Hahahaha, I know that story. I'd like to be more of an audiophile but the hearing damage from 17 years in the military means that speed, staging, and power mean more than outright accuracy.
I know what you're talking about! It's like everything I listen to, I'm listening to it behind Penderecki's Threnody, and trying to pick out the parts that are not Threnody. That being said, I don't think more power necessarily does the trick - speaker/listener positioning, EQ, etc seem to matter a lot. It certainly gets more complicated when dealing with hearing impairments like this.
More power doesn't always equate to needing to play at louder volumes. It has to do with keeping the amplifier in its linearity range for the best quality of sound and a better dynamic presentation.
@@tugboatamerica This just shows you how these "audiophiles" can't even comprehend the basic knowledge in audio systems...they believe in $10k cables but they don't understand why low sensitive speakers need 100W just because they can play equally loud with 30W
Anyone agreeing to your comment didn't even listen to what Steve had to say. I run my Maggies off of 2x 18W mono amps and they sound great. Unless you push the volume further than "reasonably loud", which I rarely ever do. The sound is very controlled, they really shine until the average output is about 2W/channel. More than enough - I prefer to preserve my ears over showing off a set of 300W amps to my neighbours. PS: No $10K cables here, either ;)
That threshold where quality degrades happens at really loud volumes when using a good 100 watts amplifier, regular sized residential rooms. Probably way above the levels enthusiasts listen to in their medium sized rooms and speakers.
@@4nz-nl Extreme views on EITHER side of the power divide are just plain wrong. Your system lacks headroom for anything but the most evenly amplitude distributed music. Add ANY real dynamic range and your theories die an ignominious death. I'm an audio engineer for more than 45 years....
In studio work, a common rule of thumb is to adjust monitors to a reference level of 80 dBs at -20dBFS. (0dBFS being the peak output for digital recording.) 30Wrms would have an equivalent output of 42.45Wpk given a crest factor of sqrt(2) for a sinusoidal test signal. This would ensure that at peak output of a normalized mastered CD won’t clip the output of the amplifier. To ensure this the -20dB level would be 0.3dB. For the 85dB rated speaker, the output would be slightly less than 80dBs. Assuming a listening distance of 2 meters, the level would be 74dBs. Both channels driven you get 77 dBs at reference level with 100 dBs peak. Seems like respectable levels @ 30Wrms. If the amp has marginal output, it will clip if pushed any harder. Modern pop and rock recordings are often mixed hot with significant compression which can make the 30 watter sound much ballsier.
Having built amp for about 20 years, I have found that generally a lower power amp with a decent power supply will driving almost any speakers. A high wattage one with a smaller transformer and less supply caps will struggle. It's all about have enough ommph for the transient peaks. It's not about continuous rating when it come to audiophile reproduction
You're confusing more power with better quality amps. Often, better quality amps also have more power, but that doesn't have to be the case. It's like thinking more expensive food and drinks are automatically "better". Good quality water is both better and cheaper for you than expensive beer.
@@4nz-nl no I am not everything being equal more power is always better. There is no problem getting pretty much the same power amps with almost identical build inside(even same components) and still have the more powerful one sound better. It seems you have forgotten about the magic thing called headroo, especially for transients.
@@kautkascitadaks You're trying to school me here, but forgot to think of the fact that if those two amps have the same limited power supply, at the same power output one does not have more headroom than the other. Rated power output is just a rating, it's nothing magical. Also, if the amps are entirely equal with the same SNR, depending on the design the more powerful one will actually sound worse.
@kautkascitadaks I have ver efficient speaker which can be powered by just a couple of watts but I understand watt you are saying. I find the dynamics better at low volumes better with more power. The top end didn't seem any different, but at lower volumes 100%
Around 1974, I had a Marantz 4140 quad pre-amp/amp rated 70 watts per channel RMS at 8 ohms for stereo, and 25 watts per channel at 8 ohms driving four channels. I never played the specs game, considering it an open pit of some sort. However, it had four meters which look two meters extra cool. Being a primitive sort, I rarely looked at them other than to make certain they were moving. I used it with four JBL L100's, which were at the time considered relatively 'efficient' compared with the other top-selling bookshelf speakers of the day. I tried it at the stereo setting , and could tell the difference, but it sounded great to me driving all four channels, and that's the way I used it. And I used it pretty loud. Instead of putting money into two basic stereo amps to get more power, I put it into a TEAC four-channel open-reel deck. Yes, 'consumer' level stuff, but life is a series of priorities.....
Just for those that don't know, doubling the amplifier power WILL NOT make your speakers play TWICE as loud. You would need an amplifier that is 10X as powerful to do that.
@@matthewarendt4416 How do you know most people don't know that? Did you take a survey? It also depends what you mean by double. Here is an example. Suppose you had a mono source of pink noise and you played it thru 1 speaker only for a reference volume level. Next play it thru both speakers (a matched set). Who is to say if that is twice as loud or not? It depends on the person's perception. Suppose someone DID say that is now twice as loud (cuz 2 speakers are playing). So then, going back to 1 speaker at say 1 watt of pink noise, increasing that speaker to 2 watts WOULD double the volume to the same person that said 2 speakers sound twice as loud as 1. Also, what if your SPL is 3dB (in a VERY quiet room) and you double the power? Will it be 6dB SPL now? How is that not doubling the SPL? Define your terms. "Double" is vague the way you refer to it.
I love the arguments at my club meetings. My amp is bigger than yours, Mine runs in class A, Mine are Monoblocks, My wife is a supermodel. Argument over!
@@MrStingraybernard - McIntosh is on the affordable side of audiophile. I bought a couple pieces of Mac that were gently used. And according to Audiogon they’re worth just about what I paid for them eight years ago.
This is one of the most interesting posts that I have heard in quite some time . I know for a fact that my triode wired EL 34 amp at 23.5 watts per channel has far outplayed 300 watt per channel amps . The authority ,cone control and musicality that it has really shows that the numbers are just numbers !
Fully agree with this, my VU’s pointing to 2 watt for 802D3’s and it gets pretty loud for a living room. A Primaluna with 35watt/ch. is driving the big speakers with ease... you need a good amp and you are good... look at Accuphase class A Amp, with 30 W into 8 Ohm...
Everything you have said is absolutely true!!! I used to own a old pioneer receiver that had those analog needle for power output ( coolest thing ), and when I played loud, 2 watts was very normal. Now, with that said, i did hit 5 and 10 watts quite often. When the bass notes kicked in, that's where the power meter went nuts. Low frequency uses ( and requires ) a lot of power ( below 200khz ). When watching movies on your home theater, most don't realize they are only pushing about 20-30 watts through there mains/center when the action gets going. The sub on the other hand is really sucking those watts down ( explosions/ car crashes/etc ). One of the main reasons to have a "sub out" on your receiver is to take the stress off the the amp inside so that it can dedicate power to your mains/center/surround/etc. A powered subwoofer is a must for any home theater. With all that said, power headroom ( also known as dynamic headroom ) is your friend. The more headroom, the better.Also, the more watts the amp is able to pump out, the better. Reason? To save your speaker investment. Yes. To save your speakers. When you run to much power through your speakers, it takes much longer to damage them. If you push your amp to hard, you get whats called distortion, and this will ruin your speakers faster that anything. Distortion is not a linear signal ( smooth control of harmonics/frequency ), and so power increases rapidly when that linear signal becomes unstable ( not enough power for a multitude of reasons ). Distortion can usually be heard at around 10% ( 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD) , but some people are able to hear it at 1%. If you hear distortion, back off or you WILL damage your speakers. I damaged a set of car speakers with a clock radio back in the 80's. These car speakers were rated at 65 watts RMS, and 100 peak. I cracked them with a clock radio ( all because of distortion ). That clock radio maybe knocked out .2-.3 watt of power ( not even half a watt ), and I damaged a set of brand new car speakers.
I love power and am a big proponent of it, I am a live sound engineer/audiophile, even at home, my smallest stereo amp puts out approximately 80 Watts per channel.I am more into the right amount of power not just astronomically huge amounts of power. I like the "ease" that comes with having more power which keeps the amount of distortion vanishingly small.That in turn allows for better revelation of fine details (I find) because the amplifier is not working hard and therefore has a lot more reserve current available without strain which leads to better ,smoother, more articulate. sound in my opinion, but I get why you say what you are saying, and I agree that we don't always need lots of power, we just need a reasonable amount of good, clean power.
I also learned that clutter helps with sound acoustics haha I used to leave my listening room impeccable, and I noticed that famous slap echo returned. So I put stuff back in the room. Its not crazy messy, but just enough to stop it.
Its depends ! First the Amp needs to match the Speakers. Like you said Efficient Speakers sound good at a lower power than heavy load speakers. My speaker cables (I thought they were decent oxygen free wire) got oxidized green from one end to the other. I do live about 3 miles from the beach . That added about 2 ohms over the 15' of wire. Yes it did make a noticeable difference in volume per watt input. Mostly at the low volume, both highs and lows sounded better with new wire that I made sure was melted then coated with liquid tape, to ensure it did't happen again.
I tried three different 50 watt per channel receivers (all used from Ebay) and a couple of them sounded okay with pioneer andrew jones tower speakers. Then I got a used yamaha AV-50 amplifier for $74 (vintage 1988). Took the cover off and cleaned the pots with DEOXIT. The 30 year old AV-50 is rated 105 wpc @ 8 ohms. The pioneer speakers are rated 6 ohms and sound great with this amp. The very noticeable increase in power over the 50 watt receivers makes an enormous improvement in sound quality and listening enjoyment (rock/electronic music). My rule would be, at least when you're using budget equipment, you will be happier with decent speakers and 100 watts per channel.
Hey Steve. Love the show. My son has a pair of Kef Q100 bookshelf speakers being powered with a Yamaha RS300 stereo amp and as you know the Kefs are rated 86 db sensitivity and the Yamaha is only 50 watts/channel, so they sound pretty good but when I hooked the Q 100s up to my rotel rc1590 pre amp and rb1582mkii power amp they totally transformed. The soundstage got wider and the clarity was 100 times better than the Yamaha. The overall volume was a lot louder and the drivers barely moved. So to your point, yes the lower wattage can be sufficient to create good sound at a decent volume level but the more power you give them I feel the more you will get out of the speaker 10 fold.
I once saw in one of those audio shows a 5W tube mono each powering huge floor standing speakers and I was surprised how good the sound was... no strain at all. Granted they’re not playing at concert level volume but most of us don’t have concert-size listening rooms anyway in our homes.
You are right. A good 25W to 30W amp is more than capable of driving speakers to a reasonable listenij level, in an average listening room, prividi it has a decent current reserve, or dynamics will suffer. But the more power the amp has at it’s disposal, the better control it’ll have over the speakers, particularly low frequency. You did say you could notice a differs with you more powerful amp. Interestingly, I have a 135W amp driving a 91DB 8ohm large pair of floor standers. My wife has a 25W amp driving a pair of 90DB 4ohm bookshelf speakers. We live in a ground floor apartment. Our only neighbours live on the floor above us. They’ve never complained about the volume of my music, but, on the odd occasion have complained about the volume of my wife’s music. I’m guessing that my more powerful system, does not need to be overly loud in order to produce good, full range, tonality!
I have a Sansui A-40 with 25 watts into 8 ohms... and it sounds amazing... so clean sound, speakers are Crysler LivingAudio CE700... it's only 25 watts but so big sound... :)
My old 2x25W Pioneer has never failed or clipped. Power meters show usually max 2x3W/8 ohms. These days I use it as a phono pre-amp and Denon 7.1 AVR for modern inputs/sources. It sounds the same when using direct stereo mode.
The advantage of a high power, high quality amp was demonstrated by Bell Labs many decades ago. When less of the total power output is used to attain the desired SPL the amount of distortion from the amplifier also decreased.
Oh, I went crazy too. In my late teens and early 20's I wanted more power. In the end, I had a massive Onkyo M504 165wpc power amplifier with a Cerwin Vega subwoofer and two custom bookshelf speakers I made myself. All in an 8 by 11 bedroom. Yeah....overkill. However, I got the Onkyo for nothing and just had to fix it and I loved the big green analog power meters it had on it...very much like the huge blue meters on the McIntosh amps. But I had noticed that when I was playing the amp, the meters never swung high up on the scale and I had to put it on the reduced range to get some nice swing on them. I would say that what Steve was saying above is correct. Even though I liked my music on the louder side, I RARELY hit 40 to 60 watt peaks and for 'normal' listening, it hovered more around 20 watts. So while I think a 30wpc amp would have been small for that system. I would have been fine with a 50wpc amp easily. There was no way I needed the insane power of the M504 in a bedroom. I mainly kept it for many years because I liked the huge meters, but in a fairly recent move, I finally decided to part with it. The thing was a beast too and weighed about 50 lbs. Nowadays, I am looking into what can be done with lower powered amplifiers and higher efficiency speakers as I don't want a huge rack of equipment anymore. What Steve didn't mention above, is that a key figure in matching an amplifier to speakers is the SPL or 1w/1m rating on a speaker. For every 3db increase in a speaker system's efficiency you need only half the power to get it to the same volume. So for example, with his 86db speakers, if you go to an 89db speaker, you half the power, so a 15 watt amplifier on the 89db speaker will have the same output as 30watts going to the 86 db speaker. So you could imagine how loud something with the efficiency of a Klipschorn (105db 1w/1m) would sound with only a couple watts of power. BUT the Klipschorn is a VERY huge and VERY expensive cabinet. But still, the idea that a speaker like the Klipschorn could easily rip you a new one with only 5 watts of power, is mind blowing. So if you want to get fairly loud with low powered amplifiers, do take the efficiency into consideration. Try to get it above 90...better yet, over 93.
@@lonelycake4114 Depends on what you use the speakers for. If you're planning to use those 400 watts, you will need an amp stable at a multitude of that. But will you?
My experience with watts shows that most watts are consumed with music having 20-70 Hz frequences at full amplitude. If anyone use bookshelf speakers that intentionally not reproduce 20-70 range so that speakers have fast drop of SPL in this range they probably don't need more than 2x35 watts. But for full range 20Hz-20kHz floorstanding speakers (natural or EQ/DSP corrected) rated 500+W they need at least 2x200W amplifier to have dense low bass. In some audio fragments it yields mentioned 20W, for other parts floorstanding speakers can easily take 200W to produce low bass parts. If floorstanding speakers are powered with 35W amp, they will just silently move bass heads with no sound at all.
