Slight but important note: The Imperium in Dune is not a galactic empire, its nearly universal. One title of the Emperor is the Emperor Of The Known Universe. Since FTL travel in Dune is nearly without restriction, the Imperium is known to spread across multiple galaxies. Its one of the largest human polities in fiction given this fact.
Also Brian Herbert's prequel books, specifically the last one in the Butlerian Jihad series mention that the Thinking Machines and the remaining Cy-Meks retreated to the edges of the universe/known space.
Facts, I encountered some Warhammer fans who were using the imperium's size as a reason it would beat the empire in dune, I simply said what is one galaxy to the known universe.
It should be noted that Palpatine did not in fact coup the Republic. He was legally voted into his autocratic position entirely legally. Along with all of his various increases in power throughout the prequels. Being universally granted to him both democratically and within the legal framework of the Republic. That's what makes him eo impressive he didn't take his power through force. He manipulated tge entire galactic legal system into creating a dictatorship and placing him on top.
@@sabre3696 More like with Roman Republic to Roman Empire. Lucas was inspired by Augustus and his manipulations in Senate to become an emperor. You may see it that way, but only thing Lucas implemented from Third Reich (and only partly) was the uniforms.
@@willqr1101 Lucas definitely melded Caesar and Augustus together, as Caesar was granted his immense power by the senate temporarily in a time of war and then refused to concede it, whereas Augustus had to make alliances with various power players and fight a civil war to establish his empire, the empire was already established by the time of the civil war in Star Wars, but yeah I agree it's definitely based on Rome's transition from republic to empire.
I always found it funny how Palpatine’s Empire, which he designed to be eternal, lasted only 24 years, while Leto II’s Empire, which he designed to collapse, lasted well over 3,500 years.
You mention how in 40k there is a constant threat of Xenos and Chaos even during its "Decline" phase, but you forgot to include the Imperium's "Extremely Central" event - the Horus Heresy. The events resulted to irreversible changes that made the Imperium that we know today.
That’s what started the decline or stagnation of the Imperium yes, and also in the GC there were human societies that were self sufficient and knew of chaos and was able to recruit other intelligent alien species. But the Imperium destroyed any human society that didn’t bend their knee and xenophobic to all alien life!
This was a fun video. You touched on it mentioning how 40k was inspired by Dune, but in addition to that, it was inspired by Foundation as well, and Star Wars was inspired by Dune, and Dune was inspired by Foundation. And then of course, Asimov was inspired to write Foundation after reading a book called The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. It all circles back.
Should be pointed that Empire's don't need to fall. Successful empire can evolve, adopting to new challenges and sometimes lack of those. Most empires fall, because they fail switch from conquest powered economy and military, to such based on modern principles.
No bro eventually all the people you’ve conquered ask for suffrage and then systematically destroy the minority conquerors culture…. This is a fall and a failure. Empires don’t work because less developed cultures are intrinsically ignorant.
Id argue that their empire was actually fairly successful, its just that the reapers, being technologically superior, killing off Prothean leaders at the citadel, is what made them fall. Although Javik does admit that the single ideology that all Protheans subscribed too also contributed to their fall. They did manage to resist for hundreds of years however, more than what most can do.
18:29 In the expanded universe, this was sold to the general public that the Senate was suspended only for the duration of the "galactic emergency" caused by the Rebellion.
Victory. That is what the preachers cry from the spires of their temples. What commanders tell the soldiers in their service. The Indomitus Crusade meets with triumph after triumph. Day by day, we tear Imperium Nihilus from the Despoiler's grip. And though we are beset on all sides, with each battle we drive back the mutant, the heretic, THE ALIEN. As I speak these words, our forces engage the remnants of Leviathan. Reclaiming lost worlds, atoning for old shames. A crusade to cleanse the stars. Taking the fight to the enemy. We routed the Tyranids at Baal. We broke their hive fleet. Soon, their foulness will be but a memory. THAT is what the preachers say. Belief will not save us. Lies will not protect us. But it is our hope that will damn us. In the spires and the slums, our people sing of victory. Victory, as the galaxy burns. Victory, as the Imperium rots around us. Victory, as humanity rages against the dying of the light. Victory... - Roboute Guilliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium, Primarch of the Ultramarines, and Son of the God Emperor.
40k empire exists in a strange point between expansion, peak and decline. It constantly loses and gains new worlds, creates new armies and has older armies wiped out. As for the control it has over worlds it consists of - fortress worlds, forge worlds, a lot of hive worlds are under quite oppressive control, but agri worlds, feudal worlds and feudal ones have imperial authority deep in their background. At the same time even the oppressive control isn't enough to root out Chaos and/or Genestealer influences or even organise crime. Some worlds try to remove "problematic" parts of their populace by inducting them into units of Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum, that get send out into wider galaxy, only to find out that empire authorities need exactly that kind of fighters so planetary rulers almost need to keep their worlds in the same circumstances, that produce "troublemakers" among peoples they govern over.
@ДАРТАНЬЯН-з2щ Perhaps you're right. Perhaps Girlyman and Lyonel (misspelled on purpose) are only making the last great push before fall of darkness. Or it will continue in the same state of undead/unliving as Emperor.
@PobortzaPl to survive Imperium needs to enter in period if relative peace/abscense of ourside threats and have a skilled leader to throughly reform its institutions. Both of this is problematic.
@@velstadtvonausterlitz2338. Does he set tax or religious policy? The Emperor is de jure the master of mankind, but in reality power lay with the high 12 for 10 millenia.
