questions like this, I would have likely arrived at atheism much sooner. I rationalized a lot of deeply troubling things without ever realizing it, but that fact that this guy is AWARE of it and still not changing his position, is mind- blowing to me.
Have you been watching Kristi Burke? She's awesome at helping people deconstruct.
@@undrwatropium3724 No, I haven't heard of her. I mean I'm a fully deconstructed agnostic atheist, and my husband and kids are nones, but there was a time when a channel like that would have been very helpful. It took me about a decade to fully deconstruct, because of confirmation bias, and because I would pause my deconstruction whenever I got overwhelmed by it. I'll keep her in mind in case anyone I know needs help deconstructing though.
Hell isn't an okay concept. It's the result of people being hurt by their continual sinning. Sort of like addicts are. If the citizens of hell are willing to ask for help in giving up their sin, I see no reason God wouldn't be willing to clean even that place up. But if you cherish sin so much you don't want to even consider giving it up, there's really no way to avoid the suffering it causes. Unfortunately, a lot of sin is very cherished. Treating your spouse like garbage is a sin and countless people do it without regret even though it ruins their own lives too. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high? Humanity has always been surprisingly morally irrational whether you take the religion out or leave it in. Humanity is incapable of building a utopia.
@@theboombody Sin isn't a real thing, it's simply a social/religious concept. You can do things that are bad or wrong in the eyes of mankind, but that doesn't make them sinful. Sin is doing something that is wrong in the eyes of God, and if there is no God then there is no sin. I don't believe in God, therefore I don't believe in sin, and I think that the concept of punishing someone for a made up concept is abhorrent. Anyway, the wages of sin are supposed to be death, not everlasting torment.
If a Christian rapist can get into their heaven but the Atheist child they harmed does not...I'd rather burn with the child than kick it with the rapist.
It reminds me of the Jeffrey Dahmer analogy that Forrest brought up recently. The Dahmer analogy is Jeffrey Dahmer gets into heaven after he tortured and murdered countless, innocent gay men all because he accepted Jesus as his savior before he was killed in prison. But, the gay men who were murdered by Jeffrey Dahmer are going to hell because they were gay? This is exactly why people reject the claim that God exists because of the twisted mockery of love that we see in the Bible. "Jesus loves you" but if you don't blindly follow what he tells you to do, then you will be tortured forever in hell. It's as frightening as it is illogical for people like Christian to blindly accept a claim without verification. Wars and genocides happen when people blindly accept irrational claims as truth without evidence.
There is that.
If the caller knew any person who acted the way God supposedly does he would despise him.
God is the ultimate abusive spouse, demanding love and adoration in return for violent punishment if you fail to make him happy by groveling and abasing yourself.
How anyone could love a monster like that completely baffles me.
But we also need to remember that the god of the bible was created/described more than two thousand years ago, when values were far different than they are today, and abusive violence was typical behavior by husbands and parents.
This was a great discussion on the irrationality and harmful idea of hell, thank you Forrest and Elliot for this!
He would possibly torture his family if they cursed god..this guy is lost
My mother passed away 7 years ago and loved the Lord and is probably in heaven if there is one. I'm gay and atheist and I know for sure, anywhere that MY presence does not exist is certain hell for her.
Just wait until your time comes and then your loving and caring mother gets to watch you burn in hell for eternity. That's heaven, apparently.
TAE is the best horror show on youtube. I always get the creeps when I hear cultists do their mental gymnastics to justify the insanity in their religion.
You ever heard people discuss the multiverse and how there are infinite variations of you on other Earth like planets...also sounds like mental gymnastics.
@@Conan_the_rastafarian Indeed, the fun part is that we can prove at least one universe exists. No one can do the same for the infinite variatons of gods and its metnal gymnastics.
@joeedwards4037 Yep, that's exactly true. That was my point. You've got to start somewhere when trying to change minds.
@@Conan_the_rastafarian The idea of a multiverse arises from one possible interpretation of quantum mechanics. If that interpretation happens to be correct, then we have a multiverse, if it happens to be wrong, then we don't. We could, in principle, test that interpretation if we gain more knowledge about QM. So i think they are different types of ideas.