It seems that the power required depends on the type of music played. I have a 150 per channel (250 into 4 ohms) driving Martin Logan SL3s. My system runs off a 300 watt power (continuous) regenerator which allows peak draws of 900 watts. The speaker sensitivity is 88dB, which I run at about 75dB. One might think that 1 watt might be good enough. The power regenerator shows a green light when below 300 watt draw, but goes red when higher than this. With a lot of music that I listen to, the light stays green. However, with a lot of bass, the woofer is made to work a lot, and this is when the red light stays on. It seems that moving a 10 inch woofer using a large magnet does require a lot of power. While the woofer would still work when it can't draw the power it needs, it is probably not working to its full potential if it is being starved of power. I guess that this is why a fair number of active subwoofers have 500 or 1000 watt internal power amps.
I think you are correct I have a 50 watt Marantz slimline receiver. I’m using Definitive Technology Mythos St for my front and rear speakers. I have never had a problem with with volume. It’s always great for me. The sensitivity of my speakers is 93db. My receiver never gets hot. I had a Dennon 125 watt receiver and that thing got so hot you could burn your hand on it. I figure there must have been something wrong with it. I sold it and bought the Marantz. I have had the Marantz for about two years and it never gets hot. It works perfectly. I was afraid when I bought it it would not get loud enough. It’s gets very loud. I have come to the conclusion that for my size room and the fact that my speakers sensitivity is 93db that 50 watts is plenty. I have a Sp meter and some times I use it to check how loud it is. I usually don’t go beyond 90 db but it does 90 db with out breaking a sweat. I don’t want it any louder then that. I think Marantz is a good company and they don’t lie about their specifications. I just subscribed to your channel.
-- Go in large room otherwise silent. Scream. Then speak. Which can be heard? Both. Which can be understood? Speaking, but also screaming yet in a very different way.
My 50 wpc amp drives my LS50 easily in my medium size listening room. It is the Emotiva Basx a-100. The watts rating gives an idea of the amp's driving ability. What is seldom specified is the power supply's stability when overdriven.
I am using a vintage 35-watt Pioneer SX-650 to drive my PSB 800's. I got it for 20$ at a garage sale, works perfect, but I imagine it could use a good cleaning and re-capped. This is a receiver I seriously wanted when it was new, was thrilled to find one locally. I had it stored away, but I spilled water into my current amp and killed it, so it was nice to have a backup. This little guy has more than enough power to run my PSB's which have 90db sensitivity
Bret Spangler Good deal you got there but Pioneer is not an Audiophile company. They are not even mid-fi. But if $20 is all you have I think you hit gold. Vintage isn't always good. The preamp section in any Pioneer would never please me. No detail in the bottom end at low levels. And the typical tissy top end most Japanese receivers/amps have. What a lot of people think is the sound of a crash or high hat cymbal isn't - it's high frequency distortion. We don't hear it as distortion though. It's there on most mid-fi: headphone amps circuits, preamps, and especially in the cheap-o out put stages of Japanese CD players. If you have a good CD player / DAC and you have at any time used an audiophile headphone amp (like the Grado R-1) then you will know what I am referring to. The first time I plugged in my 555 into the Grado R-1 I wondered what happened to the top end. It sounded as if someone had turned down the treble. In fact the high frequency distortion is so low in reference headphone amps that it presents the illusion of the treble being turned down when in fact you are hearing the real sound of cymbals. I kept upgrading and moving up the audiophile ladder and then....OH NO!!! I ran out of money/luck. When components broke down I had to replace them with mid-fi Japanese stuff. Going from a Nad intergrated amplifier to an Onkyo receiver was a let down of grand proportions. No weight in the bottom and too bright. And much less detail. And the headphone amp was just passable.
Thank you for chipping in for low power, high quality amps! The only purpose for all that power is to rattle walls and tick off your neighbours, but it never adds to any joy of music for me. My vintage Superscope R-310 with its 5W/chan has BUMPED all other amps I tried off the shelf for 12 years now. The others, inlcuding NAD, McIntosh, Marantz, Technics, Toshiba, and others went back to the closet or to a dealer, the R-310 stayed. The only other one that lasted and is in the living room is my SAE-TWO R3C, which is a 30 W/chan piece. Both are no-fatigue, hear it all, musically enjoyable amps, that also deliver clarity and detail.
I have a Sony STR-ZA1000ES AV Receiver. Only has a 290W power supply. This is the best sounding AV Receiver I've owned. I've had Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Harmon Kardon. The Sony ES isn't lacking in power, doesn't have gimmicks, only the essentials. It just works. I use this to power 4 JBL 530's , 1 520C. Use a SVS SB12 NSD sub. Recently added Sony SSCSE height speakers. My AV Receiver has worked flwlessly for 3 years, use every day.
I've got 50W/channel Marantz into a pair of 89db/1WCanton floorstanding speakers. I sit about 8 feet from the pair. Put on Quadrophenia, for example. 1/2 volume is where I listen most of the time. Very comfortable and engaging. If I go to 3/4 volume, it sounds great, but I can tell that I'd be taking slow hearing damage if I listened at that level for extended periods of time on a regular basis. I used tom have a pair of mid-1970s Klipsch LaScalas driven by a humble 22 W/channel Marantz receiver. Speakers so efficient, something like 105db/1W, that In couldn't turn it up past 3/4 without pain in my ears, so I kept it much lower. They were too big for my living space back then, so I gave them away to a guy who loved music but had a thin wallet.
2 high-end amps of identical standard/grade. One is 40W RMS/channel. The other is 150W RMS/channel. Without blasting it loudly, I’d say the higher wattage one would sound snappier and more dynamic....with both amps powering the same 8ohm premium grade bookshelf speaker of 89db/watt sensitivity
I'm on the fence here, but I lean toward having more power rather than less. It is not just a question of playing the music loud, but of reproducing the dynamics without compression or distortion. If you want music to sound (more or less) "live," then it needs to be dynamic and effortless. Given that power demand scales up much faster than sound pressure level (Is it exponential or logarithmic? I forget.), it is easy to imagine something as simple as a kick drum strike pushing a low-powered amp into its distortion zone even at modest listening levels. A high-powered amp will have deeper reserves for those demanding transients. It's better to have and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Well, sorry but you are wrong. It is not about how much power a amp can deliver, it is all about HOW the amp is delivering the power! And that my friend, you cannot find in the technical specifications. But i know that there are many low watt amps out there, that truly outperform "bigger watts amps" from the well know names. Some speakers really come to life with those little gems.
@@deejeemadrox1866exactly, I am using a Jean Hiraga Le Monstre 8 watt amp, which is pure class A single ended. It's a DIY design, a 35lb beast and it sings with my Frugel Horns with Alpair 7p. I've also heard a Pass VFET DIY amp at a DIYer's place along with Salas DCB1 and Soekris.. the best amp I have heard till date... but it's just 18-20watts.
My old Marantz 1030 integrated amplifier only produces 15 watts RMS per channel, and drives my Wharfedale bookshelf speakers just fine. They won't shake the room, break windows, or crack plaster. But the sound is crystal clear, and pleasant. It's not all about power.
Even a low dynamic range format such as vinyl LP will need 60 dB of range from the Amp AND the speakers. So a speaker playing at 90 dB SPL at 1m with 1W will play 110dB (in the midband - typically at 1kHz and the system noise floor at 50 dB SPL at 1kHz) with 100W (if we don't count compression - such as soft bit and enclosure losses, voice coil heating, etc.) All full range single driver speakers and many/most audiophile speakers cannot reach full audio bandwidth, full dynamic range at reasonably low distortion at required power, having released their smoke reserves or dislocating their soft bits from their hard bits, before achieving this. If you are NOT in a NY apartment with neighbors (who have the police on speed-dial) and you wish to play down to 20 Hz (or even 40 Hz) at 110 dB at less than about 10% thd, then you will need way more Power than 100W with any realistically efficient speaker with sufficient Vd (Sd x X-max) and a speaker that is way bigger and more rugged than typical audiophile fare. Not that there is anything wrong with that.... some don't want realistic reproduction from their 'Hi-Fi' system: Some like to use their imagination with tiny homunculi Barbie dolls; and some prefer the real thing!
yoootoob1 Ahhh, 20hz. Most people have never actually heard it or should I say FELT it. The low B string on 5 String electric bass has a fundamental of 31hz. Most consumers who "talk about" low bass don't realize how low 31hz actually is. On even big full range Polk speakers for example they will bottom out slightly below 36 hz. You would be surprised at how many subwoofers crap out below 40 hz. A short story: A few years ago a high end (arrogant and expensive) subwoofer company was curious at how they stacked against the competition. So the owner/designer went to various audio shows throughout the Kingdom (bare with me guys. Please.) and listened to many subwoofer manufacturers that claimed their top of the line subwoofer was flat down to 17 hz. WTF?! (Head moving super fast left to right like in a Scooby Doo cartoon) 17 hz is not low bass....Nope.....It's INFRASONIC BASS and these frequencies played loudly can actually make you sick or even kill you...Much like my Aunt's cooking. Back to our story. He had brought along with him a CD full of church organ music with lots of bass pedal (super far left) action going down to 17hz. Assuming the engineer doesn't filter it out, the Compact disk can go down to 5 hz. Vinyl couldn't..Not even direct to disk. The lowest note on a big church pipe organ is E0 (16 hz) That is just the fundamental note. That same bass pedal (the last one) has lower harmonics reaching down to 10 hz (More cartoon headshaking) Back in the 80's I remember reading about a flagship subwoofer that was flat down to 10hz. Wow! Was it true?.... He visited many audio shows and listened to many subwoofers (really super expensive) that claimed they were flat down to 17hz. Not one them passed his CD organ test. And the company representatives came up with every excuse under the book: It's the room, the cables (Oh please!), the amp in the subwoofer needed heating up first.. I remember when I was a security guard (Nov 1988) and they were installing the sound system at The Fairview Mall Cinema (Toronto, Ontario) where I worked. The day they installed the subwoofer is a day burnt into my memory. No bass ports, no sneaky DSP circuitry, no built in Class D amps, no acoustic tricks or wild designs. The subwoofer they brought in WAS THE SIZE OF A HONDA ACCORD. A big ASS CAR SIZED PASSIVE sealed box with two front firing 18 inch woofers. I am pretty sure that abomination was flat down to 17hz.
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq while 99% of what you posted is absolute fact your thoughts on 20hz not being audible are simply not true ,20hz is well within the range of undamaged human hearing ,at my final hearing test mandated by my job ,before I retired ,I could hear down to 18hz and I was 55 years old at that time , and while not a peer reviewed study the TV show Myth Buster's did a segment on bass response below 20hz in an attempt to find the infamous " brown note " that people claim will make you shit your pants ,it's an interesting segment because they blasted that idiot with a ridiculously high SPL down to around 4hz ,they swept from 25hz down to 4 or 5 hz where it made his lips flap like a bulldog will it's head out the car window & he never shit himself ,or got sick ,now that I think about it I think they even went so far as to put his silly ass inside of a massive plexiglass sub box & blasted him ,I know it's some funny shit & well worth searching out & watching .
Here's my experience. I use a Yamaha AVR rated at 105wpc, all channels driven. It drives my Definitive Technologies very well although they do have a powered woofer. When I switched those with some Thiel 1.5s with a much lower sensitivity (around 86 I think), my AVR could not properly drive them. I was afraid of clipping the amplifiers trying to get a decent volume level out of the Thiels.
I own (but no longer use regularly) a Sugden A21a amp; pure class A, 25w/channel 8Ohms. It sounds fantastic, IF: you listen to the right music, through fairly efficient speakers. I used a pair of B&W CDM1 bookshelf-speakers and on acoustic music, chamber-classical, jazz, etc, it was a magical combo (I know; for the money!). For full-on opera or Deep Purple's Made in Japan (which cannot be listened to quietly!) not so much. I still own that amp and one day I will build a pair of very efficient horns.. There are in my opinion two opposing forces at play here: 1: Power corrupts, and if you don't want your power to corrupt, you have to spend more money than I have, especially if you want current capability, not just show-room watts. 2: speaker efficiency which really can, especially if there are no odd impedance-dips, make a small and relatively "weak" amp sing. And it is true: the first watt is the most important, but if you want real bass output, you do need some power. I have over the years come to completely disregard "HiFi" parameters like soundstage width and depth, space around instruments and because of having been in live music all my working life, I find that for myself, beyond basic tonality and timbral quality, the one parameter which makes me happy is dynamics; Micro and Macro. I want to hear the loudness-modulations of the human voice, the differing dynamics of a drummer's hits, a pianists dynamism, a.s.o. Without that music dies for me. I still can't play Richard Strauss and Mahler as loudly as I want at home, to even remotely emulate my working-conditions, and that's where I personally want to go. And this is where all of my previous systems have failed abysmally. But they imaged well... The only systems I've heard which could do this have had horn-speakers. SO: horses for courses, Mr Guttenberg!
I was using two separate 50w/channel emotiva amps and thought I needed more power. So I tried a denon x4200 125w per channel in pure direct mode. I switched back to the emotiva because it sounded cleaner and had more separation between the two channels.
Years ago before the email, twitter, etc. I used to exchange letters with Nelson from time to time (real letters). He is not only a certifiable genius, but one of the nicest people I ever haven’t personally met.
I remember a friend of mine had a Fisher tube amp that sounded absolutely amazing and I believe that power output of that amp was about 7W / channel no idea of model no.s or speaker efficiency but I remember the wattage was very low compared to modern amps at the time. Since then I've never considered how many watts an amp has and just listen to it, I want to listen to music not be deafened by it.
I bought a 30 watts rms into 8 ohms Yamaha receiver in the 80's and took it back and got the Yam R700 50 watts per channel ( but with high dynamic headroom I have read, which means they can handle peaks better) which I found gave a much bigger sound as I used it to practice my flute (usually jazz) and needed good volume to be able to hear the details well, my Yamaha also has a spacial exspander knob which I like but I know the purists don't like equalization but not all recordings are well recorded so an equalizer lets you compensate for that. I currently have some vintage AR2's with 10 inch woofers that I find are satisfying with deep bass. Not high end stuff I realize but you can have good enjoyment with a good Buick so to speak. I would rather listen to the best music on a basic stereo than boring music on the most expensive system, of course if you gave me Focal Utopia Grand EM's I would not turn them down. ;) For some reason the high end audiophiles seem to prefer the European or American amps which I don't really understand, if an amp puts out a clean signal that should be the only thing that matters. Here's a great piece of music by Hubert Laws playing Bach.... th-cam.com/video/4ud9Op1AF6A/w-d-xo.html
I use a 20w per channel NAD 310 to power a pair of vintage speakers from 1974 (complete with rubber surrounds and front-facing bass reflex ports) and it's passed all the audiophile diagnostics I've thrown at it from TH-cam. I put it down to good SNRs for the amplifier (106db), the CD player (96db) and the phono stage (80db MM, 78db MC).
