One question is whether this is a result of personnel policies at Intel. Be it on the technical or managerial side. Not claiming that this is the case, but this has been a severe issue in other industries. If that is the case with Intel the gap will widen.
It's really tough to give any guarantees on completely new design. When you incrementing you can include new features in a design as you verify them, otherwise you need to reserve more time just to get sure. Intel doesn't have that time.
@@wewillrockyou1986 You're blindly ignorant to the complete overhaul of Arrow Lake. It's a migration to a tile architecture from a monolithic one. It's probably the largest architecture change since.......... Conroe? Nehalem?
I hope at least this approach drives the prices down, especially of the motherboards. Prices of Z890 Thunderbolt 5 boards dropped considerably after launch in my country. They con iron out the quirks after I got my system; please not earlier.
@@tringuyen7519 To be fair, the 7800x3d gives you 10-20% better gaming performance with a 4090 at 1080p over a 7700 non-X, while the 5700x3d gets the same gaming performance as the 7700 non-X while being on a RAM(DDR4) and Motherboard(AM4) that are twice as cheap as AM5 and DDR5 and the CPU itself is much cheaper too. Zen4 non-X(65W TDP/88W PPT) CPUs are 15-25% faster than Zen3 65W TDP/PPT CPUs, while costing significantly more, so they aren't worth it considering that Zen5 is barely an upgrade.
Once I bought an Intel Arc A380 graphics card for my old computer which has 1st gen Intel Core i7. I got a freeze during Bios and the support explained to me my system is not supported because it is too old. I never got it working. I then bougth an AMD Radeon RX 6600. I guess this card also has no official support for my old PC but it simply works out of the box. Thank you AMD! :)
now that Intel is failing, AMD will be proudly presenting 5% performance growth every generation from now on. XD Oh boy, the market is gonna suck if AMD is the CPU monopoly...it already sucks that Nvidia is dominating gpu.....
@@slimjimjimslim5923maybe consider that intel only got the performance improvements they did from running their chips well past stable? The power draw on their chips is insane and should be a key indicator.
Oh wait, I forgot intel had 5% yoy from 2nd gen i series till 11th gen Glad history is repeating itself, except I don't need to buy a new motherboard every tim a chip comes out.
@@battokizu I'm not defending Intel. But having competition will help consumers. The way I see it, if Intel really do collapse, AMD will just fill that hole with sub-par cpu for the next decade until a new AMD emerges. Either way, I got stock in all three companies, Thinking about cashing out my nvidia and amd stocks soon and take a nice vacation in italy for the summer.
A lot of it is likely software issues. I have a 10th gen Intel and have a weird issue where sometimes I don't get a video post from my dedicated GPU. I have to plug into the integrated chip (which is disabled) and toggle it on and off again. I chalk it up to an issue with Dell.
Stability was one of the few "wins" Intel still had over AMD. Even though AMD was managing to shorten the time between launch and full stability with each generation.
Lunarlake on N3 has really good reviews, Arrowlake on N3 seem really underwhelming. Seems like a design choice issue, arrowlake design doesn't seem to be optimized for performance and maybe it followed too closely what Lunarlake is doing. Also according to Anandtech: N3E is the cheaper/relaxed version of N3B at the cost of density, so it wouldn't make sense for Arrowlake to be on N3E, the performance would be even worse. Apple used N3E to lower cost since they know people will buy regardless of performance.
@@slimjimjimslim5923ARL’s CPU tile was originally designed for Intel 20A node. But Intel cancelled Intel 20A & switched to TSMC 3nm instead. Looks like it was rushed move!
Nobody. It's Gelsinger's strategy. Rather to launch an unfinished underperforming product in time than to delay the launch. MLID mentioned this change already in February 2023: th-cam.com/video/BNXlRdAKWTE/w-d-xo.html
it was actually less than 1 year between Meteor Lake and Lunar Lake. Intel's main problem with Arrow Lake comes down to the power draw most likely as it did with 13th/14th gen and the motherboards.