My daughter has free will and one day mildly pissed me off. So to honour her free will i will eternally torture her?! What a good god
Certainly encourages you to want to worship that one huh?
Another reason why I think the free will argument is stupid is that if you were to murder, rape, assault, or abuse someone else in any other way, isn't that a violation of the victim's free will? Wouldn't a just, loving God care enough about their children to protect them from one another if need be? Isn't it concerning that this God is more concerned with protecting abusers than the abused?
Oh, so protecting gods ego is the most important thing ever.
An honest person argues in support of a position which appears to be rationally justified, and is prepared to change their mind.
A con artist has a goal for which they will abandon reason, advance lies & fallacies, play games, and distort.
Mercy is the subversion of justice by definition. So its not possible to be both merciful and just at the same time.
How could ETERNAL TORTURE ever be moral or justified?
I cant think of a single act or set of actions that could possibly justify ETERNAL TORTURE
Get addicted to meth. It'll make your life a rollercoaster of torture, but you'll still love it.
It’s logically impossible to justify it under any moral system that I’m aware of (unless we count divine command theory, which I don’t lol.)
This guy seems like he's one or two details away from being Hannibal Lector. That was horrifying.
The caller says "everybody experiences hell differently" or that it's simply a dimly lit room where you feel lonely, but that's found nowhere in his holy book. He came up with that to soften the blow to his own psyche, when his book explicitly states: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Do you have a verse that says eternal torture?
@rboland2173 but that's where the devil and the angels that rejected God will be that doesn't mean somebody's eternal soul will always be in hell. Do you have a passage that says the soul will be in hell for eternity
Some people would rather be tortured forever than not exist, as long as they get to keep on sinning. They love sin THAT much. You can't sin in heaven though. If you want to keep on sinning you sure can't go there.
@@AtheistCulturalMarxist Will be? are they not there already? That doesnt sound like the description other chirstians, like the caller, have given about hell. Do you have a passage that says _that's where the devil and the angels that rejected God _*_will be_*
@@theboombody What prevents you from sinning when you are in heaven?
Even we try to rehabilitate people who commited crimes and made mistakes, we don't torture them
@@Imperial-Socialist well I suppose in America like in any government they go to jail where they are being fed and sometimes learn new skills... Even though they are isolated they get visits from family and so on... Still better than God's idea of punishment
Here’s what convinced me to leave the church:
So there’s no sin in heaven. There will be a new heaven and new earth in which there is no sin. And death and hell are cast into a lake of fire.
One of two things MUST be true then:
1) god is capable of creating a perfect world without sin while also allowing for free will and no one has to go to hell but has chosen not to or 2) god doesn’t really care about freewill and forces people to be perfect in heaven.
That’s it, those are the options if Christianity is true.
And even then it falls apart; with the ability to make your own decisions, there will be sin because breaking god's rules count a sin, which won't be followed by everyone if they have autonomy. So, for there to be no sin, every being would have to be a living puppet.
@JordaynRose Or, 3, those from mankind who dwell in Heaven for eternity during their short time on earth, discovered the reality of God's existence and love for them and embraced it by faith, revealing that - even with the gift of freedom of choice - they chose to seek beyond the 'sugar-coated' lies of that 'serpent and his attempt and desire to deceive, and find and follow God and His Christ. That's what Believers chose and it came through believing upon the finished work of Christ as revealed in John 3 16.
@@wwlib5390 nah, that in no way explains how Jesus having a bad weekend could be considered payment for eternal damnation. I sin for, what, 70 years give or take and then get eternity of the lake of fire? That’s twisted.
So 4, god is a liar and has murdered more people than the devil ever thought to, and has tricked “good people” to advocate for slavery, taking rights from others, wars, crisis after crisis, etc.
Your god, if you can prove he is real, is one sick creep.
Oh! Remember that part in the Bible where god tells Moses to go to pharaoh and then on his way back down from the burning bush god attacks him? Or remember when Paul cursed a man who fell asleep during a sermon to fall out a window and break his neck and die.
