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I think Sam Harris keeps trying to test Jordan Peterson's perception of reality and science reasoning but Jordan is a science Professor of psychology, so I think Sam Harris is actually flogging a dead horse here, I don't think he's ever going to be able to prove that Jordan Peterson is blind to reality and his scientific reasoning is flawed. Jordan Peterson is by official academic standards, a man of science and psychology 👍
That is very impressive in todays ideocracy where officials can say and believe anything with no push back. I just heard a Congress person (Lauren Boebert) say at a UFO hearing that the earth is flat, Birds are robot government drones, and, we have not gone to the moon. She then proceeded to question the UFO panel about space aliens producing human alien hybrid beings and suggesting that there is an underwater space alien "base" located in the ocean. These are the same people that go home and attend church where they declare, with a total straight face, that there is an invisible sky daddy watching our every move that executed his "son" on a wooden cross and wants us all to cut off our foreskin. At what point do we get to cry out "BULLSHIT". Well done Sam.
It's not effortess. It demands a imense amount of energy and self control to have a conversation on that level. Specially with someone who is bent on not even slightly move from the non-rational ideas of religion. I admire him a lot for doing that, but I know he probably left that conversation completely exhausted.
No, direct questions should be dissected and examine. Ie what is a bicycle? Is it the grouping of elements? Is the working of elements? Surely if I showed you a bicycle frame you’d say it was a bicycle but if I showed you a bicycle chain or handle bars you would not say it is a bicycle. 9:02
I think the blunt answer to Peterson wondering why people would criticize his extended and circuitous way of answering a question like "Do you believe that Jesus was raised from the dead?" is that people like him and like Ben Shapiro are now celebrities with followings/supporters that assure them continued income flow and therefore we are quite justified in suspecting that he is being intentionally opaque in order not to alienate a significant number of those followers. I'd like to hear if he can refute that suspicion.
Peterson is incredible, he'll make a thousand assertions based on nothing, then question the very possibility of anything meaning anything when faced with any rebuttals or opposing ideas. All he does is engage in bad faith arguments, sophistry, and using every single logical fallacy known to man, and then some.
Emmo was on to something... Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. -emo
@@kdee8166 I think he means the metaphysical representation of Job within the moral substrate, bordering on what Nietzsche called incommensurate, leaving the observer perplexed at a more derivative nomenclature in a post-modern nihilist landscape, if you will.
Jordan: "I'm not evading the question, it's just a really complicated question!" Really, Jordan? Denouncing that a dead body can come back to life days later is a complicated thing? Jordan really just wants to appeal to the philosophical idea that Jesus was ressurrected because many people believed in it and were moved by that notion, but he can't get away with that with Sam and he knows, which is why he isn't going there.
Chopra and Peterson are the World Famous Word-spaghetti Monsters, and Peterson saying "bloody" and the audience applauding is the measure of modern monkey intellect.
I think this is the problem with this debate. Sam is talking about causality and logic. Peterson talks about phenology which is the level above it which is the human perspective. They are in completely different pages.
@@joemiller7082 What is Jordan getting wrong? Stop trying to win the argument and try to represent the other sides argument to the point where they agree with your summary.
U know, people say, 'Clean your room,' but these same people don’t realize their psychological room is in total disarray. They’re walking existential messes. It’s like organizing your sock drawer while your house is on fire and saying, ‘Well, at least I have a good pair of wool socks for the apocalypse.’ And honestly, if that doesn’t sound like Jordan Peterson himself, I don’t know what does.
Judging people by if they made their bed or cleaned room today is maybe worse stupidity than woke ideology. It doesn't matter anymore what is in your soul, what books, movies, tv shows and songs you enjoy, today it became important only how you look and how high your socio-economic status is. Art is being treated as less important than engineering by our society. Our collective consciousness is in a mental abyss, but we will ask what's wrong with this world and who's to blame?
I don’t think that’s the point. The point is if you see something wrong and in need of attention try to fix it. You may fail, or you may be wrong, but you will learn in the process of doing that, you may be picking the wrong thing to fix but you’ll realize that in the the process of fixing it.
I don't think you understand what "clean your room means", it doesn't mean have limited or conservative thoughts. Petersons mind goes in 1000 different directions, that has nothing to do with your temperament or anxiety or confidence whatever it is you're supposed to resolve by cleaning your room. It's simply a sign of a curious mind
Jordan is smart enough to know he's not smart enough to equally debate someone like Sam Harris. He talks to talk to appear as if he's adding value to the topic...
Peterson: "you can't expect me to answer that directly, I have to milk my non-answer _for years_ , in fact I've just written a new book about 'grappling with gaawd' or something, carefully written to let my fans think I agree with them."
My condensed version of Peterson's apologetics is something on the lines of "I'm too depressed, and everybody else is too stupid, to function without a religious creed, and Christianity seems innocuous compared to Islam and the cult of the rainbow coalition, so to hell with integrity...I'm cutting me a slice of the Nazarene cheese, and you can't stop me."
WOW! Ask the voices in your head what they want you to do and you are willing to accept any answer that manifests itself? People like that need to be locked up for their and everyone else's safety!
One of my old friends left their keys on a pew in a Lutheran church and thought it was a sign from God to convert to the denomination. Some people are looking for signs in everything.
@@wintergloom5695 When I was in Uni, one afternoon as the sun was setting, the sunlight intersected a tree branch outside the window and cast a moving shimmering shadow on the wall, and one of our fellow students jumped up, and pointing at the shadow, screamed, "There's Jesus, there's Jesus". Turns out he hadn't taken his psychiatric meds in awhile...