@@Wildgamer2205 Assuming, of course, that it is in fact the Emperor who controls the Astronomican and not some sort of gestalt entity of the untold number of Psykers who have been sacrificed to keep the Golden Throne operational. The Imperium's fear of learning new things means we may never know for sure.
Yes, because despite his current circumstances he is still the Emperor of all Mankind. Even if the humans don’t want to obey him, all he has to do is sick the Custodes on them for an hour and they’ll be back to whistling Dixie.
The Machine Empire from the underrated vintage anime, Galaxy Express 999. They were involved in the countless destruction of multiple species throughout the galaxy, using their bodies as fuel for their robotic bodies, nothing could stop the machines. Or so it seemed, their decline was officially set in motion, when they overestimated themselves and downplayed the will and fighting spirit of humanity and the various species in the universe.
Just a note that the robots in Asimov's world did not bypass their 3 laws to rise up. The war was between humans only. Robots were watching over and helping humanity for a better future.
One could argue that the Imperium of Man has been in a slow decline ever since the Horus Heresy. Another way to look at it, it matured, but in a completely different way than intended by the Emperor, and then began to decline.
My argument is that the Great Crusade itself was the point where the Imperium was well and truly doomed. From what I have gathered, it's most likely that the Emperor took advantage of the chaos of the Long Night to seize control of Terra and reform the government into a dictatorship in his image, and direct his citizens' fear and anger at their alien allies, and then to any dissenters. Everything that plagues the Imperium today came out of the Crusade.
It’s on the decline because of the outside threats and because the Imperium relies on the Emperor to stay on the Golden Throne to protect humanity from Chaos spilling into the material galaxy. Without the Emperor humanity would definitely be destroyed!
Asimov's robots did not rise up, they took themselves out of human society for the most part, guided and helped humanity, also the God Emperor Leto 2 engineered his own demise over his 3000+ year reign.
Great video! Enjoyed the back ground of the empires you covered and their structure. You highlighted some very important points as to how they govern their populations.
The Emperium of man may fall (that is if Games Workshop does not fiat writing). The biggest threat in the long run may be the Tau empire. The reason is it has an alternative to offer. You point out the emperium is bad but it better than the Tyrnads eating you. But rhe humans taken by the Tau will notice an improvement in standards of living. The "this is the only way" montra will not work on this one. Now the Tau may not be the goodguys; however, the choice is be under a tyrannical system that neglects you or a tyrannical system that at least feeds you. It comes down to paradigms competing for the harts of the population.
Imperium Of Man. Also, as Guilliman has returned, I don't see this being a huge long-term issue. If nothing else expanded Ultramar around there borders. I guess you got to learn to like blue though.
Exactly very good point and with the split in the IoM, chaos and other xenos have an easier time to attack and conquer. Imo the IoMay not fall entirely but it definitely would (and should writing wise) become weaker on basis of s planets that are ruled!
Good video. I think the construction of the second empire in foundation is the most interesting part of the series, displaying how a society changes and adapts, splinters and comes together. Yet huge upsets of the current order (for example the Mule) can eventually, by the power of momentum, be folded back into the existing structures. It reminds me of the Iranian/Persian empires and the Chinese dynasties, where the ruling classes changed yet large portions of the administration remained throughout the ages. One thing I always miss when space empires are discussed is just the pure logistics of it. Foundation had some good discussion, inspired by Rome iirc., that if the empire wanted to quell uprisings in the periphery, they needed to give the general in command of the expedition a great deal of autonomy, a lot of resources and a huge armada. And if they succeeded, now the general had a powerbase, and enough resources to - if not challenge the empire outright - pose a large threat to the core worlds. And even if they weren't going for the throne, there was nothing stopping them from continuing on, an issue faced by Rome and the Mongols, stretching the empire thinner, increasing the time it took for messages to reach the furthest corners, and as such increasing the autonomy of the outer provinces.
Glad you enjoyed the video and great points on Foundation. I agree, just the sheer expanse of a galactic empire would render it infeasible as exemplified by Asimov's Trantor. Even with FTL travel the logistics, like you said would be a nightmare
The problem with fall of the Rome is that it didn't fall. For some reason popular discourse completely ignore massive changes Rome actually faced. Threat was inside, not the outside. Most people in Rome cheered change and preferred rule of Germanic Tribes, who actually were part of Roman administration.
@@TheRezroWhat you are saying is that the Western Roman Empire wasn’t taken from foreign Germanic incursions. Instead it was dissolved by internal competition between the Latin and Latinised peoples of the empire who following the decentralisation of the west, competed with each other to reestablish order, but failed and instead became the various Romance cultures of Western Europe. If that’s true then the Roman Empire is still alive today in the forms of Spain, Portugal, France and Italy, just as it survived in east in the form of the Byzantine Empire. That would be a very unique way to view history. However my question is weren’t the Foederatti independent and thus different states from Rome?
@@teyrncousland7152 1) No. That was already a thing from 3'th century. Germanic conquest didn't happen. It was a internal desolation. 2) More Latins and Greeks. Germans actually bring solutions what did work in long run. Contrary to myth medieval states were more developed then ancient Rome. Byzantine start ignoring them fearing internal takeover. 3) Franks (Galia) were literally a Roman province. Claim to contrary was product of Engagement Nationalism. 4) The Tribes were independent as organizations. But from edict of Caracalla every free man in the Empire was a citizen. By 6'th century, Germans were heavily integrated in West Rome structures (many Germans were Magister Militum), same as by by 18'th century Latin was administrative language or Germany and even Poland.