Oh oh oh! What about the part in the Bible where the spirit of the lord came upon that dude and he offered his daughter as a human sacrifice! 🤣
The Bible is the most foul fucking book in existence and responsible for countless ruined lives and deaths.
But go off on just the lovey dovey parts, some of us have ACTUALLY read the book in its entirety
The other major problem is that eternal punishment is not punishment. It's just sadism.
If there is no possibility of regret, redemption, rehabilitation whatsoever - there's no way you can make up for your crime - then what's the point in the punishment? Why even do it?
Like, if a child does something they shouldn't, then you make them sit on the naughty step or beat them or whatever punishment is deemed appropriate, the purpose of the punishment is to give them negative consequences for their wrongful actions.
So that the next time they consider doing wrong, they'll remember back to that punishment - those negative consequences - and, not wanting that to happen again, choose the other path.
It's carrot and stick. Do good things, and here's some candy as reward. Do bad things, we're going to beat you with a stick.
I want candy, I don't want to be beaten with a stick. It's clear what actions I must adhere to, in order to get the candy and avoid the stick.
But the problem with ETERNAL punishment is that, being eternal, there is no end state here. There is no goal. It does not reach a destination. There can be no overall outcome. It cannot serve an ultimate purpose.
I'm torturing this evil person in a lake of fire. Why? What's that actually going to do?
Absolutely nothing, because - an eternity later - I'm still torturing this person in a lake of fire. What's the end goal here? Why am I even doing this?
There is no end goal. Because 9 eternities later, I'm still doing it. No difference. An infinite eternities later, and I'm still doing it. Exactly the same. No difference whatsoever.
What's the end goal? There can't be one, as there is no end to this. It goes nowhere. It reaches no destination. There can be no "end goal" to any of this.
Half an eternity into their punishment, the sinner repents. They see the error of their ways. They truly regret it - in their hearts - and come to believe in God.
Sorry, doesn't matter. We've got the rest of eternity to keep going here.
Note that, at this point, God is punishing a regretful, redeemed believer - if he'd changed his mind just a few seconds before death, then he'd have been forgiven and be in Heaven now - but, nope, sorry, the promise - which he can't break - is that this lasts for eternity. So eternity it is, folks.
Eternal anything can't have an "end goal". It has no destination. It cannot serve an ultimate purpose.
It can only satisfy an in-the-moment goal. That it feels good and "holy" to, right now, in this moment, torture a bad guy.
And that's just sadism. If there's no possibility of this ending at any point, that's all it can be about. Because it's not about "teaching a lesson", as even if that lesson is learnt, they still burn for all eternity regardless. You can't get out of this, as the punishment is ETERNAL.
The only thing that's left, the only thing it can be about, is enjoying "revenge". Feeling good about inflicting torture on a "bad" person (as if inflicting torture doesn't, you know, also make you a bad person too).
It's just sadism. That's all it can be, if you insist that it's eternal and that there's no possible way out of it.
(I do believe that there is a variant of Hell in a certain denomination that actually has the idea that if a sinner comes to truly repent - see the error of their ways and redeems themselves - then they'll actually let off the hook and can be "promoted" to going to Heaven, after all.
That version is still rather horrific, but at least it makes some sense. That Hell is a corrective facility. That the punishment is to teach someone a lesson. That they can rehabilitate and redeem themselves, and then be allowed free of further punishment.
But that version of Hell is very much a minority heretical belief to 99% of Christians out there (and Muslims as well, actually). The overwhelming majority hold Hell as being eternal.
And, sorry, as covered, that can't have any "end goal", if it's eternal. So the only purpose it can serve is sadism. For God to feel good and enjoy inflicting torture on "bad" people.)
Christian said hell is so bad because god doesn't exist there. He must not exist on earth either, given the poor state of things.
"Christian" is an annoying repeat caller. He sounds like he's never seriously questioned his own beliefs, like he's just spent the last three to four decades letting other believers massage irrational ideas into his brain until they just seem as naturally true as any other fact. The hosts need to coddle him less. They throw him a logical challenge, and he just keeps softly spouting apologetics as if he can just counter their logic questions with more made-up claims.
