The Real Marcion of Sinope: Origins Of A Heretic | Dr. Markus Vinzent
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- @Patristica
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I had never considered that Marcion might be the earliest theologian to understand that the Christian Messiah was a new creation and not the Jewish Messiah.
This is such a refreshing perspective on those early years. It just makes sense how incredibly influential Marcion was but the amount of vitriol and volume of written work leveled against him. Modern conservative scholars try to sweep him away as some kind of a fringe kook. Another terrific interview Jacob!
Wonderful discussion, thank you Gentlemen 👍💯🔥
The christian world needs to know about marcion
Brilliant. Thank you, Dr. Vinzent.
So grateful to have access to groundbreaking research in the field of Christian origins. Dr Vinzent is a wonderful scholar. Great channel, Jacob
Dr Vinzent is the best of the best (of the best). Jacob - thank you so much for hosting this discussion.
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Bravo! Dr Vinzent is one of your top three interviews!
My previous reading and study into Marcion was that he had collected SEVEN epistles of Paul during his time (~100 CE) and this is how we know that the three "Pastoral" epistles were not written by Paul as they were unknown to Marcion being written around 180 CE.
Dr. Markus Vincent knows knows so much about Marcion that if Marcion himself were to come back I'm sure he would be impressed and even learn things about himself.
Aaah yes, was waiting for this one!
It is all about connections: The largest population of Jews out of the Levant at the time of the Jewish wars was Alexandria. Philo of Alexandria was a Hellenized Jewish philosopher who sought to blend Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Jewish ideas, including logos and the sin redemption of the sacraficed god/king. Philo's brother was Alexander Lysimachus--who was the chief Roman taxpayer for Syria Minor--whch included Judea and Samaria, where Tarsus is located. So, Paul worked for Alexander--and was likely related to him because administrative posts most often relied on family connections. Remember Paul was rescued from a Jewish mob by a Roman cohort? Connections! Marcion and his father were merchant fleet owners--taxpayers! Marcion could well have transported writings among diaspora proto christians...and collated or improved them, which was normal practice then.
What tax was Paul collecting? Likely the Fiscus Judaeicus, imposed by Rome as reparations on Jews after the First Jewish War in 70 AD. Gives some insight about Paul's dislike of traditional Jews, who Claudius earlier expelled from Rome for proselytizing/interfering in his household matters. Christians were exempted from the tax, which was a conversion incentive. So, Marcion, who emphasized the new God from the Torah's Creator god...had pecuniary, not just philosophical reasons to convert, as others did. Marcion championed separation from Jews, like Paul. The separation from Jewishness was later toned down when the authority of OT prophecy was developed.
Interesting thoughts. I'm sceptical of Christians being in Rome under Claudius, Jew's yes, maybe a blended Jew/Christian cult.
Pliny in 110 did not know of Christians.
Excellent content, as always. I appreciate you,this channel, and your scholars, so much. ❤
Marcion was the last chance for Cristianity to liberate iself from Jewish influence.
Since Jesus, his family, and virtually his followers WERE Jewish, how exactly would that work?
@@ji8044 so what? Ethnicity is secondary. The issue is Judaism that is deleterious to Christianity. Marcion understood it. You apparently do not.
I like this man. his is a brilliant mind
We have to be careful with the terms "messiah" and "Christ". In general, people have equated the Greek "Christ" with the Judaic "Messiah". The problem with this is that when you define these words within the language they come and the definitions applied at the time. For Matthew and Luke, Jesus was a demi-god, of man and God, who was the Messiah, but not the Messiah as defined by the Apocrypha, a great general who will restore the Kingdom of Solomon or a Son of Man that will arrive on clouds of power to judge the nations. The Messiah of Matthew and Luke turn this definition on its head, where the definition is now of a demigod who would wipe away original sin and provide a new path to salvation. The problem with the Christ is that according to John and the Holy Trinity, Christ is a part of and separate from God and thus divine in himself. John was written in the late 80's CE and the spread of this view of Jesus as Christ and a divine figure resulted in the curse of the Rabbis and the expulsion of the Christians from the Synagogue in the 90s CE.
John written 80's CE? C'mon.
Picking up on some of the heresiologist, it seems likely that some of Marcion’s theology is Simonian in origin, possibly through his association with Cerdo. Marcion may have initially been a more conventional Jesus follower and his invention might have been a combination of these two nascent traditions. The Simonians probably started being completely unrelated to the Jesus movement, but by Manender’s death started just substituting Jesus for Simon. Cerdo would have been a part of this 3rd generation when he was reported to associate with Marcion
Markus: A pleasure to be here. Jacob: The pleasure is ALL mine.
Did Jacob just contradict Markus? Did Jacob tell Markus that it won't be a pleasure for him, Markus? It's a strange idiom, once you think about it.
I didn’t mean it like that. I wasn’t trying to contradict Markus at all.