@@johnwinnerdz1In the Christian faith yes, it would be hard to argue that isn't entirely consistent with the theology. Any normative usage of the word "prayer" involves supplication to some supernatural power. It isn't just asking yourself a question as Peterson tried to slime.
I work with young men for a while now. Before that I used to be baffled by how a buffoon like Peterson could have possibly gained such a great following. But through my experiences with my fresh outta highschool coworkers I've realized that they're just very easily impressed. I consider myself average accross the board. The other day I was talking about superconductivity with another older coworker, while some of our apprentices were close by. Of course what they found interesting was the part about the potential money you could make with that technology. So they wrote me the following night a dozen messages saying all the same, how I could make this with all of my knowledge. I am just some guy with decent expertise in one field (electrical engines) and a solid general education. If I had a degree like Peterson to hold over them, I could probably pursue the same carreer path as him or successfully convince them of the flat earth 😂
Sorry, Jodan, but you really ARE evading the answer about whether Jesus rose from the dead. And I think it's pretty clear why: because your position effectively depends on the support of a lot of people who desperately want the magical elements of Christianity to be both true AND intellectually respectable/defensible. A straightforward, "no, of course not" would certainly alienate them, whereas endless waffling and ducking and diving and avoiding a direct answer gives them hope.
@@mcoo465Burden of proof lies on the side of the believers, so they have to prove everything they claim is true about the things that their religion says. Until today, they couldn't prove a single thing (even if we accept that Jesus may have existed as a person in history), and they definitely will never will, so all they can do is keep dictating the Bible in an attempt to prove the Bible itself. 😂😂😂
@@mcoo465 Well, apart from the fact that proving a negative is inherently difficult (as in "Prove to me that there are no unicorns"), we could make the same challenge from the other end: "You're saying that Jesus DID raise up from the dead? Prove it." It's equally futile, wouldn't you say? In such cases, it makes sense to use one's experience and knowledge of the world to evaluate the claim, which is rather what Sam Harris did. This approach is where we get the phrase: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Which you don't have. You're welcome to believe what you want. You're just not welcome to claim that your belief is more sensible or has more (or even equal) logical or experiential force than a lack of belief.
If you've done something you know is wrong why pray for a way to fix it? If I steal your car and I know it's wrong (a presupposition of Jordan's example) I know that returning it will - at least in part - fix my wrongdoing. Why is praying for an answer I already know helpful or even necessary?
For religious fundamentalists, they aren’t praying to their god to fix them, they are praying for a way to be absolved of their problematic decisions in life. It’s not about other people’s well-being the vast majority of the time, it’s about what they want and how to still get this made up afterlife, because having their real life, just isn’t enough for them. They’ve often crapped up their lives and reputation significantly, because they treat all others as beneath themselves. They want an eternal perfect life for themselves and that rarely if ever takes into consideration the ‘others’ around them. In their view of the afterlife, a fundamentalist is picturing being served by inferiors. Hence the example of the Muslim suicide bombers being serviced by their, what is it, 52 sex slaves? It never crosses their mind how the women feel. This is true in the other patriarchal views and interpretations of so many other religions. It’s all made up to gain control of the Sheep like followers who have been taught to think that way- that they need a Shepard. Grown adults that have been taught all their lives, to solve their problems through prayer and worship, dont ever learn how to actually or efficiently solve problems.
Jordan Petersons tactics: Going round the merry. Only praise questions or statements that confirms religious viewpoints, doesnt mean its true. Snorts crack/cocaine with his irratic movements, adhd interruptions and movements and sweating. Likes to avert questions by moving the point to subquestions with difficult words and wants to focus on his questions. Doesnt want to answer questions, rather wants to lead the conversation without taking his time to absorb the information. Aka instantly reacts with either a offtopic question or something nuanced in the same genre. Jordan is your typical narcisst.
Dara O Brien said it best . "Science knows it doesnt know everything , otherwise it would stop" And i think another thing he said was "just because you dont know something , doesnt mean you can just fill it up with any bullshit you want"
watching Peterson converse is like watching the movie "Contact" with Jodi Foster. You start of hoping to get answers to questions that everyone has, in the middle you feels as if you are about to truly "understand" or go deep into the foundation of a great mystery and at the end you are exactly where you left off, but having taken the journey you feel as if you accomplished something profound...though are not sure what. When he first became a topic i didn't pay much attention to him. I noticed him suddenly, having risen to a person that should be asked about the war in Ukraine, and i though, well he must be someone to pay attention to. Then later I seen him attempting to tell people that how he thought was the only way that could be right with Dillahunty, a conversation with "Destiny", which in my opinion was completely absurd and showed that all you have to do to elicit an aggravated response from Peterson was to talk fast. Finally during a conversation with Sam Harris, of who he asked, asserted and assumed, he himself would not truly engage in the conversation. In all three "conversations", I don't really think he thought of them as debates but rather a way to show that he understood the person he was across from. The words "Supposition" and "Conjecture" repeatedly come to mind when i think about Peterson because the only assertions and absolutes you can get from him have to do with the things that we all go through, ask he a direct question about his foundations and you get nothing solid. On the other hand being "Pigeon-Holed" is just as absurd, so though i dont like how he does things, i can see why he refuses to fully define the ground that he stands on. "Its hard to tread on ground you can't see"-something I imagine Peterson would say
From what I have seen throughout my life (I am 72 years old) is that God wants all within his purported creation, as suggested by his religious minions, is certain horrible suffering and death.