This was like the weirdest tennis match you've ever watched. Forest serves the ball. Christian just lets it fly by him, but then he takes a different ball out of his pocket and hits it into the audience. Then in the post match interview, Christian says, "well I guess we just have different playing styles."
Christian... buddy... when someone presents you with a logical challenge about the Biblical morality you believe in, just repeating other claims from the Bible doesn’t solve the problem. You cant just say, "Well, since I already know that what my pastor tells me is true, I guess there IS no logical problem!" Critical thinking requires doing more than just reciting things you've been told at church.
Unfortunately, some people need longer deconstruction versus others bringing TNT to blowing up the beliefs.
Ooof, that guy's family must be so happy...
Anyone who believes in hell deserves to have nightmares of hell until they repent of their evil beliefs.
35:29 "To answer your question of 'why doesn't God show himself'... that would sort of compromise our free will..."
- And constant threats don't?
This is why your ass got yelled at in the other call-in show...
Christians say God loves everybody, but the default position for all people is, you’re going to Hell (can you feel the love?). To avoid going to Hell, you must do certain things, including devoting yourself to God, accepting Jesus as your personal savior, etc. There are hoops you have to jump through in order to be saved. So, God’s love is unconditional once you have met his conditions.
He needs to punish himself first for allowing this mess to happen in the first place.Hell and a moral god not compatible.Only a monster could dream up such a terrible punishment for a petty crime.
Super shitty. 😞 Why does a place need to exist where people who don't worship a God get punished? So crazy. 😢 I feel sorry for people who believe this stuff.
WOW! You can tell Christian is deep af in that religious cult...sad😔
I would not want anyone I care about to spend time around someone with the mindset of this caller. It's sad how religious indoctrination can cause a person to rationalize atrocities that no well-adjusted human being should be in agreement with. What's really messed up is, he can't even see how really messed up it is. SMDH.
6:07 You know how you can make it where nobody goes to hell...? Don't. Create. Hell. Boom, I'm a better problem-solver than your god.
Or just send everyone to heaven where they will always do good and never sin. Jesus supposedly died for everyone's sins, so what's stopping god? I mean, unless Jesus failed.
Or even if he’ll does exist, make it so that only fallen angels can ever go there, and make a neutral place for all of the humans who weren’t “good enough” for heaven
If you were god I would worship you !
@@quecee agreed. Also, I've been told a billion times "Jesus took your place, he took your punishment." Oh, so what you're saying is when I die I'll go to hell for 3 days and then rise from the dead to sit on a throne ruling over the universe with a rod of iron? What's that? No, I'd be in hell forever? Okay, well then Jesus didn't take my place/punishment then, did he? or else he'd still be in hell with no way out, instead he's out here Big Dick'n the Cosmos.
Any deity that sends people to a hell for eternal pain and suffering certainly shouldnt b praised or worshipped.
This guy desperately WANTS hell to be a real thing. Which is strange and creepy.
Yes, christians love the idea that people different from them get tortured, it's their raison d'être
Christian is so indoctrinated it's sad and frustrating.
I'm so shocked that he said you have to punish evil when they already said evil gets a free pass. Not believing in a god isn't evil and this psycho is saying it is!
They have to justify their beliefs somehow
Christian sounds like a sociopath, a true believer I guess.
38:10
Shows the biggest issue with the caller.
He says here that people objecting to hell are not doing it because of logic and evidence, but instead because they just don't like God.
But this is just the caller's way of hand waving away the entire call and all the legitimate objections that the hosts brought up.
I really dislike when they say God showing himself would prevent free will when he did it multiple times back in the day according to the book. It is a horrid excuse.
If someone asked me what it'd take for me to accept that God exists, I'd answer "God". If any deities exist they'd have to prove their existence to ME to MY satisfaction.
The bible god proving his existence to me would not stop me from using my free will to tell him he is the most evil being in the universe.
I dont believe people who have called this many times and still think like this without deconstructing are even remotely emotionally intelligent. Needs to seek therapy.
God: "I love you....I love you SO much.....I love you SO much that if you don't love me back I WILL LET YOU BURN FOREVER!!! NO TACK BACKS!!!!"
