anyone knows why the subordinate theme begins in eb minor instead of major? min 2:47 I've seen that its unexpected in every analysis but no one says why Beethoven did this
I guess that it's just Beethoven's choice! I am not at all an expert, but I would say to surprise the listener who expects a major theme, hence increasing the dramatic effect. And I really like the transition to Eb major that arrives later.
Are you the pianist in the recording? If so, astonishing playing, and stunningly effective transfer of your understanding of the piece into performance.
Hello, thanks a lot for sharing your work, I have a question : What does "H.C" or "PAC" or "IAC" mean, as "Important structural cadences" (blue color) ?
Yes, sorry about that -- Eleanor Muti is exactly right: HC stands for half cadence, PAC stands for perfect authentic cadence, and IAC stands for imperfect authentic cadence.
I am a fellow teacher in full admiration of what you have done. I would like to do it for some different pieces that are in the Royal Conservatory of Music history courses. What programme do you use for this? Or do you simply use a graphic of the score and add the text boxes in a graphics programme?
Emlyn, I somehow overlooked your comment -- very sorry about that! I do exactly as you thought: I use a graphic of the score and add text boxes. Thanks for your kind words!
That's probably true. My only concern is that I'd then be doing the homework of hundreds (if not thousands) of undergraduate students throughout Canada and the United States. Then again, there's much more to harmony than labeling chords and modulations, so perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad idea to provide that information.
Andrew Schartmann It's comical that at any concert in the USA or Canada less than0.00025% have any idea about the harmonic content of music performed because of your attitude towards music.Go to David Bennet Thomas composer or Byron Weigel youtube and a student will learn more about composition because these teachers are trying to help students.The rest are trying to keep students in the dark.I wish you the very best but feel sorry for you.Someday you'll wise up
Huh? How am I keeping anyone in the dark. If I wanted to keep people in the dark, I wouldn't have posted analytical videos. And in any case, simply annotating a score isn't going to teach people anything. To understand how harmony works requires a lot more than a few videos with Roman numerals underneath. Also, why is it comical that very few people who attend concerts understand the underlying technical features of the music? Are you proposing some sort of utopian universe in which everyone studies and understands every field? Beethoven didn't write symphonies because he wanted people to study them. He wrote symphonies because he wanted people of *all* walks of life to listen to them and enjoy them. You don't need any education in music in order to enjoy it. It's also very ignorant to say "the rest are trying to keep students in the dark." Who exactly do you mean by "the rest"? Everyone except for the two people you mentioned? Do you honestly think that professors devote their lives to teaching others in order to hide things? That's simply not true, and to say that it is makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Andrew Schartmann Thank you for your reply.I shouldn't have been so critical of you.It's a crazy situation that chords are inserted in jazz and popular music but not in classical.Classical music. Students,at a young age,shy away from understanding the harmony of a composition and very many teachers too.It is a very sad situation that even the most popular classical compositions like Beethovins 5th sym,1st movement are not analyised with chords and modulations inserted so only a small fraction of students can learn about composition.If you uploaded Beethovins 5th sym first movement with chords and modulations you would be doing a great service world wide helping people to understand the music.I wrote my earlier comments in desperation.
I'm sorry that you feel so hopeless with respect to classical music education. I agree that the resources available to the general public aren't great. Perhaps you didn't see, but I did analyze the chords and modulations in one of my videos on Beethoven's Piano Sonata in F minor, Op. 2/1: Harmonic Analysis - Beethoven, Piano Sonata in F minor, Op. 2/1, Allegro (exposition) I'll definitely consider doing more videos like that in the future.
A look at Beethoven's Sonata 1-10 analysis th-cam.com/video/3D77-H2Jo1o/w-d-xo.html SERGİ = EXPOSİTİON GELİŞME= DEVELOPMENT SERGİNİN TEKRARI=REEXPOSİTİON ANA TEMA=FİRST THEME YAN TEMA=2. THEME BİTİŞ TEMASI=CODA
The development begins in E minor -- there's a neat modulation from g minor to e minor when the Grave section returns -- and the main theme is in C minor.
