Crazy that even the Pi 3 only has 1 GB RAM. RISC-V boards with similar speed CPU cores e.g. the BPI-F3 or Milk-V Jupiter or Lichee Pi 3A can have up to 16 GB RAM and 4 GB is considered small! A Pi Zero 2 with 4 GB RAM would be amazing.
I use Raspberry Pi for two things - PiAware & free Mathematica. For anything else I'll be moving to x86 minipcs, the Pi value proposition is not what it was 5 years ago.
The old cheap pi's are still available and still work just fine you don't have to buy this one. If you were using a PI as a PC you were always doing it wrong.
@@-aexc- Wolfram did a special deal with the Raspberry Pi foundation to make Mathematica (Wolfram's very powerful computer algebra system and programming environment) available on Pi on for free. The home edition of Mathematica is otherwise normally hundreds of dollars.
I like that the conversation around developers adding bloat on top of bloat every generation is happening. Hopefully more industry leaders and influencers talk about it.
@@JeffGeerling Truth! But how you pointed out, is not something people did in past, at all! And I see that as a tide to turn. And an influencer like you talking about it allows more leads to stick out their neck and talk about it too.
@@very-ann The tide will turn if large enough amount of customers would stop using bloated software. But sometimes there are no alternatives that aren't bloated. And if we talking about corporate purchases, than performance means basically nothing, tons of companies pay for MS Teams when Slack performs a lot better (while still being very slow considering power of modern hardware).
@@ninele7 I dont think the customer is capable or even needed to understand these things. I am pointing more towards industry tech leaders*. A damage that someone has done by saying "move fast break things" needs to be undone by another by saying "learn proper, make it perfect".
Why does it feel RPi have left their "lets get a cheap computer out to encourage kids to program" ethos. I mean it is $50 for the board, plus PSU, HDMI cable(s), storage.
It feels that way because it largely has. Them prioritizing large businesses during the COVID shortages is undeniably that (and before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I am not criticizing* that choice but it is objectively an example of that) I think the lower ram models are still good at that, we have to consider that $35 in 2012 is >$50 now, but I would personally like to see them pay more attention to the 0 series for that reason *I absolutely hate it but I recognize that it was probably the better business choice
The documentation still makes RPi the best platform to get kids to program (assuming there is value in that now that we have LLMs that can code better than most).
The trouble is...none of these use cases are better on a Pi than on an old i5 NUC. The only advantage that the Pi has is the accessible pins, but that's not really of any use to somebody trying to train AI models etc. Hell, even running it as a NAS, the network and CPU performance are far more of a bottleneck than the RAM capacity.
Yeah and Nvidias cheap af new Jetson Orin nano super whams this point in like a double tap dead kill shot. Then when I realize that the Orin nano became more performance than the best flagship of the first gen, for less money than the first orin nano and even less than some of the jetson nano with carrier board. They achieved this with a software upgrade. If this is true and it is I actually have the funny honor of buying Amazon’s literally last one for the Nvidia 249$ price. Some shill for pi was talking about how he would choose the pi with the hailo 8L m.2 for 26 tops for 200+ (so 100/100 for the raspberry pi and the hat, but not counting all the other things you need. Versus the Orin nano 8GB super that has ddr5 ram, 40 GPIO pins, full size display port, power and usb c, usb 3.2s (I believe, could be 3.1 but I don’t care because all serious peripherals use the C or we can get around it with the pins) built in heat sink and fan and has an actual GPU from Nvidia. Also, just…. Take the hailo m.2 and put it in the m.2 slot on the hailo. Then you can run raspberry pi OS on the thing and it’s literally the same product they were saying beats the Orin. And you could add another one. If you rely only on a SD card for the OS. But I don’t recommend that. Unless, you lose the WiFi card for a usb wifi, or boot live off of a NVMe usb, and then you can use 3 coral TPU or 3 hailo natively you just need an adapter for the mini PCIe or use the TPU/coral that uses that natively Or…. What I’m gonna do. Is what he did. EGPU, but you can occulink it right into the m.2 for full m.2 access the same as a desktop. My real curiosity is if they can somehow get some PCIe bufrucation (not sure yet if that’s even on the radar or already there) then could one somehow custom pcb a way to create a full x8 or more pcie by merging two of the occulink ribbons into a egpu dock? I would gladly and for my main motherboard I would do this too I would love to recover as many PCIe lanes as possible and give up EVERYRHIBG else. CPU slot ram slot bios and chipset, power, and then maybe Ethernet NIC on the main board, and just about as many USB C as Apple is using right now with power draw, and a usb A for compatibility sake. And that’s it Everything else every single ounce of PCIe squeezed in the board. What doesn’t fit in form factor can be m.2 slots on the back of the board. The back of the board and the form factor m.2 is really such a huge real estate addition for any motherboard and Nvidia really out that to use. It’s so obvious and yet there the first I’ve seen to out all the m.2 and the WiFi on the back. Why didn’t pi do that what’s with the hat and ribbon. The hat space is for all the geeky maker stuff I think it’s egregious that basic functionality requires a hat. Nvidias board has the GPIO and it’s darn hard to even think of a hat to use because everything is already there. It really is an AI first dev kit, but it just makes me laugh when you realize like the competitions entire performance is not a pi’s native feature. Whether coral or hailo or what have you. You can run it full blast on the jetson because it’s a true and proper NVMe drive full length, smaller (fine for all these guys) and the mini PCIe Now I know I said the back of the board is awesome but I do wish the Zima style side PCIe was used but then upon reflection. This makes sense as well Even tho it’s ai first, the back of the board and the top doesn’t really limit the final product form but having a add on card coming off the side only works for Zima because Zima is meant to be a server and tinkering almost hor swap for case use Sure it would be nice to have a x4 on the side but what do Zima users use that for anyway? To add things the Orin already has, such as 2 m.2 lanes haha One thing for sure all SBC needs to do. Is get there native Ethernet fixed. Gigabit is bare minimum fine but like we’re seeing mini pcs and cheap routers with fiber optic so why not. It’s like fiber optic was made for the IoT world. Or at least do a 5 gb Ethernet or 2.5 2.5 converged I don’t know what the reason for not doing that is… perhaps WiFi 7 will make the Ethernet situation not as dire But with there too can bring power along with it. Hmm Gonna find out if my nvidia orin can just slide out and slide into another carrier board or what I have to do to make my own.
@@JohanNewazJohn If you're trying to rum LLMs, then the Jetson Orin is a horrible value compared to this. 8GB RAM for $250 is half the RAM for twice the price. The processor is obviously slower here, but if you're just trying to run the largest model possible at modest speeds, this is by far the better way to go.
For the Steam CPU usage it's not only decompression, it's also decryption. This is CPU intensive for any CPU, even if there's instruction support for AES-NI etc.
Well AES-NI does do quite heavy lifting and seems to drop the CPU usage by around like 5-10x or so in web server tests, but ARMs Instructions for that kind of acceleration probably work differently and I'm not sure if they'd scale the same, if the PI even has such instructions, I believe it's not ARM9 or 10, but still ARM8 I think? Not sure though.
While decryption does use the CPU, I would hardly call it CPU heavy. Your CPU can encrypt and decrypt probably a hundred times faster than steam can get you a game file
120$ without proper heatsink, powersupply, case, and with crappy usb storage... I moved away from Pi's for all my home automation, energy monitoring/management,... stuff. Especially the usb storage gave me stability issues and it was too "fiddly" for me. Now I run unraid on a mini PC with 6 sata disks as NAS and 'non critical' containers. And a rock5b board (16Gb ram) with 1TB nvme storage for everything home automation related, running a dozen or so containers. It's been rock stable this far, but if the latter would break down, I will replace it with a mini pc as well and move away from ARM SBCs. For anything that requires gpio's, I tend to try to use something from the ESP32-family microcontrollers.
Exactly. I actually have a hard time finding useful applications for the Pi, given the price. Most of the electronics projects I see with a Pi could easily be done with an ESP32 (even an underpowered ESP8266), and for anything that needs more power, Proxmox on a 6th Gen+ Intel box gives way better flexibility, reliability, and value/performance per dollar. For stuff like Home Assistant, I'm glad I went straight to a Proxmox VM instead of a PI due to the growing CPU/memory demands that would choke a Pi.
A second hand notebook with specs that overpower a Pi can be bough for much less, are plentiful and you may get them locally. Sometimes they can be acquired for peanuts if you just need a working motherboard (like the Pi) without the rest of the notebook paraphernalia (screen, battery, keyboard, etc.). Just find one that has those broken/damaged parts but otherwise has a working motherboard. And x86/x64 architecture is decades better documented as a platform than the Pi. Add to that, the fact that you are helping the environment by recycling e-waste. It is a no brainer, the Pi has no competitive future for the home user if they don't change their ridiculous pricing strategy.
The equation on the graph at 0:27 took me a minute to understand. I was trying to plug in 32 GB to see what a hypothetical Pi with that much ram would cost, only to get an absurd value over $7000. The equation seems to be treating 2 GB as x=1, 4 GB as x=2, 8 GB as x=3, and 16 GB as x=4. If I follow the pattern and use 32 GB as x=5, it comes out to $172.50 instead. However, that got me wondering what a normal linear fit using the actual GB values would look like, and it turns out that y=5x+40 exactly (r squared = 1). In that case, a 32 GB Pi would come out to 5*32+40 = $200.
@@nikestream5013 19th grade? Praying that you graduate soon!
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2GB model - 40 + 10$ per RAM chip, 4GB = 40 + 20 $ for RAM, 8GB 40+40 , 16GB = 40+80$, so 32GB would be 40 +160 , hence 200 dollars... but i doubt there will be any 32GB single chip RAM IC module, not before Pi 6. And Rpi foundation will refuse to use more RAM chips like everyone else with common sense sane developers are doing.
That's how you know the pricing scheme was designed in under 5min. in Excel and not through careful BOM+margin calculations. "They will pay" - mumbled the sales guy punching in the spreadsheet formula ;)
I paid $99 Australian dollars ($62 USD after conversion) for a KAMRUI N100 mini PC with 16GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD. Was very happy when I scored that deal. The only thing I didn't like about it is that it shipped with Windows and the seller had thrown in a spyware (yay, Freebie) inside the operating system image, but I detected it early and replaced the OS with Linux.
Where did you order that secondhand mini PC? Converting every shady mini PC into Linux machines could save a lot of people from getting different credentials stolen
My two mini pc came with windows. After playing around (without connecting it to internet obviously) I installed linux. Never trust windows or even linux install unless it came from big store and big manufacturer. Just assume it has malware or spyware. Sure my 80-100$ mini PC (with shipping) has legit windows and nothing fishy about it. Sure sure😂 And obviously it works better with linux as windows is horrible for low power PCs. And for the record win 10 will be stopped updating and good luck running even more bloated win 11 with all that adware and spyware with all their hardware restrictions. Linux has their obvious problems, but windows is getting worse and worse. I know it I worked as windows/microsoft product administrator for years from xp, win 7, 8 to win 10 😂
Yeah rasberry pie doesn't make much sense anymore unless you have a project were having a little board that is handy. Those mini n97 and n100 pcs are just much better value for money. I got a little n97 system and reinstalled windows with a install script to get a nice clean version of windows with nothing extra. I actually had to put a browser install on a thumb drive because it didn't even come with browser. Windows is still not a bad operating system with a clean say no to everything install.
@@ahriboy It was from Amazon Australia, the model name is KAMRUI AK1 Plus. It was priced very low for some reason. I just checked the Amazon receipt again and it has an Intel N95 (Alder Lake 12th Gen) with single channel DDR4 16GB memory.
08:40 Jeff, no offense, but this is a baseless tangent. We have retail Steam games with data discs around here, or at least had them until very recently, apparently far longer than USA wanted them. The decompression of those was pretty much as CPU intensive as Steam downloads at the time, for similar reasons - the DVD drives aren't fast, more uncompressed data means more DVDs (and more swaps), and the CPU is presumably not doing anything else when gamer wants a new game, so might as well use it (especially back when they couldn't throttle). And this wasn't specific to Steam games, the installers of older PC games tried their best to do the same thing. So do PlayStation ones since they started installing as a standard, in spite of those dedicated decompression circuits in PS5. Discs have advantages sometimes, but they do nothing to prevent intense emulated installation decompression computing.