It’s a death cult many have said. The Bible and many holy books are made to easier brainwash people, either into being a good warrior for the emperor or King, or being good loyal, obedient Sheep like followers for the religious hierarchy. It’s mostly about control over the masses. To the men in charge, the vast majority of them view their community as people that they can use to their own ends, to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their psychopathy. It’s all about how much control they want or can get over their indoctrinated fellow men, women and of course, the children. The children are their future minions and must be fear mongered to and false promised to, early on. I think the Bible recommends no later than their seventh year before critical thinking and reasoning start to set in.
The fact that JP thinks that he provided here an instance of prayer that worked shows you what a limited intellect he has. He's completely delusional fooling only himself about the evidence he claims to provide.
@ I guess I don’t really know. But I am pretty convinced that Jordan is more of an intuitive thinker, rather than a concrete one, and he does try to follow Sam’s sequence of logic. But I think it’s hard for Jordan to do so. But I believe at the end of the day Jordan’s goal is to learn from others, modify his own views and arrive at a logically sound argument that both parties can agree upon.
@@riesweetandsour OK so how did you come to that conclusion? Because by watching him I've come to the exact opposite conclusion which is that Jordan Peterson actually doesn't have a clue about most of the things he talks about and instead inserts random misquoted quotes or misremembered facts from people much smarter than him into his gobbledygook word salads that only ever expose his lack of knowledge on a topic. Do you know what a smart person does when asked a question they know the answer to? They answer it Do you know what a smart person does when asked a question the don't know the answer to? They say they don't know and wait with baited breath for someone who does know to answer it. Do you know what Peterson does when presented with any question whatsoever? Goes off on a 5 minute long completely unrelated tangent while avoiding the question like Trump avoiding the draft. Peterson isn't a smart man. In fact the smartest thing Peterson ever did was realise just how easy Christians and aloha males are to con out of their hard earned cash and start grifting them.
@ yea I hear you. I judge his intentions based on his books, lectures and other debates. I mean the definition of “smart” is subjective too. And I know many other intuitive men whom I consider to be “smart” and I’m a concrete thinker (or an introverted sensing type per Carl Jung), so they always have a tough time following a sequence of logic. But they tend to excel at creative ideas and pattern recognition which is a different kind of smart than concrete thinking.
Peterson can't help himself but to interrupt all the time, he has no self control, explains the benzos I guess. And his ego is so fragile he can't even handle an applause break of Sam's without having to address it😂
JP’s greatest fear is losing supporters. He is a fence sitter extraordinaire. He knows saying anything negative about Christianity would affect his media revenue through loss of his right wing support. He’s not that smart but he’s also no dummy. It’s really that simple.
I still don't know what Peterson truly believes, but as Sam points out, when it comes to concepts such as good and evil, why is there variation of beliefs on this subject? Why, when the supreme being himself ( obviously the Christian god of the bible) actually came down to earth and laid down the law, why do we have cultures and other religions with vastly different structures and precepts?
'evil is just ignorance' -- ' you haven't met any evil people if you believe that'. I guess Jordan P hasn't read Hannah Arendy's 'Eichmann in Jerusalem'
To deny catholicism its write full place in christianity is to miss out on its history however bloody or painful it was. It gives us greater understanding in its evolution towards modern bible reading of evwryday folk.
And intellectual debate is having a lively conversation for 3 hours and not moving the topic one inch forward of backwards... Its all about listening to the sound of your own voice.
I'd pay to watch a Chopra vs. Peterson debate, two titans of vapidness, between the two of them they are so full of it they could fertilize the Sahara Desert.
It's interesting how Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, O'Connor etc manage to remain so cool and courteous when being shouted down by the likes of Peterson and Piers Morgan. "If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do." Bertrand Russell
I remember in Peterson's Bible lectures, the old ones. There was a heavy import on Crime and Punishment and Nietzsche's "God is dead" philosophy. He noted that Nietzsche wasn't celebrating the death of religion but rather that we are dependent upon religion for human society, civility, decency, etc. That Nietzsche predicted cults and Nazism, etc, that we would be lost without the structure of organized religion. Now, years later, he's almost trying to argue that we need religion to be good people. It seems like he's playing out some kind of attempt to save humanity from Nietzsche's prediction and from the scenario of Crime and Punishment, which could maybe be classified as a post modern psychologically dystopian novel. Though I've never finished that book nor read or studied Nietzsche
Jordan has a great talent for distracting and conveniently changing the subject. But Harris always lets him finish and then says; yeah, ok, but back to my original point….!
Checked out 1:06 very scary thought to be approaching 50 yrs of age and you still don’t know where anything comes from. Approaching the later stage of life and you still don’t know who you are what you are why you are your purpose or where your going?!!! That is very terrifying with love and respect family. Jesus is the way the truth the good life I promise you. You can only experience real love joy peace hope endurance and eternal life through the Father. ❤️
While often associated with nihilism, Nietzsche did not see it as a final state, but rather a transitional period where people would have to confront the lack of objective meaning before actively creating their own values. Nietzsche criticized what he called "slave morality," (which he associated with Christianity) which he saw as a system of values based on resentment and weakness, further contributing to the sense of meaninglessness. Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy Among philosophers, Friedrich Nietzsche is most often associated with nihilism. For Nietzsche, there is no objective order or structure in the world except what... Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Prayer is in intention, a consideration, a postulate, and the universe answers our intentions, considerations, postulates. it just does, for better or worse, call it God, or how the laws of the laws of manifestation in this universe works, but it works. But the universe only reads our unconscious minds, unless we are free of its influence on us. If you feel the need to pray its because the unconscious mind is in control and you don't want it to be. The universe reads our fears, doubts, and grants our wishes.