Intel & AMD need more improvement. Intel Price is also too much for this spec 👎 Mac M4 is rocking the field with Les Cost. Can buy a Mac mini M4 at a VGA cost.
Looks like Zen5 dodged a bullet. While definitely an underwhelming launch with definite issues, it seems to be a perfectly functional product. It's not really much if any better than Zen4 for gaming, though it does seem better in some workloads especially under Linux. The thing is that it doesn't have to be a huge step forward if it's competing with something that's not even as good as it's predecessor and isn't reliable either.
@@tringuyen7519 nope. I'm making no assumptions about future products. I'm simply saying that AMD had an underwhelming launch with Zen5, which provided an opening for Arrow Lake. Arrow Lake wasn't good enough to take advantage of that opening, so Zen5 got lucky.
Zen 5 did what it was mreant to do, massive uplift on the datacenter to make AMD more billions. Arrow LAke's target maximum was still behind the 7800X3D FYI.
@@JoeL-xk6bo for gaming maybe, but all CPUS Zen2 and above are more than good enough for gaming. Arrow Lake is a good first redesign, the price is wrong and these stability issues are a problem.
AM4, AM5 lga1151, lga1151v2, lga1200, lga1700, lga1851, lga..... If Zen6 launches on AM6 I don't think we could rightfully complain at this point. Also I hope the rushed Day1 launch reviews calms down a little bit, when a AGESA or microcode update a week later drastically changes a systems performance after the fact. Gamers nexus, LTTlabs (arguably) have shown that once people get their foot in the door of the computer world and learn a few things.... you want more than someone reading the press report. Anandtech had this gap but required people to read which is a minority, C&C (and I can't remember?) is filling in this void hence the growing following.
Many People still dont understand currently trying to compete with likes of TSMC and get more patnership to buy their nodes they building new fab designing new nodes so their target is not only for 1-2year but long term and i hope they succed because currently TSMC is market leader used by AMD,Nvidia,Apple etc, also if intel just went AMD route and outsourcing semiconductor from beginning they will do just fine, but because they stuck in 14nm for so long it kinda bite them because their funding issues they fumbling down along the way. They clearly sacrifice their end customer with the arrow lake release by rush then also planning with only just one gen for the 1851 because they just to appease investor and clearly they didnt want relies too much in TSMC itself.
That's quite the leap to think microcode is the problem. CPUs don't control the boot process. Anything i possible, I just don't see the evidence for all the fingerpointing yet. I mean I think it's Intel's fault for not testing all of these configurations first, but the impression that the chips are defective seems really hasty and unjustified.
@@LouisWaweruWhen Wendell @ Level1tech had problems with ARL in both Windows & Linux, it’s a hardware bug! For Intel to mess up even in Linux is a true achievement!
Appreciate the thoughts. Looking forward to Chips and Cheese deep dive into Arrow Lake when you guys get your hands on it
Yeah, where is the review?
Chips and Cheese not recieving a review sample is all you need to know about the current state of affairs.
I mean, he only has about 1500 subscribers. Reviewers regularly don't get sampled by chip companies with many times more subscribers
@@JBrinx18 It's not about that the site has a reputation, not everything is about viewer / reader count.
This video shall go down in history as the great 'Intel's Smurf Hand's Truth Bomb.'
One question is whether this is a result of personnel policies at Intel. Be it on the technical or managerial side. Not claiming that this is the case, but this has been a severe issue in other industries. If that is the case with Intel the gap will widen.
What kind of policies?
It's really tough to give any guarantees on completely new design. When you incrementing you can include new features in a design as you verify them, otherwise you need to reserve more time just to get sure. Intel doesn't have that time.
You're overstating to a massive degree how much Arrow Lake is "completely new" relative to other older generations.
@@wewillrockyou1986 You're blindly ignorant to the complete overhaul of Arrow Lake.
It's a migration to a tile architecture from a monolithic one.
It's probably the largest architecture change since.......... Conroe? Nehalem?