Thank you! I have two more questions. I'm confused about the "return of the slow introduction", is that part of the exposition or is it some kind of transition Beethoven put there between the exposition and the development? And is the development in the keys of Em, C, F, B and G?
Part of the point here is that the return of the introduction is highly unusual, so it isn't accounted for in traditional theories of sonata form. That said, if you know William E. Caplin's theory of formal functions, you could argue that it is a pre-core -- and thus a part of the development section proper. You're on the right track with the keys, but the music doesn't actually define as many keys as you've listed. Hint: starting with the D chord, the music passes through different harmonies that are all part of a specific kind of sequence.
RHello! Rhi nhroticed somee rohf yourrh chordss rhad the rhwrong rhfunction. Frhoh rhexample, 2 in a minor key, is rhupposed toah breah ii. Rhotherwise, rhnot rbhad. Rhthanks!!! -Creed
Thanks for your comment, Jonathon. You'll notice that all of my videos use *only* upper-case Roman numerals. My goal is to provide a harmonic analysis of these pieces, not to engage in the rudimentary task of identifying chord qualities (e.g., major, minor, diminished, etc.) It's just a matter of style (see Schoenberg's "Structural Functions of Harmony" for a published example of the upper-case style). In any case, in the system you use, II in a minor key is not ii; it's iio ("o" should be superscript), since II is diminished, not minor.
They're actually Schoenberg's definitions ("fest und locker" in German), which were later developed by Erwin Ratz, and then finally by Caplin in the 1990s.
The marks are sometimes confusing. I don't know if they belong to the system above or below.
Thank you very much for this analysis of the sonata. It's very useful.
anyone knows why the subordinate theme begins in eb minor instead of major? min 2:47
I've seen that its unexpected in every analysis but no one says why Beethoven did this
I guess that it's just Beethoven's choice! I am not at all an expert, but I would say to surprise the listener who expects a major theme, hence increasing the dramatic effect. And I really like the transition to Eb major that arrives later.
Are you the pianist in the recording? If so, astonishing playing, and stunningly effective transfer of your understanding of the piece into performance.
It sounds like Brendel playing. I actually have the CD and everything sounds exactly the same!
It's Brendel
Hello,
thanks a lot for sharing your work,
I have a question : What does "H.C" or "PAC" or "IAC" mean, as "Important structural cadences" (blue color) ?
Hello :) I had the same interrogation as you cause I'm French so I'm not use to english abreviations >
Yes, sorry about that -- Eleanor Muti is exactly right: HC stands for half cadence, PAC stands for perfect authentic cadence, and IAC stands for imperfect authentic cadence.
I am a fellow teacher in full admiration of what you have done. I would like to do it for some different pieces that are in the Royal Conservatory of Music history courses. What programme do you use for this? Or do you simply use a graphic of the score and add the text boxes in a graphics programme?
Emlyn, I somehow overlooked your comment -- very sorry about that! I do exactly as you thought: I use a graphic of the score and add text boxes. Thanks for your kind words!
outstanding! Thanks!
Thank you very much. It helps me a lot.
Could you do some Chopin?
If you add chords and modulation your site will have limitless growth
That's probably true. My only concern is that I'd then be doing the homework of hundreds (if not thousands) of undergraduate students throughout Canada and the United States. Then again, there's much more to harmony than labeling chords and modulations, so perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad idea to provide that information.
Andrew Schartmann It's comical that at any concert in the USA or Canada less than0.00025% have any idea about the harmonic content of music performed because of your attitude towards music.Go to David Bennet Thomas composer or Byron Weigel youtube and a student will learn more about composition because these teachers are trying to help students.The rest are trying to keep students in the dark.I wish you the very best but feel sorry for you.Someday you'll wise up
Huh? How am I keeping anyone in the dark. If I wanted to keep people in the dark, I wouldn't have posted analytical videos. And in any case, simply annotating a score isn't going to teach people anything. To understand how harmony works requires a lot more than a few videos with Roman numerals underneath.