I ran a Marantz 2230 for a good 10 years from 2004-2014 using a myriad of speakers, some efficient, some not and it was more than adequate for my purposes and uses. I had some inefficient as you speak mid 80 db and I could get more then enough sound using that trusty Marantz. I used to think having alot of WPC was the way to go too but you know all I ever did was pissing off neighbors, blowing drivers, and causing some hearing damage, lol. I'm now just running some old P-P EL84 stereo amplifier and could care less about ultimate audiophile grade stuff - it is how the sound is conveyed is what matters to me at this point in time. And yes - 9-12 watts of EL84 P-P power per channel gets plenty loud too!
@@Turtleback8024 not entirely....accurate. if anything maggies are relatively easy to drive. Despite, the fact everyone says they are not. All that took is measuring amp draw, and honestly none of my maggies (I got 3 different models). Really taxes the amplifier, However, they do have low sensitivity, and like the volume to be up there at 12 o clock .. But still never had those issue , however.i don't run them with 100w but still. Not a mcintosh or Jeff Rowland glorified welding machine either. They are a resistive load to amplifiers, which makes them very linear on impedance. I think your arcam, had no headroom from the get go. Also I would be surprised if that amp specs 100w at the full bandwith.
I have 85dB 6 ohm (120W peak) speakers in my office stereo that I previously used a 2x30W amp on. Now I use a 2x150W amp, and it has much better control of the bass, no matter the volume level. And no need to use the tone controls either to increase the bass response, which I felt I had to on my former amp - thereby bypassing the tone controls and getting cleaner sound. In fact, they sound so good, I barely ever bother turning my 12" subwoofer on. My main stereo consists of 90dB speakers (300W peak) and a 2x200W (400W in 4 ohm) amp. Again, I get excellent bass control at all volume levels - the previously mentioned 2x150W amp could not provide that for those speakers, at all. Besides, having more power on tap than the speakers can handle, means your amp is far less likely to clip, and possibly blow a tweeter. I find it's much easier to find the limits of the bass drivers, since you can actually see the movement on them.
My solution was to run my preamp output into a powered subwoofer with a high pass filter to strip out the low bass frequencies before passing the mid bass and up to my Schiit Aegir (20 wats/channel, first 10 watts are class A), driving two Klipsch RB-61 II speakers in a near field setup. I never listen to anything much above 86 db, and I'm delighted with the system. Before I upgraded to the Aegir, I had the Reisong A-10 (6 watts/channel, class A), and it was pretty good, too. Unless you're trying to incite your neighbors to burn your house down, or are running stupidly inefficient speakers, you don't need a huge amp. Get a good sub, if you gotta have gut-rattling bass, but go for quality over quantity on your main amp.
Amen, amen and amen. If you don't wreck your ears with the 100w/channel amp you won't need the 250w/ch. My Sansui AU-7500 claims 32w per both channels driven with real music, and with 88db/m speakers it's more than plenty loud for me. Like... real loud. Yes some speakers need more... but not as many as you'd think, especially in an 'average' setup.
I'm a Tim Allen, more power kind of guy. In every power upgrade in my personal system, I've noticed improved control and effortlessness to the sound. An inefficient monitor speaker, and a full-range floor-stander are two completely different things when it comes to power needs. Room size, is a huge determining factor for power as well. In our store while demoing Ultima Salon 2's in our smallish Hi-fi room on a McIntosh amplifier with meters, we typically use around 20 watts of power. At home I've got the 1.3db more efficient Studio 2's, but my room is bigger and open to a hallway and dining area and I'm typically hitting 60 watts. I run McIntosh MC601's and I do like having the 600 watts on reserve, it pays off in effortlessness. It was really apparent in Car Audio, (Sound Quality not SPL) where we were shooting for around twice the watts that the speakers/drivers were rated for. It would always play cleaner with more power.
Speakers with such low sensitivity (85dB/1W/1M) require 3 watts at an average listening volume of 83dB, and the full 30 watt would be enough to cover peaks of up to +10dB for a total peak SPL of 93dB at the listening position. The problem is that they will need 300 watts to cover peaks hitting 103dB. So if your average listening level is higher than 83dB or if you are listening to very dynamic source material, I would say that 30 watt is not enough for those speakers. Not even close.
and then you are maxing out your amp. heating it up. are you keeping track of your heat levels while watching a movie or jaming with friends at party? probably not. amp burns up and or life is shortened by a lot.
After a period of buying more powerful amplifiers, I really got lucky and figured out what I really liked. That turned out to be lowered powered class A amps (20-25 watts).
I live in a loft - not very big but with high ceilings and a lot of air. My old Marantz 2230 always felt more than powerful enough until I moved into this space. I could still get a good volume going but I had to turn up the gain past 12 o'clock. I added a craigslist special Adcom GFA 5300 for a whopping 100 bucks - with 80w per channel I have a lot more headroom. At first I didn't think it was much louder because turning it up to 12 o'clock (using the Marantz as a preamp now) doesn't sound that much louder but at lower volumes I notice a lot more headroom and dynamics. Also I can really utilize the EQ on the Marantz without pushing the amp too hard.
I have a vintage (80's) Luxman M-02 amp with VU meters, and vividly remember the first time I noticed this. 20+ watt peaks can be plenty loud in your living room
I am a DeadHead guitar player, and Audiophile. I have been pre-amping tube fender front end into McIntosh amps for 30 years. Mc50-Mc100-Mc-2300. My weapons of choice for home stereo have been Marantz 2385-2270-2250 into JBL control monitors / Jubals. All I can say is that there is something to be said for the feel of HeadRoom !! It feels better to play, it sound better to me at low volume, and my gear last longer and does not have to work anywhere near as hard. The difference between an Mc50 and a Mc100 is night and day driving one or two JBL K-120’s. The Mc2300 into E-120’s is just a dangerous ice pick in the eye in the wrong room, great for playing outdoors, heavy as hell! Just one Deadheads opinion.
I have been of the opinion that single ended tube amplifiers, very low power, and horn speakers which are very efficient, sound best to for reproducing realistic sound. So I agree with you Steve.
Towards the end you got to the real point: higher power amps do sound better: "more ease" equals better sound. You also forgot to mention that it depends what kind of music you play. If you listen to symphonic music or other types of music with lots of dynamics, you will have a greater need for high power, and you will be more likely to notice the lack of it. Current: it's also not just the power rating but the ability to deliver current. High current amps will sound better. Maybe your lower power amps had lots of current reserves. Finally, cost: there are lots of very good high power amps that don't cost in the realm of your Pass Amps: NCore, Odyssey Audio, Benchmark, PS Audio, Van Alstine. These cost a small fraction of your Pass Amps and are very high quality.
Danny Hoffman More power does not necessarily sound better. In fact with a few exceptions a lot of high wattage amps have the well earned reputation of not being "musical." Any fool designer can build a high watt amp. But design and build a 300 watt amp that sounds as good as a 50 watt amp at normal listening levels - not so easy. Yes, these monsters will sound better louder than say their lower watt counterpart but at reasonable listening levels high watt amps don't cut the mustard. They are exceptions: Conrad Johnson, Bryston and Mackie come to mind. Mackie only makes pro gear. In the studio we need a truck load of high watt and high current amps to run the passive Far Feild Adams. Because when you are soloing the bass track at 100 db and it's a low B string (31hz fundamental) on a 5 electric bass you can never have to much power. But tri-amplification on the Adam far feilds solves a lot of problems. The tweeter, the two 8 inch bass midrange drivers that operate in push/pull configuration and the 18 inch subwoofer all get their own 300 power mono block power amp. O.K.....I lied....The subwoofer gets two 300 watt mono blocks in bridged mode.
It’s true I have an 80 watt NAD but can throw out 200w for burst when needed. I think he was more making the point that for the price difference. Does the listener find personal value for that large difference in cost. He is saying at the price point of 4k he is happy with the sound but like he said throw more money at it and the problems go away. It’s all relative.
It kind of depends on whether you want to FEEL the bass or not 😀 Low power is completely sufficient for tweeters and midrange but for the low end (like a few hertz to 100Hz), you need a lot more power.
Wow, I think that a really good 25 Watt amplifier probably has more omph than a good 100 Watt. I have a 1978 Pioneer 9500II, 80 Watt per channel, there are 2 80 Watt systems inside, that has more power than a modern general consumer integrated amplifier similarly rated. I liken this to outboard motors for boats. I was using 2 rental boats on a fishing trip. One was an absolutely beautiful 4-Stroke, 20 hp Honda. And a beat up, 25 year old 2-Stroke 10 hp Mercury that had obviously more power. My main, power boat has a 2 hp, 2-stroke Yamaha. Spend most of my time in my solo canoe.
I just bought a pair of Sonus Faber Grand Piano 6 ohm speakers rated 90 dB efficiency, replacing my old 99 dB efficiency Klipsch Heresy speakers. I was worried than my YBA Integre DT with 50 wpc into 8 ohms wouldn't have enough power to drive them with sufficient head-room. Well to my delight, the YBA amplifier has plenty of power. I use to listen to the Heresy's between 9 to 10 o'clock on the volume dial. Now with the SF's, I listen at 10 to 11 o'clock and occasionally 1/2 way. At 2 o'clock it is deafening. No need for a bigger amp! BTW, this combination sounds fabulous.
I recall Musical Fidelity explaining why you need above a certain level of power to reproduce loud peaks in a piece of music, but then a few years later they moved more towards lower watt amps. No wonder people get confused!
I understand that speakers can be damaged more easily with a smaller amplifier because of signal clipping. I have a McIntosh MC2500 500-watt power amp that gives a beefier sound, not necessarily louder.
Another great presentation video that also explains a lot of real, practical facts, and clear opinions. Myself, I have a Sony receiver, STR-HD520 (of 2012) of at least 85 Watts, and sounds fine with most music, and is enough. Before, I had an Onkyo at 33 Watts per channel to 2 Forum Model 83 large bookshelf speakers that can handle 5 to 50 Watts, 40Hz to 20KHz +/- 3Db, SPL of 90Db (both of 1987). There is a difference, small as it may seem however; I notice more detail in most music, and with real instruments, too.Later I'm going to purchase a small subwoofer. Thank you, Steve for your real, clear, and logical explanation. Also, vinyl is final.
Question Steve, Does more Power/watts bring out more musical dynamics in your music ? Separates the instuments not just for loudness. I am a 2 channel fan, I am driving my Klipsch RP 280f with 250 watts Bi amped, I am in the process of treating my room which has changed my whole listening experience. 10ft ceilings, big space to fill. My room is L shaped leading to the kitchen. 30 x 20 x 10. Appox.
Rudy R I have the same L shaped dimensions as you. I'm kinda new trying to get some good hi fidelity from my records. I got a cambridge xax35 with an old technics d202 turntable and that's all. I would really appreciate some advice, thanks.
I agree with the need of current. The specs of an amplifier can help if the power makes x2 from 8ohm to 4ohm. An other way to check the ability of delivering high current, is looking at the capacitors inside per channel. From 30.000 microfarads per channel we can expect high current delivery. Two transformers, one per channel, is also a good thing. Or a very big one. For exemple, a Marrantz PM 11S3 has 22000 microfarads per channel and one transformer. Rated 100w classe A/B 8ohms and 200w 4ohms. For speakers like BW 804D3 it's not enough. Sounds great but lakes a little of sound pressure. It works better with a Cayin H80a that has 2 transformers (dual mono design), and 60000 microfarads per channel. Rated 80w at 8ohms classe A. The 804 are 89db/1W/1m. Rated for 8ohms. But, when working, 8ohms is only an average. They go very deep when playing, to 2.1ohms!!! Meaning 1W at 8ohms from the amplifier, the same watt needs to be 4 W at 2ohms. Ohms is a value of resistance. High current needed in this case. So the sensitivity in the specs are not all. I listen at 40 to 55db in a medium/big room. (60m2). Quality of sounds has nothing to do with sound pressure. For ex: A NAD 375bee (rated 150w at 8ohms) has the same Sound pressure has the PM, but the quality of sound of the PM is far higher.
TL;DR: I’ve worked in live and studio sound as well as putting together home systems, here’s my take. I’ll chip in with my experience from across the spectrum from consumer audiophile to live sound and studio sound - I’ve worked with and listened to music at all stages of creating and performing it. Lower wattage relative to speaker/driver rating will equal a more “squeezed” sound. When I was taught amp matching for PA speakers i was taught to split the difference between the continuous and the RMS value on the speaker; thus if the speaker was rated for 500/1k/2k continuous/program/peak, I’d choose an amp at 1500 watts. There’s an important second step here though: the amp was always run at max output, while output from the mix console was about -15 to -20. This allows for a cleaner sound at FOH at lower volumes. In the studio world, I usually see evenly matched amps to speakers, though it varies a lot, and a lot of speakers are custom built and matched for which amp and power sounds best for precisely that speaker setup. The most common “generic” example I can think of would be the Yamaha NS-10 speaker, found pretty much everywhere, which is rated at 120 RMS but often driven by a Bryston 4BST which gives 250 watts. Program volume in the studio is highly variable, I personally don’t mix above about 75 dBSPL except intermittently to check the mix at a higher volume, while I know one guy who works at 85 and another who works at 95 dBSPL nearly continuously. The conclusion I draw from this is that as long as you’re not horribly overpowering your speakers and blowing them out...it comes down to taste and use case and room. My current setup is what I could string together on very little budget, and it has to pull double duty as a surround sound setup as well; but it’s a set of Klipsch’s from the mid-nineties that I traded for some labor at the studio, an inexpensive subwoofer to go with the surround, and a Harmon-Kardon AVR1...30? I’m not looking at the system right now, but it pushes 80w/channel. Mainly what the system is, and what made it sound good, is hours and hours of adjusting the placement and the room to make it sound good. It’s not a large room but it runs in to issues, and I can’t afford the “right” treatment so the 220 hz room resonance is being fixed with a 5-gallon bucket stuffed with pillows and set in a corner, the higher frequency resonances are fixed with lining the walls with bookshelves and textiles, and the floor-to-ceiling garbage was fixed with a nice medium-pile rug. The room itself is maybe 200 square feet but it’s mostly furniture, and frankly I could spend another 10k on gear and have some improvement but the returns diminish a lot from here on out.
I must confess.......i once bi-amped my main stereo speakers, 100 for the mids and highs,100 for the lows....so i was running 4 freakin amps( insert thunder and lightning here)!!!! The sound was.......awesome(more thunder and lightning)!!!!!
So, I think it all depends. My vintage Technics SA-212, with a modest 25 watts per channel, matched up to Yamaha NS-A528’s, practically blows me out of the bedroom. But, it’s a rather small bedroom, maybe 14x12, and well, it’s a bedroom system. Where my Carver M500t, fed by an Onkyo Integra TX-870, at maybe 250 watts per channel, now with Paradigm Titan v3, and Cambridge Soundworks 8” powered sub, loves to be pushed and pushed in the living room. I don’t think one size, and one wattage, fits all applications. Really enjoyed this video.