Was gonna say this.. yes, Steam is actively decompressing the content. It was the same on physical media but we didn't notice as much because of how slow it was. Heck I can remember way back in the day how with Wolfenstein 3-D and Doom you run an installer that would decompress the content.. it took some time but allowed them to provide way more content than those tiny floppies otherwise could! In a modern context where people are saddled with data caps from unscrupulous ISPs I bet most people would rather deal with the compression than have their data get blown out.
About the steam download speed, most gaming PCs have really slow internet and really fast CPU, so it makes sense to optimize for this. Very few people have fast internet and a slow CPU like you, so it makes total sense to use intense compression for game downloads
@@PuntoHowto I'm not Jeff, ofc, but I really like the Waveshare model: 28411. It works excellently for both POE and allows for an M.2 drive (2230 or 2242). I've been running my drive at PCIe 3 speeds, powered exclusively off POE since I've bought it several months ago without any lick of issues. Pretty much plug and play!
9:00 this is incorrect, a lot of Games, especially Steam ones now run fine on Proton, it's just Games where the Publisher chooses that the Games Anti Cheat to explicitly not work on Linux, don't work
@@uwu_peter My comment wasn’t meant to make a list of what runs and what doesn’t, protondb already has that. Just saying that there is more than just competitive games that don’t run, and VR is not as good as on windows yet. But for some people Linux is good enough for what they play, or they adapt and simply stop playing what doesn’t work.
I'm personally against "just upping all the specs for no reasons" because it makes developers not take power usage into consideration anymore and makes everything less efficient. Not saying that we should code everything into assembly or something, just that a calculator app doesn't need a full gig of RAM just because phones these days can handle it, and it's cheaper to develop with
Yeah, I've noticed that development has become a lot more sloppy in the past couple of years, and it was already headed in that direction. Developers use extra resources as an excuse to be lazy rather than a tool to innovate. I'm sure that there are plenty of programmers who are just as fed up with it as we are.
Having developed software for more than two decades, I have noticed that many developers now have no respect for RAM usage or storage space. Just the other day, a dev was not surprised to see that his simple UI frontend consumed about a gig of memory! Everyone just gets into the bandwagon of creating a web based frontend even for standalone apps. The woke crowd should protest against this attitude to reduce the carbon footprint of everything we do!
Heh hopefully they have enough stock that anyone impulse-buying one would not have an issue!
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Yeah, a design what should be made from Rpi themselves... They did not even bother to turn the aluminium fins on RPi cooler with flow of air, but against it... therefore all cool air from fan goes up the cooler, not through it. Putting a tape on top of fins is the best upgrade for it, besides bying different cooler.
The official active cooler was a cheap 5 dollar, launch-day accessory to get users started straight away. It has a high-pitched whining noise but it keeps the board below throttling temps. The official case fan without lid is inaudibly quiet but doesn't accommodate hats. These inspired the thriving third party accessory makers to come up with better solutions later on, which has been the way since first gen pies
@@JeffGeerling Why don't you put some of those naked Pis into fully-enclosed heat-sink cases already? Reclaim the Pi's solid-state status (as long as you don't need Wi-Fi).
The piece about software bloat is so true. Most modern games these days are made for consoles first and thus are developed for systems that have 12-16gb shared system and vram. There is little to no insentive for the devs to streamline the code to work well with less ram. Contrast that with the way say Satisfactory was developed which was PC first and has had tons of optimisations to work on less powerful hardware.
It's nothing to do with that. Developers bloat games because they use Prebuilt engines that are optimised for 'all' games, not the game the developer is making. Does it work? Yes. Does it work well? Yes. Is it fast? Yes. Does it lower the skill requirements to develop the game, leading to more jobs and better returns for the company? Yes. Is it cheap? Yes (relatively speaking) is it optimal? Only if the developer recompiles the engine to remove the unnecessary features they don't use, which may not be possible for a multitude of reasons. For starters, it may be closed source, they literally cannot change it. It may be outside the scope of their license, hence illegal for them to do so. It may not be cost effective, a working game selling today is far more profitable than a efficiently working game sold 3 years from now. Among other reasons
On the steam download CPU utilization, i think for the vast majority of people the bottleneck is the Internet speed, so compressing it more to reduce the size at the cost of CPU cycles is a reasonable tradeoff. That and bandwidth is expensive so steam has a pretty obvious economic incentive to make the downloads as small as possible
The problem is not inflation. The real problem is that RPi is getting itself out of segment between MCU and Arm/x86 mini PCs, and fighting against well established cost effective solutions. RPi was exceptional for its price/target. now it is no more at the price once it were, also no more at the power once it had.
What kind of work needs 16 gb of RAM, but can still be done on the RPi 5? Genuinely curious EDIT: perhaps I should have said “should be” instead of “can be”
It's useful when you can't afford (or otherwise don't have access to) nvme hat and wanted to reduce SD card wear and/or don't want to be constrained with its transfer rate. Take half of those RAM and mount it as ramdisk. Write to card only when necessary. IIRC Valkey (redis fork) have benchmark on using RPi as kv store, which is another "exotic" use case.
AI/LLMs, web services, compilation of certain things... a lot is CPU or IO bound, but there are some workloads that are memory bound which could make sense running on a Pi (especially if you're energy-constrained, like you only have 5-10W power budget).
The standard view in Steam uses a Chromium backend under the hood to display things. That's also why Steam no longer works on Windows 7 for instance. As much as I like Raspberry Pi however, it's hunger for power from the wall also increased, so I'm almost convinced my N100 mini PC was a good pick up overall, especially since I can comfortably watch Netflix and Prime Video on a TV optimized U.I.
My 8gig Pi5 does all I need it to. It's nice to have the option though. Would have preferred a faster SoC with unified RAM. Maybe next year... Maybe $100 more dollars...?
Speaking of unified memory, it would be cool if we could start seeing high speed unified memory built into new SoCs, acting as a sort of cache for slower removable memory.
0:26 No it doesn't the relationship between price and memory follows the linear relationship f(x) = 5x+40, where x is ram size and f(x) cost in $. E.g. f(2) = 10+40 =50, f(4)= 20+40 = 60, f(8) = 40+40=80 and f(16) = 80+40 = 120.
I bought one. Put it in Argon one box and installed latest Konstagang LineageOS Android TV on it. Rooted with Magisk, added Google services, fan and Argon remote control scripts via ADB, Sideloaded old experimental Microsofts Xbox streaming app, my local TV provider app, national broadcast app and youtube. Add custom launcher (Sideload Launcher 4). Its just perfect to make my old bedroom 32" salvaged (LED backlight burnout) TV smart again without the usual Android TV bloatware and clutter. And it was sooooo much fun doing it. Totally worth the price.
I've been enjoying 16 GB on the Orange Pi 5 boards for a couple years already. It's pretty neat for k8s or desktop Linux where I can run games, or even running virtual machines.
I've been scared off Orange Pi and its competitors because of their reputation for poor Linux support. If that's changed, then that is *very* good to know.
I figure Steam uses very aggressive compression on game downloads since they'll be paying for network traffic. So every percent of extra compression is worth it as long as the decompression workload doesn't annoy the typical user. Also, the vast majority of systems will still be bottlenecked by network speed, rather than decompression capacity. So it's a win-win unless you've got an absolutely anemic processor and very fast internet.
I reached the bottleneck with a 13980HX and 8G internet. Steam can't go even higher than 3Gb/s or 4Gb/s before maxing all the cores of the CPU. The compression is very aggressive indeed.
Great stuff as always. I've got the 8gb version and it's for sure overkill for 95% of pi uses as you said. The only reason I went with the 8gb model was so I can configure it to run as a 2/4/8gb for testing purposes changing up the OS config file. It really helps when I'm producing video guides and I can let people know what amount of RAM is needed for the certain project.
I have been a Pi fan boy since the pi 2. In that time, I have seen how the landscape has changed. The Raspberry Pi has been forced to step up. In reality, they have delivered the goods, in my opinion. Yes, there was a shortage issue for a bit, but some of that was just people complaining about it and not really looking. I was able to get a handful of Pi Zero 2s, and I was late to the party. With the Pi 5, things seem to really be turning a new leaf. It seems the landscape has shifted again. They still hold a place in my heart for the moment. I do plan to acquire a second Pi 5. However, beyond that, I might turn to the mini pc like so many others. There is still something to be said about the community.
There are a lot of Aussies in the comment section here talking about the price. If you factor in the exchange rate and that here in the US we don’t include sales tax in prices (add it to the list of stupid things we do) it’s almost the same. I did the math, for where I live (Chicago) the price of this Pi including tax is 135 USD or $217.94 AUD Not saying it’s not too much, just that you’re not getting ripped off any more or less than us.
Great job on the video Jeff! Thanks for making it. Most of what you say goes right over my head, but I still enjoy your videos. It's clear you really love what you do. I've been thinking of deploying a pi-hole unit on my network, but I'm worried what that might do to my wife's work access when she's working from home. Maybe one day I'll get over it and just try it.
Usually it does not crash, but rather there's an increasingly longer list of tasks that need to be done which makes things even worse. OS is still working, but slowly and more tasks are added than finished, so RAM usage is rather increasing than decreasing. For the same reason OS might crash, because it's possible that some buffers will be filled completely and it will lead to states that weren't really tested. Also keep in mind that there are bugs in every OS and application. For reasons above I keep my old computers to test code I'm making. Using old Core2Duo with mechanical HDD does wonderful thing at triggering every possible bug. Especially in multi-threaded code.
swapping is a sign of too few memory. Finally it might also run out of swap space. Then the OOM killer jumps in to kill random processess to free up memory. When the OOM killer gets to important processes, the system will crash.... So, ensure you have enough memory and/or swap space....
As you say, most people don't use all the RAM on an 8GB version. I'd have thought that anyone who wants to get the best performance out of their Pi5 would already be using an NVMe SSD via PCIe with it, so it's not going to grind to a halt on the incredibly rare occasions when the RAM is full anyway. I think people need to have realistic expectations of what a Pi5 is and what can be expected of it, although I do enjoy watching you push the boundaries. My 8GB Pi5 makes an excellent "daily driver" desktop PC to the point that my main system with a hex-core AMD Ryzen 5 5600X and 32GB of DDR4-3600 RAM never gets powered up nowadays unless I have massive amounts of data to crunch in a hurry.
Steam downloads are also encrypted so your CPU is also decrypting the download while decompressing them at the same time. In Windows 11, I was able to squeeze out another 100MB/s (Megabytes, not megabits) speed by setting all of the Steam related service priorities to High instead of Normal. That maxed out my 19-13900ks, but I hit peaks of ~325MBps where before I was getting ~270MBps peak. I did also have to play around with what CDN I was connected to in the Steam settings. It defaults to St. Louis for me, but if I switch to Dallas, I get higher speeds.
Are we starting to hit that arm powered gaming portable point if Valve wanted to go that route, or do we still have a ways to go before the performance is there?
Qualcomm already has some Arm chips that would be around par with the Steam Deck as it currently stands, even with something like box86/box64 as a translation layer... However, there's still a lot to make up running x86 code on Arm, and there's nothing like Apple's M-series silicon hardware support for x86 translation baked into other Arm chips (at least not to the extent Apple's done). So the tradeoff for energy savings might be a wash until more games are compiled for arm64.
THe main issue on ARM is that the companies behind it still treat it as embedded trash so they drop a SDK with a full kernel/firmware hacked to work on their hardware and provide only limited support. Qualcomm for example has been fumbling hard their ARM support for WIndows for the last decade. It works great as a browser/office machine but good luck with graphics drivers for games when there is no debugger or documentation provided to game developers
Another issue I have with arm is software support. The fact that you need a very specific device tree and very specific support for the exact hardware configuration being run makes it way harder to get a non-factory OS running. Of course it's still possible, but it's only really done on more popular boards. Manufacturers seem not only dead-set on keeping it this way, but some even go out of their way to resist attempts to install third party OSs. Meanwhile on x86, even if it won't work 100% well, due to everything being standardized, I can install just about whatever I want on decade old hardware or older, or also brand new hardware on day one. And while arm is more power efficient, it's only slightly so... And AMD's upcoming Strix Halo claims to close the gap. (Whether it does or not, we'll see.) I see the move to arm as just making planned obsolescence even worse... I hope that either arm holdings provide a solution (they won't), or Intel and/or AMD can keep a foothold.