Yeah, that seems moral to me, SMH...
God was the first Yandere lmao
That's not a choice. That's extortion
Subtracting 1 from infinity does not infinitely damage infinity.
This is the arguement Christian is making when he says that any teeny tiny sin is infinitely damaging to god's infinite Holiness
No finite evil can be morally responded to with infinite punishment. Also the practices of hell are what cross from "punishment" to "torture" and "revenge" and I can't think any scenario where those are actually moral. Oh they can make sense psychologically, sure, they are rooted in desires, but they are amoral at best.
I’ve sometimes used the term “righteous sadism” to describe the desire to torture or cause severe suffering to nasty criminals.
It’s fine if it’s a fictional character e.g watching Joffrey die of poison on his wedding night
But it’s not ok when it’s a real person
"Not everyone suffers the same hell so it's not exactly equal."
If I get my nails cut slightly too short for eternity, OR if I get my whole body doused in gasoline and set on fire for eternity, they are both for eternity. They are, by most measurable means, equal
In length maybe but not in intensity. I'd take the shortened nails version over the eternal burning version personally. Either way, the actual Christian conception of hell is wildly vile in all of its components.
@@sypherthe297th2and absurd
Hell is just a fucked up deal and people that commit any kind of brutal torture should ultimately cease to exist and yet people want a system that can have a plan to get revenge so they created a place of torment which is a long term bully
Apparently the new "Karens" on this channel are those that are triggered by the pronouns of the hosts being displayed.
And they won't just honestly reveal what they are really objecting to. They have to couch it in some "their genders are obvious" BS.
So what if it's obvious? What does it matter to you that it's being displayed?
Haven't you heard of "The Karens who object to people stating the FKN obvious"???
They're easy targets for ridicule. So many have come and gone. There was Roky, Freeman, Man-child, Hobson, Meredith, to name a few. Big ots without empathy.
I keep forgetting that the best way is to ask them how they assign gender. Then ask if they _actually_ do that when they meet people.
*Why would anyone worship a God who could, for ANY reason, allow his creations to be tortured for eternity?*
Forrest and SR : Checkmate
Christian: I don’t see it.
🤷🏻♂️
F and SR: Look, you cant move here nor here, that is a checkmate.
Christian: I cant help you with that.
With apologetics like this, Christian is the perfect advocate for Atheism! How can anyone listen to this conversation, and not be convinced, at least, that God as presented is an immoral character?
Props to this caller for being a very level-headed individual. He took those punches like a champ and calmly told why he disagreed.
His made-up nonsense is not a response to any of these objections. Let's all hope this guy is just pretending to believe these things because otherwise, he is a dangerous psychopath. Seriously, there needs to be a watchlist for people with this broken moral compass.
Bros! I loved this conversation just bc of how he managed himself. Very composed and open hearted. Super sweet
As he supports eternal torture….yeah so super sweet
This guy embodies the idea that man is less a rational animal than we are a rationalizing animal.
God uses she/they pronouns I will hear no objections thank you Forrest
punishment should always be on the level of the deed. there is no deed that deserves eternal punishment.
That would make it even more psychopathic because lack of empathy is the thing that keeps narcissist narcissistic.
The only crime in a Christian’s eyes is not worshiping god and Jesus.
Thats why so many priests are molesters?
Man I love forest it's so blunt and to the point and words it in an undeniable manner ..but yet so many still deny it
A good discussion. Hell is indefensible by any rational moral standard and it makes me sad to listen to a nice guy try. But it was a good discussion
Well, to be fair, it was maybe a good discussion for someone else to listen to and learn from, but I don't get the sense that Christian himself is going to let much of it sink in. He's just waiting for his turn to talk and recite something he heard in church.
@@jesse_cole I give him credit. But devoted Christians feel like they have to believe in heaven hell and salvation by grace. Without that their whole reason for living goes away. Very sad
But this isn't a nice guy. This a guy that will smile and say sorry while he is murdering you. His "niceness" just highlights his deep depravity and evil.
The caller did not make any sensible points, so not really a good discussion IMO.