I would tend to agree. I have and still use as a 2.1 system only a Proton AA1150 50 watt amp from the early 90’s powering Klipsch KG2 bookshelf’s and a passive BSR sub from the 80’s(the 15” driver was replaced 15 years ago due to rot) into a high ceiling, large studio apt, and at 5-10 watts on the VU meters it’s a very decent satisfying volume. Above 10 watts and it more fills the entire room with great dynamic headroom. I almost never get to 50w or use the Power on Demand feature the unit has for short peaks.
Clean power with a short path is all I need. Amp capability is one of the easiest things to figure out in this obsession. It either has it, or it don't.
Sadly only got a receiver that puts out 100 watts per channel and the subs are 600 watt each 😂 I know how to hook up an amp but it’s sounds good with movies so didn’t bother doing tht
I have a 100w per channel Technics amp from a minisystem and I connected that to a pair of B&W DM601S2 speakers, I don't think I've ever heard a PA system go that loud without clipping!
It all depends on a REALLY good power supply. A 30wpc amp with a great, well-engineered power supply will sound cleaner and more powerful than a 100wpc amp with an average quality power supply. At least when concerning amps using linear power supplies. An amp section that is a marvel of design it will never shine if it's power supply is mediocre. That's why First Watt amps sound so good. They have oustanding power supplies supporting the input and output stages.
My 1974 vintage HiFi is rated 20 Watts/channel and my 8 cubic foot speakers (3 way, dome tweeter, 15" Philips woofer) are quite efficient. There is not a Watt meter on my amp but indoors anything above 10 to 15% rattles the windows and the doors and is deafening. I once had it up to 75% volume providing music to an outdoor party in a LARGE back yard and it filled the yard with a good listening level and quality sound. If 20 Watts per channel would do that, I never saw the need to go higher. To each their own!
It's also a function of how loud you play music. If you only listen at modest levels, AND you have a modest-sized room, you'll have enough current to drive even difficult speakers to their potential in that particular circumstance. If you have a giant dedicated listening room, then you're going to need a ton of power because you're trying to pressurize a larger volume of air. The circuit doesn't end at the speaker, it ends in the room and at your ears. Most people can't afford a $250k basement listening room, so we try to make do with normal-sized rooms you would find in a normal suburban house, which require less current capability.
The heart and soul of a hi-fi system is enjoyment. What good is imaging, soundstaging, dynamics, etc., if you don't enjoy the system. Every equipment review should state first and foremost whether the reviewer enjoyed what they were hearing, and whether it enticed them to keep listening. Anything else is just extra.
I was surprise when i decided to use my preouts on my onkyo RZ840 to take some of the load off , i decided to run a separate amp for just the front left and right as i have the polk Towers tsi500 , i decided to use my very old onkyo tx 8255 that is 50 watts per channel at 0.08% Thd 2 channel tested 20hz-20khz. I was amazed at how loud and clean this amp was playing it surprise me as i though i needed 100 watts per channel to really move this towers this heafty reciver has prove my theory wrong. I never thought it was going to sound as powerful and dynamic as it sounds. So yes 50 watts of clean well build heavy transformer well desing amp using aluminum chassis ,will give you enough clean non distorted powerful sound. I agree👍
Agreed. I've always agree with less is better. I know people want high wattage amps for those hard to drive speakers. For me my Luxman 590 does it for me.
The largest peak usage I’ve seen on my high powered amp is a momentary 50 watt jump. And that is with a digital recording of The 1812 Overture where the cannon was digitized at a somewhat realistic level. The blasts show a jump to about 50 watts. With my old Yamaha M65 there is zero distortion even then. Most Classical music played at “loud” volumes requires no more than about 10 watts per channel.
While I understand 99.9% of the time I'm listening to 1 watt or less I had the opportunity to listen to an abundance of at the LA Audio Show for the last few years. Compared to my Conrad-Johnson MF2500a (240 WPC with some pretty decent current and headroom), it was pretty easy to hear smaller amplifiers running out of steam and sounding compressed. While it's true that almost every system this year sounded like crap (that show vs. show thing resulted in almost no manufacturers being there), it's not that difficult for me to hear the benefit of having substantial power reserves. Nobody needs, or can even use 500 horsepower... but you know when it's not there. I'm not listening in a very large room nor am I trying to reshape my roof tiles into a sine wave but, at decent but responsible volume levels, that extra power just feels "relaxed."
more important than headroom is LINEAR REGION... Whenever my mother Sue prepared a meal for company there was always more than enough food. Literally. Her philosophy was a simple one. Always make more than needed so no one left hungry. Our family ate the leftovers for lunch. Pushing supplies to the limit is risky business, both with hungry relatives and power. What we want in a power product is called headroom, the ability of a device to exceed demand by an appreciable amount. Headroom is important on a number of levels: lowering parts stress, relaxing audio presentation, removing strain from both the equipment and the music. If you think you need 100 watts, go for 200 to 300 instead. It’s easy to understand too little strangles performance. The difficult argument is that bigger is better than enough. Taking your equipment right up to the edge, or anywhere even close to shore, isn’t worth the initial savings on equipment. When it comes to deciding how big to go, more than enough should be your guiding light. _Paul McGowan_
For a long time I ran a Nad c720 bee receiver amp with wharfedales diamond 10.1 standmounts. The nad produces only 50 watts per channel. The diamonds were also not the most efficient speakers. After a while i got really bored with my music collection. I was constantly swopping out my cds after just a few seconds of listening and nothing could keep my attention. One day I bought a Yamaha as700 amp at a discount from a local audio retailer here in Cape Town. The as700 produces about 90 watts into 8 ohm speakers. When i hooked it up to the Diamonds I almost fell off my chair. I heard new sounds emanating from the diamonds that I never heard before, even at low sound levels. I was very happy with my music again and gave the Nad away to a family member. Never again will I buy a low powered amp. If you are serious about the quality of the sound then nothing less than 90 watts per channel will do. I now use the as700 to run a pair of Castle Avon 2’s. The Nad was not capable of bringing the best out of the Avons either.
I think the best answer to that question: how much power do you need? depends on what target SPL you WANT. For instance, for orchestral music, you want the system to play at least 112 dB continuously (BTW really, I'd need it to play at 126dB if I wanna play Saint- Saens Sym No. 3). To that end, if your speakers is efficiency rated to be 96 dB@1 watt and 1 metre, then for every 3 dB louder sound level starting from the 1st watt, you need 100% more power. So to reach 112 dB, a 96dB spkr will need some power to reach an additional 16 dB. so it takes a jump of just about 3 dB X 5 = 15 dB, so as to reach that peak SPL of 112 dB. You need to use this formula I created to estimate roughly with: 2+4+8+16+32. In this, you see each number to add from the base "2" is a double jump. So there are 5 jumps. Those 5 jumps will each give a 3 dB bump. So 3 dB X 5 jumps = 15 dB. Since the last jump stops at 32, about 30-ish watts will make a 96dB efficient spkr get you about 111 dB (96dB base efficiency + 15 dB jump). And that assumes your speaker will take at least 30 watts rms. 126dB? I hear you ask. Arghhhh.......... NEXT example, my 98 dB efficient Tannoy LZM III Gold 10" minotors are rated at 15 watts rms, it can only make SPL of 98 + 12 dB jump = 110 dB. Still lose to what I need eh? Another example, my LS3/5A 65th Anni is rated at 84 dB/1 watt/1 m. And it takes 60 watts rms. So how loud will it play? That is 84 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 (watts) . I hv to stop at 64 coz that's how much power that speaker can take in rms. Easy, right? 84 + 18 dB = 102 dB. Huh, that's not even close to 110 dB of my Tannoy. That's been how I estimate my need for amp power since age 13.
For a few decades now 100 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms per channel has been the industry standard. Most people don't need 100 watts. Just like most cars don't need 300 horsepower. But it's nice to have. 100 watts gives you the extra headroom you might need just in case. Just like 300 HP gives you the extra horsepower you might need just in case. In PA speakers where durability, volume, and clarity are very important. The rule of thumb is your amp should be twice what your speakers are. Example if you have a pair of speakers rated at 250 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms each. You should get an amplifier rated at 500 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms per channel. The reason for this is because the amps are running the speakers at loud volumes continuously for several hours. It's also why PA amps have so much more powerful fans on them than home stereo amps. The musicians & DJs aren't running 500 watts through those 250-watt speakers. But a 500-watt amp can easily handle whatever is needed from a 250-watt speaker. You could power a semi-truck with a 4 cylinder engine from a VW bug. But it's more practical to put a Cummins X15 engine in there instead.
in college, i had a good jvc receiver (not audiophile stuff, but .007% thd in stereo) and a pair of cerwin vega VS 120s and a subwoofer (the subwoofer was not needed at high output on the stereo, but a bump up at low wattage). I could close the door on my dorm room and make all of the heater covers in the entire hall (old building) rattle - audibly rattle, subwoofer turned off at that point. I'm older now. I still have a 100 watt receiver, but I'm enamored when playing guitar with amps that are switchable and are have a 1 and 5 watt setting, and 18 watts now seems impossibly loud (maybe I"m getting older). I'm trying to resist the urge to get audiophile stereo stuff, or perhaps to build it aside from buying the amplifer and preamp to slow it down, but I know whatever I do going forward, it will be less wattage. I like the immersion, but don't have to be shellshocked and my room isn't big. Different story, I guess, if someone is sitting in a 30x50 room, but I'm not.
As the poster below mentioned, the Revel Salon2 being a full range speaker and low sensitivity NEED a powerful amp. Otherwise the sound is thin, weak. I personally use a 250 w amp for speakers with 91 dB sensitivity, so they don't require a lot of power. But what that amp gives me is pure class A up to 8-10 w output.
OK, I was using an old 180W/Ch Perreaux amp for stage foldback but it began to have popping issues when powering down (not a good sign). So, I sent it off with a friend to get serviced and repaired in another city. All I had to cover for it until I could go pick it up was a Pioneer A400x, about 60W/Ch. Well, it did the job just fine, I don't think anyone was aware of any difference. Well, I'm sure Steve knows that you need 10 times the power to double the perceived volume right so 1/3 the power isn't all that significant unless you normally drive amps near max. Not sure what the sensitivity of the speakers is but there just inexpensive floor wedges after all.
I have a pair of Elac Debut 6 2.0’s and using either a Rotel RX-1052 (100 wpc 8 ohms) or a Marantz 2325 (125 wpc), the Rotel is up to 70 of 90 to get a decent sound level in a small room, as opposed to about a quarter turn of the Marantz volume knob, and the Marantz gets a lot more low end as well. The Rotel is clearer on the mids and highs, however, and the imaging is better.
I used to run a basic audio innovations 9wpc Series 300 amp into B&W 110s, never went to full volume in my small apartment. Thing is, it showed what the musicians were actually doing. I tried more powerful, highly regarded solid state amps; they sounded detached from reality and a bit dynamically flat. So, rated at 12wpc , reviewed at 9wpc with the quote “I failed to measure any useful peak current” but sounded great with Zeppelin, Queen, Deep Purple, Copland, Beethoven..., hundreds of records and all bar a couple of 1000 CDs.
Agree with you! Currently I'm running a pair of mid 80's KEF Coda 3's with an 87DB sensitivity with a early 80's Pioneer SX-820 (rated at 45wpc). IMO it sounds extremely nice, and warm... The speakers are happy and the receiver is too. Like you mentioned, at 3wpc its loud but not ear bleeding loud. My other system, while not what most would call extravagant, is a Late 90's Yamaha RX-V995 Home theater unit running in Stereo mode (No DSP etc... 100wpc @ 8ohms) mated to a pair of KEF 104/2's with a 92DB sensitivity. It the best of both worlds, it performs great at low volumes but when you want to crank it up it does it very well! I'm still blown away with this combination.. the 104/2's and the Yamaha work very well together!
I notice a quite a huge difference between a 40-50w and 100 or 150w (or more) amp. Even at lower volumes. So thus was absolutely not a correct claim! I NEED atleast 100w (I have just encreased to 150w) Real messured watts (all ch driven, 8ohm, 20Hz-20kHz) that is! And not just the typical 1ch driven, 6ohm, 1kHz messured peak crap many manufactures use. The more power the better because it's always good to have headroom and power for loud volumes.
SET amps with a 300B puts out about 8 watts rms per channel. My favorite push-pull tube amp puts out 12 watts rmp per channel. My speakers are rated at 88db SPL, not particularly great, but they get the job done for me.
I had a Sansui 9090 pushing very efficient speakers,101db,and 10 watts on the power meters was about all you could stand. I mean it was loud and clear, shaking the whole house. I pegged it out once over 100 watts one time ....not for the faint of heart. 30 to 60 real watts is all you need with the right speakers.
I need power to drown out the tinnitus.
get a bigger floor fan
@Cale Olsen I know right.🙉🥲
Hahahaha, I know that story. I'd like to be more of an audiophile but the hearing damage from 17 years in the military means that speed, staging, and power mean more than outright accuracy.
Sad, I have to listen to my music with hearing aids..I have about 38 db of just ringing...
I know what you're talking about! It's like everything I listen to, I'm listening to it behind Penderecki's Threnody, and trying to pick out the parts that are not Threnody. That being said, I don't think more power necessarily does the trick - speaker/listener positioning, EQ, etc seem to matter a lot. It certainly gets more complicated when dealing with hearing impairments like this.
More power doesn't always equate to needing to play at louder volumes. It has to do with keeping the amplifier in its linearity range for the best quality of sound and a better dynamic presentation.
Correct
@@tugboatamerica This just shows you how these "audiophiles" can't even comprehend the basic knowledge in audio systems...they believe in $10k cables but they don't understand why low sensitive speakers need 100W just because they can play equally loud with 30W
Anyone agreeing to your comment didn't even listen to what Steve had to say. I run my Maggies off of 2x 18W mono amps and they sound great. Unless you push the volume further than "reasonably loud", which I rarely ever do. The sound is very controlled, they really shine until the average output is about 2W/channel. More than enough - I prefer to preserve my ears over showing off a set of 300W amps to my neighbours.
PS: No $10K cables here, either ;)
That threshold where quality degrades happens at really loud volumes when using a good 100 watts amplifier, regular sized residential rooms. Probably way above the levels enthusiasts listen to in their medium sized rooms and speakers.
@@4nz-nl Extreme views on EITHER side of the power divide are just plain wrong. Your system lacks headroom for anything but the most evenly amplitude distributed music. Add ANY real dynamic range and your theories die an ignominious death. I'm an audio engineer for more than 45 years....