The idea doesn't go away. I can tell you why it doesn't go away. Who would kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It not only supports a multi-billion dollar industry in the US and a Caliphate in Rome, but it also provides a means of control. It helps fund political campaigns and certain political belief systems attempt to lend themselves divinity through it.
Ppl, by and large, need to be told a simple story about life that gives them meaning, purpose, and hope for after death. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They will find one they like, usually the one they are born into, then defend it ferociously the rest of their lives with all kinds of apologetics, archetypal significance, hidden esoteric meanings, and outright denials of logic reason, and reality.
Ok. Take someone like Joseph Campbell who understood myth and considered it an essential component of living a life. But Campbell was clear, as I recall, that literal interpretation of religion was not true. So what could Peterson's monumental work be? Obfuscation?
That’s a comment right from the JP playbook if ever I’ve heard one. Heavy with personal knowledge. Light on explanation. Presumably it would take you 40 hours to begin to explain why the work is monumental and never get round to explaining how you know that most people will magically realise it “later in life”. Will Jesus have returned by this indeterminate future date?
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I think Sam Harris keeps trying to test Jordan Peterson's perception of reality and science reasoning but Jordan is a science Professor of psychology, so I think Sam Harris is actually flogging a dead horse here, I don't think he's ever going to be able to prove that Jordan Peterson is blind to reality and his scientific reasoning is flawed. Jordan Peterson is by official academic standards, a man of science and psychology 👍
Sam cuts through the bullshit so effortlessly. It’s impressive.
That is very impressive in todays ideocracy where officials can say and believe anything with no push back. I just heard a Congress person (Lauren Boebert) say at a UFO hearing that the earth is flat, Birds are robot government drones, and, we have not gone to the moon. She then proceeded to question the UFO panel about space aliens producing human alien hybrid beings and suggesting that there is an underwater space alien "base" located in the ocean. These are the same people that go home and attend church where they declare, with a total straight face, that there is an invisible sky daddy watching our every move that executed his "son" on a wooden cross and wants us all to cut off our foreskin. At what point do we get to cry out "BULLSHIT". Well done Sam.
I don't know it's bullshit, but rather a conversation where logic is valid but doesn't mean it's right.
@@missionpupa That sounds a lot like Jordan Peterson bullshit.
@@AzimuthTao what is bullshit exactly?
It's not effortess. It demands a imense amount of energy and self control to have a conversation on that level. Specially with someone who is bent on not even slightly move from the non-rational ideas of religion. I admire him a lot for doing that, but I know he probably left that conversation completely exhausted.
Jordon said he’s getting tired and I’m so tired of him.
The greatest fear that Peterson has is to be asked a direct question.
Or perhaps it's a demand to answer a direct question directly.
but he demands it with a sneer when asking questions
Tea or coffee, Mr Peterson? "Well, that depends on what you mean by or..."
No, direct questions should be dissected and examine. Ie what is a bicycle? Is it the grouping of elements? Is the working of elements? Surely if I showed you a bicycle frame you’d say it was a bicycle but if I showed you a bicycle chain or handle bars you would not say it is a bicycle. 9:02
Harris assumes an end. Peterson is exploring it.
JP just can't shut his mouth! Constantly interrupts and then mindlessly drags the discussion into some minutia!
Count how many times Sam said something like "... so getting back to the topic..." after yet another detour by Peterson.
He likes to sound intelligent while saying nothing at all.
it's not really mindless. he does that deliberately in order to avoid being exposed as the charlatain he is
@@rlsxs4ever💯
His whole schtick is nothing but intellectual word salad.
I think the blunt answer to Peterson wondering why people would criticize his extended and circuitous way of answering a question like "Do you believe that Jesus was raised from the dead?" is that people like him and like Ben Shapiro are now celebrities with followings/supporters that assure them continued income flow and therefore we are quite justified in suspecting that he is being intentionally opaque in order not to alienate a significant number of those followers. I'd like to hear if he can refute that suspicion.
JP can't even utter a complete sentence without interrupting himself.
Peterson is incredible, he'll make a thousand assertions based on nothing, then question the very possibility of anything meaning anything when faced with any rebuttals or opposing ideas. All he does is engage in bad faith arguments, sophistry, and using every single logical fallacy known to man, and then some.
"I prayed and asked God for a new bike, bug I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike instead and asked for forgiveness." -emo philips
Emmo was on to something...
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. -emo
this is a really good point
Harris has the patience of Job. I think that's the correct analogy.
Damn, I just left the same comment without seeing yours
The archetypal Job ?
@@kdee8166 I think he means the metaphysical representation of Job within the moral substrate, bordering on what Nietzsche called incommensurate, leaving the observer perplexed at a more derivative nomenclature in a post-modern nihilist landscape, if you will.
Jordan: "I'm not evading the question, it's just a really complicated question!"
Really, Jordan? Denouncing that a dead body can come back to life days later is a complicated thing?
Jordan really just wants to appeal to the philosophical idea that Jesus was ressurrected because many people believed in it and were moved by that notion, but he can't get away with that with Sam and he knows, which is why he isn't going there.
Jordan Peterson’s mantra: “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bullsh-t.”
BUT MAH METAPHYSICAL SUBSTRATE...!
@@Sauvenil
Inside the moral landscape, man!
Religion is based on geography.
Atheism is based on rationale & reason.