@@guitardedism I disagree. I think he made good points from the Christian perspective. I don't find any of them to be credible. But that's just me 😜
It would be interesting to know how the caller knows so much about the qualities of hell. Does he have a hotline to the devil ? Could the caller ever contemplate the idea that heaven and hell are just fantasies ? Apparently not. The hosts allowed him too much time.
It's called fanfic. That's what Christians do in order to justify their interpretation. They never stop to think how their version of christianity happens to coincide with all their bigotry.
Maybe you should go get in the lines of the atheistic humanist gender faith. Like how do these atheist humanist know so much about something they don't have a physical and philosophical criteria for.
@@HumanistAreDictatorsLovely smattering of buzzwords, but be specific, or your ravings will be prematurely revealed as subhuman irrationality.
@@secutorprimus so you're arguing that being a transgender woman, being a transgender man has a physical and or philosophical criteria. Please tell us what that physical or philosophical criteria is, being as far as I know the only thing that qualifies for being a transgender woman and a transgender man is saying that you are. Which is basically meaningless if being a transgender woman and trans man has no physical or philosophical criteria outside of saying what equates to being meaningless words. But if you know something different let's hear your argument. Tell us what the physical
and or philosophical criteria that tells us someone is a transgender woman or transgender man.
Otherwise you're going to go down as a incoherent babbling simpleton
@@HumanistAreDictatorshas failed to provide any convincing reason to believe in the existence of any god or gods while also getting their account reported.
Multitasking.
I learn so much from these videos. Thank you, Guys.
My late Mother used to say although there maybe a Heaven there certainly isn’t a Hell because we go through enough Hell here already.
true
That part.
If I had to describe hell on Earth it would be a government created by humanist.
@@HumanistAreDictatorsWho would you want to run the world or run governments?
@@_Somsnosa_ I wouldn't want any particular person to run the world or a particular government.
Fortunately that's the mindset of the humanist he believes he has the right to be a dictator.
This is why humanist dictators have caused the death of more of their own citizens in the last century than all other civilizations combined since written word.
If you want to know what kind of government I would like to live under and what kind of elected officials I would have representing that government I can give you a general description.
I could tear my hair out
, if there had been proof of paternity 2000 years ago, we would know who 13-year-old Mary was in the bush with .. and mankind would have been spared the whole humbug sect..
DNA would likely point to Prince Andrew.
@@Imperial-Socialist I thought I made a funny, but you just made me spurt my beer out my nostrils! Funny as all fork!
18:17 cool cool. So God sending a bear out of the woods to rip apart 40 little children for calling a man bald establishes he isn’t holy
That story always makes me double take
@@nealjroberts4050 there dialogue tree for that story is
- they weren’t really children
- calling someone bald in those days was a threat
- they deserved it
@@Moriningland The other apologetic I have heard here from one of the regular bible babblers is that the bible says the she bears tore or mauled the 42 boys, so it doesn't actually state that the bears killed the boys. Why that makes it okay is still something only a bible babbler would know.
I still don’t get how Lucifer who rebelled against god would be okay to be the king of hell and punish people who rebelled as he did. To me it would be like siding by the one he rebelled against.
If a hell exists and Lucifer is its king, it would rather be a place where they are training rebels for the ‘upcoming’ rebellion….
There are probably enough scientists in Hell that by the time I get there, they’ll have the place air conditioned.
The idea that God has to honor our free will is absurd.
The gulf between myself and my dog is pretty big. We can barely communicate, and he's really dumb. He thinks rabbit poops are treats and that dead toads make good perfume. Because of this, and because I love him, I am his caretaker. It's my responsibility, with my love for him, to interfere with his free will when I have to, to ensure his continued safe and joyful life.
The gulf between God and man would supposedly be infinitely larger between myself and my dog. The garden of Eden story is the equivalent of me locking two dogs in a room filled with dog food in dishes, and then a full pepperoni pizza unattended on the floor. Then, if my dogs eat the pizza, I beat them, breed them for the purpose of the puppies fighting each other and beating them to make them worse. Then burning them when they lose the dog fights or if they ever show aggression to me, for freaking eternity.