21:38 An historical inaccuracy. It was not the storm troopers in interwar Germany that carried out oppression and caused fear into the population. That was Hitler’s Brown Shirts and later the SS and Gestapo. The storm troopers were a strike force to find and break through weaker lines in an enemy’s defenses and get deep behind enemy lines.
@Noone-zf6ps Except your "correction" is incorrect. The SA were deliberately named "Storm Troopers" to invoke the popular image of those ww1 units you mentioned.
I swear if this video essay doesn't mention the Goldenbaum empire I'll riot. Kircheis did not die for this, Reinhardt Von Lohengramm would never stand for this.
@anon2427 it's an obscure 80's anime but it would be quite relevant to this conversation as the whole show is framed as history chronicles relating the great war between the Goldenbaum Empire and the Free planets federation. It is constantly concerned about empire building and space politics and... it is really good, all 110 episodes of it.
That’s speculation there’s other info that states there was a human federation but it wasn’t spanning the entire galaxy, they only have colonies in certain areas. Because around that time the Eldar were the main power in the galaxy not humans! (Some aspects of 40k history is muddled)
Thank you and a you have a great ear! I run the Lorebrarians, but this is my second channel (a little passion project) more for discussing the philosophy and literary merit of different fictional universes. Haven't yet done any promotion for it on The Lorebrarians. Hope you enjoy that content too
I randomly foubd this video after several viewings of the Dreadnaught vs Helldrake scene from Space Marine 2🤣 Glad i did. Great video. My favorite empire is the Achaemenid Persian Empire. Respect from Nigeria
I find the entire concept of such a huge polity being an empire, a monarchy, very hard to swallow. There are just too many people, too many places for it to be manageable by a single person and his cadre of authoritarian advisors. Especially since these examples have chosen to basically outlaw any possible technological assistance that might've eased the decision making processes in these governments. It's as believable as a "world kingdom" on Earth.
Idk about the other empire but The Imperium of Man basically rule itself no need for a king or God Emperor, though it would help. The entire thing is bound together by blood,, sweat, faith, cum and duct tape as the central bureaucratic body can't actually handle all the admin work and basically every part of the empire get to do whatever it wants as long as they pay taxes on time
My thoughts exactly. A galaxy spanning civilization would be very, VERY decentralized. A single planet could have a king/emperor, while others would have different forms of government
in star wars galactic empire, you had a governor ruling a planet, a governor for a sector, a grand moff who ruled multiple sectors, all who obeyed the emperor,, so it was broken down for each level, the higher you got the more power a individual had over the majority
Interesting video however, you should've included the mouse utopia because I firmly believe that it is interrelated with the life cycle of all empires and great civilizations. The mouse utopia experiment has shown us that predator filled environments lead to higher birthrates in mice. Predator free environments lead to lower and eventually zero birth rates in mice. I believe that this same phenomenon applies to human populations. We have just about conquered famine, war, disease and death. What I mean by conquering death is that through medical advances we have extended the human life span. Increase the survivability of both mother and child during birth. We have eradicated polio and smallpox to the point that inoculation is no longer required. I think fictional examples of what I'm talking about are Vulcans of the Star Trek universe and the isolationist Kryptonians from Man of Steel. I'm talking about two different highly advanced civilizations, one that has eliminated all of the banes of their existence and one who created a paradise forcing them to use artificial methods for birthing children. What I'm trying to say is that a harsh environment is what lead to higher birth rates which will lead to expansionism.
Interestingly enough, Hitler said that he did not want total victory in the east. He preferred if there were Russian partisans fighting, for years and years. That way, the German people would be kept strong.
The claim that a feudal system like Dune’s is more oppressive than a totalitarian state like the Galactic Empire of Star Wars is indefensible. Feudalism encourages the decentralization of authority and the maintenance of local traditions and communities. Totalitarianism imposes itself into the daily life of the citizenry to ensure the state, as a centralized institution, is in complete control. A feudal peasant may be utterly subservient to his liege lord, but that is a personal relationship mediated by mutual obligations. The citizen of a totalitarian state, by contrast, is effectively the property of a vast institution which has no real understanding of or care for their individual well being.
I don't think the Romulans are have the ethnic diversity and multiculturalism to truly be an Empire, The Dominion are however a great example. Especially when we look at how the Jem'Hadar and Vor'ta were shaped for specific branches of the regime
Nah, the imperium is still in the process of falling. Everybody around be twitchy about where the corpse will land because thats gonna be new asstown. Nobody want to be in new asstown. Its ass.
Is falling, has been falling since at least the Horus Rebellion, and arguably was doomed to fail from the beginning. Psychic supermen from the Bronze Age are only a slightly more stable basis of government than strange women lying around in ponds. Add into that almost everything the Emperor did to improve humanity inevitably doing the opposite, and the Imperium was never going to last.
I mean it’s a fraction of its power and influence. It has completely thrown out its original views concepts and beliefs. Idk how you could call it anything but fallen in all but name. Sure the astartes are still there but even an astartes from current 40k would sound crazy in 30k.
I understand that this is a summary, but calling 40k's Wrap travel "safe" or "precise" is blatantly untrue. Wrap travel relies on your navigator being able to see the light of the Emperor, a force field around your ship that no one has understood in over 10 millennia not failing, and time staying stable enough that you don't spend subjective centuries to travel a couple of light years. Even then, you might emerge in the wrong system, or decades earlier or later than you departed.
With all this examples it raises the question on what kind of future does mankind have? It appears that any level of development and advancement (just like Earth (needs a better name😒)) Empires are needed to create the foundations and frame work needed for greater civilizations or nations to rise from. Side Note - all these comparisons really shows how terrible and selfish the rebels/Terrorists from Star Wars were, upset with a more restrictive regime over a corrupted system while other empires are far worse.