Nvidia has apparently hinted at making their own desktop CPUs. Owing to the unique requirements of the PC Gaming library (a metric ton of legacy code that will probably never be updated, and both performance and latency sensitive), a translation layer that preserves the library to the standard expected is likely to be a Herculean task. Among all the tech giants I can think of, Nvidia (between their hardware and software expertise) is probably in the best position to decouple the PC Gaming library from x86 if they so choose. Not to discount AMD necessarily, though they don’t seem to have much experience with ARM, let alone designing a custom ARM chip. Their experience with x86 may nonetheless prove advantageous when developing a translation layer though.
@@Lauren_C What I mean by software support isn't running x86 code. As I explained beyond the first sentence, I'm concerned about the hardware becoming unusable within years of its manufacture because the OEM doesn't provide system updates. Arm systems require very specific configurations in order to have an actually usable, bootable operating system. Everything on the X86 platform is standardized, which means you can run just about anything you want on even two decade old hardware. (Whether it runs well is another story, but at least it'll update for more than two years.) TL;DR Arm-based systems have a history of planned obsolescence. They're not really designed to last in the same way that x86 machines are. On an x86 system, you can basically put whatever operating system you want on whatever machine you want, and it will at least attempt to run. On an arm system, if your kernel does not have a compatible device tree that matches the exact hardware configuration, even if every single piece of hardware on the system is compatible with that kernel, it will not be able to boot.
They ought to roll out the RAM size silkscreen on Pi 4 models too. Annoying to have to look up the RAM chip code to know what size Pi I am working with.
I visited family for a month and took my 4gb pi4 with me as a PC to work on projects when I had down time. I would have loved to have more chrome/firefox tabs open.
As it happens, I need to use the RPi Global Shutter camera to record videos of laser imagery. I'm controlling the camera from my laser controller via VNC. Which is why I believe that my recordings are stalling every few seconds So, I'm thinking of upgrading to RPi 5, with the same 1TB SSD for storing the video content. Considering what I've already spent on laser gear, $120 is insignificant, especially as opposed to alternative global shutter cameras. No brainer. You betcha, I'd pay $120 for the 16MB RPi 5 (but would prefer a CM5 w/NVME carrier). 🤔I think I need to shop around, before placing that order. Thanks Jeff!
The jump in "RAM" prices on the Mac Mini makes more sense when you realise that going from 32 GB to 48 GB RAM includes $400 for more CPU and GPU cores (which you can also do while staying at 24 GB RAM). Also, while the Mac doesn't run Linux directly, I use arm64 Linux in docker on mine alllll the time and it runs really great. I've been getting 16 GB on my SBCs for a while now because something as simple as a GCC or LLVM build runs out in 8 GB. I've got 16 GB RAM on all of my HiFive Unmatched (along with PCIe, it's biggest advantage over the VisionFive 2), Lichee Pi 3A (8x SpacemiT X60), Lichee Pi 4A (4x C910), and Milk-V Megrez (4x P550, hopefully shipping before Chinese NY later this month)
I love the compactness, energy efficiency and support of RPis and still have 3 in operation, but used mini PCs (HP, Lenovo and Dell) are readily available for less and usually come with SSD storage (and purchasing used unit contributes to less waste). Anyhow, minis are larger than a Pi but don't really use that much electricity, especially for those with T processors.
So, I spotted Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order (at least the main menu), Forza Horizon 4, Portal 2 and Ultimate Battle Simulator running on the the Pi5? (with box86/box64 I assume). UBS looked pretty smooth.
Yeah 25-30 fps in UBS 2, Forza was a choppy but maybe playable 20 fps, and Jedi Fallen Order would launch... sometimes. But it kept locking up. Should be playable but I may have run into some weird bug.
@@ptitSeb123 Indeed, and Rockstar's dumb launcher won't even complete launching under box86/box64 (maybe even under Proton?). Not sure why they all need fancy launchers. I just want to launch the game!!!
Well, apart from being storefronts, they're also often used as a part of the game's DRM scheme. Because adding a simple login screen inside of a game itself (like good ol' Starcraft 2 does) is way too complicated for most publishers...
At the moment, I don't think I will. I was lucky enough to get four 8gb-Pi 5s on Amazon last November for $60 each (they screwed the price on the listing and took them off hours after I had already ordered them). Each came with heatsinks, a metal case, and thermal pads. I used one to build my 16tb NAS running OMV and Homeassistant on docker through OMV thanks to Jeff's review on the Radxa penta SATA Hat!
Its a publicly traded company. If they make to many moves that look unprofitable, it sets them up for a hostile take over from shareholders to replace the CEO.
The Steam downloads are trying to find a balance between cpu-usage and bandwith usage. So it usually tries to increase compression to save on bandwith until the CPU is fully saturated. This could be a benefit for players with slow connections but it is also a benefit for companies like Steam, since they have to pay for all that traffic on their CDNs.
What does “Increase compression” mean? The game data is already compressed on Steam’s download CDN. All Steam clients do is decompress and write to disk
@johnsimon8457 some would instead store it on the CDN uncompressed or barely compressed so that the local clients do less work, but get screwed if they have slower connections - in comparison to that scenario the initial compression level is increased
I can make use of that. I've been shopping for 32GB ARM options (such as Radxa), would be happy to have a 32GB RPi5, but can make do with 16GB for now. The kind of software I develop is RAM intensive so more RAM means processing larger data sets with less complication. I was surprised Jeff didn't have a Linux kernel compilation benchmark 8GB vs 16GB, that's the sort of real-world metric that would help me make a decision. The other aspect of Pi5 is that it's cheaper than Nvidia Jetson, but useful for ARM compute performance tuning. But I do agree with the gist of Jeffs video, 16GB isn't going to be the most popular choice, it's more than necessary for a lot of use cases. But for me, the extra memory is a game changer. Build, debug and test on RPi5 without cross-compilation complications - nice! It's the perf per watt at reasonable scale sweet spot now perhaps. (Doing CPU compute without corded power)
Such an unnecessary upgrade. The Radxa X4 with an Intel N100 and 16GB RAM and no storage is also $120 MSRP. Same form factor, but has much better I/O and much, much faster CPU.
X4 is a great option-though with the thermal limits required to get N100 on an SBC-size board like the X4, it's only marginally faster (while being less efficient) than the Pi 5 (and much less so than RK3588!). Compatibility and IO are the two main benefits on that board.
@@JeffGeerling I agree. However, the N100 can do much more than the Pi 5, such as transcoding for Plex for example. And can run x86 based OS such as Unraid and TrueNAS
I'll be buying one, with all the community and available accessories it does what I want. I've been running a Pi3b 24/7 since it was released, and it's still stable, and reboots after power interruptions. My 8gig Pi does what I need.
I have a k8s cluster with pi5, and I struggled a lot with the memory limitations. I will extend my cluster with the new 16G models, and for hardware consistency and simplicity, a pi is a much better option than a minipc, even if they are cheaper.
For home assistant core, even 512 MB on the zero 2w is sufficient. I set something like this up for family. But if you want to run more on the pi, like LLM answers etc, 16 GB would come useful.
I think the draw to the Pi isn't so much the cost any more, it's the power efficiency. Running a full-fat dedicated server on double-digit wattages is really helpful for those entry-level low-complexity applications.
I'm done with raspberry pi as a concept. I have a pi3b+ in a drawer because it was too slow so I replaced it with 4b in the role of a home linux server, and I had to have storage on a USB SSD (which for some reason auto-unmounted every now and then so I had to reboot it daily), and recently the sd card wore out and switched to RO mode, so I gave up, put this one in a drawer as well, and got a used HP mini pc from ebay to use as a home server and that one just works. And that HP mini pc cost me about as much as a pi4 with all the stuff that's needed to make it work. And it has two NVMe slots. And expandable RAM. Raspberry pi sounded like a great idea, but turned out to be a dud.
There is one specific model of USB-to-SATA adapter made by StarTech that is recommended for the Pi4. I've had it running continuously for almost 4 years with no issues. A different adapter gave me similar problems to what you describe, where the drive would become unresponsive at random. Given how big of an issue it is to get reliable storage for a Pi, it just makes me mad they still haven't properly addressed this.
I took a 4 year break from them and just bought a 5. I was disappointed at them saying it's "4k" but requires hidden settings to enable and then having a bunch of tearing and stuttering if you actually USE it in 4K. I'm sure an 8088 chip from 1980 could toggle the pins of an 8K display controller to make the monitor say it's outputting 8k, but you wouldn't say that an 8088 "runs in 8k". It has to be usable.
I've never really understood why people use Raspberry Pis for things a mini-pc can do. Once you get a decent case and fan and power supply and whatnot you're not far off from the price of a mini-pc anyway, just with less compatibility and speed. There's the novelty of running a non-Intel type chip, but unless you're coding in assembly there's not that much difference anyway. The big thing a Pi gives you is the GPIO. I love being able to write up a quick program to interface with electronics. It's great for simulating equipment too - I broke our Rotork valve actuator in the lab at work, but I can write a program that pretends to be one and even hook up switches, buttons, lights, and an LCD panel to allow someone to interact with it.
@@jeffspaulding9834 I built my current setup with a 2GB Pi 4 in 2021. It runs Home Assistant along with a bunch of other services. The benefits over a mini PC were clear: 1. Cost. All in I paid ~70€. That includes a nice aluminium case for passive cooling. Reusing an old SSD saved some money. Really cheap mini PCs are a relatively recent thing. It used to be all much more expensive NUCs and thin clients. 2. Power. My Pi 4 idles at 3W. Mini PCs can easily draw 10W. That means it costs 20€ extra per year to run a mini PC here. 3. Heat. I stuffed mine into an unvented utility cupboard next to the router. Low power draw plus no vents to clog up or fan to break means this will work in perpetuity, without maintenance. 4. Space. Mini PCs have caught up, but a Pi is still among the smallest PCs you can get. Even though it's gotten more considerably expensive since, I still prefer a Pi 4 over any mini PC. I simply don't need the extra performance. That also rules out the Pi 5 with its extra complications.
I think it's plausible that it is. In an apple product, the cost of RAM as a proportion of the production cost is small. If the 8GB is half the cost of the pi, doubling it will increase the cost by 50% (even if 16GB chips are only double the price if 8GB)
This "I'll give you five reasons, and you might enjoy the fifth one, it's certainly the most fun" clickbait line brought me back to 2010's. Love your videos by the way.
Definitely buying one. I extensively use my Pi 5 for multitasking- multiple programs, several browser windows, streaming video etc., and i do run out of memory sometimes despite the 8GB model. Now if only theyd listen to my pleas and make a dedicated Pi 5 graphics card...
Greetings. In case anyone doesn't know, the quickest way to check the memory size of an rpi 5 is to boot it without microsd or usb. The screen will display information without having to disassemble anything.
I remember when we could fit most applications on a 1.44 MB floppy disk and now you need to download 100 GB just to play a game. While much of it can be attributed to more complex coding there is still a lot of redundant, unused, and unnecessary code left behind by lazy programmers. Then there are the excessive amounts of bloat added for no good reason. And then finally there is all the they truly unnecessary code like the flight sim in Windows Excel 97 - One of the earliest examples. Not to forget of course the unrealistic expectations of users and the even more unrealistic scenarios tested by TH-camrs. Nobody needs to have 20 or 30 Chrome tabs open well running a 4K game and crunching a million entry database at the same time. As for the Pi.. It is an SBC meant for education, development, and experimentation I not to be a replacement for a desktop computer or a server even if it can perform some of those tasks.
The point that Pi became too expensive and you can by mini pc with cooling, all cables , more slots etc for less money. Minus pins. Also there are rasberyPi similar brands Single Board Computers like rock or whatever that are cheaper.
about the code bloat part, there is no complex code, just bad design in general, most apps in the past can be reused today with little to no lost, even benefit, about games that is 100Gb more, they just overbloat the game with models amd cutscreen, the code part maybe less than 1GB. Welp, storage and Ram are less of an issue nowaday due to technology advancement, but that also lead to bad design alot, they alway keep the mindset just make a mess until cant make a mess anymore, then cleanup, but the cleanup part hardly come by. That is why when you have 1.44 Mb disk storage, you have to cleanup and make your apps better, but when you have 512Gb more, "let it be, I still have disk space left".