In studio work, a common rule of thumb is to adjust monitors to a reference level of 80 dBs at -20dBFS. (0dBFS being the peak output for digital recording.) 30Wrms would have an equivalent output of 42.45Wpk given a crest factor of sqrt(2) for a sinusoidal test signal. This would ensure that at peak output of a normalized mastered CD won’t clip the output of the amplifier. To ensure this the -20dB level would be 0.3dB. For the 85dB rated speaker, the output would be slightly less than 80dBs. Assuming a listening distance of 2 meters, the level would be 74dBs. Both channels driven you get 77 dBs at reference level with 100 dBs peak. Seems like respectable levels @ 30Wrms. If the amp has marginal output, it will clip if pushed any harder. Modern pop and rock recordings are often mixed hot with significant compression which can make the 30 watter sound much ballsier.
Having built amp for about 20 years, I have found that generally a lower power amp with a decent power supply will driving almost any speakers. A high wattage one with a smaller transformer and less supply caps will struggle. It's all about have enough ommph for the transient peaks. It's not about continuous rating when it come to audiophile reproduction
Although I have not heard them, I do aspire to hear amps like Naim or Hegel, with their large transformers but modest power...
So far everything with more power sounds better to me at the same listening levels, dynamics seem a lot better
You're confusing more power with better quality amps. Often, better quality amps also have more power, but that doesn't have to be the case. It's like thinking more expensive food and drinks are automatically "better". Good quality water is both better and cheaper for you than expensive beer.
@@4nz-nl no I am not everything being equal more power is always better. There is no problem getting pretty much the same power amps with almost identical build inside(even same components) and still have the more powerful one sound better. It seems you have forgotten about the magic thing called headroo, especially for transients.
@@kautkascitadaks You're trying to school me here, but forgot to think of the fact that if those two amps have the same limited power supply, at the same power output one does not have more headroom than the other. Rated power output is just a rating, it's nothing magical. Also, if the amps are entirely equal with the same SNR, depending on the design the more powerful one will actually sound worse.
@kautkascitadaks I have ver efficient speaker which can be powered by just a couple of watts but I understand watt you are saying. I find the dynamics better at low volumes better with more power. The top end didn't seem any different, but at lower volumes 100%
Around 1974, I had a Marantz 4140 quad pre-amp/amp rated 70 watts per channel RMS at 8 ohms for stereo, and 25 watts per channel at 8 ohms driving four channels. I never played the specs game, considering it an open pit of some sort. However, it had four meters which look two meters extra cool. Being a primitive sort, I rarely looked at them other than to make certain they were moving. I used it with four JBL L100's, which were at the time considered relatively 'efficient' compared with the other top-selling bookshelf speakers of the day. I tried it at the stereo setting , and could tell the difference, but it sounded great to me driving all four channels, and that's the way I used it. And I used it pretty loud. Instead of putting money into two basic stereo amps to get more power, I put it into a TEAC four-channel open-reel deck. Yes, 'consumer' level stuff, but life is a series of priorities.....
Man my 100 watt Levinson amp blew me away. I sold it for a 2 watt Zen that drew me into the music. Power corrupts!
Just for those that don't know, doubling the amplifier power WILL NOT make your speakers play TWICE as loud. You would need an amplifier that is 10X as powerful to do that.
Most people don't realize that decibels are logarithmic and not linear. So doubling the power will not double the sound pressure level. DBs
@@matthewarendt4416 How do you know most people don't know that? Did you take a survey? It also depends what you mean by double. Here is an example. Suppose you had a mono source of pink noise and you played it thru 1 speaker only for a reference volume level. Next play it thru both speakers (a matched set). Who is to say if that is twice as loud or not? It depends on the person's perception. Suppose someone DID say that is now twice as loud (cuz 2 speakers are playing). So then, going back to 1 speaker at say 1 watt of pink noise, increasing that speaker to 2 watts WOULD double the volume to the same person that said 2 speakers sound twice as loud as 1. Also, what if your SPL is 3dB (in a VERY quiet room) and you double the power? Will it be 6dB SPL now? How is that not doubling the SPL? Define your terms. "Double" is vague the way you refer to it.
I love the arguments at my club meetings. My amp is bigger than yours, Mine runs in class A, Mine are Monoblocks, My wife is a supermodel. Argument over!
My wife's not a super model but I'll take her over my surround sound system any day of the week...
@Terry Connor Telling our wives they are a supermodel, will get you that bigger amp, btw.
@Terry Connor They say that then want a full carat ring lol
@@williammorales8204 True. The finance officer has to be 'tweaked' in a nice way for the project to proceed... :-)
Naturally I HAD to click on the video with those glorious blue glowing McIntosh power meters 😍
All hail McIntosh !👍
Just need to be a millionaire to buy them
@@MrStingraybernard - McIntosh is on the affordable side of audiophile. I bought a couple pieces of Mac that were gently used. And according to Audiogon they’re worth just about what I paid for them eight years ago.
This is one of the most interesting posts that I have heard in quite some time . I know for a fact that my triode wired EL 34 amp at 23.5 watts per channel has far outplayed 300 watt per channel amps . The authority ,cone control and musicality that it has really shows that the numbers are just numbers !
It's not always about the total power output. I have 250w Parasound amps and most of the time I'm using the first 8-10w of pure Class A power.
Fully agree with this, my VU’s pointing to 2 watt for 802D3’s and it gets pretty loud for a living room. A Primaluna with 35watt/ch. is driving the big speakers with ease... you need a good amp and you are good... look at Accuphase class A Amp, with 30 W into 8 Ohm...
Everything you have said is absolutely true!!! I used to own a old pioneer receiver that had those analog needle for power output ( coolest thing ), and when I played loud, 2 watts was very normal. Now, with that said, i did hit 5 and 10 watts quite often. When the bass notes kicked in, that's where the power meter went nuts. Low frequency uses ( and requires ) a lot of power ( below 200khz ). When watching movies on your home theater, most don't realize they are only pushing about 20-30 watts through there mains/center when the action gets going. The sub on the other hand is really sucking those watts down ( explosions/ car crashes/etc ). One of the main reasons to have a "sub out" on your receiver is to take the stress off the the amp inside so that it can dedicate power to your mains/center/surround/etc. A powered subwoofer is a must for any home theater. With all that said, power headroom ( also known as dynamic headroom ) is your friend. The more headroom, the better.Also, the more watts the amp is able to pump out, the better. Reason? To save your speaker investment. Yes. To save your speakers. When you run to much power through your speakers, it takes much longer to damage them. If you push your amp to hard, you get whats called distortion, and this will ruin your speakers faster that anything. Distortion is not a linear signal ( smooth control of harmonics/frequency ), and so power increases rapidly when that linear signal becomes unstable ( not enough power for a multitude of reasons ). Distortion can usually be heard at around 10% ( 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD) , but some people are able to hear it at 1%. If you hear distortion, back off or you WILL damage your speakers. I damaged a set of car speakers with a clock radio back in the 80's. These car speakers were rated at 65 watts RMS, and 100 peak. I cracked them with a clock radio ( all because of distortion ). That clock radio maybe knocked out .2-.3 watt of power ( not even half a watt ), and I damaged a set of brand new car speakers.
Nailed it!! Low power amps are more likely to kill a set of speakers than a high powered one.
I love power and am a big proponent of it, I am a live sound engineer/audiophile, even at home, my smallest stereo amp puts out approximately 80 Watts per channel.I am more into the right amount of power not just astronomically huge amounts of power. I like the "ease" that comes with having more power which keeps the amount of distortion vanishingly small.That in turn allows for better revelation of fine details (I find) because the amplifier is not working hard and therefore has a lot more reserve current available without strain which leads to better ,smoother, more articulate. sound in my opinion, but I get why you say what you are saying, and I agree that we don't always need lots of power, we just need a reasonable amount of good, clean power.
Clean power is the thing. The power supply for each of my 18W monos is can feed it with 460W if necessary.
I also learned that clutter helps with sound acoustics haha I used to leave my listening room impeccable, and I noticed that famous slap echo returned. So I put stuff back in the room. Its not crazy messy, but just enough to stop it.
Its depends ! First the Amp needs to match the Speakers. Like you said Efficient Speakers sound good at a lower power than heavy load speakers. My speaker cables (I thought they were decent oxygen free wire) got oxidized green from one end to the other. I do live about 3 miles from the beach . That added about 2 ohms over the 15' of wire. Yes it did make a noticeable difference in volume per watt input. Mostly at the low volume, both highs and lows sounded better with new wire that I made sure was melted then coated with liquid tape, to ensure it did't happen again.
Had a NAD 312 (2x30W) with Dali Menuet speakers (85db/Wm) and they sounded very musical.
I tried three different 50 watt per channel receivers (all used from Ebay) and a couple of them sounded okay with pioneer andrew jones tower speakers. Then I got a used yamaha AV-50 amplifier for $74 (vintage 1988). Took the cover off and cleaned the pots with DEOXIT. The 30 year old AV-50 is rated 105 wpc @ 8 ohms. The pioneer speakers are rated 6 ohms and sound great with this amp. The very noticeable increase in power over the 50 watt receivers makes an enormous improvement in sound quality and listening enjoyment (rock/electronic music). My rule would be, at least when you're using budget equipment, you will be happier with decent speakers and 100 watts per channel.
Hey Steve. Love the show. My son has a pair of Kef Q100 bookshelf speakers being powered with a Yamaha RS300 stereo amp and as you know the Kefs are rated 86 db sensitivity and the Yamaha is only 50 watts/channel, so they sound pretty good but when I hooked the Q 100s up to my rotel rc1590 pre amp and rb1582mkii power amp they totally transformed. The soundstage got wider and the clarity was 100 times better than the Yamaha. The overall volume was a lot louder and the drivers barely moved. So to your point, yes the lower wattage can be sufficient to create good sound at a decent volume level but the more power you give them I feel the more you will get out of the speaker 10 fold.
I once saw in one of those audio shows a 5W tube mono each powering huge floor standing speakers and I was surprised how good the sound was... no strain at all. Granted they’re not playing at concert level volume but most of us don’t have concert-size listening rooms anyway in our homes.
You are right. A good 25W to 30W amp is more than capable of driving speakers to a reasonable listenij level, in an average listening room, prividi it has a decent current reserve, or dynamics will suffer. But the more power the amp has at it’s disposal, the better control it’ll have over the speakers, particularly low frequency. You did say you could notice a differs with you more powerful amp. Interestingly, I have a 135W amp driving a 91DB 8ohm large pair of floor standers. My wife has a 25W amp driving a pair of 90DB 4ohm bookshelf speakers. We live in a ground floor apartment. Our only neighbours live on the floor above us. They’ve never complained about the volume of my music, but, on the odd occasion have complained about the volume of my wife’s music. I’m guessing that my more powerful system, does not need to be overly loud in order to produce good, full range, tonality!
I have a Sansui A-40 with 25 watts into 8 ohms... and it sounds amazing... so clean sound, speakers are Crysler LivingAudio CE700... it's only 25 watts but so big sound... :)
My old 2x25W Pioneer has never failed or clipped. Power meters show usually max 2x3W/8 ohms. These days I use it as a phono pre-amp and Denon 7.1 AVR for modern inputs/sources. It sounds the same when using direct stereo mode.
The advantage of a high power, high quality amp was demonstrated by Bell Labs many decades ago. When less of the total power output is used to attain the desired SPL the amount of distortion from the amplifier also decreased.
I used to be that guy, searching for maximum watts. Now I'm the guy looking for affordable hearing aids. Clean and accurate beats loud, trust me!
Oh, I went crazy too. In my late teens and early 20's I wanted more power. In the end, I had a massive Onkyo M504 165wpc power amplifier with a Cerwin Vega subwoofer and two custom bookshelf speakers I made myself. All in an 8 by 11 bedroom. Yeah....overkill. However, I got the Onkyo for nothing and just had to fix it and I loved the big green analog power meters it had on it...very much like the huge blue meters on the McIntosh amps. But I had noticed that when I was playing the amp, the meters never swung high up on the scale and I had to put it on the reduced range to get some nice swing on them. I would say that what Steve was saying above is correct. Even though I liked my music on the louder side, I RARELY hit 40 to 60 watt peaks and for 'normal' listening, it hovered more around 20 watts. So while I think a 30wpc amp would have been small for that system. I would have been fine with a 50wpc amp easily. There was no way I needed the insane power of the M504 in a bedroom. I mainly kept it for many years because I liked the huge meters, but in a fairly recent move, I finally decided to part with it. The thing was a beast too and weighed about 50 lbs. Nowadays, I am looking into what can be done with lower powered amplifiers and higher efficiency speakers as I don't want a huge rack of equipment anymore. What Steve didn't mention above, is that a key figure in matching an amplifier to speakers is the SPL or 1w/1m rating on a speaker. For every 3db increase in a speaker system's efficiency you need only half the power to get it to the same volume. So for example, with his 86db speakers, if you go to an 89db speaker, you half the power, so a 15 watt amplifier on the 89db speaker will have the same output as 30watts going to the 86 db speaker. So you could imagine how loud something with the efficiency of a Klipschorn (105db 1w/1m) would sound with only a couple watts of power. BUT the Klipschorn is a VERY huge and VERY expensive cabinet. But still, the idea that a speaker like the Klipschorn could easily rip you a new one with only 5 watts of power, is mind blowing. So if you want to get fairly loud with low powered amplifiers, do take the efficiency into consideration. Try to get it above 90...better yet, over 93.
So what to with 400 watt speakers? Will any amp do?
@@lonelycake4114 Depends on what you use the speakers for. If you're planning to use those 400 watts, you will need an amp stable at a multitude of that. But will you?
@@4nz-nl
Reading the above posts, im starting to realize that i probably crave loudness to hear details 🤷♂️
@@lonelycake4114 It's a matter of time before the details fade away 🤣
My experience with watts shows that most watts are consumed with music having 20-70 Hz frequences at full amplitude. If anyone use bookshelf speakers that intentionally not reproduce 20-70 range so that speakers have fast drop of SPL in this range they probably don't need more than 2x35 watts.
But for full range 20Hz-20kHz floorstanding speakers (natural or EQ/DSP corrected) rated 500+W they need at least 2x200W amplifier to have dense low bass. In some audio fragments it yields mentioned 20W, for other parts floorstanding speakers can easily take 200W to produce low bass parts. If floorstanding speakers are powered with 35W amp, they will just silently move bass heads with no sound at all.
It seems that the power required depends on the type of music played. I have a 150 per channel (250 into 4 ohms) driving Martin Logan SL3s. My system runs off a 300 watt power (continuous) regenerator which allows peak draws of 900 watts. The speaker sensitivity is 88dB, which I run at about 75dB. One might think that 1 watt might be good enough. The power regenerator shows a green light when below 300 watt draw, but goes red when higher than this. With a lot of music that I listen to, the light stays green. However, with a lot of bass, the woofer is made to work a lot, and this is when the red light stays on. It seems that moving a 10 inch woofer using a large magnet does require a lot of power. While the woofer would still work when it can't draw the power it needs, it is probably not working to its full potential if it is being starved of power. I guess that this is why a fair number of active subwoofers have 500 or 1000 watt internal power amps.