4:09 tbf I'd argue that rome does not follow this rule. Remus and Romulus were theives and murderers who founded an unnoteable city. This is even within their own legendarium.
That was the foundation of the CITY, not the empire. The foundation of the Roman empire occurs in the Pyrrhic Wars and the civil wars of Julius and Augustus, which were very emotional, epic, and legendary.
@beepbop6542 I guess that could be argued that way. That would bring into question when an empire is born. If it requires an epic moment, then this would be a self-fulfilling axiome. I'd argue that the beginning of Imperial Rome began with the senate. That wasn't all that epic. Alternatively, it could be argued that the empire began when it first claimed territory. I see your point but I'm not sure it requires epicness.
18:38 Yeah, senate was hollow mockery... roughly for 20 000 years.😅 Galactic Empire's senate represented citizens more than Old Republic's, New Republic's & Galactic Alliance's combined. To understand what did all senates beside empire's one: most of the times when some powerful subject tried to enslave, eat (straight forward eat, use citizens as food) or subjugate other less powerful subject and less powerful went to the senate for help, senate deployed jedi & other forces to help the agressor, the strong one, to destroy the weak and after that put all the blame on a weak one calling it agressor. Empire's senate on the other hand didn't do this, because it had not enough authority to do such things.
Great video mate!! Really enjoyed it and will subscribe for future videos but I have to dislike it mate. No mention of the Spanish empire at 0:24? Wow, sorry but Im not falling into this anglo-saxon propaganda
I do think its fun that you draw a distinction between Herberts Empires and 40k when the 40k creators just filed the serial numbers off Herberts universe and just gave everyone huge shoulder pads
It's quite different. The only real similarities are space travel controlled by psychics and the immortal emperor who hates his job. But even there, Herbert's emperor rejects his humanity in order to lead it, with a strictly oppressive and centralized government, while the 40k emepror is the pinnacle human specimen, but has little authority over his scattered empire after his injuries in the Horus heresy.
@beepbop6542 lol no. The sardaukar are literally the inspiration for the astartes. I just cant deal with illiterate people who think things need to be a 1:1 copy to count. Foh
@@BradyRamakerThe way Dune cheerleaders try this same, tired routine on literally every property that even slightly mimics or resembles their pet IP is as hilarious as it is pathetic and predictable.
@@BradyRamaker -So infinitely superior and contains far less damaging elements?- This isn't really true, no. 40k has virtually zero meaningful resemblance to Dune, past surface-level elements, especially in its modern iteration.
![THE EMPEROR OF MAN [1] The Rise of Humanity | WARHAMMER 40,000 Lore / History](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KyPjE1Sn-Ts/mqdefault.jpg)
Slight but important note: The Imperium in Dune is not a galactic empire, its nearly universal. One title of the Emperor is the Emperor Of The Known Universe. Since FTL travel in Dune is nearly without restriction, the Imperium is known to spread across multiple galaxies. Its one of the largest human polities in fiction given this fact.
Source: The original Dune Encyclopedia.
Also Brian Herbert's prequel books, specifically the last one in the Butlerian Jihad series mention that the Thinking Machines and the remaining Cy-Meks retreated to the edges of the universe/known space.
In the Duniverse, CHOAM stands for Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles
Wait the imperium is a intergalactic sized empire, damn
Facts, I encountered some Warhammer fans who were using the imperium's size as a reason it would beat the empire in dune, I simply said what is one galaxy to the known universe.
It should be noted that Palpatine did not in fact coup the Republic. He was legally voted into his autocratic position entirely legally. Along with all of his various increases in power throughout the prequels. Being universally granted to him both democratically and within the legal framework of the Republic. That's what makes him eo impressive he didn't take his power through force. He manipulated tge entire galactic legal system into creating a dictatorship and placing him on top.
Just like Hitler and the transition from the Weimar Republic to the Thrid Reich (Thrid Empire.)
Hears about a man getting elected to power “omg it’s just like hitler guys”
@@sabre3696 More like with Roman Republic to Roman Empire. Lucas was inspired by Augustus and his manipulations in Senate to become an emperor.
You may see it that way, but only thing Lucas implemented from Third Reich (and only partly) was the uniforms.
A self coup is possible where you forcibly replace your whole cabinet. Alberto Fujimori did that during the "Fujishock" era of Peru in the 90s
@@willqr1101 Lucas definitely melded Caesar and Augustus together, as Caesar was granted his immense power by the senate temporarily in a time of war and then refused to concede it, whereas Augustus had to make alliances with various power players and fight a civil war to establish his empire, the empire was already established by the time of the civil war in Star Wars, but yeah I agree it's definitely based on Rome's transition from republic to empire.
I always found it funny how Palpatine’s Empire, which he designed to be eternal, lasted only 24 years, while Leto II’s Empire, which he designed to collapse, lasted well over 3,500 years.
suffering from success moment
You mention how in 40k there is a constant threat of Xenos and Chaos even during its "Decline" phase, but you forgot to include the Imperium's "Extremely Central" event - the Horus Heresy. The events resulted to irreversible changes that made the Imperium that we know today.
That’s what started the decline or stagnation of the Imperium yes, and also in the GC there were human societies that were self sufficient and knew of chaos and was able to recruit other intelligent alien species. But the Imperium destroyed any human society that didn’t bend their knee and xenophobic to all alien life!