The 16 GB model maybe has its use cases, but even I who loves having an RPi 4 as a single point of failure (if it crashes, my entire network no longer functions) struggles with filling up that RAM. Usually it's at 0.5 GB due to Pi-Hole and MariaDB, maybe it gets bigger when compiling programs, but I feel like this system could also run with 2 GB. I'm much more interested in seeing upgrades to the Zero lineup, especially a Zero with more RAM and Ethernet built-in. A PoE HAT there would be so cool too!
At that price, just get a N100 mini PC. I have several and they outperform the pi5. They should've stayed in the 20-40 bucks range IMHO. At this rate only huge rpi fans will buy their products.
I assume this means that a 16GB CM5 will be shortly following this release. I'm running a 4GB CM4 on my HA Yellow, and wondering if I should bump up to the 8GB/16GB CM5 for it as I have a lot of devices in my home.
Honestly HA is pretty light on RAM if you don't install a bunch of plugins... though you can add on a lot on top if you want! Be sure to monitor memory usage in the system dashboard.
Great.. I got the desktop kit for the 8gb model for Christmas and now they have a 16gb one now!? The inner “I-want-the-best-one” of me or whatever it is is going off (what disorder is that if it is one)
I would never purchase a RPi ever again after general retail customers were treated like pissants during the pandemic by the company. In reality, they don't need my money, but it's still MY money which I will save for anyone who can come up with a viable competitive product.
I'll probably pick up one of for my Home Assistant Yellow (in compute module form factor) I wanna get so I can consolidate everything to do with Homeassistant onto one PI. It'll probably not touch all the RAM all the time so speed is probably okay, but that way everything can just run in the background and be ready when I need it.
An advantage for the RPi over a mini PC is for physical computing, such as robotics, especially if involving machine learning, vision and other sensor processing, I expect 16GB will be a great bonus for those applications. Looking forwards to a 16GB CM5.
why is it with other computer manufacturers newer models are faster and cheaper than older ones (or at least the same price), but not with Raspberry Pi?
Interesting for sure, but I think you're right about the price and N100 mini PCs at least for desktop usage. As always thankd for the honest and helpful review.
I was very very glad to get the biggest RAM capacity on my Pi 4's - enough to actually use it as a full computer without issues, running multiple VM, FreeCAD, larger browser sessions, web services etc and often more than one of them at once. Still broke into swap from time to time, but when you have compute performance to pretend to be a 'real' computer while experimenting and testing things it is very handy to have enough RAM to keep up. If i was embedding a CM or Pi in something long term a 2GB or even an older smaller model might be the choice I'd pick, assuming something more microcontroller like a Pico isn't a better choice, but for the Pi on my desk more RAM is good.
i feel like the rpi pico deliver much better on cheap computing power for tinkerers compared to the full SBC's, especially when you consider the pico2 has a RISC-V core and can get wifi to handle tcp clients. For projects and self learning microcontrollers can teach you lots of things that you might learn on a full rpi board for a fraction of the cost, and with a better grasp on low level concepts too!
A little off the pi 5 topic but did you mention that linux can’t run on a mac mini? I thought one could run Ubuntu in a virtual environment with Parallels?
I just wonder what the extra ram would do for emulation. If it makes more games playable and allows for newer games to be played then it might be worth the extra money.
From what I understand, It **should** allow the Pi to push in to PS4 Pro, XBone era emulation gaming with almost no hangups, as well as make more Arcade ports run better. Which is probably the last era of home console gaming that matters, since consoles become increasingly PCs with a proprietary OS, their own bloat issues, and frequent server checks for the purposes of things like DRM. It might take some more work from emulation devs and You will probably still need to hook up an old 100$ video card to attain this, but on paper, it should be perfect for 40 years worth of gaming contained on one little, low-power machine.
@@Samael1113 Consider this: Forza Horizon 4, a title thats on Xbox One, that hes running a native PC version, with plugged in eGPU, is barely chugging as it is. And emulating x86 on ARM will be much more efficient than trying to emulate whole damn console. So, no.
@@Tepiloxtl Yes. Consoles are weaker typically hardware, but standardized, so get a ton more optimization put in to them. PC Titles, especially triple AAA titles that are primarily for consoles are rarely optimized for all the modularity in hardware. In fact, they are frequently direct ports that are barely tweaked for the change in OS. The number of perfectly working console titles which are barely functional titles that only become satisfying to play on PCs - thanks to the mod community - out there is staggering. Comparing Windows Forza to emulated Console Forza may not be a fair comparison. And the R Pi 4 had so much work put in to it it was already capable of light emulation of Wii U and non-pro versions of PS4 and XBox titles. There may still be a few outliers that were optimized on console perfectly and have all the bells and whistles running, but the number of titles doing that would probably be counted on your hands. The Pi 5 with 16gb of RAM and a decent eGPU with only 4gb of RAM is miles beyond what a PS4 Pro can do. All that is really needed is a community to do the Dev work to make it happen. And the Pi 5 being able to use an eGPU is barely more than a year old, with drivers making it viable taking up most of that available dev time. Again, on paper, it is more than viable. And the chances are good we'll see it happen within another year. Maybe 2.
@@Tepiloxtl Consider that Consoles are designed for economy and standardized builds. So have specs that are frequently a generation behind a solid mid-range PC. While PCs have a number of modular differences and drivers of varying ages. This allows Devs to optimize games for these consoles with ease. Especially if console is their biggest market. Unless there is some coding wall with x86 emulation that I am unaware of (which I figure seems unlikely considering how I frequently hear about how far it has come), the Pi 5 should be able to pull it off easily. It just requires the Dev time, which has been more focusing on getting eGPUs to work properly, until recently - considering that it is a feature barely more than a year old on Pi hardware. IIRC the Pi 4 was already able to emulate select Wii U, Switch, PS4 and XBone titles, with varying amounts of success. And the Pi 5 without the GPU is almost 2x as powerful as a Pi 4 (and 3-4x as powerful as a PS4 Pro, again IIRC). Also consider that while Console games are optimized very well, PC titles that have a console version are frequently a mess requiring a dedicated mod community to make playable. PC ports over the last 10 years are frequently barely more than a proverbial (sometimes literal) ctrl-c ctrl-v, with a couple lines of code to make it function on the new OS. So comparing an emulated Console game and PC version of that game likely is not fair. Currently this is all theorycraft, which is why I said "on paper" earlier, but the PS4 Pro and XBone were not that powerful by even the standards of their day, I can't imagine their operating architecture is that difficult to emulate either (as opposed to something like the Saturn). So, I wouldn't be surprised if over the next year, maybe two, we see the Retro Pi 5 builds include an increasing library of PS4 Pro, XBone, Wii, Wii U and maybe even Switch titles. Not to mention some of the larger arcade ports having their issues smoothed out. I will cede that there may be a few titles that are perfectly optimized for the Pro version hardwares and are problematic for proper emulation, but I imagine the number of titles like that could be counted on both hands. But ultimately, yes.
Raspberry Pi 5 w/ 16Gb, limited quantity here in Australia and its costing $217.50 for a single unit (board only) ... 2Gb @ $83, 4Gb @ $101.07 and 8Gb @ $134.75
I'd rather want a Raspberry Pi Zero 3W with 4GB of RAM or at least 2GB. It's long due now.
Heck I'd settle for 1GB on a Zero! lol
Yeah running a full desktop on 512MB is pushing it.
Edit: I forgot about the zero 2w RAM size.
Crazy that even the Pi 3 only has 1 GB RAM. RISC-V boards with similar speed CPU cores e.g. the BPI-F3 or Milk-V Jupiter or Lichee Pi 3A can have up to 16 GB RAM and 4 GB is considered small! A Pi Zero 2 with 4 GB RAM would be amazing.
@@joeltyler3427 eh well pentium 4 machines had that and you can still browse the modern web on a pentium 4 so
(but on a serious note yea 512 mb sucks)
I'd say you have the radxa zero 2 (if its available in your area) for that.
Greetings Jeff! :) Fantastic presentation.
Greetinnnnnnnnnnnnggs.........Jeff. Faaaannn....tasic presentation.
Thank you!
@@warricksmythevideo From Explaining Computers .... dot com!
Guys - we (And I think I am speaking for many of your fans) would love to see a colab between you two! Just on any project or a topic!
omg EC!
This is .... sooo ex-citing.
I use Raspberry Pi for two things - PiAware & free Mathematica. For anything else I'll be moving to x86 minipcs, the Pi value proposition is not what it was 5 years ago.
They still win out in power efficiency, which may or may not matter to some.
The Pi Zero 2 is still very cheap as well.
They don't really.
The old cheap pi's are still available and still work just fine you don't have to buy this one. If you were using a PI as a PC you were always doing it wrong.
@@-aexc- Wolfram did a special deal with the Raspberry Pi foundation to make Mathematica (Wolfram's very powerful computer algebra system and programming environment) available on Pi on for free. The home edition of Mathematica is otherwise normally hundreds of dollars.
@@pseudodistant n100 and lower ryzens based systems can run laps around rPI while consuming extra watt or two.
Where did my 20€ mini tinkering pc go :'c
Big business money printer go BRRRR. Who cares about hobbyists anymore
End stage capitalism bro
RPi needs to feed shareholders now
Hardware isn't getting cheaper for anyone
It never existed
I like that the conversation around developers adding bloat on top of bloat every generation is happening. Hopefully more industry leaders and influencers talk about it.
Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case... leaders are often the ones driving the bloat :(
@@JeffGeerling Truth! But how you pointed out, is not something people did in past, at all! And I see that as a tide to turn. And an influencer like you talking about it allows more leads to stick out their neck and talk about it too.
It is a circle, bloatware means more memory and a faster cpu, more hardware sales.
@@very-ann The tide will turn if large enough amount of customers would stop using bloated software. But sometimes there are no alternatives that aren't bloated. And if we talking about corporate purchases, than performance means basically nothing, tons of companies pay for MS Teams when Slack performs a lot better (while still being very slow considering power of modern hardware).
@@ninele7 I dont think the customer is capable or even needed to understand these things. I am pointing more towards industry tech leaders*. A damage that someone has done by saying "move fast break things" needs to be undone by another by saying "learn proper, make it perfect".
"Llama increased from 1.2 to 1.3" LMAO. I am sold. Thanks Jeff!
Haha
Why does it feel RPi have left their "lets get a cheap computer out to encourage kids to program" ethos. I mean it is $50 for the board, plus PSU, HDMI cable(s), storage.
Honestly not worth it anymore.
It feels that way because it largely has. Them prioritizing large businesses during the COVID shortages is undeniably that (and before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I am not criticizing* that choice but it is objectively an example of that)
I think the lower ram models are still good at that, we have to consider that $35 in 2012 is >$50 now, but I would personally like to see them pay more attention to the 0 series for that reason
*I absolutely hate it but I recognize that it was probably the better business choice
At this point its better to buy older computers on sale from bulk replacement from businesses and schools
The documentation still makes RPi the best platform to get kids to program (assuming there is value in that now that we have LLMs that can code better than most).
Inflation and the state of the economy are still a thing and you can buy older pi4 if you want to save a few bucks.
The trouble is...none of these use cases are better on a Pi than on an old i5 NUC. The only advantage that the Pi has is the accessible pins, but that's not really of any use to somebody trying to train AI models etc. Hell, even running it as a NAS, the network and CPU performance are far more of a bottleneck than the RAM capacity.
It being arm could also be an advantage over x86 maybe as like a portable homelab for vanlifers?
Yeah and Nvidias cheap af new Jetson Orin nano super whams this point in like a double tap dead kill shot. Then when I realize that the Orin nano became more performance than the best flagship of the first gen, for less money than the first orin nano and even less than some of the jetson nano with carrier board. They achieved this with a software upgrade. If this is true and it is I actually have the funny honor of buying Amazon’s literally last one for the Nvidia 249$ price.