I think you are correct I have a 50 watt Marantz slimline receiver. I’m using Definitive Technology Mythos St for my front and rear speakers. I have never had a problem with with volume. It’s always great for me. The sensitivity of my speakers is 93db. My receiver never gets hot. I had a Dennon 125 watt receiver and that thing got so hot you could burn your hand on it. I figure there must have been something wrong with it. I sold it and bought the Marantz. I have had the Marantz for about two years and it never gets hot. It works perfectly. I was afraid when I bought it it would not get loud enough. It’s gets very loud. I have come to the conclusion that for my size room and the fact that my speakers sensitivity is 93db that 50 watts is plenty. I have a Sp meter and some times I use it to check how loud it is. I usually don’t go beyond 90 db but it does 90 db with out breaking a sweat. I don’t want it any louder then that. I think Marantz is a good company and they don’t lie about their specifications. I just subscribed to your channel.
-- Go in large room otherwise silent. Scream. Then speak. Which can be heard? Both. Which can be understood? Speaking, but also screaming yet in a very different way.
My 50 wpc amp drives my LS50 easily in my medium size listening room. It is the Emotiva Basx a-100. The watts rating gives an idea of the amp's driving ability. What is seldom specified is the power supply's stability when overdriven.
I am using a vintage 35-watt Pioneer SX-650 to drive my PSB 800's. I got it for 20$ at a garage sale, works perfect, but I imagine it could use a good cleaning and re-capped. This is a receiver I seriously wanted when it was new, was thrilled to find one locally. I had it stored away, but I spilled water into my current amp and killed it, so it was nice to have a backup. This little guy has more than enough power to run my PSB's which have 90db sensitivity
Bret Spangler Good deal you got there but Pioneer is not an Audiophile company. They are not even mid-fi. But if $20 is all you have I think you hit gold.
Vintage isn't always good. The preamp section in any Pioneer would never please me. No detail in the bottom end at low levels. And the typical tissy top end most Japanese receivers/amps have. What a lot of people think is the sound of a crash or high hat cymbal isn't - it's high frequency distortion. We don't hear it as distortion though. It's there on most mid-fi: headphone amps circuits, preamps, and especially in the cheap-o out put stages of Japanese CD players. If you have a good CD player / DAC and you have at any time used an audiophile headphone amp (like the Grado R-1) then you will know what I am referring to. The first time I plugged in my 555 into the Grado R-1 I wondered what happened to the top end. It sounded as if someone had turned down the treble. In fact the high frequency distortion is so low in reference headphone amps that it presents the illusion of the treble being turned down when in fact you are hearing the real sound of cymbals.
I kept upgrading and moving up the audiophile ladder and then....OH NO!!! I ran out of money/luck. When components broke down I had to replace them with mid-fi Japanese stuff. Going from a Nad intergrated amplifier to an Onkyo receiver was a let down of grand proportions. No weight in the bottom and too bright. And much less detail. And the headphone amp was just passable.
Good points in this video. I find I like the sound of high current amplifiers. They seem to sound "faster".
Thank you for chipping in for low power, high quality amps! The only purpose for all that power is to rattle walls and tick off your neighbours, but it never adds to any joy of music for me. My vintage Superscope R-310 with its 5W/chan has BUMPED all other amps I tried off the shelf for 12 years now. The others, inlcuding NAD, McIntosh, Marantz, Technics, Toshiba, and others went back to the closet or to a dealer, the R-310 stayed. The only other one that lasted and is in the living room is my SAE-TWO R3C, which is a 30 W/chan piece. Both are no-fatigue, hear it all, musically enjoyable amps, that also deliver clarity and detail.
I have a Sony STR-ZA1000ES AV Receiver. Only has a 290W power supply. This is the best sounding AV Receiver I've owned. I've had Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Harmon Kardon. The Sony ES isn't lacking in power, doesn't have gimmicks, only the essentials. It just works. I use this to power 4 JBL 530's , 1 520C. Use a SVS SB12 NSD sub. Recently added Sony SSCSE height speakers. My AV Receiver has worked flwlessly for 3 years, use every day.
I've got 50W/channel Marantz into a pair of 89db/1WCanton floorstanding speakers. I sit about 8 feet from the pair. Put on Quadrophenia, for example. 1/2 volume is where I listen most of the time. Very comfortable and engaging. If I go to 3/4 volume, it sounds great, but I can tell that I'd be taking slow hearing damage if I listened at that level for extended periods of time on a regular basis.
I used tom have a pair of mid-1970s Klipsch LaScalas driven by a humble 22 W/channel Marantz receiver. Speakers so efficient, something like 105db/1W, that In couldn't turn it up past 3/4 without pain in my ears, so I kept it much lower. They were too big for my living space back then, so I gave them away to a guy who loved music but had a thin wallet.
2 high-end amps of identical standard/grade. One is 40W RMS/channel. The other is 150W RMS/channel.
Without blasting it loudly, I’d say the higher wattage one would sound snappier and more dynamic....with both amps powering the same 8ohm premium grade bookshelf speaker of 89db/watt sensitivity
I'm on the fence here, but I lean toward having more power rather than less. It is not just a question of playing the music loud, but of reproducing the dynamics without compression or distortion. If you want music to sound (more or less) "live," then it needs to be dynamic and effortless. Given that power demand scales up much faster than sound pressure level (Is it exponential or logarithmic? I forget.), it is easy to imagine something as simple as a kick drum strike pushing a low-powered amp into its distortion zone even at modest listening levels. A high-powered amp will have deeper reserves for those demanding transients. It's better to have and not need it, than need it and not have it.
John Baker indeed
Agreed, although your speaker's efficiency plays in A LOT!
What about good low watt designs John?
Well, sorry but you are wrong. It is not about how much power a amp can deliver, it is all about HOW the amp is delivering the power! And that my friend, you cannot find in the technical specifications. But i know that there are many low watt amps out there, that truly outperform "bigger watts amps" from the well know names. Some speakers really come to life with those little gems.
@@deejeemadrox1866exactly, I am using a Jean Hiraga Le Monstre 8 watt amp, which is pure class A single ended. It's a DIY design, a 35lb beast and it sings with my Frugel Horns with Alpair 7p. I've also heard a Pass VFET DIY amp at a DIYer's place along with Salas DCB1 and Soekris.. the best amp I have heard till date... but it's just 18-20watts.
My old Marantz 1030 integrated amplifier only produces 15 watts RMS per channel, and drives my Wharfedale bookshelf speakers just fine. They won't shake the room, break windows, or crack plaster. But the sound is crystal clear, and pleasant. It's not all about power.
Even a low dynamic range format such as vinyl LP will need 60 dB of range from the Amp AND the speakers. So a speaker playing at 90 dB SPL at 1m with 1W will play 110dB (in the midband - typically at 1kHz and the system noise floor at 50 dB SPL at 1kHz) with 100W (if we don't count compression - such as soft bit and enclosure losses, voice coil heating, etc.) All full range single driver speakers and many/most audiophile speakers cannot reach full audio bandwidth, full dynamic range at reasonably low distortion at required power, having released their smoke reserves or dislocating their soft bits from their hard bits, before achieving this. If you are NOT in a NY apartment with neighbors (who have the police on speed-dial) and you wish to play down to 20 Hz (or even 40 Hz) at 110 dB at less than about 10% thd, then you will need way more Power than 100W with any realistically efficient speaker with sufficient Vd (Sd x X-max) and a speaker that is way bigger and more rugged than typical audiophile fare.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.... some don't want realistic reproduction from their 'Hi-Fi' system: Some like to use their imagination with tiny homunculi Barbie dolls; and some prefer the real thing!
yoootoob1 Ahhh, 20hz. Most people have never actually heard it or should I say FELT it. The low B string on 5 String electric bass has a fundamental of 31hz. Most consumers who "talk about" low bass don't realize how low 31hz actually is. On even big full range Polk speakers for example they will bottom out slightly below 36 hz. You would be surprised at how many subwoofers crap out below 40 hz.
A short story: A few years ago a high end (arrogant and expensive) subwoofer company was curious at how they stacked against the competition. So the owner/designer went to various audio shows throughout the Kingdom (bare with me guys. Please.) and listened to many subwoofer manufacturers that claimed their top of the line subwoofer was flat down to 17 hz. WTF?! (Head moving super fast left to right like in a Scooby Doo cartoon)
17 hz is not low bass....Nope.....It's INFRASONIC BASS and these frequencies played loudly can actually make you sick or even kill you...Much like my Aunt's cooking.
Back to our story.
He had brought along with him a CD full of church organ music with lots of bass pedal (super far left) action going down to 17hz.
Assuming the engineer doesn't filter it out, the Compact disk can go down to 5 hz. Vinyl couldn't..Not even direct to disk.
The lowest note on a big church pipe organ is E0 (16 hz) That is just the fundamental note. That same bass pedal (the last one) has lower harmonics reaching down to 10 hz (More cartoon headshaking) Back in the 80's I remember reading about a flagship subwoofer that was flat down to 10hz. Wow! Was it true?....
He visited many audio shows and listened to many subwoofers (really super expensive) that claimed they were flat down to 17hz. Not one them passed his CD organ test. And the company representatives came up with every excuse under the book: It's the room, the cables (Oh please!), the amp in the subwoofer needed heating up first..
I remember when I was a security guard (Nov 1988) and they were installing the sound system at The Fairview Mall Cinema (Toronto, Ontario) where I worked. The day they installed the subwoofer is a day burnt into my memory. No bass ports, no sneaky DSP circuitry, no built in Class D amps, no acoustic tricks or wild designs. The subwoofer they brought in WAS THE SIZE OF A HONDA ACCORD. A big ASS CAR SIZED PASSIVE sealed box with two front firing 18 inch woofers. I am pretty sure that abomination was flat down to 17hz.
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq while 99% of what you posted is absolute fact your thoughts on 20hz not being audible are simply not true ,20hz is well within the range of undamaged human hearing ,at my final hearing test mandated by my job ,before I retired ,I could hear down to 18hz and I was 55 years old at that time , and while not a peer reviewed study the TV show Myth Buster's did a segment on bass response below 20hz in an attempt to find the infamous " brown note " that people claim will make you shit your pants ,it's an interesting segment because they blasted that idiot with a ridiculously high SPL down to around 4hz ,they swept from 25hz down to 4 or 5 hz where it made his lips flap like a bulldog will it's head out the car window & he never shit himself ,or got sick ,now that I think about it I think they even went so far as to put his silly ass inside of a massive plexiglass sub box & blasted him ,I know it's some funny shit & well worth searching out & watching .
Here's my experience. I use a Yamaha AVR rated at 105wpc, all channels driven. It drives my Definitive Technologies very well although they do have a powered woofer. When I switched those with some Thiel 1.5s with a much lower sensitivity (around 86 I think), my AVR could not properly drive them. I was afraid of clipping the amplifiers trying to get a decent volume level out of the Thiels.
Power is the first thing you will look at if you're a "basshead" when you're already using your chest not just your ears in listening to music...
I own (but no longer use regularly) a Sugden A21a amp; pure class A, 25w/channel 8Ohms. It sounds fantastic, IF: you listen to the right music, through fairly efficient speakers. I used a pair of B&W CDM1 bookshelf-speakers and on acoustic music, chamber-classical, jazz, etc, it was a magical combo (I know; for the money!). For full-on opera or Deep Purple's Made in Japan (which cannot be listened to quietly!) not so much. I still own that amp and one day I will build a pair of very efficient horns.. There are in my opinion two opposing forces at play here: 1: Power corrupts, and if you don't want your power to corrupt, you have to spend more money than I have, especially if you want current capability, not just show-room watts. 2: speaker efficiency which really can, especially if there are no odd impedance-dips, make a small and relatively "weak" amp sing. And it is true: the first watt is the most important, but if you want real bass output, you do need some power.
I have over the years come to completely disregard "HiFi" parameters like soundstage width and depth, space around instruments and because of having been in live music all my working life, I find that for myself, beyond basic tonality and timbral quality, the one parameter which makes me happy is dynamics; Micro and Macro. I want to hear the loudness-modulations of the human voice, the differing dynamics of a drummer's hits, a pianists dynamism, a.s.o. Without that music dies for me. I still can't play Richard Strauss and Mahler as loudly as I want at home, to even remotely emulate my working-conditions, and that's where I personally want to go. And this is where all of my previous systems have failed abysmally. But they imaged well... The only systems I've heard which could do this have had horn-speakers. SO: horses for courses, Mr Guttenberg!
I was using two separate 50w/channel emotiva amps and thought I needed more power. So I tried a denon x4200 125w per channel in pure direct mode.
I switched back to the emotiva because it sounded cleaner and had more separation between the two channels.
P.S. Nelson pass is crazy genius
Years ago before the email, twitter, etc. I used to exchange letters with Nelson from time to time (real letters). He is not only a certifiable genius, but one of the nicest people I ever haven’t personally met.
I've read that too
He's alright (no genius). There are many engineers out there like him or better. You think this dude is some Overlord genius because Steve said so.
I remember a friend of mine had a Fisher tube amp that sounded absolutely amazing and I believe that power output of that amp was about 7W / channel no idea of model no.s or speaker efficiency but I remember the wattage was very low compared to modern amps at the time. Since then I've never considered how many watts an amp has and just listen to it, I want to listen to music not be deafened by it.
I have a Fisher SA 100 tube amplifier and I believe it’s like 7 watts
I bought a 30 watts rms into 8 ohms Yamaha receiver in the 80's and took it back and got the Yam R700 50 watts per channel ( but with high dynamic headroom I have read, which means they can handle peaks better) which I found gave a much bigger sound as I used it to practice my flute (usually jazz) and needed good volume to be able to hear the details well, my Yamaha also has a spacial exspander knob which I like but I know the purists don't like equalization but not all recordings are well recorded so an equalizer lets you compensate for that. I currently have some vintage AR2's with 10 inch woofers that I find are satisfying with deep bass. Not high end stuff I realize but you can have good enjoyment with a good Buick so to speak. I would rather listen to the best music on a basic stereo than boring music on the most expensive system, of course if you gave me Focal Utopia Grand EM's I would not turn them down. ;) For some reason the high end audiophiles seem to prefer the European or American amps which I don't really understand, if an amp puts out a clean signal that should be the only thing that matters. Here's a great piece of music by Hubert Laws playing Bach.... th-cam.com/video/4ud9Op1AF6A/w-d-xo.html
I use a 20w per channel NAD 310 to power a pair of vintage speakers from 1974 (complete with rubber surrounds and front-facing bass reflex ports) and it's passed all the audiophile diagnostics I've thrown at it from TH-cam. I put it down to good SNRs for the amplifier (106db), the CD player (96db) and the phono stage (80db MM, 78db MC).