I hope at least this approach drives the prices down, especially of the motherboards. Prices of Z890 Thunderbolt 5 boards dropped considerably after launch in my country. They con iron out the quirks after I got my system; please not earlier.
& 7800X3D jumped in price!😂
@@tringuyen7519 That's fine; I don't game. And I need more than 8 cores. 😆
@@tringuyen7519 To be fair, the 7800x3d gives you 10-20% better gaming performance with a 4090 at 1080p over a 7700 non-X, while the 5700x3d gets the same gaming performance as the 7700 non-X while being on a RAM(DDR4) and Motherboard(AM4) that are twice as cheap as AM5 and DDR5 and the CPU itself is much cheaper too.
Zen4 non-X(65W TDP/88W PPT) CPUs are 15-25% faster than Zen3 65W TDP/PPT CPUs, while costing significantly more, so they aren't worth it considering that Zen5 is barely an upgrade.
Once I bought an Intel Arc A380 graphics card for my old computer which has 1st gen Intel Core i7. I got a freeze during Bios and the support explained to me my system is not supported because it is too old. I never got it working. I then bougth an AMD Radeon RX 6600. I guess this card also has no official support for my old PC but it simply works out of the box. Thank you AMD! :)
now that Intel is failing, AMD will be proudly presenting 5% performance growth every generation from now on. XD Oh boy, the market is gonna suck if AMD is the CPU monopoly...it already sucks that Nvidia is dominating gpu.....
@@slimjimjimslim5923maybe consider that intel only got the performance improvements they did from running their chips well past stable? The power draw on their chips is insane and should be a key indicator.
Oh wait, I forgot intel had 5% yoy from 2nd gen i series till 11th gen
Glad history is repeating itself, except I don't need to buy a new motherboard every tim a chip comes out.
@@battokizu I'm not defending Intel. But having competition will help consumers. The way I see it, if Intel really do collapse, AMD will just fill that hole with sub-par cpu for the next decade until a new AMD emerges. Either way, I got stock in all three companies, Thinking about cashing out my nvidia and amd stocks soon and take a nice vacation in italy for the summer.
When will your review of the 285K be ready?
to be fair the 245k and 265k are the highlight of Arrow Lake and much more interesting. The 285k is overpriced and consumes too much power.
A lot of it is likely software issues. I have a 10th gen Intel and have a weird issue where sometimes I don't get a video post from my dedicated GPU. I have to plug into the integrated chip (which is disabled) and toggle it on and off again.
I chalk it up to an issue with Dell.
Stability was one of the few "wins" Intel still had over AMD. Even though AMD was managing to shorten the time between launch and full stability with each generation.
They're launching a N3B product haf a year after Apple had already moved to N3E and somehow it's still hushed
Lunarlake on N3 has really good reviews, Arrowlake on N3 seem really underwhelming. Seems like a design choice issue, arrowlake design doesn't seem to be optimized for performance and maybe it followed too closely what Lunarlake is doing. Also according to Anandtech: N3E is the cheaper/relaxed version of N3B at the cost of density, so it wouldn't make sense for Arrowlake to be on N3E, the performance would be even worse. Apple used N3E to lower cost since they know people will buy regardless of performance.
@@slimjimjimslim5923ARL’s CPU tile was originally designed for Intel 20A node. But Intel cancelled Intel 20A & switched to TSMC 3nm instead. Looks like it was rushed move!
@@tringuyen7519 probably yield issue. Intel was like “well fuck looks like we can’t make enough defect free chips to break even”
Bro is that Noodler's Ink on your hand?
It's Pilot Iroshizuku Shin-kai ink, I prefer writing down my notes and scripts on paper with a fountain pen.....
i want to know who is getting fired for these not ready to launch rush to market products???
Nobody. It's Gelsinger's strategy. Rather to launch an unfinished underperforming product in time than to delay the launch. MLID mentioned this change already in February 2023: th-cam.com/video/BNXlRdAKWTE/w-d-xo.html
@@jiso5232Agreed. Intel will layoff another 5000 employees. But Pat will stay of course…
Arrow Lake is an embarrassment
😢
I mean, ARL is out of stock anyway.