Some shill for pi was talking about how he would choose the pi with the hailo 8L m.2 for 26 tops for 200+ (so 100/100 for the raspberry pi and the hat, but not counting all the other things you need. Versus the Orin nano 8GB super that has ddr5 ram, 40 GPIO pins, full size display port, power and usb c, usb 3.2s (I believe, could be 3.1 but I don’t care because all serious peripherals use the C or we can get around it with the pins) built in heat sink and fan and has an actual GPU from Nvidia. Also, just…. Take the hailo m.2 and put it in the m.2 slot on the hailo. Then you can run raspberry pi OS on the thing and it’s literally the same product they were saying beats the Orin. And you could add another one. If you rely only on a SD card for the OS. But I don’t recommend that. Unless, you lose the WiFi card for a usb wifi, or boot live off of a NVMe usb, and then you can use 3 coral TPU or 3 hailo natively you just need an adapter for the mini PCIe or use the TPU/coral that uses that natively
Or…. What I’m gonna do. Is what he did. EGPU, but you can occulink it right into the m.2 for full m.2 access the same as a desktop. My real curiosity is if they can somehow get some PCIe bufrucation (not sure yet if that’s even on the radar or already there) then could one somehow custom pcb a way to create a full x8 or more pcie by merging two of the occulink ribbons into a egpu dock? I would gladly and for my main motherboard I would do this too
I would love to recover as many PCIe lanes as possible and give up EVERYRHIBG else. CPU slot ram slot bios and chipset, power, and then maybe Ethernet NIC on the main board, and just about as many USB C as Apple is using right now with power draw, and a usb A for compatibility sake. And that’s it
Everything else every single ounce of PCIe squeezed in the board. What doesn’t fit in form factor can be m.2 slots on the back of the board.
The back of the board and the form factor m.2 is really such a huge real estate addition for any motherboard and Nvidia really out that to use. It’s so obvious and yet there the first I’ve seen to out all the m.2 and the WiFi on the back. Why didn’t pi do that what’s with the hat and ribbon. The hat space is for all the geeky maker stuff I think it’s egregious that basic functionality requires a hat.
Nvidias board has the GPIO and it’s darn hard to even think of a hat to use because everything is already there. It really is an AI first dev kit, but it just makes me laugh when you realize like the competitions entire performance is not a pi’s native feature. Whether coral or hailo or what have you. You can run it full blast on the jetson because it’s a true and proper NVMe drive full length, smaller (fine for all these guys) and the mini PCIe
Now I know I said the back of the board is awesome but I do wish the Zima style side PCIe was used but then upon reflection. This makes sense as well
Even tho it’s ai first, the back of the board and the top doesn’t really limit the final product form but having a add on card coming off the side only works for Zima because Zima is meant to be a server and tinkering almost hor swap for case use
Sure it would be nice to have a x4 on the side but what do Zima users use that for anyway? To add things the Orin already has, such as 2 m.2 lanes haha
One thing for sure all SBC needs to do. Is get there native Ethernet fixed. Gigabit is bare minimum fine but like we’re seeing mini pcs and cheap routers with fiber optic so why not. It’s like fiber optic was made for the IoT world. Or at least do a 5 gb Ethernet or 2.5 2.5 converged
I don’t know what the reason for not doing that is… perhaps WiFi 7 will make the Ethernet situation not as dire
But with there too can bring power along with it. Hmm
Gonna find out if my nvidia orin can just slide out and slide into another carrier board or what I have to do to make my own.
Power efficiency
@@JohanNewazJohn If you're trying to rum LLMs, then the Jetson Orin is a horrible value compared to this. 8GB RAM for $250 is half the RAM for twice the price. The processor is obviously slower here, but if you're just trying to run the largest model possible at modest speeds, this is by far the better way to go.
@@AndyMcBlanethat’s their only advantage
For the Steam CPU usage it's not only decompression, it's also decryption. This is CPU intensive for any CPU, even if there's instruction support for AES-NI etc.
Well AES-NI does do quite heavy lifting and seems to drop the CPU usage by around like 5-10x or so in web server tests, but ARMs Instructions for that kind of acceleration probably work differently and I'm not sure if they'd scale the same, if the PI even has such instructions, I believe it's not ARM9 or 10, but still ARM8 I think? Not sure though.
While decryption does use the CPU, I would hardly call it CPU heavy. Your CPU can encrypt and decrypt probably a hundred times faster than steam can get you a game file
@45545videos But only thanks to AES-NI, crypto is quite a bit of math.
Maybe they should kill their DRM, then they only need to bother with the TLS crypto stuff like most other websites
120$ without proper heatsink, powersupply, case, and with crappy usb storage... I moved away from Pi's for all my home automation, energy monitoring/management,... stuff. Especially the usb storage gave me stability issues and it was too "fiddly" for me. Now I run unraid on a mini PC with 6 sata disks as NAS and 'non critical' containers. And a rock5b board (16Gb ram) with 1TB nvme storage for everything home automation related, running a dozen or so containers. It's been rock stable this far, but if the latter would break down, I will replace it with a mini pc as well and move away from ARM SBCs. For anything that requires gpio's, I tend to try to use something from the ESP32-family microcontrollers.
You forgot to mention HDMI dongles, USB extensions (ports are too close), RTC battery, NVMe adapter, and the wimpy CPU & GPU.
Exactly. I actually have a hard time finding useful applications for the Pi, given the price. Most of the electronics projects I see with a Pi could easily be done with an ESP32 (even an underpowered ESP8266), and for anything that needs more power, Proxmox on a 6th Gen+ Intel box gives way better flexibility, reliability, and value/performance per dollar. For stuff like Home Assistant, I'm glad I went straight to a Proxmox VM instead of a PI due to the growing CPU/memory demands that would choke a Pi.
A second hand notebook with specs that overpower a Pi can be bough for much less, are plentiful and you may get them locally. Sometimes they can be acquired for peanuts if you just need a working motherboard (like the Pi) without the rest of the notebook paraphernalia (screen, battery, keyboard, etc.). Just find one that has those broken/damaged parts but otherwise has a working motherboard. And x86/x64 architecture is decades better documented as a platform than the Pi. Add to that, the fact that you are helping the environment by recycling e-waste. It is a no brainer, the Pi has no competitive future for the home user if they don't change their ridiculous pricing strategy.
Yeah booting from USB is a nightmare from the Pi. I only use mine for Pi Hole and some dumb kodi stuff.
The equation on the graph at 0:27 took me a minute to understand. I was trying to plug in 32 GB to see what a hypothetical Pi with that much ram would cost, only to get an absurd value over $7000. The equation seems to be treating 2 GB as x=1, 4 GB as x=2, 8 GB as x=3, and 16 GB as x=4. If I follow the pattern and use 32 GB as x=5, it comes out to $172.50 instead. However, that got me wondering what a normal linear fit using the actual GB values would look like, and it turns out that y=5x+40 exactly (r squared = 1). In that case, a 32 GB Pi would come out to 5*32+40 = $200.
Damn, get this guy a degree
@@TheAlexander775dude I am in 19 th grade it’s not that hard
@@nikestream5013 19th grade? Praying that you graduate soon!
2GB model - 40 + 10$ per RAM chip, 4GB = 40 + 20 $ for RAM, 8GB 40+40 , 16GB = 40+80$, so 32GB would be 40 +160 , hence 200 dollars... but i doubt there will be any 32GB single chip RAM IC module, not before Pi 6. And Rpi foundation will refuse to use more RAM chips like everyone else with common sense sane developers are doing.
That's how you know the pricing scheme was designed in under 5min. in Excel and not through careful BOM+margin calculations. "They will pay" - mumbled the sales guy punching in the spreadsheet formula ;)
I paid $99 Australian dollars ($62 USD after conversion) for a KAMRUI N100 mini PC with 16GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD. Was very happy when I scored that deal. The only thing I didn't like about it is that it shipped with Windows and the seller had thrown in a spyware (yay, Freebie) inside the operating system image, but I detected it early and replaced the OS with Linux.
Where did you order that secondhand mini PC? Converting every shady mini PC into Linux machines could save a lot of people from getting different credentials stolen
My two mini pc came with windows. After playing around (without connecting it to internet obviously) I installed linux.
Never trust windows or even linux install unless it came from big store and big manufacturer.
Just assume it has malware or spyware.
Sure my 80-100$ mini PC (with shipping) has legit windows and nothing fishy about it. Sure sure😂
And obviously it works better with linux as windows is horrible for low power PCs.
And for the record win 10 will be stopped updating and good luck running even more bloated win 11 with all that adware and spyware with all their hardware restrictions.
Linux has their obvious problems, but windows is getting worse and worse.
I know it I worked as windows/microsoft product administrator for years from xp, win 7, 8 to win 10 😂
Yeah rasberry pie doesn't make much sense anymore unless you have a project were having a little board that is handy. Those mini n97 and n100 pcs are just much better value for money. I got a little n97 system and reinstalled windows with a install script to get a nice clean version of windows with nothing extra. I actually had to put a browser install on a thumb drive because it didn't even come with browser. Windows is still not a bad operating system with a clean say no to everything install.
@@ahriboy It was from Amazon Australia, the model name is KAMRUI AK1 Plus. It was priced very low for some reason. I just checked the Amazon receipt again and it has an Intel N95 (Alder Lake 12th Gen) with single channel DDR4 16GB memory.
Wow you were lucky, I just Googled it and $219 was what I saw.
08:40 Jeff, no offense, but this is a baseless tangent. We have retail Steam games with data discs around here, or at least had them until very recently, apparently far longer than USA wanted them. The decompression of those was pretty much as CPU intensive as Steam downloads at the time, for similar reasons - the DVD drives aren't fast, more uncompressed data means more DVDs (and more swaps), and the CPU is presumably not doing anything else when gamer wants a new game, so might as well use it (especially back when they couldn't throttle). And this wasn't specific to Steam games, the installers of older PC games tried their best to do the same thing. So do PlayStation ones since they started installing as a standard, in spite of those dedicated decompression circuits in PS5. Discs have advantages sometimes, but they do nothing to prevent intense emulated installation decompression computing.
Was gonna say this.. yes, Steam is actively decompressing the content. It was the same on physical media but we didn't notice as much because of how slow it was. Heck I can remember way back in the day how with Wolfenstein 3-D and Doom you run an installer that would decompress the content.. it took some time but allowed them to provide way more content than those tiny floppies otherwise could! In a modern context where people are saddled with data caps from unscrupulous ISPs I bet most people would rather deal with the compression than have their data get blown out.
About the steam download speed, most gaming PCs have really slow internet and really fast CPU, so it makes sense to optimize for this. Very few people have fast internet and a slow CPU like you, so it makes total sense to use intense compression for game downloads
I don’t need a 16Gb Pi but it would be nice if Raspberry Pi would give us who use them for everything, a POE hat for the Pi 5
Yeah; for now I'm just buying up 3rd party options, because that's all that's available!
I can highly recommend the Pineboards PoE+ HAT … Jeff did a review recently and he did too.
@@JeffGeerling which one have you found to be the best ?
@@PuntoHowto I'm not Jeff, ofc, but I really like the Waveshare model: 28411. It works excellently for both POE and allows for an M.2 drive (2230 or 2242). I've been running my drive at PCIe 3 speeds, powered exclusively off POE since I've bought it several months ago without any lick of issues. Pretty much plug and play!
Gb is Gigabit. We are talking about Gigabytes, which are appreviated with GB (or even better, GiB).
9:27 I keep watching to see who he will be next time.
This one belongs in the Dad-A-Base.
@garretthaney9134 Did I tell you what happened when I was the captain of a ship carrying red paint?
@@jmr No, what?
@JesseGudgeon2007 A ship carrying blue paint crashed into us. We were all marooned!
@@jmr 🤣 another one for the dad-a-base
9:00 this is incorrect, a lot of Games, especially Steam ones now run fine on Proton, it's just Games where the Publisher chooses that the Games Anti Cheat to explicitly not work on Linux, don't work
Those games are limited to competitive esports titles and of course Rockstar games.
@@Bob_Smith19 Not quite. A lot of regular games, usually live service and not necessarily competitive, do not run fine or at all. Not to mention VR.