I can’t for the life of me understand what JP stands for, he is all over and no where, simultaneously
He admitted it to Joe Rogan. He said he'd found a way to monetize the 'alt-right'
Conservatism. That's it. Resisting change, whether it's relating to gender, society or belief systems. A blind, stubborn defence of tradition.
Chopra and Peterson are the World Famous Word-spaghetti Monsters, and Peterson saying "bloody" and the audience applauding is the measure of modern monkey intellect.
He does that when he is in a logic hole
Jordan Peterson: I am going to look for any contorted argument that fits my conclusion. Intellectual garbage.
It's what religion is based on.
Debating religion is madness it'll take you nowhere. Understanding what religion is and what it's made up of, that's all you need to know
I think this is the problem with this debate.
Sam is talking about causality and logic. Peterson talks about phenology which is the level above it which is the human perspective. They are in completely different pages.
Peterson has continued to erode his own arguments.
Why don’t you explain how instead of just saying it.
@@Earthad23on a mechanical level, his interrupting is so bad that he interrupts himself to make a different point
@@Olyfrun You’re ignoring the substance of the conversation.
@@Earthad23 why don’t you see it without his explanation?
@@joemiller7082 What is Jordan getting wrong? Stop trying to win the argument and try to represent the other sides argument to the point where they agree with your summary.
U know, people say, 'Clean your room,' but these same people don’t realize their psychological room is in total disarray. They’re walking existential messes. It’s like organizing your sock drawer while your house is on fire and saying, ‘Well, at least I have a good pair of wool socks for the apocalypse.’ And honestly, if that doesn’t sound like Jordan Peterson himself, I don’t know what does.
Judging people by if they made their bed or cleaned room today is maybe worse stupidity than woke ideology. It doesn't matter anymore what is in your soul, what books, movies, tv shows and songs you enjoy, today it became important only how you look and how high your socio-economic status is. Art is being treated as less important than engineering by our society. Our collective consciousness is in a mental abyss, but we will ask what's wrong with this world and who's to blame?
I don’t think that’s the point. The point is if you see something wrong and in need of attention try to fix it.
You may fail, or you may be wrong, but you will learn in the process of doing that, you may be picking the wrong thing to fix but you’ll realize that in the the process of fixing it.
I don't think you understand what "clean your room means", it doesn't mean have limited or conservative thoughts. Petersons mind goes in 1000 different directions, that has nothing to do with your temperament or anxiety or confidence whatever it is you're supposed to resolve by cleaning your room. It's simply a sign of a curious mind
@@Pigling-d4e
Talking about making a mess of things...
peterson's finger gestures alone are enough to signal that he is "wizarding" in his attempts to draw a following.
Jordan is smart enough to know he's not smart enough to equally debate someone like Sam Harris. He talks to talk to appear as if he's adding value to the topic...
Jordan's the neighborhood kid who had the most playing cards in his bicycle wheels.
@@brentwalker8596 LOL great analogy!
Peterson: "you can't expect me to answer that directly, I have to milk my non-answer _for years_ , in fact I've just written a new book about 'grappling with gaawd' or something, carefully written to let my fans think I agree with them."
No wonder Peterson is bat shit crazy if that’s how he’s been getting his direction.
JP talking shite again.
It would be nice to have a nice creamy topping for JORDANS word salad!
Peterson needs to get his head out of Nietzsche ass for a breath of fresh air, that Harris is desperately trying to supply/
@richardowen2087 id say Jordy's head (to the waist) is up Dostoevsky's 🍑
Peterson is like a man with a fork living in a world of soup
@ryan...
OMG l love you're analogy!!!! Brill!!!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This is brilliant and, now i need a place to use it 😂
Jordan, don't embarrass yourself by sparring with Sam Harris. It's a losing proposition.
I almost feel bad for Jordan 😂 he sounds so dejected when he asks why everyone is clapping.
Never mess with Sam Harris , He will take you to the shed !!!
"I looked at systems and patterns and saw the grifting was best with the Christians," Jordan Peterson probably.
Yes. Have you seen his gloss on Trump's cabinet picks? He's become ludicrous boot licker.
My condensed version of Peterson's apologetics is something on the lines of "I'm too depressed, and everybody else is too stupid, to function without a religious creed, and Christianity seems innocuous compared to Islam and the cult of the rainbow coalition, so to hell with integrity...I'm cutting me a slice of the Nazarene cheese, and you can't stop me."
Peterson is pointing out objective moral truths, nothing more.
@@Earthad23it is not objective if it depends on a god. That is not how objectivity works
@@Earthad23 Can you describe these 'Moral Truths' in your own words, preferably in fewer words than Peterson uses?
Jordan just admitted that he will believe whatever his imagination tells him. Fool.
And worse, act on it! Same idea behind 9/11.
Which part did he say this?
@@missionpupa so tragic that buffoons like you live in a black and white world, unable to read between the lines.
That is how he operates, so when you have negotiated your way through all of his word salad, you realise that he is full of shit
What do you believe? That you’re a mistaken artifact of the physical world? Derp
JP was so fluid in his position that he constantly slides into the opposite position without his knowledge.
WOW! Ask the voices in your head what they want you to do and you are willing to accept any answer that manifests itself? People like that need to be locked up for their and everyone else's safety!
One of my old friends left their keys on a pew in a Lutheran church and thought it was a sign from God to convert to the denomination. Some people are looking for signs in everything.
@@wintergloom5695 When I was in Uni, one afternoon as the sun was setting, the sunlight intersected a tree branch outside the window and cast a moving shimmering shadow on the wall, and one of our fellow students jumped up, and pointing at the shadow, screamed, "There's Jesus, there's Jesus".