This was a fun video. You touched on it mentioning how 40k was inspired by Dune, but in addition to that, it was inspired by Foundation as well, and Star Wars was inspired by Dune, and Dune was inspired by Foundation. And then of course, Asimov was inspired to write Foundation after reading a book called The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. It all circles back.
Thank you
Should be pointed that Empire's don't need to fall. Successful empire can evolve, adopting to new challenges and sometimes lack of those. Most empires fall, because they fail switch from conquest powered economy and military, to such based on modern principles.
No bro eventually all the people you’ve conquered ask for suffrage and then systematically destroy the minority conquerors culture…. This is a fall and a failure. Empires don’t work because less developed cultures are intrinsically ignorant.
Would you be referring to the American Empire?
Source?
@@wizardlybananagaming7556 muh dick
The Empire in your head?
Another example of a galactic empire - Protheans from Mass Effect.
Conquest and oppression - check
War with robots - check
Decline and fall - check
Id argue that their empire was actually fairly successful, its just that the reapers, being technologically superior, killing off Prothean leaders at the citadel, is what made them fall. Although Javik does admit that the single ideology that all Protheans subscribed too also contributed to their fall. They did manage to resist for hundreds of years however, more than what most can do.
They didn't so much decline and fall so much as they were exterminated by the reapers.
Proteans were the do all slaves see shoggoths for an example of the idea.
18:29 In the expanded universe, this was sold to the general public that the Senate was suspended only for the duration of the "galactic emergency" caused by the Rebellion.
Victory.
That is what the preachers cry from the spires of their temples.
What commanders tell the soldiers in their service.
The Indomitus Crusade meets with triumph after triumph.
Day by day, we tear Imperium Nihilus from the Despoiler's grip.
And though we are beset on all sides, with each battle we drive back the mutant, the heretic, THE ALIEN.
As I speak these words, our forces engage the remnants of Leviathan.
Reclaiming lost worlds, atoning for old shames.
A crusade to cleanse the stars.
Taking the fight to the enemy.
We routed the Tyranids at Baal.
We broke their hive fleet.
Soon, their foulness will be but a memory.
THAT is what the preachers say.
Belief will not save us.
Lies will not protect us.
But it is our hope that will damn us.
In the spires and the slums, our people sing of victory.
Victory, as the galaxy burns.
Victory, as the Imperium rots around us.
Victory, as humanity rages against the dying of the light.
Victory...
- Roboute Guilliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium, Primarch of the Ultramarines, and Son of the God Emperor.
Reddit-tier
Robot gorillaman
@@screwstatists7324cope
40k empire exists in a strange point between expansion, peak and decline. It constantly loses and gains new worlds, creates new armies and has older armies wiped out.
As for the control it has over worlds it consists of - fortress worlds, forge worlds, a lot of hive worlds are under quite oppressive control, but agri worlds, feudal worlds and feudal ones have imperial authority deep in their background. At the same time even the oppressive control isn't enough to root out Chaos and/or Genestealer influences or even organise crime. Some worlds try to remove "problematic" parts of their populace by inducting them into units of Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum, that get send out into wider galaxy, only to find out that empire authorities need exactly that kind of fighters so planetary rulers almost need to keep their worlds in the same circumstances, that produce "troublemakers" among peoples they govern over.
Imperium is in decline. Its peak was a short time between Great Klinsing (misspeled on purpose ) and rise of Gog Vandir.
@ДАРТАНЬЯН-з2щ Perhaps you're right. Perhaps Girlyman and Lyonel (misspelled on purpose) are only making the last great push before fall of darkness.
Or it will continue in the same state of undead/unliving as Emperor.
@PobortzaPl to survive Imperium needs to enter in period if relative peace/abscense of ourside threats and have a skilled leader to throughly reform its institutions. Both of this is problematic.
@ДАРТАНЬЯН-з2щ Amen to that.
Since the Cicatrix Maledictum, the Imperium is on the decline
It was not God Emperor Leto's death, but his millennia of life which was his ultimate sacrifice for humanity.
42:45 Is he in control though? For most of the 10k years its existed High Lords have more or less run the IoM uncontested.
I'd say no since according to Lore only nine or so people have spoken to him in the flesh since the Hersey
He's still in control of the astronomicon. He rules through being the only person capable of maintaining ftl, without him, they are dead.
@@velstadtvonausterlitz2338.
Does he set tax or religious policy?
The Emperor is de jure the master of mankind, but in reality power lay with the high 12 for 10 millenia.
@@Wildgamer2205 Assuming, of course, that it is in fact the Emperor who controls the Astronomican and not some sort of gestalt entity of the untold number of Psykers who have been sacrificed to keep the Golden Throne operational. The Imperium's fear of learning new things means we may never know for sure.
Yes, because despite his current circumstances he is still the Emperor of all Mankind. Even if the humans don’t want to obey him, all he has to do is sick the Custodes on them for an hour and they’ll be back to whistling Dixie.
The Machine Empire from the underrated vintage anime, Galaxy Express 999. They were involved in the countless destruction of multiple species throughout the galaxy, using their bodies as fuel for their robotic bodies, nothing could stop the machines. Or so it seemed, their decline was officially set in motion, when they overestimated themselves and downplayed the will and fighting spirit of humanity and the various species in the universe.
Just a note that the robots in Asimov's world did not bypass their 3 laws to rise up. The war was between humans only. Robots were watching over and helping humanity for a better future.
One could argue that the Imperium of Man has been in a slow decline ever since the Horus Heresy. Another way to look at it, it matured, but in a completely different way than intended by the Emperor, and then began to decline.
My argument is that the Great Crusade itself was the point where the Imperium was well and truly doomed.