The christian god is a monster.
The thing that your dogs have in common with bible babblers is that they still love you even when it's obvious to them that you are a monster.
Where in the bible does it say that hell is different for different people? Like is the fire 2 degrees cooler in some places? Some places there's weeping & wailing but some places tequila shots without lime? This is a bs claim
@@Imperial-SocialistChristianity has sin for everything, including just being born.
@@Imperial-Socialist
Yeah but that changes based on the denomination so Christianity as a whole seems to have everything covered.
If i believed any of this, sounds like I'd rather go to hell if God isn't there. 😂
Xtians: Gawd is loving and forgiving.
Also xtians: Unless you kiss gawd’s a$$, you’ll burn forever.
I'm trying to think of an answer for Forrest's amazing question "what would a loved one have to do in order for you to be okay with them being tortured for eternity?". The best answer I could conceive of is that they'd have to have done something so appallingly awful (child abuse, a spree killing, etc) that I couldn't view them as being the same person anymore. If they'd said something bigoted to someone/to me, or hit someone unprovoked, engaged in some otherwise "lesser" evil, I'd be furious with them but I doubt I'd stop loving them. I certainly wouldn't want to BURN FOR ETERNITY because they did something wrong. I couldn't even envision any of the people I'm closest to even committing the "lesser" evils I mentioned, the greater "wrong" in such a case would have to be so heinous that I'm almost certain they wouldn't do it.
1. I'm fairly confident that he's not getting that "differing severity of punishment in Hell" bit from scripture but from Dante's Inferno.
2. Punishment is a means of discipline to correct a behavior. Torture _is_ _not_ discipline, it's cruelty at best and sadism at worst. _Infinite_ torture is _infinitely_ sadistic and serves no other purpose than cruelty for its own sake.
3. "Infinite being = infinite transgression" is entirely backwards. $10 is far more significant to a broke person than a billionaire. It's an inverse relationship, so an infinity chalks up to _nothing_ having any significant impact.
4. Hurting his "holiness"? This is effectively saying "hurting his _ego_" or "hurting his image of superiority". Clearly narcissistic behavior.
5. Citing a parable to explain a made-up scenario is just using a story to justify a story, with the conclusion already smuggled into the premise. It doesn't solve anything, it just sets up another narrative to be explained.
"Hell is so bad because God doesn't exist there."
Dude, who does the Bible say crushes the souls of sinners in the bloody wine press? Not Satan, the Bible even says Satan will be tortured in hell himself. Dude got influenced by Dante and doesn't even know it
SR you are my fav on this show... you're amazing ... keep speaking the truth respectfully as you always do 💥
19:47
The caller saying, "Now if I can finish," shows that at least some part of him knows that what he just said is utter BS
Plz make me a host!
Y'all need some 'Hood Atheists' to get through some of these "Hood Theists' 🤘🏼
These kinds of arguments are great for exposing how people will bend themselves into a pretzel to support an immoral system but after a while it just takes on the same tone as an argument over whether or not Goku could beat Superman or why the hobbits didn’t just fly into Mordor on the eagles in the first place.
Theists often forget that God will know everything that will happen based on every action he can and will make
If god is all loving and all good then the existence of a hell makes no sense. If god is those things then no matter what someone did, god would forgive them, no strings attached.
“I don’t beat you because you beat the kids, I beat you because you didn’t ask ME for forgiveness AFTER you beat the kids.”
Damn! That sounds like a religious figure I could get behind! Where do I sign up?!?
Hey, considering god's knowledge of us anyway, denial was imminent to begin with. So I'll see you there I suppose.
@@LuminesBreezer-- IF the Christians are correct, their deity specifically “knows the number of hairs on our heads” and therefore knew, before he even said “Bibity Bobbity”, that most of us were destined for “outer darkness” or w/e this moron was spouting.
@@rayxavah, I think Christians added that. If their God is so loving, he will just give us our own place. He did it for Lucifer.
@@christophercuston but that also begs the question of how a deity that is supposedly “everywhere at all times” can somehow create a space where it is not.