@SToad Live Service Games like Helldivers 2 run just fine, VR depends on the Headset but usually Cable bound + SteamVR works fine too
@@SToad VR definitely works on Linux LMAO
@@uwu_peter My comment wasn’t meant to make a list of what runs and what doesn’t, protondb already has that. Just saying that there is more than just competitive games that don’t run, and VR is not as good as on windows yet. But for some people Linux is good enough for what they play, or they adapt and simply stop playing what doesn’t work.
I'm personally against "just upping all the specs for no reasons" because it makes developers not take power usage into consideration anymore and makes everything less efficient. Not saying that we should code everything into assembly or something, just that a calculator app doesn't need a full gig of RAM just because phones these days can handle it, and it's cheaper to develop with
Honestly how i feel about storage space in games too
Yeah, I've noticed that development has become a lot more sloppy in the past couple of years, and it was already headed in that direction. Developers use extra resources as an excuse to be lazy rather than a tool to innovate. I'm sure that there are plenty of programmers who are just as fed up with it as we are.
Having developed software for more than two decades, I have noticed that many developers now have no respect for RAM usage or storage space. Just the other day, a dev was not surprised to see that his simple UI frontend consumed about a gig of memory! Everyone just gets into the bandwagon of creating a web based frontend even for standalone apps. The woke crowd should protest against this attitude to reduce the carbon footprint of everything we do!
+1 on praising the armor lite v5 cooler. A hidden gem, until this video! I'm glad i ordered a couple more yesterday
Heh hopefully they have enough stock that anyone impulse-buying one would not have an issue!
Yeah, a design what should be made from Rpi themselves... They did not even bother to turn the aluminium fins on RPi cooler with flow of air, but against it... therefore all cool air from fan goes up the cooler, not through it. Putting a tape on top of fins is the best upgrade for it, besides bying different cooler.
The official active cooler was a cheap 5 dollar, launch-day accessory to get users started straight away. It has a high-pitched whining noise but it keeps the board below throttling temps. The official case fan without lid is inaudibly quiet but doesn't accommodate hats. These inspired the thriving third party accessory makers to come up with better solutions later on, which has been the way since first gen pies
@@JeffGeerling Why don't you put some of those naked Pis into fully-enclosed heat-sink cases already? Reclaim the Pi's solid-state status (as long as you don't need Wi-Fi).
The piece about software bloat is so true. Most modern games these days are made for consoles first and thus are developed for systems that have 12-16gb shared system and vram. There is little to no insentive for the devs to streamline the code to work well with less ram. Contrast that with the way say Satisfactory was developed which was PC first and has had tons of optimisations to work on less powerful hardware.
That seems a more satisfactory way to develop games!
that's true only for AAA(A) games, which are the minority. The majority of games on PC are not console ports
code optimization is an absolute foreign concept for modern-day coders.....
Funny you mention Satisfactory, the switch they did to Unreal Engine 5 absolutely demolished performance, oof
It's nothing to do with that. Developers bloat games because they use Prebuilt engines that are optimised for 'all' games, not the game the developer is making.
Does it work? Yes. Does it work well? Yes. Is it fast? Yes. Does it lower the skill requirements to develop the game, leading to more jobs and better returns for the company? Yes. Is it cheap? Yes (relatively speaking) is it optimal? Only if the developer recompiles the engine to remove the unnecessary features they don't use, which may not be possible for a multitude of reasons.
For starters, it may be closed source, they literally cannot change it. It may be outside the scope of their license, hence illegal for them to do so. It may not be cost effective, a working game selling today is far more profitable than a efficiently working game sold 3 years from now. Among other reasons
On the steam download CPU utilization, i think for the vast majority of people the bottleneck is the Internet speed, so compressing it more to reduce the size at the cost of CPU cycles is a reasonable tradeoff.
That and bandwidth is expensive so steam has a pretty obvious economic incentive to make the downloads as small as possible
The problem is not inflation.
The real problem is that RPi is getting itself out of segment between MCU and Arm/x86 mini PCs, and fighting against well established cost effective solutions.
RPi was exceptional for its price/target. now it is no more at the price once it were, also no more at the power once it had.
What command is run to show system sats at 4:47?
btop!
@@JeffGeerling thanks!!
What kind of work needs 16 gb of RAM, but can still be done on the RPi 5? Genuinely curious
EDIT: perhaps I should have said “should be” instead of “can be”
AI maybe
I guess it could help during native compiling of large projects, for example the whole Qt framework.
It's useful when you can't afford (or otherwise don't have access to) nvme hat and wanted to reduce SD card wear and/or don't want to be constrained with its transfer rate. Take half of those RAM and mount it as ramdisk. Write to card only when necessary.
IIRC Valkey (redis fork) have benchmark on using RPi as kv store, which is another "exotic" use case.
Any javascript project
AI/LLMs, web services, compilation of certain things... a lot is CPU or IO bound, but there are some workloads that are memory bound which could make sense running on a Pi (especially if you're energy-constrained, like you only have 5-10W power budget).
The standard view in Steam uses a Chromium backend under the hood to display things. That's also why Steam no longer works on Windows 7 for instance. As much as I like Raspberry Pi however, it's hunger for power from the wall also increased, so I'm almost convinced my N100 mini PC was a good pick up overall, especially since I can comfortably watch Netflix and Prime Video on a TV optimized U.I.
The small view used to work without steamwebhelper (chromium), but unfortunately doesn't anymore
N100 really seems like the better choice atm. Far better software support and generally better hardware from what I remember (GPU definitely).
My 8gig Pi5 does all I need it to. It's nice to have the option though. Would have preferred a faster SoC with unified RAM. Maybe next year... Maybe $100 more dollars...?
Speaking of unified memory, it would be cool if we could start seeing high speed unified memory built into new SoCs, acting as a sort of cache for slower removable memory.
This _is_ the year :>
0:26 No it doesn't the relationship between price and memory follows the linear relationship f(x) = 5x+40, where x is ram size and f(x) cost in $. E.g. f(2) = 10+40 =50, f(4)= 20+40 = 60, f(8) = 40+40=80 and f(16) = 80+40 = 120.
I bought one. Put it in Argon one box and installed latest Konstagang LineageOS Android TV on it. Rooted with Magisk, added Google services, fan and Argon remote control scripts via ADB, Sideloaded old experimental Microsofts Xbox streaming app, my local TV provider app, national broadcast app and youtube. Add custom launcher (Sideload Launcher 4). Its just perfect to make my old bedroom 32" salvaged (LED backlight burnout) TV smart again without the usual Android TV bloatware and clutter. And it was sooooo much fun doing it. Totally worth the price.
I've been enjoying 16 GB on the Orange Pi 5 boards for a couple years already. It's pretty neat for k8s or desktop Linux where I can run games, or even running virtual machines.
I've been scared off Orange Pi and its competitors because of their reputation for poor Linux support. If that's changed, then that is *very* good to know.
So I don't need to solder on my own 16gb ram chip now?
new goal: 128GB single chip lol
@@JeffGeerling I would try that if someone proofs it works 😅
RPi5 cost is linear, not polynomial, at $40 + $5 per GB
Linear equations are first order polynomials.
And numbers are zeroth-order polynomials, but nobody calls them that.
Same as the club for Giggly Bits...
The equation has a pretty high number of boundary value, huh?
This is an Apple logic..
Steams compression is kinda nutty, 80gb download expanding into a 320gb game
I figure Steam uses very aggressive compression on game downloads since they'll be paying for network traffic. So every percent of extra compression is worth it as long as the decompression workload doesn't annoy the typical user. Also, the vast majority of systems will still be bottlenecked by network speed, rather than decompression capacity. So it's a win-win unless you've got an absolutely anemic processor and very fast internet.
I reached the bottleneck with a 13980HX and 8G internet. Steam can't go even higher than 3Gb/s or 4Gb/s before maxing all the cores of the CPU. The compression is very aggressive indeed.
Great stuff as always. I've got the 8gb version and it's for sure overkill for 95% of pi uses as you said. The only reason I went with the 8gb model was so I can configure it to run as a 2/4/8gb for testing purposes changing up the OS config file. It really helps when I'm producing video guides and I can let people know what amount of RAM is needed for the certain project.
Honestly I've kind of been waiting for it. I've had plenty of projects running on a PI that would hugely benefit from a little in-memory caching...
I have been a Pi fan boy since the pi 2. In that time, I have seen how the landscape has changed.
The Raspberry Pi has been forced to step up. In reality, they have delivered the goods, in my opinion.
Yes, there was a shortage issue for a bit, but some of that was just people complaining about it and not really looking. I was able to get a handful of Pi Zero 2s, and I was late to the party.
With the Pi 5, things seem to really be turning a new leaf. It seems the landscape has shifted again. They still hold a place in my heart for the moment. I do plan to acquire a second Pi 5. However, beyond that, I might turn to the mini pc like so many others.
There is still something to be said about the community.
instead of increasing ram on raspberry pi ,they should increase ram on pi zero's
Can't disagree with that!
Thanks for your precision in bringing quantitative data
It's almost $200 Australian dollars.. Tough sell.
Edit: one online retailer has it at $214.22 AUD.
Second Edit: But other one has... At $217.23
There are a lot of Aussies in the comment section here talking about the price.
If you factor in the exchange rate and that here in the US we don’t include sales tax in prices (add it to the list of stupid things we do) it’s almost the same. I did the math, for where I live (Chicago) the price of this Pi including tax is 135 USD or $217.94 AUD
Not saying it’s not too much, just that you’re not getting ripped off any more or less than us.
@@Davvg Those two prices include a 10% GST.
Great job on the video Jeff! Thanks for making it. Most of what you say goes right over my head, but I still enjoy your videos. It's clear you really love what you do. I've been thinking of deploying a pi-hole unit on my network, but I'm worried what that might do to my wife's work access when she's working from home. Maybe one day I'll get over it and just try it.
Would love a video explaining to folks why swapping for a long time usually crashes, not just slows down.
Usually it does not crash, but rather there's an increasingly longer list of tasks that need to be done which makes things even worse. OS is still working, but slowly and more tasks are added than finished, so RAM usage is rather increasing than decreasing.
For the same reason OS might crash, because it's possible that some buffers will be filled completely and it will lead to states that weren't really tested. Also keep in mind that there are bugs in every OS and application.
For reasons above I keep my old computers to test code I'm making. Using old Core2Duo with mechanical HDD does wonderful thing at triggering every possible bug. Especially in multi-threaded code.
swapping is a sign of too few memory. Finally it might also run out of swap space. Then the OOM killer jumps in to kill random processess to free up memory. When the OOM killer gets to important processes, the system will crash.... So, ensure you have enough memory and/or swap space....
As you say, most people don't use all the RAM on an 8GB version. I'd have thought that anyone who wants to get the best performance out of their Pi5 would already be using an NVMe SSD via PCIe with it, so it's not going to grind to a halt on the incredibly rare occasions when the RAM is full anyway. I think people need to have realistic expectations of what a Pi5 is and what can be expected of it, although I do enjoy watching you push the boundaries. My 8GB Pi5 makes an excellent "daily driver" desktop PC to the point that my main system with a hex-core AMD Ryzen 5 5600X and 32GB of DDR4-3600 RAM never gets powered up nowadays unless I have massive amounts of data to crunch in a hurry.
This would be a lot more of a competitive offer if it include the m.2 ssd instead of having to get an extra HAT.
Steam downloads are also encrypted so your CPU is also decrypting the download while decompressing them at the same time. In Windows 11, I was able to squeeze out another 100MB/s (Megabytes, not megabits) speed by setting all of the Steam related service priorities to High instead of Normal. That maxed out my 19-13900ks, but I hit peaks of ~325MBps where before I was getting ~270MBps peak. I did also have to play around with what CDN I was connected to in the Steam settings. It defaults to St. Louis for me, but if I switch to Dallas, I get higher speeds.
Are we starting to hit that arm powered gaming portable point if Valve wanted to go that route, or do we still have a ways to go before the performance is there?
Qualcomm already has some Arm chips that would be around par with the Steam Deck as it currently stands, even with something like box86/box64 as a translation layer...
However, there's still a lot to make up running x86 code on Arm, and there's nothing like Apple's M-series silicon hardware support for x86 translation baked into other Arm chips (at least not to the extent Apple's done). So the tradeoff for energy savings might be a wash until more games are compiled for arm64.