At this moment i believe that mark's gospel was written by Marcion
It seems like marcions gospel was doomed to fail. How can Jesus be foretold by the prophets and yet the Jewish god was evil? How was the law meant to lead us to Christ but the law was evil?
It seems to make sense that marcion was able to build a following bc the allegorical interpretation of the OT was still young. After that took off he never stood a chance
Why would the author of Acts write about Paul writing letters? It's about what they did, not wrote.
MARCION is 'MARKION' in Greek & MARK is 'MARKON' .
Hmmm, makes you Wonder 😊
Outstanding.
Marcion is very much like a Gnostic in his beliefs except that for him salvation is not based on secret knowledge but simple faith in the work of Christ.
@@danieljliverslxxxix1164 I did not say he was a Gnostic but like one in some aspects.
I am pretty sure Roman Catholicism believes that humanity does have a divine spark and did spiritually Fall.
Marcion may have believed that man is earth without a spirit but that is contrary to key passages in the Old and New Testaments and not what Roman Catholicism teaches.
@13:00 is maybe the most important minute
MV: Marcion is claimed to have stated that his writings have been missused and wrongly attributed.
Note what is not contained therein: That Marcion claimed to have written the first gospel.
I could get the idea of pastiches created from various writings, some of Marcion and some from others.
MV: _and we can reckon that it is Mark, Matthew John and Luke_
No we can't!
It is Mark (quiore 20 pages) -> Matthew -> Luke (lacks Mark's page 9/10) -> (Mark's Editor=canonical Mark) -> John.
So the only gospel which could have been produced from Marcion was Mark, and all else then went from Mark.
But how come then that the Tertuphanius beast uses Luke to discuss Marcion? They should not!
Thus a Tertuphanian reconstuction of a psuedo-marcionite gospel is just proliferating the lie which the reconstruction tries to refute.
Marcion lived when gospel harmonies became usual (Tatian).
So Marcion would only state that his gospel harmony had been changed.
Even Tatian omitted materials which impossibly fit into a harmony.
It appears that Marcion favoured Luke over Matthew. (and thus Luke's polemic changes and reaction against Matthew).
But Marcion would not feel the need to include such an obvious polemic reaction into his harmony, hence no prehistory.
It is possible that authors falsified Marcions harmony in order to discredit him.
Now there are great lacuna in Luke once you omit the prehistory. Luke lack's Mark's page 9/10 of his 20 page quire.
So obviously author's would realize that Marcion with his Luke centred gospel lacks a lot of gospel. Those lost narratives are referring to the feeding/Nazareth riddles (Luke suspects Matthew to have torn away most of page 9/10 and thus creates his anti Matthean polemic expressed in his pedigree).
So if you added the materials to Marcion's Luke centred gospel harmony then of course it would look like as if some jewish material was added, and some anti pauline satire (the discourse about declaring all foods clean) would shine through.
So of course Marcion's statement becomes reproducable, but not in the sense that Marcion wrote the gospel, but in the sense that they exteded his harmony.
Now if someone would claim that canonical Luke is a reworking of Marcion's Luke or proto Luke or anything like that, then one has to consider the amount of anti-matthean redaction in Luke, and rather surprisingly a marcionite Luke had been reworked into an anti-matthean Luke.
Plus one had to explain whence the great omission in Luke which is best explained by the author having a damaged Mark. But why would he have worked from a damaged Mark by 140/150 AD? It's better explained when Luke was created when Mark's gospel was still underground.
Of course, we can move Mark (there are objections to this) and Matthew to the years 110AD and 120AD. However Mark looks so much as a novel to the roman non-christian upperclass audience, that the focus of this readership may not really have been interested that much by 110 AD than it was in the early 70s in the affairs in palestine.
Finally i really don't see a reason to assume a 2 staged creation in Luke.
So to me the idea that Luke originated with Marcion is unlikely and that the gospels started with Marcion is an absolute no go.
But i understand what Marcus Vincent had saird that after the Bar Kochba revolt a christianity which postulated a perfect split from the national and rabbinical Judaism was very likely. And that may explain the kind of support that Marcion had. Later again the support would vane and now it's the time where Marcion is redefined as heresiarch.
Furthermore that sparse usage of Acts is certainly notable and needs some attention.
So the merrits of the Marcion proto Luke or proto gospel proponents is not so much that they present a better solution, but they highlight some facts which are often neglected.
"The tradition" was the Septuagint. Without that, there would be no Marcion. His theology grows out of the Septuagint, plus the Roman-Jewish Wars and the destruction of the temple.
The Septuagint was only the Torah. If you mean other Greek translations of books as "Septuagint", then those would just be Isaiah, David, and Enoch. Those and the destruction of the second Temple, and you get Christianity.
Thanks
If God himself didn't actually declare Marcion to be a heretic , then we can safely assume his heresy was human conjecture.
Oh and how does God declare someone a heretic???