I ran a Marantz 2230 for a good 10 years from 2004-2014 using a myriad of speakers, some efficient, some not and it was more than adequate for my purposes and uses. I had some inefficient as you speak mid 80 db and I could get more then enough sound using that trusty Marantz. I used to think having alot of WPC was the way to go too but you know all I ever did was pissing off neighbors, blowing drivers, and causing some hearing damage, lol. I'm now just running some old P-P EL84 stereo amplifier and could care less about ultimate audiophile grade stuff - it is how the sound is conveyed is what matters to me at this point in time. And yes - 9-12 watts of EL84 P-P power per channel gets plenty loud too!
Mr Guttenberg, my Magnepan MMGs would like to have a word with you. And I've used McIntosh
Facts!
@@Turtleback8024 not entirely....accurate. if anything maggies are relatively easy to drive. Despite, the fact everyone says they are not.
All that took is measuring amp draw, and honestly none of my maggies (I got 3 different models). Really taxes the amplifier, However, they do have low sensitivity, and like the volume to be up there at 12 o clock ..
But still never had those issue , however.i don't run them with 100w but still. Not a mcintosh or Jeff Rowland glorified welding machine either.
They are a resistive load to amplifiers, which makes them very linear on impedance. I think your arcam, had no headroom from the get go. Also I would be surprised if that amp specs 100w at the full bandwith.
My 2x18W mono blocks make my 1.6QRs shine more than the Rotel RB-1552 did. Just not at volumes which I never play anyway.
Bass I love you slowed. ;-)
I have 85dB 6 ohm (120W peak) speakers in my office stereo that I previously used a 2x30W amp on. Now I use a 2x150W amp, and it has much better control of the bass, no matter the volume level. And no need to use the tone controls either to increase the bass response, which I felt I had to on my former amp - thereby bypassing the tone controls and getting cleaner sound. In fact, they sound so good, I barely ever bother turning my 12" subwoofer on.
My main stereo consists of 90dB speakers (300W peak) and a 2x200W (400W in 4 ohm) amp. Again, I get excellent bass control at all volume levels - the previously mentioned 2x150W amp could not provide that for those speakers, at all.
Besides, having more power on tap than the speakers can handle, means your amp is far less likely to clip, and possibly blow a tweeter. I find it's much easier to find the limits of the bass drivers, since you can actually see the movement on them.
My solution was to run my preamp output into a powered subwoofer with a high pass filter to strip out the low bass frequencies before passing the mid bass and up to my Schiit Aegir (20 wats/channel, first 10 watts are class A), driving two Klipsch RB-61 II speakers in a near field setup. I never listen to anything much above 86 db, and I'm delighted with the system. Before I upgraded to the Aegir, I had the Reisong A-10 (6 watts/channel, class A), and it was pretty good, too.
Unless you're trying to incite your neighbors to burn your house down, or are running stupidly inefficient speakers, you don't need a huge amp. Get a good sub, if you gotta have gut-rattling bass, but go for quality over quantity on your main amp.
Amen, amen and amen.
If you don't wreck your ears with the 100w/channel amp you won't need the 250w/ch.
My Sansui AU-7500 claims 32w per both channels driven with real music, and with 88db/m speakers it's more than plenty loud for me. Like... real loud.
Yes some speakers need more... but not as many as you'd think, especially in an 'average' setup.
I'm a Tim Allen, more power kind of guy. In every power upgrade in my personal system, I've noticed improved control and effortlessness to the sound. An inefficient monitor speaker, and a full-range floor-stander are two completely different things when it comes to power needs. Room size, is a huge determining factor for power as well. In our store while demoing Ultima Salon 2's in our smallish Hi-fi room on a McIntosh amplifier with meters, we typically use around 20 watts of power. At home I've got the 1.3db more efficient Studio 2's, but my room is bigger and open to a hallway and dining area and I'm typically hitting 60 watts. I run McIntosh MC601's and I do like having the 600 watts on reserve, it pays off in effortlessness. It was really apparent in Car Audio, (Sound Quality not SPL) where we were shooting for around twice the watts that the speakers/drivers were rated for. It would always play cleaner with more power.
P.S. Everything I said, does not pertain to super efficient Klipsch or Zu speakers, haha. Now we want tonal quality.
Clint the Audio Guy this is my wavelength in thought too 👌👍
I've never seen a pair of MC601's in your home, nor anything close to that level. I've seen an 80 watt per channel Sony. Are you blowing smoke, Clint?
I think Clint has been called out...…………...
Speakers with such low sensitivity (85dB/1W/1M) require 3 watts at an average listening volume of 83dB, and the full 30 watt would be enough to cover peaks of up to +10dB for a total peak SPL of 93dB at the listening position. The problem is that they will need 300 watts to cover peaks hitting 103dB. So if your average listening level is higher than 83dB or if you are listening to very dynamic source material, I would say that 30 watt is not enough for those speakers. Not even close.
and then you are maxing out your amp. heating it up. are you keeping track of your heat levels while watching a movie or jaming with friends at party? probably not. amp burns up and or life is shortened by a lot.
After a period of buying more powerful amplifiers, I really got lucky and figured out what I really liked. That turned out to be lowered powered class A amps (20-25 watts).
I live in a loft - not very big but with high ceilings and a lot of air. My old Marantz 2230 always felt more than powerful enough until I moved into this space. I could still get a good volume going but I had to turn up the gain past 12 o'clock. I added a craigslist special Adcom GFA 5300 for a whopping 100 bucks - with 80w per channel I have a lot more headroom. At first I didn't think it was much louder because turning it up to 12 o'clock (using the Marantz as a preamp now) doesn't sound that much louder but at lower volumes I notice a lot more headroom and dynamics. Also I can really utilize the EQ on the Marantz without pushing the amp too hard.
I have a vintage (80's) Luxman M-02 amp with VU meters, and vividly remember the first time I noticed this. 20+ watt peaks can be plenty loud in your living room
I am a DeadHead guitar player, and Audiophile. I have been pre-amping tube fender front end into McIntosh amps for 30 years. Mc50-Mc100-Mc-2300. My weapons of choice for home stereo have been Marantz 2385-2270-2250 into JBL control monitors / Jubals. All I can say is that there is something to be said for the feel of HeadRoom !! It feels better to play, it sound better to me at low volume, and my gear last longer and does not have to work anywhere near as hard. The difference between an Mc50 and a Mc100 is night and day driving one or two JBL K-120’s. The Mc2300 into E-120’s is just a dangerous ice pick in the eye in the wrong room, great for playing outdoors, heavy as hell! Just one Deadheads opinion.
I have been of the opinion that single ended tube amplifiers, very low power, and horn speakers which are very efficient, sound best to for reproducing realistic sound. So I agree with you Steve.
Towards the end you got to the real point: higher power amps do sound better: "more ease" equals better sound. You also forgot to mention that it depends what kind of music you play. If you listen to symphonic music or other types of music with lots of dynamics, you will have a greater need for high power, and you will be more likely to notice the lack of it.
Current: it's also not just the power rating but the ability to deliver current. High current amps will sound better. Maybe your lower power amps had lots of current reserves.
Finally, cost: there are lots of very good high power amps that don't cost in the realm of your Pass Amps: NCore, Odyssey Audio, Benchmark, PS Audio, Van Alstine. These cost a small fraction of your Pass Amps and are very high quality.
Danny Hoffman
More power does not necessarily sound better. In fact with a few exceptions a lot of high wattage amps have the well earned reputation of not being "musical." Any fool designer can build a high watt amp. But design and build a 300 watt amp that sounds as good as a 50 watt amp at normal listening levels - not so easy. Yes, these monsters will sound better louder than say their lower watt counterpart but at reasonable listening levels high watt amps don't cut the mustard. They are exceptions: Conrad Johnson, Bryston and Mackie come to mind. Mackie only makes pro gear.
In the studio we need a truck load of high watt and high current amps to run the passive Far Feild Adams. Because when you are soloing the bass track at 100 db and it's a low B string (31hz fundamental) on a 5 electric bass you can never have to much power.
But tri-amplification on the Adam far feilds solves a lot of problems. The tweeter, the two 8 inch bass midrange drivers that operate in push/pull configuration and the 18 inch subwoofer all get their own 300 power mono block power amp. O.K.....I lied....The subwoofer gets two 300 watt mono blocks in bridged mode.
It’s true I have an 80 watt NAD but can throw out 200w for burst when needed. I think he was more making the point that for the price difference. Does the listener find personal value for that large difference in cost. He is saying at the price point of 4k he is happy with the sound but like he said throw more money at it and the problems go away. It’s all relative.
It kind of depends on whether you want to FEEL the bass or not 😀 Low power is completely sufficient for tweeters and midrange but for the low end (like a few hertz to 100Hz), you need a lot more power.
Which is why God made powered subwoofers.
Wow, I think that a really good 25 Watt amplifier probably has more omph than a good 100 Watt. I have a 1978 Pioneer 9500II, 80 Watt per channel, there are 2 80 Watt systems inside, that has more power than a modern general consumer integrated amplifier similarly rated. I liken this to outboard motors for boats. I was using 2 rental boats on a fishing trip. One was an absolutely beautiful 4-Stroke, 20 hp Honda. And a beat up, 25 year old 2-Stroke 10 hp Mercury that had obviously more power. My main, power boat has a 2 hp, 2-stroke Yamaha. Spend most of my time in my solo canoe.
I just bought a pair of Sonus Faber Grand Piano 6 ohm speakers rated 90 dB efficiency, replacing my old 99 dB efficiency Klipsch Heresy speakers. I was worried than my YBA Integre DT with 50 wpc into 8 ohms wouldn't have enough power to drive them with sufficient head-room. Well to my delight, the YBA amplifier has plenty of power. I use to listen to the Heresy's between 9 to 10 o'clock on the volume dial. Now with the SF's, I listen at 10 to 11 o'clock and occasionally 1/2 way. At 2 o'clock it is deafening. No need for a bigger amp! BTW, this combination sounds fabulous.
I recall Musical Fidelity explaining why you need above a certain level of power to reproduce loud peaks in a piece of music, but then a few years later they moved more towards lower watt amps. No wonder people get confused!
As long as that lower watt amp has the power to control peaks in music (of let's say.. 10x the average output), you're fine.
@@4nz-nl 'Control'? Don't you mean 'reproduce'? Why would I want to CONTROL my dynamic range?
I understand that speakers can be damaged more easily with a smaller amplifier because of signal clipping. I have a McIntosh MC2500 500-watt power amp that gives a beefier sound, not necessarily louder.
Another great presentation video that also explains a lot of real, practical facts, and clear opinions. Myself, I have a Sony receiver, STR-HD520 (of 2012) of at least 85 Watts, and sounds fine with most music, and is enough. Before, I had an Onkyo at 33 Watts per channel to 2 Forum Model 83 large bookshelf speakers that can handle 5 to 50 Watts, 40Hz to 20KHz +/- 3Db, SPL of 90Db (both of 1987). There is a difference, small as it may seem however; I notice more detail in most music, and with real instruments, too.Later I'm going to purchase a small subwoofer. Thank you, Steve for your real, clear, and logical explanation. Also, vinyl is final.
Question Steve, Does more Power/watts bring out more musical dynamics in your music ? Separates the instuments not just for loudness.
I am a 2 channel fan, I am driving my Klipsch RP 280f with 250 watts Bi amped, I am in the process of treating my room which has changed my whole listening experience. 10ft ceilings, big space to fill. My room is L shaped leading to the kitchen. 30 x 20 x 10. Appox.
Rudy R I have the same L shaped dimensions as you. I'm kinda new trying to get some good hi fidelity from my records. I got a cambridge xax35 with an old technics d202 turntable and that's all. I would really appreciate some advice, thanks.
I agree with the need of current. The specs of an amplifier can help if the power makes x2 from 8ohm to 4ohm. An other way to check the ability of delivering high current, is looking at the capacitors inside per channel. From 30.000 microfarads per channel we can expect high current delivery. Two transformers, one per channel, is also a good thing. Or a very big one. For exemple, a Marrantz PM 11S3 has 22000 microfarads per channel and one transformer. Rated 100w classe A/B 8ohms and 200w 4ohms. For speakers like BW 804D3 it's not enough. Sounds great but lakes a little of sound pressure. It works better with a Cayin H80a that has 2 transformers (dual mono design), and 60000 microfarads per channel. Rated 80w at 8ohms classe A. The 804 are 89db/1W/1m. Rated for 8ohms. But, when working, 8ohms is only an average. They go very deep when playing, to 2.1ohms!!! Meaning 1W at 8ohms from the amplifier, the same watt needs to be 4 W at 2ohms. Ohms is a value of resistance. High current needed in this case. So the sensitivity in the specs are not all. I listen at 40 to 55db in a medium/big room. (60m2). Quality of sounds has nothing to do with sound pressure. For ex: A NAD 375bee (rated 150w at 8ohms) has the same Sound pressure has the PM, but the quality of sound of the PM is far higher.
Hi Steve , 35 w p c Primaluna integrated here .Linton speakers. That's lots of juice for my 250 sq ft room. Great show !
TL;DR: I’ve worked in live and studio sound as well as putting together home systems, here’s my take.
I’ll chip in with my experience from across the spectrum from consumer audiophile to live sound and studio sound - I’ve worked with and listened to music at all stages of creating and performing it.
Lower wattage relative to speaker/driver rating will equal a more “squeezed” sound. When I was taught amp matching for PA speakers i was taught to split the difference between the continuous and the RMS value on the speaker; thus if the speaker was rated for 500/1k/2k continuous/program/peak, I’d choose an amp at 1500 watts. There’s an important second step here though: the amp was always run at max output, while output from the mix console was about -15 to -20. This allows for a cleaner sound at FOH at lower volumes.
In the studio world, I usually see evenly matched amps to speakers, though it varies a lot, and a lot of speakers are custom built and matched for which amp and power sounds best for precisely that speaker setup. The most common “generic” example I can think of would be the Yamaha NS-10 speaker, found pretty much everywhere, which is rated at 120 RMS but often driven by a Bryston 4BST which gives 250 watts. Program volume in the studio is highly variable, I personally don’t mix above about 75 dBSPL except intermittently to check the mix at a higher volume, while I know one guy who works at 85 and another who works at 95 dBSPL nearly continuously.