Turns out he hadn't taken his psychiatric meds in awhile...
Prayer is asking God to change his plan
Really ?
@@johnwinnerdz1In the Christian faith yes, it would be hard to argue that isn't entirely consistent with the theology.
Any normative usage of the word "prayer" involves supplication to some supernatural power. It isn't just asking yourself a question as Peterson tried to slime.
Wow, “give me one minute to answer” after 15 minutes of him talking over Harris. 🙄
I'm confident that a lot of prison inmates "listened to the voices in their head".
I work with young men for a while now.
Before that I used to be baffled by how a buffoon like Peterson could have possibly gained such a great following. But through my experiences with my fresh outta highschool coworkers I've realized that they're just very easily impressed. I consider myself average accross the board. The other day I was talking about superconductivity with another older coworker, while some of our apprentices were close by. Of course what they found interesting was the part about the potential money you could make with that technology. So they wrote me the following night a dozen messages saying all the same, how I could make this with all of my knowledge. I am just some guy with decent expertise in one field (electrical engines) and a solid general education. If I had a degree like Peterson to hold over them, I could probably pursue the same carreer path as him or successfully convince them of the flat earth 😂
Exactly.
How does Peterson get tired in a 2 hour debate? Everyone else seems fine.
Sorry, Jodan, but you really ARE evading the answer about whether Jesus rose from the dead. And I think it's pretty clear why: because your position effectively depends on the support of a lot of people who desperately want the magical elements of Christianity to be both true AND intellectually respectable/defensible. A straightforward, "no, of course not" would certainly alienate them, whereas endless waffling and ducking and diving and avoiding a direct answer gives them hope.
You’re saying Jesus Christ did NOT raise up from the dead?
Prove it
@@mcoo465Burden of proof lies on the side of the believers, so they have to prove everything they claim is true about the things that their religion says. Until today, they couldn't prove a single thing (even if we accept that Jesus may have existed as a person in history), and they definitely will never will, so all they can do is keep dictating the Bible in an attempt to prove the Bible itself. 😂😂😂
@@mcoo465 Well, apart from the fact that proving a negative is inherently difficult (as in "Prove to me that there are no unicorns"), we could make the same challenge from the other end: "You're saying that Jesus DID raise up from the dead? Prove it." It's equally futile, wouldn't you say? In such cases, it makes sense to use one's experience and knowledge of the world to evaluate the claim, which is rather what Sam Harris did. This approach is where we get the phrase: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Which you don't have. You're welcome to believe what you want. You're just not welcome to claim that your belief is more sensible or has more (or even equal) logical or experiential force than a lack of belief.
Peterson just keeps digging a hole despite Sam’s best efforts to take his shovel away.
Jordan "it's not so obvious" Peterson
Jordan "it's not so obvious to me, so it musn't be obvious to everybody" peterson.
I thought his middle name was "hierarchy" or maybe "substrate"
Sam has the patience of Job. Jordan is insufferable
JP = Word Salad King…..
Word salad you mean
If you've done something you know is wrong why pray for a way to fix it? If I steal your car and I know it's wrong (a presupposition of Jordan's example) I know that returning it will - at least in part - fix my wrongdoing. Why is praying for an answer I already know helpful or even necessary?
If you need a book to structure your life then you're already lost.
For religious fundamentalists, they aren’t praying to their god to fix them, they are praying for a way to be absolved of their problematic decisions in life. It’s not about other people’s well-being the vast majority of the time, it’s about what they want and how to still get this made up afterlife, because having their real life, just isn’t enough for them. They’ve often crapped up their lives and reputation significantly, because they treat all others as beneath themselves. They want an eternal perfect life for themselves and that rarely if ever takes into consideration the ‘others’ around them. In their view of the afterlife, a fundamentalist is picturing being served by inferiors. Hence the example of the Muslim suicide bombers being serviced by their, what is it, 52 sex slaves? It never crosses their mind how the women feel. This is true in the other patriarchal views and interpretations of so many other religions. It’s all made up to gain control of the Sheep like followers who have been taught to think that way- that they need a Shepard. Grown adults that have been taught all their lives, to solve their problems through prayer and worship, dont ever learn how to actually or efficiently solve problems.
Every time Peterson opens his mouth, he makes a fool of himself, and he seems to know it. Sam Harris is the vastly superior intellect.
When Jordan starts throwing high-pitched "bloody" around, he's usually being self-righteously defensive to cover-up his own doubts.
Peterson gets so upset when he doesn’t understand why the audience is clapping
Jordan Petersons tactics: Going round the merry.
Only praise questions or statements that confirms religious viewpoints, doesnt mean its true.
Snorts crack/cocaine with his irratic movements, adhd interruptions and movements and sweating.
Likes to avert questions by moving the point to subquestions with difficult words and wants to focus on his questions.
Doesnt want to answer questions, rather wants to lead the conversation without taking his time to absorb the information. Aka instantly reacts with either a offtopic question or something nuanced in the same genre.
Jordan is your typical narcisst.