From what I have gathered, it's most likely that the Emperor took advantage of the chaos of the Long Night to seize control of Terra and reform the government into a dictatorship in his image, and direct his citizens' fear and anger at their alien allies, and then to any dissenters. Everything that plagues the Imperium today came out of the Crusade.
It’s on the decline because of the outside threats and because the Imperium relies on the Emperor to stay on the Golden Throne to protect humanity from Chaos spilling into the material galaxy. Without the Emperor humanity would definitely be destroyed!
Asimov's robots did not rise up, they took themselves out of human society for the most part, guided and helped humanity, also the God Emperor Leto 2 engineered his own demise over his 3000+ year reign.
Amazing second video. Hope to see more theory craft around scifi topics like this. Maybe do a logistics focused video next?
The imperium will win. It's the only one who is actually doing the necessary math to justify their numbers unlike the other 3.
this channel deserves at least 10k subs. For the record I'm subscibing while he has under 1k subs.
Great video! Enjoyed the back ground of the empires you covered and their structure. You highlighted some very important points as to how they govern their populations.
Which Galactic Empire do you find most interesting?
Muad'dib empire
@@AbdoAbdo-gl8vx Yesss 🤲🤲👍💯
Imperium of Man
One thing is for sure, which was the shortest 😂 good work sheev
There is definitive lack of Romulan Star Empire.
The Emperium of man may fall (that is if Games Workshop does not fiat writing). The biggest threat in the long run may be the Tau empire. The reason is it has an alternative to offer. You point out the emperium is bad but it better than the Tyrnads eating you. But rhe humans taken by the Tau will notice an improvement in standards of living. The "this is the only way" montra will not work on this one. Now the Tau may not be the goodguys; however, the choice is be under a tyrannical system that neglects you or a tyrannical system that at least feeds you. It comes down to paradigms competing for the harts of the population.
Really good point!
I am pretty sure tau also sterilize humans as well who join their empire.
Imperium Of Man. Also, as Guilliman has returned, I don't see this being a huge long-term issue. If nothing else expanded Ultramar around there borders. I guess you got to learn to like blue though.
Exactly very good point and with the split in the IoM, chaos and other xenos have an easier time to attack and conquer. Imo the IoMay not fall entirely but it definitely would (and should writing wise) become weaker on basis of s planets that are ruled!
Its kind of infuriating how the Gue´vesa dont really get more development. The Tau run the risk of being genuinely interesting.
Good video.
I think the construction of the second empire in foundation is the most interesting part of the series, displaying how a society changes and adapts, splinters and comes together.
Yet huge upsets of the current order (for example the Mule) can eventually, by the power of momentum, be folded back into the existing structures.
It reminds me of the Iranian/Persian empires and the Chinese dynasties, where the ruling classes changed yet large portions of the administration remained throughout the ages.
One thing I always miss when space empires are discussed is just the pure logistics of it.
Foundation had some good discussion, inspired by Rome iirc., that if the empire wanted to quell uprisings in the periphery, they needed to give the general in command of the expedition a great deal of autonomy, a lot of resources and a huge armada.
And if they succeeded, now the general had a powerbase, and enough resources to - if not challenge the empire outright - pose a large threat to the core worlds.
And even if they weren't going for the throne, there was nothing stopping them from continuing on, an issue faced by Rome and the Mongols, stretching the empire thinner, increasing the time it took for messages to reach the furthest corners, and as such increasing the autonomy of the outer provinces.
Glad you enjoyed the video and great points on Foundation. I agree, just the sheer expanse of a galactic empire would render it infeasible as exemplified by Asimov's Trantor. Even with FTL travel the logistics, like you said would be a nightmare
The problem with fall of the Rome is that it didn't fall. For some reason popular discourse completely ignore massive changes Rome actually faced. Threat was inside, not the outside. Most people in Rome cheered change and preferred rule of Germanic Tribes, who actually were part of Roman administration.
@@TheRezroWhat you are saying is that the Western Roman Empire wasn’t taken from foreign Germanic incursions.
Instead it was dissolved by internal competition between the Latin and Latinised peoples of the empire who following the decentralisation of the west, competed with each other to reestablish order, but failed and instead became the various Romance cultures of Western Europe.
If that’s true then the Roman Empire is still alive today in the forms of Spain, Portugal, France and Italy, just as it survived in east in the form of the Byzantine Empire. That would be a very unique way to view history.
However my question is weren’t the Foederatti independent and thus different states from Rome?
@@teyrncousland7152 1) No. That was already a thing from 3'th century. Germanic conquest didn't happen. It was a internal desolation.
2) More Latins and Greeks. Germans actually bring solutions what did work in long run. Contrary to myth medieval states were more developed then ancient Rome. Byzantine start ignoring them fearing internal takeover.
3) Franks (Galia) were literally a Roman province. Claim to contrary was product of Engagement Nationalism.
4) The Tribes were independent as organizations. But from edict of Caracalla every free man in the Empire was a citizen. By 6'th century, Germans were heavily integrated in West Rome structures (many Germans were Magister Militum), same as by by 18'th century Latin was administrative language or Germany and even Poland.
Womderful video with a great narrator! You have a relaxing voice man, listened to this on the way to work! You got me subscribed!
21:38 An historical inaccuracy. It was not the storm troopers in interwar Germany that carried out oppression and caused fear into the population. That was Hitler’s Brown Shirts and later the SS and Gestapo. The storm troopers were a strike force to find and break through weaker lines in an enemy’s defenses and get deep behind enemy lines.