Also, why is it comical that very few people who attend concerts understand the underlying technical features of the music? Are you proposing some sort of utopian universe in which everyone studies and understands every field? Beethoven didn't write symphonies because he wanted people to study them. He wrote symphonies because he wanted people of *all* walks of life to listen to them and enjoy them. You don't need any education in music in order to enjoy it.
It's also very ignorant to say "the rest are trying to keep students in the dark." Who exactly do you mean by "the rest"? Everyone except for the two people you mentioned? Do you honestly think that professors devote their lives to teaching others in order to hide things? That's simply not true, and to say that it is makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Andrew Schartmann Thank you for your reply.I shouldn't have been so critical of you.It's a crazy situation that chords are inserted in jazz and popular music but not in classical.Classical music. Students,at a young age,shy away from understanding the harmony of a composition and very many teachers too.It is a very sad situation that even the most popular classical compositions like Beethovins 5th sym,1st movement are not analyised with chords and modulations inserted so only a small fraction of students can learn about composition.If you uploaded Beethovins 5th sym first movement with chords and modulations you would be doing a great service world wide helping people to understand the music.I wrote my earlier comments in desperation.
I'm sorry that you feel so hopeless with respect to classical music education. I agree that the resources available to the general public aren't great. Perhaps you didn't see, but I did analyze the chords and modulations in one of my videos on Beethoven's Piano Sonata in F minor, Op. 2/1: Harmonic Analysis - Beethoven, Piano Sonata in F minor, Op. 2/1, Allegro (exposition)
I'll definitely consider doing more videos like that in the future.
A look at Beethoven's Sonata 1-10 analysis
th-cam.com/video/3D77-H2Jo1o/w-d-xo.html
SERGİ = EXPOSİTİON
GELİŞME= DEVELOPMENT
SERGİNİN TEKRARI=REEXPOSİTİON
ANA TEMA=FİRST THEME
YAN TEMA=2. THEME
BİTİŞ TEMASI=CODA
Does the development start in E minor? Is the main theme in C major or C minor?
The development begins in E minor -- there's a neat modulation from g minor to e minor when the Grave section returns -- and the main theme is in C minor.
Thank you! I have two more questions. I'm confused about the "return of the slow introduction", is that part of the exposition or is it some kind of transition Beethoven put there between the exposition and the development?
And is the development in the keys of Em, C, F, B and G?
Part of the point here is that the return of the introduction is highly unusual, so it isn't accounted for in traditional theories of sonata form. That said, if you know William E. Caplin's theory of formal functions, you could argue that it is a pre-core -- and thus a part of the development section proper.
You're on the right track with the keys, but the music doesn't actually define as many keys as you've listed. Hint: starting with the D chord, the music passes through different harmonies that are all part of a specific kind of sequence.
Ok, thanks!
RHello! Rhi nhroticed somee rohf yourrh chordss rhad the rhwrong rhfunction. Frhoh rhexample, 2 in a minor key, is rhupposed toah breah ii. Rhotherwise, rhnot rbhad.
Rhthanks!!!
-Creed
Thanks for your comment, Jonathon. You'll notice that all of my videos use *only* upper-case Roman numerals. My goal is to provide a harmonic analysis of these pieces, not to engage in the rudimentary task of identifying chord qualities (e.g., major, minor, diminished, etc.) It's just a matter of style (see Schoenberg's "Structural Functions of Harmony" for a published example of the upper-case style). In any case, in the system you use, II in a minor key is not ii; it's iio ("o" should be superscript), since II is diminished, not minor.
haha tight knit loose knit thats Caplin funny definitions :)
They're actually Schoenberg's definitions ("fest und locker" in German), which were later developed by Erwin Ratz, and then finally by Caplin in the 1990s.