Also LNL has been pushed early and works?
it was actually less than 1 year between Meteor Lake and Lunar Lake.
Intel's main problem with Arrow Lake comes down to the power draw most likely as it did with 13th/14th gen and the motherboards.
I’m waiting for that heat
I don't get how tf Arrowlake pushed off its Mem controller into another tile when they just moved it on same tile in LNL.
LNL is tiny so it's not as expensive to produce. Arrow Lake is huge so it's much cheaper to have the memory controller on another die.
Intel & AMD need more improvement. Intel Price is also too much for this spec 👎
Mac M4 is rocking the field with Les Cost. Can buy a Mac mini M4 at a VGA cost.
Gelsinger destroyed Intel 😢
Looks like Zen5 dodged a bullet. While definitely an underwhelming launch with definite issues, it seems to be a perfectly functional product. It's not really much if any better than Zen4 for gaming, though it does seem better in some workloads especially under Linux. The thing is that it doesn't have to be a huge step forward if it's competing with something that's not even as good as it's predecessor and isn't reliable either.
You’re assuming Nova Lake & Panther Lake will be better than Arrow Lake. Please lower your expectations if you don’t want more disappointment.
@@tringuyen7519 nope. I'm making no assumptions about future products. I'm simply saying that AMD had an underwhelming launch with Zen5, which provided an opening for Arrow Lake. Arrow Lake wasn't good enough to take advantage of that opening, so Zen5 got lucky.
Zen 5 did what it was mreant to do, massive uplift on the datacenter to make AMD more billions. Arrow LAke's target maximum was still behind the 7800X3D FYI.
@@JoeL-xk6bo for gaming maybe, but all CPUS Zen2 and above are more than good enough for gaming.
Arrow Lake is a good first redesign, the price is wrong and these stability issues are a problem.
AM4, AM5
lga1151, lga1151v2, lga1200, lga1700, lga1851, lga.....
If Zen6 launches on AM6 I don't think we could rightfully complain at this point.
Also I hope the rushed Day1 launch reviews calms down a little bit, when a AGESA or microcode update a week later drastically changes a systems performance after the fact.
Gamers nexus, LTTlabs (arguably) have shown that once people get their foot in the door of the computer world and learn a few things.... you want more than someone reading the press report. Anandtech had this gap but required people to read which is a minority, C&C (and I can't remember?) is filling in this void hence the growing following.
Many People still dont understand currently trying to compete with likes of TSMC and get more patnership to buy their nodes they building new fab designing new nodes so their target is not only for 1-2year but long term and i hope they succed because currently TSMC is market leader used by AMD,Nvidia,Apple etc, also if intel just went AMD route and outsourcing semiconductor from beginning they will do just fine, but because they stuck in 14nm for so long it kinda bite them
because their funding issues they fumbling down along the way. They clearly sacrifice their end customer with the arrow lake release by rush then also planning with only just one gen for the 1851 because they just to appease investor and clearly they didnt want relies too much in TSMC itself.
Hope Intel can fix things by the end of this year and if not, it will be very bad for Intel and for us customers.
I don't understand the conclusion that this is Intel's fault. I imagine the fixes will arrive as BIOS updates, placing the blame there.
Intel writes the microcode for their CPUs, it's just that a BIOS update is the only way to deliver updates to the microcode.
That's quite the leap to think microcode is the problem. CPUs don't control the boot process. Anything i possible, I just don't see the evidence for all the fingerpointing yet.
I mean I think it's Intel's fault for not testing all of these configurations first, but the impression that the chips are defective seems really hasty and unjustified.
@@LouisWaweruWhen Wendell @ Level1tech had problems with ARL in both Windows & Linux, it’s a hardware bug! For Intel to mess up even in Linux is a true achievement!
@@tringuyen7519 Hang on a minute, I can't come up with excuses that quickly.