THe main issue on ARM is that the companies behind it still treat it as embedded trash so they drop a SDK with a full kernel/firmware hacked to work on their hardware and provide only limited support. Qualcomm for example has been fumbling hard their ARM support for WIndows for the last decade. It works great as a browser/office machine but good luck with graphics drivers for games when there is no debugger or documentation provided to game developers
Another issue I have with arm is software support. The fact that you need a very specific device tree and very specific support for the exact hardware configuration being run makes it way harder to get a non-factory OS running. Of course it's still possible, but it's only really done on more popular boards.
Manufacturers seem not only dead-set on keeping it this way, but some even go out of their way to resist attempts to install third party OSs.
Meanwhile on x86, even if it won't work 100% well, due to everything being standardized, I can install just about whatever I want on decade old hardware or older, or also brand new hardware on day one.
And while arm is more power efficient, it's only slightly so... And AMD's upcoming Strix Halo claims to close the gap. (Whether it does or not, we'll see.)
I see the move to arm as just making planned obsolescence even worse... I hope that either arm holdings provide a solution (they won't), or Intel and/or AMD can keep a foothold.
Nvidia has apparently hinted at making their own desktop CPUs. Owing to the unique requirements of the PC Gaming library (a metric ton of legacy code that will probably never be updated, and both performance and latency sensitive), a translation layer that preserves the library to the standard expected is likely to be a Herculean task. Among all the tech giants I can think of, Nvidia (between their hardware and software expertise) is probably in the best position to decouple the PC Gaming library from x86 if they so choose.
Not to discount AMD necessarily, though they don’t seem to have much experience with ARM, let alone designing a custom ARM chip. Their experience with x86 may nonetheless prove advantageous when developing a translation layer though.
@@Lauren_C What I mean by software support isn't running x86 code.
As I explained beyond the first sentence, I'm concerned about the hardware becoming unusable within years of its manufacture because the OEM doesn't provide system updates. Arm systems require very specific configurations in order to have an actually usable, bootable operating system. Everything on the X86 platform is standardized, which means you can run just about anything you want on even two decade old hardware. (Whether it runs well is another story, but at least it'll update for more than two years.)
TL;DR Arm-based systems have a history of planned obsolescence. They're not really designed to last in the same way that x86 machines are. On an x86 system, you can basically put whatever operating system you want on whatever machine you want, and it will at least attempt to run. On an arm system, if your kernel does not have a compatible device tree that matches the exact hardware configuration, even if every single piece of hardware on the system is compatible with that kernel, it will not be able to boot.
They ought to roll out the RAM size silkscreen on Pi 4 models too. Annoying to have to look up the RAM chip code to know what size Pi I am working with.
True!
I visited family for a month and took my 4gb pi4 with me as a PC to work on projects when I had down time. I would have loved to have more chrome/firefox tabs open.
As it happens, I need to use the RPi Global
Shutter camera to record videos of laser imagery. I'm controlling the camera from my laser controller via VNC. Which is why I believe that my recordings are stalling every few seconds So, I'm thinking of upgrading to RPi 5, with the same 1TB SSD for storing the video content.
Considering what I've already spent on laser gear, $120 is insignificant, especially as opposed to alternative global shutter cameras.
No brainer. You betcha, I'd pay $120 for the 16MB RPi 5 (but would prefer a CM5 w/NVME carrier).
🤔I think I need to shop around, before placing that order.
Thanks Jeff!
The jump in "RAM" prices on the Mac Mini makes more sense when you realise that going from 32 GB to 48 GB RAM includes $400 for more CPU and GPU cores (which you can also do while staying at 24 GB RAM). Also, while the Mac doesn't run Linux directly, I use arm64 Linux in docker on mine alllll the time and it runs really great. I've been getting 16 GB on my SBCs for a while now because something as simple as a GCC or LLVM build runs out in 8 GB. I've got 16 GB RAM on all of my HiFive Unmatched (along with PCIe, it's biggest advantage over the VisionFive 2), Lichee Pi 3A (8x SpacemiT X60), Lichee Pi 4A (4x C910), and Milk-V Megrez (4x P550, hopefully shipping before Chinese NY later this month)
I love Raspberry Pis, I love Mac minis, and I love RISC-V dev boards :D
All great for different purposes!
I love the compactness, energy efficiency and support of RPis and still have 3 in operation, but used mini PCs (HP, Lenovo and Dell) are readily available for less and usually come with SSD storage (and purchasing used unit contributes to less waste). Anyhow, minis are larger than a Pi but don't really use that much electricity, especially for those with T processors.
So, I spotted Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order (at least the main menu), Forza Horizon 4, Portal 2 and Ultimate Battle Simulator running on the the Pi5? (with box86/box64 I assume). UBS looked pretty smooth.
Yeah 25-30 fps in UBS 2, Forza was a choppy but maybe playable 20 fps, and Jedi Fallen Order would launch... sometimes. But it kept locking up. Should be playable but I may have run into some weird bug.
@@JeffGeerling Yeah, Fallen Order is behind EA Launcher.. That adds more memory load, and it sometimes wont start. That's a known issue :(
@@ptitSeb123 Indeed, and Rockstar's dumb launcher won't even complete launching under box86/box64 (maybe even under Proton?). Not sure why they all need fancy launchers. I just want to launch the game!!!
Well, apart from being storefronts, they're also often used as a part of the game's DRM scheme.
Because adding a simple login screen inside of a game itself (like good ol' Starcraft 2 does) is way too complicated for most publishers...
@@JeffGeerling last i tried with proton on rockstar game it can work but gta dropped support for linux and apparently bans in some cases
At the moment, I don't think I will. I was lucky enough to get four 8gb-Pi 5s on Amazon last November for $60 each (they screwed the price on the listing and took them off hours after I had already ordered them). Each came with heatsinks, a metal case, and thermal pads. I used one to build my 16tb NAS running OMV and Homeassistant on docker through OMV thanks to Jeff's review on the Radxa penta SATA Hat!
Maybe the price is a deterrent to Red Shirt Jeff slicing these things in half!
This tbh
Thank jeff prices during loxkdown went up and never went back down after lockdown and that with everything 🙌
I like how the pi foundation went from trying to teach computers to third world countries to raking in as much money as possible. Really charitable
I completely forgot they were a charity. They have thrown away their vision, goals, ND purpose a bit there, ay
Its a publicly traded company. If they make to many moves that look unprofitable, it sets them up for a hostile take over from shareholders to replace the CEO.
@@gesshoku92 So going public maybe was an unsustainable direction for the company to take then.
The Pi Foundation always had a commercial arm, which is run separately. And that commercial arm went public.
@@StephenLaw-mp2jk Commercial ARM more like it
What is the system monitor @ 4:40?
That was the same question I had.
^^
btop
The Steam downloads are trying to find a balance between cpu-usage and bandwith usage. So it usually tries to increase compression to save on bandwith until the CPU is fully saturated.
This could be a benefit for players with slow connections but it is also a benefit for companies like Steam, since they have to pay for all that traffic on their CDNs.
What does “Increase compression” mean? The game data is already compressed on Steam’s download CDN. All Steam clients do is decompress and write to disk
@johnsimon8457 some would instead store it on the CDN uncompressed or barely compressed so that the local clients do less work, but get screwed if they have slower connections - in comparison to that scenario the initial compression level is increased
I can make use of that. I've been shopping for 32GB ARM options (such as Radxa), would be happy to have a 32GB RPi5, but can make do with 16GB for now. The kind of software I develop is RAM intensive so more RAM means processing larger data sets with less complication. I was surprised Jeff didn't have a Linux kernel compilation benchmark 8GB vs 16GB, that's the sort of real-world metric that would help me make a decision. The other aspect of Pi5 is that it's cheaper than Nvidia Jetson, but useful for ARM compute performance tuning. But I do agree with the gist of Jeffs video, 16GB isn't going to be the most popular choice, it's more than necessary for a lot of use cases. But for me, the extra memory is a game changer. Build, debug and test on RPi5 without cross-compilation complications - nice! It's the perf per watt at reasonable scale sweet spot now perhaps. (Doing CPU compute without corded power)
Such an unnecessary upgrade. The Radxa X4 with an Intel N100 and 16GB RAM and no storage is also $120 MSRP. Same form factor, but has much better I/O and much, much faster CPU.
X4 is a great option-though with the thermal limits required to get N100 on an SBC-size board like the X4, it's only marginally faster (while being less efficient) than the Pi 5 (and much less so than RK3588!). Compatibility and IO are the two main benefits on that board.
@@JeffGeerling I agree. However, the N100 can do much more than the Pi 5, such as transcoding for Plex for example. And can run x86 based OS such as Unraid and TrueNAS
8:48 stream does torrent in addition to decompression. So I could see that for 3 cores
$120 for 16gb Pi 5?? In my country, that's the price for 8gb variant
Yup
Same here, the 4gb is also 100eur
Americans never seem to remember there are other countries that exist. Americans get most electronics cheap and love to complain about prices.
I'll be buying one, with all the community and available accessories it does what I want.
I've been running a Pi3b 24/7 since it was released, and it's still stable, and reboots after power interruptions.
My 8gig Pi does what I need.
I think we should ask the real questions like who gets amazing value out of Jeff's videos. (Everyone)
04:49 which linux console application is that, showing so many details in a single window
Htop
@@themilkywayprince that's btop, not htop
@coreforge true, i always mix them up
I have a k8s cluster with pi5, and I struggled a lot with the memory limitations. I will extend my cluster with the new 16G models, and for hardware consistency and simplicity, a pi is a much better option than a minipc, even if they are cheaper.
Some people don't understand clustering enthusiasts. But I do, it is fun, and sometimes even useful!
For home assistant core, even 512 MB on the zero 2w is sufficient. I set something like this up for family. But if you want to run more on the pi, like LLM answers etc, 16 GB would come useful.
Dad-a-base??
Seriously? You went there?
That makes me chuckle....
I think the draw to the Pi isn't so much the cost any more, it's the power efficiency. Running a full-fat dedicated server on double-digit wattages is really helpful for those entry-level low-complexity applications.
I'm done with raspberry pi as a concept. I have a pi3b+ in a drawer because it was too slow so I replaced it with 4b in the role of a home linux server, and I had to have storage on a USB SSD (which for some reason auto-unmounted every now and then so I had to reboot it daily), and recently the sd card wore out and switched to RO mode, so I gave up, put this one in a drawer as well, and got a used HP mini pc from ebay to use as a home server and that one just works. And that HP mini pc cost me about as much as a pi4 with all the stuff that's needed to make it work. And it has two NVMe slots. And expandable RAM. Raspberry pi sounded like a great idea, but turned out to be a dud.
There is one specific model of USB-to-SATA adapter made by StarTech that is recommended for the Pi4. I've had it running continuously for almost 4 years with no issues. A different adapter gave me similar problems to what you describe, where the drive would become unresponsive at random. Given how big of an issue it is to get reliable storage for a Pi, it just makes me mad they still haven't properly addressed this.
I took a 4 year break from them and just bought a 5. I was disappointed at them saying it's "4k" but requires hidden settings to enable and then having a bunch of tearing and stuttering if you actually USE it in 4K. I'm sure an 8088 chip from 1980 could toggle the pins of an 8K display controller to make the monitor say it's outputting 8k, but you wouldn't say that an 8088 "runs in 8k". It has to be usable.
I will pay you $60 plus Shipping for both Pis.
I've never really understood why people use Raspberry Pis for things a mini-pc can do. Once you get a decent case and fan and power supply and whatnot you're not far off from the price of a mini-pc anyway, just with less compatibility and speed. There's the novelty of running a non-Intel type chip, but unless you're coding in assembly there's not that much difference anyway.
The big thing a Pi gives you is the GPIO. I love being able to write up a quick program to interface with electronics. It's great for simulating equipment too - I broke our Rotork valve actuator in the lab at work, but I can write a program that pretends to be one and even hook up switches, buttons, lights, and an LCD panel to allow someone to interact with it.
@@jeffspaulding9834 I built my current setup with a 2GB Pi 4 in 2021. It runs Home Assistant along with a bunch of other services. The benefits over a mini PC were clear:
1. Cost. All in I paid ~70€. That includes a nice aluminium case for passive cooling. Reusing an old SSD saved some money. Really cheap mini PCs are a relatively recent thing. It used to be all much more expensive NUCs and thin clients.