The conclusion I draw from this is that as long as you’re not horribly overpowering your speakers and blowing them out...it comes down to taste and use case and room. My current setup is what I could string together on very little budget, and it has to pull double duty as a surround sound setup as well; but it’s a set of Klipsch’s from the mid-nineties that I traded for some labor at the studio, an inexpensive subwoofer to go with the surround, and a Harmon-Kardon AVR1...30? I’m not looking at the system right now, but it pushes 80w/channel. Mainly what the system is, and what made it sound good, is hours and hours of adjusting the placement and the room to make it sound good. It’s not a large room but it runs in to issues, and I can’t afford the “right” treatment so the 220 hz room resonance is being fixed with a 5-gallon bucket stuffed with pillows and set in a corner, the higher frequency resonances are fixed with lining the walls with bookshelves and textiles, and the floor-to-ceiling garbage was fixed with a nice medium-pile rug. The room itself is maybe 200 square feet but it’s mostly furniture, and frankly I could spend another 10k on gear and have some improvement but the returns diminish a lot from here on out.
I must confess.......i once bi-amped my main stereo speakers, 100 for the mids and highs,100 for the lows....so i was running 4 freakin amps( insert thunder and lightning here)!!!! The sound was.......awesome(more thunder and lightning)!!!!!
So, I think it all depends. My vintage Technics SA-212, with a modest 25 watts per channel, matched up to Yamaha NS-A528’s, practically blows me out of the bedroom. But, it’s a rather small bedroom, maybe 14x12, and well, it’s a bedroom system. Where my Carver M500t, fed by an Onkyo Integra TX-870, at maybe 250 watts per channel, now with Paradigm Titan v3, and Cambridge Soundworks 8” powered sub, loves to be pushed and pushed in the living room. I don’t think one size, and one wattage, fits all applications. Really enjoyed this video.
I would tend to agree. I have and still use as a 2.1 system only a Proton AA1150
50 watt amp from the early 90’s powering Klipsch KG2 bookshelf’s and a passive BSR sub from the 80’s(the 15” driver was replaced 15 years ago due to rot)
into a high ceiling, large studio apt, and at 5-10 watts on the VU meters it’s a very decent satisfying volume. Above 10 watts and it more fills the entire room with great dynamic headroom. I almost never get to 50w or use the Power on Demand feature the unit has for short peaks.
Clean power with a short path is all I need.
Amp capability is one of the easiest things to figure out in this obsession. It either has it, or it don't.
If you love deep bass, at high volume then definitely don't wimp-out on the watts.
Most of the energy in contemporary music is in the 40-800Hz range.
Sadly only got a receiver that puts out 100 watts per channel and the subs are 600 watt each 😂 I know how to hook up an amp but it’s sounds good with movies so didn’t bother doing tht
Nah just blast them piccolos at 1000w through your 105dB PA horns bruh
I totally agreed with you. Most of the amplifier power is just wasted as heat in the voice coil...
I have a 100w per channel Technics amp from a minisystem and I connected that to a pair of B&W DM601S2 speakers, I don't think I've ever heard a PA system go that loud without clipping!
It all depends on a REALLY good power supply. A 30wpc amp with a great, well-engineered power supply will sound cleaner and more powerful than a 100wpc amp with an average quality power supply. At least when concerning amps using linear power supplies. An amp section that is a marvel of design it will never shine if it's power supply is mediocre. That's why First Watt amps sound so good. They have oustanding power supplies supporting the input and output stages.
My 1974 vintage HiFi is rated 20 Watts/channel and my 8 cubic foot speakers (3 way, dome tweeter, 15" Philips woofer) are quite efficient. There is not a Watt meter on my amp but indoors anything above 10 to 15% rattles the windows and the doors and is deafening. I once had it up to 75% volume providing music to an outdoor party in a LARGE back yard and it filled the yard with a good listening level and quality sound. If 20 Watts per channel would do that, I never saw the need to go higher. To each their own!
It's also a function of how loud you play music. If you only listen at modest levels, AND you have a modest-sized room, you'll have enough current to drive even difficult speakers to their potential in that particular circumstance. If you have a giant dedicated listening room, then you're going to need a ton of power because you're trying to pressurize a larger volume of air. The circuit doesn't end at the speaker, it ends in the room and at your ears. Most people can't afford a $250k basement listening room, so we try to make do with normal-sized rooms you would find in a normal suburban house, which require less current capability.
Thanks Steve. So the bottom line is, if it sounds good to you, what's the problem? :)
The problem comes later when your buddy point out flaws in the sound, and you struggle to UNhear them afterward.
Some never hear clipping, ever.
The heart and soul of a hi-fi system is enjoyment. What good is imaging, soundstaging, dynamics, etc., if you don't enjoy the system. Every equipment review should state first and foremost whether the reviewer enjoyed what they were hearing, and whether it enticed them to keep listening. Anything else is just extra.
I was surprise when i decided to use my preouts on my onkyo RZ840 to take some of the load off , i decided to run a separate amp for just the front left and right as i have the polk Towers tsi500 , i decided to use my very old onkyo tx 8255 that is 50 watts per channel at 0.08% Thd 2 channel tested 20hz-20khz. I was amazed at how loud and clean this amp was playing it surprise me as i though i needed 100 watts per channel to really move this towers this heafty reciver has prove my theory wrong. I never thought it was going to sound as powerful and dynamic as it sounds. So yes 50 watts of clean well build heavy transformer well desing amp using aluminum chassis ,will give you enough clean non distorted powerful sound. I agree👍
Agreed. I've always agree with less is better. I know people want high wattage amps for those hard to drive speakers. For me my Luxman 590 does it for me.
The largest peak usage I’ve seen on my high powered amp is a momentary 50 watt jump. And that is with a digital recording of The 1812 Overture where the cannon was digitized at a somewhat realistic level. The blasts show a jump to about 50 watts. With my old Yamaha M65 there is zero distortion even then. Most Classical music played at “loud” volumes requires no more than about 10 watts per channel.
While I understand 99.9% of the time I'm listening to 1 watt or less I had the opportunity to listen to an abundance of at the LA Audio Show for the last few years. Compared to my Conrad-Johnson MF2500a (240 WPC with some pretty decent current and headroom), it was pretty easy to hear smaller amplifiers running out of steam and sounding compressed.
While it's true that almost every system this year sounded like crap (that show vs. show thing resulted in almost no manufacturers being there), it's not that difficult for me to hear the benefit of having substantial power reserves. Nobody needs, or can even use 500 horsepower... but you know when it's not there. I'm not listening in a very large room nor am I trying to reshape my roof tiles into a sine wave but, at decent but responsible volume levels, that extra power just feels "relaxed."
more important than headroom is LINEAR REGION...
Whenever my mother Sue prepared a meal for company there was always more than enough food. Literally. Her philosophy was a simple one. Always make more than needed so no one left hungry. Our family ate the leftovers for lunch.
Pushing supplies to the limit is risky business, both with hungry relatives and power. What we want in a power product is called headroom, the ability of a device to exceed demand by an appreciable amount.
Headroom is important on a number of levels: lowering parts stress, relaxing audio presentation, removing strain from both the equipment and the music. If you think you need 100 watts, go for 200 to 300 instead.
It’s easy to understand too little strangles performance. The difficult argument is that bigger is better than enough. Taking your equipment right up to the edge, or anywhere even close to shore, isn’t worth the initial savings on equipment.
When it comes to deciding how big to go, more than enough should be your guiding light.
_Paul McGowan_
For a long time I ran a Nad c720 bee receiver amp with wharfedales diamond 10.1 standmounts. The nad produces only 50 watts per channel. The diamonds were also not the most efficient speakers. After a while i got really bored with my music collection. I was constantly swopping out my cds after just a few seconds of listening and nothing could keep my attention. One day I bought a Yamaha as700 amp at a discount from a local audio retailer here in Cape Town. The as700 produces about 90 watts into 8 ohm speakers. When i hooked it up to the Diamonds I almost fell off my chair. I heard new sounds emanating from the diamonds that I never heard before, even at low sound levels. I was very happy with my music again and gave the Nad away to a family member. Never again will I buy a low powered amp. If you are serious about the quality of the sound then nothing less than 90 watts per channel will do. I now use the as700 to run a pair of Castle Avon 2’s. The Nad was not capable of bringing the best out of the Avons either.
I think the best answer to that question: how much power do you need? depends on what target SPL you WANT. For instance, for orchestral music, you want the system to play at least 112 dB continuously (BTW really, I'd need it to play at 126dB if I wanna play Saint- Saens Sym No. 3). To that end, if your speakers is efficiency rated to be 96 dB@1 watt and 1 metre, then for every 3 dB louder sound level starting from the 1st watt, you need 100% more power. So to reach 112 dB, a 96dB spkr will need some power to reach an additional 16 dB. so it takes a jump of just about 3 dB X 5 = 15 dB, so as to reach that peak SPL of 112 dB. You need to use this formula I created to estimate roughly with: 2+4+8+16+32. In this, you see each number to add from the base "2" is a double jump. So there are 5 jumps. Those 5 jumps will each give a 3 dB bump. So 3 dB X 5 jumps = 15 dB. Since the last jump stops at 32, about 30-ish watts will make a 96dB efficient spkr get you about 111 dB (96dB base efficiency + 15 dB jump). And that assumes your speaker will take at least 30 watts rms. 126dB? I hear you ask. Arghhhh.......... NEXT example, my 98 dB efficient Tannoy LZM III Gold 10" minotors are rated at 15 watts rms, it can only make SPL of 98 + 12 dB jump = 110 dB. Still lose to what I need eh? Another example, my LS3/5A 65th Anni is rated at 84 dB/1 watt/1 m. And it takes 60 watts rms. So how loud will it play? That is 84 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 (watts) . I hv to stop at 64 coz that's how much power that speaker can take in rms. Easy, right? 84 + 18 dB = 102 dB. Huh, that's not even close to 110 dB of my Tannoy. That's been how I estimate my need for amp power since age 13.
For a few decades now 100 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms per channel has been the industry standard. Most people don't need 100 watts. Just like most cars don't need 300 horsepower. But it's nice to have.
100 watts gives you the extra headroom you might need just in case. Just like 300 HP gives you the extra horsepower you might need just in case.
In PA speakers where durability, volume, and clarity are very important. The rule of thumb is your amp should be twice what your speakers are. Example if you have a pair of speakers rated at 250 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms each. You should get an amplifier rated at 500 watts RMS @ 8 Ohms per channel.
The reason for this is because the amps are running the speakers at loud volumes continuously for several hours. It's also why PA amps have so much more powerful fans on them than home stereo amps.
The musicians & DJs aren't running 500 watts through those 250-watt speakers. But a 500-watt amp can easily handle whatever is needed from a 250-watt speaker.
You could power a semi-truck with a 4 cylinder engine from a VW bug. But it's more practical to put a Cummins X15 engine in there instead.
in college, i had a good jvc receiver (not audiophile stuff, but .007% thd in stereo) and a pair of cerwin vega VS 120s and a subwoofer (the subwoofer was not needed at high output on the stereo, but a bump up at low wattage).
I could close the door on my dorm room and make all of the heater covers in the entire hall (old building) rattle - audibly rattle, subwoofer turned off at that point.
I'm older now. I still have a 100 watt receiver, but I'm enamored when playing guitar with amps that are switchable and are have a 1 and 5 watt setting, and 18 watts now seems impossibly loud (maybe I"m getting older). I'm trying to resist the urge to get audiophile stereo stuff, or perhaps to build it aside from buying the amplifer and preamp to slow it down, but I know whatever I do going forward, it will be less wattage. I like the immersion, but don't have to be shellshocked and my room isn't big. Different story, I guess, if someone is sitting in a 30x50 room, but I'm not.
As the poster below mentioned, the Revel Salon2 being a full range speaker and low sensitivity NEED a powerful amp. Otherwise the sound is thin, weak. I personally use a 250 w amp for speakers with 91 dB sensitivity, so they don't require a lot of power. But what that amp gives me is pure class A up to 8-10 w output.
OK, I was using an old 180W/Ch Perreaux amp for stage foldback but it began to have popping issues when powering down (not a good sign). So, I sent it off with a friend to get serviced and repaired in another city. All I had to cover for it until I could go pick it up was a Pioneer A400x, about 60W/Ch. Well, it did the job just fine, I don't think anyone was aware of any difference. Well, I'm sure Steve knows that you need 10 times the power to double the perceived volume right so 1/3 the power isn't all that significant unless you normally drive amps near max. Not sure what the sensitivity of the speakers is but there just inexpensive floor wedges after all.
I have a pair of Elac Debut 6 2.0’s and using either a Rotel RX-1052 (100 wpc 8 ohms) or a Marantz 2325 (125 wpc), the Rotel is up to 70 of 90 to get a decent sound level in a small room, as opposed to about a quarter turn of the Marantz volume knob, and the Marantz gets a lot more low end as well. The Rotel is clearer on the mids and highs, however, and the imaging is better.
Primaluna five (36 Watts) into 86-87db speakers sounds great. Marantz 2230 also great, but I’ve always been in small rooms.
I used to run a basic audio innovations 9wpc Series 300 amp into B&W 110s, never went to full volume in my small apartment. Thing is, it showed what the musicians were actually doing. I tried more powerful, highly regarded solid state amps; they sounded detached from reality and a bit dynamically flat. So, rated at 12wpc , reviewed at 9wpc with the quote “I failed to measure any useful peak current” but sounded great with Zeppelin, Queen, Deep Purple, Copland, Beethoven..., hundreds of records and all bar a couple of 1000 CDs.
Agree with you!
Currently I'm running a pair of mid 80's KEF Coda 3's with an 87DB sensitivity with a early 80's Pioneer SX-820 (rated at 45wpc). IMO it sounds extremely nice, and warm... The speakers are happy and the receiver is too. Like you mentioned, at 3wpc its loud but not ear bleeding loud.
My other system, while not what most would call extravagant, is a Late 90's Yamaha RX-V995 Home theater unit running in Stereo mode (No DSP etc... 100wpc @ 8ohms) mated to a pair of KEF 104/2's with a 92DB sensitivity. It the best of both worlds, it performs great at low volumes but when you want to crank it up it does it very well! I'm still blown away with this combination.. the 104/2's and the Yamaha work very well together!
I notice a quite a huge difference between a 40-50w and 100 or 150w (or more) amp. Even at lower volumes. So thus was absolutely not a correct claim!
I NEED atleast 100w (I have just encreased to 150w)
Real messured watts (all ch driven, 8ohm, 20Hz-20kHz) that is! And not just the typical 1ch driven, 6ohm, 1kHz messured peak crap many manufactures use.
The more power the better because it's always good to have headroom and power for loud volumes.
SET amps with a 300B puts out about 8 watts rms per channel. My favorite push-pull tube amp puts out 12 watts rmp per channel. My speakers are rated at 88db SPL, not particularly great, but they get the job done for me.
I had a Sansui 9090 pushing very efficient speakers,101db,and 10 watts on the power meters was about all you could stand. I mean it was loud and clear, shaking the whole house. I pegged it out once over 100 watts one time ....not for the faint of heart. 30 to 60 real watts is all you need with the right speakers.