@Noone-zf6ps Except your "correction" is incorrect.
The SA were deliberately named "Storm Troopers" to invoke the popular image of those ww1 units you mentioned.
The Imperium has not, will not and cannot fall whilst HE still sits upon the Golden Throne upon Terra.
Ave Imperator, Gloria en excelsis Terra!
That's an interesting video to do gotta reward by watching
Very cool and insightful video
This channel is awesome.
I swear if this video essay doesn't mention the Goldenbaum empire I'll riot. Kircheis did not die for this, Reinhardt Von Lohengramm would never stand for this.
Never heard of it
@anon2427 it's an obscure 80's anime but it would be quite relevant to this conversation as the whole show is framed as history chronicles relating the great war between the Goldenbaum Empire and the Free planets federation. It is constantly concerned about empire building and space politics and... it is really good, all 110 episodes of it.
What a gem. Thank you.
Eh in the imperium's case its reconquer the galaxy before the age of strife humanity had already established an empire spanning the galaxy
That’s speculation there’s other info that states there was a human federation but it wasn’t spanning the entire galaxy, they only have colonies in certain areas. Because around that time the Eldar were the main power in the galaxy not humans! (Some aspects of 40k history is muddled)
Great video! Also, your voice sounds super familiar. Are you also a narrator for the Lorebrarians?
Thank you and a you have a great ear! I run the Lorebrarians, but this is my second channel (a little passion project) more for discussing the philosophy and literary merit of different fictional universes. Haven't yet done any promotion for it on The Lorebrarians. Hope you enjoy that content too
@@QuillnConsole i LOVE the lorebrarians channel. Your soothing voice and storytelling are one of my favorite ways to unwind
I randomly foubd this video after several viewings of the Dreadnaught vs Helldrake scene from Space Marine 2🤣 Glad i did. Great video. My favorite empire is the Achaemenid Persian Empire. Respect from Nigeria
I find the entire concept of such a huge polity being an empire, a monarchy, very hard to swallow. There are just too many people, too many places for it to be manageable by a single person and his cadre of authoritarian advisors. Especially since these examples have chosen to basically outlaw any possible technological assistance that might've eased the decision making processes in these governments.
It's as believable as a "world kingdom" on Earth.
Idk about the other empire but The Imperium of Man basically rule itself no need for a king or God Emperor, though it would help. The entire thing is bound together by blood,, sweat, faith, cum and duct tape as the central bureaucratic body can't actually handle all the admin work and basically every part of the empire get to do whatever it wants as long as they pay taxes on time
My thoughts exactly. A galaxy spanning civilization would be very, VERY decentralized. A single planet could have a king/emperor, while others would have different forms of government
@@LeolaTheElfI mean that’s literally how it is in Star Wars, individual planets have their own governments
@@AlexanderSwan-f2d true. It’s just that the Empire/Republic have a big navy and army to keep them under control.
in star wars galactic empire, you had a governor ruling a planet, a governor for a sector, a grand moff who ruled multiple sectors, all who obeyed the emperor,, so it was broken down for each level, the higher you got the more power a individual had over the majority
Gold.
Keep it up.
Interesting video however, you should've included the mouse utopia because I firmly believe that it is interrelated with the life cycle of all empires and great civilizations. The mouse utopia experiment has shown us that predator filled environments lead to higher birthrates in mice. Predator free environments lead to lower and eventually zero birth rates in mice. I believe that this same phenomenon applies to human populations. We have just about conquered famine, war, disease and death. What I mean by conquering death is that through medical advances we have extended the human life span. Increase the survivability of both mother and child during birth. We have eradicated polio and smallpox to the point that inoculation is no longer required. I think fictional examples of what I'm talking about are Vulcans of the Star Trek universe and the isolationist Kryptonians from Man of Steel. I'm talking about two different highly advanced civilizations, one that has eliminated all of the banes of their existence and one who created a paradise forcing them to use artificial methods for birthing children. What I'm trying to say is that a harsh environment is what lead to higher birth rates which will lead to expansionism.
Lore of The Rise and Fall of Galactic Empires momentum 100
Are you the same guy from lorebrarians?
Interestingly enough, Hitler said that he did not want total victory in the east. He preferred if there were Russian partisans fighting, for years and years. That way, the German people would be kept strong.
Why not the Draka?
awesome ty
The claim that a feudal system like Dune’s is more oppressive than a totalitarian state like the Galactic Empire of Star Wars is indefensible. Feudalism encourages the decentralization of authority and the maintenance of local traditions and communities. Totalitarianism imposes itself into the daily life of the citizenry to ensure the state, as a centralized institution, is in complete control. A feudal peasant may be utterly subservient to his liege lord, but that is a personal relationship mediated by mutual obligations. The citizen of a totalitarian state, by contrast, is effectively the property of a vast institution which has no real understanding of or care for their individual well being.
Any thoughts on startrek visavis this discussion? Romulan star Empire, Klingon Empire, Borg? Dominion?
I don't think the Romulans are have the ethnic diversity and multiculturalism to truly be an Empire, The Dominion are however a great example. Especially when we look at how the Jem'Hadar and Vor'ta were shaped for specific branches of the regime
when you say "western history" you mean like Europe and North America? Not just Western Europe and North America (aka mostly NATO countries)?
If you do a part 2, you should talk about the empire in firefly/serenity
I knew I recognized the voice! I'm a lorebrarians sunscriber.
If they just ditched Platonism, they could’ve had a chance at surviving.
Reformed theology and Thomism
@@screwstatists7324 Objectivism preferably, and the lack of it, just like the real world, is why these sci fi universes are stagnant.