2. Power. My Pi 4 idles at 3W. Mini PCs can easily draw 10W. That means it costs 20€ extra per year to run a mini PC here.
3. Heat. I stuffed mine into an unvented utility cupboard next to the router. Low power draw plus no vents to clog up or fan to break means this will work in perpetuity, without maintenance.
4. Space. Mini PCs have caught up, but a Pi is still among the smallest PCs you can get.
Even though it's gotten more considerably expensive since, I still prefer a Pi 4 over any mini PC. I simply don't need the extra performance. That also rules out the Pi 5 with its extra complications.
So the price is more than 50% just RAM?
rpi is starting to approach Apple-level prices. There's no way going from 8gb to 16gb has a 50% increase in BOM cost.
Memory prices be that way though :(
LPDDR4/LPDDR5 chips are outrageously expensive; comparing other SBCs in the same memory range it's not outlandish.
This is definitely a low-volume product, so there’s not much money to be made selling these at a lower markup.
A 16GB die costs 2.3× as much as 8GB due to density
I think it's plausible that it is. In an apple product, the cost of RAM as a proportion of the production cost is small. If the 8GB is half the cost of the pi, doubling it will increase the cost by 50% (even if 16GB chips are only double the price if 8GB)
8:45 anyone know what the cli program showing all those system stats at once is?
Also, wild that Forza runs on this, even at 20 fps
It's the btop
This "I'll give you five reasons, and you might enjoy the fifth one, it's certainly the most fun" clickbait line brought me back to 2010's.
Love your videos by the way.
Hehe I even went over the top making a big 🖐 :D
good review. another benefit of 16gbs of ram is running double emulation for gaming or running windows arm with gaming front ends
2:42 *sad asahi noises*
Hoping it'll make it to M3/M4 someday... :(
Definitely buying one. I extensively use my Pi 5 for multitasking- multiple programs, several browser windows, streaming video etc., and i do run out of memory sometimes despite the 8GB model.
Now if only theyd listen to my pleas and make a dedicated Pi 5 graphics card...
Proxmox would be an option, if you’re bored and want something silly to do with one :p
Greetings. In case anyone doesn't know, the quickest way to check the memory size of an rpi 5 is to boot it without microsd or usb. The screen will display information without having to disassemble anything.
I remember when we could fit most applications on a 1.44 MB floppy disk and now you need to download 100 GB just to play a game. While much of it can be attributed to more complex coding there is still a lot of redundant, unused, and unnecessary code left behind by lazy programmers. Then there are the excessive amounts of bloat added for no good reason. And then finally there is all the they truly unnecessary code like the flight sim in Windows Excel 97 - One of the earliest examples. Not to forget of course the unrealistic expectations of users and the even more unrealistic scenarios tested by TH-camrs. Nobody needs to have 20 or 30 Chrome tabs open well running a 4K game and crunching a million entry database at the same time. As for the Pi.. It is an SBC meant for education, development, and experimentation I not to be a replacement for a desktop computer or a server even if it can perform some of those tasks.
The point that Pi became too expensive and you can by mini pc with cooling, all cables , more slots etc for less money.
Minus pins.
Also there are rasberyPi similar brands Single Board Computers like rock or whatever that are cheaper.
about the code bloat part, there is no complex code, just bad design in general, most apps in the past can be reused today with little to no lost, even benefit, about games that is 100Gb more, they just overbloat the game with models amd cutscreen, the code part maybe less than 1GB. Welp, storage and Ram are less of an issue nowaday due to technology advancement, but that also lead to bad design alot, they alway keep the mindset just make a mess until cant make a mess anymore, then cleanup, but the cleanup part hardly come by. That is why when you have 1.44 Mb disk storage, you have to cleanup and make your apps better, but when you have 512Gb more, "let it be, I still have disk space left".
Mostly 4K textures take all those space.
The 16 GB model maybe has its use cases, but even I who loves having an RPi 4 as a single point of failure (if it crashes, my entire network no longer functions) struggles with filling up that RAM. Usually it's at 0.5 GB due to Pi-Hole and MariaDB, maybe it gets bigger when compiling programs, but I feel like this system could also run with 2 GB.
I'm much more interested in seeing upgrades to the Zero lineup, especially a Zero with more RAM and Ethernet built-in. A PoE HAT there would be so cool too!
No.
At that price, just get a N100 mini PC. I have several and they outperform the pi5. They should've stayed in the 20-40 bucks range IMHO. At this rate only huge rpi fans will buy their products.
Can't disagree! Though they still sell the Pi 4 at $35, and that's a great option for many use cases (I still run more Pi 4s than Pi 5s...).
I assume this means that a 16GB CM5 will be shortly following this release.
I'm running a 4GB CM4 on my HA Yellow, and wondering if I should bump up to the 8GB/16GB CM5 for it as I have a lot of devices in my home.
Honestly HA is pretty light on RAM if you don't install a bunch of plugins... though you can add on a lot on top if you want! Be sure to monitor memory usage in the system dashboard.
Some retailers already list a 16GB CM5
@@JeffGeerling I only wanted to after I saw your video on running a lightweight LLM on the Pi, which I didn't even realise was an option.
Raspberry Pi: We have a new Pi
Me: You son of a bitch, Here's my money
Na. Other boards have done most things better, they are playing catchup at this point.
Great.. I got the desktop kit for the 8gb model for Christmas and now they have a 16gb one now!? The inner “I-want-the-best-one” of me or whatever it is is going off (what disorder is that if it is one)
I would never purchase a RPi ever again after general retail customers were treated like pissants during the pandemic by the company. In reality, they don't need my money, but it's still MY money which I will save for anyone who can come up with a viable competitive product.
I'll probably pick up one of for my Home Assistant Yellow (in compute module form factor) I wanna get so I can consolidate everything to do with Homeassistant onto one PI. It'll probably not touch all the RAM all the time so speed is probably okay, but that way everything can just run in the background and be ready when I need it.
16 gig on pc: ⬛⬛⬛⬛ ⬛⬛⬛⬛
16 gig on pi :⬛
An advantage for the RPi over a mini PC is for physical computing, such as robotics, especially if involving machine learning, vision and other sensor processing, I expect 16GB will be a great bonus for those applications.
Looking forwards to a 16GB CM5.
why is it with other computer manufacturers newer models are faster and cheaper than older ones (or at least the same price), but not with Raspberry Pi?
It was released in Canada also but with the exchange rate, the Canadian price is $172.95 (Yikes!).
3:06 apparently the indicator resistor (or whatever it is) is still there, it just doesn't have a silkscreened explanation anymore.
Interesting for sure, but I think you're right about the price and N100 mini PCs at least for desktop usage. As always thankd for the honest and helpful review.
I was very very glad to get the biggest RAM capacity on my Pi 4's - enough to actually use it as a full computer without issues, running multiple VM, FreeCAD, larger browser sessions, web services etc and often more than one of them at once. Still broke into swap from time to time, but when you have compute performance to pretend to be a 'real' computer while experimenting and testing things it is very handy to have enough RAM to keep up. If i was embedding a CM or Pi in something long term a 2GB or even an older smaller model might be the choice I'd pick, assuming something more microcontroller like a Pico isn't a better choice, but for the Pi on my desk more RAM is good.
i feel like the rpi pico deliver much better on cheap computing power for tinkerers compared to the full SBC's, especially when you consider the pico2 has a RISC-V core and can get wifi to handle tcp clients. For projects and self learning microcontrollers can teach you lots of things that you might learn on a full rpi board for a fraction of the cost, and with a better grasp on low level concepts too!
0:26 Late to the party but, for a function defined only for x >=2 , it can be accurately represented as C=40+5x (no errors), so linear.
A little off the pi 5 topic but did you mention that linux can’t run on a mac mini? I thought one could run Ubuntu in a virtual environment with Parallels?
You can but native Linux has its perks. Asahi is great on M1/M2. Hopefully it makes it to M4 soon.
I just wonder what the extra ram would do for emulation. If it makes more games playable and allows for newer games to be played then it might be worth the extra money.
Ram doesn't effect emulation much. 4GB is more than enough for most emulators. The CPU is the biggest factor effecting performance.
From what I understand, It **should** allow the Pi to push in to PS4 Pro, XBone era emulation gaming with almost no hangups, as well as make more Arcade ports run better. Which is probably the last era of home console gaming that matters, since consoles become increasingly PCs with a proprietary OS, their own bloat issues, and frequent server checks for the purposes of things like DRM.
It might take some more work from emulation devs and You will probably still need to hook up an old 100$ video card to attain this, but on paper, it should be perfect for 40 years worth of gaming contained on one little, low-power machine.
@@Samael1113 Consider this: Forza Horizon 4, a title thats on Xbox One, that hes running a native PC version, with plugged in eGPU, is barely chugging as it is. And emulating x86 on ARM will be much more efficient than trying to emulate whole damn console. So, no.
@@Tepiloxtl
Yes.
Consoles are weaker typically hardware, but standardized, so get a ton more optimization put in to them.
PC Titles, especially triple AAA titles that are primarily for consoles are rarely optimized for all the modularity in hardware. In fact, they are frequently direct ports that are barely tweaked for the change in OS.
The number of perfectly working console titles which are barely functional titles that only become satisfying to play on PCs - thanks to the mod community - out there is staggering. Comparing Windows Forza to emulated Console Forza may not be a fair comparison.
And the R Pi 4 had so much work put in to it it was already capable of light emulation of Wii U and non-pro versions of PS4 and XBox titles.
There may still be a few outliers that were optimized on console perfectly and have all the bells and whistles running, but the number of titles doing that would probably be counted on your hands.
The Pi 5 with 16gb of RAM and a decent eGPU with only 4gb of RAM is miles beyond what a PS4 Pro can do.
All that is really needed is a community to do the Dev work to make it happen. And the Pi 5 being able to use an eGPU is barely more than a year old, with drivers making it viable taking up most of that available dev time.
Again, on paper, it is more than viable. And the chances are good we'll see it happen within another year. Maybe 2.
@@Tepiloxtl
Consider that Consoles are designed for economy and standardized builds. So have specs that are frequently a generation behind a solid mid-range PC. While PCs have a number of modular differences and drivers of varying ages.
This allows Devs to optimize games for these consoles with ease. Especially if console is their biggest market.
Unless there is some coding wall with x86 emulation that I am unaware of (which I figure seems unlikely considering how I frequently hear about how far it has come), the Pi 5 should be able to pull it off easily. It just requires the Dev time, which has been more focusing on getting eGPUs to work properly, until recently - considering that it is a feature barely more than a year old on Pi hardware.
IIRC the Pi 4 was already able to emulate select Wii U, Switch, PS4 and XBone titles, with varying amounts of success. And the Pi 5 without the GPU is almost 2x as powerful as a Pi 4 (and 3-4x as powerful as a PS4 Pro, again IIRC).
Also consider that while Console games are optimized very well, PC titles that have a console version are frequently a mess requiring a dedicated mod community to make playable. PC ports over the last 10 years are frequently barely more than a proverbial (sometimes literal) ctrl-c ctrl-v, with a couple lines of code to make it function on the new OS. So comparing an emulated Console game and PC version of that game likely is not fair.
Currently this is all theorycraft, which is why I said "on paper" earlier, but the PS4 Pro and XBone were not that powerful by even the standards of their day, I can't imagine their operating architecture is that difficult to emulate either (as opposed to something like the Saturn). So, I wouldn't be surprised if over the next year, maybe two, we see the Retro Pi 5 builds include an increasing library of PS4 Pro, XBone, Wii, Wii U and maybe even Switch titles. Not to mention some of the larger arcade ports having their issues smoothed out.
I will cede that there may be a few titles that are perfectly optimized for the Pro version hardwares and are problematic for proper emulation, but I imagine the number of titles like that could be counted on both hands. But ultimately, yes.
Raspberry Pi 5 w/ 16Gb, limited quantity here in Australia and its costing $217.50 for a single unit (board only) ... 2Gb @ $83, 4Gb @ $101.07 and 8Gb @ $134.75
What's that fancy htop he's running? 8:19
It's btop
I use it everyday instead of htop or top
I still love htop.