Dara O Brien said it best . "Science knows it doesnt know everything , otherwise it would stop"
And i think another thing he said was "just because you dont know something , doesnt mean you can just fill it up with any bullshit you want"
peterson's finger gestures alone are enough to signal that he is "wizarding" in his attempts to draw a following.
watching Peterson converse is like watching the movie "Contact" with Jodi Foster. You start of hoping to get answers to questions that everyone has, in the middle you feels as if you are about to truly "understand" or go deep into the foundation of a great mystery and at the end you are exactly where you left off, but having taken the journey you feel as if you accomplished something profound...though are not sure what. When he first became a topic i didn't pay much attention to him. I noticed him suddenly, having risen to a person that should be asked about the war in Ukraine, and i though, well he must be someone to pay attention to. Then later I seen him attempting to tell people that how he thought was the only way that could be right with Dillahunty, a conversation with "Destiny", which in my opinion was completely absurd and showed that all you have to do to elicit an aggravated response from Peterson was to talk fast. Finally during a conversation with Sam Harris, of who he asked, asserted and assumed, he himself would not truly engage in the conversation. In all three "conversations", I don't really think he thought of them as debates but rather a way to show that he understood the person he was across from. The words "Supposition" and "Conjecture" repeatedly come to mind when i think about Peterson because the only assertions and absolutes you can get from him have to do with the things that we all go through, ask he a direct question about his foundations and you get nothing solid. On the other hand being "Pigeon-Holed" is just as absurd, so though i dont like how he does things, i can see why he refuses to fully define the ground that he stands on. "Its hard to tread on ground you can't see"-something I imagine Peterson would say
Peterson, "Blah blah blah..." Harris, BAAA-ZING!
FINALLY! Well done at the end there, Sam!
For the Christian, who needs enemies when you have friends like Peterson.
"I was as clear as I could possibly be..." JP couldn't be more accurate in his self-owning response.
From what I have seen throughout my life (I am 72 years old) is that God wants all within his purported creation, as suggested by his religious minions, is certain horrible suffering and death.
I mean that does track with the bible tbh
It’s a death cult many have said. The Bible and many holy books are made to easier brainwash people, either into being a good warrior for the emperor or King, or being good loyal, obedient Sheep like followers for the religious hierarchy. It’s mostly about control over the masses.
To the men in charge, the vast majority of them view their community as people that they can use to their own ends, to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their psychopathy. It’s all about how much control they want or can get over their indoctrinated fellow men, women and of course, the children. The children are their future minions and must be fear mongered to and false promised to, early on. I think the Bible recommends no later than their seventh year before critical thinking and reasoning start to set in.
The fact that JP thinks that he provided here an instance of prayer that worked shows you what a limited intellect he has. He's completely delusional fooling only himself about the evidence he claims to provide.
Thoughts and prayers for JP. Lol.
Sam Harris wins hands down.
I know Jordan is genuine, but he just spends so much time passionately answering the questions that were not asked.
Genuinely disingenuous. He is the 21st century snake-oil salesman
How do you *_KNOW_* Jordan is genuine?
@ I guess I don’t really know. But I am pretty convinced that Jordan is more of an intuitive thinker, rather than a concrete one, and he does try to follow Sam’s sequence of logic. But I think it’s hard for Jordan to do so. But I believe at the end of the day Jordan’s goal is to learn from others, modify his own views and arrive at a logically sound argument that both parties can agree upon.
@@riesweetandsour OK so how did you come to that conclusion? Because by watching him I've come to the exact opposite conclusion which is that Jordan Peterson actually doesn't have a clue about most of the things he talks about and instead inserts random misquoted quotes or misremembered facts from people much smarter than him into his gobbledygook word salads that only ever expose his lack of knowledge on a topic.
Do you know what a smart person does when asked a question they know the answer to? They answer it
Do you know what a smart person does when asked a question the don't know the answer to? They say they don't know and wait with baited breath for someone who does know to answer it.
Do you know what Peterson does when presented with any question whatsoever? Goes off on a 5 minute long completely unrelated tangent while avoiding the question like Trump avoiding the draft.
Peterson isn't a smart man. In fact the smartest thing Peterson ever did was realise just how easy Christians and aloha males are to con out of their hard earned cash and start grifting them.
@ yea I hear you. I judge his intentions based on his books, lectures and other debates. I mean the definition of “smart” is subjective too. And I know many other intuitive men whom I consider to be “smart” and I’m a concrete thinker (or an introverted sensing type per Carl Jung), so they always have a tough time following a sequence of logic. But they tend to excel at creative ideas and pattern recognition which is a different kind of smart than concrete thinking.
Peterson can't help himself but to interrupt all the time, he has no self control, explains the benzos I guess. And his ego is so fragile he can't even handle an applause break of Sam's without having to address it😂
JP’s greatest fear is losing supporters. He is a fence sitter extraordinaire. He knows saying anything negative about Christianity would affect his media revenue through loss of his right wing support. He’s not that smart but he’s also no dummy. It’s really that simple.
"We don't know where anything comes from" while Peterson defends the existence of God.......
I still don't know what Peterson truly believes, but as Sam points out, when it comes to concepts such as good and evil, why is there variation of beliefs on this subject? Why, when the supreme being himself ( obviously the Christian god of the bible) actually came down to earth and laid down the law, why do we have cultures and other religions with vastly different structures and precepts?
15:50 "I was as clear as I could possibly be" Holy cow I don't want to know what "not being clear" means for JP
I love how Peterson swears when he feels he’s making a profound point
'evil is just ignorance' -- ' you haven't met any evil people if you believe that'.
I guess Jordan P hasn't read Hannah Arendy's 'Eichmann in Jerusalem'
When I see a JP video I know with absolute certitude he will use the words “post modern” and “hierarchical”
To deny catholicism its write full place in christianity is to miss out on its history however bloody or painful it was. It gives us greater understanding in its evolution towards modern bible reading of evwryday folk.
Jordan is intelligent but also clearly NEEDS an audience: 1. Uni students; 2. Readers; 3. TH-cam; 4. Religious community.