The Imperium fell?
Nah, the imperium is still in the process of falling. Everybody around be twitchy about where the corpse will land because thats gonna be new asstown. Nobody want to be in new asstown. Its ass.
Is falling, has been falling since at least the Horus Rebellion, and arguably was doomed to fail from the beginning. Psychic supermen from the Bronze Age are only a slightly more stable basis of government than strange women lying around in ponds. Add into that almost everything the Emperor did to improve humanity inevitably doing the opposite, and the Imperium was never going to last.
I mean it’s a fraction of its power and influence. It has completely thrown out its original views concepts and beliefs. Idk how you could call it anything but fallen in all but name. Sure the astartes are still there but even an astartes from current 40k would sound crazy in 30k.
I understand that this is a summary, but calling 40k's Wrap travel "safe" or "precise" is blatantly untrue.
Wrap travel relies on your navigator being able to see the light of the Emperor, a force field around your ship that no one has understood in over 10 millennia not failing, and time staying stable enough that you don't spend subjective centuries to travel a couple of light years.
Even then, you might emerge in the wrong system, or decades earlier or later than you departed.
Naw the reason why the imperium is still around is plot armor. No imperium, no space marine models to sell.
Eyyyyyy twilight imperium callout
With all this examples it raises the question on what kind of future does mankind have?
It appears that any level of development and advancement (just like Earth (needs a better name😒)) Empires are needed to create the foundations and frame work needed for greater civilizations or nations to rise from.
Side Note - all these comparisons really shows how terrible and selfish the rebels/Terrorists from Star Wars were, upset with a more restrictive regime over a corrupted system while other empires are far worse.
You're the guy that does mtg lore on another channel right? Recognize your voice. Subed.
4:09 tbf I'd argue that rome does not follow this rule. Remus and Romulus were theives and murderers who founded an unnoteable city. This is even within their own legendarium.
That was the foundation of the CITY, not the empire. The foundation of the Roman empire occurs in the Pyrrhic Wars and the civil wars of Julius and Augustus, which were very emotional, epic, and legendary.
@beepbop6542 I guess that could be argued that way. That would bring into question when an empire is born. If it requires an epic moment, then this would be a self-fulfilling axiome. I'd argue that the beginning of Imperial Rome began with the senate. That wasn't all that epic. Alternatively, it could be argued that the empire began when it first claimed territory. I see your point but I'm not sure it requires epicness.
Although I personally adhere to the lore of the Dune Encyclopedia, I respect of framing of the competitive interpretation of the lore.
18:38 Yeah, senate was hollow mockery... roughly for 20 000 years.😅
Galactic Empire's senate represented citizens more than Old Republic's, New Republic's & Galactic Alliance's combined.
To understand what did all senates beside empire's one: most of the times when some powerful subject tried to enslave, eat (straight forward eat, use citizens as food) or subjugate other less powerful subject and less powerful went to the senate for help, senate deployed jedi & other forces to help the agressor, the strong one, to destroy the weak and after that put all the blame on a weak one calling it agressor.
Empire's senate on the other hand didn't do this, because it had not enough authority to do such things.
stellarus run: yes, everybody around weirdly declined. Weird.
Great video mate!! Really enjoyed it and will subscribe for future videos but I have to dislike it mate. No mention of the Spanish empire at 0:24? Wow, sorry but Im not falling into this anglo-saxon propaganda
>mentions the mongols
>mentions rome
IT'S PROPAGANDA BECAUSE MY EMPIRE WASN'T MENTIONED!!!!1!1!!
I would only used the Expanded Universe canon Galactic Empire as an example. The Disney Star Wars Galactic Empire sucks and isn't canon to me.
You mean sequels
@@ciaranReal
All of it. Even Rebels does some stupid stuff especially how they undermined Thrawn. EU Thrawn was far better.
seeing Maturation part, it seems Star Wars Empire and Foundation Empire is a nice place to live.
No Hyperion...
Bit by bit did the leader of Hungary change the govt and ended democracy.
cool
Empire is the empire of Foundation unless I misunderstood Foundation.
What?
Super organisms are eternal
753rd sub
I do think its fun that you draw a distinction between Herberts Empires and 40k when the 40k creators just filed the serial numbers off Herberts universe and just gave everyone huge shoulder pads
It's quite different. The only real similarities are space travel controlled by psychics and the immortal emperor who hates his job. But even there, Herbert's emperor rejects his humanity in order to lead it, with a strictly oppressive and centralized government, while the 40k emepror is the pinnacle human specimen, but has little authority over his scattered empire after his injuries in the Horus heresy.
@beepbop6542 lol no. The sardaukar are literally the inspiration for the astartes. I just cant deal with illiterate people who think things need to be a 1:1 copy to count. Foh
@@BradyRamakerThe way Dune cheerleaders try this same, tired routine on literally every property that even slightly mimics or resembles their pet IP is as hilarious as it is pathetic and predictable.
@papapalps2415 40k "resembles" Dune the same way Diet Coke resembles regular
@@BradyRamaker -So infinitely superior and contains far less damaging elements?- This isn't really true, no. 40k has virtually zero meaningful resemblance to Dune, past surface-level elements, especially in its modern iteration.
Why don't you subscribe?
Wait, you guys actually think about the roman empire? Fuck are they all you learned in history? Wth?
21:36 Nazi regime. Fashism is different ideology.
3:49 no…
"How often do you think about the roman empire?"
I do everything I can not to, so as to not cringe myself to death.
Dune is a shitty and boring novel/story. Didnt find it interesting at all