@@antonius3745 1) God can do all things.2) God spoke directly to humans ,(These are claims of believers/scripture )
@@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 Evangelic literalism is heresy. The Bible is written by humans and are interpretations. Your point of view is the same as of fundamentalist Muslims. The Gospels are no historical records but a catechesis for the proselytes.
@@antonius3745 Does God literally exist ? Did Jesus literally rise from the dead ? ...Yes ., well then literalism must have some validity.
@@ultrasignificantfootnote3378 You miss the point. God is more than materialism and the resurrection, Paul tell us is not the resuscitation of a dead corps.
Eccl first test for observations truman shows get solved by free gifts like hard games need clues so each need laugh to judge in grace mercy always win no matter what state of mind fail so be last to fool winners feed ego to much.
I can get served waffles cheaper and quicker elsewhere. Facts and concisely or I am off.
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Get his books!
(Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels) amzn.to/3yAbAMf
(Christ's Torah: The Making of the New Testament in the Second Century) amzn.to/3KiQTY0
(Resetting the Origins of Christianity: A New Theory of Sources and Beginnings) amzn.to/3yAbC6P
wow great content
When I heard of Marcion and his beliefs it resonated deeply as truth to me, I have long despised yhwh and the old testament. Yhwh was neither omnipotent omnipresent or omniscient. The fact that this garbage book has been so revered is sickening, during lockdown I used literally all of it as ass wipe paper, its really good and soft as ass wipe paper 📃!!!
@bled...
You little devil 😈
You may be interested in some of Israel Andersons work on youtube. Check out his video "Two Gardens and a Snake." Long form videos. He's been pouring alot of attention on this specific subject.
You literally did? I think you need to talk to someone.
Your thoughts tie to the eschatological defense of the actions in Gaza.
@@edwardblanc657 I just did so , love his work thank you fellow traveler !
Love Marcion.
Love Marcion scholars like Dr. Vinzent!
Do we know enough about early christianity to say that the gnostics were the majority of what represented Christianity as a whole UNTIL AFTER Constantine?
Phrased differently or more generically, which christian sect was the majority pre-Constantine?
The Orthodox.
We really don't know what early christians believed. I lean toward the "gnostics" being older. If the early doctrine was established there would not have been a "Wild West" of all the versions.
@@thenowchurch6419Not in the first and second centuries.
@@davidfrisken1617 That may be your pet theory but it does not necessarily follow.
For example, the Seventh Day Adventist system was formalized by
1863 yet since then there have been a "wild west" of split offs and different doctrines innovated.
Aleister Crowley formalized his Thelema by the early 19 hundreds but that has not stopped adventurers from making their own versions.
You could be right but the existence of a bunch of "heresies" is not a good support for that.
@@PhilSophia-ox7ep And your basis for that is?
Here's why the Church did nothing to Marcion while he was alive, he was wealthy. Marcion amassed his fortune from shipping, and we know the relationship between the Papacy and Money.
The important point is that Marcion's theology must have been compatible.
PS There was also no Popes yet. But yeah, the bishops etc were wealthy men.
There was no papacy, that’s an anachronism the later orthodoxy and HRC created as to support their ecclesiastical claims. There was a bishopry around the middle first century and that had little power.
There was no papacy in Marcion's time, and no "church" as you understand the term today yet either.
From whichever side we approach this theme, we always come to the same conclusion, that christianity is a wrong religion. In my opinion!
Not really, because their was also other early Christians.
Be mindful of the Roman tax on Jews that was continued by Trajan. Marion made it possible to avoid that tax, at least as an argument
Good point. Justin and Tertullian build on that potential provision by Marcion when both accentuate Christianity as "true Israel", not subject to the fiscus Iudiacus, yet still able to access Judaism's benefits of a weekly day of rest, non-participation in the Roman military and public service obligations, and non-participation in Roman cultus / festivals.
Pretty sad that there was no Jewish tax lawyer that was clever enough to find that loophole for his people 😮
The Deity of Monotheism is a borrowed and reimagined mythology.
It is clear that the Greco Roam Christianity followed the line of Marcion/Paul which made it far away from the religion of Jesus.
Influenced by the gnostic distortion by Marcion
I focus mostly on the Law. They can't adapt Moses Laws for several reasons, so they had to chose Paul/Marcion model, it fit them best. It was a deliberate choice.
@@munbrukplease explain more, I like your train of thought...
Does Vinzent believe that Marcion made up his gospel from whole cloth?
Yes, I believe so, Beduhn and klinghardt believe there is something older beyond the evangelion
That's the subject of the video we are recording next week 😁!
WT?
Is Markus just making this up out of his imagination? Marcion could omit books that didn't exist yet. The term Christianity was coined by Ignatius, not Marcion.
They are contemporaries. It's hard to say who coined what when all we can grasp are copies of copies of copies.
He could omit books that didn't exist yet? No one can do that.