And intellectual debate is having a lively conversation for 3 hours and not moving the topic one inch forward of backwards... Its all about listening to the sound of your own voice.
"Let's answer that question in 10 minutes." 😂
I'd pay to watch a Chopra vs. Peterson debate, two titans of vapidness, between the two of them they are so full of it they could fertilize the Sahara Desert.
Nah. It would be like when the Alexa and the Echo were told to talk to each other.
What is the hardest thing in the universe?
JP's tongue.
He will not acknowledge his ignorance and mistake until the end of the universe.
Every video of Jordan rambling should be under 20 min. I wish he felt the same
It’s tiring to listen to Jordan NOT being capable of answering a question without veering off into six different directions.
There is a long history of people going mad trying to reconcile faith and science.
So sweet - 'you wrote Maps of Meaning' !
6:12 why does he say multiple religious systems then proceed to only name 1?
Yeah i wonder why he doesnt do the same for other religions
Peterson needs to read Mark Twain, “It’s a terrible death to be talked to death.”
if you dont ack reality no one can speak with you
It's interesting how Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, O'Connor etc manage to remain so cool and courteous when being shouted down by the likes of Peterson and Piers Morgan. "If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do." Bertrand Russell
I remember in Peterson's Bible lectures, the old ones. There was a heavy import on Crime and Punishment and Nietzsche's "God is dead" philosophy. He noted that Nietzsche wasn't celebrating the death of religion but rather that we are dependent upon religion for human society, civility, decency, etc. That Nietzsche predicted cults and Nazism, etc, that we would be lost without the structure of organized religion. Now, years later, he's almost trying to argue that we need religion to be good people. It seems like he's playing out some kind of attempt to save humanity from Nietzsche's prediction and from the scenario of Crime and Punishment, which could maybe be classified as a post modern psychologically dystopian novel. Though I've never finished that book nor read or studied Nietzsche
Imagine having less than no spiritual experience knowledge or understanding and still trying to argue against someone else’s prayer. Painful to watch
“We don’t know where anything comes from” start there atheists.
Nothing fails like prayer.
keep in mind, Jordan represents the part of us that actually never wants to resolve something.
Jordan has a great talent for distracting and conveniently changing the subject. But Harris always lets him finish and then says; yeah, ok, but back to my original point….!
Checked out 1:06 very scary thought to be approaching 50 yrs of age and you still don’t know where anything comes from. Approaching the later stage of life and you still don’t know who you are what you are why you are your purpose or where your going?!!! That is very terrifying with love and respect family. Jesus is the way the truth the good life I promise you. You can only experience real love joy peace hope endurance and eternal life through the Father. ❤️
While often associated with nihilism, Nietzsche did not see it as a final state, but rather a transitional period where people would have to confront the lack of objective meaning before actively creating their own values.
Nietzsche criticized what he called "slave morality," (which he associated with Christianity) which he saw as a system of values based on resentment and weakness, further contributing to the sense of meaninglessness.
Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Among philosophers, Friedrich Nietzsche is most often associated with nihilism. For Nietzsche, there is no objective order or structure in the world except what...
Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
I'd like to see JP and Piers Morgan together. Who could out-interrupt whom?
Oh yeah. I got sucked in again to the entertainment program rather than the debate.
Prayer is in intention, a consideration, a postulate, and the universe answers our intentions, considerations, postulates. it just does, for better or worse, call it God, or how the laws of the laws of manifestation in this universe works, but it works. But the universe only reads our unconscious minds, unless we are free of its influence on us. If you feel the need to pray its because the unconscious mind is in control and you don't want it to be. The universe reads our fears, doubts, and grants our wishes.
Is the universe in the room with us right now?
The idea doesn't go away. I can tell you why it doesn't go away. Who would kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It not only supports a multi-billion dollar industry in the US and a Caliphate in Rome, but it also provides a means of control. It helps fund political campaigns and certain political belief systems attempt to lend themselves divinity through it.
Ppl, by and large, need to be told a simple story about life that gives them meaning, purpose, and hope for after death. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They will find one they like, usually the one they are born into, then defend it ferociously the rest of their lives with all kinds of apologetics, archetypal significance, hidden esoteric meanings, and outright denials of logic reason, and reality.
Only accurate statement by peterson: "I don't understand that." Lol
JP is doing monumental work. Most of you will realise it later in life.
What monumental work? Keeping people indoctrinated and clueless to what is real and what is nonsense? He should strive to do better.
Ok. Take someone like Joseph Campbell who understood myth and considered it an essential component of living a life. But Campbell was clear, as I recall, that literal interpretation of religion was not true. So what could Peterson's monumental work be? Obfuscation?
JP is a hypocrite. He preaches discipline, yet is an addict that had to go to Russia and be put into a medical-induced coma to address his addiction.
That’s a comment right from the JP playbook if ever I’ve heard one.
Heavy with personal knowledge. Light on explanation.
Presumably it would take you 40 hours to begin to explain why the work is monumental and never get round to explaining how you know that most people will magically realise it “later in life”.
Will Jesus have returned by this indeterminate future date?
@@johnz8843”monumental” describes the wealth Peterson has amassed by pedalling this absence of clarity.
JP’s pre-reading is always alphabet soup
Why does the so called mediator only question Sam . And not Peterson stupidity
When your Big word salad 🥗 is called out as BS😂
Never argue with fools. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
Mr Harris, it’s your fault 😊
Mr Peterson is of course no fool - as he would put it- by any stretch of the imagination- but you get the gist of it :)